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I want to open up a discussion about the introduction, which I think has gotten much more comprehensive but is now straying into territory where it is too complicated for the average non-specialist reader and is not really recognizable as what is presented as the Four Noble Truths in most secondary and tertiary literature (as well as the primary sources). Proposed re-work of the opening couple paragraphs is below- I'm not at all opposed to restoring some of the references or footnotes where relevant, but I do think that the more detailed discussion needs to be kept in the body of the article to comply with WP:LEDE. Please comment, edit or propose alternatives as needed- I have a copy of my version on my sandbox.
1. Suffering(dukkha): Existence is characterized by dukkha, suffering or 'unsatisfactoriness'. Birth, aging, death, sickness, separation from what is desired, association with the unwanted and the Five Aggregates are all aspects of dukkha. [1]
2. Arising(samudaya): Suffering arises due to attachment or craving ( tanha). This includes both attachment to what is desired and seeking to avoid what is undesired, all of which is rooted in attachment to the self and the desire for further existence. [1]
3. Cessation(nirodha): It is possible to make an end of dukkha through the fading and cessation and craving and desire. [1] [2] [note 1] This is the attainment of nirvana, whereafter birth and the accompanying dukkha will no longer arise again. [note 2] [3]
4. The Path(marga): This can be accomplished by following the eightfold path, [note 3], specifically by restraining oneself, cultivating discipline and wholesome states, and practicing mindfulness and dhyana. [4] [5]As the "Four Noble Truths" ( Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni), they are "the truths of the Noble Ones," [6] the truths or realities which are understood by the "worthy ones" [web 1] who have attained nirvana. [7] [web 1]
References
-- Spasemunki ( talk) 06:46, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
The lead should summarize the main article, its most important contents with appropriate weight. Our old April/May 2017 lead versions were better because it reflected the main article and the vast majority of mainstream peer-reviewed scholarly sources. See, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica on 4NT, any secondary source and any tertiary/encyclopedia on Buddhism (such as by Buswell etc). I will check these sources again and restore a bit to the lead where appropriate in the coming days. Comments and concerns are welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:29, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Early Buddhist teachings bypass these problems by focusing on the fact of suffering (or unsatisfactoriness: dukkha), and the possibility of its cessation (dukkha-nirodha). In this elegant scheme, spiritual practice is a form of mindful introspection: by paying close attention to experience, and keeping guard over the likes and dislikes that pull one into it, the painful experience of conditioned reality unravels by itself.
Copied from User talk:Dharmalion76#WP:UGC
Hi Dharmalion76. Blogs by single persons are not WP:UGC. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Dharmalion76: rgerading the vents so far:
Blog is WP:UGC and not a recognized expert
blog by single person, not UCG; and a see also link, not a reference
Reverted good faith edits by Joshua Jonathan (talk): WP:RSSELF not an expert
WP:RSSELF, just like WP:UGC, is about sources; this is not a source or reference, but a note, giving a link to additional info; David Chapman is quite usefull in this regard. David Chapman is a noted blogger on Buddhism; his series on the origins of western Buddhism caused quite a stir in Dutch (Zen) Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:04, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Sukusala: you can discuss your objections here. You removed large amounts of sourced info twice; you even altered straight quotes. That's a no-go. And nu, dukkha is not "always" translated as "suffering"; that's an outdated and inadequate translation. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:08, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
dukkha means 'the type of dukkha that arises when there is tanha.' [...] Sometimes, for example, dukkha is used for bodily pain.- yes, good point; "unsatisfactoriness" applies to some forms of 'the type of dukkha that arises when there is tanha', though maybe not all; in the case of old age, sickness and death, "aversion" may be the best translation/interpretation. In the case of the five aggregates, "unsatisfactoriness" may be better, while in the case of gain and loss, maybe "remorse" may be best. Good point to think about further; it's really relevant. I never really figured out the birth-old age-sickness-death sequence, since this is literal suffering; but the aversion to, and lamentation of, these processes is indeeddukkha. Sanskrit/Pali is different form modern English; we're accustomed to precise meanings, but the suttas seem to 'work' in a different way, much more contextual, and using 'implicit' knowledge and understanding. Again, this is a good pit to discuss further.
I have read over and over that "desire is an inaccurate translation of tanha- that it is not desire but a specific KIND of desire: craving, thirst, attachment, "self-centered" or "selfish" desire.
This page has a few references to primary Buddhist sources which say there is a difference. [ [1]].
This distinction is talked about in the Tanha article.
I propose we take out the word "desire" out of the lead and let this nuance be dealt with in the Tanha article or in the 2nd Noble Truth article. Sethie ( talk) 18:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).
Cite error: There are <ref group=web>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=web}}
template (see the
help page).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Four Noble Truths article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I want to open up a discussion about the introduction, which I think has gotten much more comprehensive but is now straying into territory where it is too complicated for the average non-specialist reader and is not really recognizable as what is presented as the Four Noble Truths in most secondary and tertiary literature (as well as the primary sources). Proposed re-work of the opening couple paragraphs is below- I'm not at all opposed to restoring some of the references or footnotes where relevant, but I do think that the more detailed discussion needs to be kept in the body of the article to comply with WP:LEDE. Please comment, edit or propose alternatives as needed- I have a copy of my version on my sandbox.
1. Suffering(dukkha): Existence is characterized by dukkha, suffering or 'unsatisfactoriness'. Birth, aging, death, sickness, separation from what is desired, association with the unwanted and the Five Aggregates are all aspects of dukkha. [1]
2. Arising(samudaya): Suffering arises due to attachment or craving ( tanha). This includes both attachment to what is desired and seeking to avoid what is undesired, all of which is rooted in attachment to the self and the desire for further existence. [1]
3. Cessation(nirodha): It is possible to make an end of dukkha through the fading and cessation and craving and desire. [1] [2] [note 1] This is the attainment of nirvana, whereafter birth and the accompanying dukkha will no longer arise again. [note 2] [3]
4. The Path(marga): This can be accomplished by following the eightfold path, [note 3], specifically by restraining oneself, cultivating discipline and wholesome states, and practicing mindfulness and dhyana. [4] [5]As the "Four Noble Truths" ( Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni), they are "the truths of the Noble Ones," [6] the truths or realities which are understood by the "worthy ones" [web 1] who have attained nirvana. [7] [web 1]
References
-- Spasemunki ( talk) 06:46, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
The lead should summarize the main article, its most important contents with appropriate weight. Our old April/May 2017 lead versions were better because it reflected the main article and the vast majority of mainstream peer-reviewed scholarly sources. See, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica on 4NT, any secondary source and any tertiary/encyclopedia on Buddhism (such as by Buswell etc). I will check these sources again and restore a bit to the lead where appropriate in the coming days. Comments and concerns are welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:29, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Early Buddhist teachings bypass these problems by focusing on the fact of suffering (or unsatisfactoriness: dukkha), and the possibility of its cessation (dukkha-nirodha). In this elegant scheme, spiritual practice is a form of mindful introspection: by paying close attention to experience, and keeping guard over the likes and dislikes that pull one into it, the painful experience of conditioned reality unravels by itself.
Copied from User talk:Dharmalion76#WP:UGC
Hi Dharmalion76. Blogs by single persons are not WP:UGC. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Dharmalion76: rgerading the vents so far:
Blog is WP:UGC and not a recognized expert
blog by single person, not UCG; and a see also link, not a reference
Reverted good faith edits by Joshua Jonathan (talk): WP:RSSELF not an expert
WP:RSSELF, just like WP:UGC, is about sources; this is not a source or reference, but a note, giving a link to additional info; David Chapman is quite usefull in this regard. David Chapman is a noted blogger on Buddhism; his series on the origins of western Buddhism caused quite a stir in Dutch (Zen) Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:04, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Sukusala: you can discuss your objections here. You removed large amounts of sourced info twice; you even altered straight quotes. That's a no-go. And nu, dukkha is not "always" translated as "suffering"; that's an outdated and inadequate translation. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:08, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
dukkha means 'the type of dukkha that arises when there is tanha.' [...] Sometimes, for example, dukkha is used for bodily pain.- yes, good point; "unsatisfactoriness" applies to some forms of 'the type of dukkha that arises when there is tanha', though maybe not all; in the case of old age, sickness and death, "aversion" may be the best translation/interpretation. In the case of the five aggregates, "unsatisfactoriness" may be better, while in the case of gain and loss, maybe "remorse" may be best. Good point to think about further; it's really relevant. I never really figured out the birth-old age-sickness-death sequence, since this is literal suffering; but the aversion to, and lamentation of, these processes is indeeddukkha. Sanskrit/Pali is different form modern English; we're accustomed to precise meanings, but the suttas seem to 'work' in a different way, much more contextual, and using 'implicit' knowledge and understanding. Again, this is a good pit to discuss further.
I have read over and over that "desire is an inaccurate translation of tanha- that it is not desire but a specific KIND of desire: craving, thirst, attachment, "self-centered" or "selfish" desire.
This page has a few references to primary Buddhist sources which say there is a difference. [ [1]].
This distinction is talked about in the Tanha article.
I propose we take out the word "desire" out of the lead and let this nuance be dealt with in the Tanha article or in the 2nd Noble Truth article. Sethie ( talk) 18:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).
Cite error: There are <ref group=web>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=web}}
template (see the
help page).