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Claiming that the Typhoon will reach M 1.5 with external stores based on http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00089/2_Eurofighter_capabi_89302a.pdf (pg 53) and http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurofighter.at%2Faustria%2Ftd_lu.asp&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF8 is absolutely false. The first citation is a marketing document by EADS aimed at trying to sell the Typhoon to the Norwegians. Nowhere in the document does it even state what the speed of super cruise is. All it says on Pg 53 is that it can super cruise with 6AMRAAM and 2 SRAAM. No speed, none in the document is giving to lend any credence that it can do M1.5 with that combat load. No one should be under any illusions at all that this is nothing but a marketing document by EADS. The second link is to the Austrian version of the Eurofighter publicity website. It never mentions that the Typhoon can supercruise at M1.5 with 6AMRAAM and 2SRAAM. All it says is super cruise up to M1.5 is possible. It's possible I can win the lottery too. Either it does or doesn't. In fact the Luftwaffe only says that supercruise is about M1.2 and the main Eurofighter publicity site never even mentions a speed. http://www.eurofighter.com/et_ap_pd_gi.asp?srcx=dev1-- Downtrip ( talk) 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
plus one metric tonne flight test equiment for the DA. The Eurofighter has this demonstrate offical.
Once there was an excellent article about the comparison between the F-22, the Eurofighter, Rafale, Saab Gripen, F-18 and a Russian fighter. According to this study the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10.1:1, the Eurofighter of 4.5:1 etc. pp.
Where is this article?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_21st_century_fighter_aircraft
If I type this in, I got redirected to this utterly useless page.
What happen to the other page?
Why always this deleting of valuable information?
Edit: The best page I could find about the DERA study:
http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/tech.php
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.225.75.5 ( talk) 09:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
How many F-15 with AESA? 18 with V2 experimental RADAR and the V3 is only in Prototyp stage. Now zero series V3 deliverd, up to 48 in the year 2010! More is in time not funded.-- HDP ( talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
All 224 F-15Es and 178 F-15Cs will be getting AESA radars which are in production now. the AMRAAM used in the DERA simulation was a very early model, not AIM-120C or D. Downtrip ( talk) 06:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
First, don't forget, DERA was looking at performance of not only F-22 and Su-35, but a well know by the time of study F-15, F-16, F-18, Rafale. Plus it is really interesting how future was looking in 1994. Second, don't forget, this is article about 4th generation fighters. And history of 4th generation is more then 30 years old! I see no reason why should we remove study, a really famous one and read by virtually anyone who was interested in military aviation. Outdated? I believe this is article that should give reader insights on history of development and performance of 4th generation aircraft. And anyone can see the date of study - it is there in very first sentence. Nothing prevent reader from skipping in case he not interested. But there is lots of people who will find this study interesting. TestPilot 07:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
But DERA is 15 years old. They had no idea what weapons would be used, they had no clue about AESA. The upgraded F-15s, F-16s and F-18s of today are not the same as those simulated in DERA. DERA was also a british study. They don;t know all of the capabilities of the jets being simulated. Also adding it for historical reasons has no place here. This is an encylcopedia and the article is about fighter aircraft in general. Can you find another place where DERA is even mentioned anymore besides the EF website? Banofreep ( talk) 17:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
So now the text gets locked and no one has anything to say? DERA is OLD and irrelevant, no one has refuted this statement and I think DERA should be remove. Banofreep ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I will post below for comment.-- Downtrip ( talk) 03:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that all references to the DERA report should be removed. It is obviously biased, was based on projected capabilities for some of the aircraft (if not most) and have been debunked by real exercised. Take the recent 4 on 4 between the Typhoon and Rafale in the United Arab Emirates that showed the Rafale spanking the Typhoon badly with a 4 to 0 score (see http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-raf-nest-plus-ce-quelle-est.html, in French). The DERA report was speculative and I think that Wikipedia should stick to the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kino french ( talk • contribs) 04:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
The page is now protected until some kind of consensus can be reached. -- Rlandmann ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
JF-17 Thunder has been repeatedly removed from this article. Senior members, please add JF-17 thunder back to the list along with 4.5th generation aircrafts.
Pk-user (
talk) 12:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please modify the statement about the F/A-18F Super Hornet getting a gun kill (Legitmately) on the F-22A Raptor to include the fact that the Super Rhino had violated the Red Air ROE concerning safety in regards to distance and approach speed/vector on friendly aircraft.
http://op-for.com/2007/08/rivalries.html#comments -- unsigned comment by User:TornadoADV— TornadoADV ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
---Then I humbly suggest that the source of contention be removed to avoid issue in the first place concerning such things. Until such a time arrives that such ponderings can be supported by reputable soruces that focus on the subject at hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TornadoADV ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
mig 35 has been featuring in the thrust vectoring engine list again and again, when it was not present in the original article.The thrust vectoring engine of mig 35 depends on customer specification and is not present in the actual model.I feel it must be changed from mig 35 to mig 29 ovt as the picture depicts. Daredevil555 ( talk) 13:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Why isn't the Sukhoi Su-35BM and the F-15 ACTIVE included in this article?-- EZ1234 ( talk) 03:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
There have been numerous and repeated attempts to list the HAL Tejas as a "4.5 gen" aircraft that has entered service. Neither of these are correct. The aircraft is 4th generation (based on simple spec. comparison between it and other 4.5 aircraft) and it will not enter service until 2010. Please correct this in case of future vandalism. -- H2d2 ( talk) 17:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The JF-17 is a 3rd generation aircraft, not fourth. Here are my references to back it up:
[1] From The News, Pakistan: "The JF-17 Thunder is a light combat aircraft, a single-engine fighter with all-weather capability, which Pakistan has developed with the help of the Chinese. It is a *THIRD-GENERATION* fighter that has been so designed that it can take on the fourth-generation fighter aircraft." [The News,Pakistan ^ | 2/8/2008 | Ali Abbas Rizvi ]
[2] From Global Security: "wlet dragon/FC-1 airplane had achieved the *THIRD GENERATION* fighter aircraft synthesis" [4]
I've removed it accordingly. 128.189.137.17 ( talk) 07:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be slightly confused about Chinese aircraft designations which is different for some reason from the rest of the world's. http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/default.asp What is considered '1st and 2nd generation' in the rest of the world is merged into '1st Generation' in China, therefore the 2nd generation in China is considered the 3rd generation in the rest of the world, 3rd is 4th etc. etc. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
With the upgrades to the J-8II to the J-8H and the newly built J-8F variant of the J-8II which have full look-down/shoot-down radar with enhanced ground and naval strike capabilities and is fully BVR capable (PL-11 and PL-12), sources in the Chinese government have stated that the J-8H/F is a multi-role fighter designed as low cost supplement to existing 4th Generation fighters thereby making it a 4th generation fighter (all be it an early 4th generation fighter which is not on par with the J-10 or J-11). To make a comparison, the J-8H/F is similiar to the Panavia Tornado ADV and Mikoyan MiG-31, both dedicated interceptors but with ground attack and air superiority capabilities. So I was wondering if the J-8H/F could also be included inthe list of 4th generation fighters. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j8ii.asp http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j8.asp (please note that I'm not using this as an argument for 'Generations' and its definitions but as an explanation of the development of the J-8 series of fighters from J-8I interceptor to the all weather, multi-role J-8II fighter). Semi-Lobster ( talk) 05:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if the experimental Chengdu J-13 project should be listed in the 'Cancelled Aircraft' section? I know it does not have a page (yet) but neither does ALR Piranha. The J-13 was an ambitious (some say, too amibtious) plan to creat an aircraft to replace the Chengdu J-7 series of light fighters. It was designed to be a high speed, high altitude interceptor fighter that at the same time was supposed to be able to match the MiG-29 and F-16 fighters. Issues over finding a powerful enough engine was the biggest problem. http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/chinese_fighter_development/chinese_fighter_development-6.html Semi-Lobster ( talk) 15:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
The 4th generation list has the Panavia Tornado on the list, shouldn't the Panavia Tornado ADV be listed instead or perhaps both should be listed? The ADV is the dedicated fighter optimised variant of the Tornado afterall, although one can argue that the Tornado is capable enough to warrant its position on the list. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 02:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
In the 'Combat performance' section, it states that the F-16 has had zero air-to-air losses but according to this New York Times article, a Pakistani F-16 was shot down by six Afghan aircraft in 1987. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DD143DF931A35756C0A961948260 Semi-Lobster ( talk) 03:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section for technological demonstrators fromthe 4th and 4.5 generation? They don't really fit into the 'cancelled aircraft' section since they were only designed to display new technologies with some eventually leading to a new service fighter like the British Aerospace EAP or Rockwell-MBB X-31. Should there be a new section for them? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 03:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Should the PZL-230 Skorpion really be on the list for 4th generation fighter aircraft. From what I've read and even from ehat the article states, the PZL-230 Skorpion was to be an attack aircraft, not a fighter. Should it be removed? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 19:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could have a debate about adding the Dassault Super Mirage F8 to the list of fourth generation cancelled aircraft section (with the link going to the Dassault Mirage G page). The F8 was the penultimate design of the Dassault Mirage G which was planned a variable geometry fighter but eventually was set to a fixed winged aircraft after the French Air Force concluded that variable geometry wings and the added weight and maintenace costs outweighted its benefits. The F8 was put forward by Dassault in the early 70s to meet France's 'Avion de combat futur' (ACF) program before the program's costs spiralled out of control and eventually led to the Dassault Mirage 2000. The F8 was designed as a single seat an agile multi-role fighter aircraft powered by twin SNECMA M53 turbofan engines, with a fixed leading edge sweep angle of 55° (which were found to be the best in trials on the Mirage G8), a Cyrano IV multi-purpose radar (BVR capable with look down shoot down capabilities on most models), a low-altitude nav/attack system, a laser rangefinder, Doppler radar and a bombing computer. The project was cancelled with the ACF program in the 1970s and the information gained from its development was used for the Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000. So I was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this aircraft? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 17:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Fnlayson has recently removed the Sukhoi Su-34 from the list of 4.5th generation fighter aircraft, claiming that the aircraft in question is not a fighter aircraft. Most sources, both print and online refer to the Su-34 as a twin seat, heavy fighter-bomber. As we have other twin seat heavy fighter-bomber/strike fighters on the list such as the Dassault Mirage 2000N/2000D and the F-15E Strike Eagle I do not see why the Su-34 should be singled out for removal? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 14:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
First up I wanted to mention the fact I've moved the J-10 and J-11B to the 4th gen list. I don't think they're 4.5 gen. I know design is an issue, but when people talk about generations they normally also talk about what's inside. You need to have both, surely. The J-8 isn't a 4th gen design, even if some planes are being upgraded.
Apart from that I see a massive problem with the article. Most of the aircraft listings are not cited, and indeed the article as a whole has few citations. The lists are also too long.
I would start by cropping all the cancelled aircraft and tech demonstrators. Then we need citations to confirm whether these aircraft are 4th gen or not. I would start from the bottom up, rather than try the hopeless task of getting citations for every one already here. If that's not possible then crop all the lists and just have a few examples. Currently it's an OR nightmare. It says something that the "review" tag seems itself to be horribly out of date. John Smith's ( talk) 13:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
What on earth is going on with the last couple of paragraphs? They seem to have been chucked in at random, from an article that would be better suited to an ametuer defense blog. None of it is cited, quite a lot of it is out of date and most of it is conjecture and fortune-telling. This isn't the 'which fighter is going to beat which' article. I'm removing said paragraphs for being irrelevant, uncited and out of place in this article. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover ( talk) 13:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been busy for a while so I haven't been keeping up with aviation articles but... last month John Smith's seems to have made a litany of rather drastic edits to the article with little to no discussion, or debate? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 18:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Ucucha 13:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Fourth-generation jet fighter →
Fourth generation jet fighter — Hyphen might be unnecessary. —
username 1 (
talk) 21:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's how SAAB separate the generations.
1st generation Includes early jet driven warplanes, such as the Vampire, MiG-15, F-86 and the J29.
2nd generation are jet fighter aircraft were weapons integration and avionic systems was being introduced. This generation involves the MiG-21, F-5 Freedom Fighter, F-4 Phantom, 32 Lansen and J35 Draken
3rd generation are supersonic fighter aircraft with an infrastructure based on separate digital systems, who takes great advantage of computers to achieve functionality. Aircrafts included in this generation are for example the MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000 and the Viggen.
4th generation are supersonic aircrafts with a digitally constructed infrastructure, with fully integrated computerized systems, which uses a common computerbase with a standardized interface. This means that sensors, weapons, control surfaces, control organs, displays and so on can be used as information suppliers and information carriers; offering in theory an infinite number of combinations in which to create the systemfunctions desired. The only limit are the laws of physics and the human being. Included in this generation are, the F-22, F-35, the Rafale, the Eurofighter and the Gripen. The principle structure creates a very high development potential, and has the ability to fully take advantage of future advancements in sensors, weapons and computers and so on. The 4th gen fighter remains young over time. New system functions can be created when there is a need for it, depending on the tactical demands, and the technical development.
That is typical examples for the differences in the definition of jet fighter generations in Europe and the US/Russia.
In Europe aircraft like the F-16 or MiG-29 are classed as 3rd generation, while the same aircraft are classed a 4th generation in the US/Russia. Therefore their successors must belong to the 4th generation in Europe, but 5th generation in the US/Russia. That is the reason why Europeans refer the 4th generation to aircraft like Gripen, Rafale or Eurofighter. That means a European 4th is a US 5th!!!
Actually China uses similiar naming system as European, hence the newest developing model is 4th in Chinese naming system (but 5th in USA labeling system.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.186.243.42 ( talk) 01:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Well it isn't that simple is it? That's the problem. It isn't just about chronological succession and it doesn't imply superiority (in one, or many or all) ways, but is used in marketing. The article needs to reflect the subjectivity of these measures, and the way in which they often reflect a categorisation of threats to what the categorising party possesses and thinks it can counter or otherwise, not an objective set of measures that cannot moreover become outmoded in time. Princeofdelft ( talk) 20:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm an outsider rating this article as I have taken on a few to get the list down. I'm trying to be kind here as it is obvious that there exist a wide range of views to be accomodated. Please try to remember that this is an encyclopedia article and to take a cold hard eye 3rd party view of anything that you write here. I'm an American and I promise you as an American I would hate to see that the F-18 was a markedly inferior platform but if it was, and this is just an example, I would write and support it as so. Please realise that there isn't a defense contractor on the face of the planet that will tell you the truth where there money is. Stay to the cold hard facts and don't make statements that can't be supported with cold hard fact.
Tirronan 21:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Unless the UN weighs in on this, can we use the American legal definition (to be signed tomorrow by BHO) internationally for the list of 4.5 Gen fighters?
I'm still looking for a ref for BVR shots using LPI plus datalink for bolts from the blue. Hcobb ( talk) 23:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
It's ok to use whatever definitions one likes as long as one declares this giving the reader a chance to understand that the American "generations" talk is a way to refer to threats and allies from the point of view of their own perceptions and the decisions taken as to how to equip THEMselves, not some objective "factual" measure of outright superiority. Princeofdelft ( talk) 21:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
It's a very small matter, and doesn't matter enough to have a "debate" over, much less an exchange of louder and louder contradictions, however I have removed the word "American" because it is incidental.
This was undone by Dodger67, who simply contradicted my rationale and accused me of hypocrisy. I contend that firstly, it is not valid to suggest that there is no known design or concept of any kind which possesses low observable characteristics a-la F-22/B2/F-117 per se, which isn't American, and secondly that offhand stating that they are adds an implicit bias that doesn't help. By listing examples, one can easily allow the reader to look into designs and see that they come from America, as well as being able to objectively evaluate new articles they read in the near-future on a case-by-case basis.
Using the label "American" isn't somehow hugely offensive to me or anything, but omitting it doesn't detract from the article at all, and avoids giving the article a shelf-life (that is, it'll be out of date as soon as anyone else has a plane or UAV that has the features being talked about.)
Given that there's very hard evidence that the Nazis already were working on a jet fighter that possessed certain low-observable characteristics;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090625-hitlers-stealth-fighter-plane.html
it seems to me that the suggestion that only an American plane can, today, be "really" stealth is incorrect, and Dodger 67 should have to justify his/her in my view inflammatory rationale before reverting the article, as a matter of principle. I feel my intentions show good faith but I'm willing to listen if that's been taken the wrong way. I do wonder though whether this would be just as acceptable if the aircraft in question had happened to be say, from Albania.
Again, I don't really mind if it is put back, it's one word, but I an dissatisfied with the attitude and wanted to explain myself because this is a much wider problem than the one word, in my view. Cheers everyone, sorry in advance if this seems "highly strung". Call me an idealist maybe. Princeofdelft ( talk) 13:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Asian listism is creeping back into this article, now that there is no longer a "list of" article to haggle over.
Can we cut the examples to two American, two Russian and two other aircraft? Hcobb ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Can we just remove the entire exercise reports section. It's just going to go in the same fanboyish F-15<Rafale<Eurofighter<Su-30MKI<F-15 circle. If information about about aircraft exercises must be included then it should be on individual aircraft articles and should include a non-biased POV. Given the fact that pilot training and technique weigh so heavily on the outcome of these exercises it really isn't even a contest of aircraft. - Nem1yan ( talk) 14:20, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Currently there are only 4th generation aircraft listed. I know we are all trying to avoid making the article too list-like but would adding active 4.5th generation aircraft be objectionable? The Su-35 is listed and it is very much an 4++ generation fighter (if we are to agree on a nebulous, semi-defined definition of a 4++ fighter jet) and so far there have been to objections or edits to it. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 05:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Does the characteristic of a fourth generation fighter jet include a turbofan engine instead of a turbojet engine ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.172.114 ( talk) 01:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. This seems to be uncontroversial. I'll also move the other articles in the category as proposed. Jafeluv ( talk) 08:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Fourth generation jet fighter → Fourth-generation jet fighter – Correct name, as "fourth-generation" is a compound adjective, and consistent with the existing Fifth-generation jet fighter article. Malleus Fatuorum 18:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I believe that the Eurofighter Typhoon should be moved to the 5th Generation article (and defined as 5th Generation in other articles). The criteria defined by Lockheed Martin for a '5th Generation Fighter' shows that the Typhoon meets as many as the F-22 Raptor, and many more than the F-35 Lightning II. Eurofighter themselves class it as 5th Generation, so this should be seriously considered. My supporting documents are as follows:
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/extpub/02_5thGenFighter.pdf
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef_world_2-2011.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lionwarrior82 ( talk • contribs) 17:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
BTW, what's up with "the F-35s will have built-in, PIRATE IRST sensors" in the current text? The F-35 has and will never have PIRATE, as it is a Ninja instead. Hcobb ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Several definition of generations exist, with no consensus on how they should be defined. Hence portraying the USA-manufaturer definitions as a standard is NPOV in addition to lacking a global perspective. /BP 78.70.77.35 ( talk) 19:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
What idiot ranked SU-34/35 as aircraft under development? Both aircraft are in operational use of Russian Air Force, SU-35 (22 aircraft) and Su-34 (31 aircraft). SU-34 is proven in combat in the war in Georgia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.93.243 ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Now it includes a couple conflicts where no planes shot at each other. Do we want it to include only shotdowns or expand it to include every time 4th-gen planes fly over hostile ground (maybe dropped bombs, maybe dodged SA fire, maybe just went cruising)? Rmhermen ( talk) 16:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Recently, an unregistered contributor User:218.186.15.10 has made several, unilateral, sweeping edits to the tables on the fighter aircraft generation pages. What is the general consensus on these changes? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 14:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Why are we allowing a photo of this fighter to be present in the 4th generation fighter page? India's own Air Marshall has labeled this fighter a "generation 3++" fighter, which in and of itself is already a clear and rather embarrassing admission of the true quality of this fighter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.122.59 ( talk) 07:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Why are we adding the "th" after "4.5"? It's not as if we are pronouncing it "four point fifth", (which would actually be written as "4.2"). It's silly, needless and doesn't make sense. It should simply be "4.5 generation". As in, between the "fourth (4th) generation" and "fifth (5th) generation", is the "four point five (4.5) generation". Can we drop the "th"? - theWOLFchild 01:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Sections of this article seem poorly sourced, such as the whole section on Performance, which is 580 words of high-density information with exactly zero citations. Is this original research? I'd like to know where I can confirm the information presented. 97.98.13.107 ( talk) 21:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
In this section "Fourth-generation jet fighters compared" another coloumn named "Per unit Cost" can be added. Sometimes 'cost' acts as an overall parameter to simply measure the overall worth of any item. Ahmedafifkhan ( talk) 10:37, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Claiming that the Typhoon will reach M 1.5 with external stores based on http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00089/2_Eurofighter_capabi_89302a.pdf (pg 53) and http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurofighter.at%2Faustria%2Ftd_lu.asp&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF8 is absolutely false. The first citation is a marketing document by EADS aimed at trying to sell the Typhoon to the Norwegians. Nowhere in the document does it even state what the speed of super cruise is. All it says on Pg 53 is that it can super cruise with 6AMRAAM and 2 SRAAM. No speed, none in the document is giving to lend any credence that it can do M1.5 with that combat load. No one should be under any illusions at all that this is nothing but a marketing document by EADS. The second link is to the Austrian version of the Eurofighter publicity website. It never mentions that the Typhoon can supercruise at M1.5 with 6AMRAAM and 2SRAAM. All it says is super cruise up to M1.5 is possible. It's possible I can win the lottery too. Either it does or doesn't. In fact the Luftwaffe only says that supercruise is about M1.2 and the main Eurofighter publicity site never even mentions a speed. http://www.eurofighter.com/et_ap_pd_gi.asp?srcx=dev1-- Downtrip ( talk) 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
plus one metric tonne flight test equiment for the DA. The Eurofighter has this demonstrate offical.
Once there was an excellent article about the comparison between the F-22, the Eurofighter, Rafale, Saab Gripen, F-18 and a Russian fighter. According to this study the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10.1:1, the Eurofighter of 4.5:1 etc. pp.
Where is this article?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_21st_century_fighter_aircraft
If I type this in, I got redirected to this utterly useless page.
What happen to the other page?
Why always this deleting of valuable information?
Edit: The best page I could find about the DERA study:
http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/tech.php
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.225.75.5 ( talk) 09:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
How many F-15 with AESA? 18 with V2 experimental RADAR and the V3 is only in Prototyp stage. Now zero series V3 deliverd, up to 48 in the year 2010! More is in time not funded.-- HDP ( talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
All 224 F-15Es and 178 F-15Cs will be getting AESA radars which are in production now. the AMRAAM used in the DERA simulation was a very early model, not AIM-120C or D. Downtrip ( talk) 06:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
First, don't forget, DERA was looking at performance of not only F-22 and Su-35, but a well know by the time of study F-15, F-16, F-18, Rafale. Plus it is really interesting how future was looking in 1994. Second, don't forget, this is article about 4th generation fighters. And history of 4th generation is more then 30 years old! I see no reason why should we remove study, a really famous one and read by virtually anyone who was interested in military aviation. Outdated? I believe this is article that should give reader insights on history of development and performance of 4th generation aircraft. And anyone can see the date of study - it is there in very first sentence. Nothing prevent reader from skipping in case he not interested. But there is lots of people who will find this study interesting. TestPilot 07:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
But DERA is 15 years old. They had no idea what weapons would be used, they had no clue about AESA. The upgraded F-15s, F-16s and F-18s of today are not the same as those simulated in DERA. DERA was also a british study. They don;t know all of the capabilities of the jets being simulated. Also adding it for historical reasons has no place here. This is an encylcopedia and the article is about fighter aircraft in general. Can you find another place where DERA is even mentioned anymore besides the EF website? Banofreep ( talk) 17:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
So now the text gets locked and no one has anything to say? DERA is OLD and irrelevant, no one has refuted this statement and I think DERA should be remove. Banofreep ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I will post below for comment.-- Downtrip ( talk) 03:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that all references to the DERA report should be removed. It is obviously biased, was based on projected capabilities for some of the aircraft (if not most) and have been debunked by real exercised. Take the recent 4 on 4 between the Typhoon and Rafale in the United Arab Emirates that showed the Rafale spanking the Typhoon badly with a 4 to 0 score (see http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-raf-nest-plus-ce-quelle-est.html, in French). The DERA report was speculative and I think that Wikipedia should stick to the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kino french ( talk • contribs) 04:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
The page is now protected until some kind of consensus can be reached. -- Rlandmann ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
JF-17 Thunder has been repeatedly removed from this article. Senior members, please add JF-17 thunder back to the list along with 4.5th generation aircrafts.
Pk-user (
talk) 12:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please modify the statement about the F/A-18F Super Hornet getting a gun kill (Legitmately) on the F-22A Raptor to include the fact that the Super Rhino had violated the Red Air ROE concerning safety in regards to distance and approach speed/vector on friendly aircraft.
http://op-for.com/2007/08/rivalries.html#comments -- unsigned comment by User:TornadoADV— TornadoADV ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
---Then I humbly suggest that the source of contention be removed to avoid issue in the first place concerning such things. Until such a time arrives that such ponderings can be supported by reputable soruces that focus on the subject at hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TornadoADV ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
mig 35 has been featuring in the thrust vectoring engine list again and again, when it was not present in the original article.The thrust vectoring engine of mig 35 depends on customer specification and is not present in the actual model.I feel it must be changed from mig 35 to mig 29 ovt as the picture depicts. Daredevil555 ( talk) 13:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Why isn't the Sukhoi Su-35BM and the F-15 ACTIVE included in this article?-- EZ1234 ( talk) 03:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
There have been numerous and repeated attempts to list the HAL Tejas as a "4.5 gen" aircraft that has entered service. Neither of these are correct. The aircraft is 4th generation (based on simple spec. comparison between it and other 4.5 aircraft) and it will not enter service until 2010. Please correct this in case of future vandalism. -- H2d2 ( talk) 17:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The JF-17 is a 3rd generation aircraft, not fourth. Here are my references to back it up:
[1] From The News, Pakistan: "The JF-17 Thunder is a light combat aircraft, a single-engine fighter with all-weather capability, which Pakistan has developed with the help of the Chinese. It is a *THIRD-GENERATION* fighter that has been so designed that it can take on the fourth-generation fighter aircraft." [The News,Pakistan ^ | 2/8/2008 | Ali Abbas Rizvi ]
[2] From Global Security: "wlet dragon/FC-1 airplane had achieved the *THIRD GENERATION* fighter aircraft synthesis" [4]
I've removed it accordingly. 128.189.137.17 ( talk) 07:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be slightly confused about Chinese aircraft designations which is different for some reason from the rest of the world's. http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/default.asp What is considered '1st and 2nd generation' in the rest of the world is merged into '1st Generation' in China, therefore the 2nd generation in China is considered the 3rd generation in the rest of the world, 3rd is 4th etc. etc. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
With the upgrades to the J-8II to the J-8H and the newly built J-8F variant of the J-8II which have full look-down/shoot-down radar with enhanced ground and naval strike capabilities and is fully BVR capable (PL-11 and PL-12), sources in the Chinese government have stated that the J-8H/F is a multi-role fighter designed as low cost supplement to existing 4th Generation fighters thereby making it a 4th generation fighter (all be it an early 4th generation fighter which is not on par with the J-10 or J-11). To make a comparison, the J-8H/F is similiar to the Panavia Tornado ADV and Mikoyan MiG-31, both dedicated interceptors but with ground attack and air superiority capabilities. So I was wondering if the J-8H/F could also be included inthe list of 4th generation fighters. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j8ii.asp http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j8.asp (please note that I'm not using this as an argument for 'Generations' and its definitions but as an explanation of the development of the J-8 series of fighters from J-8I interceptor to the all weather, multi-role J-8II fighter). Semi-Lobster ( talk) 05:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if the experimental Chengdu J-13 project should be listed in the 'Cancelled Aircraft' section? I know it does not have a page (yet) but neither does ALR Piranha. The J-13 was an ambitious (some say, too amibtious) plan to creat an aircraft to replace the Chengdu J-7 series of light fighters. It was designed to be a high speed, high altitude interceptor fighter that at the same time was supposed to be able to match the MiG-29 and F-16 fighters. Issues over finding a powerful enough engine was the biggest problem. http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/chinese_fighter_development/chinese_fighter_development-6.html Semi-Lobster ( talk) 15:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
The 4th generation list has the Panavia Tornado on the list, shouldn't the Panavia Tornado ADV be listed instead or perhaps both should be listed? The ADV is the dedicated fighter optimised variant of the Tornado afterall, although one can argue that the Tornado is capable enough to warrant its position on the list. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 02:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
In the 'Combat performance' section, it states that the F-16 has had zero air-to-air losses but according to this New York Times article, a Pakistani F-16 was shot down by six Afghan aircraft in 1987. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DD143DF931A35756C0A961948260 Semi-Lobster ( talk) 03:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section for technological demonstrators fromthe 4th and 4.5 generation? They don't really fit into the 'cancelled aircraft' section since they were only designed to display new technologies with some eventually leading to a new service fighter like the British Aerospace EAP or Rockwell-MBB X-31. Should there be a new section for them? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 03:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Should the PZL-230 Skorpion really be on the list for 4th generation fighter aircraft. From what I've read and even from ehat the article states, the PZL-230 Skorpion was to be an attack aircraft, not a fighter. Should it be removed? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 19:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could have a debate about adding the Dassault Super Mirage F8 to the list of fourth generation cancelled aircraft section (with the link going to the Dassault Mirage G page). The F8 was the penultimate design of the Dassault Mirage G which was planned a variable geometry fighter but eventually was set to a fixed winged aircraft after the French Air Force concluded that variable geometry wings and the added weight and maintenace costs outweighted its benefits. The F8 was put forward by Dassault in the early 70s to meet France's 'Avion de combat futur' (ACF) program before the program's costs spiralled out of control and eventually led to the Dassault Mirage 2000. The F8 was designed as a single seat an agile multi-role fighter aircraft powered by twin SNECMA M53 turbofan engines, with a fixed leading edge sweep angle of 55° (which were found to be the best in trials on the Mirage G8), a Cyrano IV multi-purpose radar (BVR capable with look down shoot down capabilities on most models), a low-altitude nav/attack system, a laser rangefinder, Doppler radar and a bombing computer. The project was cancelled with the ACF program in the 1970s and the information gained from its development was used for the Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000. So I was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this aircraft? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 17:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Fnlayson has recently removed the Sukhoi Su-34 from the list of 4.5th generation fighter aircraft, claiming that the aircraft in question is not a fighter aircraft. Most sources, both print and online refer to the Su-34 as a twin seat, heavy fighter-bomber. As we have other twin seat heavy fighter-bomber/strike fighters on the list such as the Dassault Mirage 2000N/2000D and the F-15E Strike Eagle I do not see why the Su-34 should be singled out for removal? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 14:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
First up I wanted to mention the fact I've moved the J-10 and J-11B to the 4th gen list. I don't think they're 4.5 gen. I know design is an issue, but when people talk about generations they normally also talk about what's inside. You need to have both, surely. The J-8 isn't a 4th gen design, even if some planes are being upgraded.
Apart from that I see a massive problem with the article. Most of the aircraft listings are not cited, and indeed the article as a whole has few citations. The lists are also too long.
I would start by cropping all the cancelled aircraft and tech demonstrators. Then we need citations to confirm whether these aircraft are 4th gen or not. I would start from the bottom up, rather than try the hopeless task of getting citations for every one already here. If that's not possible then crop all the lists and just have a few examples. Currently it's an OR nightmare. It says something that the "review" tag seems itself to be horribly out of date. John Smith's ( talk) 13:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
What on earth is going on with the last couple of paragraphs? They seem to have been chucked in at random, from an article that would be better suited to an ametuer defense blog. None of it is cited, quite a lot of it is out of date and most of it is conjecture and fortune-telling. This isn't the 'which fighter is going to beat which' article. I'm removing said paragraphs for being irrelevant, uncited and out of place in this article. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover ( talk) 13:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been busy for a while so I haven't been keeping up with aviation articles but... last month John Smith's seems to have made a litany of rather drastic edits to the article with little to no discussion, or debate? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 18:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Ucucha 13:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Fourth-generation jet fighter →
Fourth generation jet fighter — Hyphen might be unnecessary. —
username 1 (
talk) 21:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's how SAAB separate the generations.
1st generation Includes early jet driven warplanes, such as the Vampire, MiG-15, F-86 and the J29.
2nd generation are jet fighter aircraft were weapons integration and avionic systems was being introduced. This generation involves the MiG-21, F-5 Freedom Fighter, F-4 Phantom, 32 Lansen and J35 Draken
3rd generation are supersonic fighter aircraft with an infrastructure based on separate digital systems, who takes great advantage of computers to achieve functionality. Aircrafts included in this generation are for example the MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000 and the Viggen.
4th generation are supersonic aircrafts with a digitally constructed infrastructure, with fully integrated computerized systems, which uses a common computerbase with a standardized interface. This means that sensors, weapons, control surfaces, control organs, displays and so on can be used as information suppliers and information carriers; offering in theory an infinite number of combinations in which to create the systemfunctions desired. The only limit are the laws of physics and the human being. Included in this generation are, the F-22, F-35, the Rafale, the Eurofighter and the Gripen. The principle structure creates a very high development potential, and has the ability to fully take advantage of future advancements in sensors, weapons and computers and so on. The 4th gen fighter remains young over time. New system functions can be created when there is a need for it, depending on the tactical demands, and the technical development.
That is typical examples for the differences in the definition of jet fighter generations in Europe and the US/Russia.
In Europe aircraft like the F-16 or MiG-29 are classed as 3rd generation, while the same aircraft are classed a 4th generation in the US/Russia. Therefore their successors must belong to the 4th generation in Europe, but 5th generation in the US/Russia. That is the reason why Europeans refer the 4th generation to aircraft like Gripen, Rafale or Eurofighter. That means a European 4th is a US 5th!!!
Actually China uses similiar naming system as European, hence the newest developing model is 4th in Chinese naming system (but 5th in USA labeling system.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.186.243.42 ( talk) 01:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Well it isn't that simple is it? That's the problem. It isn't just about chronological succession and it doesn't imply superiority (in one, or many or all) ways, but is used in marketing. The article needs to reflect the subjectivity of these measures, and the way in which they often reflect a categorisation of threats to what the categorising party possesses and thinks it can counter or otherwise, not an objective set of measures that cannot moreover become outmoded in time. Princeofdelft ( talk) 20:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm an outsider rating this article as I have taken on a few to get the list down. I'm trying to be kind here as it is obvious that there exist a wide range of views to be accomodated. Please try to remember that this is an encyclopedia article and to take a cold hard eye 3rd party view of anything that you write here. I'm an American and I promise you as an American I would hate to see that the F-18 was a markedly inferior platform but if it was, and this is just an example, I would write and support it as so. Please realise that there isn't a defense contractor on the face of the planet that will tell you the truth where there money is. Stay to the cold hard facts and don't make statements that can't be supported with cold hard fact.
Tirronan 21:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Unless the UN weighs in on this, can we use the American legal definition (to be signed tomorrow by BHO) internationally for the list of 4.5 Gen fighters?
I'm still looking for a ref for BVR shots using LPI plus datalink for bolts from the blue. Hcobb ( talk) 23:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
It's ok to use whatever definitions one likes as long as one declares this giving the reader a chance to understand that the American "generations" talk is a way to refer to threats and allies from the point of view of their own perceptions and the decisions taken as to how to equip THEMselves, not some objective "factual" measure of outright superiority. Princeofdelft ( talk) 21:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
It's a very small matter, and doesn't matter enough to have a "debate" over, much less an exchange of louder and louder contradictions, however I have removed the word "American" because it is incidental.
This was undone by Dodger67, who simply contradicted my rationale and accused me of hypocrisy. I contend that firstly, it is not valid to suggest that there is no known design or concept of any kind which possesses low observable characteristics a-la F-22/B2/F-117 per se, which isn't American, and secondly that offhand stating that they are adds an implicit bias that doesn't help. By listing examples, one can easily allow the reader to look into designs and see that they come from America, as well as being able to objectively evaluate new articles they read in the near-future on a case-by-case basis.
Using the label "American" isn't somehow hugely offensive to me or anything, but omitting it doesn't detract from the article at all, and avoids giving the article a shelf-life (that is, it'll be out of date as soon as anyone else has a plane or UAV that has the features being talked about.)
Given that there's very hard evidence that the Nazis already were working on a jet fighter that possessed certain low-observable characteristics;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090625-hitlers-stealth-fighter-plane.html
it seems to me that the suggestion that only an American plane can, today, be "really" stealth is incorrect, and Dodger 67 should have to justify his/her in my view inflammatory rationale before reverting the article, as a matter of principle. I feel my intentions show good faith but I'm willing to listen if that's been taken the wrong way. I do wonder though whether this would be just as acceptable if the aircraft in question had happened to be say, from Albania.
Again, I don't really mind if it is put back, it's one word, but I an dissatisfied with the attitude and wanted to explain myself because this is a much wider problem than the one word, in my view. Cheers everyone, sorry in advance if this seems "highly strung". Call me an idealist maybe. Princeofdelft ( talk) 13:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Asian listism is creeping back into this article, now that there is no longer a "list of" article to haggle over.
Can we cut the examples to two American, two Russian and two other aircraft? Hcobb ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Can we just remove the entire exercise reports section. It's just going to go in the same fanboyish F-15<Rafale<Eurofighter<Su-30MKI<F-15 circle. If information about about aircraft exercises must be included then it should be on individual aircraft articles and should include a non-biased POV. Given the fact that pilot training and technique weigh so heavily on the outcome of these exercises it really isn't even a contest of aircraft. - Nem1yan ( talk) 14:20, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Currently there are only 4th generation aircraft listed. I know we are all trying to avoid making the article too list-like but would adding active 4.5th generation aircraft be objectionable? The Su-35 is listed and it is very much an 4++ generation fighter (if we are to agree on a nebulous, semi-defined definition of a 4++ fighter jet) and so far there have been to objections or edits to it. Semi-Lobster ( talk) 05:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Does the characteristic of a fourth generation fighter jet include a turbofan engine instead of a turbojet engine ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.172.114 ( talk) 01:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. This seems to be uncontroversial. I'll also move the other articles in the category as proposed. Jafeluv ( talk) 08:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Fourth generation jet fighter → Fourth-generation jet fighter – Correct name, as "fourth-generation" is a compound adjective, and consistent with the existing Fifth-generation jet fighter article. Malleus Fatuorum 18:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I believe that the Eurofighter Typhoon should be moved to the 5th Generation article (and defined as 5th Generation in other articles). The criteria defined by Lockheed Martin for a '5th Generation Fighter' shows that the Typhoon meets as many as the F-22 Raptor, and many more than the F-35 Lightning II. Eurofighter themselves class it as 5th Generation, so this should be seriously considered. My supporting documents are as follows:
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/extpub/02_5thGenFighter.pdf
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef_world_2-2011.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lionwarrior82 ( talk • contribs) 17:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
BTW, what's up with "the F-35s will have built-in, PIRATE IRST sensors" in the current text? The F-35 has and will never have PIRATE, as it is a Ninja instead. Hcobb ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Several definition of generations exist, with no consensus on how they should be defined. Hence portraying the USA-manufaturer definitions as a standard is NPOV in addition to lacking a global perspective. /BP 78.70.77.35 ( talk) 19:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
What idiot ranked SU-34/35 as aircraft under development? Both aircraft are in operational use of Russian Air Force, SU-35 (22 aircraft) and Su-34 (31 aircraft). SU-34 is proven in combat in the war in Georgia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.93.243 ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Now it includes a couple conflicts where no planes shot at each other. Do we want it to include only shotdowns or expand it to include every time 4th-gen planes fly over hostile ground (maybe dropped bombs, maybe dodged SA fire, maybe just went cruising)? Rmhermen ( talk) 16:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Recently, an unregistered contributor User:218.186.15.10 has made several, unilateral, sweeping edits to the tables on the fighter aircraft generation pages. What is the general consensus on these changes? Semi-Lobster ( talk) 14:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Why are we allowing a photo of this fighter to be present in the 4th generation fighter page? India's own Air Marshall has labeled this fighter a "generation 3++" fighter, which in and of itself is already a clear and rather embarrassing admission of the true quality of this fighter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.122.59 ( talk) 07:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Why are we adding the "th" after "4.5"? It's not as if we are pronouncing it "four point fifth", (which would actually be written as "4.2"). It's silly, needless and doesn't make sense. It should simply be "4.5 generation". As in, between the "fourth (4th) generation" and "fifth (5th) generation", is the "four point five (4.5) generation". Can we drop the "th"? - theWOLFchild 01:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Sections of this article seem poorly sourced, such as the whole section on Performance, which is 580 words of high-density information with exactly zero citations. Is this original research? I'd like to know where I can confirm the information presented. 97.98.13.107 ( talk) 21:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
In this section "Fourth-generation jet fighters compared" another coloumn named "Per unit Cost" can be added. Sometimes 'cost' acts as an overall parameter to simply measure the overall worth of any item. Ahmedafifkhan ( talk) 10:37, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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