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I noticed this talk page had gotten more than twice as large as Wikipedia's suggested 32K limit, so I've created Talk:Fox_News_Channel/Archive_13 and moved most of the material to that page. I believe I left on this page everything that's had any activity in the last few days. If anyone has an objection to a section I moved, just say so and I'll put it back over here for further discussion. -- Aaron 20:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed:
From the beginning, Fox News has had a heavy emphasis on the visual presentation of news. Graphics were designed to be colorful and attention grabbing, and to allow people to get the main points of what was being said even if they couldn't hear the host, through the use of on-screen text summarizing the position of the interviewer or speaker, and "bullet points" when a host was giving commentary. The network differentiated commentary from interviews with a constant graphic reading "COMMENTARY" during features such as Bill O'Reilly's Talking Points Memo. Fox News also created the Fox News Alert, which interrupted regular programming when a breaking news story occured. Each News Alert was designed to be attention catching with a swooshing graphic filling the screen and a piercing chime instead of the regular news music. At the beginning of FNC, the Fox News Alert was used fairly rarely, giving the chime more cachet, but currently it is used regularly to announce scheduled events or repeat existing news instead of only breaking news stories, with Fox News Alerts sometimes several times each hour instead of just a few times a day. Fox News was also the first network to put up the American flag after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, a feature in the upper left hand corner that has persisted to this day.
It was put back in the article. The snide comment about what other networks do actually rings hollow because CNN and Headline News have for years been simulcast over radio. Compare the visual elements of, for instance, The O'Reilly Factor (talking points displayed on screen, video clips interspersed) with Larry King Live, which is basically a radio show transposed to television. Calwatch 00:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I take it Wikipedia isn't meant to only hold an American point of view. The biggest criticism of all regarding American news media lately has to do with the 'dumbing down' of news presentation and analysis...The entry should reflect some of that criticism. Also, the 'Fox Effect' and the "outfox fox news" ideas have yet to be presented here. I'm considering adding all that information. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amibidhrohi ( talk • contribs) 20:22, January 9, 2006.
There, I was bold for once. I moved the controversies section into its own article and left only the first paragraph here. Now those of us who want to not have it take up forever on the article can have that and those who want to have it here can have that too. Why wasn't this thought of before? The new article is at Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias — Ilyan e p (Talk) 18:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I like this step. Makes sense. I take it you'll be ok with me talking the same approach with the same section on the CNN page? Amibidhrohi 19:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The CNN controversy section could use expanding anyway. There's alot of information I picked up that I didn't add previously because of size constraints...well, that and also, because of some highly opinionated editors and admins here, it turns out that it's illegal for me to write such that less than 60% of the Controversy article suggests CNN is pro-Saddam and liberal-biased. Anyway, there's more I can add to the new article. The difference in content between the American CNN and CNN International, for instance. Most articles don't start off full-size, and we shouldn't expect that from this article within 10 mins of its existence. Amibidhrohi 20:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
For once Amib and I are in agreement. I like this step too. As for this: "because of some highly opinionated editors and admins here".....talk about the pot calling the kettle black, wow. Amib- I don't know where are you from, but in this country(United States), Fox News is generally considered the more conservative channel and CNN the more liberal channel. It is not suprising that any bias section would reflect this perception. RonMexico 14:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the article is fine as it is, and not victim of partisan bickering over how to document an apparently high number of controversies surrounding the network. Leave the prejudice aside and stop splitting hairs. Unless you're trying to prove FOX News is so biased as to necessitate a separate article to enumerate its eternal list of misdeeds, why in the world create an entirely different article dedicated to its controversies? That, in itself, seems particularly biased to me. I say leave the politics aside and keep the article as is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luis Hamburgh ( talk • contribs) 13:41, January 16, 2006.
Ilyanep, I admire your effort, but am compelled to question your wisdom. I believe you need to step away from the emotional investment of having created a new article, and look at this objectively.
I don't begrudge your emotional investment in your own handiwork, Ilyanep, nor do I fault others for having their own obstacles to objectivity. Obviously I recognize my own biases as well; there are philosophical reasons to favor the idea of removing the bias allegations from the page on Fox News, just as there are to keep the allegations in the main article. But those biases aside, it is my contention an objective observer would regard what you're doing as wholly unwarranted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.109.223.137 ( talk • contribs) .
(1) I meant no politics in the governmental sense. Whether I support conservatives or liberals doesn't matter here. Also, the reason I split this one was because it was taking up 1/2 the article (see my reply to #3)
(2) The bias section has been questioned very many times over the years. I could hardly call that 'fine'. Also, I never called you in particular a sock.
(3) Forks have been created in many cases. See George W. Bush for instance.
(4) Umm?
I don't mean to start any sort of wars (edit, flame, or otherwise) but I don't know if the wiser decision would be to keep the section in one article . — Ilyan e p (Talk) 22:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Forks, prongs, whatever. If my vote matters I say keep the thing intact. So strange to tune in, find half the bloody thing disapeared. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bone ( talk • contribs) 18:35, January 16, 2006.
Umm, I hate to break it to 68.109.223.137, but, in response to your #2 point... the reason that we all chimed in for support is that it's a really good idea. Need further assurances that we aren't sockpuppets? Here's all the accounts that have expressed support for the move according to Kate's tool:
We're most certainly NOT sockpuppets. The move is sound and good in all of our personal opinions, regardless of our varied locations on the political spectrum. While you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, I think it's important that you respect ours as well. This seems like a solid consensus to me. Matt Yeager 00:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As of the last edit before the fork, the page was 37K in length, above the 32K limit suggested in Wikipedia guidelines. That's all the justification for forking we need right there. But more importantly, this is an encyclopedia article, not a debate forum. The average person is going to come to this page seeking basic information on the channel, not a political screed. But for those who are interested in the allegations of bias against FNC, the newly-forked version will provide these people with even more data than they had before, since the now-separate page is certain to grow in length beyond what it would have if it remained a mere section of the main page. In short, those with an ax to grind against FNC should be happy with the forking. -- Aaron 01:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Precisely - which leaves me wondering why in the world you all would hope to leave the article on Fox News with such a dubious distinction. Like you say, what better way to show a news outfit is biased than to have its very own section on bias and prejudice? But note that Luis (above), another reader who said virtually the same thing, is opposed to your idea. I.e., you seem to be arguing against your own point here.
If you posit the anonymous posts all came from the same source then obviously all but one of the anonymous IPs were proxies. Obviously that person is at ...137 (aren't you?). Hence, the " on his talk page" reference is a total non-starter. Also, the article with debated material was 38K, 27K without it. Nine divided by 38 is 23 and some change. Meaning 23% of the older article was devoted to allegations of bias. That's a lot (though whoever called it 45% risked WikiCredibility in my book). Finally, if any of you seriously wanted to bring the article back down to an acceptable size without losing anything especially valuable, you could have removed all that extraneous New Zealand, U.K. and Brazil stuff at the bottom of the article. I think it's apparent everyone here is being motivated by personal politics.
HOWEVER...
Although I initially reverted, I've given it thought and have concluded the fork is the best solution. I tend to agree with the overall idea of splitting off into a new article.
It works for both political bents. Yes, I'm acknowledging everyone's bias here. If you're a Fox News "friend," you can rest easy the main article on Fox isn't 24% polluted with accusations of bias. And if you're a Fox news "fiend" you can now enrich an article strictly built to house accusations of bias (so long as the material is cited, obviously).
Count it now as seven. I've reverted back to the "consensus" version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keglined ( talk • contribs) .
I notice that there appears to be some personal attacks between users on here. Let me make this clear; personally attacking/insulting another user can get you blocked from Wikipedia. I am aware that this talk page is controversial, but that is not and never will be an excuse to insult people. Please be careful. And please remember, when you use a talk page, Sign Your Comments using 4 tildes (~). We need to keep track of who says what, and when! Thor Malmjursson 03:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Talk with Thor
One of the minor problems on this article is that information pretaining to some shows is very shallow to nearly nothing at all, if existant at all. One such example would include "On The Record", which does absolutely nothing but link right back to the FNC page, giving no real information about the show itself other than a short description here. In addition, no weekend programming is included in the programming block, leaving out some of FOX's signature weekends shows, such as Weekend Live w/ Tony Snow (SAT) & Brian Wilson (SUN), The Big Story Weekend, The Beltway Boys, FOX News Watch, Heartland, War Stories w/ Oliver North, The LineUp, & Big Story Primetime (all of the Big Stories could probabily be added to the original big story article). Overall, a gap which should be filled
Chris 03:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I added the short little sentence clip below the standard weekday schedule for the moment with most of the weekend shows on their (if I forgot any, feel free to add). Anyway, the pages should start appearing over the following days with their quality improving over time.
Chris 07:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Who's enforcing NPOV on this article? I dislike FOX news as much as the next guy, but this article reads as slanted as a table with 3 legs/
Ilyanep, please consider this an official request to semiprotect the page. -- Aaron 18:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that a significant aspect of the POV issue is masking of Fox News's reputation for holding bias. There is no mention of controversy in the introduction (which tells us nothing about the station, only boasts its popularity), and the Controversies and allegations of bias section is limited to three sentences that present the extent of the controversy as not meeting the standards held by their slogans:
Although there may be a larger article dedicated to this issue (which I think does a poor job by merely presenting individual points of evidence and not a complete picture), it still should be expounded upon further here. Let's at least present enough of a story that someone who hears a media personality making fun of FOX News can get the joke. Shaggorama 07:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Translation from FOXese to English, how exactly is conservative POV? Does FOX even make efforts to make their politcal stance ambiguous? NO, so why is being removed?-- 64.12.116.133 18:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
If you had a bad relationship with your father as a child, then you probably shouldn't contribute to this article because you most likely hate entities with authority such as the Fox News network, the government, and rich people. If you don't agree with me, check your contribution history then try and convince me you aren't bitter. Oh, and by "you" I mean everyone here. Haizum 13:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel that this is clearly small and fairly innocuous, due to the existence of the seperate article. However, I also think that it really ought to mention that the channel has had so much more allegations than others. This is not an attempt to discuss the accuracy of the allegations, but to emphasise their frequency. Thoughts as to how this cold be done? Robdurbar 16:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In many respects, FNC has been a network which has been critised as being more biased compared to many of it's different competitors. For that relative fact, the point that the introduction of the article doesn't include any sort of inclusion of this relative fact seems almost of a POV. Personally, I am extremely against the whole addition of a "conservative" remark in the very introduction in that is not the point the article needs to make, the article needs to make a point about it's alleged bias.
Does anyone have any good ideas on how we could format this information into the introduction with it smoothly fitting in and not actually being a full bombardment? (Also, I will admit I watch the network daily) Chris 09:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The criticism of Fox news is that it is a propaganda arm of the GOP. That is a very widely circulated and held criticism that virtually everyone on the left considers to be fact. The failure to mention this criticism in the article and the refusal to even provide a summary of the criticism that has been eliminated from this article makes it POV. It also appears to be EBMF - Edited by marketing flacks. This highlights a problem with Wikipedia, Fox News are certainly going to have a greater determination to keep criticism out of this article than neutral editors are to ensure it remains in. -- Gorgonzilla 19:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Cite sources! Avoid blogs!
For example, I remember a news story about Rupert Murdoch sending a memo dictating what reporters at Fox should report. Find a news story in a major newspaper about that memo. Quote the story and list the source.
I remember a report that people who watch Fox news are less informed than people who get their news from other sources. Find a news story in a major newspaper about that report. Quote the story and list the source.
In short, do your homework. It is lazy and sloppy writing to say, "Somebody says..." or "Many people say..." or "People believe..."
The truth is out there!
Rick Norwood 23:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole second article giving chapter and verse. I note that the Fox rebuttals are not cited either. -- Gorgonzilla 00:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Why are there so many to begin with? (and why add more?) Mhking 02:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Because so many people are anti-fox, and they come to wikipedia looking for anti-fox links. As to why so many people are anti-fox, you would do well to follow the links to find out why.
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Mhking 03:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
But Fox News is most certainly a soapbox, and as such, it should be the subject of open discussion, and yes, even parody. Why is your skin so thin that you felt it your duty to delete the link to SimFaux, but you didn't delete any of the other anti-fox links? Where do you draw the line?
You're the one who brought up the question "Why are there so many to begin with?" So instead of deleting ALL the anti-fox links, let's finish the discussion you started, before arbitrarily deciding to delete one link but not the others. I have already answered your question "Why add more."
Why is it OK to discuss Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right", but not SimFaux?
Stop deleting the link without any comments, and please explain here why you want to delete one particular link, but not any of the others, or (as one example of many instances) any of the discussion about "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right", which is Al Franken's soapbox.
What is the bar for making reference to parodies of Fox News on Wikipedia? Does SimFaux have to be sued by Fox News and win in order to qualify, like "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right"? Xardox 15:39, March 20, 2006
This probably doesn't belong in this section, but searching "Faux News" will redirect you to "Fox News". While funny, this is a prank and should be corrected. - Luke.
Why shoul this be corrected I can't see the problem
Adamcobb 10:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
What does highly-rated mean - that the channel has large numbers of people watching or that it is generally considered to be a quality source of news coverage? TreveX talk 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It really scares me that people would be editing a page about a television network and have such little knowledge about the subject. Television stations are rated. That is a fact. The company is called Nielsen [4] and every advertiser who buys ads on a television network goes by Nielsen Media Research's ratings. You may love Fox, you may hate Fox, but there is no disputing that they are far and away the highest rated cable news network. [5] [6] [7] [8] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.137.22 ( talk • contribs) 23:30, July 31, 2006 (UTC)
I propose we put this article up for AfD. It's never going to amount to anything, and it's just a playground for political POV. — Ilyan e p (Talk) 02:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
It really scares me that people would be editing a page about a television network and have such little knowledge about the subject. Television stations are rated. That is a fact. The company is called Nielsen [9] and every advertiser who buys ads on a television network goes by Nielsen Media Research's ratings. You may love Fox, you may hate Fox, but there is no disputing that they are far and away the highest rated cable news network. [10] [11] [12] [13] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.137.22 ( talk • contribs) 23:30, July 31, 2006 (UTC)
In the section on the Fox News Website, someone claimed that Fox News occasionally provide a linked to the GOP's main website, though no references for such a claim where provided. Someone else added the claim they also have linked to the Democratic Party's main website, again no references provided. As such I have moved the following to the talk page until proof of either or both party having had links to them on the FN website.
Also, I think that unless one party's website link is favored over another by the FN website then it really isn't that noteworthy. -- Cab88 01:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Some examples of leaders Fox News have criticized recently
I was just wondering seeing that if Iran is creating controversy about their nuclear program, and Fox News labeled, Prsident Ahmadinejad as a threat to America, is that country prohibited from using Fox News? LILVOKA 03:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Ailes, often agitated and verbally abusive..." Have we got any sources for this, or are we just adding bits like this as cheap shots? Perrymason 23:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Amibidhrohi, but I feel that I have to revert your change. There was a study cited in this article, and this was a study led by a full professor of Political Science at UCLA (see his CV here). If there is anyone on this planet qualified to have findings on this subject, this is the guy. Moreover, I looked at the study and it looks reasonable, and in any case, the conclusions are what are claimed in this article. It is much more appropriate to say that "Groseclose found Fox was most centrist" as opposed to "Groseclose claimed Fox was most centrist"; this guy is the epitome of an expert on the subject, and his conclusions were pretty strongly stated in the study. To call the findings of an expert a claim is POV. -- Deville ( Talk) 00:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I was just reading this article and came across the ‘Rebuttal of Bias’ section and read the supporting research provided by Tim Groseclose. The section currently states, "Groseclose found that Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume had an Americans for Democratic Action rating that was closest to the political center, and concluded that Special Report was the most centrist news program on television." However, in the cited source, Groseclose clearly states "The first, second, and third most centrist outlets are respectively Newshour with Jim Lehrer, CNN’s Newsnight with Aaron Brown, and ABC’s Good Morning America." Brit's broadcast is listed as fifth most centrist (all on page 33). These results are also echoed in his "TABLE IV Rankings Based on Distance from Center" on page 58. His research makes no mention that supports the statement currently in the article so we should concede to a change in this statement. The closest the research comes to this statement (that I could find) is his sentence about “adjusted Americans for Democratic Action (ADA). It states that ‘[a]ll of the news outlets except Fox News’ Special Report and the Washington Times received a score to the left of the average member of Congress (page 2). If you read his research, then this is clearly not his conclusion. Also, this ‘Rebuttal of Bias’ section uses Groseclose's research to 'prove' a point, but then immediately attempts to discredit the basis of his research. I think we should revise or remove this conflicting section because it contradicts itself. Anyone agree/disagree? -- Adam Clark (User_Talk) (email) 19:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Back to the Groseclose study. I removed the following recently-added sentence:
At the very least, this sentence is OR, since it requires an a priori assumption on the part of the writer that these two publications are themselves conservative, for which I have seen no citations. Moreover, what does "openly conservative" mean in the first place?-- Deville ( Talk) 23:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone object to removing the term 'subscriber' at the start of the article as it gives the impression that 85 million people in the US specifically request to subscribe to fox news when this is not the case. Maybe that it is accessible to 85 million people would be a fair compromise.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Liam1234 ( talk • contribs) 20:25, May 6, 2006
Gorgonzilla, you are clearly biased. I have a hard time believing you're trying to be objective, whatsoever. First, you cite a blog entry to refute an academic study. Fine. Then a rebuttal to that exact blog entry by Stanford and UCLA professors appears, and you remove it. Why is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.60.51 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, May 7, 2006
Gorgonzilla, your deletion of the Groseclose study without consensus is unacceptable. Just because you believe it "does not merit" this attention does not make it so. I will place the Groseclose language back in. Calwatch 04:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't delete the study, merely the re-rebuttal which if it were admitted would require a re-re-rebuttal to also be admitted if anyone thought it was worth it. At this point I think that the paragraph pretty much demonstrates the bizare lengths people go to in order to cling to the peculiar idea that Fox has no right wing bias. The only way that is possible is to define the political center as being somewhere between the right wing of the Republican party and the extreme right. -- Gorgonzilla 06:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Murcdoch owns the London Times and the Sun. The circulation of the Sun is many times that of the London Times but nobody would ever describe the Sun as the Leading UK newspaper except a Sun journalist. The Telegraph has a larger circulation than the Guardian, Times and Independent, yet anyone following the UK political scene knows that those three (plus the Economist) are the leading UK newspapers. The term leading means that there are followers. The only follower of Fox is Air America. So the use of the definite article in the introduction is subjective not objective. -- Gorgonzilla 16:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The following text, which I just removed from the entry, was in the section on ratings:
In the Introduction written in 2004 to the new edition of her 2002 book, New Nuclear Danger (publisher: New Press), the Nobel Prize nominee and author Dr. Helen Caldicot claims on page xvi of that 2004 Introduction that Rupert Murdoch, owner of FOX News, has in the past helped with "[p]reprations for the second U.S. Iraq invasion (the first invasion had taken place in 1991) [which] were started in 1992 by a small group of 'defense intellectuals'... [who] began to publish a series of letters in The Weekly Standard [also owned by Murdoch] calling for another U.S. invation of Iraq, as well as advocating support of Israel's campaign against the Palestinians and warning about the rising power of China."
I'm not sure this should even be in the article at all, but it certainly shouldn't be in the section on ratings as it has nothing to do with them. Suggestions? Lawyer2b 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
So it occurs to me that as of now, given the recent deletions, the section entitled "Controversies and allegations of bias" now has exactly zero sources in it. And, frankly, most of what is in this section is more polemic than statement, and it seems unlikely that much of this content would stay once we had the section NPOV. What should we do here? I'm sort of tempted to remove this section entirely and start over, but I wanted to hear other thoughts on this. -- Deville ( Talk) 03:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
It's called bowdlerizing; creating a POV fork to dodge WP:NPOV. I've restored a reasonable summary per WP:POVFORK. FeloniousMonk 05:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There's right now a mention in the "Controversies" section of that infamous PIPA study that supposedly proved that Fox News viewers are less informed than the general public. The obvious flaw in the study is that it only asked questions whose correct answer is more favorable to those with an anti-war or anti-Bush position. I put in a sentence after the cite noting that some have made that accusation of the study, with a link to this blog post. That sentence was removed because, apparently, it's against Wikipedia policy to cite blogs. I think this policy is clearly phrased to refer to citing blogs as sources of information, not of commentary, though - after all, if the commentary holds up, what does it matter who's making it? And of course there are blog opinions cited in many other spots in Wikipedia. But what do other people think? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the point about the study's flaws made in any mainstream media sources. Surely, there should be some way of noting this obvious rebuttal to the study. Korny O'Near 17:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
to blog site "Fox and Friends". Per Wiki policies, links to blogs and fan forums are not considered appropriate external links. Jeff Berg
Okay, instead of this silly revert war, can we hash out what belongs in this section and what doesn't? It appears to me that the tendency has been to use this section to launch attacks against Fox News in a non-neutral way. I'd say the FAIR analysis is fine, for instance, because it's a respected organization and it's their opinion. But the PIPA poll strikes me as out of bounds for three reasons: (a) there are problems with the study which some people (ahem) refuse to allow to be mentioned, (b) it's presented as some kind of fact instead of an opinion, and (c) maybe most importantly, it's neither a controversy nor an allegation of bias. The only thing the study judges is the viewers of Fox News, which of course the channel has no control over. But that's my 2 cents, what do other people belongs in this section? Korny O'Near 22:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The section should be a summary, that's it. A quick summary such as "The network has recieved criticism, and has been accused of bias in its reporting. For more detail, see Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias." In addition, these following "see also" links should be removed: Propaganda model, Conservative bias. Reason being: (a) "Propaganda model" is an implication that the network is used for propaganda. (b) "Conservative bias"? That's another implication that this article is used to show an unfavorable view of the network. The wording and examples in the current revision are simply not under compliance of WP:NPOV. -- Mrmiscellanious 23:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I moved the Rasmussen poll to the other article. -- Deville ( Talk) 02:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe some of you should take a look at an example of a section and its subarticle for reference. It's pretty clear to everyone that there's a group of people here that are just trying to remove legitimate and relevant information from the main article simply because they dislike it, regardless of what actual the Wikipedia guidelines are. - 85.210.45.253 02:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Earlier this month, the "This article may need to be cleaned up" tag appeared to be added but the reason exactly is not completely known or at least I am not sure what exactly the problem with the article is at this point. For whoever added this tag, what sections do you believe need to be cleaned up other than the controversies section? Was it put up due to the inflating size? | Chris 21:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Right now, in the new paragraph, three of the four "critics" listed as claiming Fox News is biased are comedians. I'll give Franken a pass, since he's now become a semi-serious commentator, but I don't think Stewart and Colbert belong here. They may play newscasters on their respective shows, but they're comedians; their training is in comedy.
(And interestingly, the fourth person cited, Chris Matthews, though a serious commentator, himself used to work for Democrats Jimmy Carter and Tip O'Neil - somewhat undercutting the point of the paragraph).
Also, all claims made in a section as contentious as this one should be cited. Korny O'Near 13:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
"A poll conducted by Rasmussen Reports during October, 2004 found that the public perceived Fox news as the second most politically biased news network, with 34% respondents saying they believed that Fox's goal was to "help elect Bush", leaving Fox second only to CBS, which was perceived by 37% as being biased in the wake of the memogate scandal.[1]"
so basically this is saying FNC is not the most biased, CBS is. Im pretty sure this section may as well be removed.
The whole Controversies and allegations of bias section is a mess really.
Put it all on its own page, this bit only needs to be a brief summary of complaints
Ted Turner is the CEO of a Fox competitor, who has recently been losing market share to Fox. It is expected and totaly non-notable that he would have nothing good to say about his rival. The forum in which such comments are made is irrelevant. Unlike the other criticisms in this section, which are based either on the results of public opinion polls or are from notable media critics, Turner's comments are not based on any sourced facts - they are the opinions of a compatitor. As such, they are not notable. Isarig 23:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It was justified and Turner is not a competitor, he sold CNN decades ago and no longer has a board seat in TimeWarner. Badmouthing by a competitor is in any case notable when the competitor is notable. Turner is not a noted expert in astronomy he is considerably more expert and notable in the news business than Isarig. -- Gorgonzilla 01:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
NPOV??? "All significant points of view are presented"?? Debate??? Every word of this now seven paragraph section presents the same side of the argument. There is nothing in this section that refutes any of it. I don't understand why there is a sub-article at all if certain editors keep adding more one-sided bulk to this section. It is presented as if it is an irrefutable fact that FNC is biased and slanted. -- rogerd 02:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The difference between Fox News and CNN is that for most people who don't watch it the single defining feature of Fox is that it is a tabloid propaganda outlet rather than a news station. Plenty of people have problems with Time Warner and CNN, the Cyberporn story was yellow journalism at its worst. But very few people claim that CNN is first and foremost a propaganda outfit. That is pretty much the consensus view in the US media though and 35% of the population agree with that assement. -- Gorgonzilla 20:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me (as a non-American) as very odd that Fox News is a disambiguation page, when most international users would expect it to be the channel.
Surely a link to Fox News Sunday could be effected at the top of the article, rather than having a separate page.
Almost all the links to Fox News are expecting the page for the channel. It seems like a sloppy move. — OwenBlacker 13:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to ditto Lord Voldemort's comments above about "sloppy linkage". These should be cleaned up to go to the destination, and "Fox News" should redirected back to the disambig. page, while "Fox News Channel" remains here. -- Mrmiscellanious 17:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The following is the transcript of Fox news interviewing Scott Ritter about WMDs in Iraq before the invasion.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62916,00.html
The following is another interview on the same subject with William Pitt.
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twr147e.htm __________________________________________
Why was the above deleted? 01001 04:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It belongs on the allegations of bias page. Squiggyfm 22:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/ip/foxpenguin80703cmp.pdf http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2002/Nov/26.html http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/51534p-48314c.html http://poynter.org/forum/?id=thememo http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/10/31/fox/index_np.html http://www.poynter.org/forum/default.asp?id=letters http://www.odwyerpr.com/members/index_media_notes.htm http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16892 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27061-2003Oct14.html http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1998Q2/foxbgh.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/fox-main.html http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,1073216,00.html http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/22/fox.franken/ http://www.nynewsday.com/nyc-fran0823,0,1365110.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left http://villagevoice.com/blogs/pressclipsextra/archives/2005/02/index.php http://stateofthemedia.com/2005/index.asp http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000837511 http://www.prweek.com/news/news_worldwire.cfm?ID=238636 http://www.prweek.com/news/news_story.cfm?ID=240207&site=3 http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/03/fox/index_np.html http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/cl-et-david12nov12,0,1163112.story
I mean really, sure I respect what this channel has done, but c'mon now, with ALL it's controversies, we HAVE to include it in the opening paragraph. Let me also just say that if you keep this biased opening for your article, u WON'T have it a featured one, since a featured article has to be DOWN THE MIDDLE from beg to end. :) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.99.161 ( talk • contribs)
In a 2006 poll conducted by Reuters and the BBC, 11 percent of Americans named Fox News as the most trusted news source, which is more than any other source in the U.S. including ABC (4 percent), NBC (4 percent) and CBS (3 percent). [1]
How is the above not biased and below is biased?
Close to 3 million people tune in to The NewsHour each weeknight (1.1 HH rating) and more than 8 million unduplicated viewers watch at least one night a week. In addition, the Erdos & Morgan Opinion Leader survey ranks The NewsHour first among all television news programs as the most credible, most objective, most influential and most current news program on television.
Does that mean 85 million households are currently subscribed to a cable TV or satellite package that includes Fox News, or 85 million households could subscribe to a package that includes Fox News, if they wanted to? If the latter interpretation is correct, it would be interesting to know how many households actually have it; this could maybe mentioned in the Rating section. AxelBoldt ( talk) 01:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
I noticed this talk page had gotten more than twice as large as Wikipedia's suggested 32K limit, so I've created Talk:Fox_News_Channel/Archive_13 and moved most of the material to that page. I believe I left on this page everything that's had any activity in the last few days. If anyone has an objection to a section I moved, just say so and I'll put it back over here for further discussion. -- Aaron 20:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed:
From the beginning, Fox News has had a heavy emphasis on the visual presentation of news. Graphics were designed to be colorful and attention grabbing, and to allow people to get the main points of what was being said even if they couldn't hear the host, through the use of on-screen text summarizing the position of the interviewer or speaker, and "bullet points" when a host was giving commentary. The network differentiated commentary from interviews with a constant graphic reading "COMMENTARY" during features such as Bill O'Reilly's Talking Points Memo. Fox News also created the Fox News Alert, which interrupted regular programming when a breaking news story occured. Each News Alert was designed to be attention catching with a swooshing graphic filling the screen and a piercing chime instead of the regular news music. At the beginning of FNC, the Fox News Alert was used fairly rarely, giving the chime more cachet, but currently it is used regularly to announce scheduled events or repeat existing news instead of only breaking news stories, with Fox News Alerts sometimes several times each hour instead of just a few times a day. Fox News was also the first network to put up the American flag after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, a feature in the upper left hand corner that has persisted to this day.
It was put back in the article. The snide comment about what other networks do actually rings hollow because CNN and Headline News have for years been simulcast over radio. Compare the visual elements of, for instance, The O'Reilly Factor (talking points displayed on screen, video clips interspersed) with Larry King Live, which is basically a radio show transposed to television. Calwatch 00:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I take it Wikipedia isn't meant to only hold an American point of view. The biggest criticism of all regarding American news media lately has to do with the 'dumbing down' of news presentation and analysis...The entry should reflect some of that criticism. Also, the 'Fox Effect' and the "outfox fox news" ideas have yet to be presented here. I'm considering adding all that information. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amibidhrohi ( talk • contribs) 20:22, January 9, 2006.
There, I was bold for once. I moved the controversies section into its own article and left only the first paragraph here. Now those of us who want to not have it take up forever on the article can have that and those who want to have it here can have that too. Why wasn't this thought of before? The new article is at Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias — Ilyan e p (Talk) 18:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I like this step. Makes sense. I take it you'll be ok with me talking the same approach with the same section on the CNN page? Amibidhrohi 19:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The CNN controversy section could use expanding anyway. There's alot of information I picked up that I didn't add previously because of size constraints...well, that and also, because of some highly opinionated editors and admins here, it turns out that it's illegal for me to write such that less than 60% of the Controversy article suggests CNN is pro-Saddam and liberal-biased. Anyway, there's more I can add to the new article. The difference in content between the American CNN and CNN International, for instance. Most articles don't start off full-size, and we shouldn't expect that from this article within 10 mins of its existence. Amibidhrohi 20:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
For once Amib and I are in agreement. I like this step too. As for this: "because of some highly opinionated editors and admins here".....talk about the pot calling the kettle black, wow. Amib- I don't know where are you from, but in this country(United States), Fox News is generally considered the more conservative channel and CNN the more liberal channel. It is not suprising that any bias section would reflect this perception. RonMexico 14:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the article is fine as it is, and not victim of partisan bickering over how to document an apparently high number of controversies surrounding the network. Leave the prejudice aside and stop splitting hairs. Unless you're trying to prove FOX News is so biased as to necessitate a separate article to enumerate its eternal list of misdeeds, why in the world create an entirely different article dedicated to its controversies? That, in itself, seems particularly biased to me. I say leave the politics aside and keep the article as is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luis Hamburgh ( talk • contribs) 13:41, January 16, 2006.
Ilyanep, I admire your effort, but am compelled to question your wisdom. I believe you need to step away from the emotional investment of having created a new article, and look at this objectively.
I don't begrudge your emotional investment in your own handiwork, Ilyanep, nor do I fault others for having their own obstacles to objectivity. Obviously I recognize my own biases as well; there are philosophical reasons to favor the idea of removing the bias allegations from the page on Fox News, just as there are to keep the allegations in the main article. But those biases aside, it is my contention an objective observer would regard what you're doing as wholly unwarranted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.109.223.137 ( talk • contribs) .
(1) I meant no politics in the governmental sense. Whether I support conservatives or liberals doesn't matter here. Also, the reason I split this one was because it was taking up 1/2 the article (see my reply to #3)
(2) The bias section has been questioned very many times over the years. I could hardly call that 'fine'. Also, I never called you in particular a sock.
(3) Forks have been created in many cases. See George W. Bush for instance.
(4) Umm?
I don't mean to start any sort of wars (edit, flame, or otherwise) but I don't know if the wiser decision would be to keep the section in one article . — Ilyan e p (Talk) 22:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Forks, prongs, whatever. If my vote matters I say keep the thing intact. So strange to tune in, find half the bloody thing disapeared. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bone ( talk • contribs) 18:35, January 16, 2006.
Umm, I hate to break it to 68.109.223.137, but, in response to your #2 point... the reason that we all chimed in for support is that it's a really good idea. Need further assurances that we aren't sockpuppets? Here's all the accounts that have expressed support for the move according to Kate's tool:
We're most certainly NOT sockpuppets. The move is sound and good in all of our personal opinions, regardless of our varied locations on the political spectrum. While you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, I think it's important that you respect ours as well. This seems like a solid consensus to me. Matt Yeager 00:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As of the last edit before the fork, the page was 37K in length, above the 32K limit suggested in Wikipedia guidelines. That's all the justification for forking we need right there. But more importantly, this is an encyclopedia article, not a debate forum. The average person is going to come to this page seeking basic information on the channel, not a political screed. But for those who are interested in the allegations of bias against FNC, the newly-forked version will provide these people with even more data than they had before, since the now-separate page is certain to grow in length beyond what it would have if it remained a mere section of the main page. In short, those with an ax to grind against FNC should be happy with the forking. -- Aaron 01:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Precisely - which leaves me wondering why in the world you all would hope to leave the article on Fox News with such a dubious distinction. Like you say, what better way to show a news outfit is biased than to have its very own section on bias and prejudice? But note that Luis (above), another reader who said virtually the same thing, is opposed to your idea. I.e., you seem to be arguing against your own point here.
If you posit the anonymous posts all came from the same source then obviously all but one of the anonymous IPs were proxies. Obviously that person is at ...137 (aren't you?). Hence, the " on his talk page" reference is a total non-starter. Also, the article with debated material was 38K, 27K without it. Nine divided by 38 is 23 and some change. Meaning 23% of the older article was devoted to allegations of bias. That's a lot (though whoever called it 45% risked WikiCredibility in my book). Finally, if any of you seriously wanted to bring the article back down to an acceptable size without losing anything especially valuable, you could have removed all that extraneous New Zealand, U.K. and Brazil stuff at the bottom of the article. I think it's apparent everyone here is being motivated by personal politics.
HOWEVER...
Although I initially reverted, I've given it thought and have concluded the fork is the best solution. I tend to agree with the overall idea of splitting off into a new article.
It works for both political bents. Yes, I'm acknowledging everyone's bias here. If you're a Fox News "friend," you can rest easy the main article on Fox isn't 24% polluted with accusations of bias. And if you're a Fox news "fiend" you can now enrich an article strictly built to house accusations of bias (so long as the material is cited, obviously).
Count it now as seven. I've reverted back to the "consensus" version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keglined ( talk • contribs) .
I notice that there appears to be some personal attacks between users on here. Let me make this clear; personally attacking/insulting another user can get you blocked from Wikipedia. I am aware that this talk page is controversial, but that is not and never will be an excuse to insult people. Please be careful. And please remember, when you use a talk page, Sign Your Comments using 4 tildes (~). We need to keep track of who says what, and when! Thor Malmjursson 03:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Talk with Thor
One of the minor problems on this article is that information pretaining to some shows is very shallow to nearly nothing at all, if existant at all. One such example would include "On The Record", which does absolutely nothing but link right back to the FNC page, giving no real information about the show itself other than a short description here. In addition, no weekend programming is included in the programming block, leaving out some of FOX's signature weekends shows, such as Weekend Live w/ Tony Snow (SAT) & Brian Wilson (SUN), The Big Story Weekend, The Beltway Boys, FOX News Watch, Heartland, War Stories w/ Oliver North, The LineUp, & Big Story Primetime (all of the Big Stories could probabily be added to the original big story article). Overall, a gap which should be filled
Chris 03:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I added the short little sentence clip below the standard weekday schedule for the moment with most of the weekend shows on their (if I forgot any, feel free to add). Anyway, the pages should start appearing over the following days with their quality improving over time.
Chris 07:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Who's enforcing NPOV on this article? I dislike FOX news as much as the next guy, but this article reads as slanted as a table with 3 legs/
Ilyanep, please consider this an official request to semiprotect the page. -- Aaron 18:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that a significant aspect of the POV issue is masking of Fox News's reputation for holding bias. There is no mention of controversy in the introduction (which tells us nothing about the station, only boasts its popularity), and the Controversies and allegations of bias section is limited to three sentences that present the extent of the controversy as not meeting the standards held by their slogans:
Although there may be a larger article dedicated to this issue (which I think does a poor job by merely presenting individual points of evidence and not a complete picture), it still should be expounded upon further here. Let's at least present enough of a story that someone who hears a media personality making fun of FOX News can get the joke. Shaggorama 07:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Translation from FOXese to English, how exactly is conservative POV? Does FOX even make efforts to make their politcal stance ambiguous? NO, so why is being removed?-- 64.12.116.133 18:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
If you had a bad relationship with your father as a child, then you probably shouldn't contribute to this article because you most likely hate entities with authority such as the Fox News network, the government, and rich people. If you don't agree with me, check your contribution history then try and convince me you aren't bitter. Oh, and by "you" I mean everyone here. Haizum 13:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel that this is clearly small and fairly innocuous, due to the existence of the seperate article. However, I also think that it really ought to mention that the channel has had so much more allegations than others. This is not an attempt to discuss the accuracy of the allegations, but to emphasise their frequency. Thoughts as to how this cold be done? Robdurbar 16:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In many respects, FNC has been a network which has been critised as being more biased compared to many of it's different competitors. For that relative fact, the point that the introduction of the article doesn't include any sort of inclusion of this relative fact seems almost of a POV. Personally, I am extremely against the whole addition of a "conservative" remark in the very introduction in that is not the point the article needs to make, the article needs to make a point about it's alleged bias.
Does anyone have any good ideas on how we could format this information into the introduction with it smoothly fitting in and not actually being a full bombardment? (Also, I will admit I watch the network daily) Chris 09:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The criticism of Fox news is that it is a propaganda arm of the GOP. That is a very widely circulated and held criticism that virtually everyone on the left considers to be fact. The failure to mention this criticism in the article and the refusal to even provide a summary of the criticism that has been eliminated from this article makes it POV. It also appears to be EBMF - Edited by marketing flacks. This highlights a problem with Wikipedia, Fox News are certainly going to have a greater determination to keep criticism out of this article than neutral editors are to ensure it remains in. -- Gorgonzilla 19:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Cite sources! Avoid blogs!
For example, I remember a news story about Rupert Murdoch sending a memo dictating what reporters at Fox should report. Find a news story in a major newspaper about that memo. Quote the story and list the source.
I remember a report that people who watch Fox news are less informed than people who get their news from other sources. Find a news story in a major newspaper about that report. Quote the story and list the source.
In short, do your homework. It is lazy and sloppy writing to say, "Somebody says..." or "Many people say..." or "People believe..."
The truth is out there!
Rick Norwood 23:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole second article giving chapter and verse. I note that the Fox rebuttals are not cited either. -- Gorgonzilla 00:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Why are there so many to begin with? (and why add more?) Mhking 02:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Because so many people are anti-fox, and they come to wikipedia looking for anti-fox links. As to why so many people are anti-fox, you would do well to follow the links to find out why.
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Mhking 03:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
But Fox News is most certainly a soapbox, and as such, it should be the subject of open discussion, and yes, even parody. Why is your skin so thin that you felt it your duty to delete the link to SimFaux, but you didn't delete any of the other anti-fox links? Where do you draw the line?
You're the one who brought up the question "Why are there so many to begin with?" So instead of deleting ALL the anti-fox links, let's finish the discussion you started, before arbitrarily deciding to delete one link but not the others. I have already answered your question "Why add more."
Why is it OK to discuss Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right", but not SimFaux?
Stop deleting the link without any comments, and please explain here why you want to delete one particular link, but not any of the others, or (as one example of many instances) any of the discussion about "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right", which is Al Franken's soapbox.
What is the bar for making reference to parodies of Fox News on Wikipedia? Does SimFaux have to be sued by Fox News and win in order to qualify, like "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right"? Xardox 15:39, March 20, 2006
This probably doesn't belong in this section, but searching "Faux News" will redirect you to "Fox News". While funny, this is a prank and should be corrected. - Luke.
Why shoul this be corrected I can't see the problem
Adamcobb 10:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
What does highly-rated mean - that the channel has large numbers of people watching or that it is generally considered to be a quality source of news coverage? TreveX talk 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It really scares me that people would be editing a page about a television network and have such little knowledge about the subject. Television stations are rated. That is a fact. The company is called Nielsen [4] and every advertiser who buys ads on a television network goes by Nielsen Media Research's ratings. You may love Fox, you may hate Fox, but there is no disputing that they are far and away the highest rated cable news network. [5] [6] [7] [8] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.137.22 ( talk • contribs) 23:30, July 31, 2006 (UTC)
I propose we put this article up for AfD. It's never going to amount to anything, and it's just a playground for political POV. — Ilyan e p (Talk) 02:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
It really scares me that people would be editing a page about a television network and have such little knowledge about the subject. Television stations are rated. That is a fact. The company is called Nielsen [9] and every advertiser who buys ads on a television network goes by Nielsen Media Research's ratings. You may love Fox, you may hate Fox, but there is no disputing that they are far and away the highest rated cable news network. [10] [11] [12] [13] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.137.22 ( talk • contribs) 23:30, July 31, 2006 (UTC)
In the section on the Fox News Website, someone claimed that Fox News occasionally provide a linked to the GOP's main website, though no references for such a claim where provided. Someone else added the claim they also have linked to the Democratic Party's main website, again no references provided. As such I have moved the following to the talk page until proof of either or both party having had links to them on the FN website.
Also, I think that unless one party's website link is favored over another by the FN website then it really isn't that noteworthy. -- Cab88 01:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Some examples of leaders Fox News have criticized recently
I was just wondering seeing that if Iran is creating controversy about their nuclear program, and Fox News labeled, Prsident Ahmadinejad as a threat to America, is that country prohibited from using Fox News? LILVOKA 03:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Ailes, often agitated and verbally abusive..." Have we got any sources for this, or are we just adding bits like this as cheap shots? Perrymason 23:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Amibidhrohi, but I feel that I have to revert your change. There was a study cited in this article, and this was a study led by a full professor of Political Science at UCLA (see his CV here). If there is anyone on this planet qualified to have findings on this subject, this is the guy. Moreover, I looked at the study and it looks reasonable, and in any case, the conclusions are what are claimed in this article. It is much more appropriate to say that "Groseclose found Fox was most centrist" as opposed to "Groseclose claimed Fox was most centrist"; this guy is the epitome of an expert on the subject, and his conclusions were pretty strongly stated in the study. To call the findings of an expert a claim is POV. -- Deville ( Talk) 00:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I was just reading this article and came across the ‘Rebuttal of Bias’ section and read the supporting research provided by Tim Groseclose. The section currently states, "Groseclose found that Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume had an Americans for Democratic Action rating that was closest to the political center, and concluded that Special Report was the most centrist news program on television." However, in the cited source, Groseclose clearly states "The first, second, and third most centrist outlets are respectively Newshour with Jim Lehrer, CNN’s Newsnight with Aaron Brown, and ABC’s Good Morning America." Brit's broadcast is listed as fifth most centrist (all on page 33). These results are also echoed in his "TABLE IV Rankings Based on Distance from Center" on page 58. His research makes no mention that supports the statement currently in the article so we should concede to a change in this statement. The closest the research comes to this statement (that I could find) is his sentence about “adjusted Americans for Democratic Action (ADA). It states that ‘[a]ll of the news outlets except Fox News’ Special Report and the Washington Times received a score to the left of the average member of Congress (page 2). If you read his research, then this is clearly not his conclusion. Also, this ‘Rebuttal of Bias’ section uses Groseclose's research to 'prove' a point, but then immediately attempts to discredit the basis of his research. I think we should revise or remove this conflicting section because it contradicts itself. Anyone agree/disagree? -- Adam Clark (User_Talk) (email) 19:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Back to the Groseclose study. I removed the following recently-added sentence:
At the very least, this sentence is OR, since it requires an a priori assumption on the part of the writer that these two publications are themselves conservative, for which I have seen no citations. Moreover, what does "openly conservative" mean in the first place?-- Deville ( Talk) 23:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone object to removing the term 'subscriber' at the start of the article as it gives the impression that 85 million people in the US specifically request to subscribe to fox news when this is not the case. Maybe that it is accessible to 85 million people would be a fair compromise.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Liam1234 ( talk • contribs) 20:25, May 6, 2006
Gorgonzilla, you are clearly biased. I have a hard time believing you're trying to be objective, whatsoever. First, you cite a blog entry to refute an academic study. Fine. Then a rebuttal to that exact blog entry by Stanford and UCLA professors appears, and you remove it. Why is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.60.51 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, May 7, 2006
Gorgonzilla, your deletion of the Groseclose study without consensus is unacceptable. Just because you believe it "does not merit" this attention does not make it so. I will place the Groseclose language back in. Calwatch 04:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't delete the study, merely the re-rebuttal which if it were admitted would require a re-re-rebuttal to also be admitted if anyone thought it was worth it. At this point I think that the paragraph pretty much demonstrates the bizare lengths people go to in order to cling to the peculiar idea that Fox has no right wing bias. The only way that is possible is to define the political center as being somewhere between the right wing of the Republican party and the extreme right. -- Gorgonzilla 06:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Murcdoch owns the London Times and the Sun. The circulation of the Sun is many times that of the London Times but nobody would ever describe the Sun as the Leading UK newspaper except a Sun journalist. The Telegraph has a larger circulation than the Guardian, Times and Independent, yet anyone following the UK political scene knows that those three (plus the Economist) are the leading UK newspapers. The term leading means that there are followers. The only follower of Fox is Air America. So the use of the definite article in the introduction is subjective not objective. -- Gorgonzilla 16:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The following text, which I just removed from the entry, was in the section on ratings:
In the Introduction written in 2004 to the new edition of her 2002 book, New Nuclear Danger (publisher: New Press), the Nobel Prize nominee and author Dr. Helen Caldicot claims on page xvi of that 2004 Introduction that Rupert Murdoch, owner of FOX News, has in the past helped with "[p]reprations for the second U.S. Iraq invasion (the first invasion had taken place in 1991) [which] were started in 1992 by a small group of 'defense intellectuals'... [who] began to publish a series of letters in The Weekly Standard [also owned by Murdoch] calling for another U.S. invation of Iraq, as well as advocating support of Israel's campaign against the Palestinians and warning about the rising power of China."
I'm not sure this should even be in the article at all, but it certainly shouldn't be in the section on ratings as it has nothing to do with them. Suggestions? Lawyer2b 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
So it occurs to me that as of now, given the recent deletions, the section entitled "Controversies and allegations of bias" now has exactly zero sources in it. And, frankly, most of what is in this section is more polemic than statement, and it seems unlikely that much of this content would stay once we had the section NPOV. What should we do here? I'm sort of tempted to remove this section entirely and start over, but I wanted to hear other thoughts on this. -- Deville ( Talk) 03:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
It's called bowdlerizing; creating a POV fork to dodge WP:NPOV. I've restored a reasonable summary per WP:POVFORK. FeloniousMonk 05:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There's right now a mention in the "Controversies" section of that infamous PIPA study that supposedly proved that Fox News viewers are less informed than the general public. The obvious flaw in the study is that it only asked questions whose correct answer is more favorable to those with an anti-war or anti-Bush position. I put in a sentence after the cite noting that some have made that accusation of the study, with a link to this blog post. That sentence was removed because, apparently, it's against Wikipedia policy to cite blogs. I think this policy is clearly phrased to refer to citing blogs as sources of information, not of commentary, though - after all, if the commentary holds up, what does it matter who's making it? And of course there are blog opinions cited in many other spots in Wikipedia. But what do other people think? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the point about the study's flaws made in any mainstream media sources. Surely, there should be some way of noting this obvious rebuttal to the study. Korny O'Near 17:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
to blog site "Fox and Friends". Per Wiki policies, links to blogs and fan forums are not considered appropriate external links. Jeff Berg
Okay, instead of this silly revert war, can we hash out what belongs in this section and what doesn't? It appears to me that the tendency has been to use this section to launch attacks against Fox News in a non-neutral way. I'd say the FAIR analysis is fine, for instance, because it's a respected organization and it's their opinion. But the PIPA poll strikes me as out of bounds for three reasons: (a) there are problems with the study which some people (ahem) refuse to allow to be mentioned, (b) it's presented as some kind of fact instead of an opinion, and (c) maybe most importantly, it's neither a controversy nor an allegation of bias. The only thing the study judges is the viewers of Fox News, which of course the channel has no control over. But that's my 2 cents, what do other people belongs in this section? Korny O'Near 22:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The section should be a summary, that's it. A quick summary such as "The network has recieved criticism, and has been accused of bias in its reporting. For more detail, see Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias." In addition, these following "see also" links should be removed: Propaganda model, Conservative bias. Reason being: (a) "Propaganda model" is an implication that the network is used for propaganda. (b) "Conservative bias"? That's another implication that this article is used to show an unfavorable view of the network. The wording and examples in the current revision are simply not under compliance of WP:NPOV. -- Mrmiscellanious 23:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I moved the Rasmussen poll to the other article. -- Deville ( Talk) 02:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe some of you should take a look at an example of a section and its subarticle for reference. It's pretty clear to everyone that there's a group of people here that are just trying to remove legitimate and relevant information from the main article simply because they dislike it, regardless of what actual the Wikipedia guidelines are. - 85.210.45.253 02:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Earlier this month, the "This article may need to be cleaned up" tag appeared to be added but the reason exactly is not completely known or at least I am not sure what exactly the problem with the article is at this point. For whoever added this tag, what sections do you believe need to be cleaned up other than the controversies section? Was it put up due to the inflating size? | Chris 21:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Right now, in the new paragraph, three of the four "critics" listed as claiming Fox News is biased are comedians. I'll give Franken a pass, since he's now become a semi-serious commentator, but I don't think Stewart and Colbert belong here. They may play newscasters on their respective shows, but they're comedians; their training is in comedy.
(And interestingly, the fourth person cited, Chris Matthews, though a serious commentator, himself used to work for Democrats Jimmy Carter and Tip O'Neil - somewhat undercutting the point of the paragraph).
Also, all claims made in a section as contentious as this one should be cited. Korny O'Near 13:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
"A poll conducted by Rasmussen Reports during October, 2004 found that the public perceived Fox news as the second most politically biased news network, with 34% respondents saying they believed that Fox's goal was to "help elect Bush", leaving Fox second only to CBS, which was perceived by 37% as being biased in the wake of the memogate scandal.[1]"
so basically this is saying FNC is not the most biased, CBS is. Im pretty sure this section may as well be removed.
The whole Controversies and allegations of bias section is a mess really.
Put it all on its own page, this bit only needs to be a brief summary of complaints
Ted Turner is the CEO of a Fox competitor, who has recently been losing market share to Fox. It is expected and totaly non-notable that he would have nothing good to say about his rival. The forum in which such comments are made is irrelevant. Unlike the other criticisms in this section, which are based either on the results of public opinion polls or are from notable media critics, Turner's comments are not based on any sourced facts - they are the opinions of a compatitor. As such, they are not notable. Isarig 23:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It was justified and Turner is not a competitor, he sold CNN decades ago and no longer has a board seat in TimeWarner. Badmouthing by a competitor is in any case notable when the competitor is notable. Turner is not a noted expert in astronomy he is considerably more expert and notable in the news business than Isarig. -- Gorgonzilla 01:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
NPOV??? "All significant points of view are presented"?? Debate??? Every word of this now seven paragraph section presents the same side of the argument. There is nothing in this section that refutes any of it. I don't understand why there is a sub-article at all if certain editors keep adding more one-sided bulk to this section. It is presented as if it is an irrefutable fact that FNC is biased and slanted. -- rogerd 02:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The difference between Fox News and CNN is that for most people who don't watch it the single defining feature of Fox is that it is a tabloid propaganda outlet rather than a news station. Plenty of people have problems with Time Warner and CNN, the Cyberporn story was yellow journalism at its worst. But very few people claim that CNN is first and foremost a propaganda outfit. That is pretty much the consensus view in the US media though and 35% of the population agree with that assement. -- Gorgonzilla 20:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me (as a non-American) as very odd that Fox News is a disambiguation page, when most international users would expect it to be the channel.
Surely a link to Fox News Sunday could be effected at the top of the article, rather than having a separate page.
Almost all the links to Fox News are expecting the page for the channel. It seems like a sloppy move. — OwenBlacker 13:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to ditto Lord Voldemort's comments above about "sloppy linkage". These should be cleaned up to go to the destination, and "Fox News" should redirected back to the disambig. page, while "Fox News Channel" remains here. -- Mrmiscellanious 17:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The following is the transcript of Fox news interviewing Scott Ritter about WMDs in Iraq before the invasion.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62916,00.html
The following is another interview on the same subject with William Pitt.
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twr147e.htm __________________________________________
Why was the above deleted? 01001 04:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It belongs on the allegations of bias page. Squiggyfm 22:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/ip/foxpenguin80703cmp.pdf http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2002/Nov/26.html http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/51534p-48314c.html http://poynter.org/forum/?id=thememo http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/10/31/fox/index_np.html http://www.poynter.org/forum/default.asp?id=letters http://www.odwyerpr.com/members/index_media_notes.htm http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16892 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27061-2003Oct14.html http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1998Q2/foxbgh.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/fox-main.html http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,1073216,00.html http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/22/fox.franken/ http://www.nynewsday.com/nyc-fran0823,0,1365110.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left http://villagevoice.com/blogs/pressclipsextra/archives/2005/02/index.php http://stateofthemedia.com/2005/index.asp http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000837511 http://www.prweek.com/news/news_worldwire.cfm?ID=238636 http://www.prweek.com/news/news_story.cfm?ID=240207&site=3 http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/03/fox/index_np.html http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/cl-et-david12nov12,0,1163112.story
I mean really, sure I respect what this channel has done, but c'mon now, with ALL it's controversies, we HAVE to include it in the opening paragraph. Let me also just say that if you keep this biased opening for your article, u WON'T have it a featured one, since a featured article has to be DOWN THE MIDDLE from beg to end. :) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.99.161 ( talk • contribs)
In a 2006 poll conducted by Reuters and the BBC, 11 percent of Americans named Fox News as the most trusted news source, which is more than any other source in the U.S. including ABC (4 percent), NBC (4 percent) and CBS (3 percent). [1]
How is the above not biased and below is biased?
Close to 3 million people tune in to The NewsHour each weeknight (1.1 HH rating) and more than 8 million unduplicated viewers watch at least one night a week. In addition, the Erdos & Morgan Opinion Leader survey ranks The NewsHour first among all television news programs as the most credible, most objective, most influential and most current news program on television.
Does that mean 85 million households are currently subscribed to a cable TV or satellite package that includes Fox News, or 85 million households could subscribe to a package that includes Fox News, if they wanted to? If the latter interpretation is correct, it would be interesting to know how many households actually have it; this could maybe mentioned in the Rating section. AxelBoldt ( talk) 01:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)