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I've added a paragraph on this. I've tried to be 'nice' in it. Perhaps others can offer some perspective also. It's reasonably fair to say FOX News is not well-regarded internationally. It's looked on as the McDonald's of news. (US Imperialism accusations, etc.) To be absolutely honest, it cracks me up. It's the sincere claims of neutrality that do it, combined with the hilariously biased reports. I mean, to me, it looks like a parody of US news!!!
I should point out, I'm pretty sure we get a different version of FOX News in Europe - I actually found the US version less hard to watch - of course there was a lot less international news.
Still, I think the perception deserves a mention, in a respectable fashion. It's probably not exactly possible for those in the US to suggest how FOX news is perceived internationally, but I'm sure you have comments nevertheless.
I can only comment on Europe. (Though considering sections of Asia, Mid-east and Africa are more virulently anti-American, I think it's fair to use the term 'internationally').
What do folks in Canada think of FOX News?
Zoney 15:45, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"A small controversy recently erupted between Fox News and another of News Corporation's franchises, the animated comedy The Simpsons. The Simpsons had aired an episode parodying Fox News broadcasts, for example using gag "crawl" headlines such as "Oil slicks found to keep baby seals young, supple." "Simpsons" creator Matt Groening claimed Fox News threatened to sue over the parody. Fox News denies it threatened a lawsuit (which might have resulted in the network's suing itself)."
That was proven false. Matt Groening was only joking when he said that.
this channels is awfully unfair and unbalanced; it is 99% conservative; you never hear a bad word about Bush or Reagan, yet you hear lots of fun poked at Clinton or Carter; for Fox News: Al Jhazeera are "idiots", the French are "weasels", Carter should "shut up", The Pope is "misguided", trade with Cuba is "feeding the bloody murderer of the century", Syria and Iran should be "kept by the mouth", tax cuts are good because "we know better how to spend our money" (as if there was no optimum point for taxation for a given criterion), environmentalists are "oversensitive", Al Gore is "the bore of the year", etc.
Only Commander In Chief is respectable, always right, dignified, strong-willed, decisive, making America proud, etc.
Is CNN liberal? I am not sure. However, at least they do not shout!
I removed this from the article:
I'm not sure what exactly this is referring to or what evidence there is for this statement. -- Minesweeper 03:53, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
This text is fair and balanced. If you think it's leaning to the right it's because you are a bleeding heart liberal.
Seriously, though, what really annoys me about Fox News is the way it puts style over substance. Loud jingles, flashy graphics, news tickers, logos and blaring headlines covering a third of the screen...and of course when there's a major disaster the graphics department swings into action with the latest tragedy logo and fanfare. OK, you see some of that on CNN, but Fox takes it to almost parodic proportions.
The really weird thing is, Fox currently broadcasts to the UK with NO COMMERCIALS - just weather maps. But does Fox's weather give a balanced proportion of sun and rain? Excuse me, I really need to lie down for a bit.
Cunctator, you keep restoring the following text to the introductory section from the criticism section:
Although you may see alleged conservatism as a compliment for a news organisation (and I would see it in the same way), many people would view such allegations as criticisms of FOX's style. Remember that criticism can come from minority groups as well as the majority. - Mark Ryan 06:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
But this isn't alleged conservatism; it's well-documented, professed conservatism. Fox News doesn't claim that its anchors and hosts and staff and ownership aren't conservative; it just claims that the news coverage presented by its conservative anchors, hosts, staff, and ownership is not conservative.
The allegation is that Fox News's news coverage has a conservative bias. That is the allegation, and needs to be presented as such. But facts should not be presented as allegations, nor should they be presented within the context of "criticism".
The probity of that claim is not for me to decide. We report, our readers decide. -- The Cunctator 07:05, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
What do we care about that in writing the article? Noone wrote "FOX News has claimed that its staff is conservative." If the article was How FOX News describes itself then we would only include claims for which there is evidence of FOX endorsement. But since the article FOX News attempts to describe what FOX News is, the standard is to include information about FOX News for which there is evidence. -- The Cunctator 09:22, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The question is if their staff is more conservative than that of its competitors. To make this claim without attribution, we would need a decent source, preferably non-partisan. Otherwise we have to attribute it. —Eloquence 10:30, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
We only need to attribute it if anyone has reason to debate its veracity. I think we can wait until that point. If, however, there's evidence of the counterclaim, then I agree that there would need to be attribution.-- The Cunctator 11:03, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have to disagree with Eloquence here. The facts are clear and undisputed -- qualifying them, calling them "alleged", and attributing them to "critics" only serves to distort things by making it seem like such claims are silly. -- AaronSw 23:37, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The section labelled 'bias' basically focuses on Bill O'reily and Alan colmes. And how the former is a super-conservative right-wing lackey (supposedly, of course) and Alan Colmes is a moderate (one of the only things not 'supposedly' in the article). Anyways, I think that section should be rewritted with a NPOV. Ilyanep 01:35, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the al frankin quote is entirely NPOV unless we maybe supply a supplimental FOX News or FOX News commentator quote. Ilyanep 13:56, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What is a conservative news story? There is a news story. 10 killed in Georgia, Nuclear weapons found in Iraq, Soviet Union reforms in Stalin's image, etc. There are no conservative or liberal news stories. Ilyanep 01:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Conservative news would be overemphasizing claims made my conservatives (ala, the nonexistant WMD finds), or featuring a disproportionane number of stories that are critical of liberals "And since 1998, one out of every 12 episodes of The O'Reilly Factor has featured a segment on Jesse Jackson (usually with themes like "How personal are African-Americans taking the moral failures of Reverend Jesse Jackson?")." →Raul654 01:43, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)
The quote I added from Al Franken re: Fox bias was removed as being "POV". The NPOV policy says that our articles are supposed to be presented in such a way as a reader does not know the writer's alliegiences (be they political, religious, etc). That does NOT mean we cannot use POV quotes to make our point. Quite the contrary, it's impossible to write about bias at Fox without including such material. I'd like to see the quote back in, although it should be qualified. It did add relavant information to the article. →Raul654 07:29, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)
Here's a grammar lesson for the self-proclaimed infallible arbiter of neutrality. Put commas and periods within closing quotation marks, except when a parenthetical reference follows the quotation. 172 12:28, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Look at this spectacle everyone. There's a page protection because I've decided to correct a series of grammatical errors by VV. That's pretty tendentious even for him. 172 22:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, for the love of. . . either of you could have ended this extremely silly dispute at any time by making a few very small edits, edits which would have required considerably less work, and created considerably less ill-will, than this lengthy argument (I would do it myself were the article not protected because of this petty squabble). I know you two don't get along well, but could you perhaps put your energies to some slightly more constructive use? — No-One Jones 02:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The whole section in question shouldn't even be there since it is factually incorrect. "Fair and Balanced" refers to the overall channel. -- Dialog
Re: section about 'fair and balanced' = news. I removed this section because it was factually incorrect. "fair an balanced' refers to the whole network. If someone want to add that opinion is what has lead to fox's success, that is fine, but the passage was factually incorrect as it was. -- Dialog
I have changed reference to Bill O'Reilly from journalist to news analyst. There's some question whether he can be considered a journalist -- but more importantly, he avoids the term himself. He calls himself a news analyst, and thus so should we. Alternatively, I would suggest "commentator" -- and in fact, I have wikified "news analyst" to reflect that use. Anyone agree/disagree? Cribcage 06:29, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm not going to involve myself in an edit war, at this point. But I believe the Franken quote is inappropriate, and creates a strong bias. Raul says the quote is informative, and comes from a reputable source. I don't agree with either statement, but more to the point: A few seconds on Google will yield myriad informative quotes which are critical of CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Washington Post, etc. -- many of which, arguably, come from reputable sources. This quote is neither noteworthy nor remarkable. It isn't even famous. It's nothing more than a sarcastic quip from a partisan pundit, and its inclusion is extremely POV.
Frankly, I think the inclusion of the FAIR report in this article is inappropriate. We don't include any examination of bias in the CNN article. Shouldn't NPOV be judged based on the entire Wikipedia? Shouldn't we compare one article to another, and strive for neutrality in both? A casual reader shouldn't be able to discern whether liberals or conservatives wrote any given article. The article should not reflect a balance of POV -- it should reflect an absence of POV.
The FAIR report at least offers some scientific value. The Franken quote provides no such benefit. If you insist on analyzing the cast of Special Report, there's absolutely no reason you can't do that without quoting Al Franken. Imagine reading an encyclopedia article about Bill Clinton, and finding a quote from Rush Limbaugh! The author's bias would be obvious. The same is true, here.
For the record, I think it's generally inappropriate to include quotations in encyclopedia articles. I won't object when Churchill's article contains his famous lines, or if the Wendy's article includes "Where's the beef?" But should Al Gore's article contain quotes from President Bush's 2000 campaign? They could be informative, and they were certainly relevant to Gore's career. Still they would be inappropriate. An encyclopedia should strive to be NPOV. Including quotations, even when relevant, carries implicit endorsement of the speaker. Thus encyclopedia articles are generally narrative. Quotes simply don't belong. Cribcage 06:39, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since I posted the above comment, no one has chosen to rebut. I believe the only arguments in favor of the quote were Raul's (dated March 11), and I believe I addressed those squarely: It's quite possible to write about bias at FOX without citing quotations; and if someone insists on including the "relevant information" regarding Special Report, they can do so without citing quotations.
I respect VV's attempt at compromise, but the result is inaccurate: Franken's quote is not famous. I searched Google, and could not find a single appearance of this quote, excepting those which appeared to mirror this Wikipedia entry. I've never read or heard this quote cited, anywhere. We simply cannot refer to it as "famous." That isn't true.
For these reasons, along with those I cited above, I am removing the Franken quote. I will be glad to continue discussion with anyone who disagrees. If I do not reply in a timely manner, feel free to post a reminder on my talk page. Cribcage 22:09, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss this, Chessplayer. I have no desire for an edit war. That's why I posted my suggestion last Monday without editing the article, and waited to read counterarguments. I've found this "talk first" approach helps to prevent edit wars.
You wrote: I think that the reason for its removal is wrong. Can you be more specific? I explained several different reasons why I believe this quote is inappropriate for this article. It would help me to understand which reasons you disagree with, and why.
I don't believe that removing Franken's quote suppresses any viewpoint. As I said, it's easy to present a viewpoint without using direct quotations -- and indeed, an objective, detached style of writing (absent quotations) is more appropriate for an encyclopedia.
I do believe we should present information about FOX's (alleged?) bias. That has proven a major issue, and our Wikipedia entry should reflect that. I think we can present information about bias without endorsing quotations from critics. The FAIR study is one example. And as I said above, if you believe it's absolutely necessary to include information about bias on the Special Report program, then we can do so. We needn't include a Franken quote to achieve that.
VV's point is well taken. I'm sure you would agree that we cannot litter every controversial article with quotes from its every critic. What makes Franken special, in this regard? FOX has been criticized by Larry King, Dan Rather, Barbara Walters, etc., people whose credentials are more impressive and more relevant than Franken's. Why include Franken's criticism? Furthermore, even if we granted that Franken was somehow special, what makes this quote notable? It isn't famous. It doesn't even criticize a high-profile program. Certainly, many of Franken's remarks about Bill O'Reilly have been more widely reported than this arbitrary quote from his book.
I won't try to speak for VV, but I think you misunderstood his comment. I didn't read his comment as a personal attack. I agree with him: I think that insisting that "all viewpoints" be presented constitutes a misunderstanding of what we're trying to achieve. We're not trying to achieve a balance of bias. We're trying to achieve an absence of bias. Bill O'Reilly has been very critical of Jesse Jackson, and has presented some damning evidence. We don't include quotes from O'Reilly in the Jackson article, and no one asserts this suppresses Bill O'Reilly's viewpoint. The Jackson article presents factual evidence in a neutral manner, without adopting the individual biases of his many critics. That's our goal, here. Cribcage 04:16, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer writes: "Franken is a major, famous, critic of FOX news. So, his view gets space." I don't agree with your characterization of Franken, nor do I agree with your interpretation of NPOV. But for a moment, let's set aside general discussion, and address one specific point.
Special Report is not a high-profile program for FOX News. I find it odd that a quote was chosen which criticizes Special Report -- as opposed to, say, the more prominent O'Reilly Factor. (As I demonstrated above, the quote is not famous.) Having said that: As I've said, if someone honestly believes this article cannot exist without including an assessment of bias on Special Report, that can easily be achieved without citing quotations. Is that acceptable? If not, why?
Returning to your statement (italicized above): Let's say, for a moment, that we agree Franken is a major, famous critic of Fox News. Let's say, for a moment, that we agree this entitles his view to inclusion in the FOX News article on Wikipedia. I can argue persuasively, I believe, that both Janeane Garofalo and Michael Moore are more significant (i.e. "major, famous") than Al Franken. Shouldn't we include their criticisms of FOX News, too? Shouldn't we litter the FOX News article with quotes from significant critics? Shouldn't we do the same for CNN, and Andy Rooney, and Walter Cronkite, and Tom Brokaw, and New York Times?
Let's take that one step further. Franken's criticisms have hardly been limited to FOX News. Shouldn't we include his quotes in our articles about Bill O'Reilly, and George W. Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld, and John Ashcroft, and Rick Santorum? If we are compelled to reflect one of Franken's opinions, mustn't we reflect all his others? Aren't we compelled to deconstruct his books, page by page, and copy each relevant quotation onto its corresponding Wikipedia article? Mustn't we then do the same for every book written by Ann Coulter, and Michael Moore, and David Horowitz, and Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham?
Obviously, I believe the answer to those questions is, "No." But I don't intend them as rhetorical questions -- because unless I misunderstand what you are saying, your answer to each is, "Yes." Is that accurate?
As an aside: I appreciate the care and thought you have given to this discussion. I can see that we're both trying to articulate our positions. Perhaps we each feel like we're repeating ourselves, a bit -- but we've been able to argue our respective points without name-calling or mudslinging. That's been rare on Wikipedia, lately, and I think we should take a breath to pat ourselves on the back. :-) Cribcage 22:00, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
"Meanwhile, critics contend that it is FOX who is biased. Pointing to examples of allegedly unfair presentation, the large number of conservative staffers, and leaked memos, these critics paint a picture of an avowedly-partisan news organization that spins stories to the right while publicly claiming to be 'fair and balanced'. Others point to New Yorker article Vox Fox ( http://www.kenauletta.com/voxfox.html ) where Ailes makes it very clear that the network was conceived as a platform for conservative opinion."
Where in _Vox Fox_ does Ailes make it "very clear" that the network "was conceived as a platform for conservative opinion"?
- "It's too liberal." Ailes explains, "I think the mainstream media thinks liberalism is the center of the road. I really think that they don't understand that there are serious people in America who don't necessarily agree with everything they hear on the Upper East Side of Manhattan."
- "There is an underserved market in news. . . . What I meant was 'fair and balanced.' I think I can create a market for the news." He believed that, "up until the Fox News channel, if any conservative or even libertarian got his opinion on the air, it was viewed as right wing."
- Friends later worried that Ailes would be accused of blatantly promoting right-wing viewpoints, and he responded, "Good! That'll drive my ratings up!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#The_basic_concept_of_neutrality
Wikipedia's policy is to create articles that present conflicting views without asserting the editor's opinions as to which are true. NPOV means presenting all sides of an issue, in a factual way, by describing what the sides say, while the editors, us, do not add our own voices by deciding who is right or wrong, or even by giving any view at all. It is like we are the famous TV cop Joe Friday on Dragnet: Wikipedia editors write "Just the facts." In matters of opinion, we write "just the facts" by telling what the sides of the issue are, quoting them, even, when appropriate. We just report what other people say. We do it in a neutral way, because we write the article so that the article itself does not advocate anything at all. So, presenting all sides is NOT a misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve, it IS what we are trying to achieve. The purpose of the article is to tell what the sides are on anything that is not an agreed upon fact. Is FOX News fair and balanced? It is the job of the article to report that it is a question that has been raised (a fact), and what the sides are on this question. What the sides say is a fact, they said it. Whether its true what they argue, is not addressed at all in Wikipedia articles. That would be taking sides by the Wikipedia editors, which is absolutely forbidden. So, fact: one point of view in the FOX News debate is Al Franken's, so he and his quote belong in the article. All significant points of view are presented in good Wikipedia articles. To delete Franken, is to say he doesn't count, his opinion is not very important in this matter. I don't think that is valid, Franken is a major, famous, critic of FOX news. So, his view gets space. How much space is a factor of how relevant to the issue we editors feel he is; NPOV doesn't mean every view gets the same space. That leads to honest disputes about how much space to give to views, and who is so insignificant we won't mention them at all. Deleting someone entirely is saying their view is completely unimportant to the issue discussed. With Al Franken, my opinion is he deserves the space he was given, as his quote is very to the point, and he is a famous person in regards to this debate. Finally, the NPOV policy creates articles unlike any found in most places, including encyclopedias. Wikipedia, properly written according to the NPOV policy, never asserts anything not universally agreed upon as fact. Everything else is stated by giving what somebody else says or writes or believes about it. Other encyclopedias don't do this, they usually assert the views of whoever writes the article. They are "authoritative"; an expert writes the article where he simply says something is true, not identifying himself except by signing the article at the bottom, and you can either believe him or not. But Wikipedia, properly written, never asserts anything that is not universally held as a fact. We can't even say the Earth is round. We can only report that most scientists and geographers say it is, and that there are a few people who disagree, and belong to the Flat Earth Society. See the NPOV article link above for a fuller discussion of the NPOV policy, please. What you have just read is only my personal opinion of the policy, but I do believe it is in accord with the "official" policy at the link. Please go read it and go ahead and roast me if I have materially misstated it :-) ChessPlayer 08:19, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Addressing Cribcage's points. (a) So you don't mind if a passage is inserted that says exactly the same thing as the Franken quote, paraphrasing Franken and mentioning him, only not in the form of a quote? If that's your objection, then the Franken quote belongs in the article until you or someone else "improves" it by saying the same thing in a better way, and editors agree its said better. (b) It need not be proven that Al Franken is the most prominent critic, to justify his quote being in the article. The purpose of the article is to present all sides, and he is definately a "side". (c) The quote gives material from Al Franken's side, and NPOV policy states that is what wiki articles are supposed to do, present the sides. (d) you skipped (d). (e) Just cause it isn't liked how good something is, doesn't mean it should be deleted. Deletion is for errors. Deleting things like the Franken quote instead of improving them violates NPOV, by deleting information by one of the sides and replacing it with nothing. ChessPlayer 00:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
It was my impression that it is now clear what editors of the wiki article are seeking in regards to the specific issue at hand, which is whether this Al Franken quote belongs in the article. It is clear, I hope, that the purpose of articles is to present all sides without favoring any or presenting them as the truth. The Franken quote thus belongs, because the purpose of a Wikipidia article is to present the sides of an issue, that is what NPOV defines the mission of Wikipidia. The quote helps to present the Al Franken side, so it belongs. If it doesn't do a good job, then make it better. Deleting it does not make it better. ChessPlayer 22:49, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: I'd like to address some of your points from both your recent comments. For clarity's sake, I'll quote your comments in italics, so you know what I'm responding to in each section.
Regarding Wikipedia policy: "Except for hard facts, everything has to be attributed to someone." I think if you look around, you'll discover that isn't true. In Wikipedia, as with encyclopedias in general, quotations are rare. (This is why I was surprised by Raul's comment that writing an entry without using quotations is "bad.")
"It need not be proven that Al Franken is the most prominent critic, to justify his quote being in the article. The purpose of the article is to present all sides, and he is definately a 'side'." You've made this argument several times, yet I don't feel you've addressed any of my questions about it. Please see my comments, above -- specifically, the last entry in Franken, Revisited, dated 22:00, 6 May 2004 (UTC).
"So you don't mind if a passage is inserted that says exactly the same thing as the Franken quote, paraphrasing Franken and mentioning him, only not in the form of a quote?" I would see little distinction, and my objection would remain the same. If my suggestion wasn't clear, then I apologize. Let me try to clarify by offering a specific suggestion: If you feel it is absolutely necessary to criticize Special Report, then perhaps we could add the following:
"Deletion is for errors." Deletion is not reserved for errors. I think you'll find, as a writer, that deletion is often an invaluable tool for improvment. Revision without deletion is like building a birdhouse without a hammer.
"Deleting it does not make it better." I've explained at length why, in this case, I believe deleting this quote does indeed make this article better. Specifically, I've explained why deleting this quote makes this article more NPOV.
VV has stated, quite correctly, that the FOX News article is already laden with criticism of alleged bias. Even without the Franken quote, I believe the FOX News article is far from NPOV. I believe the article clearly reflects a liberal-media POV which is critical of FOX News. I explained in my original comment: Although I do not think this material is proper, I will grant that some of it (e.g., the FAIR report) is defensible. I believe the Franken quote is completely indefensible, and I have explained why.
However, let me offer a suggestion. Go over to the Bill Clinton article, and insert the following:
I suspect you'll be met with loud objections. Fellow Wikipedians will explain to you that inserting this quotation violates NPOV policy. For that matter, I doubt you'll receive any polite overtures to compromise, such as, "Maybe you can include that information, without quoting O'Reilly..." The quote will be summarily deleted, notwithstanding its informative nature.
Likewise, the Franken quote is totally inappropriate here.
Cribcage 04:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: Can you please reformat your last entry? I would prefer you leave my comments intact, to facilitate reading by other community members. (This may become important, if we have to proceed with an RfC regarding this article.) Feel free to quote from my comments, as I have done when replying to yours. Thanks.
Cribcage 05:52, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, Cribcage, per your request I removed my replies to your replies to my assertions. I see no need to go to the work to put them elsewhere on the page, now that you have read them. If anybody really wants to see them, let them go to the talk page history and look them up. ChessPlayer 06:50, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: I appreciate your tone, and I do not take offense at your personal comments. I will try again to address your thoughts about NPOV.
You wrote: "Have you absorbed the section where it explains that the goal is not to create 'neutrality' by balancing what the editors think, but that 'neutrality' refers to not arguing any case at all, but simply reporting facts with no point of view at all taken by the page? That it is not important if a point of view argued by someone like Al Franken is true or not, that the goal is not for the article itself to assert the "truth," but simply to report things?"
You have repeatedly asked whether I have read the NPOV policy, and it occurs to me that I have not yet answered your question directly. Yes, I have read the policy. I believe I understand it clearly.
Neutrality is obviously affected by choosing which facts to report. Neutrality must exist both within a single article, and across Wikipedia as a whole. I have talked at length, above, about the implications of including Franken's quote. To briefly recap: If we include this quote, we must include countless similar quotes from Franken and others, pro and con, concerning FOX News and scores of other topics. You're proposing a chain reaction, which would litter Wikipedia with biased, trivial, inane quotations, solely qualified by having been uttered by "major, famous" people. That standard cannot be tolerated, and absolutely is not essential to NPOV.
NPOV is perfectly maintained across thousands of Wikipedia articles, absent quotations from famous critics. In this case specifically, adding Franken's POV to this article acutely damages NPOV. I suggested above that you try proposing a similar edit to Bill Clinton. I wasn't being flippant. I believe you would receive some thoughtful replies from various Wikipedians, and I daresay many of them would express sentiments similar to those I have written here. I think that might serve as a helpful analogy, which might shed more light on the issue at hand.
Neutrality is important, but we must not miss the forest for the trees. Our goal is not to build an article where all points of view, irrespective of consequence, are reported. Our goal is to build an accurate, informative, unbiased encyclopedia. We should attempt to represent different perspectives, but we cannot let a blind dedication to inclusionism cause irreparable damage to any article.
There is a world of difference between representing a major societal POV (e.g., aliens landed at Roswell) and representing an individual person's POV. I think most Wikipedians will agree with you: We should try to reflect all major POV in our articles. The idea that FOX News reflects conservative bias, for example, is a major POV held by many people. We should reflect that in our article (and we have, extensively). Individuals' POV are another matter entirely -- and generally speaking, those have no place in an encyclopedia. Cribcage 02:28, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Anyone have stats on how many FOX news hosts/contributors/etc are conservative and how many are liberal? I'm not a regular viewer, but I'm sitting here trying to name them in my head and I can come up with more librals than conservatives. I'm not saying that the network is more libral than conservative.. I just thought it might be an interesting addition. - Anon.
The issue with the Franken quote is not NPOV policy (I apologize for my very very inital miswording) but (A) the scope of the article, as it has been mentioned, we can't cover all issues concerning FOX News. Additionally, (B) we do not need to have half the article about the Bias...all the stuff about the external studies belongs in external links and in my opinion stays there. (C) Al Franken is not a very good source for quoting criticism (for heaven's sake, (C.1) you don't quote extremists in criticisms of people and (C.2) many people will agree that many accusations by Franken are baseless...but that's beside the point). (D) Why are we even including quotes in articles? I think that is the main question. Ilyanep 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Guess what I'm a Jew too. Besides, even non Jews can find someone mocking the Holocaust insulting. In fact I would hope that they do. So even if I was a goy, I could still be pissed at O'Reilly for triviliazing the Holocaust. But yay! I always like meeting righty lundsmen. Nothing like talking to a nice Court Jew who sells out his own people. Right wingers don't like Jews, although they pretend to. Remember these are people who until 20-30 years ago were against civil rights (which meant liberation for everyone who was not a WASP). Shit even Nixon couldn't help but let his right wing anti-Semitism shine. Do you think Pat Robertson or Falwell really cares about the well being of the Jewish people???? Congrats, you are an amazing person. (also Bill O'Reilly poops his pants and kicks puppies, and so do you) StoptheBus18 14:21, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Are you kidding the, majority of Jews in America lean to the left. The majority of Jews vote democrat, are pro-Choice, are pro-Affirmative-Action and anti-Bush. Jews have historically been left of center. We marched against the right wing in the 1960s when conservatives were unwilling to let Black people be people. We fought fascists in Spain as part of the Popular Front during the Spanish Civil War. The organizations that led the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, was founded by Jewish socialist youth groups like Hashomer Hatzair, see also the ZOB. And as your claims about left wing being pro-Arab, there are some factions of the left wing that are radical, but most progressives are neither pro-Israeli or pro-Arab, they are pro-Peace. You're sweeping and unintellectual accusations level towards the left wing is childish and frankly stupid. But then again I don't expect much from a sellout Court Jew. You are the Uncle Tom of the Jewish people. StoptheBus18 18:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well you're not a fan of sarcasm are you? (I'm referring to the kicking puppies insult, although I still think O'Reilly poops his pants... and you do too...) Way to side step the issues. Congrats, sellout. StoptheBus18 00:06, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
although CNN still has more overall unique viewers ... so how does FOX have better ratings. And how do they know this anyways? Ilyanep (Talk) 17:42, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That's not how ratings are determined. "Background noise" is removed, otherwise channel-flipping through CNN would count. Which it doesn't. Ratings are weighted, which still doesn't explain why FoxNews is so popular.
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I've added a paragraph on this. I've tried to be 'nice' in it. Perhaps others can offer some perspective also. It's reasonably fair to say FOX News is not well-regarded internationally. It's looked on as the McDonald's of news. (US Imperialism accusations, etc.) To be absolutely honest, it cracks me up. It's the sincere claims of neutrality that do it, combined with the hilariously biased reports. I mean, to me, it looks like a parody of US news!!!
I should point out, I'm pretty sure we get a different version of FOX News in Europe - I actually found the US version less hard to watch - of course there was a lot less international news.
Still, I think the perception deserves a mention, in a respectable fashion. It's probably not exactly possible for those in the US to suggest how FOX news is perceived internationally, but I'm sure you have comments nevertheless.
I can only comment on Europe. (Though considering sections of Asia, Mid-east and Africa are more virulently anti-American, I think it's fair to use the term 'internationally').
What do folks in Canada think of FOX News?
Zoney 15:45, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"A small controversy recently erupted between Fox News and another of News Corporation's franchises, the animated comedy The Simpsons. The Simpsons had aired an episode parodying Fox News broadcasts, for example using gag "crawl" headlines such as "Oil slicks found to keep baby seals young, supple." "Simpsons" creator Matt Groening claimed Fox News threatened to sue over the parody. Fox News denies it threatened a lawsuit (which might have resulted in the network's suing itself)."
That was proven false. Matt Groening was only joking when he said that.
this channels is awfully unfair and unbalanced; it is 99% conservative; you never hear a bad word about Bush or Reagan, yet you hear lots of fun poked at Clinton or Carter; for Fox News: Al Jhazeera are "idiots", the French are "weasels", Carter should "shut up", The Pope is "misguided", trade with Cuba is "feeding the bloody murderer of the century", Syria and Iran should be "kept by the mouth", tax cuts are good because "we know better how to spend our money" (as if there was no optimum point for taxation for a given criterion), environmentalists are "oversensitive", Al Gore is "the bore of the year", etc.
Only Commander In Chief is respectable, always right, dignified, strong-willed, decisive, making America proud, etc.
Is CNN liberal? I am not sure. However, at least they do not shout!
I removed this from the article:
I'm not sure what exactly this is referring to or what evidence there is for this statement. -- Minesweeper 03:53, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
This text is fair and balanced. If you think it's leaning to the right it's because you are a bleeding heart liberal.
Seriously, though, what really annoys me about Fox News is the way it puts style over substance. Loud jingles, flashy graphics, news tickers, logos and blaring headlines covering a third of the screen...and of course when there's a major disaster the graphics department swings into action with the latest tragedy logo and fanfare. OK, you see some of that on CNN, but Fox takes it to almost parodic proportions.
The really weird thing is, Fox currently broadcasts to the UK with NO COMMERCIALS - just weather maps. But does Fox's weather give a balanced proportion of sun and rain? Excuse me, I really need to lie down for a bit.
Cunctator, you keep restoring the following text to the introductory section from the criticism section:
Although you may see alleged conservatism as a compliment for a news organisation (and I would see it in the same way), many people would view such allegations as criticisms of FOX's style. Remember that criticism can come from minority groups as well as the majority. - Mark Ryan 06:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
But this isn't alleged conservatism; it's well-documented, professed conservatism. Fox News doesn't claim that its anchors and hosts and staff and ownership aren't conservative; it just claims that the news coverage presented by its conservative anchors, hosts, staff, and ownership is not conservative.
The allegation is that Fox News's news coverage has a conservative bias. That is the allegation, and needs to be presented as such. But facts should not be presented as allegations, nor should they be presented within the context of "criticism".
The probity of that claim is not for me to decide. We report, our readers decide. -- The Cunctator 07:05, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
What do we care about that in writing the article? Noone wrote "FOX News has claimed that its staff is conservative." If the article was How FOX News describes itself then we would only include claims for which there is evidence of FOX endorsement. But since the article FOX News attempts to describe what FOX News is, the standard is to include information about FOX News for which there is evidence. -- The Cunctator 09:22, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The question is if their staff is more conservative than that of its competitors. To make this claim without attribution, we would need a decent source, preferably non-partisan. Otherwise we have to attribute it. —Eloquence 10:30, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
We only need to attribute it if anyone has reason to debate its veracity. I think we can wait until that point. If, however, there's evidence of the counterclaim, then I agree that there would need to be attribution.-- The Cunctator 11:03, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have to disagree with Eloquence here. The facts are clear and undisputed -- qualifying them, calling them "alleged", and attributing them to "critics" only serves to distort things by making it seem like such claims are silly. -- AaronSw 23:37, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The section labelled 'bias' basically focuses on Bill O'reily and Alan colmes. And how the former is a super-conservative right-wing lackey (supposedly, of course) and Alan Colmes is a moderate (one of the only things not 'supposedly' in the article). Anyways, I think that section should be rewritted with a NPOV. Ilyanep 01:35, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the al frankin quote is entirely NPOV unless we maybe supply a supplimental FOX News or FOX News commentator quote. Ilyanep 13:56, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What is a conservative news story? There is a news story. 10 killed in Georgia, Nuclear weapons found in Iraq, Soviet Union reforms in Stalin's image, etc. There are no conservative or liberal news stories. Ilyanep 01:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Conservative news would be overemphasizing claims made my conservatives (ala, the nonexistant WMD finds), or featuring a disproportionane number of stories that are critical of liberals "And since 1998, one out of every 12 episodes of The O'Reilly Factor has featured a segment on Jesse Jackson (usually with themes like "How personal are African-Americans taking the moral failures of Reverend Jesse Jackson?")." →Raul654 01:43, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)
The quote I added from Al Franken re: Fox bias was removed as being "POV". The NPOV policy says that our articles are supposed to be presented in such a way as a reader does not know the writer's alliegiences (be they political, religious, etc). That does NOT mean we cannot use POV quotes to make our point. Quite the contrary, it's impossible to write about bias at Fox without including such material. I'd like to see the quote back in, although it should be qualified. It did add relavant information to the article. →Raul654 07:29, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)
Here's a grammar lesson for the self-proclaimed infallible arbiter of neutrality. Put commas and periods within closing quotation marks, except when a parenthetical reference follows the quotation. 172 12:28, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Look at this spectacle everyone. There's a page protection because I've decided to correct a series of grammatical errors by VV. That's pretty tendentious even for him. 172 22:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, for the love of. . . either of you could have ended this extremely silly dispute at any time by making a few very small edits, edits which would have required considerably less work, and created considerably less ill-will, than this lengthy argument (I would do it myself were the article not protected because of this petty squabble). I know you two don't get along well, but could you perhaps put your energies to some slightly more constructive use? — No-One Jones 02:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The whole section in question shouldn't even be there since it is factually incorrect. "Fair and Balanced" refers to the overall channel. -- Dialog
Re: section about 'fair and balanced' = news. I removed this section because it was factually incorrect. "fair an balanced' refers to the whole network. If someone want to add that opinion is what has lead to fox's success, that is fine, but the passage was factually incorrect as it was. -- Dialog
I have changed reference to Bill O'Reilly from journalist to news analyst. There's some question whether he can be considered a journalist -- but more importantly, he avoids the term himself. He calls himself a news analyst, and thus so should we. Alternatively, I would suggest "commentator" -- and in fact, I have wikified "news analyst" to reflect that use. Anyone agree/disagree? Cribcage 06:29, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm not going to involve myself in an edit war, at this point. But I believe the Franken quote is inappropriate, and creates a strong bias. Raul says the quote is informative, and comes from a reputable source. I don't agree with either statement, but more to the point: A few seconds on Google will yield myriad informative quotes which are critical of CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Washington Post, etc. -- many of which, arguably, come from reputable sources. This quote is neither noteworthy nor remarkable. It isn't even famous. It's nothing more than a sarcastic quip from a partisan pundit, and its inclusion is extremely POV.
Frankly, I think the inclusion of the FAIR report in this article is inappropriate. We don't include any examination of bias in the CNN article. Shouldn't NPOV be judged based on the entire Wikipedia? Shouldn't we compare one article to another, and strive for neutrality in both? A casual reader shouldn't be able to discern whether liberals or conservatives wrote any given article. The article should not reflect a balance of POV -- it should reflect an absence of POV.
The FAIR report at least offers some scientific value. The Franken quote provides no such benefit. If you insist on analyzing the cast of Special Report, there's absolutely no reason you can't do that without quoting Al Franken. Imagine reading an encyclopedia article about Bill Clinton, and finding a quote from Rush Limbaugh! The author's bias would be obvious. The same is true, here.
For the record, I think it's generally inappropriate to include quotations in encyclopedia articles. I won't object when Churchill's article contains his famous lines, or if the Wendy's article includes "Where's the beef?" But should Al Gore's article contain quotes from President Bush's 2000 campaign? They could be informative, and they were certainly relevant to Gore's career. Still they would be inappropriate. An encyclopedia should strive to be NPOV. Including quotations, even when relevant, carries implicit endorsement of the speaker. Thus encyclopedia articles are generally narrative. Quotes simply don't belong. Cribcage 06:39, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since I posted the above comment, no one has chosen to rebut. I believe the only arguments in favor of the quote were Raul's (dated March 11), and I believe I addressed those squarely: It's quite possible to write about bias at FOX without citing quotations; and if someone insists on including the "relevant information" regarding Special Report, they can do so without citing quotations.
I respect VV's attempt at compromise, but the result is inaccurate: Franken's quote is not famous. I searched Google, and could not find a single appearance of this quote, excepting those which appeared to mirror this Wikipedia entry. I've never read or heard this quote cited, anywhere. We simply cannot refer to it as "famous." That isn't true.
For these reasons, along with those I cited above, I am removing the Franken quote. I will be glad to continue discussion with anyone who disagrees. If I do not reply in a timely manner, feel free to post a reminder on my talk page. Cribcage 22:09, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss this, Chessplayer. I have no desire for an edit war. That's why I posted my suggestion last Monday without editing the article, and waited to read counterarguments. I've found this "talk first" approach helps to prevent edit wars.
You wrote: I think that the reason for its removal is wrong. Can you be more specific? I explained several different reasons why I believe this quote is inappropriate for this article. It would help me to understand which reasons you disagree with, and why.
I don't believe that removing Franken's quote suppresses any viewpoint. As I said, it's easy to present a viewpoint without using direct quotations -- and indeed, an objective, detached style of writing (absent quotations) is more appropriate for an encyclopedia.
I do believe we should present information about FOX's (alleged?) bias. That has proven a major issue, and our Wikipedia entry should reflect that. I think we can present information about bias without endorsing quotations from critics. The FAIR study is one example. And as I said above, if you believe it's absolutely necessary to include information about bias on the Special Report program, then we can do so. We needn't include a Franken quote to achieve that.
VV's point is well taken. I'm sure you would agree that we cannot litter every controversial article with quotes from its every critic. What makes Franken special, in this regard? FOX has been criticized by Larry King, Dan Rather, Barbara Walters, etc., people whose credentials are more impressive and more relevant than Franken's. Why include Franken's criticism? Furthermore, even if we granted that Franken was somehow special, what makes this quote notable? It isn't famous. It doesn't even criticize a high-profile program. Certainly, many of Franken's remarks about Bill O'Reilly have been more widely reported than this arbitrary quote from his book.
I won't try to speak for VV, but I think you misunderstood his comment. I didn't read his comment as a personal attack. I agree with him: I think that insisting that "all viewpoints" be presented constitutes a misunderstanding of what we're trying to achieve. We're not trying to achieve a balance of bias. We're trying to achieve an absence of bias. Bill O'Reilly has been very critical of Jesse Jackson, and has presented some damning evidence. We don't include quotes from O'Reilly in the Jackson article, and no one asserts this suppresses Bill O'Reilly's viewpoint. The Jackson article presents factual evidence in a neutral manner, without adopting the individual biases of his many critics. That's our goal, here. Cribcage 04:16, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer writes: "Franken is a major, famous, critic of FOX news. So, his view gets space." I don't agree with your characterization of Franken, nor do I agree with your interpretation of NPOV. But for a moment, let's set aside general discussion, and address one specific point.
Special Report is not a high-profile program for FOX News. I find it odd that a quote was chosen which criticizes Special Report -- as opposed to, say, the more prominent O'Reilly Factor. (As I demonstrated above, the quote is not famous.) Having said that: As I've said, if someone honestly believes this article cannot exist without including an assessment of bias on Special Report, that can easily be achieved without citing quotations. Is that acceptable? If not, why?
Returning to your statement (italicized above): Let's say, for a moment, that we agree Franken is a major, famous critic of Fox News. Let's say, for a moment, that we agree this entitles his view to inclusion in the FOX News article on Wikipedia. I can argue persuasively, I believe, that both Janeane Garofalo and Michael Moore are more significant (i.e. "major, famous") than Al Franken. Shouldn't we include their criticisms of FOX News, too? Shouldn't we litter the FOX News article with quotes from significant critics? Shouldn't we do the same for CNN, and Andy Rooney, and Walter Cronkite, and Tom Brokaw, and New York Times?
Let's take that one step further. Franken's criticisms have hardly been limited to FOX News. Shouldn't we include his quotes in our articles about Bill O'Reilly, and George W. Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld, and John Ashcroft, and Rick Santorum? If we are compelled to reflect one of Franken's opinions, mustn't we reflect all his others? Aren't we compelled to deconstruct his books, page by page, and copy each relevant quotation onto its corresponding Wikipedia article? Mustn't we then do the same for every book written by Ann Coulter, and Michael Moore, and David Horowitz, and Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham?
Obviously, I believe the answer to those questions is, "No." But I don't intend them as rhetorical questions -- because unless I misunderstand what you are saying, your answer to each is, "Yes." Is that accurate?
As an aside: I appreciate the care and thought you have given to this discussion. I can see that we're both trying to articulate our positions. Perhaps we each feel like we're repeating ourselves, a bit -- but we've been able to argue our respective points without name-calling or mudslinging. That's been rare on Wikipedia, lately, and I think we should take a breath to pat ourselves on the back. :-) Cribcage 22:00, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
"Meanwhile, critics contend that it is FOX who is biased. Pointing to examples of allegedly unfair presentation, the large number of conservative staffers, and leaked memos, these critics paint a picture of an avowedly-partisan news organization that spins stories to the right while publicly claiming to be 'fair and balanced'. Others point to New Yorker article Vox Fox ( http://www.kenauletta.com/voxfox.html ) where Ailes makes it very clear that the network was conceived as a platform for conservative opinion."
Where in _Vox Fox_ does Ailes make it "very clear" that the network "was conceived as a platform for conservative opinion"?
- "It's too liberal." Ailes explains, "I think the mainstream media thinks liberalism is the center of the road. I really think that they don't understand that there are serious people in America who don't necessarily agree with everything they hear on the Upper East Side of Manhattan."
- "There is an underserved market in news. . . . What I meant was 'fair and balanced.' I think I can create a market for the news." He believed that, "up until the Fox News channel, if any conservative or even libertarian got his opinion on the air, it was viewed as right wing."
- Friends later worried that Ailes would be accused of blatantly promoting right-wing viewpoints, and he responded, "Good! That'll drive my ratings up!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#The_basic_concept_of_neutrality
Wikipedia's policy is to create articles that present conflicting views without asserting the editor's opinions as to which are true. NPOV means presenting all sides of an issue, in a factual way, by describing what the sides say, while the editors, us, do not add our own voices by deciding who is right or wrong, or even by giving any view at all. It is like we are the famous TV cop Joe Friday on Dragnet: Wikipedia editors write "Just the facts." In matters of opinion, we write "just the facts" by telling what the sides of the issue are, quoting them, even, when appropriate. We just report what other people say. We do it in a neutral way, because we write the article so that the article itself does not advocate anything at all. So, presenting all sides is NOT a misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve, it IS what we are trying to achieve. The purpose of the article is to tell what the sides are on anything that is not an agreed upon fact. Is FOX News fair and balanced? It is the job of the article to report that it is a question that has been raised (a fact), and what the sides are on this question. What the sides say is a fact, they said it. Whether its true what they argue, is not addressed at all in Wikipedia articles. That would be taking sides by the Wikipedia editors, which is absolutely forbidden. So, fact: one point of view in the FOX News debate is Al Franken's, so he and his quote belong in the article. All significant points of view are presented in good Wikipedia articles. To delete Franken, is to say he doesn't count, his opinion is not very important in this matter. I don't think that is valid, Franken is a major, famous, critic of FOX news. So, his view gets space. How much space is a factor of how relevant to the issue we editors feel he is; NPOV doesn't mean every view gets the same space. That leads to honest disputes about how much space to give to views, and who is so insignificant we won't mention them at all. Deleting someone entirely is saying their view is completely unimportant to the issue discussed. With Al Franken, my opinion is he deserves the space he was given, as his quote is very to the point, and he is a famous person in regards to this debate. Finally, the NPOV policy creates articles unlike any found in most places, including encyclopedias. Wikipedia, properly written according to the NPOV policy, never asserts anything not universally agreed upon as fact. Everything else is stated by giving what somebody else says or writes or believes about it. Other encyclopedias don't do this, they usually assert the views of whoever writes the article. They are "authoritative"; an expert writes the article where he simply says something is true, not identifying himself except by signing the article at the bottom, and you can either believe him or not. But Wikipedia, properly written, never asserts anything that is not universally held as a fact. We can't even say the Earth is round. We can only report that most scientists and geographers say it is, and that there are a few people who disagree, and belong to the Flat Earth Society. See the NPOV article link above for a fuller discussion of the NPOV policy, please. What you have just read is only my personal opinion of the policy, but I do believe it is in accord with the "official" policy at the link. Please go read it and go ahead and roast me if I have materially misstated it :-) ChessPlayer 08:19, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Addressing Cribcage's points. (a) So you don't mind if a passage is inserted that says exactly the same thing as the Franken quote, paraphrasing Franken and mentioning him, only not in the form of a quote? If that's your objection, then the Franken quote belongs in the article until you or someone else "improves" it by saying the same thing in a better way, and editors agree its said better. (b) It need not be proven that Al Franken is the most prominent critic, to justify his quote being in the article. The purpose of the article is to present all sides, and he is definately a "side". (c) The quote gives material from Al Franken's side, and NPOV policy states that is what wiki articles are supposed to do, present the sides. (d) you skipped (d). (e) Just cause it isn't liked how good something is, doesn't mean it should be deleted. Deletion is for errors. Deleting things like the Franken quote instead of improving them violates NPOV, by deleting information by one of the sides and replacing it with nothing. ChessPlayer 00:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
It was my impression that it is now clear what editors of the wiki article are seeking in regards to the specific issue at hand, which is whether this Al Franken quote belongs in the article. It is clear, I hope, that the purpose of articles is to present all sides without favoring any or presenting them as the truth. The Franken quote thus belongs, because the purpose of a Wikipidia article is to present the sides of an issue, that is what NPOV defines the mission of Wikipidia. The quote helps to present the Al Franken side, so it belongs. If it doesn't do a good job, then make it better. Deleting it does not make it better. ChessPlayer 22:49, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: I'd like to address some of your points from both your recent comments. For clarity's sake, I'll quote your comments in italics, so you know what I'm responding to in each section.
Regarding Wikipedia policy: "Except for hard facts, everything has to be attributed to someone." I think if you look around, you'll discover that isn't true. In Wikipedia, as with encyclopedias in general, quotations are rare. (This is why I was surprised by Raul's comment that writing an entry without using quotations is "bad.")
"It need not be proven that Al Franken is the most prominent critic, to justify his quote being in the article. The purpose of the article is to present all sides, and he is definately a 'side'." You've made this argument several times, yet I don't feel you've addressed any of my questions about it. Please see my comments, above -- specifically, the last entry in Franken, Revisited, dated 22:00, 6 May 2004 (UTC).
"So you don't mind if a passage is inserted that says exactly the same thing as the Franken quote, paraphrasing Franken and mentioning him, only not in the form of a quote?" I would see little distinction, and my objection would remain the same. If my suggestion wasn't clear, then I apologize. Let me try to clarify by offering a specific suggestion: If you feel it is absolutely necessary to criticize Special Report, then perhaps we could add the following:
"Deletion is for errors." Deletion is not reserved for errors. I think you'll find, as a writer, that deletion is often an invaluable tool for improvment. Revision without deletion is like building a birdhouse without a hammer.
"Deleting it does not make it better." I've explained at length why, in this case, I believe deleting this quote does indeed make this article better. Specifically, I've explained why deleting this quote makes this article more NPOV.
VV has stated, quite correctly, that the FOX News article is already laden with criticism of alleged bias. Even without the Franken quote, I believe the FOX News article is far from NPOV. I believe the article clearly reflects a liberal-media POV which is critical of FOX News. I explained in my original comment: Although I do not think this material is proper, I will grant that some of it (e.g., the FAIR report) is defensible. I believe the Franken quote is completely indefensible, and I have explained why.
However, let me offer a suggestion. Go over to the Bill Clinton article, and insert the following:
I suspect you'll be met with loud objections. Fellow Wikipedians will explain to you that inserting this quotation violates NPOV policy. For that matter, I doubt you'll receive any polite overtures to compromise, such as, "Maybe you can include that information, without quoting O'Reilly..." The quote will be summarily deleted, notwithstanding its informative nature.
Likewise, the Franken quote is totally inappropriate here.
Cribcage 04:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: Can you please reformat your last entry? I would prefer you leave my comments intact, to facilitate reading by other community members. (This may become important, if we have to proceed with an RfC regarding this article.) Feel free to quote from my comments, as I have done when replying to yours. Thanks.
Cribcage 05:52, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, Cribcage, per your request I removed my replies to your replies to my assertions. I see no need to go to the work to put them elsewhere on the page, now that you have read them. If anybody really wants to see them, let them go to the talk page history and look them up. ChessPlayer 06:50, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
ChessPlayer: I appreciate your tone, and I do not take offense at your personal comments. I will try again to address your thoughts about NPOV.
You wrote: "Have you absorbed the section where it explains that the goal is not to create 'neutrality' by balancing what the editors think, but that 'neutrality' refers to not arguing any case at all, but simply reporting facts with no point of view at all taken by the page? That it is not important if a point of view argued by someone like Al Franken is true or not, that the goal is not for the article itself to assert the "truth," but simply to report things?"
You have repeatedly asked whether I have read the NPOV policy, and it occurs to me that I have not yet answered your question directly. Yes, I have read the policy. I believe I understand it clearly.
Neutrality is obviously affected by choosing which facts to report. Neutrality must exist both within a single article, and across Wikipedia as a whole. I have talked at length, above, about the implications of including Franken's quote. To briefly recap: If we include this quote, we must include countless similar quotes from Franken and others, pro and con, concerning FOX News and scores of other topics. You're proposing a chain reaction, which would litter Wikipedia with biased, trivial, inane quotations, solely qualified by having been uttered by "major, famous" people. That standard cannot be tolerated, and absolutely is not essential to NPOV.
NPOV is perfectly maintained across thousands of Wikipedia articles, absent quotations from famous critics. In this case specifically, adding Franken's POV to this article acutely damages NPOV. I suggested above that you try proposing a similar edit to Bill Clinton. I wasn't being flippant. I believe you would receive some thoughtful replies from various Wikipedians, and I daresay many of them would express sentiments similar to those I have written here. I think that might serve as a helpful analogy, which might shed more light on the issue at hand.
Neutrality is important, but we must not miss the forest for the trees. Our goal is not to build an article where all points of view, irrespective of consequence, are reported. Our goal is to build an accurate, informative, unbiased encyclopedia. We should attempt to represent different perspectives, but we cannot let a blind dedication to inclusionism cause irreparable damage to any article.
There is a world of difference between representing a major societal POV (e.g., aliens landed at Roswell) and representing an individual person's POV. I think most Wikipedians will agree with you: We should try to reflect all major POV in our articles. The idea that FOX News reflects conservative bias, for example, is a major POV held by many people. We should reflect that in our article (and we have, extensively). Individuals' POV are another matter entirely -- and generally speaking, those have no place in an encyclopedia. Cribcage 02:28, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Anyone have stats on how many FOX news hosts/contributors/etc are conservative and how many are liberal? I'm not a regular viewer, but I'm sitting here trying to name them in my head and I can come up with more librals than conservatives. I'm not saying that the network is more libral than conservative.. I just thought it might be an interesting addition. - Anon.
The issue with the Franken quote is not NPOV policy (I apologize for my very very inital miswording) but (A) the scope of the article, as it has been mentioned, we can't cover all issues concerning FOX News. Additionally, (B) we do not need to have half the article about the Bias...all the stuff about the external studies belongs in external links and in my opinion stays there. (C) Al Franken is not a very good source for quoting criticism (for heaven's sake, (C.1) you don't quote extremists in criticisms of people and (C.2) many people will agree that many accusations by Franken are baseless...but that's beside the point). (D) Why are we even including quotes in articles? I think that is the main question. Ilyanep 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Guess what I'm a Jew too. Besides, even non Jews can find someone mocking the Holocaust insulting. In fact I would hope that they do. So even if I was a goy, I could still be pissed at O'Reilly for triviliazing the Holocaust. But yay! I always like meeting righty lundsmen. Nothing like talking to a nice Court Jew who sells out his own people. Right wingers don't like Jews, although they pretend to. Remember these are people who until 20-30 years ago were against civil rights (which meant liberation for everyone who was not a WASP). Shit even Nixon couldn't help but let his right wing anti-Semitism shine. Do you think Pat Robertson or Falwell really cares about the well being of the Jewish people???? Congrats, you are an amazing person. (also Bill O'Reilly poops his pants and kicks puppies, and so do you) StoptheBus18 14:21, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Are you kidding the, majority of Jews in America lean to the left. The majority of Jews vote democrat, are pro-Choice, are pro-Affirmative-Action and anti-Bush. Jews have historically been left of center. We marched against the right wing in the 1960s when conservatives were unwilling to let Black people be people. We fought fascists in Spain as part of the Popular Front during the Spanish Civil War. The organizations that led the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, was founded by Jewish socialist youth groups like Hashomer Hatzair, see also the ZOB. And as your claims about left wing being pro-Arab, there are some factions of the left wing that are radical, but most progressives are neither pro-Israeli or pro-Arab, they are pro-Peace. You're sweeping and unintellectual accusations level towards the left wing is childish and frankly stupid. But then again I don't expect much from a sellout Court Jew. You are the Uncle Tom of the Jewish people. StoptheBus18 18:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well you're not a fan of sarcasm are you? (I'm referring to the kicking puppies insult, although I still think O'Reilly poops his pants... and you do too...) Way to side step the issues. Congrats, sellout. StoptheBus18 00:06, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
although CNN still has more overall unique viewers ... so how does FOX have better ratings. And how do they know this anyways? Ilyanep (Talk) 17:42, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That's not how ratings are determined. "Background noise" is removed, otherwise channel-flipping through CNN would count. Which it doesn't. Ratings are weighted, which still doesn't explain why FoxNews is so popular.