This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I removed the citation to the portal page and kept the second citation to the actual article. Also, someone had deleted portions of the intro and I re-inserted it. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 18:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This is according to you Blaxthose. I can quote a UCLA study from 2005 stating that Fox News is the only network without bias. I can quote Bernie Goldberg Bias book. My point is that the crticism of bias is discussed later in the Fox News entry and should not be in the intro. Ramsquire please calm Blaxthos down. Skypad 21:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
3 points: One I'm not that user, 2 does that mean new editors should not have input, 3 Blaxthos you have had a problem with me from the beggining, please stop. 71.233.211.201 22:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I went into the archive and it's hard to see a consesnsus as the discussion is dominated by a few editors. My point is the sources cited are mostly on the extreme left and to single out Fox News only demonstrated a POV in the intro. Skypad 10:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There are solutions this conflict. Having the reference to bias in the introduction is sketchy. Doing this will put that word into the readers head for the rest of the article. Since many editors want bias to be mentioned in the introduction just let it be. In return bias will need to be mentioned somewhere in the introduction of ALL major news networks. CNN, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, etc... ( OfForByThePeople 18:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
The subject at hand is intriguing. I made that suggestion for the purpose of balance. The introductions for all news media networks is relevant to this discussion. We know that FOX news does sway to the right, and the others sway to the left. Politics and news is a very volatile topic. So for the sake of neutrality we need to support equality across all of wikipedia, especially on issues such as politics. If a consensus, like the one I have recommended above, could be reached then this entire issue would disappear. Any other arguments put forward could then be easily dismissed. So I ask you to support my proposal. If you will not support me then a NPOV can only obtained by removing the mention of bias in the articles introduction. (finding relevant sources which accuse bias amongst CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc. will not be difficult to do, so again I ask you to support my solution, or remove the mention of bias) Thanks for looking out. ( OfForByThePeople 22:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Ultimatums? Or else? Sorry if that is how I came across, but what I said is the truth. Rather than attacking my style of communication please rebute intellectually rather than emotionally; this would be much more productive. A NPOV is much easier to achieve through a cold heart. Thanks for looking out, ( OfForByThePeople 22:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Your summation of the consensus is absolutely incorrect. In fact, all parties to the consensus-building effort agreed that consensus had been reached, save one user who ended up having RfARB action taken against him and who ultimately ceased editing (with that name). So, you're coming in months later and re-interpreting (misrepresenting?) the result of an RfC (that all participants felt was satisfactorally decided)? / Blaxthos 05:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, if you really want a clear picture of what occured, you need to read several megabytes of discussion.
As I've encouraged all along, please read the whole history before starting another war. / Blaxthos 06:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I did cite my source. It is in the exact same article. In fact, that statistical information is in the last couple of paragraphs that leads up to it stating that Fox News has been critisized as being bias. It is right there, this information bears just as much relevance (if not more) than the current version. This is true, please refer to WP:CONSENSUS#Consensus_can_change. Thank you for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 13:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
According to Wikipedia: Precise numbers for "supermajority" are hard to establish, and Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy, so simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate. The information I added is relevant, it shows that the study that claimed bias, is bias itself due to the participants. If that source is going to be cited, all parts of it become relevant. Not just one sentence. Do you have any objection? Aside from just saying 'conensus has been reached' (thank you for being 'curt'...it is more productive) Thank you for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 14:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
If what I put on is Original Research, then so is the original statement. What I put down is in the EXACT SAME article as the original version. Go look at it, it is just a few paragraphs above the disputed statement. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 16:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
Consensus building effort
Editors who participated
Not everyone agreed on every point, but every name you see gave input and issued opinion on what became the final compromise version of the introduction. Every point you have raised was rased, and addressed, in the discussions referenced above. So now, you're saying the work of eighteen named editors and several anonymous contributors is laughable? That is the most serious violation of WP:AGF I've ever seen, and speaks volumes about your credibility on this issue. / Blaxthos 20:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Fortunately, Wikipedia is a community based on consensus -- regardless of how much bias you may believe exists, the community worked together to craft an acceptable introduction. No matter how much of a stink you raise, it is not going to crumble twenty editors' collective effort until you can show that very consensus has changed. The issue isn't bias, the issue is consensus, and I (once again) point out that this is a compromise version. Further discussion is moot at this point. I would most strongly advise you to educate yourself on the past before kicking up a shitstorm, and try to understand what the objection is (as opposed to just repeating the same thing over and over). / Blaxthos 20:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a real problem continuing to assume good faith with you. The title of the section is Talk:Fox_News_Channel/Archive_15#Should_FNC.27s_alleged_conservative_bias_be_mentioned_in_the_article_introduction.3F. How are you unable to see the pages and pages of discussion? It's under the heading Should_FNC's_alleged_conservative_bias_be_mentioned_in_the_article_introduction . Is this somehow convaluded? Did you actually bother to read the archives? If so, how can you possibly claim to have overlooked the massive conversation? / Blaxthos 22:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me just add this. To all of you who feel that the bias opinion should not be in the introduction: I agree. But, what I or you feel is unimportant. It is what the consensus determined. As stated numerous times. The concensus is a) to not mention it in the introduction, since it is one of the factors of Foxnews's notability, would violate NPOV; b) the opinion is held by persons too numerous and diverse to quantify, there it falls into the weasel word exceptions. Do I agree with all of that, no. But the current version is the best compromise we can all reach. Moving it lower into the article was discussed, not giving the bias opinion too much undue weight was discussed, whether there should be sources at all was also discussed. So until there is a showing of a changed consensus, or a new and original argument is raised, I will not argue any more on this. The burden is on the new editors to show that consensus has changed. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 00:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You are correct! What any of us 'feel' is irrelevant. I make every decision every day based on logic, reason, common sense, and available information. My motto is 'feelings do not make facts'. None of my objections are based on 'feelings' it is based on the truth. I want to leave the mention of bias in the intro since it is so 'important' to some. What is fair would also be an edit which I recommended, but was immediately reverted.
No matter how often you repeat your argument, you've had several established editors explaining both the procedural hurdle you need to overcome, as well as why including information about the survey is so important to Fox News that it must be introduced in the first few paragraphs. If *anything* it should be footnoted in the references section at the bottom, but I personally don't see analysis of the survey as necessary in this particular article. / Blaxthos 11:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Please bear with me on this one guys/girls
Gentlemen and/or Ladies (politically correct I think?) First, I am not a 'sockpuppet' in fact I just read what one is. So please do not make incorrect judgements. Also, I have read the archives, and just as Bytebear said above I also did not a consensus from all sides.
I pride myself on coldheartedness when making decisions, but I will turn that off for now. The four of us who have been carrying this on all believe the same thing. That, after considering the matter at hand we are right. I have seen people say they want to walk away from wikipedia (rhyming not intended). These are the same reasons I recently became an editor. You need to understand that I am not trying to push my POV and alienate 'months of work'. I am trying to bring about balance.
What I do appreciate about Auburnpilot, Blaxthos, and Bytebear is the intelligent manner in which each of you present your side, because nothing is more annoying than arguing with an idiot. But I am not an idiot either, and nor am I a 'sockpuppet' or an irrational person. All I want is to help add balance to Wikipedia. Though I am a new editor I am not a new fan of wikipedia. I have enjoyed this product for a long time, and feel it is a wonderful and important tool in society. So for the sake of neutrality I do not see why adding my edit is being so opposed, or supporting the same structure in the intros of Fox competitors is so opposed.
CNN has this in their bias section: CNN has been accused of bias for allegedly promoting a liberal agenda based on previous incidents. It has also been accused of being slanted toward US interests when reporting on world conflicts and wars.[5] Critics such as LA Weekly say it is part of an alleged pro-war news media[1]. CNN denies any bias.
But they do not have it in their intro, and I am not trying to nitpick or argue based on another article. What I am doing is pointing out that there is a lack of balance on Wikipedia, and believe the structure of FOX and its respective competitors is important for the sake of NPOV. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 15:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC))
I do not want to discuss the format of CNN. I think it is just fine, and (as i stated previously) am glad that this discrepency only appears one time. So CNN aside, the statement and stance I took earlier (in reference to my suggested addition to the intro) I have not heard a solid argument against it yet. So I say again what I said before, This information is relevant to the statement in question, and should not be censored. Reverting my recommended edit suggests a blatant attempt to insert POV w/no intentions of allowing balance. I do not understand why it is wrong to use information that pertains to the topic at hand which is from the same source as the topic at had. Unlike the truth, emotions lie. Thank you for looking out. ( OfForByThePeople 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC))
As a moderate who happened to just walk by this discussion, I don't think it is appropriate to have the conservative bias stuff in the lead. It should be in the controversies section. CNN does not have anything like that written even though Ted Turner is "a socialist at heart" and has donated plenty to leftist organizations. -- Shamir1 23:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is evidence that an editor is using sock puppets to attempt and influence this issue and to make it appear that concensus has changed. Please be thorough in evaluating such claims when determining consensus. |
How can a new consensus be done? It seems that there enough editors who dispute the bias to revisit it. Hapkdo 21:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
STOP SOCKPUPPETRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE DAMAGING RELEVANT ARGUMENTS AND CHANCES OF ACHIEVING NEUTRALITY!!!!!!!! Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference between a sock puppet and someone who is censored. The fact is that certain administrators and editors block soneone if they don't like their facts. There is enough consensus to open the bias conversation. Yamlak 19:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
NOTE---- Read the above. User:AuburnPilot, User:Blaxthos, and I do not agree on what is the right thing to do with this article. ...YET amazingly you don't see me being blocked. Don't use multiple accounts to achieve your goals. Plain and Simple
If an editor blocks you as a 'sock puppet' without any proof backing it up than file a complaint, prove it, then go have a 'Coke and a Smile' :-) Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Side note: Everytime an editor comes here knowing they are in a position which could warrant blocking you damage peoples efforts. Every time an editor is blocked here as a sockpuppet or impersonator you undermine efforts like mine, and legitimize the misquided good-faith efforts of others Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As a side issue from much of the above discussion, I feel that the sentence 'In the opinion of Ken Auletta of The New Yorker, it was to counter a news media that Murdoch believed was predominantly liberal.' in the history section could be misleading. Whilst the use of the term 'liberal' to indicate a perceived anti-conservative political leaning is commonplace in popular American parlance, this is actually at odds with both the historical meaning of the word, its dictionary definition, the manner in which it is used in academic texts, and the meaning that it holds for many English-speaking people outside of North America (cf. American Liberalism). As such, I would argue for the use of an alternative term or some qualification of the current usage to be provided in the article, possibly as an endnote. This is actually a pretty general gripe that could be extended to a number of other articles and, indeed, the few other usages of the term in this article itself. I just think that the unqualified use of a term that is relatively recent in prominence, often stigmatised, and potentially misleading should be avoided. Benwilson528 23:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Mr. Benwilson528 for the same purpose. When the reader ends the first paragraph on a 'liberal bias' note, and starts the following paragraph on a 'liberal bias' note NPOV goes out the window. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 17:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC))
Hello. My statement was not an interpretaion of Mr. Benwilson528. I was agreeing with him and then adding my view. Sorry for not clarifying this. It would be best to move both statements to other sections to acheive NPOV, but I am having a good week so lets save that one for later. Have a good day! Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 19:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC))
Does the paragraph about the show 24 really need to be in the intro section? I think we should move it, but I am reluctant to create a trivia or 'in popular culture' section. thoughts? - Taco325i 14:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the recent Obama hoax broadcasted by Fox News, later debunked by CNN, be included on this the controversy section? It strikes at their journalistic integrity which is fairly important topic. -- Voidvector 09:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
ok Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 06:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The ratings section has a number of vague statements and non verified claims and it possibly contradicts itself.
The first claim is not sourced and just flat out says that fox is number one in the cable market. I have heard otherwise personally but can't find any good data on the subject. (I've also heard that 9 out of 10 dentists prefer Crest toothpaste).
Also the claim, In July 2006, Fox had the 55 top rated episode telecasts on cable news. The first non-Fox show to appear on the list was number 56, Larry King Live. is a little hard to swallow. It has a reference to some random excel spreadsheet that doesn't say a lot about the claim except that its says "TOP NEWSCASTS".
I'm thinking it would be good to clean that up and find some verifiable/accurate references or go an head remove the claims. ZacBowling 01:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Good afternoon, good day, or good evening. I have just started looking at the new sources and additons to the article so am unsure as to their relevance. Regardless of what I find once I delve into this more deeply, are their any other suggestions as a substitute to the word "unique" it seems to be a weasel word. Unique? Compared to what? What is un-unique? What people are defined as un-ique? What people are defined as unique? etc etc etc. Suggestions anyone? Thanks for looking out!( OfForByThePeople 22:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC))
Okay. That definition places all viewers under the term. So there is no distinction between the viewers of CNN and/or the viewers of FOX. So, therefore you can't describe CNN viewers as 'unique' because the term as your link described draws no distinction between the two. A term like 'total' or 'gross' viewers just seems more appropriate. Thank you for looking out!!! ( OfForByThePeople 03:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
This interaction is so much more pleasant than previous. Thank you for assuming 'good faith'. Despite my suspicion as to whether matters concerning another network (CNN) bears any relevance to this article...I am not trying to find a problem, if so I would be trying to remove the entire quote. As of yet I have not found any reason to dispute this (aside whether it should be here at all). Mr. Blaxthos your interpretation is excellent, and seems much more appropriate for the article. Anyway look here [ [6]] Unique indicates special characteristics. So what makes CNN viewers unique? Why talk about CNN in a FOX NEWS article? It should probably be moved to the FOX Controversies article. Thank you for looking out!!!( OfForByThePeople 04:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
Would there be any objection to stating (as the article says) that CNN has the most viewers, where as FOX NEWS has a higher retention rate. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 06:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
well its interesting that FOX is controlled by a Chinese-Australian couple since 1999 (or slightly before when they started their affair)...yet i wonder...the other networks and news platforms could really hit at Wendi Dengs and Murdochs market share if they were able to get the message out that FOX is owned by a chinese-australian couple...if they saw that FOX was potentially half controlled by a young Chinese woman (perhaps she has more sway than even this over the far far older Murdoch)...if the typical FOX news viewer was presented with this fact (which i doubt if hardly any actually know)...we could end up seeing a radical market share adjustment...with FOX and its support of Bush & the iraq war...then this chinese involvement in FOX that dates pre 2000 election...the american public might even get rather upset that they have not been seeing the true picture...the other platforms could really hit at FOX's market share if they played it well...they need some hard hitting aggressive marketting people to take advantage of this situation...to bring the entire american population to the awareness that its an aussie-chinese couple that owns FOX wouldnt be too hard...they could really play up the current battle over the inheritance to bring it to public awareness...and ironically its FOX viewers themselves that are the ones that would most be shocked and angred over Chinese control over american propaganda outlets...isnt it a silly world... Benjiwolf 14:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
if i was one of the other networks...i would start an "NBC dateline expose" type show devoted half to FOX news, rupert murdoch, and wendi deng, and the current inheritance battle with the other children...put it inside a show about lisa nowak (have lisas part the second part as the hook)...booom..."nuclear marketting and market share grab tactic"...if several of the netwoks and CNN did it and spread it out some, FOX would have a hard time simultaneously countering all of them with some sensational high-ratings show of their own... Benjiwolf 14:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
shes born and raised in China, man...shes a chinese citizen for all intents and purposes...shes even spent the majority of her years in China, the fact that one of americas main propaganda/news outlets is owned by a chinese-australian couple is big big news...they may have successfully attempted to get american citizenship too so they could maintain control within US law, yet its all true man...and its not about ethnicity...its about what country are these owners really beholden to?...and marry who you want please please...yet when u start to control a vast portion of the media outlets then its time to scrutinize...& definitely past citizenships... Benjiwolf 16:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
and...this is no country bumpkin news station they own...this chinese-australian couple own the largest, most vast media empire, ever in the history of the world, including FOX news...the fact that their original (might i add true) citizenships are chinese and australian and the fact that they are australian-chinese in ethnic makeup allows me to always describe them as a "chinese-australian" couple if i wish...(of course you could argue murdoch is british, and not australian aboriginal in ethnic makeup, yet when i call someone australian in ethnic makeup it realizes this...id say australian aboriginal if i meant the other)...anyways its not about ethnicity...its about their citizenships, why they got new ones, and just who are they really...does wendi deng now have ami citizenship?...chinese too still?...totally ami citizenship now???...whats her INS status???... Benjiwolf 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
go to wikipedias page on Wendi Deng...most of my info is from there...go to ruperts page...info for him is from there...and this is all open source info...its all over hundreds of internet sites... Benjiwolf 18:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways...yes... ill make it one of my new pet projects...extensive referencing this fact about FOX news that is well hidden, that in fact its a chinese australian couple that own them...ur going to see a bunch of info about this on this page...im just getting started...ive seen many articles on this...including some talking about her true level of control in News Corporation...yet for now everything on the page is factual as far as i have seen...its just been hidden till now... Benjiwolf 18:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways as to citizenship and not ethnics thats most important...i come to the article in that attitude...and with the fact that wendi deng was & is (ive never seen anything saying she isnt still) a full chinese...yet as to me personally...the pass paperwork means little to me...my loyalty is to my ethnic group first...(& im a bit of a mutt)...then the pass and paperwork comes into it after this...citizenship???...what is that...its a piece of paper...im a citizen of earth...these arbitrary boundaries???...for now they are practical till things are worked out between the various ethnic groups that control the various territories...someday theyll be gone...for the super rich like murdoch and wendi deng they already are...currently its a boundaryless world for the elite...& u can even be full chinese born and bred, with papers from them, and rule over FOX news in america...its the masses that have the boundaries...wendi deng can go where-ever she wants on this globe instantly...is she still chinese?..american now???...who cares...most people cant go anywhere they want...and she'll always be chinese...she cant change it...only the paperwork...yet she should be proud of the fact that she is a Chinese...and the Chinese will be proud of the fact that its a Chinese-Australian couple that own FOX news...really really proud...they must be laughing... Benjiwolf 18:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You are right, and I was out of line. Thanks for checking my ego. But blatant/ridiculous rants like that go so far beyond incredulous that other 'feelings' !!:-)!! come about. AGF is hard to take on AFTER being told multiple times where they are mistaken. I didnt start to laugh until i saw your initial responses...followed by more "misguidance" in proposals. Any way I dont need to try and qualify. Have a good one!
Any way I was out of line...So now I will go have a 'Coke and a Smile' Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i think y'all are missing the point...actually a vast sum of FOX news profits could head staight to mainland china if she were to split with him, or else if he dies...and actually a vast amount of FOX news profits will head to the two half chinese kids no matter what, they may wish to live in China or the US...its hard to say, i think the Chinese government would wish them to live in the US for several reasons the chinese government would have...as to the control over the company...well thats being worked out in the courts as we speak...its not a conspiracy theory man...its reality...wellcome to FOX news and News Corporation...go ahead...search around...ur going to find that the couple that runs News Corporation: Rupert Murdoch and Wendi Deng..is a chinese-australian couple...and its one of the most incredible yet true stories of our time...have fun!!! heres another pic of rupert & wendi if you still dont believe it [7]...yet you can find them on any major news source, not just american ones...its no conspiracy (or have i somehow managed to control the entire world wide web???)...yet go ahead and remain in denial!...its a tough one to swallow for the FOX news fans isnt it!!!...ha ha!...take a few aspirin and think of something else for the next week or two...and remember...everytime u tune in to FOX...your adding pennies to the Chinese coffers!!!...ha ha!...oh its great to know the FOX news fans were so easily duped by the Chinese!!!...its great!!!... Benjiwolf 12:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: and FOX knew it would be a hard pill to swallow too, thats why they didnt even mention it until 2006 seven years later!...ha ha!!!...actual news souces reported on this long ago...FOX is a tabloid, Murdoch always was a tabloid owner, and of course hes not going to report on this story in his own tabloids...it sensational yes, yet runs quite counter to how he wants to present himself and his tabloids like FOX news...or...or...and this of course is speculation and i think my first thoughts most likely...yet there is a very very tiny chance he was always china-red and just was waiting to use his own story to flip the tables on y'all and totally discredit FOX as tied to the chinese even!!!...he could be a liberal mastermind genius!...maybe hes kept FOX over the top for a reason...i dont know really...ud have to ask him i suppose... Benjiwolf 14:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways all i can say at this moment is..."cheers!!!" mr murdoch!...your story and wendis is so sensational it almost beats em all!!!...what a couple...what a coup!...the chinese and FOX news!!!...ha ha!!!...all the way back in 1999 even!!!... Benjiwolf 14:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i havent made any statements about this affecting FOX news except for what documents say...i havnt made any conspiracy claims...this is all true, they are married, she is full chinese, there is an inheritance battle, as she is full chinese and has control over this media empire then that means chinese have control over it...and the two kids are half chinese and inherit vast profit from FOX this is fact, the issues over controlling shares are unresolved which i clearly state...this is not conspiracy...im not saying FOX news is out to control the world...im not saying anything like that...im stating the owners of FOX, who they are, what citizenships they have...and the inheritance issues... Benjiwolf 17:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i am referencing this...even with FOX news sources...and i am going to further detail all of this with many many references...your not going to keep it out...you cant silence the facts...i already have a dozen references yet i can get hundreds people...this is all public information...its just FOX itself that hasnt been reporting on it until 2006... Benjiwolf 17:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
my additions are totally legitimate...this is the owning couple of FOX news...talking about FOXs owners, control and profit isssues, and inheritance issues is fully legit using public sources i have begun to cite, including FOX, new york times, australian papers, ill put in the washington post picture if u need...face it...this is true, public information, and totally relevant...these are the owners of FOX and they have the controlling interest...FOX is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and Wendi Deng...they have then delegated themselves down the line from there...if FOX is going to broadcast something they dont like...they can stop it...simple as that...and i can find u plenty of articles that show rupert has indeed done such things as determine actual content...yet i havnt put anything on the page yet...i have so far just been talking about controlling interest, and monetary profit, and inheritance issues to see who gets the control over FOX and who will profit... Benjiwolf 17:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Dude, you are a riot, but the problem is you are providing no credible sources...Plus No One is denying that Murdoch is of Australian discent, and Wendi is of Chinese discent...The problem is that no-body cares...guess what? every American is a descendent of another country...nobody cares. The Governor of California is Austrian...nobody cares. My dog is a German Sheppard...nobody cares. Pizza came from Italy...nobody cares. My TV came from Japan...nobody cares. Respectfully stop this nonsense. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 01:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I provided a dozen credible sources including FOX news themselves, i was blocked before i was going to add yet another major newspaper source as to the 100 million dollar profit shares being handed to the two kids, that could even be chinese citizens if they wished, and that will clearly be at least half loyal to the people of China...the governor of california is from a closely allied country to the US, not from China, plus he has considerably less power than a media mogul couple such as murdoch & wendi deng, in fact without their support he couldnt have been elected, he cant run for president as he was originally a foreigner, if he could he would need rupert murdoch and wendi deng to support him to win, and even if he won and was the american president i question whether he would have more power than wendi deng & rupert murdochs global media empire. The bottom line is the Chinese wont allow americans to control their propaganda, they are not so foolish, the americans allowed chinese into their most powerful mass-media empire. That is questionable considering the stance america takes towards china and vice versa...yet i have taken no side on this really, just documented it mainly, and remorked that it is ironic in some ways it was FOX news they got into back in 1999, yet this is my last breath on the issue, and one of my last breaths on wikipedia, the wikipedia character benjiwolf has been slain...these are the last breaths of a ghost...
a totally different character has risen in his place: "Silence of the Wolves", he has already tried to edit this page once, and will continue, yall took care of removing the mention of wendi deng and china for him from the article, if anyone adds this information to the article, he will remove it, now he wishes to remove this discussion of it from public view as well, he does not contribute to english version wikipedia much, mainly adding material to non-english wikipedia, and wishes this entire discussion and all mention of China and FOX be removed from american & australian versions of wikipedia at least, justifying it as removing a POV rant, benji wolf was a neutralist character...this new creature "silence of the wolves" is decidedly hard right and wishes the media to fall into fewer and fewer hands, at least in certain countries, & it doesnt matter who they are that controls it, chinese or not, the fewer the better. In addition there is much material & information he wishes to add, yet not to the view of american or australian users, he is hard right, he believes in excluvisity, and yall have been excluded...some fall into the exclusive group, even some entire countries, and they will receive the full accurate information about things...the ghost of- Benjiwolf 18:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
he is thru!...and now i again propose this entire discussion about FOX and China be removed...this is a POV rant "benjiwolf" has engaged in, it should all be erased!...i again reinstate my argument this was a POV rant, & it is against wikipedia policy to soapbox on wikipedia, benjiwolf has engaged in soapboxing...it should be removed from display... Silence-of-the-Wolves 18:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think its been mentioned...one wikipedia character has been retired, after publicly announced retirement there were just a couple comments on talk pages to respond to, no article pages were edited after the retirement, yet since u are concerned with "sock puppeting", then i propose we erase everything "benjiwolf" has contributed to this talk page. So is it OK?...Im going to erase on next edit since you seem to be concerned, indeed i already tried and it was blocked...while i had proposed that a POV rant justified an erasure, your "sock-puppeting" charge provides yet another justification and makes it easier...it sounds like you support erasure auburnpilot??...and this solves your sock-puppeting concerns quite simply doesnt it...and you helped kill the character off, it had a dozen valid references to back up its edits on the article page, yet was blocked, and theres no bringing it back, that character is dead, so whats the complaint here?...lets erase those POV rants, and it eliminates any sock puppet problems on the page too, youve got a radically different editor in this character, it agrees with you completely, is in full agreement about the block of "benjiwolf", is in full agreement about removing its edits from the article, and now is in full agreement that those were POV rants on the talk pages, and the charge of sock-puppeting cements a decision to erase, so lets erase... Silence-of-the-Wolves 00:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think your powerless...that character is gone, this one is actually on your side, and you will find you have a highly effective editor on that side, wikipedia regulations are being followed, and there isnt any attempt to weaken this side, only to strengthen it...plus there was never an attempt to hide the connections, the new name chosen was similar...its a legitimate switch to the other side, sort of to a different wiki-nationality of sorts actually, anyways several editors ganged up, and you successfully slew the character, (you can consider that you convinced it of your reasonings and thereby slew it), this new character is 100% in agreement with yall, yet the name has to change, it really is a totally different editor for all intents and purposes, anyways you achieved agreement: the chinese stuff shouldnt have been included, so lets also remove it from the talk pages...yall gained a convert, what exactly is the complaint?... Silence-of-the-Wolves 00:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
This obsession with Anna Nicole Smith since her death, I believe has bordered on overkill for the last week with all the networks; but it's especially bad on Fox News. Does anyone think this could be considered a controversy? WAVY 10 15:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
You know what....I'm not even going to say the truth...lets find some more spiffy wiki words oh yeah... NPOV Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate having the article revised as follows (bold and italics enclose the proposed changes):
The channel was created by Australian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Like other news sources ( ABC, CBS, NBC), Fox News has been criticized as advocating political positions, although it is seen as aligned with conservative politics rather than liberal positions; [1] the channel denies allegations of bias in their news reporting.
Lynn 23:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC) I checked on the articles for ABC, CBS, and NBC. None of them had such a criticism within the opening paragraphs. There was mention in the CNN article about being criticized for both conservative and liberal bias.
FNN is hardly unique in being criticized for political bias. ABC, CBS, and NBC have had several best selling books written about their alleged bias. (see "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg)
A reader who did a quick read of the four articles would get the impression that FNN is less professional than ABC, CBS, or NBC.
I will check back on this discussion before doing any revisions.—Preceding unsigned comment added by L d allan ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 6 March 2007
Blaxthos, I am disagreeing with you. This has been discussed to death w/out any disapproving that this article is meant to make FNN look unpofessional, and I am going to support this. Who=ever this new user is that has brought up this again...good and please I do encourage him to go read the previous intro discussion, and there is proper opposition for change Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 08:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You might be forgetting this conversation earlier in this talk section
That discussion and changes conderned changing the article when comparing to CNN, so if what happens w/ other news media outlets is unimportant,,,than why was this agreed with so quickly and allowed to change....after all since when two two editors agreeing create a consensus or change???? I find it somewhat offensive to see such quick agreement and change over this, when my simple recommendations considering the change of one word are met with such extreme opposition. again what happens at CNN holds no relevance here, Right? Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 16:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Blaxthos I am sorry if I got you in a tuffle, but that was not my attention, again I admire your conviction as I hope you do mine. I am also sorry that this has gone on for over half of a year. But come on, it is still open for discussion I believe you have the time to respond to my most humble replies..so the matter is not closed it is still under conversation...bear with me on this. Also I am sorry that so many loser, cry-baby sockpuppets have come in here. as you know I am simply an editor trying to do what I see as right, and you should be able to understand this. But what a sockpuppet says has nothing to do with me. I am a separate entity so do not lump me into that category. With all due respect for your great Wiki contributions Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, under Wiki guidelines no topic is ever closed for discussion, so as long as I am here this is open-ended. I much appreciate your Wiki contributions as a great editor who will probably be an admin. someday, but I have asked you nicely to discuss this without hostility. or outside of this forum through e-mail. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Side note! I have complimented you and your contributions, and have shown no disprespect, so I expect the same Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 05:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, I will review all past recommendations, but so far the ONLY editors to try and 're-explain' have been Blaxthos and Chris. SO I dont seem to be upsetting all these other editors you speak of. But I agree with you and will review to see if there is cause to perhaps re-open discussion for change. Thank you for your patience with me (a new editor). But Please stop lumping me in the same category as these sockpuppets that is what I find to be disrespectful. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 12:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Blaxthos, we know your position on this issue. We cannot, however, after months still accept your comments in new and consistent discussions that arise. I am asking you, respectfully, to remove yourself from any and further discussions about the subject of percieved "bias" of the network in this article; consensus can change, and you are not an authority to submit to when users are editing Wikipedia. Especially on controversial subjects such as this, we are expected to hold differing opinions. However, disallowing any such change for months without a significant reasoning is a sign of undeclared authority; Wikipedia is open for this reason. Now, the report that is used as a source specifically states that 69% of national media (let's not forget, these may be competitors) respondants to the survey identified FNC as a "conservative news organization." The current version of the opening states:
“ | Fox News has been criticized as advocating conservative political positions | ” |
This is not detailed enough. The NPOV policy makes it as clear as possible that when there are details to express about a controversial opinion being added in an article, be sure to include all details known to "excuse" Wikipedia from allegations of contributing or "passing on" any bias. Quite honestly, the opening statement is in a grey area for the NPOV policy right now; it surely does not pass the WP:VERIFY policy, however. There is no criticism of FNC of being a percieved "conservative news organization" in the source, just a statement that the national media who responded to the specific study identified FNC as a "conservative news organization." Editing it to conform to these policies is the only thing that should be discussed right now; if we cannot come to a conclusion shortly, expect this article to be tagged appropriately. -- Mrmiscellanious 03:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Reading through the history section, it seems that it might be worth it to see if we can revise the first paragraph in the History section back to the previous editions which focused more on the actual introduction, not the perceived bias which has followed the introduction of the network. Additionally, it seems it might be worth it to expand upon the network's slow rise into the top of the ratings, though that might have already been covered in the Ratings section of the page. Chris ( Talk) ( Contribs) 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
She is a new contributor to the channel. -Amit, 03/10/07
Since when did Wikipedians begin to state the ethnic backgrounds of United States Citizens? I have spent very little time on Wikipedia over the past week...so did I miss something here? Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a simple question, it appears tht you are 'looking for ways to find problems' Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking this b/c the last time I heard mention of Roger Ailes, was, when the Chinese conspiracy theory editor came on-board. So I was wondering if there was actually a compromise w/ such a "character" Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Judging from the elaborate attention to "detail" contained in his comments...He is most likely a 'true believer'. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this statement:
Is there a better source available? (That's a mostly rhetorical question, I'm pretty sure there is). I went to the cited source, and the closest thing I found is the paragraph around this statement:
All this says to me is that a lot of journalists think Fox News is conservative. It seems like too narrow a group to support the broad statement in the intro, and it doesn't even explicitly criticize Fox News for said bias. As it stands now, it seems like the opening statement is a little weaselly. I think this would be much improved by just finding a reliable source out there that simply says "Fox News has been criticized for being conservative", or even "Fox News is biased and here's why...". Can anyone help me find a good one? Cogswobble 17:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I strongly object, as this was both explained and covered in previous RfC's. The only requirement in such a claim in the intro is verifiability, which occurs later in the article. Elevating any sources gives them undue weight, and WP:LEAD specifically states only a brief overview is prudent. / Blaxthos 17:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I am considering working on a template or talkspace box to be placed at the top of the page with an attention grabbing graphic and something alone the lines of This article is the subject of much controversy and has been crafted by way of WP:CONSENSUS. The following are topics often of concern to editors not familiar with this article (click for explaination):' Followed by explainations of the intro wording, the bias sources, any other issue we seem to be covering every seven days for johnny-come-lately's. Anyone want to help me with that (both in terms of constructing the template/box, and formulating accurate/acceptable explainations of any controversies)?
/ Blaxthos 16:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
After having given explainations for most of the often asked queries (at least a dozen times each) I have a basic idea of how to address those issues (incorporating Ramsquire's summary). I don't think I'll be "all over" this one (real life sometimes interjects), but maybe I can get something together in a week or two. I have zero experience coding templates. Appreciate the help. I'll update when things have moved forward some. / Blaxthos 20:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
After seeing this:
http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/fox-legislatingdefeat.jpg
I think it is time to lable Foxnews propaganda.
Mayorcheese 03:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
What would Fox have to do before it could be labled as Propaganda? Mayorcheese 04:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Would a news anchor on CNN qualify as a reliable source?
Mayorcheese 05:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, after reading much of the last few archives, I'm not really interested in getting into a fight here, I'd rather spend time on things care a little more about.
I will say that after reading the archives, as you've suggested, I find it striking that the primary objections to any changes that various editors have suggested to this area have consistently fallen along the lines of "This has already been decided by consensus, please read the archives."
What's striking is that the handful of editors that have taken that advice (including myself) have disagreed that consensus has been reached.
e.g. - Bytebear "it seems to me that you are trying to sway any arguements your way by claiming there was a consensus. Clearly there was not.""
When I first visited the page, I didn't think much of the intro other than think that the sources could be improved. Ironically, after reading the archives, I'd be more inclined to remove the bias statement than leave it in.
And yet editors here are planning on applying a template to this page to imply that consensus has been reached, and therefore new editors shouldn't bother discussing changes. I don't mean to imply that if some editors here feel strongly that something should (or shouldn't be included) that they shouldn't be willing to vigorously patrol the page and engage editors in discussion. I just don't think that they should be trying to end discussion abruptly by insisting that consensus has been reached. Cogswobble 17:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, to "be more inclined to remove the bias statement than leave it in," you'd be more wrong than right. The introduction, or lead, should be "capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article," while also "briefly describing its notable controversies". If anything, the intro needs to be expanded. While a source is not required, as this is an overview of a topic addressed later in the article, one was provided to address the concerns of weasel words. Personally, I don't object to additional sources so long as the wording (which was the main focus of this discussion, which started in Oct. '06) stays the same. But, I bow to consensus and a great deal of work was put into the current version. - auburnpilot talk 18:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the deal. This is the talk page for discussing changes to the article's topic. It is not the place to discuss involved editors' actions during that discussion. The change has been made, the citation was added, and unless there is something more to add, it's time to move on. Otherwise, take it to the individual editor's talk page. - auburnpilot talk 01:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There is a current movement from several editors to remove the language in the intro section of this article that speaks to the bias of the channel. The argument that there are more sources "out there" that speak to the alleged bias of this channel, is purely relative and carries no weight. I have introduced this new section to re-visit this issue, in an attempt to organize the objective effort to either change the intro, or leave it. I realize this has been addressed in the past, however nothing says we can't address it again as new editors come into the mix. Wikiport ( talk) 19:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
[sic]
. No useful contributions have been made by this account. None are likely in the future." //
Blaxthos (
t /
c ) 21:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Do I detect some acrimony here? It's curious how often a fine fellow such as Blaxthos, certainly an exemplary Wikipedian, utterly well versed in its etiquette, seems to get into bitter disputes with novitiates. I wonder why. Oh well, on to substance. In and of itself the statement that says "Some critics and some observers ..." is true enough and relatively innocuous. Obviously, some critics and observers say this. Technically, it violates WP:OR and WP:Weasel as do literally millions of statements in Wikipedia but some latitude is usually extended to introductions. The problem comes with the unwillingness of some editors to even try to be consistent in politically contentious articles. For example, MSNBC's prime time lineup is now vastly more biased than Fox News's prime time lineup has ever been. It is, in fact, an utter "closed shop" between 8:00 and 11:00 P.M., with Olbermann, in particular, becoming a parody of himself. The fact has been observed by relatively neutral commentators such as the L.A. Times's Howard Rosenberg and ABC's Howard Kurtz. No peer reviewed studies are needed to assess "The Bush administration's fifty running scandals" or "McCain in the membrane". Yet the same editors who insist on retaining the statement about Fox's alleged bias in the article's intro regularly block any similar introductory mention of assertions of bias regarding MSNBC. Typically, they point to Wikipedian "principles" which they violate themselves when it suits their purposes. WP: OTHERSTUFF is one them. Here, of course, they tend to ignore their roles in creating that "other stuff". In short, the statement under discussion in the Fox article would be fine if a similar statement in the MSNBC's article's intro were also fine. Otherwise, leave them out of both. Badmintonhist ( talk) 23:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I removed the citation to the portal page and kept the second citation to the actual article. Also, someone had deleted portions of the intro and I re-inserted it. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 18:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This is according to you Blaxthose. I can quote a UCLA study from 2005 stating that Fox News is the only network without bias. I can quote Bernie Goldberg Bias book. My point is that the crticism of bias is discussed later in the Fox News entry and should not be in the intro. Ramsquire please calm Blaxthos down. Skypad 21:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
3 points: One I'm not that user, 2 does that mean new editors should not have input, 3 Blaxthos you have had a problem with me from the beggining, please stop. 71.233.211.201 22:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I went into the archive and it's hard to see a consesnsus as the discussion is dominated by a few editors. My point is the sources cited are mostly on the extreme left and to single out Fox News only demonstrated a POV in the intro. Skypad 10:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There are solutions this conflict. Having the reference to bias in the introduction is sketchy. Doing this will put that word into the readers head for the rest of the article. Since many editors want bias to be mentioned in the introduction just let it be. In return bias will need to be mentioned somewhere in the introduction of ALL major news networks. CNN, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, etc... ( OfForByThePeople 18:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
The subject at hand is intriguing. I made that suggestion for the purpose of balance. The introductions for all news media networks is relevant to this discussion. We know that FOX news does sway to the right, and the others sway to the left. Politics and news is a very volatile topic. So for the sake of neutrality we need to support equality across all of wikipedia, especially on issues such as politics. If a consensus, like the one I have recommended above, could be reached then this entire issue would disappear. Any other arguments put forward could then be easily dismissed. So I ask you to support my proposal. If you will not support me then a NPOV can only obtained by removing the mention of bias in the articles introduction. (finding relevant sources which accuse bias amongst CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc. will not be difficult to do, so again I ask you to support my solution, or remove the mention of bias) Thanks for looking out. ( OfForByThePeople 22:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Ultimatums? Or else? Sorry if that is how I came across, but what I said is the truth. Rather than attacking my style of communication please rebute intellectually rather than emotionally; this would be much more productive. A NPOV is much easier to achieve through a cold heart. Thanks for looking out, ( OfForByThePeople 22:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Your summation of the consensus is absolutely incorrect. In fact, all parties to the consensus-building effort agreed that consensus had been reached, save one user who ended up having RfARB action taken against him and who ultimately ceased editing (with that name). So, you're coming in months later and re-interpreting (misrepresenting?) the result of an RfC (that all participants felt was satisfactorally decided)? / Blaxthos 05:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, if you really want a clear picture of what occured, you need to read several megabytes of discussion.
As I've encouraged all along, please read the whole history before starting another war. / Blaxthos 06:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I did cite my source. It is in the exact same article. In fact, that statistical information is in the last couple of paragraphs that leads up to it stating that Fox News has been critisized as being bias. It is right there, this information bears just as much relevance (if not more) than the current version. This is true, please refer to WP:CONSENSUS#Consensus_can_change. Thank you for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 13:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
According to Wikipedia: Precise numbers for "supermajority" are hard to establish, and Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy, so simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate. The information I added is relevant, it shows that the study that claimed bias, is bias itself due to the participants. If that source is going to be cited, all parts of it become relevant. Not just one sentence. Do you have any objection? Aside from just saying 'conensus has been reached' (thank you for being 'curt'...it is more productive) Thank you for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 14:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
If what I put on is Original Research, then so is the original statement. What I put down is in the EXACT SAME article as the original version. Go look at it, it is just a few paragraphs above the disputed statement. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 16:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
Consensus building effort
Editors who participated
Not everyone agreed on every point, but every name you see gave input and issued opinion on what became the final compromise version of the introduction. Every point you have raised was rased, and addressed, in the discussions referenced above. So now, you're saying the work of eighteen named editors and several anonymous contributors is laughable? That is the most serious violation of WP:AGF I've ever seen, and speaks volumes about your credibility on this issue. / Blaxthos 20:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Fortunately, Wikipedia is a community based on consensus -- regardless of how much bias you may believe exists, the community worked together to craft an acceptable introduction. No matter how much of a stink you raise, it is not going to crumble twenty editors' collective effort until you can show that very consensus has changed. The issue isn't bias, the issue is consensus, and I (once again) point out that this is a compromise version. Further discussion is moot at this point. I would most strongly advise you to educate yourself on the past before kicking up a shitstorm, and try to understand what the objection is (as opposed to just repeating the same thing over and over). / Blaxthos 20:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a real problem continuing to assume good faith with you. The title of the section is Talk:Fox_News_Channel/Archive_15#Should_FNC.27s_alleged_conservative_bias_be_mentioned_in_the_article_introduction.3F. How are you unable to see the pages and pages of discussion? It's under the heading Should_FNC's_alleged_conservative_bias_be_mentioned_in_the_article_introduction . Is this somehow convaluded? Did you actually bother to read the archives? If so, how can you possibly claim to have overlooked the massive conversation? / Blaxthos 22:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me just add this. To all of you who feel that the bias opinion should not be in the introduction: I agree. But, what I or you feel is unimportant. It is what the consensus determined. As stated numerous times. The concensus is a) to not mention it in the introduction, since it is one of the factors of Foxnews's notability, would violate NPOV; b) the opinion is held by persons too numerous and diverse to quantify, there it falls into the weasel word exceptions. Do I agree with all of that, no. But the current version is the best compromise we can all reach. Moving it lower into the article was discussed, not giving the bias opinion too much undue weight was discussed, whether there should be sources at all was also discussed. So until there is a showing of a changed consensus, or a new and original argument is raised, I will not argue any more on this. The burden is on the new editors to show that consensus has changed. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 00:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You are correct! What any of us 'feel' is irrelevant. I make every decision every day based on logic, reason, common sense, and available information. My motto is 'feelings do not make facts'. None of my objections are based on 'feelings' it is based on the truth. I want to leave the mention of bias in the intro since it is so 'important' to some. What is fair would also be an edit which I recommended, but was immediately reverted.
No matter how often you repeat your argument, you've had several established editors explaining both the procedural hurdle you need to overcome, as well as why including information about the survey is so important to Fox News that it must be introduced in the first few paragraphs. If *anything* it should be footnoted in the references section at the bottom, but I personally don't see analysis of the survey as necessary in this particular article. / Blaxthos 11:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Please bear with me on this one guys/girls
Gentlemen and/or Ladies (politically correct I think?) First, I am not a 'sockpuppet' in fact I just read what one is. So please do not make incorrect judgements. Also, I have read the archives, and just as Bytebear said above I also did not a consensus from all sides.
I pride myself on coldheartedness when making decisions, but I will turn that off for now. The four of us who have been carrying this on all believe the same thing. That, after considering the matter at hand we are right. I have seen people say they want to walk away from wikipedia (rhyming not intended). These are the same reasons I recently became an editor. You need to understand that I am not trying to push my POV and alienate 'months of work'. I am trying to bring about balance.
What I do appreciate about Auburnpilot, Blaxthos, and Bytebear is the intelligent manner in which each of you present your side, because nothing is more annoying than arguing with an idiot. But I am not an idiot either, and nor am I a 'sockpuppet' or an irrational person. All I want is to help add balance to Wikipedia. Though I am a new editor I am not a new fan of wikipedia. I have enjoyed this product for a long time, and feel it is a wonderful and important tool in society. So for the sake of neutrality I do not see why adding my edit is being so opposed, or supporting the same structure in the intros of Fox competitors is so opposed.
CNN has this in their bias section: CNN has been accused of bias for allegedly promoting a liberal agenda based on previous incidents. It has also been accused of being slanted toward US interests when reporting on world conflicts and wars.[5] Critics such as LA Weekly say it is part of an alleged pro-war news media[1]. CNN denies any bias.
But they do not have it in their intro, and I am not trying to nitpick or argue based on another article. What I am doing is pointing out that there is a lack of balance on Wikipedia, and believe the structure of FOX and its respective competitors is important for the sake of NPOV. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 15:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC))
I do not want to discuss the format of CNN. I think it is just fine, and (as i stated previously) am glad that this discrepency only appears one time. So CNN aside, the statement and stance I took earlier (in reference to my suggested addition to the intro) I have not heard a solid argument against it yet. So I say again what I said before, This information is relevant to the statement in question, and should not be censored. Reverting my recommended edit suggests a blatant attempt to insert POV w/no intentions of allowing balance. I do not understand why it is wrong to use information that pertains to the topic at hand which is from the same source as the topic at had. Unlike the truth, emotions lie. Thank you for looking out. ( OfForByThePeople 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC))
As a moderate who happened to just walk by this discussion, I don't think it is appropriate to have the conservative bias stuff in the lead. It should be in the controversies section. CNN does not have anything like that written even though Ted Turner is "a socialist at heart" and has donated plenty to leftist organizations. -- Shamir1 23:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is evidence that an editor is using sock puppets to attempt and influence this issue and to make it appear that concensus has changed. Please be thorough in evaluating such claims when determining consensus. |
How can a new consensus be done? It seems that there enough editors who dispute the bias to revisit it. Hapkdo 21:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
STOP SOCKPUPPETRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE DAMAGING RELEVANT ARGUMENTS AND CHANCES OF ACHIEVING NEUTRALITY!!!!!!!! Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference between a sock puppet and someone who is censored. The fact is that certain administrators and editors block soneone if they don't like their facts. There is enough consensus to open the bias conversation. Yamlak 19:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
NOTE---- Read the above. User:AuburnPilot, User:Blaxthos, and I do not agree on what is the right thing to do with this article. ...YET amazingly you don't see me being blocked. Don't use multiple accounts to achieve your goals. Plain and Simple
If an editor blocks you as a 'sock puppet' without any proof backing it up than file a complaint, prove it, then go have a 'Coke and a Smile' :-) Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Side note: Everytime an editor comes here knowing they are in a position which could warrant blocking you damage peoples efforts. Every time an editor is blocked here as a sockpuppet or impersonator you undermine efforts like mine, and legitimize the misquided good-faith efforts of others Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As a side issue from much of the above discussion, I feel that the sentence 'In the opinion of Ken Auletta of The New Yorker, it was to counter a news media that Murdoch believed was predominantly liberal.' in the history section could be misleading. Whilst the use of the term 'liberal' to indicate a perceived anti-conservative political leaning is commonplace in popular American parlance, this is actually at odds with both the historical meaning of the word, its dictionary definition, the manner in which it is used in academic texts, and the meaning that it holds for many English-speaking people outside of North America (cf. American Liberalism). As such, I would argue for the use of an alternative term or some qualification of the current usage to be provided in the article, possibly as an endnote. This is actually a pretty general gripe that could be extended to a number of other articles and, indeed, the few other usages of the term in this article itself. I just think that the unqualified use of a term that is relatively recent in prominence, often stigmatised, and potentially misleading should be avoided. Benwilson528 23:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Mr. Benwilson528 for the same purpose. When the reader ends the first paragraph on a 'liberal bias' note, and starts the following paragraph on a 'liberal bias' note NPOV goes out the window. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 17:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC))
Hello. My statement was not an interpretaion of Mr. Benwilson528. I was agreeing with him and then adding my view. Sorry for not clarifying this. It would be best to move both statements to other sections to acheive NPOV, but I am having a good week so lets save that one for later. Have a good day! Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 19:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC))
Does the paragraph about the show 24 really need to be in the intro section? I think we should move it, but I am reluctant to create a trivia or 'in popular culture' section. thoughts? - Taco325i 14:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the recent Obama hoax broadcasted by Fox News, later debunked by CNN, be included on this the controversy section? It strikes at their journalistic integrity which is fairly important topic. -- Voidvector 09:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
ok Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 06:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The ratings section has a number of vague statements and non verified claims and it possibly contradicts itself.
The first claim is not sourced and just flat out says that fox is number one in the cable market. I have heard otherwise personally but can't find any good data on the subject. (I've also heard that 9 out of 10 dentists prefer Crest toothpaste).
Also the claim, In July 2006, Fox had the 55 top rated episode telecasts on cable news. The first non-Fox show to appear on the list was number 56, Larry King Live. is a little hard to swallow. It has a reference to some random excel spreadsheet that doesn't say a lot about the claim except that its says "TOP NEWSCASTS".
I'm thinking it would be good to clean that up and find some verifiable/accurate references or go an head remove the claims. ZacBowling 01:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Good afternoon, good day, or good evening. I have just started looking at the new sources and additons to the article so am unsure as to their relevance. Regardless of what I find once I delve into this more deeply, are their any other suggestions as a substitute to the word "unique" it seems to be a weasel word. Unique? Compared to what? What is un-unique? What people are defined as un-ique? What people are defined as unique? etc etc etc. Suggestions anyone? Thanks for looking out!( OfForByThePeople 22:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC))
Okay. That definition places all viewers under the term. So there is no distinction between the viewers of CNN and/or the viewers of FOX. So, therefore you can't describe CNN viewers as 'unique' because the term as your link described draws no distinction between the two. A term like 'total' or 'gross' viewers just seems more appropriate. Thank you for looking out!!! ( OfForByThePeople 03:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
This interaction is so much more pleasant than previous. Thank you for assuming 'good faith'. Despite my suspicion as to whether matters concerning another network (CNN) bears any relevance to this article...I am not trying to find a problem, if so I would be trying to remove the entire quote. As of yet I have not found any reason to dispute this (aside whether it should be here at all). Mr. Blaxthos your interpretation is excellent, and seems much more appropriate for the article. Anyway look here [ [6]] Unique indicates special characteristics. So what makes CNN viewers unique? Why talk about CNN in a FOX NEWS article? It should probably be moved to the FOX Controversies article. Thank you for looking out!!!( OfForByThePeople 04:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
Would there be any objection to stating (as the article says) that CNN has the most viewers, where as FOX NEWS has a higher retention rate. Thanks for looking out! ( OfForByThePeople 06:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
well its interesting that FOX is controlled by a Chinese-Australian couple since 1999 (or slightly before when they started their affair)...yet i wonder...the other networks and news platforms could really hit at Wendi Dengs and Murdochs market share if they were able to get the message out that FOX is owned by a chinese-australian couple...if they saw that FOX was potentially half controlled by a young Chinese woman (perhaps she has more sway than even this over the far far older Murdoch)...if the typical FOX news viewer was presented with this fact (which i doubt if hardly any actually know)...we could end up seeing a radical market share adjustment...with FOX and its support of Bush & the iraq war...then this chinese involvement in FOX that dates pre 2000 election...the american public might even get rather upset that they have not been seeing the true picture...the other platforms could really hit at FOX's market share if they played it well...they need some hard hitting aggressive marketting people to take advantage of this situation...to bring the entire american population to the awareness that its an aussie-chinese couple that owns FOX wouldnt be too hard...they could really play up the current battle over the inheritance to bring it to public awareness...and ironically its FOX viewers themselves that are the ones that would most be shocked and angred over Chinese control over american propaganda outlets...isnt it a silly world... Benjiwolf 14:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
if i was one of the other networks...i would start an "NBC dateline expose" type show devoted half to FOX news, rupert murdoch, and wendi deng, and the current inheritance battle with the other children...put it inside a show about lisa nowak (have lisas part the second part as the hook)...booom..."nuclear marketting and market share grab tactic"...if several of the netwoks and CNN did it and spread it out some, FOX would have a hard time simultaneously countering all of them with some sensational high-ratings show of their own... Benjiwolf 14:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
shes born and raised in China, man...shes a chinese citizen for all intents and purposes...shes even spent the majority of her years in China, the fact that one of americas main propaganda/news outlets is owned by a chinese-australian couple is big big news...they may have successfully attempted to get american citizenship too so they could maintain control within US law, yet its all true man...and its not about ethnicity...its about what country are these owners really beholden to?...and marry who you want please please...yet when u start to control a vast portion of the media outlets then its time to scrutinize...& definitely past citizenships... Benjiwolf 16:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
and...this is no country bumpkin news station they own...this chinese-australian couple own the largest, most vast media empire, ever in the history of the world, including FOX news...the fact that their original (might i add true) citizenships are chinese and australian and the fact that they are australian-chinese in ethnic makeup allows me to always describe them as a "chinese-australian" couple if i wish...(of course you could argue murdoch is british, and not australian aboriginal in ethnic makeup, yet when i call someone australian in ethnic makeup it realizes this...id say australian aboriginal if i meant the other)...anyways its not about ethnicity...its about their citizenships, why they got new ones, and just who are they really...does wendi deng now have ami citizenship?...chinese too still?...totally ami citizenship now???...whats her INS status???... Benjiwolf 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
go to wikipedias page on Wendi Deng...most of my info is from there...go to ruperts page...info for him is from there...and this is all open source info...its all over hundreds of internet sites... Benjiwolf 18:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways...yes... ill make it one of my new pet projects...extensive referencing this fact about FOX news that is well hidden, that in fact its a chinese australian couple that own them...ur going to see a bunch of info about this on this page...im just getting started...ive seen many articles on this...including some talking about her true level of control in News Corporation...yet for now everything on the page is factual as far as i have seen...its just been hidden till now... Benjiwolf 18:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways as to citizenship and not ethnics thats most important...i come to the article in that attitude...and with the fact that wendi deng was & is (ive never seen anything saying she isnt still) a full chinese...yet as to me personally...the pass paperwork means little to me...my loyalty is to my ethnic group first...(& im a bit of a mutt)...then the pass and paperwork comes into it after this...citizenship???...what is that...its a piece of paper...im a citizen of earth...these arbitrary boundaries???...for now they are practical till things are worked out between the various ethnic groups that control the various territories...someday theyll be gone...for the super rich like murdoch and wendi deng they already are...currently its a boundaryless world for the elite...& u can even be full chinese born and bred, with papers from them, and rule over FOX news in america...its the masses that have the boundaries...wendi deng can go where-ever she wants on this globe instantly...is she still chinese?..american now???...who cares...most people cant go anywhere they want...and she'll always be chinese...she cant change it...only the paperwork...yet she should be proud of the fact that she is a Chinese...and the Chinese will be proud of the fact that its a Chinese-Australian couple that own FOX news...really really proud...they must be laughing... Benjiwolf 18:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You are right, and I was out of line. Thanks for checking my ego. But blatant/ridiculous rants like that go so far beyond incredulous that other 'feelings' !!:-)!! come about. AGF is hard to take on AFTER being told multiple times where they are mistaken. I didnt start to laugh until i saw your initial responses...followed by more "misguidance" in proposals. Any way I dont need to try and qualify. Have a good one!
Any way I was out of line...So now I will go have a 'Coke and a Smile' Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 04:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i think y'all are missing the point...actually a vast sum of FOX news profits could head staight to mainland china if she were to split with him, or else if he dies...and actually a vast amount of FOX news profits will head to the two half chinese kids no matter what, they may wish to live in China or the US...its hard to say, i think the Chinese government would wish them to live in the US for several reasons the chinese government would have...as to the control over the company...well thats being worked out in the courts as we speak...its not a conspiracy theory man...its reality...wellcome to FOX news and News Corporation...go ahead...search around...ur going to find that the couple that runs News Corporation: Rupert Murdoch and Wendi Deng..is a chinese-australian couple...and its one of the most incredible yet true stories of our time...have fun!!! heres another pic of rupert & wendi if you still dont believe it [7]...yet you can find them on any major news source, not just american ones...its no conspiracy (or have i somehow managed to control the entire world wide web???)...yet go ahead and remain in denial!...its a tough one to swallow for the FOX news fans isnt it!!!...ha ha!...take a few aspirin and think of something else for the next week or two...and remember...everytime u tune in to FOX...your adding pennies to the Chinese coffers!!!...ha ha!...oh its great to know the FOX news fans were so easily duped by the Chinese!!!...its great!!!... Benjiwolf 12:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: and FOX knew it would be a hard pill to swallow too, thats why they didnt even mention it until 2006 seven years later!...ha ha!!!...actual news souces reported on this long ago...FOX is a tabloid, Murdoch always was a tabloid owner, and of course hes not going to report on this story in his own tabloids...it sensational yes, yet runs quite counter to how he wants to present himself and his tabloids like FOX news...or...or...and this of course is speculation and i think my first thoughts most likely...yet there is a very very tiny chance he was always china-red and just was waiting to use his own story to flip the tables on y'all and totally discredit FOX as tied to the chinese even!!!...he could be a liberal mastermind genius!...maybe hes kept FOX over the top for a reason...i dont know really...ud have to ask him i suppose... Benjiwolf 14:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways all i can say at this moment is..."cheers!!!" mr murdoch!...your story and wendis is so sensational it almost beats em all!!!...what a couple...what a coup!...the chinese and FOX news!!!...ha ha!!!...all the way back in 1999 even!!!... Benjiwolf 14:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i havent made any statements about this affecting FOX news except for what documents say...i havnt made any conspiracy claims...this is all true, they are married, she is full chinese, there is an inheritance battle, as she is full chinese and has control over this media empire then that means chinese have control over it...and the two kids are half chinese and inherit vast profit from FOX this is fact, the issues over controlling shares are unresolved which i clearly state...this is not conspiracy...im not saying FOX news is out to control the world...im not saying anything like that...im stating the owners of FOX, who they are, what citizenships they have...and the inheritance issues... Benjiwolf 17:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
i am referencing this...even with FOX news sources...and i am going to further detail all of this with many many references...your not going to keep it out...you cant silence the facts...i already have a dozen references yet i can get hundreds people...this is all public information...its just FOX itself that hasnt been reporting on it until 2006... Benjiwolf 17:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
my additions are totally legitimate...this is the owning couple of FOX news...talking about FOXs owners, control and profit isssues, and inheritance issues is fully legit using public sources i have begun to cite, including FOX, new york times, australian papers, ill put in the washington post picture if u need...face it...this is true, public information, and totally relevant...these are the owners of FOX and they have the controlling interest...FOX is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and Wendi Deng...they have then delegated themselves down the line from there...if FOX is going to broadcast something they dont like...they can stop it...simple as that...and i can find u plenty of articles that show rupert has indeed done such things as determine actual content...yet i havnt put anything on the page yet...i have so far just been talking about controlling interest, and monetary profit, and inheritance issues to see who gets the control over FOX and who will profit... Benjiwolf 17:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Dude, you are a riot, but the problem is you are providing no credible sources...Plus No One is denying that Murdoch is of Australian discent, and Wendi is of Chinese discent...The problem is that no-body cares...guess what? every American is a descendent of another country...nobody cares. The Governor of California is Austrian...nobody cares. My dog is a German Sheppard...nobody cares. Pizza came from Italy...nobody cares. My TV came from Japan...nobody cares. Respectfully stop this nonsense. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 01:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I provided a dozen credible sources including FOX news themselves, i was blocked before i was going to add yet another major newspaper source as to the 100 million dollar profit shares being handed to the two kids, that could even be chinese citizens if they wished, and that will clearly be at least half loyal to the people of China...the governor of california is from a closely allied country to the US, not from China, plus he has considerably less power than a media mogul couple such as murdoch & wendi deng, in fact without their support he couldnt have been elected, he cant run for president as he was originally a foreigner, if he could he would need rupert murdoch and wendi deng to support him to win, and even if he won and was the american president i question whether he would have more power than wendi deng & rupert murdochs global media empire. The bottom line is the Chinese wont allow americans to control their propaganda, they are not so foolish, the americans allowed chinese into their most powerful mass-media empire. That is questionable considering the stance america takes towards china and vice versa...yet i have taken no side on this really, just documented it mainly, and remorked that it is ironic in some ways it was FOX news they got into back in 1999, yet this is my last breath on the issue, and one of my last breaths on wikipedia, the wikipedia character benjiwolf has been slain...these are the last breaths of a ghost...
a totally different character has risen in his place: "Silence of the Wolves", he has already tried to edit this page once, and will continue, yall took care of removing the mention of wendi deng and china for him from the article, if anyone adds this information to the article, he will remove it, now he wishes to remove this discussion of it from public view as well, he does not contribute to english version wikipedia much, mainly adding material to non-english wikipedia, and wishes this entire discussion and all mention of China and FOX be removed from american & australian versions of wikipedia at least, justifying it as removing a POV rant, benji wolf was a neutralist character...this new creature "silence of the wolves" is decidedly hard right and wishes the media to fall into fewer and fewer hands, at least in certain countries, & it doesnt matter who they are that controls it, chinese or not, the fewer the better. In addition there is much material & information he wishes to add, yet not to the view of american or australian users, he is hard right, he believes in excluvisity, and yall have been excluded...some fall into the exclusive group, even some entire countries, and they will receive the full accurate information about things...the ghost of- Benjiwolf 18:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
he is thru!...and now i again propose this entire discussion about FOX and China be removed...this is a POV rant "benjiwolf" has engaged in, it should all be erased!...i again reinstate my argument this was a POV rant, & it is against wikipedia policy to soapbox on wikipedia, benjiwolf has engaged in soapboxing...it should be removed from display... Silence-of-the-Wolves 18:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think its been mentioned...one wikipedia character has been retired, after publicly announced retirement there were just a couple comments on talk pages to respond to, no article pages were edited after the retirement, yet since u are concerned with "sock puppeting", then i propose we erase everything "benjiwolf" has contributed to this talk page. So is it OK?...Im going to erase on next edit since you seem to be concerned, indeed i already tried and it was blocked...while i had proposed that a POV rant justified an erasure, your "sock-puppeting" charge provides yet another justification and makes it easier...it sounds like you support erasure auburnpilot??...and this solves your sock-puppeting concerns quite simply doesnt it...and you helped kill the character off, it had a dozen valid references to back up its edits on the article page, yet was blocked, and theres no bringing it back, that character is dead, so whats the complaint here?...lets erase those POV rants, and it eliminates any sock puppet problems on the page too, youve got a radically different editor in this character, it agrees with you completely, is in full agreement about the block of "benjiwolf", is in full agreement about removing its edits from the article, and now is in full agreement that those were POV rants on the talk pages, and the charge of sock-puppeting cements a decision to erase, so lets erase... Silence-of-the-Wolves 00:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think your powerless...that character is gone, this one is actually on your side, and you will find you have a highly effective editor on that side, wikipedia regulations are being followed, and there isnt any attempt to weaken this side, only to strengthen it...plus there was never an attempt to hide the connections, the new name chosen was similar...its a legitimate switch to the other side, sort of to a different wiki-nationality of sorts actually, anyways several editors ganged up, and you successfully slew the character, (you can consider that you convinced it of your reasonings and thereby slew it), this new character is 100% in agreement with yall, yet the name has to change, it really is a totally different editor for all intents and purposes, anyways you achieved agreement: the chinese stuff shouldnt have been included, so lets also remove it from the talk pages...yall gained a convert, what exactly is the complaint?... Silence-of-the-Wolves 00:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
This obsession with Anna Nicole Smith since her death, I believe has bordered on overkill for the last week with all the networks; but it's especially bad on Fox News. Does anyone think this could be considered a controversy? WAVY 10 15:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
You know what....I'm not even going to say the truth...lets find some more spiffy wiki words oh yeah... NPOV Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate having the article revised as follows (bold and italics enclose the proposed changes):
The channel was created by Australian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Like other news sources ( ABC, CBS, NBC), Fox News has been criticized as advocating political positions, although it is seen as aligned with conservative politics rather than liberal positions; [1] the channel denies allegations of bias in their news reporting.
Lynn 23:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC) I checked on the articles for ABC, CBS, and NBC. None of them had such a criticism within the opening paragraphs. There was mention in the CNN article about being criticized for both conservative and liberal bias.
FNN is hardly unique in being criticized for political bias. ABC, CBS, and NBC have had several best selling books written about their alleged bias. (see "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg)
A reader who did a quick read of the four articles would get the impression that FNN is less professional than ABC, CBS, or NBC.
I will check back on this discussion before doing any revisions.—Preceding unsigned comment added by L d allan ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 6 March 2007
Blaxthos, I am disagreeing with you. This has been discussed to death w/out any disapproving that this article is meant to make FNN look unpofessional, and I am going to support this. Who=ever this new user is that has brought up this again...good and please I do encourage him to go read the previous intro discussion, and there is proper opposition for change Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 08:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You might be forgetting this conversation earlier in this talk section
That discussion and changes conderned changing the article when comparing to CNN, so if what happens w/ other news media outlets is unimportant,,,than why was this agreed with so quickly and allowed to change....after all since when two two editors agreeing create a consensus or change???? I find it somewhat offensive to see such quick agreement and change over this, when my simple recommendations considering the change of one word are met with such extreme opposition. again what happens at CNN holds no relevance here, Right? Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 16:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Blaxthos I am sorry if I got you in a tuffle, but that was not my attention, again I admire your conviction as I hope you do mine. I am also sorry that this has gone on for over half of a year. But come on, it is still open for discussion I believe you have the time to respond to my most humble replies..so the matter is not closed it is still under conversation...bear with me on this. Also I am sorry that so many loser, cry-baby sockpuppets have come in here. as you know I am simply an editor trying to do what I see as right, and you should be able to understand this. But what a sockpuppet says has nothing to do with me. I am a separate entity so do not lump me into that category. With all due respect for your great Wiki contributions Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, under Wiki guidelines no topic is ever closed for discussion, so as long as I am here this is open-ended. I much appreciate your Wiki contributions as a great editor who will probably be an admin. someday, but I have asked you nicely to discuss this without hostility. or outside of this forum through e-mail. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Side note! I have complimented you and your contributions, and have shown no disprespect, so I expect the same Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 05:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, I will review all past recommendations, but so far the ONLY editors to try and 're-explain' have been Blaxthos and Chris. SO I dont seem to be upsetting all these other editors you speak of. But I agree with you and will review to see if there is cause to perhaps re-open discussion for change. Thank you for your patience with me (a new editor). But Please stop lumping me in the same category as these sockpuppets that is what I find to be disrespectful. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 12:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Blaxthos, we know your position on this issue. We cannot, however, after months still accept your comments in new and consistent discussions that arise. I am asking you, respectfully, to remove yourself from any and further discussions about the subject of percieved "bias" of the network in this article; consensus can change, and you are not an authority to submit to when users are editing Wikipedia. Especially on controversial subjects such as this, we are expected to hold differing opinions. However, disallowing any such change for months without a significant reasoning is a sign of undeclared authority; Wikipedia is open for this reason. Now, the report that is used as a source specifically states that 69% of national media (let's not forget, these may be competitors) respondants to the survey identified FNC as a "conservative news organization." The current version of the opening states:
“ | Fox News has been criticized as advocating conservative political positions | ” |
This is not detailed enough. The NPOV policy makes it as clear as possible that when there are details to express about a controversial opinion being added in an article, be sure to include all details known to "excuse" Wikipedia from allegations of contributing or "passing on" any bias. Quite honestly, the opening statement is in a grey area for the NPOV policy right now; it surely does not pass the WP:VERIFY policy, however. There is no criticism of FNC of being a percieved "conservative news organization" in the source, just a statement that the national media who responded to the specific study identified FNC as a "conservative news organization." Editing it to conform to these policies is the only thing that should be discussed right now; if we cannot come to a conclusion shortly, expect this article to be tagged appropriately. -- Mrmiscellanious 03:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Reading through the history section, it seems that it might be worth it to see if we can revise the first paragraph in the History section back to the previous editions which focused more on the actual introduction, not the perceived bias which has followed the introduction of the network. Additionally, it seems it might be worth it to expand upon the network's slow rise into the top of the ratings, though that might have already been covered in the Ratings section of the page. Chris ( Talk) ( Contribs) 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
She is a new contributor to the channel. -Amit, 03/10/07
Since when did Wikipedians begin to state the ethnic backgrounds of United States Citizens? I have spent very little time on Wikipedia over the past week...so did I miss something here? Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a simple question, it appears tht you are 'looking for ways to find problems' Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking this b/c the last time I heard mention of Roger Ailes, was, when the Chinese conspiracy theory editor came on-board. So I was wondering if there was actually a compromise w/ such a "character" Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 00:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Judging from the elaborate attention to "detail" contained in his comments...He is most likely a 'true believer'. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 17:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this statement:
Is there a better source available? (That's a mostly rhetorical question, I'm pretty sure there is). I went to the cited source, and the closest thing I found is the paragraph around this statement:
All this says to me is that a lot of journalists think Fox News is conservative. It seems like too narrow a group to support the broad statement in the intro, and it doesn't even explicitly criticize Fox News for said bias. As it stands now, it seems like the opening statement is a little weaselly. I think this would be much improved by just finding a reliable source out there that simply says "Fox News has been criticized for being conservative", or even "Fox News is biased and here's why...". Can anyone help me find a good one? Cogswobble 17:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I strongly object, as this was both explained and covered in previous RfC's. The only requirement in such a claim in the intro is verifiability, which occurs later in the article. Elevating any sources gives them undue weight, and WP:LEAD specifically states only a brief overview is prudent. / Blaxthos 17:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I am considering working on a template or talkspace box to be placed at the top of the page with an attention grabbing graphic and something alone the lines of This article is the subject of much controversy and has been crafted by way of WP:CONSENSUS. The following are topics often of concern to editors not familiar with this article (click for explaination):' Followed by explainations of the intro wording, the bias sources, any other issue we seem to be covering every seven days for johnny-come-lately's. Anyone want to help me with that (both in terms of constructing the template/box, and formulating accurate/acceptable explainations of any controversies)?
/ Blaxthos 16:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
After having given explainations for most of the often asked queries (at least a dozen times each) I have a basic idea of how to address those issues (incorporating Ramsquire's summary). I don't think I'll be "all over" this one (real life sometimes interjects), but maybe I can get something together in a week or two. I have zero experience coding templates. Appreciate the help. I'll update when things have moved forward some. / Blaxthos 20:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
After seeing this:
http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/fox-legislatingdefeat.jpg
I think it is time to lable Foxnews propaganda.
Mayorcheese 03:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
What would Fox have to do before it could be labled as Propaganda? Mayorcheese 04:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Would a news anchor on CNN qualify as a reliable source?
Mayorcheese 05:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, after reading much of the last few archives, I'm not really interested in getting into a fight here, I'd rather spend time on things care a little more about.
I will say that after reading the archives, as you've suggested, I find it striking that the primary objections to any changes that various editors have suggested to this area have consistently fallen along the lines of "This has already been decided by consensus, please read the archives."
What's striking is that the handful of editors that have taken that advice (including myself) have disagreed that consensus has been reached.
e.g. - Bytebear "it seems to me that you are trying to sway any arguements your way by claiming there was a consensus. Clearly there was not.""
When I first visited the page, I didn't think much of the intro other than think that the sources could be improved. Ironically, after reading the archives, I'd be more inclined to remove the bias statement than leave it in.
And yet editors here are planning on applying a template to this page to imply that consensus has been reached, and therefore new editors shouldn't bother discussing changes. I don't mean to imply that if some editors here feel strongly that something should (or shouldn't be included) that they shouldn't be willing to vigorously patrol the page and engage editors in discussion. I just don't think that they should be trying to end discussion abruptly by insisting that consensus has been reached. Cogswobble 17:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, to "be more inclined to remove the bias statement than leave it in," you'd be more wrong than right. The introduction, or lead, should be "capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article," while also "briefly describing its notable controversies". If anything, the intro needs to be expanded. While a source is not required, as this is an overview of a topic addressed later in the article, one was provided to address the concerns of weasel words. Personally, I don't object to additional sources so long as the wording (which was the main focus of this discussion, which started in Oct. '06) stays the same. But, I bow to consensus and a great deal of work was put into the current version. - auburnpilot talk 18:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the deal. This is the talk page for discussing changes to the article's topic. It is not the place to discuss involved editors' actions during that discussion. The change has been made, the citation was added, and unless there is something more to add, it's time to move on. Otherwise, take it to the individual editor's talk page. - auburnpilot talk 01:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There is a current movement from several editors to remove the language in the intro section of this article that speaks to the bias of the channel. The argument that there are more sources "out there" that speak to the alleged bias of this channel, is purely relative and carries no weight. I have introduced this new section to re-visit this issue, in an attempt to organize the objective effort to either change the intro, or leave it. I realize this has been addressed in the past, however nothing says we can't address it again as new editors come into the mix. Wikiport ( talk) 19:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
[sic]
. No useful contributions have been made by this account. None are likely in the future." //
Blaxthos (
t /
c ) 21:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Do I detect some acrimony here? It's curious how often a fine fellow such as Blaxthos, certainly an exemplary Wikipedian, utterly well versed in its etiquette, seems to get into bitter disputes with novitiates. I wonder why. Oh well, on to substance. In and of itself the statement that says "Some critics and some observers ..." is true enough and relatively innocuous. Obviously, some critics and observers say this. Technically, it violates WP:OR and WP:Weasel as do literally millions of statements in Wikipedia but some latitude is usually extended to introductions. The problem comes with the unwillingness of some editors to even try to be consistent in politically contentious articles. For example, MSNBC's prime time lineup is now vastly more biased than Fox News's prime time lineup has ever been. It is, in fact, an utter "closed shop" between 8:00 and 11:00 P.M., with Olbermann, in particular, becoming a parody of himself. The fact has been observed by relatively neutral commentators such as the L.A. Times's Howard Rosenberg and ABC's Howard Kurtz. No peer reviewed studies are needed to assess "The Bush administration's fifty running scandals" or "McCain in the membrane". Yet the same editors who insist on retaining the statement about Fox's alleged bias in the article's intro regularly block any similar introductory mention of assertions of bias regarding MSNBC. Typically, they point to Wikipedian "principles" which they violate themselves when it suits their purposes. WP: OTHERSTUFF is one them. Here, of course, they tend to ignore their roles in creating that "other stuff". In short, the statement under discussion in the Fox article would be fine if a similar statement in the MSNBC's article's intro were also fine. Otherwise, leave them out of both. Badmintonhist ( talk) 23:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)