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Should this be at François, Duke of Guise? What are our standards for anglicizing, here? john k 23:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Under Wars of Religion, end of first paragraph - is it meant to be King Henri II instead? The rest of the text seems to imply this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.60.87 ( talk) 04:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( non-admin closure) Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 16:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
– Requesting move of these articles per WP:COMMONNAME. I will begin my argument with ngrams, even though I find them largely overcrowded by noise. Please see [1] [2] [3] [4]
Moving beyond ngrams, my argument revolves around the English literature that focuses on the family, the era of the Italian Wars, and the era French Wars of Religion, both areas of which they played a central role in and are therefore not an incidental mention in.
Stuart Carroll (2011) Martyr's and Murderers: The Guise Family and the Making of Europe, is the most recent English language biography of the family - it refers to the second duke of Guise as François, his son the third duke as Henri and the fifth duke of Guise as Henri II (also the seventh duke of Guise as François-Joseph though that Wikipedia article is already at François-Joseph, so does not require changing.) The other recent English book which discusses them in the title is Mark Konnert's (2006) Local Politics in the French Wars of Religion: The Towns of Champagne, the duc de Guise and the Catholic League (1560-1595) - it refers to François, and Henri.
I will now briefly survey English academics who have written on this area in the last couple of decades, and their various positions on the names. Gould (2006) = François; Roelker (1968) = François, Henri; Knecht (2014) = François, Henri; Diefendorf (1991) = François, Henri; Roberts (2013) = François, Henri; Sutherland (1962) = François, Henri; Tullchin (2012) = François, Henri; Roelker (1996) = François, Henri; Baumgartner (1986) = Henri; Harding (1978) = François, Henri; Heller (2003) = Henri; Potter (1997) = François, Henri; Carroll (2005) = François, Henri; Bernstein (2004) = Henri; Konnert (1997) = François, Henri; Benedict (2003) = François, Henri; Salmon (1979) = François, Henri; Shaw (2019) [only English language survey of the Italian Wars] = François; Pitts (2012) = François, Henri; Neuschel (1989) = François; Kingdon (1967) = François, Henri; Greengrass (1988) = François; Conner (2000) = François, Spangler (2016) = Henri
Tingle (2006) is a little unusual, refers to François, and Henry; likewise Shimizu (1970) refers to Francis, and Henri
Holt (2002) = Francis, Henry, he is the only French Wars of Religion era academic I am aware of who throughout all his works consistently calls them this way.
Wood (2002) never refers to either duke by their first name. sovietblobfish ( talk) 11:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Robertus Pius ( Talk • Contribs) 19:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering ( talk) 00:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Hello all (pinging @ SafariScribe @ Sovietblobfish @ Srnec @ Rosbif73 @ AusLondonder) -- I noticed a confusing discrepancy about the nickname for Francis/Henry. The first paragraph in the Henry I article says, "sometimes called Le Balafré ('Scarface')" (with no reference). But this Francis article says, "The scar would earn him the nickname 'Le Balafré' ('The Scarred One')" (with a reference). I don't think they were both called Scarface.
I did a quick Google search and I found a little support for each:
What do you all think? I think it was Francis because of the reference, and because there is actually a sensible story of him getting serious scars. Cloud atlas ( talk) 04:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 21:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
– This is my second attempt at this move request. The first was closed to no-consensus with a 3 support 2 oppose back in March. I am going to attempt to address some of the criticisms of the move raised in that move request and just more fully flesh out the reason this article should be moved.
As before the grounds for the move are WP:COMMONNAME.
In this ngram you will see a comparison of the relative popularities of Henri de Guise, Henry de Guise, François de Lorraine and Francis de Lorraine [16]
Ngrams are not my favourite method of determining popularity as they tend to be crowded by noise, therefore I will primarily be using google scholar results, restricted to results in English publications since 2000 for a better understanding of the modern usage.
Francis of Guise = 53 results Francis of Lorraine = 199 results Francis de Guise = 7 results Francis de Lorraine = 6 results Francis, Duke of Guise = 98 results Francis, Duke de Guise = 1 result Francis, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis, duc de Guise = 4 results Francis of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 9 results Francis of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Francis of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results Francis de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 1 result Francis de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 1 result Francis de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results
Total for Francis = 379 (give or take, there will be some noise in Francis of Lorraine/Henry of Lorraine and François de Lorraine/Henri de Lorraine due to other people of the same name)
François of Guise = 11 results François of Lorraine = 20 results François de Guise = 230 results François de Lorraine = 210 results François, Duke of Guise = 76 results François, Duke de Guise = 5 results François, duc of Guise = 0 results François, duc de Guise = 83 results François of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 1 results François of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results François of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results François of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 3 results François de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 18 results François de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results François de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results François de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 59 results
Total for François = 716 (same disclaimed as above for Francis). 716 vs 379: a decisive majority of scholarly usage for the name François.
Henry of Guise = 105 results Henry of Lorraine = 52 results Henry de Guise = 31 results Henry de Lorraine = 24 results Henry, Duke of Guise = 115 results Henry, Duke de Guise = 6 results Henry, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry, duc de Guise = 13 results Henry of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 11 results Henry of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 1 result Henry of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 2 results Henry de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 3 results
Total for Henry = 363.
Henri of Guise = 23 results Henri of Lorraine = 21 results Henri de Guise = 225 results Henri de Lorraine = 129 results Henri, Duke of Guise = 64 results Henri, Duke de Guise = 2 results Henri, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri, duc de Guise = 87 results Henri of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 2 results Henri of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henri of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 1 result Henri de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 7 results Henri de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henri de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 27 results
Total for Henri = 588. 588 vs 363 another decisive margin.
The google scholar searches for Henri function as evidence for both Henry/Henri I, and Henry/Henri II, as using the numerals would massively depreciate the numbers returned. In addressing the point raised by Srnec in the prior move, we have a majority in English scholarship for the names François and Henri, we do not have a majority for duc de Guise over duke of Guise for the article title (131 duc vs 209 duke for Henri and 149 duc vs 205 duke for François).
Beyond the statistical evidence in support of its common usage, I would like to also draw on particular scholarship as I did for my first move request. This will be based on English language scholarship covering the periods of the Italian Wars and the French Wars of Religion covering the life span of François and Henri I, I have less specific scholarship examples for Henri II, however he is covered in a couple of these and the statistical evidence.
The first and most important work is the recent (2011) biography of the Guise family 'Martyrs and Murderers: the Guise family and the making of Europe' written by the historian Stuart Carroll. This biography refers to the dukes as follows: François, Henri, Henri. There is also the recent work by the historian Mark Konnert in which they are a title feature (Local Politics in the French Wars of Religion: The Towns of Champagne, the duc de Guise and the Catholic League (1560-1595)) which likewise uses François and Henri.
I will include the survey of academic English literature I included in my first move request, with slight additions for academics I have since become aware of.
Gould [history of the French Wars of Religion in the south of the kingdom] (2006) = François; Roelker [biography of Jeanne d'Albret] (1968) = François, Henri; Knecht [biography of Catherine de' Medici] (2014) = François, Henri; Diefendorf [history of Paris in the prelude to the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre] (1991) = François, Henri; Roberts [history of the peace making efforts during the wars] (2013) = François, Henri; Sutherland [history of the secretaries of state in the era of Catherine] (1962) = François, Henri; Tullchin (2012) = François, Henri;; Baumgartner (1986) = Henri; Harding (1978) = François, Henri; Heller (2003) = Henri; Potter (1997) = François, Henri; Carroll (2005) = François, Henri; Bernstein (2004) = Henri; Konnert (1997) = François, Henri; Benedict (2003) = François, Henri; Salmon [introduction to French sixteenth century history] (1979) = François, Henri; Shaw (2019) [only English language survey of the Italian Wars] = François; Pitts [biography of Henri IV of France] (2012) = François, Henri; Neuschel (1989) = François; Kingdon (1967) = François, Henri; Greengrass (1988) = François; Conner (2000) = François; Spangler [chief historian of the Guise family in the 17th century, i.e. Henri II] (2016) = Henri, Heap (2019) = François, Henri.
Tingle [history of Nantes during the French Wars of Religion] (2006) is a little unusual, refers to François, and Henry; likewise Shimizu [dissertation on Gaspard de Coligny] (1970) refers to Francis, and Henri
Holt [biography of the duc d'Anjou] (2002) = Francis, Henry, he is the only French Wars of Religion era academic I am aware of who throughout all his works consistently calls them this way. Wood [military history of the early French Wars of Religion] (2002) never refers to either duke by their first name
In some of the above I have detailed the nature of the book in square brackets to indicate the mixture of popular biographies, introductory surveys and more focused studies of various institutions and regions that build this picture.
In addition to my common move argument, it is also of note that the article for the seventh duke of Guise is at François Joseph, Duke of Guise so the present state of affairs in addition to violating common usage, also creates a weird discordance in the line of dukes. sovietblobfish ( talk) 15:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
François, Duke of Guise article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
Should this be at François, Duke of Guise? What are our standards for anglicizing, here? john k 23:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Under Wars of Religion, end of first paragraph - is it meant to be King Henri II instead? The rest of the text seems to imply this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.60.87 ( talk) 04:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( non-admin closure) Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 16:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
– Requesting move of these articles per WP:COMMONNAME. I will begin my argument with ngrams, even though I find them largely overcrowded by noise. Please see [1] [2] [3] [4]
Moving beyond ngrams, my argument revolves around the English literature that focuses on the family, the era of the Italian Wars, and the era French Wars of Religion, both areas of which they played a central role in and are therefore not an incidental mention in.
Stuart Carroll (2011) Martyr's and Murderers: The Guise Family and the Making of Europe, is the most recent English language biography of the family - it refers to the second duke of Guise as François, his son the third duke as Henri and the fifth duke of Guise as Henri II (also the seventh duke of Guise as François-Joseph though that Wikipedia article is already at François-Joseph, so does not require changing.) The other recent English book which discusses them in the title is Mark Konnert's (2006) Local Politics in the French Wars of Religion: The Towns of Champagne, the duc de Guise and the Catholic League (1560-1595) - it refers to François, and Henri.
I will now briefly survey English academics who have written on this area in the last couple of decades, and their various positions on the names. Gould (2006) = François; Roelker (1968) = François, Henri; Knecht (2014) = François, Henri; Diefendorf (1991) = François, Henri; Roberts (2013) = François, Henri; Sutherland (1962) = François, Henri; Tullchin (2012) = François, Henri; Roelker (1996) = François, Henri; Baumgartner (1986) = Henri; Harding (1978) = François, Henri; Heller (2003) = Henri; Potter (1997) = François, Henri; Carroll (2005) = François, Henri; Bernstein (2004) = Henri; Konnert (1997) = François, Henri; Benedict (2003) = François, Henri; Salmon (1979) = François, Henri; Shaw (2019) [only English language survey of the Italian Wars] = François; Pitts (2012) = François, Henri; Neuschel (1989) = François; Kingdon (1967) = François, Henri; Greengrass (1988) = François; Conner (2000) = François, Spangler (2016) = Henri
Tingle (2006) is a little unusual, refers to François, and Henry; likewise Shimizu (1970) refers to Francis, and Henri
Holt (2002) = Francis, Henry, he is the only French Wars of Religion era academic I am aware of who throughout all his works consistently calls them this way.
Wood (2002) never refers to either duke by their first name. sovietblobfish ( talk) 11:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Robertus Pius ( Talk • Contribs) 19:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering ( talk) 00:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Hello all (pinging @ SafariScribe @ Sovietblobfish @ Srnec @ Rosbif73 @ AusLondonder) -- I noticed a confusing discrepancy about the nickname for Francis/Henry. The first paragraph in the Henry I article says, "sometimes called Le Balafré ('Scarface')" (with no reference). But this Francis article says, "The scar would earn him the nickname 'Le Balafré' ('The Scarred One')" (with a reference). I don't think they were both called Scarface.
I did a quick Google search and I found a little support for each:
What do you all think? I think it was Francis because of the reference, and because there is actually a sensible story of him getting serious scars. Cloud atlas ( talk) 04:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 21:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
– This is my second attempt at this move request. The first was closed to no-consensus with a 3 support 2 oppose back in March. I am going to attempt to address some of the criticisms of the move raised in that move request and just more fully flesh out the reason this article should be moved.
As before the grounds for the move are WP:COMMONNAME.
In this ngram you will see a comparison of the relative popularities of Henri de Guise, Henry de Guise, François de Lorraine and Francis de Lorraine [16]
Ngrams are not my favourite method of determining popularity as they tend to be crowded by noise, therefore I will primarily be using google scholar results, restricted to results in English publications since 2000 for a better understanding of the modern usage.
Francis of Guise = 53 results Francis of Lorraine = 199 results Francis de Guise = 7 results Francis de Lorraine = 6 results Francis, Duke of Guise = 98 results Francis, Duke de Guise = 1 result Francis, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis, duc de Guise = 4 results Francis of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 9 results Francis of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Francis of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results Francis de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 1 result Francis de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 1 result Francis de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Francis de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results
Total for Francis = 379 (give or take, there will be some noise in Francis of Lorraine/Henry of Lorraine and François de Lorraine/Henri de Lorraine due to other people of the same name)
François of Guise = 11 results François of Lorraine = 20 results François de Guise = 230 results François de Lorraine = 210 results François, Duke of Guise = 76 results François, Duke de Guise = 5 results François, duc of Guise = 0 results François, duc de Guise = 83 results François of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 1 results François of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results François of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results François of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 3 results François de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 18 results François de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results François de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results François de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 59 results
Total for François = 716 (same disclaimed as above for Francis). 716 vs 379: a decisive majority of scholarly usage for the name François.
Henry of Guise = 105 results Henry of Lorraine = 52 results Henry de Guise = 31 results Henry de Lorraine = 24 results Henry, Duke of Guise = 115 results Henry, Duke de Guise = 6 results Henry, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry, duc de Guise = 13 results Henry of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 11 results Henry of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 1 result Henry of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 2 results Henry de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henry de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 3 results
Total for Henry = 363.
Henri of Guise = 23 results Henri of Lorraine = 21 results Henri de Guise = 225 results Henri de Lorraine = 129 results Henri, Duke of Guise = 64 results Henri, Duke de Guise = 2 results Henri, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri, duc de Guise = 87 results Henri of Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 2 results Henri of Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henri of Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri of Lorraine, duc de Guise = 1 result Henri de Lorraine, Duke of Guise = 7 results Henri de Lorraine, Duke de Guise = 0 results Henri de Lorraine, duc of Guise = 0 results Henri de Lorraine, duc de Guise = 27 results
Total for Henri = 588. 588 vs 363 another decisive margin.
The google scholar searches for Henri function as evidence for both Henry/Henri I, and Henry/Henri II, as using the numerals would massively depreciate the numbers returned. In addressing the point raised by Srnec in the prior move, we have a majority in English scholarship for the names François and Henri, we do not have a majority for duc de Guise over duke of Guise for the article title (131 duc vs 209 duke for Henri and 149 duc vs 205 duke for François).
Beyond the statistical evidence in support of its common usage, I would like to also draw on particular scholarship as I did for my first move request. This will be based on English language scholarship covering the periods of the Italian Wars and the French Wars of Religion covering the life span of François and Henri I, I have less specific scholarship examples for Henri II, however he is covered in a couple of these and the statistical evidence.
The first and most important work is the recent (2011) biography of the Guise family 'Martyrs and Murderers: the Guise family and the making of Europe' written by the historian Stuart Carroll. This biography refers to the dukes as follows: François, Henri, Henri. There is also the recent work by the historian Mark Konnert in which they are a title feature (Local Politics in the French Wars of Religion: The Towns of Champagne, the duc de Guise and the Catholic League (1560-1595)) which likewise uses François and Henri.
I will include the survey of academic English literature I included in my first move request, with slight additions for academics I have since become aware of.
Gould [history of the French Wars of Religion in the south of the kingdom] (2006) = François; Roelker [biography of Jeanne d'Albret] (1968) = François, Henri; Knecht [biography of Catherine de' Medici] (2014) = François, Henri; Diefendorf [history of Paris in the prelude to the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre] (1991) = François, Henri; Roberts [history of the peace making efforts during the wars] (2013) = François, Henri; Sutherland [history of the secretaries of state in the era of Catherine] (1962) = François, Henri; Tullchin (2012) = François, Henri;; Baumgartner (1986) = Henri; Harding (1978) = François, Henri; Heller (2003) = Henri; Potter (1997) = François, Henri; Carroll (2005) = François, Henri; Bernstein (2004) = Henri; Konnert (1997) = François, Henri; Benedict (2003) = François, Henri; Salmon [introduction to French sixteenth century history] (1979) = François, Henri; Shaw (2019) [only English language survey of the Italian Wars] = François; Pitts [biography of Henri IV of France] (2012) = François, Henri; Neuschel (1989) = François; Kingdon (1967) = François, Henri; Greengrass (1988) = François; Conner (2000) = François; Spangler [chief historian of the Guise family in the 17th century, i.e. Henri II] (2016) = Henri, Heap (2019) = François, Henri.
Tingle [history of Nantes during the French Wars of Religion] (2006) is a little unusual, refers to François, and Henry; likewise Shimizu [dissertation on Gaspard de Coligny] (1970) refers to Francis, and Henri
Holt [biography of the duc d'Anjou] (2002) = Francis, Henry, he is the only French Wars of Religion era academic I am aware of who throughout all his works consistently calls them this way. Wood [military history of the early French Wars of Religion] (2002) never refers to either duke by their first name
In some of the above I have detailed the nature of the book in square brackets to indicate the mixture of popular biographies, introductory surveys and more focused studies of various institutions and regions that build this picture.
In addition to my common move argument, it is also of note that the article for the seventh duke of Guise is at François Joseph, Duke of Guise so the present state of affairs in addition to violating common usage, also creates a weird discordance in the line of dukes. sovietblobfish ( talk) 15:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)