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Currently his article defines a frame story exclusively as an overarching narrative for a collection of short stories. I think of it as a more general concept of a ('story' or 'stories')-within-a-story, as was covered before the frame story/narrative merge. So this entry would include things like 'Turn of the screw' and 'Heart of Darkness' where the framing narrative serves as an intro and postscript to the main framed story.
Moreover currently Story within a story redirects here! So things like the play-within-the-play in hamlet should be in here. But a google of 'framing narrative' indicates it should be otherwise.
My suggestion would be to resusitate Story within a story and include the current material there plus some historical stuff from previous incarnations.
I'm a newbie so any input would be greatly appreciated. cheers -- harry 14:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I originally added Metamorphoses meaning the Ovid. I know it's borderline, but in the masses of stories branching into other stories, I think there are a few that act as frame tales. Someone changed this to The Golden Ass, figuring it was a disambig issue since Golden Ass is also sometimes known as the Metamorphoses. I just wanted to make sure that Golden Ass really is a frame story (haven't read it), and not just that someone assumed I must have meant Golden Ass because they didn't think the Ovid qualified.
I feel this page should be redirected to Frame Story; it covers more briefly material that is treated there.
The "frame story" is putting into fiction an occurence that was very common indeed in real life: someone, or some people, telling other stories. There is no need for any literary model to explain it.
Assertions that one cultures' frame stories caused another's would need evidence. Goldfritha 17:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you are boosting it so heavily. You provided a reference that one scholar holds this -- what is so horrible about having the article match the reference? You have not provided a reference that this is "accepted by linguistics experts" -- why should that be put in the article? Goldfritha 01:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the prominence given to the theories of Michael E. J. Witzel in this article. They are being listed as the origin of the frame story, and furthermore are listed first on the page. 18:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The theory, as enumerated here, does not contain the origin of the frame story as such. It describes the origin of a specific type of frame story: the fairy tale collection. Calling this the "origin" is much in excess of the references provided. Also, one specific type of collection should not be the opening section. If there is no evidence about where frame stories in general originated, nothing ought to be said about it. (Note that Stbalbach has claimed that I have said that frame stories have no origin. This is obviously false. But that they must have an origin is no evidence that any given claimed origin is true.) Goldfritha 18:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, what is this dispute even about? It may or may not be true that frame tales are as old as storytelling, it just so happens that the earliest examples preserved date to Classical India. The literary influence of the Panchatantra in the West is undisputed. I see no problem at all with the statement as made in the article. Kindly review ancient literature: It just so happens that no instance before the Homer's Odyssey and the Sanskrit Epics is known. dab (𒁳) 10:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In Ovid's Metamorphoses, book X: The story of Orpheus is set up as a frame for the subsequent stories, and during his recitation of the story of Venus and Adonis, that in turn becomes a frame for the story of Hippomenes and Atalanta. The earliest Indian reference is 1st century B.C.E., not far off the mark from Ovid--though the Metamorphoses weren't completed until after his exile in 8 C.E. As for the comment in the lower "origins" section from M a s: "What about Gilgamesh? Or the Oddysey? Or Job? Did the idea of a frame tale happen only in India first and then spread out to the west? Doubt it." The idea of a character within a story relating a related tale is certainly an older idea, and the Oddyssey certainly has its share--but I think the distinction here is of stories that are specifically structured to relate a tale, where the story being related is more important and the story of the storyteller is a structure. (The Odyssey is in one regard a good example, because the nature of the narrator lends a sense of doubt to the story being told, exemplifying one of many reasons why this type of structure might be used. However, it is not structured to relate these stories; rather, the stories support the plot.) It might be more useful to just mention various works where the concept arises (in part or in full), rather than asserting that frame stories "...gradually spread west through the centuries." Beldhyr ( talk) 09:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Seems pretty clear cut to me. Wikipedia's content policy requires all claims to be properly sourced. In this case, User:Stbalbach seems to be confident that Witzel can be cited to support the claim, so they should find the specific citation and add it to the article. If they cannot find a specific citation, the claim should be removed from the article. -- IYY ( talk) 16:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
hi, i'm new to this whole editing thing but i thought you should know, the novel of Princess Bride actually has the dad reading the story to his son not the grandfather to his grandson (as shown in the movie), so maybe that should be specified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.128.32 ( talk) 19:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just a newbie, and might be putting my feet in deep water here, but I found the Origins section very helpful and easy to read, apart from the constantly intrusive 'citation needed' markers. To the general user they are extremely annoying. Is there not a better way to alert users, such as a small disclaimer at the start of the section?
I removed the tags and then checked the discussion board, and realised wht I might have just stepped in. Foolish of me, I am sure. Best wishes. 90.195.115.195 ( talk) 11:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Anatomy" inserted in the opening will be mysterious to most readers, and perhaps is so to most editors, too. I shall delete it there, but perhaps some editor will add a section on "anatomy" as a framing device (not a frame story, after all). Or not.-- Wetman ( talk) 17:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Frame story article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Currently his article defines a frame story exclusively as an overarching narrative for a collection of short stories. I think of it as a more general concept of a ('story' or 'stories')-within-a-story, as was covered before the frame story/narrative merge. So this entry would include things like 'Turn of the screw' and 'Heart of Darkness' where the framing narrative serves as an intro and postscript to the main framed story.
Moreover currently Story within a story redirects here! So things like the play-within-the-play in hamlet should be in here. But a google of 'framing narrative' indicates it should be otherwise.
My suggestion would be to resusitate Story within a story and include the current material there plus some historical stuff from previous incarnations.
I'm a newbie so any input would be greatly appreciated. cheers -- harry 14:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I originally added Metamorphoses meaning the Ovid. I know it's borderline, but in the masses of stories branching into other stories, I think there are a few that act as frame tales. Someone changed this to The Golden Ass, figuring it was a disambig issue since Golden Ass is also sometimes known as the Metamorphoses. I just wanted to make sure that Golden Ass really is a frame story (haven't read it), and not just that someone assumed I must have meant Golden Ass because they didn't think the Ovid qualified.
I feel this page should be redirected to Frame Story; it covers more briefly material that is treated there.
The "frame story" is putting into fiction an occurence that was very common indeed in real life: someone, or some people, telling other stories. There is no need for any literary model to explain it.
Assertions that one cultures' frame stories caused another's would need evidence. Goldfritha 17:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you are boosting it so heavily. You provided a reference that one scholar holds this -- what is so horrible about having the article match the reference? You have not provided a reference that this is "accepted by linguistics experts" -- why should that be put in the article? Goldfritha 01:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the prominence given to the theories of Michael E. J. Witzel in this article. They are being listed as the origin of the frame story, and furthermore are listed first on the page. 18:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The theory, as enumerated here, does not contain the origin of the frame story as such. It describes the origin of a specific type of frame story: the fairy tale collection. Calling this the "origin" is much in excess of the references provided. Also, one specific type of collection should not be the opening section. If there is no evidence about where frame stories in general originated, nothing ought to be said about it. (Note that Stbalbach has claimed that I have said that frame stories have no origin. This is obviously false. But that they must have an origin is no evidence that any given claimed origin is true.) Goldfritha 18:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, what is this dispute even about? It may or may not be true that frame tales are as old as storytelling, it just so happens that the earliest examples preserved date to Classical India. The literary influence of the Panchatantra in the West is undisputed. I see no problem at all with the statement as made in the article. Kindly review ancient literature: It just so happens that no instance before the Homer's Odyssey and the Sanskrit Epics is known. dab (𒁳) 10:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In Ovid's Metamorphoses, book X: The story of Orpheus is set up as a frame for the subsequent stories, and during his recitation of the story of Venus and Adonis, that in turn becomes a frame for the story of Hippomenes and Atalanta. The earliest Indian reference is 1st century B.C.E., not far off the mark from Ovid--though the Metamorphoses weren't completed until after his exile in 8 C.E. As for the comment in the lower "origins" section from M a s: "What about Gilgamesh? Or the Oddysey? Or Job? Did the idea of a frame tale happen only in India first and then spread out to the west? Doubt it." The idea of a character within a story relating a related tale is certainly an older idea, and the Oddyssey certainly has its share--but I think the distinction here is of stories that are specifically structured to relate a tale, where the story being related is more important and the story of the storyteller is a structure. (The Odyssey is in one regard a good example, because the nature of the narrator lends a sense of doubt to the story being told, exemplifying one of many reasons why this type of structure might be used. However, it is not structured to relate these stories; rather, the stories support the plot.) It might be more useful to just mention various works where the concept arises (in part or in full), rather than asserting that frame stories "...gradually spread west through the centuries." Beldhyr ( talk) 09:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Seems pretty clear cut to me. Wikipedia's content policy requires all claims to be properly sourced. In this case, User:Stbalbach seems to be confident that Witzel can be cited to support the claim, so they should find the specific citation and add it to the article. If they cannot find a specific citation, the claim should be removed from the article. -- IYY ( talk) 16:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
hi, i'm new to this whole editing thing but i thought you should know, the novel of Princess Bride actually has the dad reading the story to his son not the grandfather to his grandson (as shown in the movie), so maybe that should be specified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.128.32 ( talk) 19:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just a newbie, and might be putting my feet in deep water here, but I found the Origins section very helpful and easy to read, apart from the constantly intrusive 'citation needed' markers. To the general user they are extremely annoying. Is there not a better way to alert users, such as a small disclaimer at the start of the section?
I removed the tags and then checked the discussion board, and realised wht I might have just stepped in. Foolish of me, I am sure. Best wishes. 90.195.115.195 ( talk) 11:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Anatomy" inserted in the opening will be mysterious to most readers, and perhaps is so to most editors, too. I shall delete it there, but perhaps some editor will add a section on "anatomy" as a framing device (not a frame story, after all). Or not.-- Wetman ( talk) 17:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)