This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I took out the chicken shack comment because it was an amatuer mistake, but I thought I should detail why I took out the DUI section under the alleged bias. The story itself was broken by a Fox affiliate, and not Fox news itself. Hope this clears that up.
--> Fox News Channel's Carl Cameron broke the DUI story nationally. (10 November 2004 JansSport)
In the view of opinion columnist
Ann Coulter the three misperceptions were "deceptive," based on "liberal talking points," and "designed to falsely portrary FOX News viewers as ignorant" was in the section discussing the misperceptions of FOX viewers. I took it out because the comment was supposedly to contrast a major study done with research principles with the opinion of a woman who has no facts to back up her assertions on the study. If anyone can find some actual facts to back up her assertions please put them in. If not, these two statements are clearly not equal in weight.
--
TheGrza 03:14, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
--> It most definitely is an "ad hominem". Just a quick question, TheGrza: If Ann Coulter states something that is true on its face, does the fact that she is the messenger immediately discredit this truth? If Coulter says, "Today's sky is blue," and today's sky IS blue, does the fact that she's the one saying it make the sky red? 10 Nov 2004 (DJ)
-->No, it doesn't and that's a fine point. My point is that the evidence she cites in the...wait for it...OP/ED piece is the argument, not the fact that she disputes it. I don't care who disputes it, that means nothing. The point I was making is that the arguments should be in the article instead of just putting her name in. Also, the evidence cited should be backed up with more fact then she mustered in her piece, which assumed two points were true (and making an ad hominem attack on the democrats for the third). These facts are not to the par of the study itself. It has flaws, yes, and I pointed them out. But she has nothing to do with those flaws. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 05:35, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
198.109.220.6 put in a lot of nice things that I had to delete for their complete and utterly blatant POV. However, 198.109.220.6 made a comment about Brit Hume admitting bias on Fox News. I deleted it because I couldn't find anything to back it up, but if anyone knows what 198.109.220.6 is talking about, put it back in. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:04, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
All the page on Fox News is a blast-fest. In almost every paragraph, reports of FN being 'conservative-based' and 'distorting the facts', although these are absent in it's competitors pages, namely NBC, CBS, CNN, etc.
This page needs a re-write. Too much criticism. Just because it's the only network without a liberal view doesn't mean liberals have the right to attack it here.
-- If you actually read the entry, you'll see that each and every criticism describes an instance of biased or distorted presentation of facts laid out as facts. Such behaviour surely deserves to be recorded here because it is an egregious breach of journalistic ethics, and is as such noteworthy. Therefore I don't think you need to show a specific "right" to be able to record it, though maybe your invocation of rights-language is rhetorical. Moreover, bias is bad in of itself so the criticism is hardly "just because it's the only network without a liberal view"
If you can dredge up cases of other news channels deploying opinions as facts, that would be good. --- Dan W
-- Even so, you must admit the other networks don't have a blast-fest as much as this one. Why does FOX need over 10 paragraphs stating of "Allegations of Bias"? Do you see CNN, CBS, ABC or NBC with one? I certainly don't, and I see no purpose of there being such a section.
-- Then maybe it's time I start allegations of bias pages for CNN and the others.
Feel free. I personally think CNN has a slight bias toward the right, so maybe you actually have something there. crazyeddie 19:22, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed "It markets itself as a uniquely neutral news source, using the mottos "fair and balanced" and "we report, you decide."". If we aren't going to have allegations of bias in the lead, neither should we have their marketing. Compare to New York Times' lead section. Best, [[User:Meelar| Meelar (talk)]] 18:25, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Am I being paranoid, or is there a nasty campaign by Fox against the BBC for being biased? Look at the following (factually incorrect) diatribe from the Fox archives about BBC hosting a "Question Time" special prior to the 2004 Presidential election. The report strongly implies that show's panel was filled with nothing more than anti-war liberals (Michael Moore, et al). [4] The actual panel was far more balanced than suggested. It included Bush's speech writer David Frum and Richard Littlejohn (Outspoken right-of-center, pro-war British Journalist who works for the Murdoch empire). [5] Ade Myers
The content of the "Allegations of bias" section have been moved to a separate article Criticisms of Fox News (originally called Fox News Bias), but the link there from this article was reverted after about thirty minutes. This leaves an orphan article, which is now in Votes for Deletion at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Criticisms of Fox News. I place this notice here so that people who have edited that section can voice their opinion on whether the subject is best dealt with in a separate article; if not then the new article should be deleted and the subject of bias should continue to be dealt with in the main article. --[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 04:56, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The question of bias is fundamental to any discussion of Fox News. Fox News itself keeps the question on the table. That said, I agree that this section is too long and too querulous (even though I also agree with most of what it has to say). So this section should be made shorter and more neutral. If you want another article to discuss bias at length, I recommend the more general topic of bias in American television news. Of course Fox could have its own section in that article. -- Greg Kuperberg 13:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For the sake of people's (and Wikipedia's) bandwidth, I believe there should be a separate page for the allegations of bias. I by no means say we should exclude it, just it seems to me that it is too big in size. Also, I like Greg's suggestion above. A much-needed neutral article for FNC, plus a general bias of American media. -- MrMiscellanious 4:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I added more information about the Fox News situation in Canada. I don't think people have all the facts needed to form an opinion on any perceived political nature of the situation.-- Ben 00:45, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The revert of the "Conservative Bias" change was necessary, but the Outfoxed link should stay. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 03:55, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
The film is specifically about FOX News and it's relevant to the page as seen in the oft-argued about bias section. -- User:TheGrza 04:46, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
A recent edit seems to have resulted in the deletion of most of the Personalities section and 'all of the Allegations of Bias section. I've performed one revert and one restore, but I'm sorry I think I may have lost some intermediate edits. If you have added material today and I have inadvertently deleted it, my apologies. I have tried to restore what I could but tehe deletions were pretty radical so it's too difficult for me to deal with by myself. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:05, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just a suggestion, but John Gibson's recent comments were over the top, regarding how Karl Rove should get a medal for his alleged actions in the recent scandal, and especially the "This is why I think the Brits should have let the French host the Olympics..." in regards to the London bombing. That's simply over the top and has to be mentioned somewhere in this article and not merely in his own personal article, as Cavuto's apologist stance for Bush was documented. Just my suggestion.
Well this is my fourth attempt to try to get this note. Footnote #2 does not support the statement for which it is cited. This website does, and should replace #2 http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2008/narrative_cabletv_audience.php?cat=2&media=7. Thank you Biccat ( talk) 12:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone keeps on removing "right-wing" from the section about the slant that critics have accused FOX News of having at first claiming that it was redundant or unnecessary. I don't think it is, since neither "conservative" or "republican" are exactly the same as "right-wing" something that FOX has been called (and I even added a reference to it, but the main entry that goes with that section describes these criticisms in more detail). Now I've been reverted again with a dictionary.com link in the edit summary. Please explain what the problem seems to be. These words are not redundant or synonymous and "right-wing" is something that Fox News has been called. I see no reason for removing it. Please also see the main entry Fox News Channel controversies and the relevant Wikipedia entry on right-wing politics. PelleSmith ( talk) 22:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN have been accused as being left-wing, should we change that on those pages as well? Also according to dictionary.com, conservative and right-wing are synonymous [7] [8]-- Lucky Mitch ( talk) 23:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Just because some people use the words "right-wing conservative" does not mean they are gramatically correct either. It's like saying a person is "a conservative that leans right", it's not necessary. Why add in another word that means the same thing? We get the point.--
Lucky Mitch (
talk)
23:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't want to get involved here, but I decided to google left-wing conservative and right-wing liberal. Seems they don't necessarily entail one another, but are definitely synonymous. -- Ubiq ( talk) 00:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't expect it to get this serious. The only thing I was concerned with was getting too wordy here, nothing more. We could go on and on saying Fox News has been accused of having a socially conservative, fiscally conservative, neoconservative, economically liberal (which is embraced by american conservatives), christian right, right-wing, rightist, right-leaning, and liberal conservative bias or we could just keep it at a bias favoring Conservatives or Republicans.
For your 2 questions-
1) Do you think the distinctions made on Wikipedia between political conservatism and right-wing politics through their separate entries are wrong?-- No because political conservatism is an ideology while right-wing refers to a place on the political spectrum. Often when many people use the term right-wing, they actually mean radically rightist or far right. It's the same for many people who use the term left-wing as well. Right-wing is like an umbrella term that refers to the entire right side of the political spectrum. There is no reason to put right-wing in with conservatism unless you are really trying to think of a nice way of saying far right which is basically facism which Fox News simply does not advocate.
2) Do you think the main entry I linked above Fox News Channel controversies, and its references to the specific language of "right-wing" is somehow wrong or unrepresentative of these criticisms?-- If you are refering to the very begining of the article where it says "Critics and some observers of the channel accuse it of political bias towards the political right" I think the language is correct. In fact I think we should change the sentence we are arguing about to "Fox News has been accused of having a bias towards the political right or Republican point of view at the expense of neutrality." Would you agree?-- Lucky Mitch ( talk) 06:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
My 2 cents: conservative and right-wing are different. Proof: G.W.B. is right-wing. G.W.B. is definitely not a conservative. Many republicans that I have spoken to have echoed this assessment. extreme right wingers tend to be neoconservatives, like G.W.B. and most of his appointees, and traditional conservatives agree that neoconservativism is quite far from traditional conservative values. I've heard people even go so far as to say they're considering voting democratic because some democrats are more conservative than right-wingers currently in office. right-wing is generally held to be synomymous w/republican, but conservative and right-wing are not synonymous. Kevin Baas talk 15:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, although the definitions of right wing and conservative overlap quite a bit, they are not exactly the same. TheNobleSith ( talk) 20:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
OP, you are wrong. Right-wing denotes extremist conservative views, i.e. on the fringe. All conservatives, though liberals believe otherwise, are not extremists. PokeHomsar ( talk) 03:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I took out the chicken shack comment because it was an amatuer mistake, but I thought I should detail why I took out the DUI section under the alleged bias. The story itself was broken by a Fox affiliate, and not Fox news itself. Hope this clears that up.
--> Fox News Channel's Carl Cameron broke the DUI story nationally. (10 November 2004 JansSport)
In the view of opinion columnist
Ann Coulter the three misperceptions were "deceptive," based on "liberal talking points," and "designed to falsely portrary FOX News viewers as ignorant" was in the section discussing the misperceptions of FOX viewers. I took it out because the comment was supposedly to contrast a major study done with research principles with the opinion of a woman who has no facts to back up her assertions on the study. If anyone can find some actual facts to back up her assertions please put them in. If not, these two statements are clearly not equal in weight.
--
TheGrza 03:14, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
--> It most definitely is an "ad hominem". Just a quick question, TheGrza: If Ann Coulter states something that is true on its face, does the fact that she is the messenger immediately discredit this truth? If Coulter says, "Today's sky is blue," and today's sky IS blue, does the fact that she's the one saying it make the sky red? 10 Nov 2004 (DJ)
-->No, it doesn't and that's a fine point. My point is that the evidence she cites in the...wait for it...OP/ED piece is the argument, not the fact that she disputes it. I don't care who disputes it, that means nothing. The point I was making is that the arguments should be in the article instead of just putting her name in. Also, the evidence cited should be backed up with more fact then she mustered in her piece, which assumed two points were true (and making an ad hominem attack on the democrats for the third). These facts are not to the par of the study itself. It has flaws, yes, and I pointed them out. But she has nothing to do with those flaws. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 05:35, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
198.109.220.6 put in a lot of nice things that I had to delete for their complete and utterly blatant POV. However, 198.109.220.6 made a comment about Brit Hume admitting bias on Fox News. I deleted it because I couldn't find anything to back it up, but if anyone knows what 198.109.220.6 is talking about, put it back in. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:04, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
All the page on Fox News is a blast-fest. In almost every paragraph, reports of FN being 'conservative-based' and 'distorting the facts', although these are absent in it's competitors pages, namely NBC, CBS, CNN, etc.
This page needs a re-write. Too much criticism. Just because it's the only network without a liberal view doesn't mean liberals have the right to attack it here.
-- If you actually read the entry, you'll see that each and every criticism describes an instance of biased or distorted presentation of facts laid out as facts. Such behaviour surely deserves to be recorded here because it is an egregious breach of journalistic ethics, and is as such noteworthy. Therefore I don't think you need to show a specific "right" to be able to record it, though maybe your invocation of rights-language is rhetorical. Moreover, bias is bad in of itself so the criticism is hardly "just because it's the only network without a liberal view"
If you can dredge up cases of other news channels deploying opinions as facts, that would be good. --- Dan W
-- Even so, you must admit the other networks don't have a blast-fest as much as this one. Why does FOX need over 10 paragraphs stating of "Allegations of Bias"? Do you see CNN, CBS, ABC or NBC with one? I certainly don't, and I see no purpose of there being such a section.
-- Then maybe it's time I start allegations of bias pages for CNN and the others.
Feel free. I personally think CNN has a slight bias toward the right, so maybe you actually have something there. crazyeddie 19:22, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed "It markets itself as a uniquely neutral news source, using the mottos "fair and balanced" and "we report, you decide."". If we aren't going to have allegations of bias in the lead, neither should we have their marketing. Compare to New York Times' lead section. Best, [[User:Meelar| Meelar (talk)]] 18:25, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Am I being paranoid, or is there a nasty campaign by Fox against the BBC for being biased? Look at the following (factually incorrect) diatribe from the Fox archives about BBC hosting a "Question Time" special prior to the 2004 Presidential election. The report strongly implies that show's panel was filled with nothing more than anti-war liberals (Michael Moore, et al). [4] The actual panel was far more balanced than suggested. It included Bush's speech writer David Frum and Richard Littlejohn (Outspoken right-of-center, pro-war British Journalist who works for the Murdoch empire). [5] Ade Myers
The content of the "Allegations of bias" section have been moved to a separate article Criticisms of Fox News (originally called Fox News Bias), but the link there from this article was reverted after about thirty minutes. This leaves an orphan article, which is now in Votes for Deletion at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Criticisms of Fox News. I place this notice here so that people who have edited that section can voice their opinion on whether the subject is best dealt with in a separate article; if not then the new article should be deleted and the subject of bias should continue to be dealt with in the main article. --[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 04:56, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The question of bias is fundamental to any discussion of Fox News. Fox News itself keeps the question on the table. That said, I agree that this section is too long and too querulous (even though I also agree with most of what it has to say). So this section should be made shorter and more neutral. If you want another article to discuss bias at length, I recommend the more general topic of bias in American television news. Of course Fox could have its own section in that article. -- Greg Kuperberg 13:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For the sake of people's (and Wikipedia's) bandwidth, I believe there should be a separate page for the allegations of bias. I by no means say we should exclude it, just it seems to me that it is too big in size. Also, I like Greg's suggestion above. A much-needed neutral article for FNC, plus a general bias of American media. -- MrMiscellanious 4:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I added more information about the Fox News situation in Canada. I don't think people have all the facts needed to form an opinion on any perceived political nature of the situation.-- Ben 00:45, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The revert of the "Conservative Bias" change was necessary, but the Outfoxed link should stay. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 03:55, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
The film is specifically about FOX News and it's relevant to the page as seen in the oft-argued about bias section. -- User:TheGrza 04:46, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
A recent edit seems to have resulted in the deletion of most of the Personalities section and 'all of the Allegations of Bias section. I've performed one revert and one restore, but I'm sorry I think I may have lost some intermediate edits. If you have added material today and I have inadvertently deleted it, my apologies. I have tried to restore what I could but tehe deletions were pretty radical so it's too difficult for me to deal with by myself. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:05, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just a suggestion, but John Gibson's recent comments were over the top, regarding how Karl Rove should get a medal for his alleged actions in the recent scandal, and especially the "This is why I think the Brits should have let the French host the Olympics..." in regards to the London bombing. That's simply over the top and has to be mentioned somewhere in this article and not merely in his own personal article, as Cavuto's apologist stance for Bush was documented. Just my suggestion.
Well this is my fourth attempt to try to get this note. Footnote #2 does not support the statement for which it is cited. This website does, and should replace #2 http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2008/narrative_cabletv_audience.php?cat=2&media=7. Thank you Biccat ( talk) 12:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone keeps on removing "right-wing" from the section about the slant that critics have accused FOX News of having at first claiming that it was redundant or unnecessary. I don't think it is, since neither "conservative" or "republican" are exactly the same as "right-wing" something that FOX has been called (and I even added a reference to it, but the main entry that goes with that section describes these criticisms in more detail). Now I've been reverted again with a dictionary.com link in the edit summary. Please explain what the problem seems to be. These words are not redundant or synonymous and "right-wing" is something that Fox News has been called. I see no reason for removing it. Please also see the main entry Fox News Channel controversies and the relevant Wikipedia entry on right-wing politics. PelleSmith ( talk) 22:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN have been accused as being left-wing, should we change that on those pages as well? Also according to dictionary.com, conservative and right-wing are synonymous [7] [8]-- Lucky Mitch ( talk) 23:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Just because some people use the words "right-wing conservative" does not mean they are gramatically correct either. It's like saying a person is "a conservative that leans right", it's not necessary. Why add in another word that means the same thing? We get the point.--
Lucky Mitch (
talk)
23:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't want to get involved here, but I decided to google left-wing conservative and right-wing liberal. Seems they don't necessarily entail one another, but are definitely synonymous. -- Ubiq ( talk) 00:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't expect it to get this serious. The only thing I was concerned with was getting too wordy here, nothing more. We could go on and on saying Fox News has been accused of having a socially conservative, fiscally conservative, neoconservative, economically liberal (which is embraced by american conservatives), christian right, right-wing, rightist, right-leaning, and liberal conservative bias or we could just keep it at a bias favoring Conservatives or Republicans.
For your 2 questions-
1) Do you think the distinctions made on Wikipedia between political conservatism and right-wing politics through their separate entries are wrong?-- No because political conservatism is an ideology while right-wing refers to a place on the political spectrum. Often when many people use the term right-wing, they actually mean radically rightist or far right. It's the same for many people who use the term left-wing as well. Right-wing is like an umbrella term that refers to the entire right side of the political spectrum. There is no reason to put right-wing in with conservatism unless you are really trying to think of a nice way of saying far right which is basically facism which Fox News simply does not advocate.
2) Do you think the main entry I linked above Fox News Channel controversies, and its references to the specific language of "right-wing" is somehow wrong or unrepresentative of these criticisms?-- If you are refering to the very begining of the article where it says "Critics and some observers of the channel accuse it of political bias towards the political right" I think the language is correct. In fact I think we should change the sentence we are arguing about to "Fox News has been accused of having a bias towards the political right or Republican point of view at the expense of neutrality." Would you agree?-- Lucky Mitch ( talk) 06:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
My 2 cents: conservative and right-wing are different. Proof: G.W.B. is right-wing. G.W.B. is definitely not a conservative. Many republicans that I have spoken to have echoed this assessment. extreme right wingers tend to be neoconservatives, like G.W.B. and most of his appointees, and traditional conservatives agree that neoconservativism is quite far from traditional conservative values. I've heard people even go so far as to say they're considering voting democratic because some democrats are more conservative than right-wingers currently in office. right-wing is generally held to be synomymous w/republican, but conservative and right-wing are not synonymous. Kevin Baas talk 15:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, although the definitions of right wing and conservative overlap quite a bit, they are not exactly the same. TheNobleSith ( talk) 20:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
OP, you are wrong. Right-wing denotes extremist conservative views, i.e. on the fringe. All conservatives, though liberals believe otherwise, are not extremists. PokeHomsar ( talk) 03:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)