This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I've been told not to protect this page, however I am archiving the talk and starting it fresh. If you think something in there is still alive, feel free to start the discussion, or bring it back from the archive. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 14:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It looks like Silverback was the one who asked you not to protect this page. Sadly, it was mainly Silverback I had in mind when I asked for this page to be protected. I'm obviously biased against Silverback, but, IMO, Silverback has a tendency of engaging in edit wars if things aren't going his way on the talk page. The main reason I'm asking for page protection is that we are having a lot of little issues cropping up faster than we can deal with them. And Silverback's edits are a fairly large (but not the only) source of these issues. Protecting this page will at least force Silverback to bring his proposed changes up for review on the talk page.
If Silverback is the only one who has asked you not to protect this page (and if he isn't, I apologize for bringing this up), I ask you to please reconsider. However, I have no issues with Silverback's edit of 06:20, 26 Jun 2005 being made the protected version. What issues I do have with that version can be worked out more permamently on the talk page.
I'm happy to hear that you are somewhere on the pro-Fox side of the spectrum. I think it would be helpful to have someone who is somewhat sympathetic to Silverback's POV provide some sort of sanity check. We on the anti-Fox side do try to be fair but... crazyeddie 17:34, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are several uses of "right-wing" as perjorative name calling. The redundant "right-wing conservatives" is particular obvious. Unless documented and sourced, this original research. "critics" or "many critics" is not a source. -- Silverback June 28, 2005 04:55 (UTC)
Silverback, Shem, if you will direct your attention to the to-do list, you will see that this topic is second on the list. So could you please hold your horses? I think this will go much smoother if we take things one step at a time. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:23 (UTC)
Starting with this diff here [2], see the rest of the discussion above and perhaps on their talk pages, to see this admin colluding on content before protecting. It was an unnecessary protection at that. His co-colluder User:Shem obviously is unfamiliar with the history of this article, since he accuses me not using the talk page, which I certainly have in the past. He is unresponsive to edit summaries, restoring unsourced and undocumented and unattributed material. His co-colluder User:crazyeddie is always playing to the crowd instead of objectively applying wiki standards to the material.-- Silverback June 28, 2005 05:17 (UTC)
I suspect Silverback is confusing "making sure I have consensus approval before doing major editing" with "playing to the crowd". If you will check out Shem and Illyanep's talk pages (as well as the histories, to verify that no incriminating evidence was edited out), Shem made exactly one comment: "I'd love to have Silverback on the Talk page, for once. Indeed, come over." It is difficult to construe this as "collusion". As for myself, all of my interactions with Illyanep have taken place on this very talk page.
Illyanep has expressed concerns about taking an administrative role over this article, because he admits to a bias. But, according to him, this bias is pro-Fox. So why would he be colluding with two anti-Foxers? (Assuming that Shem is willing to admit to being such. I freely admit it.) I also suggested that Silverback's edit be made the protected version. But Rhobite has pointed out that reverting to a prior version and then protecting is against Wikipedia policy. According to the article history, Illyanep did not revert the article, he simply protected the current version. By chance, the protected version (aside from some edits done to the "controversial article" box by Illyanep) happened to be Shem's. I suspected that Silverback would object strongly if his version was not made the protected one, which is why I suggested that his be used.
Quite frankly, Silverback's statements are showing why it was necessary to protect this page, far better than anything I could say. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:49 (UTC)
Looking through the above text, I came across this:
This might be the "collusion" Silverback is talking about. However, Ilyanep changed his mind about protecting the page after Silverback had a discussion with him on Ilyanep's talkpage: User_talk:Ilyanep#Do you have bad habits?
Then, Ilyanep changed his mind again after both me and Shem requested that he protect the page. Ilyanep clearly asked for conflicting opinions. "I will reconsider protecting the page if that's what both of you think. Unless I get a good enough reason not to..." AFAICT, since there were no further objections, with two contributors asking for protection, one objecting, Ilyanep simply went with the majority. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:55 (UTC)
Ilyanep announced his renewed intention to protect the page at 04:03 27 Jun - after Shem made his last edit at 20:47 26 Jun. Unless Shem had somehow gotten advance warning about the protection, I fail to see how the two could have possibly been in "collusion". crazyeddie 28 June 2005 07:16 (UTC)
Please stay on subject. The subject is whether Ilyanep was engaged with one or more parties in collusion over what version of this article was protected. The subject is not whether or not this protection was necessary. The subject is not this whole right-wing vs. conservative argument. The subject is not whether or not I "whine". Shem, it's getting late, and tempers are getting hot. Let's sleep on it shall we? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 07:32 (UTC)
Can we please do the following?:
— Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 28 June 2005 17:32 (UTC)
Ilyanep, with all due respect, Silverback has made some serious allegations. If those allegations are allowed to stand unchallenged, it could significantly impair your ability to function as an administrator.
It seems to me that Silverback is in clear violation of the “Assume good faith” policy: WP:AGF. Silverback has failed to apply Hanlon's Razor, “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” Even if our actions regarding placing this page under protection were in violation of Wikipedia policy – an allegation that I deny – such violation could be explained by a lack of understanding on our part.
On the other hand, it seems to me that Silverback’s wild accusations can not be explained by mere stupidity, and that we are forced to assume malice.
With this in mind, I would like to begin the dispute resolution process as outlined here: WP:RFC.
The first step in this process is to attempt to settle the dispute by direct discussion with the other party.
With this in mind, I request that Silverback retract his allegations that Ilyanep, Shem, and myself engaged in collusion regarding which version of the Fox News was placed under protection, and that he apologize for making such allegations.
If he does this, then I will consider this dispute settled, and we can return to either discussing whether or not this article should be continue to be protected, or discussing the right wing vs. conservative terminology dispute.
If he does not do this, then I would advise him to begin his own dispute resolution process regarding this alleged collusion. Meanwhile, I will go on to the next stage in the dispute, which consists of two contributors contacting the user in question on the user’s talk page. Shem, I trust you will act as my second on this matter? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 19:37 (UTC)
Whether or not Ilyanep violated Wikipedia policy is another matter entirely. I personally believe that he did not, and I will defend him if and when you intiate a dispute resolution process against him. Am I to understand that you refuse to retract your allegations of collusion and to apologize for them? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)
If this article does come to an RfC, I ask that it is brought as an RfC for the article, not against a specific person, this way we can get more done. Thanks, — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 28 June 2005 23:08 (UTC)
If you have suggestions on how to do that, I'm all ears. But Silverback is in clear violation of Wikipedia policy, and I intend to see him brought to task over it. Shem, the next step consists of two contributors attempting to resolve the dispute on the user's talk page. I'm one, will you be two? crazyeddie 29 June 2005 04:06 (UTC)
Done. User talk:Silverback#RfC Shem, your turn, assuming you want to. Your call. crazyeddie 29 June 2005 04:23 (UTC)
RATINGS The "Cume" debate is quite outdated. CNN stopped using that argument about 2 years ago when Fox passed CNN in cume also. Plus, although the article claims Fox's ratings are falling, it doesn't mention that that info was taken from a CNN press release... and Fox's ratings are higher than they've been all year. [4] The latest numbers have Fox more than doubling CNN's ratings. [5] [6] [7]
"By the "share" measure Fox is the most watched, though CN still tops FOX News in unique viewers."
This should be "CNN", right? maybe with [[CNN]] too?
I (as the dutch creator of the (unprotected) Fox News article) have not followed the ongoing discussion about this article. I just have to say that the critism in this article on Fox News is about half the article long. In other similar articles like CNN there's hardly any critism at all. Isn't this strange? Wiki213ip 29 June 2005 13:20 (UTC)
I have issues with the CNN allegations of bias section as well, but I'm a bit too preoccupied to do anything about it. To start off with, I seem to remember that earlier versions of the CNN article described international concerns that CNN was too Amero-centric, (including its overseas outlets). There was some concern about its exclusive, in-person coverage, of the Gulf War, and what deals it might have had to cut with the US government to do it. There are also concerns about the "all the news print to fit" problem inherent in all 24-7 news formats. I doubt these criticisms have gone away, it's just that FNC makes CNN look good by comparison. In the existing version, IIRC, all allegations of bias seem to be from the POV that CNN has a liberal bias. These allegations also have not had the same scrutiny from the left as the allegations of bias against Fox have had from the right.
As for MSNBC, I'm not aware of any widespread allegations of bias. I'd encourage anybody interested to do some research into the matter. Some notoriety might improve their ratings. MSNBC is my favorite of the big three 24-7 news networks, not in the sense that I actually watch it, but in that I can stand to leave it on for more than five minutes.
I'd rather not worry about how long the Bias section is, provided its not truly outrageous (which it once was, hence the Trodel Rewrite). If a particular allegation belongs, it belongs. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'd rather not trim out worthy information just because it doesn't "fit". crazyeddie 1 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)
Could somebody please do something about this wierd doubling of sections on this page? crazyeddie 30 June 2005 19:02 (UTC)
A belated thanks. crazyeddie 6 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)
I've also shifted the FOX News logo down to beneath the "controversial" text, because it was creating a thick band of shite space at the top of the article, at least in my browser. - Mark 02:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed that word because its extreme POV to say anything of the sort. How could that be said with shows such as Hannity and Colmes (Colmes is a liberal) that debunk any evidence of being exclusively conservative. THey may tilt right-wing, but to call them exclusive is POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MASTERuser ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The problem with saying "exclusively" is because it deceives people into believing that the network is close minded and/or bias. MSNBC is very liberal, but we can't call them exclusively liberal just because they prefer to promote a left-wing viewpoint. Cannot the same be said of FOX News? And furthermore, at network that calls itself "Fair and Balanced" is clearly not trying to be exclusive. They hire what is profitable, and conservatives are profitable. Thus, they dominate the primetime slots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 01:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Network employed Savage for a few weeks, and since then the network has made ZERO attempts to be fair and balanced. Name me ONE host on the network that is at least from a centrist viewpoint. The closest they can come up with is Chris Matthews, and he's a huge liberal. I guess these are the left-wing talking points. FOX News is every bit, if not less, bias than the other networks who time and time again are bailed out by the media liberals including the leftist blogosphere who controls the majority of the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 05:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Explicitly stating that a network has a 'liberal' or 'conservative' bias is entirely in the opinion of who's watching. All we can do is present equal viewpoints from highly-regarded people or organizations on both sides in their analyses of the network's supposed biases and make a judgment based on the majority of those opinions. Liberal people think FOX is conservatively biased and conservatives think CNN and MSNBC are liberally biased, and that will probably never change. Unless there's a source that proves every presenter and commentator on FOX News has stated that he or she is conservative, and the same goes for CNN and MSNBC in regards to their respective bias accusations, then I don't think we can accurately state that a network is 'exclusively' anything. NcSchu( Talk) 14:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
"Countdown with Keith Olbermann" (NBC) - 3 million viewers The Factor - (FNC) - N/A —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.160.219.159 ( talk) 07:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What he is saying happened for 1 week, in which half of the week O'Reilly was on vacation (his ratings drop when he is not there) and the liberals made a huge deal of it because they have been getting spanked by FNC for so long. One week doesn't justify a wikipedia notice for anything, and it was by a few thousand viewers even then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 01:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
How can something like that be said in the lead when there is no agreement to that opinion. Fox is certainly more conservative than the other networks, but they are not conservative relative to the American population, only to the other networks. Verwoerd ( talk) 01:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I have changed to lead. That sentence never had a "consensus". It is simply inaccurate to mention "critics and most observers". Some critics have said that Fox is moderate. To simply write critics without a modifier is wrong.
Original:Critics and most observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel and others disagree with allegations of bias in the channel's reporting. New: Some critics and observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel and others disagree with allegations of bias in the channel's reporting. Verwoerd ( talk) 23:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I was browsing this article for information about FNC's ratings and came across a line under Ratings - "For the year 2007, Fox News was the number one rated cable news network. It was down 1 percent in total daily viewers and down three percent in the 25-54 year old demographic. In comparison, CNN was up one percent and three percent, respectively. Fox News finished 2007 as #6 rated overall cable network.[34]" Well, needless to say, I was wondering why a comparison was made between FNC and another Broadcasting News Network and then the information on FNC's ratings out of ALL cable network stations. So, I went to the 34th source on the article and found that FNC was indeed still ahead of all Cable News Stations in 2007. So, I was just wondering why the comparison was made between the two news corps., and then the information given on FNC's ratings out of all networks listed right afterwards. I felt as if it was giving a false sense of CNN being ahead of FNC - even though the article clearly states differently - just thought I'd throw this info. on the Talk page so it can be deliberated upon. 74.244.29.221 ( talk) 22:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if this is the whole history, but this is at least part of it. There used to be no distinction between FNC and CNN, however some time ago someone put CNN as the No. 1 station into it's lead. An editor saw this and put a "conflicting" tag because both stations stated they were the No. 1 station. Not to debate the merits between the regular Neilson Ratings and the Cume ratings, the ratings which are used most commonly are those that show FNC as 1 (Neilson Ratings), and when you hear Neilson ratings these are those ratings. The Neilson Cume ratings (which show CNN as 1) are used as well, but they seem to be used more often internaly by the stations for setting of ad rates. Regardless of which is a more accurate reflection, it is not clear to most people what the difference is (FWIW, Cume ratings indicate unique viewers, Neilson ratings indicate overall viewers. FNC has fewer viewers but they watch for a longer period of time than CNN). So in the interest of removing the conflict between the lead sentences of FNC and CNN, those sentences were put into place. To remain consistant with how the average person views Neilson ratings, this article should say FNC is 1 and CNN's should say they are 2....however, there is nothing that I could find that explicitly states this...so here we are. Arzel ( talk) 01:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I've been told not to protect this page, however I am archiving the talk and starting it fresh. If you think something in there is still alive, feel free to start the discussion, or bring it back from the archive. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 14:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It looks like Silverback was the one who asked you not to protect this page. Sadly, it was mainly Silverback I had in mind when I asked for this page to be protected. I'm obviously biased against Silverback, but, IMO, Silverback has a tendency of engaging in edit wars if things aren't going his way on the talk page. The main reason I'm asking for page protection is that we are having a lot of little issues cropping up faster than we can deal with them. And Silverback's edits are a fairly large (but not the only) source of these issues. Protecting this page will at least force Silverback to bring his proposed changes up for review on the talk page.
If Silverback is the only one who has asked you not to protect this page (and if he isn't, I apologize for bringing this up), I ask you to please reconsider. However, I have no issues with Silverback's edit of 06:20, 26 Jun 2005 being made the protected version. What issues I do have with that version can be worked out more permamently on the talk page.
I'm happy to hear that you are somewhere on the pro-Fox side of the spectrum. I think it would be helpful to have someone who is somewhat sympathetic to Silverback's POV provide some sort of sanity check. We on the anti-Fox side do try to be fair but... crazyeddie 17:34, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are several uses of "right-wing" as perjorative name calling. The redundant "right-wing conservatives" is particular obvious. Unless documented and sourced, this original research. "critics" or "many critics" is not a source. -- Silverback June 28, 2005 04:55 (UTC)
Silverback, Shem, if you will direct your attention to the to-do list, you will see that this topic is second on the list. So could you please hold your horses? I think this will go much smoother if we take things one step at a time. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:23 (UTC)
Starting with this diff here [2], see the rest of the discussion above and perhaps on their talk pages, to see this admin colluding on content before protecting. It was an unnecessary protection at that. His co-colluder User:Shem obviously is unfamiliar with the history of this article, since he accuses me not using the talk page, which I certainly have in the past. He is unresponsive to edit summaries, restoring unsourced and undocumented and unattributed material. His co-colluder User:crazyeddie is always playing to the crowd instead of objectively applying wiki standards to the material.-- Silverback June 28, 2005 05:17 (UTC)
I suspect Silverback is confusing "making sure I have consensus approval before doing major editing" with "playing to the crowd". If you will check out Shem and Illyanep's talk pages (as well as the histories, to verify that no incriminating evidence was edited out), Shem made exactly one comment: "I'd love to have Silverback on the Talk page, for once. Indeed, come over." It is difficult to construe this as "collusion". As for myself, all of my interactions with Illyanep have taken place on this very talk page.
Illyanep has expressed concerns about taking an administrative role over this article, because he admits to a bias. But, according to him, this bias is pro-Fox. So why would he be colluding with two anti-Foxers? (Assuming that Shem is willing to admit to being such. I freely admit it.) I also suggested that Silverback's edit be made the protected version. But Rhobite has pointed out that reverting to a prior version and then protecting is against Wikipedia policy. According to the article history, Illyanep did not revert the article, he simply protected the current version. By chance, the protected version (aside from some edits done to the "controversial article" box by Illyanep) happened to be Shem's. I suspected that Silverback would object strongly if his version was not made the protected one, which is why I suggested that his be used.
Quite frankly, Silverback's statements are showing why it was necessary to protect this page, far better than anything I could say. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:49 (UTC)
Looking through the above text, I came across this:
This might be the "collusion" Silverback is talking about. However, Ilyanep changed his mind about protecting the page after Silverback had a discussion with him on Ilyanep's talkpage: User_talk:Ilyanep#Do you have bad habits?
Then, Ilyanep changed his mind again after both me and Shem requested that he protect the page. Ilyanep clearly asked for conflicting opinions. "I will reconsider protecting the page if that's what both of you think. Unless I get a good enough reason not to..." AFAICT, since there were no further objections, with two contributors asking for protection, one objecting, Ilyanep simply went with the majority. crazyeddie 28 June 2005 06:55 (UTC)
Ilyanep announced his renewed intention to protect the page at 04:03 27 Jun - after Shem made his last edit at 20:47 26 Jun. Unless Shem had somehow gotten advance warning about the protection, I fail to see how the two could have possibly been in "collusion". crazyeddie 28 June 2005 07:16 (UTC)
Please stay on subject. The subject is whether Ilyanep was engaged with one or more parties in collusion over what version of this article was protected. The subject is not whether or not this protection was necessary. The subject is not this whole right-wing vs. conservative argument. The subject is not whether or not I "whine". Shem, it's getting late, and tempers are getting hot. Let's sleep on it shall we? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 07:32 (UTC)
Can we please do the following?:
— Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 28 June 2005 17:32 (UTC)
Ilyanep, with all due respect, Silverback has made some serious allegations. If those allegations are allowed to stand unchallenged, it could significantly impair your ability to function as an administrator.
It seems to me that Silverback is in clear violation of the “Assume good faith” policy: WP:AGF. Silverback has failed to apply Hanlon's Razor, “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” Even if our actions regarding placing this page under protection were in violation of Wikipedia policy – an allegation that I deny – such violation could be explained by a lack of understanding on our part.
On the other hand, it seems to me that Silverback’s wild accusations can not be explained by mere stupidity, and that we are forced to assume malice.
With this in mind, I would like to begin the dispute resolution process as outlined here: WP:RFC.
The first step in this process is to attempt to settle the dispute by direct discussion with the other party.
With this in mind, I request that Silverback retract his allegations that Ilyanep, Shem, and myself engaged in collusion regarding which version of the Fox News was placed under protection, and that he apologize for making such allegations.
If he does this, then I will consider this dispute settled, and we can return to either discussing whether or not this article should be continue to be protected, or discussing the right wing vs. conservative terminology dispute.
If he does not do this, then I would advise him to begin his own dispute resolution process regarding this alleged collusion. Meanwhile, I will go on to the next stage in the dispute, which consists of two contributors contacting the user in question on the user’s talk page. Shem, I trust you will act as my second on this matter? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 19:37 (UTC)
Whether or not Ilyanep violated Wikipedia policy is another matter entirely. I personally believe that he did not, and I will defend him if and when you intiate a dispute resolution process against him. Am I to understand that you refuse to retract your allegations of collusion and to apologize for them? crazyeddie 28 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)
If this article does come to an RfC, I ask that it is brought as an RfC for the article, not against a specific person, this way we can get more done. Thanks, — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 28 June 2005 23:08 (UTC)
If you have suggestions on how to do that, I'm all ears. But Silverback is in clear violation of Wikipedia policy, and I intend to see him brought to task over it. Shem, the next step consists of two contributors attempting to resolve the dispute on the user's talk page. I'm one, will you be two? crazyeddie 29 June 2005 04:06 (UTC)
Done. User talk:Silverback#RfC Shem, your turn, assuming you want to. Your call. crazyeddie 29 June 2005 04:23 (UTC)
RATINGS The "Cume" debate is quite outdated. CNN stopped using that argument about 2 years ago when Fox passed CNN in cume also. Plus, although the article claims Fox's ratings are falling, it doesn't mention that that info was taken from a CNN press release... and Fox's ratings are higher than they've been all year. [4] The latest numbers have Fox more than doubling CNN's ratings. [5] [6] [7]
"By the "share" measure Fox is the most watched, though CN still tops FOX News in unique viewers."
This should be "CNN", right? maybe with [[CNN]] too?
I (as the dutch creator of the (unprotected) Fox News article) have not followed the ongoing discussion about this article. I just have to say that the critism in this article on Fox News is about half the article long. In other similar articles like CNN there's hardly any critism at all. Isn't this strange? Wiki213ip 29 June 2005 13:20 (UTC)
I have issues with the CNN allegations of bias section as well, but I'm a bit too preoccupied to do anything about it. To start off with, I seem to remember that earlier versions of the CNN article described international concerns that CNN was too Amero-centric, (including its overseas outlets). There was some concern about its exclusive, in-person coverage, of the Gulf War, and what deals it might have had to cut with the US government to do it. There are also concerns about the "all the news print to fit" problem inherent in all 24-7 news formats. I doubt these criticisms have gone away, it's just that FNC makes CNN look good by comparison. In the existing version, IIRC, all allegations of bias seem to be from the POV that CNN has a liberal bias. These allegations also have not had the same scrutiny from the left as the allegations of bias against Fox have had from the right.
As for MSNBC, I'm not aware of any widespread allegations of bias. I'd encourage anybody interested to do some research into the matter. Some notoriety might improve their ratings. MSNBC is my favorite of the big three 24-7 news networks, not in the sense that I actually watch it, but in that I can stand to leave it on for more than five minutes.
I'd rather not worry about how long the Bias section is, provided its not truly outrageous (which it once was, hence the Trodel Rewrite). If a particular allegation belongs, it belongs. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'd rather not trim out worthy information just because it doesn't "fit". crazyeddie 1 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)
Could somebody please do something about this wierd doubling of sections on this page? crazyeddie 30 June 2005 19:02 (UTC)
A belated thanks. crazyeddie 6 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)
I've also shifted the FOX News logo down to beneath the "controversial" text, because it was creating a thick band of shite space at the top of the article, at least in my browser. - Mark 02:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed that word because its extreme POV to say anything of the sort. How could that be said with shows such as Hannity and Colmes (Colmes is a liberal) that debunk any evidence of being exclusively conservative. THey may tilt right-wing, but to call them exclusive is POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MASTERuser ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The problem with saying "exclusively" is because it deceives people into believing that the network is close minded and/or bias. MSNBC is very liberal, but we can't call them exclusively liberal just because they prefer to promote a left-wing viewpoint. Cannot the same be said of FOX News? And furthermore, at network that calls itself "Fair and Balanced" is clearly not trying to be exclusive. They hire what is profitable, and conservatives are profitable. Thus, they dominate the primetime slots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 01:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Network employed Savage for a few weeks, and since then the network has made ZERO attempts to be fair and balanced. Name me ONE host on the network that is at least from a centrist viewpoint. The closest they can come up with is Chris Matthews, and he's a huge liberal. I guess these are the left-wing talking points. FOX News is every bit, if not less, bias than the other networks who time and time again are bailed out by the media liberals including the leftist blogosphere who controls the majority of the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 05:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Explicitly stating that a network has a 'liberal' or 'conservative' bias is entirely in the opinion of who's watching. All we can do is present equal viewpoints from highly-regarded people or organizations on both sides in their analyses of the network's supposed biases and make a judgment based on the majority of those opinions. Liberal people think FOX is conservatively biased and conservatives think CNN and MSNBC are liberally biased, and that will probably never change. Unless there's a source that proves every presenter and commentator on FOX News has stated that he or she is conservative, and the same goes for CNN and MSNBC in regards to their respective bias accusations, then I don't think we can accurately state that a network is 'exclusively' anything. NcSchu( Talk) 14:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
"Countdown with Keith Olbermann" (NBC) - 3 million viewers The Factor - (FNC) - N/A —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.160.219.159 ( talk) 07:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What he is saying happened for 1 week, in which half of the week O'Reilly was on vacation (his ratings drop when he is not there) and the liberals made a huge deal of it because they have been getting spanked by FNC for so long. One week doesn't justify a wikipedia notice for anything, and it was by a few thousand viewers even then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.77.23 ( talk) 01:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
How can something like that be said in the lead when there is no agreement to that opinion. Fox is certainly more conservative than the other networks, but they are not conservative relative to the American population, only to the other networks. Verwoerd ( talk) 01:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I have changed to lead. That sentence never had a "consensus". It is simply inaccurate to mention "critics and most observers". Some critics have said that Fox is moderate. To simply write critics without a modifier is wrong.
Original:Critics and most observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel and others disagree with allegations of bias in the channel's reporting. New: Some critics and observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel and others disagree with allegations of bias in the channel's reporting. Verwoerd ( talk) 23:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I was browsing this article for information about FNC's ratings and came across a line under Ratings - "For the year 2007, Fox News was the number one rated cable news network. It was down 1 percent in total daily viewers and down three percent in the 25-54 year old demographic. In comparison, CNN was up one percent and three percent, respectively. Fox News finished 2007 as #6 rated overall cable network.[34]" Well, needless to say, I was wondering why a comparison was made between FNC and another Broadcasting News Network and then the information on FNC's ratings out of ALL cable network stations. So, I went to the 34th source on the article and found that FNC was indeed still ahead of all Cable News Stations in 2007. So, I was just wondering why the comparison was made between the two news corps., and then the information given on FNC's ratings out of all networks listed right afterwards. I felt as if it was giving a false sense of CNN being ahead of FNC - even though the article clearly states differently - just thought I'd throw this info. on the Talk page so it can be deliberated upon. 74.244.29.221 ( talk) 22:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if this is the whole history, but this is at least part of it. There used to be no distinction between FNC and CNN, however some time ago someone put CNN as the No. 1 station into it's lead. An editor saw this and put a "conflicting" tag because both stations stated they were the No. 1 station. Not to debate the merits between the regular Neilson Ratings and the Cume ratings, the ratings which are used most commonly are those that show FNC as 1 (Neilson Ratings), and when you hear Neilson ratings these are those ratings. The Neilson Cume ratings (which show CNN as 1) are used as well, but they seem to be used more often internaly by the stations for setting of ad rates. Regardless of which is a more accurate reflection, it is not clear to most people what the difference is (FWIW, Cume ratings indicate unique viewers, Neilson ratings indicate overall viewers. FNC has fewer viewers but they watch for a longer period of time than CNN). So in the interest of removing the conflict between the lead sentences of FNC and CNN, those sentences were put into place. To remain consistant with how the average person views Neilson ratings, this article should say FNC is 1 and CNN's should say they are 2....however, there is nothing that I could find that explicitly states this...so here we are. Arzel ( talk) 01:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)