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This is a poll to decide which version should be used ( [1]) Note: Neutrality's version would include the Coulter paragraph also, adding that "Noted right-wing commentator Ann Coulter disputes..."
This is a poll to decide which version should be used ( [2]) Note: Neutrality's version would include the Coulter paragraph also, adding that "Noted right-wing commentator Ann Coulter disputes..."
Since somebody suggested breaking it up, I decided to start another poll (and since 4 ppl voted 'neither')
or
I would prefer a less shrill example be used instead of Coultier, but I couldn't find one. (Bill O'Reilly bragged on Fox News "Well, I think Fox News Channel was lucky because we were less skeptical of the war, and the war went very well. So we won.", but I think that's more a likely target of satire than a useful counter-opinion.) Anyway, if a more thoughtful counter-opinion can't be found, I think Coultier's general drift should be summarized, much like VV's version does. Quadell (talk) 15:09, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
If you have anything else to add, add it above.
Any way we could resolve these issues between your version and mine? Neutrality 04:13, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have you two even talked about what you're in dispute over? Other than the Ann Coulter quote, everything else is small potatoes. Fuzheado | Talk 06:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Somebody should add something about the movie Outfoxed. It's financed in part by MoveOn.org and the American Center for Progress and directed by Robert Greenwald, and it's main thesis is that Fox News is not imbued with a conservative bias but a Republican bias. That Fox News is the mouthpeice of the Republican party and not of conervatism in general. MoveOn has organized nationwide screening parties of the film, where people will screen the film in their home and invite others to join them. Afterwards there will be an online discussion. StoptheBus18 21:03, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wow. OK schmuck, first off it wasn't a movie it was a thirty second ad (I would try explain the difference but I'm not sure you'd understand). Second off it was for a competition where anyone could submit an entry. MoveOn.org did not make the add, some random people did. And what's more MoveOn removed and denounced the add. But oh I guess truth really isn't your strong point isn't it. While we're on the subject of Georgie boy let's talk about his ads comparing John Kerry to Hitler. Don't believe me motherfucker? Check it out here Der Furor: Bush plays the Nazi card. Geez you can't seem to win. Now not only is your pants pooping friend (O'Reilly of course) triviliazing the Holocaust, but so is your manchild demiG-d, little George. You make me sick, Court Jew. StoptheBus18 16:21, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"...which is more than you've done for anything that the democratic party (which is obviously who you support) has done." Yeah I read that like five times and I still have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I love how every time I engage you and I prove some dumbass thing you said wrong you just ignore it and take some tiny little issue other thing and attack that instead. But I guess truth has never really been the strength of the right wing has it? Otherwise we wouldn't be in Iraq would we? StoptheBus18 18:19, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
PS I'm way left of Democrat ;)
Last week, Democracy Now! interviewed the director of this movie and played a bunch of clips from the film. [4] The evidence is pretty damning. Especially the memos and the reporter's little 'chat' with President Bush right before giving an interview. The "Kerry is French" clip was hilarious. The director was also interviewed on FAIR's CounterSpin show. [5] I haven't seen the whole movie yet, but just from seeing these clips, Fox News' credibility just went into the toilet. Moreover, here Bill O'Reilly spinning the 9/11 Commission's findings. [6]-- GD 01:26, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I saw the trailer for the film, and I didn't find it impressive at all. It was quite clear that many of the clips in it were taken out of context and distorted to promote the movie's agenda. I checked the transcript of the full film, given on the Outfoxed website, and the clips seem to be the same. They might have some credible evidence, but given the deceptiveness of what I've seen, the credibility of the film is going down the toilet for me. There's an article on usatoday.com that claims the movie criticizes the FOX memos, but fails to acknowledge the numerous memos instructing reports to be fair in their coverage, and give each Presidential candidate equal time. [7] If true, that kind of deception is similar to others in the film. From the trailer, I noticed that much of their argument seems to be based on clips from debate and opinion shows such as Hannity & Colmes. They string together clips of Sean Hannity (a conservative), while removing Alan Colmes, thus making the views unbalanced. However, this movie does directly relate to FOX News, and is a fairly large issue, so it should probably be mentioned in the article; NPOV, of course. Another thing that should be mentioned is that FOX News has refuted several of the allegations in the film, claiming that some of the "former employees" interviewed were never actually employed there. - MattTM 09:18, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Clearly, Outfoxed deserves mention in the bias area of this page, because it is a sufficiently relevant movie to this television network in particular. If any other news network had been the subject of a topical and critical documentary, especially one that had a wikipedia entry, a mention and link would have been made. This has due justification. Flying hamster 09:50, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
MediaMatters.org has 33 internal Fox memos from John Moody. The memos give clear guidelines on how the network is supposed to handle certain stories (like Kerry "throwing away his medals). This has to be included NPOV of course. StoptheBus18 16:27, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Right here. Not only are they published but Media Matters has the actual photcopies of them. This is some good shit right here. StoptheBus18 18:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Fox News Channel is accused of being "right wing" and "conservative" and a "mouthpiece for the Republican party" because they actually allow those to the right of Pol Pot to express their views.
[An anonymous user here alleged that Rupert Murdoch supported Al Gore in the 2000 election, served as vice finance chairman for Gore's September 14, 2000 fundraiser at Radio City Music Hall in New York, and contributed $50,000 to Al Gore's presidential bid.]
At this point, I'm going to unprotect the page. I think the cooling-off period has lasted long enough. I'll make changes based on the consensus, as determined by the straw poll above. Quadell (talk) 13:09, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
A recent example of Fox bias:
As you probably heard today, Sandy Berger, Clinton's national security adviser, is accused of improperly removing classified documents from the National Archives related to terrorism.
Was Fox News lying when it made the following statement on its website.
"Berger and his lawyer said Monday night he knowingly removed the handwritten notes by placing them in his jacket, pants and socks, and also inadvertently took copies of actual classified documents in a leather portfolio."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126249,00.html
If Berger and his lawyer did not make such a statement Fox News has lied. At very least it is guilty of not checking sources when they agree with the Fox bias.
The guilt or innocence of Berger has no bearing on whether or not Fox news has made a false statement. Either Berger and/or his lawyer made the statement Fox claimed that they did, or Fox has distorted the coverage of this situation.
Here's a quick analysis, courtesy of Google News. All this was found by typing in "socks Berger" for a news search (and surprised me that Google News would pull up some pretty odd news sources). Conclusion: no real source for the socks
Neutrality, you recently made some changes to the PIPA section. I see two problems. One is the word "incorrect". This is tricky. Our NPOV policy says that if a large group of people believe something is true (e.g. creationism), then even if I know it's false, I can't say it's false on Wikipedia. Well, a lot of people believe WMDs were found in Iraq -- 50% of Fox viewers, aparently. And Coultier's diatribe lists several possible things that might have been found, and might be considered WMDs by those with good imaginations. With the other misconceptions, there's just a lot of wiggleroom. Is there a link between al-Qaida and Iraq? Not a meaningful one, but there are links -- a technicality Bush is currently hanging his hat on. Did the US get "wide" support for its war? How wide is wide? I just can't see how saying those things are "incorrect" is NPOV.
The other thing is, Coultier's essay doesn't say the report is full of "misconceptions". She says that what the report calls "misconceptions" actually aren't. Quadell (talk) 03:31, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)
following comments were initially on my talk page. I cut and pasted them here as this seemed more appropriate Refdoc 12:17, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC):
This last edit by anonymous user is less clear and more POV. I have reverted Refdoc 11:04, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
And as a British English speaker I call a shovel a shovel... . I have used the term I am used to. And this is "proscribed organisation", which is a British legal term, in common use in the UK and in other British English speaking countries and perfectly well understood. "Terrorist organisation" sounds in my (British trained) ear populist, POV and not helpful to clarify the exact position. But I see where you are coming from and I found in the meantime that your SoS uses the term "designated as a foreign terrorist organisation" I have tried to incorporate this. I believe it is extremely important to not make value judgements but report facts - which is the proscription/designation rather than your (or my) particular view of the organisation - which is actually the same - if you care and look at my edits of the MKO article.
Leaving this particular aspect aside I still prefer my particular paragraph as it is more detailed. Please do not simply revert but incorporate the additional information.
Finally wrt to Fox - I could not care less. I find most American TV - as far as it is visible here ridiculous and hypocritical - but again, this has nothing to do with writing encycploedia articles Refdoc 20:50, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I protected the page to end an edit war. The parties are now encouraged to discuss the content here on the talk page. 172 00:47, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi! Sorry for the delay; I was busy with some Global Warming zealot.
OK, folks. This Fox News page is getting neutralized! That requires the following:
A couple examples:
and
This article will, after our collective input, more closely resemble the CNN article, which is simpler, more cleanly worded, and substantially more neutral. As a conscillatory gesture, I propose adding a section on "Allegations of bias" to the CNN article rather than deleting it completely from this article.
So that's it! Sorry to end the party, but we've got to look out for the kids! Let's leave the pointed blather and innuendo to the blogs and media pundits. Regards. ~thejackhmr
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This is a poll to decide which version should be used ( [1]) Note: Neutrality's version would include the Coulter paragraph also, adding that "Noted right-wing commentator Ann Coulter disputes..."
This is a poll to decide which version should be used ( [2]) Note: Neutrality's version would include the Coulter paragraph also, adding that "Noted right-wing commentator Ann Coulter disputes..."
Since somebody suggested breaking it up, I decided to start another poll (and since 4 ppl voted 'neither')
or
I would prefer a less shrill example be used instead of Coultier, but I couldn't find one. (Bill O'Reilly bragged on Fox News "Well, I think Fox News Channel was lucky because we were less skeptical of the war, and the war went very well. So we won.", but I think that's more a likely target of satire than a useful counter-opinion.) Anyway, if a more thoughtful counter-opinion can't be found, I think Coultier's general drift should be summarized, much like VV's version does. Quadell (talk) 15:09, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
If you have anything else to add, add it above.
Any way we could resolve these issues between your version and mine? Neutrality 04:13, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have you two even talked about what you're in dispute over? Other than the Ann Coulter quote, everything else is small potatoes. Fuzheado | Talk 06:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Somebody should add something about the movie Outfoxed. It's financed in part by MoveOn.org and the American Center for Progress and directed by Robert Greenwald, and it's main thesis is that Fox News is not imbued with a conservative bias but a Republican bias. That Fox News is the mouthpeice of the Republican party and not of conervatism in general. MoveOn has organized nationwide screening parties of the film, where people will screen the film in their home and invite others to join them. Afterwards there will be an online discussion. StoptheBus18 21:03, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wow. OK schmuck, first off it wasn't a movie it was a thirty second ad (I would try explain the difference but I'm not sure you'd understand). Second off it was for a competition where anyone could submit an entry. MoveOn.org did not make the add, some random people did. And what's more MoveOn removed and denounced the add. But oh I guess truth really isn't your strong point isn't it. While we're on the subject of Georgie boy let's talk about his ads comparing John Kerry to Hitler. Don't believe me motherfucker? Check it out here Der Furor: Bush plays the Nazi card. Geez you can't seem to win. Now not only is your pants pooping friend (O'Reilly of course) triviliazing the Holocaust, but so is your manchild demiG-d, little George. You make me sick, Court Jew. StoptheBus18 16:21, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"...which is more than you've done for anything that the democratic party (which is obviously who you support) has done." Yeah I read that like five times and I still have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I love how every time I engage you and I prove some dumbass thing you said wrong you just ignore it and take some tiny little issue other thing and attack that instead. But I guess truth has never really been the strength of the right wing has it? Otherwise we wouldn't be in Iraq would we? StoptheBus18 18:19, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
PS I'm way left of Democrat ;)
Last week, Democracy Now! interviewed the director of this movie and played a bunch of clips from the film. [4] The evidence is pretty damning. Especially the memos and the reporter's little 'chat' with President Bush right before giving an interview. The "Kerry is French" clip was hilarious. The director was also interviewed on FAIR's CounterSpin show. [5] I haven't seen the whole movie yet, but just from seeing these clips, Fox News' credibility just went into the toilet. Moreover, here Bill O'Reilly spinning the 9/11 Commission's findings. [6]-- GD 01:26, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I saw the trailer for the film, and I didn't find it impressive at all. It was quite clear that many of the clips in it were taken out of context and distorted to promote the movie's agenda. I checked the transcript of the full film, given on the Outfoxed website, and the clips seem to be the same. They might have some credible evidence, but given the deceptiveness of what I've seen, the credibility of the film is going down the toilet for me. There's an article on usatoday.com that claims the movie criticizes the FOX memos, but fails to acknowledge the numerous memos instructing reports to be fair in their coverage, and give each Presidential candidate equal time. [7] If true, that kind of deception is similar to others in the film. From the trailer, I noticed that much of their argument seems to be based on clips from debate and opinion shows such as Hannity & Colmes. They string together clips of Sean Hannity (a conservative), while removing Alan Colmes, thus making the views unbalanced. However, this movie does directly relate to FOX News, and is a fairly large issue, so it should probably be mentioned in the article; NPOV, of course. Another thing that should be mentioned is that FOX News has refuted several of the allegations in the film, claiming that some of the "former employees" interviewed were never actually employed there. - MattTM 09:18, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Clearly, Outfoxed deserves mention in the bias area of this page, because it is a sufficiently relevant movie to this television network in particular. If any other news network had been the subject of a topical and critical documentary, especially one that had a wikipedia entry, a mention and link would have been made. This has due justification. Flying hamster 09:50, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
MediaMatters.org has 33 internal Fox memos from John Moody. The memos give clear guidelines on how the network is supposed to handle certain stories (like Kerry "throwing away his medals). This has to be included NPOV of course. StoptheBus18 16:27, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Right here. Not only are they published but Media Matters has the actual photcopies of them. This is some good shit right here. StoptheBus18 18:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Fox News Channel is accused of being "right wing" and "conservative" and a "mouthpiece for the Republican party" because they actually allow those to the right of Pol Pot to express their views.
[An anonymous user here alleged that Rupert Murdoch supported Al Gore in the 2000 election, served as vice finance chairman for Gore's September 14, 2000 fundraiser at Radio City Music Hall in New York, and contributed $50,000 to Al Gore's presidential bid.]
At this point, I'm going to unprotect the page. I think the cooling-off period has lasted long enough. I'll make changes based on the consensus, as determined by the straw poll above. Quadell (talk) 13:09, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
A recent example of Fox bias:
As you probably heard today, Sandy Berger, Clinton's national security adviser, is accused of improperly removing classified documents from the National Archives related to terrorism.
Was Fox News lying when it made the following statement on its website.
"Berger and his lawyer said Monday night he knowingly removed the handwritten notes by placing them in his jacket, pants and socks, and also inadvertently took copies of actual classified documents in a leather portfolio."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126249,00.html
If Berger and his lawyer did not make such a statement Fox News has lied. At very least it is guilty of not checking sources when they agree with the Fox bias.
The guilt or innocence of Berger has no bearing on whether or not Fox news has made a false statement. Either Berger and/or his lawyer made the statement Fox claimed that they did, or Fox has distorted the coverage of this situation.
Here's a quick analysis, courtesy of Google News. All this was found by typing in "socks Berger" for a news search (and surprised me that Google News would pull up some pretty odd news sources). Conclusion: no real source for the socks
Neutrality, you recently made some changes to the PIPA section. I see two problems. One is the word "incorrect". This is tricky. Our NPOV policy says that if a large group of people believe something is true (e.g. creationism), then even if I know it's false, I can't say it's false on Wikipedia. Well, a lot of people believe WMDs were found in Iraq -- 50% of Fox viewers, aparently. And Coultier's diatribe lists several possible things that might have been found, and might be considered WMDs by those with good imaginations. With the other misconceptions, there's just a lot of wiggleroom. Is there a link between al-Qaida and Iraq? Not a meaningful one, but there are links -- a technicality Bush is currently hanging his hat on. Did the US get "wide" support for its war? How wide is wide? I just can't see how saying those things are "incorrect" is NPOV.
The other thing is, Coultier's essay doesn't say the report is full of "misconceptions". She says that what the report calls "misconceptions" actually aren't. Quadell (talk) 03:31, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)
following comments were initially on my talk page. I cut and pasted them here as this seemed more appropriate Refdoc 12:17, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC):
This last edit by anonymous user is less clear and more POV. I have reverted Refdoc 11:04, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
And as a British English speaker I call a shovel a shovel... . I have used the term I am used to. And this is "proscribed organisation", which is a British legal term, in common use in the UK and in other British English speaking countries and perfectly well understood. "Terrorist organisation" sounds in my (British trained) ear populist, POV and not helpful to clarify the exact position. But I see where you are coming from and I found in the meantime that your SoS uses the term "designated as a foreign terrorist organisation" I have tried to incorporate this. I believe it is extremely important to not make value judgements but report facts - which is the proscription/designation rather than your (or my) particular view of the organisation - which is actually the same - if you care and look at my edits of the MKO article.
Leaving this particular aspect aside I still prefer my particular paragraph as it is more detailed. Please do not simply revert but incorporate the additional information.
Finally wrt to Fox - I could not care less. I find most American TV - as far as it is visible here ridiculous and hypocritical - but again, this has nothing to do with writing encycploedia articles Refdoc 20:50, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I protected the page to end an edit war. The parties are now encouraged to discuss the content here on the talk page. 172 00:47, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi! Sorry for the delay; I was busy with some Global Warming zealot.
OK, folks. This Fox News page is getting neutralized! That requires the following:
A couple examples:
and
This article will, after our collective input, more closely resemble the CNN article, which is simpler, more cleanly worded, and substantially more neutral. As a conscillatory gesture, I propose adding a section on "Allegations of bias" to the CNN article rather than deleting it completely from this article.
So that's it! Sorry to end the party, but we've got to look out for the kids! Let's leave the pointed blather and innuendo to the blogs and media pundits. Regards. ~thejackhmr