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Since crazieddie has taken himself out of the negotiations due to my continued participation, I have removed the version that noone favors, and put in the version that at least one of us favors (yours truly), and I have put it in a new "Fox viewers", section. I could not put it in the allegations of bias section without compromising my scientific integrity, however if someone elses feels they can do so without qualms I will support the compromise of including it in there. The reason I have been only deleting it previously, was because it was I could not in good faith put my compromise in that section, since I think scientifically, this study is unrelated to biased news coverage. I am not taking the position that Fox news is unbiased, just that this study did not study Fox news coverage, biased or not.-- Silverback 08:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have not removed myself from the negotiations. Tim, what are our options here? I'm tired of Silverback's unilateral editing, and I'm tired of his failure to compromise. I can work with somebody who holds Silverback's views, but not with someone with his attitude.
To Silverback's objections to this bulletpoint:
We seem to be getting further from, not closer to, a compromise, and I believe this to be because of Silverback's refusal to compromise. I am fully willing to compromise, and, in fact, have leaned over backwards to do so, and have done my best to suggest compromise solutions that take Silverback's objections into account. He hasn't done the same, and I'm sick and tired of doing his job as well as mine. Unless there is strong consensus against it, I would like to request mediation, with the goal of encouraging Silverback to compromise or else remove him from the discussion so we can do our job. Either that, or determining if I'm out of line, in which case, I'll try to improve myself. I am not removing myself from this negotiation! crazyeddie 19:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, only noticied this after I wrote that: "The version I removed was one none of us favors, why are you reverting back to it when you don't favor it?"
Until we can work out a compromise bulletpoint, we should keep the previous version. Removing the previous version (which was at least "good enough") while we are still working on the new compromise version is disrespectful. At most, we should make note that we are working on an new version, and invite readers to help out. I believe that there is strong consensus for keeping this bulletpoint, at least in some version, but perhaps I'm wrong.
Who is in favor of keeping some form of this bulletpoint? Who is against?
I'm, of course, for keeping it. crazyeddie 19:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
However, I must add that the circumstances were unusual, in that it involved a problem user, who had a penchant for reverting ad absurdum, and eventually led to arbitration. The "stopgap" was implemented as an attempt to stop the endless reverts and page protections, without conceding to brute force tactics. I doubt that this is the circumstance here. In any case, when someone posses a question, as crazzyeddie just did, they usually really want the answers; they are usually not being rhetorical, though from my experience they seem to all too often be interpreted as such, and this tends to be an obstacle to productive discussion. Kevin Baas talk 20:07, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
I am most certainly not being rhetorical. I understood that there was consensus for keeping this bulletpoint. Based on this, I am assuming that the purpose of this discussion is to work out a new compromise version to replace the existing version. (This existing version is a compromise worked out by Trodel, Tim Ivorson and myself. It has been in place for some time. Several months I think?) Silverback has twice removed the bulletpoint, while this discussion was going on, without consulting anybody. I believe these actions gives me a right to be a little bit hot under the collar. If I am wrong, and there is a consensus that the bulletpoint should be removed, then I will most humbly apologize. Silverback has "proposed" removing the bulletpoint. I would like to have a formal vote on this issue, with the stipulation that double jeopardy applies. Not permamently, I'd just like the issued settled for, say, the next three months.
Assuming that it is the consensus that some form of this bulletpoint is to be kept, then the next step is to work out a new compromise. Silverback did propose alternate versions, but these versions contravened certain principles that I believe to have been laid out by the consensus. If it is the consensus that this bulletpoint be kept in some form, and that the present form be replaced by a fresh compromise version, and if Silverback is willing to work with us to create this compromise version, then I would like to have a formal vote on those principles as well.
If Silverback agrees to work within those principles, then I am willing to work with him. crazyeddie 19:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the record, check the Talk:FOX News/Allegations of Bias archive. Trodel did the heavy lifting, so I don't show up in the actual article's page history for that period. But I was involved, along with Trodel and Tim Ivorson, in the negotiation that produced this version:
The purpose of that rewrite was to shorten the entire Allegations of Bias section to managable length. From the talk archive, it looks like it went into effect late in January. crazyeddie 07:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Crazyeddie, Fox wasn't so much worse. Fox just had more Bush supporters among its viewers. Read the report. And note that they make a point that it was "Bush supporters", not "republicans", because bush support was a predictor even among democrats and was more important than party affiliation.
The purpose of the entry we are discussing is about a NPOV and fair representation of the scientific points of the report as they relate to Fox, and to this article which is about Fox News. This approach of yours is misguided, I quote: "If the critics of Fox believe this report tends to show bias at Fox (which they clearly do), then we need to say why they believe this, and give the defenders of Fox a chance to respond." Just because the critics use this report is no reason to misrepresent the evidence it provides. If you want to explain why critics believe things about this report, you are welcome to include quotes from those critics, but we should not distort the report to support their views. It doesn't even have to be quotes, if you think you can fairly summarize and document their views. I have not opposed opinions in the article that are critical of Fox, or even those that misrepresent this report if they are significant opinions. But it is not up to us to misrepresent the report.-- Silverback 20:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For purposes of my response, let me call this quote 1-- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Call this quote 2-- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also omitted by you is the following:
Call this quote 3 -- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Call this comment 1 -- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your last reply has been awkwardly long, so I apologise if I have taken longer than expected to reply. Your first point about the word "significant" does not seem particularly relevant to this discussion; I have always interpreted "significant" to mean "statistically significant" if they are speaking within the context of discussing a finding from the results. Furthermore, your point about the relationship between the "significance" of a finding and that of sample size (esp with relation to FOX)appears rather irrelevant, simply because on page 14 the quote you have referenced states:
A larger sample size for FOX viewers stems simply from the fact that FOX is the "most watched cable news channel", as noted by the article on FOX News itself. Your subsequent sub-points about FOX is also quite irrelevant simply because you have not shown that the smaller sample size for all the other news networks viewers were small enough such that the findings are out of the +/- 5% margin of error this study uses. Hence the finding within that section stands.
Now I'll address your claim that you think support for President Bush appears to be playing a large role (ie. has not been removed to account for lopsided level of misperception for FOX viewers). If I am not wrong, the statistical method they employed, logistic regression analysis, allows for the determination of the relative strength several factors in predicting a known result. Hence within the 2nd regression analysis , it does appear to me as if the intention to vote Bush was excluded, or adjusted in a way such that it did not affect the findings for FOX significantly. Note that:
and
which suggests to me the 2nd regression analysis did take into account the first, which treated the factor intention to vote Bush separately from the choice of news networks. Furthermore, if you were correct about the factor about the intention for voting for Bush not being excluded, then you would be alleging that the above quote from page 25 were a complete contradiction to the results to the study, something you have not proven. This is not something which, as you claim, was a mere pontification. The bolded part of the sentence clearly indicates that the political orientations of the audience of the various news networks were already factored into the study. You seem to be interpreting the word "suggests" too literally.
I have ignored your speculative point about "If the networks were evaluated independently instead of having their predictive power aggregated in this second predictor, Fox itself may be behind support for the democratic candidate and education as predictors" simply because I do not think you were right about your analysis reached before assuming this conclusion.
Now I'll address your point on the level of attention to the news. The following clearly states that it is FOX's viewers which are more likely (statistically significant here) to misperceive the more they are exposed to FOX.:
Of course there are dozens of possible explanations for this phenomena, one of which (I do not rule out) that supporters of Bush may tend to watch FOX longer than others, which does explain. But then, supposing I accept ALL your reasoning about the presence of Bush supporters playing a large role in the findings of misperceptions. This still doesn't explain why Bush supporters tend to watch FOX news, or as you put it, why "FOX had more Bush supporters". Care to suggest an explanation here? Does it really matter whether the study takes into account the ranking of "level of attention to news" with respect to the 4 most important factors? What really matters here is the statistical significance; NONE of the news networks' viewers EXCEPT FOX had "level of attention" calculated as a statistically significant factor in likelihood of misperception. This itself is an important result, irrelevant of ranking (Ranking doesn't matter because we haven't agreed only to include results from the 4 most important factors or something like that).
Also, the study does not "leaves us in ignorance" (or at least not purposefully in a political sense). Do you really expect every single datum from the analysis of all the news networks to be included within that article in PSQ? As for the part on "in some cases this occurred with CNN viewers as well", the authors were referring to the fact that:
As for your claim that the authors were "treating increased misperceptions with increasing attention, separately from decreased misperceptions with decreased attention, as in the print media", I could find no evidence for such except for the first part of your statement which I quoted:
In other words, CNN viewers were slightly different from others in that increased level of attention paid meant that they had lower levels of misperceptions on WMD in Iraq and world opinion, but increased attention was correlated positively with greater likelihood to misperceive on links to al-Qaeda. The part on the print media audience also seems a little confused:
which seems to conflict with
unless in the first case they were specifically referring to the slight anomally of the question for print media audience on whether WMD had been found:
Either that, or it must have been some typographical error with the first quote above (probably writing "lower levels of attention" instead of "higher levels of attention").
As for the reason as to why the figures for the print media audience did not appear in the later comparison of the level of attention to the different news networks, it could be due to the fact that it is entirely a matter of statistical significance :
I do not think the that the data has been "selectively left out". They could have done so for the purposes of readability. I believe I have addressed most of the points you have raised and clarified the validity of the quotes I have invoked. Thank you for reading this. Ethereal 17:13, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
It turns out Silverback was wrong on whether the 2nd regression analysis included FOX's Bush supporters or not. Or so it seems, according to this link I provided quite some time ago but did not read quite carefully enough then [ [4]]. The quote within the news report reads:
A quote from the original PIPA article (the one which was replaced by the PSQ version) [5] also seems to back this up:
I guess we can agree that it is poorly worded, because "no collaborative relationship" is not inconsistent with "Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda, but was not involved in the September 11th attacks" either. BTW, do you recall whether the 9/11 report was issued before or after the PIPA surveys?-- Silverback 22:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And I think it would be just plaing wrong to leave out information solely on the basis that it impugns or seems to insult the intellegence" of any given group of people. The truth is not always "polite", and to hold an encyclopeda to that restriction would be to sacrifice its ability to communicate reality for the sake of pandering to the sentiment of a few people. That something offends a particular group of people is not neccessarily an objection. (provided it is not simply abusive) Information reliability and proportional representation (i.e. factual accuracy and NPOV) are the basi upon which valid objections are made. For example, a bigoted statement (that might be ad hominem abusive (i.e. offensive, w/no logical validity) in form), can be objected to on the basis of both information reliability and proportional representation. However, "The 9/11 Commission report (which is "original research" if the PIPA report is "original research") states that the United States government did not have any credible evidence that Saddam Hussien possesed any WMD.", is factually accurate and represents empirical data in due proportion, (given that it's in context, and the information around it represents other facts commensurably), though it is not entirely "polite" to the POV, promulgated by the Bush Adminstration, that the exact opposite was true.
Kevin Baas
talk 06:26, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)
Let's put this No original research argument to rest by noting the following from the Wikipedia project page:
The PIPA report was both reported in the news [6] and published in a peer-reviewed journal (PSQ) [7]. Hence there's no argument against its inclusion. I hereby state that all attempts to remove it is clearly unjustified from now on. Ethereal 16:40, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Ethereal, in your reason for removing the information where the CBS figure was higher than Fox's you are being more discriminating the PIPA was in their report, I quote, and add a highlight:
Note also, immediately following, is another quote where Fox is not the highest:
Btw, we have to be careful about which data the statements are about, for instance the question about substantial support appears to have been asked alone in some instances, and as part of a 4 part answer in others, and when used as part of the four part answer, the first part was the direct support to al Qaeda and the substantial support component was analyzed in combonation with it below in another instance in which CBS figures are higher than Fox's:
This quote from the peer reviewed version, shows that it also used four part answers in some instances:
The surveys that serve as raw data were apparently not consistently designed with a peer review publication in mind, but rather a publishable study was attempted to be made out of them after the fact, not all survived peer review, and it looks to me like more survived peer review than should have. It seems clear that the report analyzes data from several surveys, and that for the questions we are interested there are at least two separate grouping of data. The necessary "predictor" demographic and preference attitude and party affiliation data, may not be present to the same extent of completeness in both.
In fairness, shouldn't we also include these results from the four part answers, in which CBS shows worse than Fox. Based on what PIPA publicized and also emphasized in their non-peer reviewed report, it seems they were after Fox and not CBS, but we don't need to retain that bias.-- Silverback 11:59, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To show that I am willing to compromise, Silverback, I now state that I am now willing to allow the figures for the poll question on which CBS scored higher than FOX. However, this does not detract from the fact that overall, it was found that FOX was a consistently more significant predictor of viewership misperception than CBS, even when the influence of Bush supporters have been removed from the analysis. Ethereal 15:06, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would also like to see that poll question included. However, I would like it to be give a seperate subpoint, and I would like to see the percentages for the other news sources, not just Fox and CBS. According to Figure 1 on page 575, 40% of sample had none the misperceptions in question and 60% had one or more. According to Table 4 on page 582, both Fox and CBS had a greater proportion of respondants with one or more misperceptions, while CNN, NBC, print media and NPR/PBS repondants had a lower proportion. (ABC was about par for the course, give or take a percentage point.)
It would appear that both Fox and CBS are "biased" in the same direction, but Fox more so than CBS. I don't find it all that shocking that CBS pulled out ahead of Fox on one single question. Giving CBS's percentage, but not the other new sources', would tend to make the reader think of CBS as a neutral "control". ABC would be a better reference point, or better yet, all the news sources. crazyeddie 22:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Faux News" (the name, not the website) appear to be quite notable indeed. See: [8] Ethereal 04:45, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have sent an email to PIPA regarding Silverback's specific claim that the second regression analysis on page 22 took into account Bush supporters among FOX viewers. It turns out that the answer was yes (and Silverback was wrong). The following is the (unedited and original) email from PIPA:
(Emphasis added)
Kevin Baas talk has also kindly uploaded the attached file (.doc file) here: [9]. So you see, Silverback, the reason for exclusion is really because of readability and not political bias (PSQ exluded it not PIPA). So far I have gone to the extent of
It would interesting to see what else you can come up with next. Ethereal 02:45, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Which we have made note of. Again, I'm not sure how much of an effect it has. Some, probably, but which way? Unfortunately, this study wasn't set up to control for that. But I don't think this flaw is serious enough to require the removal of the bullet point, so long as we make a note of it. crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Granted. But bias is a strong candidate for casual agent. If FNC is only perceived to be biased towards Bush, the Iraq War, etc., then that might attract viewers who have a pre-existing bias themselves. On the other hand, if FNC is really biased, then that might make viewers more likely to hold the views in question. Or there might be some third mystery factor. What we have so far strongly indicates that bias, whether perceived or real, might be a factor. More research would be needed to sort it out.
I've been forced to watch FNC at work this past week, and it seems to me that the editoral coverage, at least, was certainly biased when it came to the Terri Schiavo case. I'm afraid I wasn't around to watch the news reporting. I understand the difference between editorals and news, but does the average viewer?
It seems to me that media bias is the strongest candidate for causing the prevalance of misperceptions. It seems to me that holding these misperceptions causes support for the Iraq War and for Bush, not the other way around. One way to doublecheck would be to correlate for if repondants voted for Gore or for Bush in the election of 2000, which would indicate if the respondant supported Bush prior to 9/11 and the lead up to the Iraq War. Unfortunately, AFAICT, the poll didn't ask that question.
I find it interesting that Silverback brought up a while back the bit about more Bush supporters watching Fox. I haven't gotten that far into my read of the report yet, but the obvious question is why do more Bush supporters watch Fox? Perhaps we should include that datum in the bullet point as well? crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is possible to be biased and to accurately report the truth at the same time. Even if PIPA is biased, that does not invalidate their report. Until some flaw can be found in their report, attempting to prove that PIPA is biased is no more than an ad hominem attack. On the other hand, the fact that PBS/NPR and Fox viewers are once again on opposite ends of the spectrum on a view that strongly correlates with support for the Iraq War and for Bush is further evidence that Fox News is biased. Remember that the anti-Fox POV is trying to show that Fox is biased, not that Fox has failed in its journalistic mission - although there is some evidence supporting that conclusion, that isn't the name of the section, is it?
A Fox critic would think that the response on this particular question only shows that Fox is quite capable of shifting fact from fiction when it suits their nefarious ends. It is possible that PBS/NPR coverage is biased in way that is equal and opposite to Fox, but that is outside the scope of this article. It may even be that PBS/NPR has some failings in its journalistic intergrity, but I highly doubt it, and, besides, that would also be outside the scope of this article. Since this datum supports my POV's position, I fully support the inclusion of it into the bullet point. crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You seem to be of the (twisted) opinion that what counts as a misperception only applies only when there's a clear majority among those who were watching FOX. I don't see why this should be the case. If among FOX viewers we consistently found much greater likelihood (around +30% more likely) then we can safely conclude that FOX was being extremely biased. However this isn't the case, so we can say that FOX was being more biased as compared to the other networks (Mind you I already included CBS in the report), but this bias stops short of being complete nonsense. This clearly doesn't mean FOX wasn't biased. This is such a simple point I wonder why I have to point it out to you.
As for your speculation, I remind you that Wikipedia's articles are not a place for your right-wing POV speculations. And since when did we start talking about patriotism? Oh, I forgot, probably since we started conversing with you. Ethereal 03:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The anti-Fox thesis of this section is that Fox is biased towards the right. (While the pro-Fox POV is, persumably, that it isn't.) Here's the thesis right here:
"[N]umerous critics claim such slogans belie a network that has a conservative bias and tailors its news to support the Republican Party. Although most critics do not claim that all FOX News reporting is slanted, most allege that bias at FOX News is systemic."
The thesis is that Fox has a systemic, conservative, pro-Republican bias. Not that Fox is more biased than other news sources or even that it has a greater bias towards the right than other news sources. I certainly believe that all of these things are true, and I'm fairly certain, but not 100% postive, that FNC has failed in its journalistic mission. But that's neither here nor there. If you want to show that PBS and/or NPR is biased towards the left, do it in the appropriate article, not here.
<<you want to blame Fox bias for the misperceptions of its viewers.>>
The PIPA report, IMO, doesn't quite give enough evidence for this, but it comes rather close. For example, the likelihood of a Fox viewer having one or more of the misperceptions actually increased the more attention they paid to the news. This would imply that the greater the exposure to FNC, the more likely the viewer is to be deceived. Only imply, of course, not prove or be direct evidence of. More research would be needed to answer that question.
Fortunately, the anti-Fox POV isn't trying to show that Fox's bias is responsible for the misperceptions of its viewers. What the anti-Fox POV is trying to show is that the misperceptions of Fox's viewers (relative to the general population) implies that Fox is biased.
But like Kevin said, the purpose of this discussion is not to determine whether Fox is biased or whether the PIPA report is evidence of bias. The purpose of this discussion is to work out a compromise bulletpoint that summarizes the meat of the PIPA report and how it relates to the alledged bias of FNC. (Neutral being defined, IIRC, as giving a fair and accurate representation of the various POV's views.) Of secondary interest is the need to be concise.
This, of course, assumes that we are, in fact, agreed that we need a bulletpoint for the PIPA report. It seems that Silverback agreed to this while I wasn't looking. (Or was he only insisting on the inclusion of the "no connection" question?) Can we take it that this particular question is closed for good? If not, could we please settle it?
Assuming that we are agreed that we need a bulletpoint of some sort, let's get back to creating a bulletpoint that fairly takes into account both the pro- and anti-Fox POVs, while still being concise as possible. Why don't we each attempt to write a version, and take it from there? We can figure out which version is most salvagable and work from there to one that everybody is equally happy with. Or equally unhappy with, whatever. crazyeddie 08:23, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Like Silverback said, the shells were not found until after the survey. Even if the shells were WMDs, at the time "The US has found WMDs in Iraq" was a misperception. AFAICT, the survey has no factual flaws. The only question is how the survey and report relate to FNC and its aledged bias. So moving along... crazyeddie 21:11, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, interpreting the first statement as a misperception is also a factual flaw, "US has found clear evidence in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist organization". The medical treatment and sanctuary for al Zarqawi is enough to qualify as "working closely". This has already been discussed.-- Silverback 22:38, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
For goodness's sake, Silverback and Trodel, the current revision of the article with regard to the PIPA report already contains the questions directly quoted from the actual questionaire given out to the poll respondents. So, whatever possible interpretation you could have assigned the questions can also be given to the bulletpoints which is already included within the article. It is not our duty to determine what exactly the respondents have had in mind when they answered as they did. Isn't a direct copy-and-paste from the poll question sufficient enough? Ethereal 01:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The PIPA report was investigating three misperceptions that they believed were leading to support for the Iraq War, and why people were harboring them. They discovered that the most significant correlations were 1) support for the Iraq War, 2) intention to vote for Bush in the upcoming '04 elections, 3) what source the respondant was using for their primary source of news, 4) intention to vote for a Democratic candidate in the upcoming elections. It could be argued that, except for number 3, those correlations were a result of having the given misperceptions. At any rate, we are only worried about number 3.
Among the various news sources, Fox was the strongest predictor for having one or more of the misperceptions, as well as being the strongest predictor for each individual misperception. Even after accounting for the intention to vote for Bush or a Democratic candidate, party membership, as well as a host of other variables, Fox viewers were still more likely to hold these misperceptions. In addition, Fox viewers were the least likely to have a misperception that correlated with lack of support for the war - That there was "no connection" between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Also, Fox viewers came in second (but still significantly above the overall average) for two related views that, while not disproven, were widely believed to be false in the intelligence community.
So far, all this shows correlation, not causation. The causual relationship could go either way. It could be that watching Fox tends to cause people to hold the given misperceptions, or it could be that holding these misperceptions tends to cause people to watch Fox, or it could be that some third factor, not accounted for in the analysis, was causing both effects. The correlation is cause for suspicion, but it isn't exactly proof.
But add in this though: Among Fox viewers, those who very closely payed attention to the news were more likely, not less, than those who payed no attention to the news to hold the given misperceptions. This would seem to indicate that greater exposure to Fox coverage caused viewers to be more likely to hold the give misperceptions. It might be that having the misperceptions might cause Fox viewers to pay more attention to the news, but that's stretching things a bit, especially since the same effect wasn't seen with other news sources. (Aside from Fox, print media, and CNN, there was no correlation between the amount of attention payed to the news and holding the given misperceptions. The correlation was strongest with Fox. There was a slight tendency of having a lower rate of misperceptions with greater attention among print media readers, and a very slight tendency in the same direction with CNN viewers.)
The facts of the survey and of the report are not in dispute, only its interpertation. Which just means that we need to report both side's of the dispute interpertations, in accordance with the NPOV policy, not that the bulletpoint is in need of removal. crazyeddie 21:11, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is everybody agreed? crazyeddie 22:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea to make too long. Sooner or later, someone will say it ought to be removed because it's too long. And in any case, Silverback, I did compromise on one hidden aspect: on whether the fact that the regression analysis took into account Bush supporters of FOX viewers. The current revision (on reading) leaves open the possibility that Bush supporters among FOX viewers may account for the lopsided tendency of FOX viewers to misperceive, but as PIPA has said, that itself reflects a misreading of the study. I have compromised with you by not including that fact. Apart from that, I have also compromised on the following:
I think the others can see why I'm sick of this. I'll tolerate no attempts to remove the PIPA report, unless a sufficiently good reason can be given. For that reason to be sufficiently good, I am going to practise the very same tough standards Silverback has applied for the inclusion of the PIPA report in its current revision. Ethereal 03:47, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
silverback had an interesting question earlier, about how caring about world opinion affected misperceptions and/or support for the war.
the survey apparently included misperceptions about world opinion. it is pretentious to say that one :"cares" about world opnion if they don't even care enough about it to find out what it is. by this logic, it seems that misperceptions about world opninion would be a good indicator of how important it is to people.
and support for the war is in the survey, too. Kevin Baas talk 21:00, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
Well my logic is somewhat different, i wouldn't say that it's neccessarily correlated with fox viewers, (and the survey doesn't support that hypothesis). i'd say that caring/not caring is correlated with getting it right or not. I'd also say that this is correlated with support for the war, and that it's correlated with political attitude. (and to take it a step furter: not through intermediate variables) but i hypothesis that it has negligble, at best, correlation to fox, when those factors are compensated for.
I think you're making some generalizations there. Firstly, I am only familiar with Kerry being mocked for flip-flopping, which in actually he hasn't done. His voting record is very consistent. For example, he got an a+ from the league of conservation voters. if you look at other public interest groups who objectively rate voting patterns, you'll see that he rarely gets anything near a C, but more often an A or an F, depending on the nature of the interest group. Perhaps people who call or called kerry a flip-flopper are either just being a reapeter (i think this is most likely) or don't understand what to them would be "subtleties" in his elocution. And in any case, another part of Bush's negative campaign against kerry was calling him a crazy liberal, the most extreme-left in the senate (in actuality, kuccinich is generally considered the most left, and fiengold and boxer are considered the most progressive) - and one must ask, how can that be, if he's a flip-flopper? Wouldn't that imply that his views are very predictable (whatever "left" is), and thus very consistent? But that's enough with that absurdity.
the principles of democrats are very consistent, and their conviction and passion for them very strong. They're very basic, too:
Everything pretty much lines up. i'm sure i can expand, but i think i get the idea across. Kevin Baas talk 15:38, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
holding fingers to the political wind? is that a weather analogy? if so, i don't see how that's a bad thing. if there's a storm, i'm staying inside, if it's going to rain, i'm not going to work on the roof. - this kind of things are good to know, to help determine the best course of action. do in interpret this correctly?
ruling by the polls - what? Do you mean that they are more likely to consider differing opinions? this would align with lots of things in those bulletpoints above. Kevin Baas talk 15:38, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
And none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand. If you wish to continue this conversation, please do it at your own personal talk pages. Some of us would like to get some work done... crazyeddie 20:36, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
opps. right. sorry. Kevin Baas talk 21:43, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
On my hard copy, the "level of attention to news" factor was mentioned on pages 585-586 and page 590. (I'm working with a printed out hardcopy, so I'm afraid I can't give you what PDF page number these are on.) Here's the relevant passages verbatim (unless some typos snuck in - feel free to read the original, this is just for y'all's convenience). crazyeddie 19:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From page 585-586:
From page 590:
I agree that it isn't clear how it ranks in significance. But it is clear that it is significant. In the first quote, PIPA describes it like this: "In the case of those who primarily watched Fox, greater attention to news modestly increased the likelihood of misperceptions." In other words, the effect isn't huge, but it is present. I believe that this bit is important enough to warrant inclusion in the bulletpoint. Does anybody object? crazyeddie 17:45, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you wish to make other changes or additions to the bulletpoint, we can discuss them at a later time. I have other changes I would like to propose myself. But let's focus on one thing at a time and not get sidetracked. Do you have any objections to the inclusion of this bit on its own merits? Does anybody else have any objections to its inclusion? Does anybody want to express support for its inclusion? Is anybody undecided? crazyeddie 20:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't exactly proposing adding three paragraphs to the article. I was thinking more along the lines of a single sentence. We can figure out the exact form after we have determined that there is consensus for its inclusion. I have no wish to rehash this discussion a week from now - while I don't expect any compromise language to be final, I would like to have about three months of peace and quiet before somebody broaches editing the PIPA bulletpoint again. That's assuming that we eventually come to a true compromise. This current session has lasted since at least March, and we still have a lot of ground to cover before I'm sastisfied, one way or the other.
Does anybody have any objections to this particular sub-point? Speak now or temporarily hold your peace! crazyeddie 02:26, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay, doesn't look like anybody has any objections, or if they do, they're keeping mum about it. How's this look?
Since this bulletpoint is already one of the longer ones in this section, I think we ought to move it to last. Any comments on this idea or on the proposed language? crazyeddie 22:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since there doesn't seem to be any objections, I'll go ahead and make the proposed changes. I have other proposals to make, but I'll wait and see if there are any screams over this one first. crazyeddie 18:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: Photocopied memos ( http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=8147&fcategory_desc=Fox%20News,%2024hr%20Republican%20Network) from FOX News executive John Moody instructing the network's on-air anchors and reporters on using positive language when discussing anti-abortion viewpoints, the Iraq war, and tax cuts; as well as requesting that the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal be put in context with the other violence in the area.
I'm not an extremist on either side of the issue, but I think it's only fair to change this to 'pro-life.'
Plus it is probably inaccurate - I doubt the PTB at Fox are pushing for doing away with the death penalty. What was the exact language used in the source and/or the memos? crazyeddie 22:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay, did some searching for "abortion" in the link:
I also searched for "pro-life" and didn't come up with anything. I think anti-abortion is an accurate way to put it. crazyeddie 22:23, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, Silverback, rather than having a revert war, perhaps you should work things out in the talk page? crazyeddie 16:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I cited my a policy in the edit summary, and apparently i had to clear it up, as you can see from the edit summaries. Specifically, I was citing the following, from Wikipedia:Informative:
By "interesting", we don't mean "interesting to everyone", or "interesting to you". Rather, we seek information that is potentially interesting to, at least, some small but significant proportion of the world's population. For example:
If someone says they find something interesting, then they probably do, but this is not an excuse to include idiosyncratic information that really is found interesting only by this one person.
One type of uninteresting information is that which is obvious. Note that what is obvious to one person may not be obvious to someone else. However, sometimes things really are too obvious for words, and we'd rather live without them. For example:
One way to tell if something is too obvious is to ask if it is distinguished -- that is, does it set apart the subject of the article from other entities of the same general category? Every human being breathes; and all cities contain houses, flats, streets, and shops -- thus, these facts do not distinguish Ms. Thatcher or Worcester.
Specifically, I cited this section in arguing that the fact that misperceptions increased with attention to FOX news is interesting, while the fact that there are other factors which had a larger affect on misperceptions is obvious. Therefore the former should be included, while the latter should not. I am under the impression that we have reached agreement on this matter, given that he has not reverted since i clarified the citation. Kevin Baas talk 22:27, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
Careful there Ethereal! I do have other bits of information I would like to put into this bulletpoint, I would rather not be hoisted on my own petard. But I do think the level of information that Silverback was inserting was a bit overboard. I also find it dishearting that he decided to engage in a minor revert war rather than air his objections on the talk page. Hopefully he has finished reverting for now. But it is possible that he has simply gone offline for the day.
Does anybody have any objections to the "level of attention" language as it stands (as of Kevin's last revert)? crazyeddie 08:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone added this to the article:
The liberal group MoveOn.org distributed a DVD highlighting examples of bias entitled Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism.
I don't really have a problem with the way it is worded or anything, but is it notable enough for inclusion? TheNobleSith ( talk) 23:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
We're not going to go relegating all criticism or negative information to a POV fork (effectively hiding it from the relevant article). As I pointed out previously, an article on something that can sustain its own existence certainly must be mentioned here. With regards to the "only critic mentioned", I think we should expand treatment of the subject rather than try to excise it entirely. Failing to mention these elements of the subject removes any chance of credibility for the project. / Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
Since crazieddie has taken himself out of the negotiations due to my continued participation, I have removed the version that noone favors, and put in the version that at least one of us favors (yours truly), and I have put it in a new "Fox viewers", section. I could not put it in the allegations of bias section without compromising my scientific integrity, however if someone elses feels they can do so without qualms I will support the compromise of including it in there. The reason I have been only deleting it previously, was because it was I could not in good faith put my compromise in that section, since I think scientifically, this study is unrelated to biased news coverage. I am not taking the position that Fox news is unbiased, just that this study did not study Fox news coverage, biased or not.-- Silverback 08:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have not removed myself from the negotiations. Tim, what are our options here? I'm tired of Silverback's unilateral editing, and I'm tired of his failure to compromise. I can work with somebody who holds Silverback's views, but not with someone with his attitude.
To Silverback's objections to this bulletpoint:
We seem to be getting further from, not closer to, a compromise, and I believe this to be because of Silverback's refusal to compromise. I am fully willing to compromise, and, in fact, have leaned over backwards to do so, and have done my best to suggest compromise solutions that take Silverback's objections into account. He hasn't done the same, and I'm sick and tired of doing his job as well as mine. Unless there is strong consensus against it, I would like to request mediation, with the goal of encouraging Silverback to compromise or else remove him from the discussion so we can do our job. Either that, or determining if I'm out of line, in which case, I'll try to improve myself. I am not removing myself from this negotiation! crazyeddie 19:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, only noticied this after I wrote that: "The version I removed was one none of us favors, why are you reverting back to it when you don't favor it?"
Until we can work out a compromise bulletpoint, we should keep the previous version. Removing the previous version (which was at least "good enough") while we are still working on the new compromise version is disrespectful. At most, we should make note that we are working on an new version, and invite readers to help out. I believe that there is strong consensus for keeping this bulletpoint, at least in some version, but perhaps I'm wrong.
Who is in favor of keeping some form of this bulletpoint? Who is against?
I'm, of course, for keeping it. crazyeddie 19:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
However, I must add that the circumstances were unusual, in that it involved a problem user, who had a penchant for reverting ad absurdum, and eventually led to arbitration. The "stopgap" was implemented as an attempt to stop the endless reverts and page protections, without conceding to brute force tactics. I doubt that this is the circumstance here. In any case, when someone posses a question, as crazzyeddie just did, they usually really want the answers; they are usually not being rhetorical, though from my experience they seem to all too often be interpreted as such, and this tends to be an obstacle to productive discussion. Kevin Baas talk 20:07, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
I am most certainly not being rhetorical. I understood that there was consensus for keeping this bulletpoint. Based on this, I am assuming that the purpose of this discussion is to work out a new compromise version to replace the existing version. (This existing version is a compromise worked out by Trodel, Tim Ivorson and myself. It has been in place for some time. Several months I think?) Silverback has twice removed the bulletpoint, while this discussion was going on, without consulting anybody. I believe these actions gives me a right to be a little bit hot under the collar. If I am wrong, and there is a consensus that the bulletpoint should be removed, then I will most humbly apologize. Silverback has "proposed" removing the bulletpoint. I would like to have a formal vote on this issue, with the stipulation that double jeopardy applies. Not permamently, I'd just like the issued settled for, say, the next three months.
Assuming that it is the consensus that some form of this bulletpoint is to be kept, then the next step is to work out a new compromise. Silverback did propose alternate versions, but these versions contravened certain principles that I believe to have been laid out by the consensus. If it is the consensus that this bulletpoint be kept in some form, and that the present form be replaced by a fresh compromise version, and if Silverback is willing to work with us to create this compromise version, then I would like to have a formal vote on those principles as well.
If Silverback agrees to work within those principles, then I am willing to work with him. crazyeddie 19:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the record, check the Talk:FOX News/Allegations of Bias archive. Trodel did the heavy lifting, so I don't show up in the actual article's page history for that period. But I was involved, along with Trodel and Tim Ivorson, in the negotiation that produced this version:
The purpose of that rewrite was to shorten the entire Allegations of Bias section to managable length. From the talk archive, it looks like it went into effect late in January. crazyeddie 07:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Crazyeddie, Fox wasn't so much worse. Fox just had more Bush supporters among its viewers. Read the report. And note that they make a point that it was "Bush supporters", not "republicans", because bush support was a predictor even among democrats and was more important than party affiliation.
The purpose of the entry we are discussing is about a NPOV and fair representation of the scientific points of the report as they relate to Fox, and to this article which is about Fox News. This approach of yours is misguided, I quote: "If the critics of Fox believe this report tends to show bias at Fox (which they clearly do), then we need to say why they believe this, and give the defenders of Fox a chance to respond." Just because the critics use this report is no reason to misrepresent the evidence it provides. If you want to explain why critics believe things about this report, you are welcome to include quotes from those critics, but we should not distort the report to support their views. It doesn't even have to be quotes, if you think you can fairly summarize and document their views. I have not opposed opinions in the article that are critical of Fox, or even those that misrepresent this report if they are significant opinions. But it is not up to us to misrepresent the report.-- Silverback 20:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For purposes of my response, let me call this quote 1-- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Call this quote 2-- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also omitted by you is the following:
Call this quote 3 -- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Call this comment 1 -- Silverback 10:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your last reply has been awkwardly long, so I apologise if I have taken longer than expected to reply. Your first point about the word "significant" does not seem particularly relevant to this discussion; I have always interpreted "significant" to mean "statistically significant" if they are speaking within the context of discussing a finding from the results. Furthermore, your point about the relationship between the "significance" of a finding and that of sample size (esp with relation to FOX)appears rather irrelevant, simply because on page 14 the quote you have referenced states:
A larger sample size for FOX viewers stems simply from the fact that FOX is the "most watched cable news channel", as noted by the article on FOX News itself. Your subsequent sub-points about FOX is also quite irrelevant simply because you have not shown that the smaller sample size for all the other news networks viewers were small enough such that the findings are out of the +/- 5% margin of error this study uses. Hence the finding within that section stands.
Now I'll address your claim that you think support for President Bush appears to be playing a large role (ie. has not been removed to account for lopsided level of misperception for FOX viewers). If I am not wrong, the statistical method they employed, logistic regression analysis, allows for the determination of the relative strength several factors in predicting a known result. Hence within the 2nd regression analysis , it does appear to me as if the intention to vote Bush was excluded, or adjusted in a way such that it did not affect the findings for FOX significantly. Note that:
and
which suggests to me the 2nd regression analysis did take into account the first, which treated the factor intention to vote Bush separately from the choice of news networks. Furthermore, if you were correct about the factor about the intention for voting for Bush not being excluded, then you would be alleging that the above quote from page 25 were a complete contradiction to the results to the study, something you have not proven. This is not something which, as you claim, was a mere pontification. The bolded part of the sentence clearly indicates that the political orientations of the audience of the various news networks were already factored into the study. You seem to be interpreting the word "suggests" too literally.
I have ignored your speculative point about "If the networks were evaluated independently instead of having their predictive power aggregated in this second predictor, Fox itself may be behind support for the democratic candidate and education as predictors" simply because I do not think you were right about your analysis reached before assuming this conclusion.
Now I'll address your point on the level of attention to the news. The following clearly states that it is FOX's viewers which are more likely (statistically significant here) to misperceive the more they are exposed to FOX.:
Of course there are dozens of possible explanations for this phenomena, one of which (I do not rule out) that supporters of Bush may tend to watch FOX longer than others, which does explain. But then, supposing I accept ALL your reasoning about the presence of Bush supporters playing a large role in the findings of misperceptions. This still doesn't explain why Bush supporters tend to watch FOX news, or as you put it, why "FOX had more Bush supporters". Care to suggest an explanation here? Does it really matter whether the study takes into account the ranking of "level of attention to news" with respect to the 4 most important factors? What really matters here is the statistical significance; NONE of the news networks' viewers EXCEPT FOX had "level of attention" calculated as a statistically significant factor in likelihood of misperception. This itself is an important result, irrelevant of ranking (Ranking doesn't matter because we haven't agreed only to include results from the 4 most important factors or something like that).
Also, the study does not "leaves us in ignorance" (or at least not purposefully in a political sense). Do you really expect every single datum from the analysis of all the news networks to be included within that article in PSQ? As for the part on "in some cases this occurred with CNN viewers as well", the authors were referring to the fact that:
As for your claim that the authors were "treating increased misperceptions with increasing attention, separately from decreased misperceptions with decreased attention, as in the print media", I could find no evidence for such except for the first part of your statement which I quoted:
In other words, CNN viewers were slightly different from others in that increased level of attention paid meant that they had lower levels of misperceptions on WMD in Iraq and world opinion, but increased attention was correlated positively with greater likelihood to misperceive on links to al-Qaeda. The part on the print media audience also seems a little confused:
which seems to conflict with
unless in the first case they were specifically referring to the slight anomally of the question for print media audience on whether WMD had been found:
Either that, or it must have been some typographical error with the first quote above (probably writing "lower levels of attention" instead of "higher levels of attention").
As for the reason as to why the figures for the print media audience did not appear in the later comparison of the level of attention to the different news networks, it could be due to the fact that it is entirely a matter of statistical significance :
I do not think the that the data has been "selectively left out". They could have done so for the purposes of readability. I believe I have addressed most of the points you have raised and clarified the validity of the quotes I have invoked. Thank you for reading this. Ethereal 17:13, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
It turns out Silverback was wrong on whether the 2nd regression analysis included FOX's Bush supporters or not. Or so it seems, according to this link I provided quite some time ago but did not read quite carefully enough then [ [4]]. The quote within the news report reads:
A quote from the original PIPA article (the one which was replaced by the PSQ version) [5] also seems to back this up:
I guess we can agree that it is poorly worded, because "no collaborative relationship" is not inconsistent with "Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda, but was not involved in the September 11th attacks" either. BTW, do you recall whether the 9/11 report was issued before or after the PIPA surveys?-- Silverback 22:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And I think it would be just plaing wrong to leave out information solely on the basis that it impugns or seems to insult the intellegence" of any given group of people. The truth is not always "polite", and to hold an encyclopeda to that restriction would be to sacrifice its ability to communicate reality for the sake of pandering to the sentiment of a few people. That something offends a particular group of people is not neccessarily an objection. (provided it is not simply abusive) Information reliability and proportional representation (i.e. factual accuracy and NPOV) are the basi upon which valid objections are made. For example, a bigoted statement (that might be ad hominem abusive (i.e. offensive, w/no logical validity) in form), can be objected to on the basis of both information reliability and proportional representation. However, "The 9/11 Commission report (which is "original research" if the PIPA report is "original research") states that the United States government did not have any credible evidence that Saddam Hussien possesed any WMD.", is factually accurate and represents empirical data in due proportion, (given that it's in context, and the information around it represents other facts commensurably), though it is not entirely "polite" to the POV, promulgated by the Bush Adminstration, that the exact opposite was true.
Kevin Baas
talk 06:26, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)
Let's put this No original research argument to rest by noting the following from the Wikipedia project page:
The PIPA report was both reported in the news [6] and published in a peer-reviewed journal (PSQ) [7]. Hence there's no argument against its inclusion. I hereby state that all attempts to remove it is clearly unjustified from now on. Ethereal 16:40, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Ethereal, in your reason for removing the information where the CBS figure was higher than Fox's you are being more discriminating the PIPA was in their report, I quote, and add a highlight:
Note also, immediately following, is another quote where Fox is not the highest:
Btw, we have to be careful about which data the statements are about, for instance the question about substantial support appears to have been asked alone in some instances, and as part of a 4 part answer in others, and when used as part of the four part answer, the first part was the direct support to al Qaeda and the substantial support component was analyzed in combonation with it below in another instance in which CBS figures are higher than Fox's:
This quote from the peer reviewed version, shows that it also used four part answers in some instances:
The surveys that serve as raw data were apparently not consistently designed with a peer review publication in mind, but rather a publishable study was attempted to be made out of them after the fact, not all survived peer review, and it looks to me like more survived peer review than should have. It seems clear that the report analyzes data from several surveys, and that for the questions we are interested there are at least two separate grouping of data. The necessary "predictor" demographic and preference attitude and party affiliation data, may not be present to the same extent of completeness in both.
In fairness, shouldn't we also include these results from the four part answers, in which CBS shows worse than Fox. Based on what PIPA publicized and also emphasized in their non-peer reviewed report, it seems they were after Fox and not CBS, but we don't need to retain that bias.-- Silverback 11:59, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To show that I am willing to compromise, Silverback, I now state that I am now willing to allow the figures for the poll question on which CBS scored higher than FOX. However, this does not detract from the fact that overall, it was found that FOX was a consistently more significant predictor of viewership misperception than CBS, even when the influence of Bush supporters have been removed from the analysis. Ethereal 15:06, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would also like to see that poll question included. However, I would like it to be give a seperate subpoint, and I would like to see the percentages for the other news sources, not just Fox and CBS. According to Figure 1 on page 575, 40% of sample had none the misperceptions in question and 60% had one or more. According to Table 4 on page 582, both Fox and CBS had a greater proportion of respondants with one or more misperceptions, while CNN, NBC, print media and NPR/PBS repondants had a lower proportion. (ABC was about par for the course, give or take a percentage point.)
It would appear that both Fox and CBS are "biased" in the same direction, but Fox more so than CBS. I don't find it all that shocking that CBS pulled out ahead of Fox on one single question. Giving CBS's percentage, but not the other new sources', would tend to make the reader think of CBS as a neutral "control". ABC would be a better reference point, or better yet, all the news sources. crazyeddie 22:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Faux News" (the name, not the website) appear to be quite notable indeed. See: [8] Ethereal 04:45, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have sent an email to PIPA regarding Silverback's specific claim that the second regression analysis on page 22 took into account Bush supporters among FOX viewers. It turns out that the answer was yes (and Silverback was wrong). The following is the (unedited and original) email from PIPA:
(Emphasis added)
Kevin Baas talk has also kindly uploaded the attached file (.doc file) here: [9]. So you see, Silverback, the reason for exclusion is really because of readability and not political bias (PSQ exluded it not PIPA). So far I have gone to the extent of
It would interesting to see what else you can come up with next. Ethereal 02:45, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Which we have made note of. Again, I'm not sure how much of an effect it has. Some, probably, but which way? Unfortunately, this study wasn't set up to control for that. But I don't think this flaw is serious enough to require the removal of the bullet point, so long as we make a note of it. crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Granted. But bias is a strong candidate for casual agent. If FNC is only perceived to be biased towards Bush, the Iraq War, etc., then that might attract viewers who have a pre-existing bias themselves. On the other hand, if FNC is really biased, then that might make viewers more likely to hold the views in question. Or there might be some third mystery factor. What we have so far strongly indicates that bias, whether perceived or real, might be a factor. More research would be needed to sort it out.
I've been forced to watch FNC at work this past week, and it seems to me that the editoral coverage, at least, was certainly biased when it came to the Terri Schiavo case. I'm afraid I wasn't around to watch the news reporting. I understand the difference between editorals and news, but does the average viewer?
It seems to me that media bias is the strongest candidate for causing the prevalance of misperceptions. It seems to me that holding these misperceptions causes support for the Iraq War and for Bush, not the other way around. One way to doublecheck would be to correlate for if repondants voted for Gore or for Bush in the election of 2000, which would indicate if the respondant supported Bush prior to 9/11 and the lead up to the Iraq War. Unfortunately, AFAICT, the poll didn't ask that question.
I find it interesting that Silverback brought up a while back the bit about more Bush supporters watching Fox. I haven't gotten that far into my read of the report yet, but the obvious question is why do more Bush supporters watch Fox? Perhaps we should include that datum in the bullet point as well? crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is possible to be biased and to accurately report the truth at the same time. Even if PIPA is biased, that does not invalidate their report. Until some flaw can be found in their report, attempting to prove that PIPA is biased is no more than an ad hominem attack. On the other hand, the fact that PBS/NPR and Fox viewers are once again on opposite ends of the spectrum on a view that strongly correlates with support for the Iraq War and for Bush is further evidence that Fox News is biased. Remember that the anti-Fox POV is trying to show that Fox is biased, not that Fox has failed in its journalistic mission - although there is some evidence supporting that conclusion, that isn't the name of the section, is it?
A Fox critic would think that the response on this particular question only shows that Fox is quite capable of shifting fact from fiction when it suits their nefarious ends. It is possible that PBS/NPR coverage is biased in way that is equal and opposite to Fox, but that is outside the scope of this article. It may even be that PBS/NPR has some failings in its journalistic intergrity, but I highly doubt it, and, besides, that would also be outside the scope of this article. Since this datum supports my POV's position, I fully support the inclusion of it into the bullet point. crazyeddie 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You seem to be of the (twisted) opinion that what counts as a misperception only applies only when there's a clear majority among those who were watching FOX. I don't see why this should be the case. If among FOX viewers we consistently found much greater likelihood (around +30% more likely) then we can safely conclude that FOX was being extremely biased. However this isn't the case, so we can say that FOX was being more biased as compared to the other networks (Mind you I already included CBS in the report), but this bias stops short of being complete nonsense. This clearly doesn't mean FOX wasn't biased. This is such a simple point I wonder why I have to point it out to you.
As for your speculation, I remind you that Wikipedia's articles are not a place for your right-wing POV speculations. And since when did we start talking about patriotism? Oh, I forgot, probably since we started conversing with you. Ethereal 03:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The anti-Fox thesis of this section is that Fox is biased towards the right. (While the pro-Fox POV is, persumably, that it isn't.) Here's the thesis right here:
"[N]umerous critics claim such slogans belie a network that has a conservative bias and tailors its news to support the Republican Party. Although most critics do not claim that all FOX News reporting is slanted, most allege that bias at FOX News is systemic."
The thesis is that Fox has a systemic, conservative, pro-Republican bias. Not that Fox is more biased than other news sources or even that it has a greater bias towards the right than other news sources. I certainly believe that all of these things are true, and I'm fairly certain, but not 100% postive, that FNC has failed in its journalistic mission. But that's neither here nor there. If you want to show that PBS and/or NPR is biased towards the left, do it in the appropriate article, not here.
<<you want to blame Fox bias for the misperceptions of its viewers.>>
The PIPA report, IMO, doesn't quite give enough evidence for this, but it comes rather close. For example, the likelihood of a Fox viewer having one or more of the misperceptions actually increased the more attention they paid to the news. This would imply that the greater the exposure to FNC, the more likely the viewer is to be deceived. Only imply, of course, not prove or be direct evidence of. More research would be needed to answer that question.
Fortunately, the anti-Fox POV isn't trying to show that Fox's bias is responsible for the misperceptions of its viewers. What the anti-Fox POV is trying to show is that the misperceptions of Fox's viewers (relative to the general population) implies that Fox is biased.
But like Kevin said, the purpose of this discussion is not to determine whether Fox is biased or whether the PIPA report is evidence of bias. The purpose of this discussion is to work out a compromise bulletpoint that summarizes the meat of the PIPA report and how it relates to the alledged bias of FNC. (Neutral being defined, IIRC, as giving a fair and accurate representation of the various POV's views.) Of secondary interest is the need to be concise.
This, of course, assumes that we are, in fact, agreed that we need a bulletpoint for the PIPA report. It seems that Silverback agreed to this while I wasn't looking. (Or was he only insisting on the inclusion of the "no connection" question?) Can we take it that this particular question is closed for good? If not, could we please settle it?
Assuming that we are agreed that we need a bulletpoint of some sort, let's get back to creating a bulletpoint that fairly takes into account both the pro- and anti-Fox POVs, while still being concise as possible. Why don't we each attempt to write a version, and take it from there? We can figure out which version is most salvagable and work from there to one that everybody is equally happy with. Or equally unhappy with, whatever. crazyeddie 08:23, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Like Silverback said, the shells were not found until after the survey. Even if the shells were WMDs, at the time "The US has found WMDs in Iraq" was a misperception. AFAICT, the survey has no factual flaws. The only question is how the survey and report relate to FNC and its aledged bias. So moving along... crazyeddie 21:11, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, interpreting the first statement as a misperception is also a factual flaw, "US has found clear evidence in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist organization". The medical treatment and sanctuary for al Zarqawi is enough to qualify as "working closely". This has already been discussed.-- Silverback 22:38, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
For goodness's sake, Silverback and Trodel, the current revision of the article with regard to the PIPA report already contains the questions directly quoted from the actual questionaire given out to the poll respondents. So, whatever possible interpretation you could have assigned the questions can also be given to the bulletpoints which is already included within the article. It is not our duty to determine what exactly the respondents have had in mind when they answered as they did. Isn't a direct copy-and-paste from the poll question sufficient enough? Ethereal 01:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The PIPA report was investigating three misperceptions that they believed were leading to support for the Iraq War, and why people were harboring them. They discovered that the most significant correlations were 1) support for the Iraq War, 2) intention to vote for Bush in the upcoming '04 elections, 3) what source the respondant was using for their primary source of news, 4) intention to vote for a Democratic candidate in the upcoming elections. It could be argued that, except for number 3, those correlations were a result of having the given misperceptions. At any rate, we are only worried about number 3.
Among the various news sources, Fox was the strongest predictor for having one or more of the misperceptions, as well as being the strongest predictor for each individual misperception. Even after accounting for the intention to vote for Bush or a Democratic candidate, party membership, as well as a host of other variables, Fox viewers were still more likely to hold these misperceptions. In addition, Fox viewers were the least likely to have a misperception that correlated with lack of support for the war - That there was "no connection" between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Also, Fox viewers came in second (but still significantly above the overall average) for two related views that, while not disproven, were widely believed to be false in the intelligence community.
So far, all this shows correlation, not causation. The causual relationship could go either way. It could be that watching Fox tends to cause people to hold the given misperceptions, or it could be that holding these misperceptions tends to cause people to watch Fox, or it could be that some third factor, not accounted for in the analysis, was causing both effects. The correlation is cause for suspicion, but it isn't exactly proof.
But add in this though: Among Fox viewers, those who very closely payed attention to the news were more likely, not less, than those who payed no attention to the news to hold the given misperceptions. This would seem to indicate that greater exposure to Fox coverage caused viewers to be more likely to hold the give misperceptions. It might be that having the misperceptions might cause Fox viewers to pay more attention to the news, but that's stretching things a bit, especially since the same effect wasn't seen with other news sources. (Aside from Fox, print media, and CNN, there was no correlation between the amount of attention payed to the news and holding the given misperceptions. The correlation was strongest with Fox. There was a slight tendency of having a lower rate of misperceptions with greater attention among print media readers, and a very slight tendency in the same direction with CNN viewers.)
The facts of the survey and of the report are not in dispute, only its interpertation. Which just means that we need to report both side's of the dispute interpertations, in accordance with the NPOV policy, not that the bulletpoint is in need of removal. crazyeddie 21:11, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is everybody agreed? crazyeddie 22:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea to make too long. Sooner or later, someone will say it ought to be removed because it's too long. And in any case, Silverback, I did compromise on one hidden aspect: on whether the fact that the regression analysis took into account Bush supporters of FOX viewers. The current revision (on reading) leaves open the possibility that Bush supporters among FOX viewers may account for the lopsided tendency of FOX viewers to misperceive, but as PIPA has said, that itself reflects a misreading of the study. I have compromised with you by not including that fact. Apart from that, I have also compromised on the following:
I think the others can see why I'm sick of this. I'll tolerate no attempts to remove the PIPA report, unless a sufficiently good reason can be given. For that reason to be sufficiently good, I am going to practise the very same tough standards Silverback has applied for the inclusion of the PIPA report in its current revision. Ethereal 03:47, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
silverback had an interesting question earlier, about how caring about world opinion affected misperceptions and/or support for the war.
the survey apparently included misperceptions about world opinion. it is pretentious to say that one :"cares" about world opnion if they don't even care enough about it to find out what it is. by this logic, it seems that misperceptions about world opninion would be a good indicator of how important it is to people.
and support for the war is in the survey, too. Kevin Baas talk 21:00, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
Well my logic is somewhat different, i wouldn't say that it's neccessarily correlated with fox viewers, (and the survey doesn't support that hypothesis). i'd say that caring/not caring is correlated with getting it right or not. I'd also say that this is correlated with support for the war, and that it's correlated with political attitude. (and to take it a step furter: not through intermediate variables) but i hypothesis that it has negligble, at best, correlation to fox, when those factors are compensated for.
I think you're making some generalizations there. Firstly, I am only familiar with Kerry being mocked for flip-flopping, which in actually he hasn't done. His voting record is very consistent. For example, he got an a+ from the league of conservation voters. if you look at other public interest groups who objectively rate voting patterns, you'll see that he rarely gets anything near a C, but more often an A or an F, depending on the nature of the interest group. Perhaps people who call or called kerry a flip-flopper are either just being a reapeter (i think this is most likely) or don't understand what to them would be "subtleties" in his elocution. And in any case, another part of Bush's negative campaign against kerry was calling him a crazy liberal, the most extreme-left in the senate (in actuality, kuccinich is generally considered the most left, and fiengold and boxer are considered the most progressive) - and one must ask, how can that be, if he's a flip-flopper? Wouldn't that imply that his views are very predictable (whatever "left" is), and thus very consistent? But that's enough with that absurdity.
the principles of democrats are very consistent, and their conviction and passion for them very strong. They're very basic, too:
Everything pretty much lines up. i'm sure i can expand, but i think i get the idea across. Kevin Baas talk 15:38, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
holding fingers to the political wind? is that a weather analogy? if so, i don't see how that's a bad thing. if there's a storm, i'm staying inside, if it's going to rain, i'm not going to work on the roof. - this kind of things are good to know, to help determine the best course of action. do in interpret this correctly?
ruling by the polls - what? Do you mean that they are more likely to consider differing opinions? this would align with lots of things in those bulletpoints above. Kevin Baas talk 15:38, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
And none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand. If you wish to continue this conversation, please do it at your own personal talk pages. Some of us would like to get some work done... crazyeddie 20:36, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
opps. right. sorry. Kevin Baas talk 21:43, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
On my hard copy, the "level of attention to news" factor was mentioned on pages 585-586 and page 590. (I'm working with a printed out hardcopy, so I'm afraid I can't give you what PDF page number these are on.) Here's the relevant passages verbatim (unless some typos snuck in - feel free to read the original, this is just for y'all's convenience). crazyeddie 19:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From page 585-586:
From page 590:
I agree that it isn't clear how it ranks in significance. But it is clear that it is significant. In the first quote, PIPA describes it like this: "In the case of those who primarily watched Fox, greater attention to news modestly increased the likelihood of misperceptions." In other words, the effect isn't huge, but it is present. I believe that this bit is important enough to warrant inclusion in the bulletpoint. Does anybody object? crazyeddie 17:45, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you wish to make other changes or additions to the bulletpoint, we can discuss them at a later time. I have other changes I would like to propose myself. But let's focus on one thing at a time and not get sidetracked. Do you have any objections to the inclusion of this bit on its own merits? Does anybody else have any objections to its inclusion? Does anybody want to express support for its inclusion? Is anybody undecided? crazyeddie 20:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't exactly proposing adding three paragraphs to the article. I was thinking more along the lines of a single sentence. We can figure out the exact form after we have determined that there is consensus for its inclusion. I have no wish to rehash this discussion a week from now - while I don't expect any compromise language to be final, I would like to have about three months of peace and quiet before somebody broaches editing the PIPA bulletpoint again. That's assuming that we eventually come to a true compromise. This current session has lasted since at least March, and we still have a lot of ground to cover before I'm sastisfied, one way or the other.
Does anybody have any objections to this particular sub-point? Speak now or temporarily hold your peace! crazyeddie 02:26, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay, doesn't look like anybody has any objections, or if they do, they're keeping mum about it. How's this look?
Since this bulletpoint is already one of the longer ones in this section, I think we ought to move it to last. Any comments on this idea or on the proposed language? crazyeddie 22:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since there doesn't seem to be any objections, I'll go ahead and make the proposed changes. I have other proposals to make, but I'll wait and see if there are any screams over this one first. crazyeddie 18:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: Photocopied memos ( http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=8147&fcategory_desc=Fox%20News,%2024hr%20Republican%20Network) from FOX News executive John Moody instructing the network's on-air anchors and reporters on using positive language when discussing anti-abortion viewpoints, the Iraq war, and tax cuts; as well as requesting that the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal be put in context with the other violence in the area.
I'm not an extremist on either side of the issue, but I think it's only fair to change this to 'pro-life.'
Plus it is probably inaccurate - I doubt the PTB at Fox are pushing for doing away with the death penalty. What was the exact language used in the source and/or the memos? crazyeddie 22:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay, did some searching for "abortion" in the link:
I also searched for "pro-life" and didn't come up with anything. I think anti-abortion is an accurate way to put it. crazyeddie 22:23, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, Silverback, rather than having a revert war, perhaps you should work things out in the talk page? crazyeddie 16:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I cited my a policy in the edit summary, and apparently i had to clear it up, as you can see from the edit summaries. Specifically, I was citing the following, from Wikipedia:Informative:
By "interesting", we don't mean "interesting to everyone", or "interesting to you". Rather, we seek information that is potentially interesting to, at least, some small but significant proportion of the world's population. For example:
If someone says they find something interesting, then they probably do, but this is not an excuse to include idiosyncratic information that really is found interesting only by this one person.
One type of uninteresting information is that which is obvious. Note that what is obvious to one person may not be obvious to someone else. However, sometimes things really are too obvious for words, and we'd rather live without them. For example:
One way to tell if something is too obvious is to ask if it is distinguished -- that is, does it set apart the subject of the article from other entities of the same general category? Every human being breathes; and all cities contain houses, flats, streets, and shops -- thus, these facts do not distinguish Ms. Thatcher or Worcester.
Specifically, I cited this section in arguing that the fact that misperceptions increased with attention to FOX news is interesting, while the fact that there are other factors which had a larger affect on misperceptions is obvious. Therefore the former should be included, while the latter should not. I am under the impression that we have reached agreement on this matter, given that he has not reverted since i clarified the citation. Kevin Baas talk 22:27, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
Careful there Ethereal! I do have other bits of information I would like to put into this bulletpoint, I would rather not be hoisted on my own petard. But I do think the level of information that Silverback was inserting was a bit overboard. I also find it dishearting that he decided to engage in a minor revert war rather than air his objections on the talk page. Hopefully he has finished reverting for now. But it is possible that he has simply gone offline for the day.
Does anybody have any objections to the "level of attention" language as it stands (as of Kevin's last revert)? crazyeddie 08:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone added this to the article:
The liberal group MoveOn.org distributed a DVD highlighting examples of bias entitled Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism.
I don't really have a problem with the way it is worded or anything, but is it notable enough for inclusion? TheNobleSith ( talk) 23:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
We're not going to go relegating all criticism or negative information to a POV fork (effectively hiding it from the relevant article). As I pointed out previously, an article on something that can sustain its own existence certainly must be mentioned here. With regards to the "only critic mentioned", I think we should expand treatment of the subject rather than try to excise it entirely. Failing to mention these elements of the subject removes any chance of credibility for the project. / Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)