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I was wondering why this bizarre "Fox News = Air America" meme suddenly popped up out of nowhere, and I've found out why: This blog entry on the Huffington Post last week by little-known liberal radio talk show host Thom Hartmann. Now that we know where it's coming from, it just makes its inclusion in the article all the more of a WP:NPOV violation. -- Aaron 21:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
How so? What specific NPOV policy does it violate? Kevin Baas talk 15:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Due to the gigantic size of this talk page, I've moved every discussion that's been quiet since October 20 to Talk:FOX News/Archive 15. If I moved a section that anyone still wishes to keep active, just let me know and I'll move it back. -- Aaron 20:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done some research (currently ongoing) to verify some of the cite-needed and currently disputed issues. I have not incorporated any references into the article (yet), but I think they're good talking points.
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help)Plenty more research is forthcoming, but I figured this is a good starting point. / Blaxthos 16:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you claim the second reference as original research? The research was done by university professors and researches, and published by UC Berkeley. Additionally, the research bolsters/gives tangeable proof to claims made by others (and by the first reference) -- solid numbers countrywide that show that the presence of Fox News increases conservative voting in virtually all districts (read the research). I fail to see how this qualifies as original research (when it's independantly published, verifiable, peer reviewed). Maybe I'm missing something... / Blaxthos 15:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
We're not using this research to say "Fox News is biased." We're using the research to say (paraphrased) "Research shows that the number of Repblican votes increased in each market as Fox News channel became available." It gives tangable (verifiable & duplicated) proof that the presence of Fox News has increased Republican votes. It neither speculates why nor attempts to draw conclusions. / Blaxthos 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about where, if at all, information regarding FNC's alleged conservative bias should be included. 01:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I didnt have a problem with it either. It's definitly short, concise and to the point. Again, I don't think any mention should be in the intro, but this version seems like a good point of compromise to me. I can live with this as the last part of the intro. AuburnPilot 21:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes, then President of CNBC and a former Republican political consultant for U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
I will not support the version above, because it cherry picks the role Ailes played as a GOP consultant, to subtly push the POV that this was a relevant fact in hiring Ailes. Isarig 22:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
/ Blaxthos 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
“ | The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is seen by critics of the channel, such as Air America and Robert Greenwold as advocating conservative political positions. The channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
Ramsquire 17:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions; [1] however, the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
With concerns of a reference, how about the above with the slight modification of a reference in place of air america/greenwold. AuburnPilot Talk 18:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted (AGF notwithstanding) that some editors seem to be set on finding new objections when the old ones are satisfied (first, there are unsourced generalizations in the intro; then specific citations shouldldn't be in the intro; now, weasle words are the problem) -- almost like the goal is specifically to keep it out of the intro by using whatever means necessary. I don't think consensus requires 100% agreememnt, especially when evaluating those who find new objections when it serves their purpose. Sorry to fall off the good faith bandwagon, but it's hard to keep the faith when it appears the intent is to construct further obstacles instead of finding solutions to existing issues. A hearty thanks to those of you (war eagle!) who have been truely working towards finding a solution. As for my opinion, I thought we pretty much had it tidied up a week ago (see above). / Blaxthos 00:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about what the wording of the following statement in the introduction:
“ | Fox News is seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions[2]; however, the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
“ | Critics such as Robert Greenwald and Air America Radio accuse Fox News of advocating conservative political positions, while a 2004 survey of journalists found that Fox was "the single news outlet that strikes most journalists as taking a particular ideological stance". The channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
Cbuhl79 18:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]
[21]I will assume good faith and participate in this malformed RfC. The first intro was reached by a consensus of editors on this page, and to me is sufficient, under WP:LEAD. Now one particular user still has a problem under WP:WEASEL. I believe this is one of the areas where said guideline does not apply. The critics of Foxnews who believe it espouses a conservative position is too numerous and diverse to quantify as just far left or left as shown by the survey cited in the paragraph. Are all those jouranlists liberal? That would be a statistical oddity. Current paragraph is fine. Ramsquire 18:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment: The sentence in question seems fine and non-weaselly to me. I would, however, put the footnote mark after the semicolon:
Comment. I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. As Ramsquire said, Fox News is widely viewed as holding a conservative position, not just by the left-wing. Trebor 00:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Comment: I'd add the survey of journalists - that's pretty remarkable/notable/significant. And I'd take out however. And you don't need to say what their slogans are, that's not really relevant, and it's uninteresting and unimportant. Just say something like "FOX denies these allegations." (thou in all fairness, it the survey results do not constitute an allegation). Kevin Baas talk 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and made the change I suggested above - "Critics such as Robert Greenwald have accused Fox News of advocating conservative opinions, and according to the Quarterly Journal of Economics, Fox News is significantly to the right of all the other mainstream television networks. Fox News denies allegations of bias in their news reporting.". I added two references, can someone take a look at them and make sure they are correctly formatted? (in particular, I just referenced the Outfoxed web page directly, is that ok?). Also, does anyone think I need a specific reference for Fox News denying bias? Cbuhl79 18:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice that Wikipedia goes into exhaustive, meticulous detail in describing Air America Radio's current bankruptcy woes. But this article on Fox News completely ignores the fact that, early in its history, Fox News itself underwent a corporate restructuring and bankruptcy. Fox News didn't turn a profit until 2002, (many years after it first began broadcasting). For that matter, Rush Limbaugh and talk radio took years of struggle and fiscal losses before they gained an audience and became profitable. Air America is only a couple of years old and it is still working to build an audience. For Wikipedia to focus solely on Air America's woes and then completely ignore the similar early fiscal woes suffered by Fox News and right-wing talk radio is conveying the (mistaken) message that Americans aren't supportive of a liberal radio network (when in reality, Air America is simply undergoing the teething pains of many types of new businesses, Fox News included). For Wikipedia to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and shows how this "reference" source has been hijacked by the extreme right-wing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.86.120.67 ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
This 1999 Online NewHour interview features none other than Brit Hume himself saying that Fox News is losing "$80 million to $90 million a year" and is expected to lose money "for a couple more years." http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec99/cable_7-12.html My point on all this is that, if Wikipedia is going to exhaustively detail every single fiscal woe suffered in Air America's history, then the article on Fox News ought to point out that Fox News also suffered early on in its history.
Unfortunately, I showed good faith and participated in an RfC on an issue where consensus had already been reached. Seeing what has happened since, now I feel like a fool. After days and days of discussion several editors almost all agreed on the form and wording of the introductory paragraph. Now the paragraph has been changed based on the passive approval of two persons who were not involved in the original RfC, and over the unanimous objection of all other editors who participated in the original RfC. This is bad faith, and totally unacceptable to the content dispute process at Wiki. When I showed Cbuhl, that consensus has been reached, he disputed it, saying in effect "4-2 isn't a consensus" (notwithstanding that all editors who participated in the RfC approved of the previous version to varying degrees). Several of those editors refused to get involved in this one. That is evidence that consensus has been reached. Here's where the bad faith lies, Cbuhl has changed the intro solely on his version and on two other editors. I will revert, until someone shows me that consensus had not been reached previously. Ramsquire 19:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, can you two explain why it is ok to violate this part of the WP:NPOV policy -
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Your position seems to be that because you believe criticism of Fox News is "widespread", that a source of criticism should not be clearly identified. To be clear, I'm not insisting that this version be the final version, if further discussion is necessary to reach consensus, then let's have further discussion. Cbuhl79 19:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, arguments against my changes have failed to explain why it is ok to violate WP:NPOV, and instead make ad hominum attacks, despite the fact that I have kept this in the discussion page as much as possible, and despite the fact that I have not actively tried to push one POV over the other (insisting only that sources be clearly identified). I only made the most recent change after discussion with two new editors who agreed with my WP:NPOV objections, and after leaving the discussion in place for over a day. I'll revert this only one more time right now, since I'm not interested in taking part in a revert war, but please note from WP:CONSENSUS (emphasis added):
“ | It is assumed that editors working toward consensus are pursuing a consensus that is consistent with Wikipedia's basic policies and principles - especially the neutral point of view (NPOV). At times, a group of editors may be able to, through persistence, numbers, and organization, overwhelm well-meaning editors and generate what appears to be support for a version of the article that is actually inaccurate, libelous, or not neutral, e.g. giving undue weight to a specific point of view. This is not a consensus. | ” |
Cbuhl79 20:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
(My fifth attempt to post this; edit conflicts keep getting in the way.) While I agree with Ramsquire, AuburnPilot and Blaxthos, I also have a separate problem with Cbuhl79's edit: It raises Robert Greenwald and the Quarterly Journal of Economics to an unreasonably high level of implied importance. As is, the opening comes off as, "FNC is a news channel, etc. The mighty Robert Greenwald has stated that they have a conservative bias." That's the reason this level of granularity is generally put much further down in articles; it throws off the opening in general and helps make the POV come off as important as the subject itself. -- Aaron 19:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Sometimes, a potentially biased statement can be reframed into an NPOV statement by attributing or substantiating it.
For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true. |
” |
“ |
|
” |
Cbuhl79 20:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, I agree that my tone in the last few comments may appear particularly caustic. I encourage you to read them in context -- It appears you failed to read the original RfC discussions that occured, which may assist in understanding why I felt such diction was necessary. Hope this helps. / Blaxthos 20:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, I was referring more to the other editors than to Ramsquire. I made the change this morning only after discussion with other editors yesterday. I haven't seen anyone explain why it's ok to violate the WP:NPOV policy listed here:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
All of the arguments against me have been centered around how "consensus" has already been reached and how I'm guilty of "sour grapes" - while I've been consistently arguing for adherence to Wikipedia policies. I originally objected to inclusions of criticism without clearly citing the source because I think it is POV. I originally argued my point using WP:WEASEL, but it was pointed out that WP:WEASEL is a guideline, not a policy, so I found references in WP:NPOV that I believe support my position that a prominent holder of the opinion should be clearly cited, and have not yet seen any arguments why this should not be the case Cbuhl79 21:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Not sure where to put this, so I figured I'd drop it here. Move as appropriate.
“ | Thank you for your comment. I'll admit I may be being hard-headed in (what I believe) is a defense of WP:NPOV, but I've been subjected to numerous personal attacks and accusations ever since the other editors declared that consensus had been reached. | ” |
— Cbuhl79 |
The preceeding was found left on Kevin's talk page by Cbuhl79. I think this is just a continued example of how Cbuhl abuses the good faith issued to him.
To Cbuhl79: I would like you to demonstrate where any one of us has issued any sort of personal attack against you. Please give us examples of how we've "attacked and accused" you.
/ Blaxthos 21:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Let me try to clarify a few key points for you:
It is my sincere hope that this experience will help you learn how to appropriately contribute and improve articles. / Blaxthos 02:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Once again, you avoid addressing my concern with the violation of WP:NPOV, and instead focus on the fact that I earlier objected to a violation of WP:WEASEL. I object to violations of WP:WEASEL because I feel that they are used to push a POV, and the WP:NPOV policy supports my view:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Cbuhl79 12:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
It is quite sufficient to say "many" if the sentence is immediately followed with (a) a reference which makes that same point about criticism or (b) several references to critics making the charge themselves. The only operative policy here is verifiability, and that satisfies it. Indeed, a long listing of critics by name would probably violate the undue weight provision. Derex 19:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, my main interest is in observing the spirit and the letter of
WP:NPOV, see:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion... It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Note also that the "undue weight" clause of WP:NPOV has absolutely nothing to do with "giving undue weight to any one particular critic". To the contrary, the "undue weight" clause explicitly suggests it:
“ | "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; | ” |
This is my only suggestion, that we change the introduction statement to name a prominent critic, as opposed to (or in addition to) merely citing a survey of journalists. I fail to see how there can be any objections under the WP:NPOV policy to changing the current introduction - "Fox News is seen by many critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions" to something like "Critics of Fox News such as <<Prominent Critic>> accuse Fox News of advocating conservative political positions." Originally I cited WP:WEASEL as my motivation for objection, other editors argued (not unreasonably) that it was a "guideline" and not a "policy". To satisfy that argument, I objected on the basis of the "policy" WP:NPOV. Objections to my proposed changes since then have centered around making exceptions as to why we shouldn't strictly adhere to WP:NPOV. I'm not at all opposed to someone exploring Wikipedia policy to find other arguments for why these exceptions should be made. Cbuhl79 23:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies... The principles upon which these three policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. | ” |
“ | ...and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Trebor,
I appreciate your willingness to assist in this situation, however I think it is important to note the following:
The way to end it? Simply stop responding. If you agree that it should end, then absolutely do not call for another vote to rehash dead issues -- all that does is stir the water more!
Admittedly, I had planned to stop responding after the last post, but then more people kept jumping in, seemingly without understanding the complete history involved. I think several points you made on my talk page actually were covered in previous public postings (regarding AGF, personal attacks (which you also claim occur, so I am asking for you to cite them if you still assert they have occured), past votes and consensus).
If you think Cbuhl is correct, then jump in the fray -- I think even with two or three more voices the consensus would not be overturned (though I strongly acknowledge WP:CCC) but this is just one big whinefest over sour grapes. If you do not think Cbuhl is correct, then I urge you to explain to him why he is wrong (as we've all tried) instead of coddling him by agreeing to another vote. I also suggest re-reading what happened to the one person who did decide to AGF and re-participate in the (invalid) second RfC. Might make you think twice about acquescing to the squeaky wheel.
Anyway, hope this didn't come off as too harsh. / Blaxthos 21:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Blockquotes are Trebor, responses are blaxthos -
I think cbuhl is still acting in good faith (based on the tone of his postings) and doesn't think the issue is as cut and dried as you do.
His tone shouldn't be how you evaluate his "good faith" -- actions speak louder than words.
the current intro came after discussion (not a vote) at the end of the last RfC which had began on a different topic.
Negative. The end goal is the same, even if the vehicle used is differet. Please read WP:POINT. Finding new ways to effect the same change is clearly discussed in several policies and guidelines.
it had been going on for 5 days already with little progress.
Indeed, there is no progress to be made. Consensus has been reached. Issue has been discussed to death. Current discussions are to try and help Cbuhl (and now you) understand why further discussion is moot.
I'd been following the discussion for several days without commenting and thought it was getting nowhere, so suggested a poll, with agreement in advance to adhere to the result, might break the deadlock. But then you jump on me as if I've done something wrong.
One individual who refuses to accept the community consensus is not a deadlock. Wikipedia would get nowhere if every change had to be met with complete agreement by all parties. To be honest, I do think it's wrong that you want to continue opening the issue for further vote, totally bypassing the endless work that we have done to (1) refine the article to meet with consensus views, and (2) explain to Cbuh79 why/how his view is out of line. That shows a complete disrespect to all of us who have used hundreds of kilobytes to try and help him understand why.
You shouldn't be afraid to defend your position,
Hey now, let's not violate WP:OR and WP:AGF with me -- my reasons aren't because I am "afraid to defend [my] position". My "defense" (improper wording) of "my" position is neither a defense, nor is it my position. The consensus was reached a while back by a number of editors (not asserted by me). The reasoning for such can be foudn in the endless volumes on the talk page. The "defense" (which should be described as "explaination") has been explained at least half a dozen times by like, five or six editors.
You should also note that this isn't the only place Cbuhl has been told he's wrong on this issue -- go read the talk pages for the policies and templates he's even trying to cite! How many people saying "that is incorrect" do you think we need before his continued objection should be viewed as invalid?
if you think there was already a vote (an actual poll) on the issue in question can you point me to it because I can't find it.
WP:CONSENSUS does not require an "actual poll" or vote -- in fact, in circumstances like this it is very much more productive to have a collaborative effort (which we did!) instead of "pick one." You should be able to read everyone's comments (from the last 2 weeks or however long it's been) and get a pretty clear indication that the only one supporting Cbuhl79's position is Cbuhl79.
Again, I think it's nothing but counterproductive for you to give validity to Cbuhl79's behavior. The precedent this sets is dangerous and not in the best interests of the project -- I liken it to a prison sentence that won't be imposed until all appeals are exhausted, and there is always an opportunity to repeatedly appeal. / Blaxthos 08:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Addendum - Thought these quotes, from WP:CONSENSUS would help Cbuhl and Trebor get some clarification:
The preferred way to deal with this problem is to draw the attention of other editors to the issue by some of the methods of dispute resolution, such as consulting a third party, filing a request for comment (on the article in question), and requesting mediation. Enlarging the pool will prevent the railroading of articles by a dedicated few. In the case of a small group of editors who find that their facts and point of view are being excluded by a larger group of editors, it is worth considering that they may be mistaken.
Precise numbers for "supermajority" are hard to establish, and Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy, so simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate.
Hope this helps! / Blaxthos 08:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have opened a request for arbitration here [24] regarding the wording of the sentence in the introduction about Fox News' bias. Since two of the editors involved have explicitly stated that they believe I am not acting good faith, I decided to seek arbitration on the matter. I notified the three editors who I know are strongly in disagreement with me, I also notified four other editors who have been involved since I opened the second RfC. I encourage any other interested parties to comment on the matter in the Arbitration Request. I have also closed (or am about to) the RfC that I opened. Cbuhl79 17:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The above Request for Arbitration was removed from the ArbCom request page on 28 October 2006, 05:02 (UTC) after being unanimously (0/4/0/0) rejected by the committee. The four votes were cast by ArbCom members Fred Bauder, Charles Matthews, Jayjg, and Matthew Brown (Morven). AuburnPilot Talk 05:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the problem I have: CNN has been accused of multiple biases for years on end, but there is not a single statement in the opening part of the article that it has been accused of any of them. We need to hold NPOV seriously, and not addressing a bias in the early potions of the CNN article (remember, CNN and Fox News are direct competitors) would be in violation of that if we include it in Fox News' article as well. Arguing that accusations against Fox News are in any way more notable than the accusations against CNN would not relate to a summary of the article in whole; if we are to include a criticism in one area of a similar article, we are expected to do it in another. I fail to see how it is notable at all, in either cases, to bring up allegations in the opening statements - and if we do it to one, we must do it to the other. -- Mrmiscellanious 03:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
When the items being discussed are clearly in violation of a site policy (WP:NPOV): the text, as it stands right now, reads: "Fox News is seen by some critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions". There is an eerily similar statement in WP:NPOV that prohibits this use in any Wikipedia article:
“ | There is a temptation to rephrase biased or opinion statements with weasel words: "Many people think John Doe is the best baseball player." But statements of this form are subject to obvious attacks: "Yes, many people think so, but only ignorant people"; and "Just how many is 'many'? I think it's only 'a few' who think that!" By attributing the claim to a known authority, or substantiating the facts behind it, you can avoid these problems. | ” |
As it stands now, the statement included in the opening sentences of Fox News violate the weasel words section of WP:NPOV (it is not just a recommendation). Failing to be specific on this violates WP:NPOV, as it is clearly shown above. -- Mrmiscellanious 04:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Source is not cited specifically as to the "fact" it represents from the source. If it is indeed in the source that it is stated, please provide more specifics as to where it is located so that others can verify its content. -- Mrmiscellanious 04:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons. | ” |
Mrmiscellanious seems to be a sockpuppet of Cbuhl79. I am going to report it to WP:SSP. That being said, the fact is the perception by some not the actual bias. Therefore it is properly cited (even though it need not be at all). Ramsquire (throw me a line) 19:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this isn't to make a point - and no, I have no intention of starting a revert war (I did make a point by the recent 3RR violation, as you can see in my edit comment, I even admitted I was breaking the policy). One reason why I am doing this is not because I think Fox News has a liberal or conservative bias (or none, for that matter) - the statement has its own section, and without going into specifics in the opening (something we want to avoid), we make it seem as if it is a consensus that Fox News is a conservative organization. We present disputed facts if they are found to be by consensus (and there is a dispute), but we do not present opinion if there is a consensus and a dispute is present - unless it is, of course, attributed and sourced correctly, which would in turn make it a fact. The statement, as it stands, still reads:
“ | Fox News is seen by some critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions. | ” |
Factual? Sure, but it is just as factual as a statement with the exact opposite content. It can be added, without any issue at all, that the statement came from the Project for Excellence in Journalism's 2006(?) report, and a more specific link would be added to make this statement undoubtedly factual. But I don't like seeing a statement with no attribution as extreme as this in an opening statement of an article that should not have as many NPOV discussions as this one has, and it's even more frustrating when there is not a more specific source cited in the footnote. The report is extremely large, and even adding a page number of the official report, or weblink to the section it is included, would make this a verifiable fact. I don't feel as if these are too hard of requests to make. -- Mrmiscellanious 00:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to spell out what I think the consensus is re-- the intro: "Since the perception of Foxnews having a conservative bias (whether the perception is accurate or not is irrelevant) is sufficiently widespread, to leave it out of the article would violate NPOV. This perception is also one of the factors that makes Foxnews notable, so it should be mentioned in the introduction. Also, since the perception (again not any actual bias just a perception) is so widely known to exist it need not be cited at all. Since the holders of this perception are too diverse and numerous to quantify, it is OK to use qualifiers like some or many to support the existence of the perception. However, to show that said perception is not being pulled out of thin air, there is a citation to a study showing the pervasiveness of the perception." To the editors who've already been through this, if I missed something please correct.
If someone wishes to reargue the intro, use the above as a reference point. We have no desire to keep arguing points that have already been made. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 21:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you guys think the storm has died down enough to archive the massively redundant and frustrating talk thus far? I don't think we should archive until all the dissonance has ended (due to the fact that it's necessary reference material for those who cry foul (though they don't seem to bother reading it)). I wonder what the lowest mean time to archive is... I'm sure this article would skew the results of that metric! /
Blaxthos
09:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Obviously not. / Blaxthos 18:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
(just to add a little more redundancy) i think the intro text can more closely follow the first sentence below(and cite its link), again from the State of the Media 2005 report -
Critics on the left and many in the mainstream dismiss or at least criticize Fox News as being one-sided. As the Atlanta Journal Constitution put it, “Detractors boil down Fox’s rise to a perceived pandering to a disaffected segment of society — read: white middle class — weary of U.S.-bashing here and abroad. They are eager to pin the scarlet letter C, for conservative, on the lapels of on-air personalities, beneath the tiny American flags that a few wear.”
— Cable TV section of the State of the Media 2005.
Doldrums 10:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, I agree with you (at least in part). I believe the "mainstream" wording is more appropriate, but also less likely to be agreed upon by some editors. The current wording is a compromise version. It is also my understanding that directly citing a source ("source joe says that..." / "critics such as frank say...") violates the undue influence constraint (especially when said criticism is too numerous and widespred to quantify). Personally, I don't think any reference should be given in the intro (undue influence) -- the fact that it is easily verifiable (by a number of methods) is all that I believe the policy requires. Anything more becomes undue weight. As I said, this was a compromise between many editors. Hope this helps! / Blaxthos 18:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Fox_News_Channel#Controversies_and_allegations_of_bias. There is an entire article devoted to the allegations of bias, yet this article can only find space for three measely sentences? I'm not even sure you can call that a "section", you can barely call it a "paragraph". I strongly think it should be expanded to a more representative proportion. Kevin Baas talk 18:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The con/crit section in this article is merely meant to say, essentially that there are controversies and criticisms in the first place. There's no reason to put extra stuff in theis section when it can be added to the actual controveries article. Edders 14:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does the Fox news channel insist on being dishonest and deceitful by claiming to be fair and balanced? I don't think Air America makes any such claims. 01001 17:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
When they claim they're "fair and balanced" it makes their job easier to lie to the uneducated people who watch the channel and make them believe every word they say. It's a fact. Fox News doesn't report on facts, because they have a liberal bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.221.37 ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 4 December 2006
I have a few issues with the addition of this this section to the article. I know the recent post election memo has received a lot of attention in the blogoshpere, but has this memo been authenticated by anyone? A quick search through google news using the search term "Fox News Internal Memo" only gives a cite to the Huffington blog. Also, the section makes this claim "There has been at least one documented case of Fox News fabricating information on-air to support the version of reality requested in an executive memo" without any evidentiary support by way of citation. It also makes the claim that "Within hours of the memo's publication, Fox News anchors were on-air with with unsubstantiated reports of "cheering" Iraqi insurgents" again without evidentiary support. The HuffingtonPost.com link attached only has the pdf of the memo, and comments by viewers of the site. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 01:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Jmayer The posted section on the leaked internal memo contains a citation reference to a photograph of the actual memo. If you like, you can add a claim such as "I personally beleive the memo to be a forgery," even though Fox News has never disavowed the authenticity of the leaked memo. However, deleting the entire section is censorship of cited factual information, and violates Wikipedia's neutral POV. In other words: you can't just delete factual relevant information you personally dislike, people.
Jmayer I propose: I will edit the relevant passage, and qualify the memo citation with information regarding it's source, and the difficulties of verifying the authenticity of the document. I will also indicate that Fox News has not disavowed the memo, and will update the section if and when Fox News does issue an official statement on this issue. Will that be sufficient to address your concerns?
Jmayer I would also like to add that the existence of this memo has been reported as news by outlets such as MSNBC. It's not just "some blog," and I will attempt to find additional citations.
I'm sure you all know the controversy over Foley and his perverted ways, but while reporting on it, Fox News actually changed his title from a republican to a democrat, I can't find a source but i saw it on best week ever(I Know not the most intelectual show) and they showed a clip from fox news, and there it was (D)Mick Foley, this should be added to the controversy section if someone finds a valid source.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.206.75 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 28 November 2006
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
for me; the International transmission section is showing up in the references section for some reason? is this the article or just me? - -[ The Spooky One | [ t c r 02:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
I was wondering why this bizarre "Fox News = Air America" meme suddenly popped up out of nowhere, and I've found out why: This blog entry on the Huffington Post last week by little-known liberal radio talk show host Thom Hartmann. Now that we know where it's coming from, it just makes its inclusion in the article all the more of a WP:NPOV violation. -- Aaron 21:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
How so? What specific NPOV policy does it violate? Kevin Baas talk 15:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Due to the gigantic size of this talk page, I've moved every discussion that's been quiet since October 20 to Talk:FOX News/Archive 15. If I moved a section that anyone still wishes to keep active, just let me know and I'll move it back. -- Aaron 20:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done some research (currently ongoing) to verify some of the cite-needed and currently disputed issues. I have not incorporated any references into the article (yet), but I think they're good talking points.
{{
cite journal}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
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help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help){{
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: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)Plenty more research is forthcoming, but I figured this is a good starting point. / Blaxthos 16:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you claim the second reference as original research? The research was done by university professors and researches, and published by UC Berkeley. Additionally, the research bolsters/gives tangeable proof to claims made by others (and by the first reference) -- solid numbers countrywide that show that the presence of Fox News increases conservative voting in virtually all districts (read the research). I fail to see how this qualifies as original research (when it's independantly published, verifiable, peer reviewed). Maybe I'm missing something... / Blaxthos 15:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
We're not using this research to say "Fox News is biased." We're using the research to say (paraphrased) "Research shows that the number of Repblican votes increased in each market as Fox News channel became available." It gives tangable (verifiable & duplicated) proof that the presence of Fox News has increased Republican votes. It neither speculates why nor attempts to draw conclusions. / Blaxthos 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about where, if at all, information regarding FNC's alleged conservative bias should be included. 01:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I didnt have a problem with it either. It's definitly short, concise and to the point. Again, I don't think any mention should be in the intro, but this version seems like a good point of compromise to me. I can live with this as the last part of the intro. AuburnPilot 21:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes, then President of CNBC and a former Republican political consultant for U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
I will not support the version above, because it cherry picks the role Ailes played as a GOP consultant, to subtly push the POV that this was a relevant fact in hiring Ailes. Isarig 22:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
/ Blaxthos 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is widely seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions, a charge which the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies.
“ | The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is seen by critics of the channel, such as Air America and Robert Greenwold as advocating conservative political positions. The channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
Ramsquire 17:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | The channel was created by Austrailian-American media magnate Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. Fox News is seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions; [1] however, the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
With concerns of a reference, how about the above with the slight modification of a reference in place of air america/greenwold. AuburnPilot Talk 18:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted (AGF notwithstanding) that some editors seem to be set on finding new objections when the old ones are satisfied (first, there are unsourced generalizations in the intro; then specific citations shouldldn't be in the intro; now, weasle words are the problem) -- almost like the goal is specifically to keep it out of the intro by using whatever means necessary. I don't think consensus requires 100% agreememnt, especially when evaluating those who find new objections when it serves their purpose. Sorry to fall off the good faith bandwagon, but it's hard to keep the faith when it appears the intent is to construct further obstacles instead of finding solutions to existing issues. A hearty thanks to those of you (war eagle!) who have been truely working towards finding a solution. As for my opinion, I thought we pretty much had it tidied up a week ago (see above). / Blaxthos 00:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about what the wording of the following statement in the introduction:
“ | Fox News is seen by critics of the channel as advocating conservative political positions[2]; however, the channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
“ | Critics such as Robert Greenwald and Air America Radio accuse Fox News of advocating conservative political positions, while a 2004 survey of journalists found that Fox was "the single news outlet that strikes most journalists as taking a particular ideological stance". The channel, whose slogans include "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide", denies allegations of bias in their news reporting. | ” |
Cbuhl79 18:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]
[21]I will assume good faith and participate in this malformed RfC. The first intro was reached by a consensus of editors on this page, and to me is sufficient, under WP:LEAD. Now one particular user still has a problem under WP:WEASEL. I believe this is one of the areas where said guideline does not apply. The critics of Foxnews who believe it espouses a conservative position is too numerous and diverse to quantify as just far left or left as shown by the survey cited in the paragraph. Are all those jouranlists liberal? That would be a statistical oddity. Current paragraph is fine. Ramsquire 18:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment: The sentence in question seems fine and non-weaselly to me. I would, however, put the footnote mark after the semicolon:
Comment. I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. As Ramsquire said, Fox News is widely viewed as holding a conservative position, not just by the left-wing. Trebor 00:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Comment: I'd add the survey of journalists - that's pretty remarkable/notable/significant. And I'd take out however. And you don't need to say what their slogans are, that's not really relevant, and it's uninteresting and unimportant. Just say something like "FOX denies these allegations." (thou in all fairness, it the survey results do not constitute an allegation). Kevin Baas talk 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and made the change I suggested above - "Critics such as Robert Greenwald have accused Fox News of advocating conservative opinions, and according to the Quarterly Journal of Economics, Fox News is significantly to the right of all the other mainstream television networks. Fox News denies allegations of bias in their news reporting.". I added two references, can someone take a look at them and make sure they are correctly formatted? (in particular, I just referenced the Outfoxed web page directly, is that ok?). Also, does anyone think I need a specific reference for Fox News denying bias? Cbuhl79 18:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice that Wikipedia goes into exhaustive, meticulous detail in describing Air America Radio's current bankruptcy woes. But this article on Fox News completely ignores the fact that, early in its history, Fox News itself underwent a corporate restructuring and bankruptcy. Fox News didn't turn a profit until 2002, (many years after it first began broadcasting). For that matter, Rush Limbaugh and talk radio took years of struggle and fiscal losses before they gained an audience and became profitable. Air America is only a couple of years old and it is still working to build an audience. For Wikipedia to focus solely on Air America's woes and then completely ignore the similar early fiscal woes suffered by Fox News and right-wing talk radio is conveying the (mistaken) message that Americans aren't supportive of a liberal radio network (when in reality, Air America is simply undergoing the teething pains of many types of new businesses, Fox News included). For Wikipedia to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and shows how this "reference" source has been hijacked by the extreme right-wing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.86.120.67 ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
This 1999 Online NewHour interview features none other than Brit Hume himself saying that Fox News is losing "$80 million to $90 million a year" and is expected to lose money "for a couple more years." http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec99/cable_7-12.html My point on all this is that, if Wikipedia is going to exhaustively detail every single fiscal woe suffered in Air America's history, then the article on Fox News ought to point out that Fox News also suffered early on in its history.
Unfortunately, I showed good faith and participated in an RfC on an issue where consensus had already been reached. Seeing what has happened since, now I feel like a fool. After days and days of discussion several editors almost all agreed on the form and wording of the introductory paragraph. Now the paragraph has been changed based on the passive approval of two persons who were not involved in the original RfC, and over the unanimous objection of all other editors who participated in the original RfC. This is bad faith, and totally unacceptable to the content dispute process at Wiki. When I showed Cbuhl, that consensus has been reached, he disputed it, saying in effect "4-2 isn't a consensus" (notwithstanding that all editors who participated in the RfC approved of the previous version to varying degrees). Several of those editors refused to get involved in this one. That is evidence that consensus has been reached. Here's where the bad faith lies, Cbuhl has changed the intro solely on his version and on two other editors. I will revert, until someone shows me that consensus had not been reached previously. Ramsquire 19:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, can you two explain why it is ok to violate this part of the WP:NPOV policy -
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Your position seems to be that because you believe criticism of Fox News is "widespread", that a source of criticism should not be clearly identified. To be clear, I'm not insisting that this version be the final version, if further discussion is necessary to reach consensus, then let's have further discussion. Cbuhl79 19:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, arguments against my changes have failed to explain why it is ok to violate WP:NPOV, and instead make ad hominum attacks, despite the fact that I have kept this in the discussion page as much as possible, and despite the fact that I have not actively tried to push one POV over the other (insisting only that sources be clearly identified). I only made the most recent change after discussion with two new editors who agreed with my WP:NPOV objections, and after leaving the discussion in place for over a day. I'll revert this only one more time right now, since I'm not interested in taking part in a revert war, but please note from WP:CONSENSUS (emphasis added):
“ | It is assumed that editors working toward consensus are pursuing a consensus that is consistent with Wikipedia's basic policies and principles - especially the neutral point of view (NPOV). At times, a group of editors may be able to, through persistence, numbers, and organization, overwhelm well-meaning editors and generate what appears to be support for a version of the article that is actually inaccurate, libelous, or not neutral, e.g. giving undue weight to a specific point of view. This is not a consensus. | ” |
Cbuhl79 20:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
(My fifth attempt to post this; edit conflicts keep getting in the way.) While I agree with Ramsquire, AuburnPilot and Blaxthos, I also have a separate problem with Cbuhl79's edit: It raises Robert Greenwald and the Quarterly Journal of Economics to an unreasonably high level of implied importance. As is, the opening comes off as, "FNC is a news channel, etc. The mighty Robert Greenwald has stated that they have a conservative bias." That's the reason this level of granularity is generally put much further down in articles; it throws off the opening in general and helps make the POV come off as important as the subject itself. -- Aaron 19:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Sometimes, a potentially biased statement can be reframed into an NPOV statement by attributing or substantiating it.
For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true. |
” |
“ |
|
” |
Cbuhl79 20:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, I agree that my tone in the last few comments may appear particularly caustic. I encourage you to read them in context -- It appears you failed to read the original RfC discussions that occured, which may assist in understanding why I felt such diction was necessary. Hope this helps. / Blaxthos 20:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, I was referring more to the other editors than to Ramsquire. I made the change this morning only after discussion with other editors yesterday. I haven't seen anyone explain why it's ok to violate the WP:NPOV policy listed here:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
All of the arguments against me have been centered around how "consensus" has already been reached and how I'm guilty of "sour grapes" - while I've been consistently arguing for adherence to Wikipedia policies. I originally objected to inclusions of criticism without clearly citing the source because I think it is POV. I originally argued my point using WP:WEASEL, but it was pointed out that WP:WEASEL is a guideline, not a policy, so I found references in WP:NPOV that I believe support my position that a prominent holder of the opinion should be clearly cited, and have not yet seen any arguments why this should not be the case Cbuhl79 21:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Not sure where to put this, so I figured I'd drop it here. Move as appropriate.
“ | Thank you for your comment. I'll admit I may be being hard-headed in (what I believe) is a defense of WP:NPOV, but I've been subjected to numerous personal attacks and accusations ever since the other editors declared that consensus had been reached. | ” |
— Cbuhl79 |
The preceeding was found left on Kevin's talk page by Cbuhl79. I think this is just a continued example of how Cbuhl abuses the good faith issued to him.
To Cbuhl79: I would like you to demonstrate where any one of us has issued any sort of personal attack against you. Please give us examples of how we've "attacked and accused" you.
/ Blaxthos 21:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Let me try to clarify a few key points for you:
It is my sincere hope that this experience will help you learn how to appropriately contribute and improve articles. / Blaxthos 02:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Once again, you avoid addressing my concern with the violation of WP:NPOV, and instead focus on the fact that I earlier objected to a violation of WP:WEASEL. I object to violations of WP:WEASEL because I feel that they are used to push a POV, and the WP:NPOV policy supports my view:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Cbuhl79 12:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
It is quite sufficient to say "many" if the sentence is immediately followed with (a) a reference which makes that same point about criticism or (b) several references to critics making the charge themselves. The only operative policy here is verifiability, and that satisfies it. Indeed, a long listing of critics by name would probably violate the undue weight provision. Derex 19:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, my main interest is in observing the spirit and the letter of
WP:NPOV, see:
“ | When asserting a fact about an opinion... It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Note also that the "undue weight" clause of WP:NPOV has absolutely nothing to do with "giving undue weight to any one particular critic". To the contrary, the "undue weight" clause explicitly suggests it:
“ | "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; | ” |
This is my only suggestion, that we change the introduction statement to name a prominent critic, as opposed to (or in addition to) merely citing a survey of journalists. I fail to see how there can be any objections under the WP:NPOV policy to changing the current introduction - "Fox News is seen by many critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions" to something like "Critics of Fox News such as <<Prominent Critic>> accuse Fox News of advocating conservative political positions." Originally I cited WP:WEASEL as my motivation for objection, other editors argued (not unreasonably) that it was a "guideline" and not a "policy". To satisfy that argument, I objected on the basis of the "policy" WP:NPOV. Objections to my proposed changes since then have centered around making exceptions as to why we shouldn't strictly adhere to WP:NPOV. I'm not at all opposed to someone exploring Wikipedia policy to find other arguments for why these exceptions should be made. Cbuhl79 23:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies... The principles upon which these three policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. | ” |
“ | ...and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. | ” |
Trebor,
I appreciate your willingness to assist in this situation, however I think it is important to note the following:
The way to end it? Simply stop responding. If you agree that it should end, then absolutely do not call for another vote to rehash dead issues -- all that does is stir the water more!
Admittedly, I had planned to stop responding after the last post, but then more people kept jumping in, seemingly without understanding the complete history involved. I think several points you made on my talk page actually were covered in previous public postings (regarding AGF, personal attacks (which you also claim occur, so I am asking for you to cite them if you still assert they have occured), past votes and consensus).
If you think Cbuhl is correct, then jump in the fray -- I think even with two or three more voices the consensus would not be overturned (though I strongly acknowledge WP:CCC) but this is just one big whinefest over sour grapes. If you do not think Cbuhl is correct, then I urge you to explain to him why he is wrong (as we've all tried) instead of coddling him by agreeing to another vote. I also suggest re-reading what happened to the one person who did decide to AGF and re-participate in the (invalid) second RfC. Might make you think twice about acquescing to the squeaky wheel.
Anyway, hope this didn't come off as too harsh. / Blaxthos 21:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Blockquotes are Trebor, responses are blaxthos -
I think cbuhl is still acting in good faith (based on the tone of his postings) and doesn't think the issue is as cut and dried as you do.
His tone shouldn't be how you evaluate his "good faith" -- actions speak louder than words.
the current intro came after discussion (not a vote) at the end of the last RfC which had began on a different topic.
Negative. The end goal is the same, even if the vehicle used is differet. Please read WP:POINT. Finding new ways to effect the same change is clearly discussed in several policies and guidelines.
it had been going on for 5 days already with little progress.
Indeed, there is no progress to be made. Consensus has been reached. Issue has been discussed to death. Current discussions are to try and help Cbuhl (and now you) understand why further discussion is moot.
I'd been following the discussion for several days without commenting and thought it was getting nowhere, so suggested a poll, with agreement in advance to adhere to the result, might break the deadlock. But then you jump on me as if I've done something wrong.
One individual who refuses to accept the community consensus is not a deadlock. Wikipedia would get nowhere if every change had to be met with complete agreement by all parties. To be honest, I do think it's wrong that you want to continue opening the issue for further vote, totally bypassing the endless work that we have done to (1) refine the article to meet with consensus views, and (2) explain to Cbuh79 why/how his view is out of line. That shows a complete disrespect to all of us who have used hundreds of kilobytes to try and help him understand why.
You shouldn't be afraid to defend your position,
Hey now, let's not violate WP:OR and WP:AGF with me -- my reasons aren't because I am "afraid to defend [my] position". My "defense" (improper wording) of "my" position is neither a defense, nor is it my position. The consensus was reached a while back by a number of editors (not asserted by me). The reasoning for such can be foudn in the endless volumes on the talk page. The "defense" (which should be described as "explaination") has been explained at least half a dozen times by like, five or six editors.
You should also note that this isn't the only place Cbuhl has been told he's wrong on this issue -- go read the talk pages for the policies and templates he's even trying to cite! How many people saying "that is incorrect" do you think we need before his continued objection should be viewed as invalid?
if you think there was already a vote (an actual poll) on the issue in question can you point me to it because I can't find it.
WP:CONSENSUS does not require an "actual poll" or vote -- in fact, in circumstances like this it is very much more productive to have a collaborative effort (which we did!) instead of "pick one." You should be able to read everyone's comments (from the last 2 weeks or however long it's been) and get a pretty clear indication that the only one supporting Cbuhl79's position is Cbuhl79.
Again, I think it's nothing but counterproductive for you to give validity to Cbuhl79's behavior. The precedent this sets is dangerous and not in the best interests of the project -- I liken it to a prison sentence that won't be imposed until all appeals are exhausted, and there is always an opportunity to repeatedly appeal. / Blaxthos 08:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Addendum - Thought these quotes, from WP:CONSENSUS would help Cbuhl and Trebor get some clarification:
The preferred way to deal with this problem is to draw the attention of other editors to the issue by some of the methods of dispute resolution, such as consulting a third party, filing a request for comment (on the article in question), and requesting mediation. Enlarging the pool will prevent the railroading of articles by a dedicated few. In the case of a small group of editors who find that their facts and point of view are being excluded by a larger group of editors, it is worth considering that they may be mistaken.
Precise numbers for "supermajority" are hard to establish, and Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy, so simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate.
Hope this helps! / Blaxthos 08:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have opened a request for arbitration here [24] regarding the wording of the sentence in the introduction about Fox News' bias. Since two of the editors involved have explicitly stated that they believe I am not acting good faith, I decided to seek arbitration on the matter. I notified the three editors who I know are strongly in disagreement with me, I also notified four other editors who have been involved since I opened the second RfC. I encourage any other interested parties to comment on the matter in the Arbitration Request. I have also closed (or am about to) the RfC that I opened. Cbuhl79 17:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The above Request for Arbitration was removed from the ArbCom request page on 28 October 2006, 05:02 (UTC) after being unanimously (0/4/0/0) rejected by the committee. The four votes were cast by ArbCom members Fred Bauder, Charles Matthews, Jayjg, and Matthew Brown (Morven). AuburnPilot Talk 05:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the problem I have: CNN has been accused of multiple biases for years on end, but there is not a single statement in the opening part of the article that it has been accused of any of them. We need to hold NPOV seriously, and not addressing a bias in the early potions of the CNN article (remember, CNN and Fox News are direct competitors) would be in violation of that if we include it in Fox News' article as well. Arguing that accusations against Fox News are in any way more notable than the accusations against CNN would not relate to a summary of the article in whole; if we are to include a criticism in one area of a similar article, we are expected to do it in another. I fail to see how it is notable at all, in either cases, to bring up allegations in the opening statements - and if we do it to one, we must do it to the other. -- Mrmiscellanious 03:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
When the items being discussed are clearly in violation of a site policy (WP:NPOV): the text, as it stands right now, reads: "Fox News is seen by some critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions". There is an eerily similar statement in WP:NPOV that prohibits this use in any Wikipedia article:
“ | There is a temptation to rephrase biased or opinion statements with weasel words: "Many people think John Doe is the best baseball player." But statements of this form are subject to obvious attacks: "Yes, many people think so, but only ignorant people"; and "Just how many is 'many'? I think it's only 'a few' who think that!" By attributing the claim to a known authority, or substantiating the facts behind it, you can avoid these problems. | ” |
As it stands now, the statement included in the opening sentences of Fox News violate the weasel words section of WP:NPOV (it is not just a recommendation). Failing to be specific on this violates WP:NPOV, as it is clearly shown above. -- Mrmiscellanious 04:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Source is not cited specifically as to the "fact" it represents from the source. If it is indeed in the source that it is stated, please provide more specifics as to where it is located so that others can verify its content. -- Mrmiscellanious 04:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons. | ” |
Mrmiscellanious seems to be a sockpuppet of Cbuhl79. I am going to report it to WP:SSP. That being said, the fact is the perception by some not the actual bias. Therefore it is properly cited (even though it need not be at all). Ramsquire (throw me a line) 19:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this isn't to make a point - and no, I have no intention of starting a revert war (I did make a point by the recent 3RR violation, as you can see in my edit comment, I even admitted I was breaking the policy). One reason why I am doing this is not because I think Fox News has a liberal or conservative bias (or none, for that matter) - the statement has its own section, and without going into specifics in the opening (something we want to avoid), we make it seem as if it is a consensus that Fox News is a conservative organization. We present disputed facts if they are found to be by consensus (and there is a dispute), but we do not present opinion if there is a consensus and a dispute is present - unless it is, of course, attributed and sourced correctly, which would in turn make it a fact. The statement, as it stands, still reads:
“ | Fox News is seen by some critics and observers as advocating conservative political positions. | ” |
Factual? Sure, but it is just as factual as a statement with the exact opposite content. It can be added, without any issue at all, that the statement came from the Project for Excellence in Journalism's 2006(?) report, and a more specific link would be added to make this statement undoubtedly factual. But I don't like seeing a statement with no attribution as extreme as this in an opening statement of an article that should not have as many NPOV discussions as this one has, and it's even more frustrating when there is not a more specific source cited in the footnote. The report is extremely large, and even adding a page number of the official report, or weblink to the section it is included, would make this a verifiable fact. I don't feel as if these are too hard of requests to make. -- Mrmiscellanious 00:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to spell out what I think the consensus is re-- the intro: "Since the perception of Foxnews having a conservative bias (whether the perception is accurate or not is irrelevant) is sufficiently widespread, to leave it out of the article would violate NPOV. This perception is also one of the factors that makes Foxnews notable, so it should be mentioned in the introduction. Also, since the perception (again not any actual bias just a perception) is so widely known to exist it need not be cited at all. Since the holders of this perception are too diverse and numerous to quantify, it is OK to use qualifiers like some or many to support the existence of the perception. However, to show that said perception is not being pulled out of thin air, there is a citation to a study showing the pervasiveness of the perception." To the editors who've already been through this, if I missed something please correct.
If someone wishes to reargue the intro, use the above as a reference point. We have no desire to keep arguing points that have already been made. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 21:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you guys think the storm has died down enough to archive the massively redundant and frustrating talk thus far? I don't think we should archive until all the dissonance has ended (due to the fact that it's necessary reference material for those who cry foul (though they don't seem to bother reading it)). I wonder what the lowest mean time to archive is... I'm sure this article would skew the results of that metric! /
Blaxthos
09:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Obviously not. / Blaxthos 18:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
(just to add a little more redundancy) i think the intro text can more closely follow the first sentence below(and cite its link), again from the State of the Media 2005 report -
Critics on the left and many in the mainstream dismiss or at least criticize Fox News as being one-sided. As the Atlanta Journal Constitution put it, “Detractors boil down Fox’s rise to a perceived pandering to a disaffected segment of society — read: white middle class — weary of U.S.-bashing here and abroad. They are eager to pin the scarlet letter C, for conservative, on the lapels of on-air personalities, beneath the tiny American flags that a few wear.”
— Cable TV section of the State of the Media 2005.
Doldrums 10:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, I agree with you (at least in part). I believe the "mainstream" wording is more appropriate, but also less likely to be agreed upon by some editors. The current wording is a compromise version. It is also my understanding that directly citing a source ("source joe says that..." / "critics such as frank say...") violates the undue influence constraint (especially when said criticism is too numerous and widespred to quantify). Personally, I don't think any reference should be given in the intro (undue influence) -- the fact that it is easily verifiable (by a number of methods) is all that I believe the policy requires. Anything more becomes undue weight. As I said, this was a compromise between many editors. Hope this helps! / Blaxthos 18:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Fox_News_Channel#Controversies_and_allegations_of_bias. There is an entire article devoted to the allegations of bias, yet this article can only find space for three measely sentences? I'm not even sure you can call that a "section", you can barely call it a "paragraph". I strongly think it should be expanded to a more representative proportion. Kevin Baas talk 18:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The con/crit section in this article is merely meant to say, essentially that there are controversies and criticisms in the first place. There's no reason to put extra stuff in theis section when it can be added to the actual controveries article. Edders 14:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does the Fox news channel insist on being dishonest and deceitful by claiming to be fair and balanced? I don't think Air America makes any such claims. 01001 17:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
When they claim they're "fair and balanced" it makes their job easier to lie to the uneducated people who watch the channel and make them believe every word they say. It's a fact. Fox News doesn't report on facts, because they have a liberal bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.221.37 ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 4 December 2006
I have a few issues with the addition of this this section to the article. I know the recent post election memo has received a lot of attention in the blogoshpere, but has this memo been authenticated by anyone? A quick search through google news using the search term "Fox News Internal Memo" only gives a cite to the Huffington blog. Also, the section makes this claim "There has been at least one documented case of Fox News fabricating information on-air to support the version of reality requested in an executive memo" without any evidentiary support by way of citation. It also makes the claim that "Within hours of the memo's publication, Fox News anchors were on-air with with unsubstantiated reports of "cheering" Iraqi insurgents" again without evidentiary support. The HuffingtonPost.com link attached only has the pdf of the memo, and comments by viewers of the site. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 01:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Jmayer The posted section on the leaked internal memo contains a citation reference to a photograph of the actual memo. If you like, you can add a claim such as "I personally beleive the memo to be a forgery," even though Fox News has never disavowed the authenticity of the leaked memo. However, deleting the entire section is censorship of cited factual information, and violates Wikipedia's neutral POV. In other words: you can't just delete factual relevant information you personally dislike, people.
Jmayer I propose: I will edit the relevant passage, and qualify the memo citation with information regarding it's source, and the difficulties of verifying the authenticity of the document. I will also indicate that Fox News has not disavowed the memo, and will update the section if and when Fox News does issue an official statement on this issue. Will that be sufficient to address your concerns?
Jmayer I would also like to add that the existence of this memo has been reported as news by outlets such as MSNBC. It's not just "some blog," and I will attempt to find additional citations.
I'm sure you all know the controversy over Foley and his perverted ways, but while reporting on it, Fox News actually changed his title from a republican to a democrat, I can't find a source but i saw it on best week ever(I Know not the most intelectual show) and they showed a clip from fox news, and there it was (D)Mick Foley, this should be added to the controversy section if someone finds a valid source.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.206.75 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 28 November 2006
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for me; the International transmission section is showing up in the references section for some reason? is this the article or just me? - -[ The Spooky One | [ t c r 02:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)