This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Fox news has a clear slant or bias towards the Republican Party. This is fine. There is a radio network named Air America out there with a clear slant towards the Democratic party.
The problem is that Fox news denies their bias which is dishonest. Further this article by ignoring this whole issue is not being honest or truthful. 01001 20:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Listen, until Fox says they’re right wing, or there is an unbiased report saying so (I believe there have been several to the contrary), the article shan’t contain “right wing”, “republican”, or “propaganda”. And now comes the time I pick apart your previous statements: 1.It may well be that CNN has a liberal bias, although a very strong logical argument can be made that it has a right wing bias or at least a corporate bias. Ok, first off…you just negated your premise, and then negated the negation. 2.But clearly, CNN does not pretend to be that which it isnt at least not to the extent of Fox News. So CNN doesn’t pretend to not be a liberal leaning network? Then they’ve admitted it, or at least have addressed it in some fashion. Oh, they haven't? Then why pick on FNC because you think they're so obviously rw. Squiggyfm 07:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting heated real quick lets step back and think about this. Try to view it from the other persons viewpoint both sides have some valid arguments thanks-- Soliscjw 20:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a statement such as:
would suffice? -- Nantonos 07:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem with putting FoxNews is a conservative news operation in the introduction is that it may be misleading. It gives the impression that it is a conservative enterprise. It's a news enterprise with a conservative slant. To use an extreme example, Al Jazeera is a news operation that is, let's just say skeptical of the US and the West in the War on Terror, but it would be wrong, and POV, to label it a terrorist news network here at Wiki. However, that criticism does belong in a controversies section. Same here. The conservative accusation belongs in the controversy section. Finally one note of correction, FoxNews does not support the Republican party, it supports the conservative movement. If a Republican, let's say McCain, steps outside of the conservative movement, they will get treated just as every other liberal, and if Democrat adopts a conservative position, they will get the red carpet treatment. See Lieberman. Ramsquire 17:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
This does not need to be mentioned in the intro. There is an entire article devoted to controversies with a section in the article pointing to it. It is not intro material. AuburnPilot Talk 19:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that if all else fails, you can note that EVERY COMMENTATOR IS RIGHT WING. Excuse my shouting but you and I both know it. (I won't dignity it by using the word "conservative" that is too often abused by neocons). I don't count Colmes, who is somewhere middle of the road and never gets his way anyway. I also think the whoel argument was given away by the guy who said something like "If a Republican ever goes bad, Fox will hound him like a liberal." Gee, ya think maybe they're not fair and balanced after all? It is QUITE CLEAR that (a) Rupert Murdoch is right wing as they come and (b) Fox News is 100% for the Republican Party regardless of whether the Republicans adhere to conservative principles (like less government interference in private lives!). So why does this article make Fox News sound like a bastion of impartiality?
davert
In the last few edits, the addition of this tag happened to the article. I am wondering, was the addition of this article encompassing the entire article or a section of the article that needs work? Chris 04:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
An issue in the past of this article, and possibly to come around again, but how exactly should the article go about possibly introducing the idea of the network's bias in the introduction? One of the latest edits have returned it into the introduction. Chris ( Talk) ( Contribs) 23:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt this highly controversial subject be added in this section?? The very basis of Fox news as a fair organisation (self appointed) would be up for discussion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYA2zFsCK8 Chrisp7 21:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
When Fox is discussed, when people search Wiki for FNC, there should be something in the first section and its own section about FNC bias. That's the major issue with FNC, that's what people want to discuss when it comes to FNC. This article really commits the crime of ommission by leaving all that stuff to the separate article. I corrected the obviously bogus implication that Fox and CNN receive equal amounts of criticism but I would like to see this article rewritten in a more reader-friendly style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.54.179 ( talk • contribs) 6 September 2006
This part of the article is a serious problem. In my opinion, we should have the heading "Controversies ..." etc. followed by a very short, NPOV statement stating the main areas the corresponding article covers. What we should not have is a selection of the criticisms themselves, especially since they have been placed here without any opposing views. Can't we at least agree on this simple point? Edders 20:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Controversies concerning bias etc. should stay in their respective articles, and not spill over into the main Fox News piece, which many people use simply to look up technical things such as ratings, well-known employees, where it airs etc. Edders 20:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.54.179 ( talk • contribs) 7 September 2006
unsigned2|7 September 2006|141.149.54.179: You seriously need to calm down. Insinuating that other editors are either partisans or mentally retarded, just because they disagree with you; destroys the chances of people reaching a consensus on issues. Don't forget that wikipedia asks you assume good faith on the part of other editors, most of whom are simply dedicated to making a more encyclopedic article. Again, keep all controversies and criticisms relating to bias in their appropriate article. When you start adding pieces from that article to this one you have to balance them with counter-arguments or defences, which will inevitably turn a small section into a big one. The unwarranted amount of criticism stuffed into the con/crit, section in this article is an eyesore - readers will scroll through an article that looks (mostly) professional and encyclopedic only to hit a massive pile of POV that ruins it. Sadly, the vast majority of discussion concerning this article revolves around the controversy and criticism section, something that needs to be addressed by moving it to the proper place. Edders 10:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I recently created a FREE Fox Radio tool bar that links to Fox Radio,a nd most of the links on FoxNews.com My link has been removed by some, stating that it was not relevant. If a tool bar about Fox news (that contains NO spyware, No spam and No ads) is not relavant to the External links -- then what is? I am curious to know what I could be doing wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piphy ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 10 September 2006
MediaBistro is a valid source re: WP:RS and should be included as a source.
Some viewing figures are only available to the general public through third parties such as MediaBistro as they are not widely published.
The removal of MediaBistro as a source leaves many gaps in the Ratings section of the article - so many as to seriously degrade the quality of that section.
MediaBistro is widely read throughout the industry and is inluded in PC Mag's top 101 website and Forbes' favorite etc. For more see here: http://www.mediabistro.com/aboutus/ 0-8 12:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with the notion that FoxNews tells its news from a conservative viewpoint. However, FoxNews is not a conservative enterprise as CNN news is not a liberal enterprise. To label it like that is POV. The introduction of CNN makes no mention of its ideology, neither does the introduction of MSNBC call it a liberal cable news station.
Be fair and consistent. Placing that ideological descriptor in the intro is not NPOV. Ramsquire 16:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Calling a person or organization liberal or conservative is most definitely POV, but a properly-sourced statement indicating that person or organization has an established reputation for having a particular political slant is NPOV, provided that POV-loaded terms like "left" and "right" are not used. Even then, it shouldn't be put in the intro, which is supposed to be an identifier/definer. 147.70.242.40 00:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Simply moving this down to the bottom of the page; it's the discussion of the moment, and should be at the bottom of the page. -- Aaron 22:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Moving my new reply to AuburnPilot here as requested:
While prior discussion is useful and relevant, it does not mean that the results of that discussion are set in stone for all time. I am discussing the material right here, as I have repeatedly, and so stop talking about this page as if we aren't actually using it. You haven't made a single argument for why the information is supposedly "not relevant" to the intro, you have just repeated that over and over again as if it were a fact. The intro is for an overview of the subject of the article and for touching on major points regarding that subject, including widespread public perception of that subject. (See the intro to the Ted Kennedy article for a good, brief, neutral overview of public perception of him.) To not mention the fact that Fox is widely seen as conservative is overlooking a major fact about the subject of the article. To pretend this perception does not exist does not serve neutrality, it is just dodging the issue. Gamaliel 22:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
broadway musical producer? Isarig 18:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding myself damn close to walking away from Wikipedia entirely (for reasons that don't have anything to do with this discussion or the actions of anyone in it), so forgive me if I keep this a little short. First, my apologies to User:Rama above for misinterpreting his post as a call to remerge the two articles. However, User:AuburnPilot's responses further down that thread branch do pretty much sum up my belief regarding how this matter should be dealt with in the opening paragraphs; we settled it a long, long time ago, so yes, some of are going to be a little pertubed by the whole thing coming up again now, WP:CCC notwithstanding. But more to the point, there seems to be a combination of two problems here:
1) Some editors are seeing the "FNC = conservative" meme as a blatant truism on its face, and are unwilling or unable (IMHO) to understand that many other editors do not agree with this at all, and instead find FNC to be the closest thing out there in the United States to a truly "fair and balanced" (no pun intended, I swear) cable news channel. Now, to me, as long as there's any meaningful amount of debate as to how true the "FNC = conservative" meme is, that means it is, at the very least, not an unquestionable truism, and all sides need to take that into consideration. (In fairness, I think progress has been made in this regard, albeit in fits and starts.)
2) Some editors, who are swayed to at least some extent by my contention (1) above, are now arguing (and this is a bit of a generalization, I admit) that, "Well, okay, but even if it's not unquestionably true, it's still believed by so many people that it deserves a mention in the introduction regardless." I have a lot of problems with this sort of argument, because it sort of puts an unfair burden on the Fox News Channel article that similar articles (such as CNN and MSNBC) do not have to bear. I would have no trouble coming up with literally hundreds of links to articles, blog posts, online discussions, etc, that would show that literally millions of Americans consider the TV "MSM" to be overwhelmingly biased towards a liberal POV (especially for CNN), and yet neither I nor anybody else is going out of our way to insinuate in the intros of CNN or MSNBC that either channel has a liberal bias (there are very occasional exceptions to this, but they get squashed instantly, sometimes by me personally). At the end of the day, I just have a big problem with the fact that some feel that FNC must have the accusations against it laid out at the very top, while CNN, MSNBC et al essentially never have to deal with similar allegations of bias against them at all.
I hope this makes some sense. And yeah, for me, this is a short comment! -- Aaron 00:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure saying that it's conservative is the same as saying that it has a conservative bias. Maybe it's just semantics, but the former seems less controversial to me, and therefore more acceptable for the introduction. I don't see why there's a problem with calling Fox conservative any more than classifying a particular newspaper is liberal or conservative, which seems pretty common. Cordless Larry 17:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Heh...I should have guessed this was a hot topic of discussion - I just deleted this phrase from the introduction "Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies." Not because I take a stand on the discussion here, but because "...widely seen by critics..." is a clear violation of the Weasel Words policy. If the decision here is to mention bias in the introduction, it should be done so without Weasel Words. ("According to the <some notable study>, Fox News is..." 68.205.119.151 06:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The one very sad thing that many of you have forgotten is rather simple: WP:NPOV. One particular sentence will probably be attractive so most of you: "Remember that readers will probably not take kindly to moralising. If you do not allow the facts to speak for themselves you may alienate readers and turn them against your position." What you are alleging here is something that is not fact. Let's stick to the facts - saying "Fox News is widely seen as conservative" is not factual - it's not verifiable. It's opinion. -- Mrmiscellanious 06:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
At the same time, the single news outlet that strikes most journalists as taking a particular ideological stance - either liberal or conservative - is Fox News Channel. Among national journalists, more than twice as many could identify a daily news organization that they think is "especially conservative in its coverage" than one they believe is "especially liberal" (82% vs. 38%). And Fox has by far the highest profile as a conservative news organization; it was cited unprompted by 69% of national journalists. The New York Times was most often mentioned as the national daily news organization that takes a decidedly liberal point of view, but only by 20% of the national sample.
— http://stateofthemedia.com/journalist_survey_prc.asp, State of the Media 2004, Journalist survey
Doldrums 19:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:WEASEL is a guideline, not policy, and neither one should substitute for common sense. Is anyone seriously suggesting large amounts of people do not perceive Fox as conservative? The place for citations and identifying specific critics is in the bulk of the article, not the introduction, which should be a broad overview of important issues. Identifing specific critics is not compatible with a broad overview. Gamaliel 20:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I think Tbeatty's move is a good one. All information is still in the article, but in a more appropriate section. I've tried to compromise on this situation; it would be nice if there was some compromise from the other side. It does not have to be in the intro. The History section is a perfect place for the information. AuburnPilot Talk 05:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose the second paragraph of the introduction of the article reads as follows:
Ramsquire 20:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
With so much indication that Fox News is indeed well to the right of most mainstream television media (and arguably other forms as well), it seems decidedly POV for everyone to go to such great lengths to keep it out of the introduction. I would be willing to wager that if everyone asked 10 people they know what comes to mind when you say "Fox News", more than 5 would mention some sort of controversy regarding their alleged bias (be it defensive or offensive). Why act like it shouldn't be mentioned, especially now that we've had a large number of verifiable sources. / Blaxthos 21:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
No one s saying that it shouldn't be mentioned. But Fox has a number of things they are known for and to single out perceived bias as what should be mentioned in the intro is simply POV. If we don;t limit it to jsut the necessary introductory facts it will grow into something unwieldy. "Bias" is a legitmate criticism and history and it belongs in those sections. We wouldn't put Swift Boat veteran quotes in the intro to John Kerry no matter that they have been foloowing him his entire adult life. It is an aspect but not a summary. -- Tbeatty 22:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to see some examples of fox's bias...like how they defended Mel Gibson based on the fact "There are more important thing to worry about." This apparentley doesn't apply to Jon Benet Ramsey. Also, their amount of conserative versus liberal hosts should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robert1991 ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done some research (currently ongoing) to verify some of the cite-needed and currently disputed issues. I have not incorporated any references into the article (yet), but I think they're good talking points.
{{
cite journal}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help){{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)Plenty more research is forthcoming, but I figured this is a good starting point. / Blaxthos 16:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you claim the second reference as original research? The research was done by university professors and researches, and published by UC Berkeley. Additionally, the research bolsters/gives tangeable proof to claims made by others (and by the first reference) -- solid numbers countrywide that show that the presence of Fox News increases conservative voting in virtually all districts (read the research). I fail to see how this qualifies as original research (when it's independantly published, verifiable, peer reviewed). Maybe I'm missing something... / Blaxthos 15:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
We're not using this research to say "Fox News is biased." We're using the research to say (paraphrased) "Research shows that the number of Repblican votes increased in each market as Fox News channel became available." It gives tangable (verifiable & duplicated) proof that the presence of Fox News has increased Republican votes. It neither speculates why nor attempts to draw conclusions. / Blaxthos 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia articles should not maintain schedules. The broadcast schedule listed here should obviously be removed. Currently, the only purpose I see that it servers is that it provides convenient links to Fox News shows and personalities, I'm thinking of deleting the schedule, and replacing it with a list of Fox News shows. Comments? Cbuhl79 17:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
It was my mistake to remove this statement to begin with, as I apparently had a very large brain fart and completely mis-read what the statement said (it was early in the morning, and I apologize). However, there are still a few issues with this statement which is why I have added two templates to it. First of all, 'generally' is a weasel word in this statement. How often is 'generally'? 60% of the time? 90%? If it's only sometimes then I don't see the benefit or relevance of even including it! I also added a standard fact template since it's...well...unsourced. NcSchu( Talk) 16:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Fox news has a clear slant or bias towards the Republican Party. This is fine. There is a radio network named Air America out there with a clear slant towards the Democratic party.
The problem is that Fox news denies their bias which is dishonest. Further this article by ignoring this whole issue is not being honest or truthful. 01001 20:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Listen, until Fox says they’re right wing, or there is an unbiased report saying so (I believe there have been several to the contrary), the article shan’t contain “right wing”, “republican”, or “propaganda”. And now comes the time I pick apart your previous statements: 1.It may well be that CNN has a liberal bias, although a very strong logical argument can be made that it has a right wing bias or at least a corporate bias. Ok, first off…you just negated your premise, and then negated the negation. 2.But clearly, CNN does not pretend to be that which it isnt at least not to the extent of Fox News. So CNN doesn’t pretend to not be a liberal leaning network? Then they’ve admitted it, or at least have addressed it in some fashion. Oh, they haven't? Then why pick on FNC because you think they're so obviously rw. Squiggyfm 07:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting heated real quick lets step back and think about this. Try to view it from the other persons viewpoint both sides have some valid arguments thanks-- Soliscjw 20:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a statement such as:
would suffice? -- Nantonos 07:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem with putting FoxNews is a conservative news operation in the introduction is that it may be misleading. It gives the impression that it is a conservative enterprise. It's a news enterprise with a conservative slant. To use an extreme example, Al Jazeera is a news operation that is, let's just say skeptical of the US and the West in the War on Terror, but it would be wrong, and POV, to label it a terrorist news network here at Wiki. However, that criticism does belong in a controversies section. Same here. The conservative accusation belongs in the controversy section. Finally one note of correction, FoxNews does not support the Republican party, it supports the conservative movement. If a Republican, let's say McCain, steps outside of the conservative movement, they will get treated just as every other liberal, and if Democrat adopts a conservative position, they will get the red carpet treatment. See Lieberman. Ramsquire 17:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
This does not need to be mentioned in the intro. There is an entire article devoted to controversies with a section in the article pointing to it. It is not intro material. AuburnPilot Talk 19:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that if all else fails, you can note that EVERY COMMENTATOR IS RIGHT WING. Excuse my shouting but you and I both know it. (I won't dignity it by using the word "conservative" that is too often abused by neocons). I don't count Colmes, who is somewhere middle of the road and never gets his way anyway. I also think the whoel argument was given away by the guy who said something like "If a Republican ever goes bad, Fox will hound him like a liberal." Gee, ya think maybe they're not fair and balanced after all? It is QUITE CLEAR that (a) Rupert Murdoch is right wing as they come and (b) Fox News is 100% for the Republican Party regardless of whether the Republicans adhere to conservative principles (like less government interference in private lives!). So why does this article make Fox News sound like a bastion of impartiality?
davert
In the last few edits, the addition of this tag happened to the article. I am wondering, was the addition of this article encompassing the entire article or a section of the article that needs work? Chris 04:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
An issue in the past of this article, and possibly to come around again, but how exactly should the article go about possibly introducing the idea of the network's bias in the introduction? One of the latest edits have returned it into the introduction. Chris ( Talk) ( Contribs) 23:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt this highly controversial subject be added in this section?? The very basis of Fox news as a fair organisation (self appointed) would be up for discussion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYA2zFsCK8 Chrisp7 21:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
When Fox is discussed, when people search Wiki for FNC, there should be something in the first section and its own section about FNC bias. That's the major issue with FNC, that's what people want to discuss when it comes to FNC. This article really commits the crime of ommission by leaving all that stuff to the separate article. I corrected the obviously bogus implication that Fox and CNN receive equal amounts of criticism but I would like to see this article rewritten in a more reader-friendly style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.54.179 ( talk • contribs) 6 September 2006
This part of the article is a serious problem. In my opinion, we should have the heading "Controversies ..." etc. followed by a very short, NPOV statement stating the main areas the corresponding article covers. What we should not have is a selection of the criticisms themselves, especially since they have been placed here without any opposing views. Can't we at least agree on this simple point? Edders 20:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Controversies concerning bias etc. should stay in their respective articles, and not spill over into the main Fox News piece, which many people use simply to look up technical things such as ratings, well-known employees, where it airs etc. Edders 20:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.54.179 ( talk • contribs) 7 September 2006
unsigned2|7 September 2006|141.149.54.179: You seriously need to calm down. Insinuating that other editors are either partisans or mentally retarded, just because they disagree with you; destroys the chances of people reaching a consensus on issues. Don't forget that wikipedia asks you assume good faith on the part of other editors, most of whom are simply dedicated to making a more encyclopedic article. Again, keep all controversies and criticisms relating to bias in their appropriate article. When you start adding pieces from that article to this one you have to balance them with counter-arguments or defences, which will inevitably turn a small section into a big one. The unwarranted amount of criticism stuffed into the con/crit, section in this article is an eyesore - readers will scroll through an article that looks (mostly) professional and encyclopedic only to hit a massive pile of POV that ruins it. Sadly, the vast majority of discussion concerning this article revolves around the controversy and criticism section, something that needs to be addressed by moving it to the proper place. Edders 10:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I recently created a FREE Fox Radio tool bar that links to Fox Radio,a nd most of the links on FoxNews.com My link has been removed by some, stating that it was not relevant. If a tool bar about Fox news (that contains NO spyware, No spam and No ads) is not relavant to the External links -- then what is? I am curious to know what I could be doing wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piphy ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 10 September 2006
MediaBistro is a valid source re: WP:RS and should be included as a source.
Some viewing figures are only available to the general public through third parties such as MediaBistro as they are not widely published.
The removal of MediaBistro as a source leaves many gaps in the Ratings section of the article - so many as to seriously degrade the quality of that section.
MediaBistro is widely read throughout the industry and is inluded in PC Mag's top 101 website and Forbes' favorite etc. For more see here: http://www.mediabistro.com/aboutus/ 0-8 12:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with the notion that FoxNews tells its news from a conservative viewpoint. However, FoxNews is not a conservative enterprise as CNN news is not a liberal enterprise. To label it like that is POV. The introduction of CNN makes no mention of its ideology, neither does the introduction of MSNBC call it a liberal cable news station.
Be fair and consistent. Placing that ideological descriptor in the intro is not NPOV. Ramsquire 16:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Calling a person or organization liberal or conservative is most definitely POV, but a properly-sourced statement indicating that person or organization has an established reputation for having a particular political slant is NPOV, provided that POV-loaded terms like "left" and "right" are not used. Even then, it shouldn't be put in the intro, which is supposed to be an identifier/definer. 147.70.242.40 00:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Simply moving this down to the bottom of the page; it's the discussion of the moment, and should be at the bottom of the page. -- Aaron 22:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Moving my new reply to AuburnPilot here as requested:
While prior discussion is useful and relevant, it does not mean that the results of that discussion are set in stone for all time. I am discussing the material right here, as I have repeatedly, and so stop talking about this page as if we aren't actually using it. You haven't made a single argument for why the information is supposedly "not relevant" to the intro, you have just repeated that over and over again as if it were a fact. The intro is for an overview of the subject of the article and for touching on major points regarding that subject, including widespread public perception of that subject. (See the intro to the Ted Kennedy article for a good, brief, neutral overview of public perception of him.) To not mention the fact that Fox is widely seen as conservative is overlooking a major fact about the subject of the article. To pretend this perception does not exist does not serve neutrality, it is just dodging the issue. Gamaliel 22:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
broadway musical producer? Isarig 18:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding myself damn close to walking away from Wikipedia entirely (for reasons that don't have anything to do with this discussion or the actions of anyone in it), so forgive me if I keep this a little short. First, my apologies to User:Rama above for misinterpreting his post as a call to remerge the two articles. However, User:AuburnPilot's responses further down that thread branch do pretty much sum up my belief regarding how this matter should be dealt with in the opening paragraphs; we settled it a long, long time ago, so yes, some of are going to be a little pertubed by the whole thing coming up again now, WP:CCC notwithstanding. But more to the point, there seems to be a combination of two problems here:
1) Some editors are seeing the "FNC = conservative" meme as a blatant truism on its face, and are unwilling or unable (IMHO) to understand that many other editors do not agree with this at all, and instead find FNC to be the closest thing out there in the United States to a truly "fair and balanced" (no pun intended, I swear) cable news channel. Now, to me, as long as there's any meaningful amount of debate as to how true the "FNC = conservative" meme is, that means it is, at the very least, not an unquestionable truism, and all sides need to take that into consideration. (In fairness, I think progress has been made in this regard, albeit in fits and starts.)
2) Some editors, who are swayed to at least some extent by my contention (1) above, are now arguing (and this is a bit of a generalization, I admit) that, "Well, okay, but even if it's not unquestionably true, it's still believed by so many people that it deserves a mention in the introduction regardless." I have a lot of problems with this sort of argument, because it sort of puts an unfair burden on the Fox News Channel article that similar articles (such as CNN and MSNBC) do not have to bear. I would have no trouble coming up with literally hundreds of links to articles, blog posts, online discussions, etc, that would show that literally millions of Americans consider the TV "MSM" to be overwhelmingly biased towards a liberal POV (especially for CNN), and yet neither I nor anybody else is going out of our way to insinuate in the intros of CNN or MSNBC that either channel has a liberal bias (there are very occasional exceptions to this, but they get squashed instantly, sometimes by me personally). At the end of the day, I just have a big problem with the fact that some feel that FNC must have the accusations against it laid out at the very top, while CNN, MSNBC et al essentially never have to deal with similar allegations of bias against them at all.
I hope this makes some sense. And yeah, for me, this is a short comment! -- Aaron 00:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure saying that it's conservative is the same as saying that it has a conservative bias. Maybe it's just semantics, but the former seems less controversial to me, and therefore more acceptable for the introduction. I don't see why there's a problem with calling Fox conservative any more than classifying a particular newspaper is liberal or conservative, which seems pretty common. Cordless Larry 17:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Heh...I should have guessed this was a hot topic of discussion - I just deleted this phrase from the introduction "Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies." Not because I take a stand on the discussion here, but because "...widely seen by critics..." is a clear violation of the Weasel Words policy. If the decision here is to mention bias in the introduction, it should be done so without Weasel Words. ("According to the <some notable study>, Fox News is..." 68.205.119.151 06:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The one very sad thing that many of you have forgotten is rather simple: WP:NPOV. One particular sentence will probably be attractive so most of you: "Remember that readers will probably not take kindly to moralising. If you do not allow the facts to speak for themselves you may alienate readers and turn them against your position." What you are alleging here is something that is not fact. Let's stick to the facts - saying "Fox News is widely seen as conservative" is not factual - it's not verifiable. It's opinion. -- Mrmiscellanious 06:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
At the same time, the single news outlet that strikes most journalists as taking a particular ideological stance - either liberal or conservative - is Fox News Channel. Among national journalists, more than twice as many could identify a daily news organization that they think is "especially conservative in its coverage" than one they believe is "especially liberal" (82% vs. 38%). And Fox has by far the highest profile as a conservative news organization; it was cited unprompted by 69% of national journalists. The New York Times was most often mentioned as the national daily news organization that takes a decidedly liberal point of view, but only by 20% of the national sample.
— http://stateofthemedia.com/journalist_survey_prc.asp, State of the Media 2004, Journalist survey
Doldrums 19:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:WEASEL is a guideline, not policy, and neither one should substitute for common sense. Is anyone seriously suggesting large amounts of people do not perceive Fox as conservative? The place for citations and identifying specific critics is in the bulk of the article, not the introduction, which should be a broad overview of important issues. Identifing specific critics is not compatible with a broad overview. Gamaliel 20:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I think Tbeatty's move is a good one. All information is still in the article, but in a more appropriate section. I've tried to compromise on this situation; it would be nice if there was some compromise from the other side. It does not have to be in the intro. The History section is a perfect place for the information. AuburnPilot Talk 05:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose the second paragraph of the introduction of the article reads as follows:
Ramsquire 20:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
With so much indication that Fox News is indeed well to the right of most mainstream television media (and arguably other forms as well), it seems decidedly POV for everyone to go to such great lengths to keep it out of the introduction. I would be willing to wager that if everyone asked 10 people they know what comes to mind when you say "Fox News", more than 5 would mention some sort of controversy regarding their alleged bias (be it defensive or offensive). Why act like it shouldn't be mentioned, especially now that we've had a large number of verifiable sources. / Blaxthos 21:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
No one s saying that it shouldn't be mentioned. But Fox has a number of things they are known for and to single out perceived bias as what should be mentioned in the intro is simply POV. If we don;t limit it to jsut the necessary introductory facts it will grow into something unwieldy. "Bias" is a legitmate criticism and history and it belongs in those sections. We wouldn't put Swift Boat veteran quotes in the intro to John Kerry no matter that they have been foloowing him his entire adult life. It is an aspect but not a summary. -- Tbeatty 22:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to see some examples of fox's bias...like how they defended Mel Gibson based on the fact "There are more important thing to worry about." This apparentley doesn't apply to Jon Benet Ramsey. Also, their amount of conserative versus liberal hosts should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robert1991 ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done some research (currently ongoing) to verify some of the cite-needed and currently disputed issues. I have not incorporated any references into the article (yet), but I think they're good talking points.
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help)Plenty more research is forthcoming, but I figured this is a good starting point. / Blaxthos 16:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you claim the second reference as original research? The research was done by university professors and researches, and published by UC Berkeley. Additionally, the research bolsters/gives tangeable proof to claims made by others (and by the first reference) -- solid numbers countrywide that show that the presence of Fox News increases conservative voting in virtually all districts (read the research). I fail to see how this qualifies as original research (when it's independantly published, verifiable, peer reviewed). Maybe I'm missing something... / Blaxthos 15:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
We're not using this research to say "Fox News is biased." We're using the research to say (paraphrased) "Research shows that the number of Repblican votes increased in each market as Fox News channel became available." It gives tangable (verifiable & duplicated) proof that the presence of Fox News has increased Republican votes. It neither speculates why nor attempts to draw conclusions. / Blaxthos 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia articles should not maintain schedules. The broadcast schedule listed here should obviously be removed. Currently, the only purpose I see that it servers is that it provides convenient links to Fox News shows and personalities, I'm thinking of deleting the schedule, and replacing it with a list of Fox News shows. Comments? Cbuhl79 17:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
It was my mistake to remove this statement to begin with, as I apparently had a very large brain fart and completely mis-read what the statement said (it was early in the morning, and I apologize). However, there are still a few issues with this statement which is why I have added two templates to it. First of all, 'generally' is a weasel word in this statement. How often is 'generally'? 60% of the time? 90%? If it's only sometimes then I don't see the benefit or relevance of even including it! I also added a standard fact template since it's...well...unsourced. NcSchu( Talk) 16:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)