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Four ball is a very popular carom game played in Korea. Even though I can't find an English webpage that explains how to play (an indication the game may not be popular among English speakers), I feel the game should be documented in wikipedia.
I can attest that the game is played in the US, as I know it's played in a pool hall in Boston that has carom tables.
I'd like to gather up all the information I have on Four Ball (hopefully by finding a set of rules from a book) and write up a new article. Any objections or thoughts from other people before I move forward?
Note that it's a *carom* game, not to be confused with "American Four-Ball Billiards". The following quote from the Billiard Congress of America website explains American Four-Ball Billiards:
The dominant American billiard game until the 1870’s was American Four-Ball Billiards, usually played on a large (11 or 12-foot), four-pocket table with four balls - two white and two red.
fyi: The game is played with two red balls and two white (cue) balls. One of the white balls is spotted or yellow to differentiate it from the other.
Thanks everyone.-- PaulLopez 04:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have come across this game as well in an old rule book that went with our family's table. It's referenced, but anything else I have been able to find is that it essentially died out in American sport. If this section can be expanded or anyone has more information. I found it online: Pages 9, 10. http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/rules_1914tpr.pdf 3:43PM 5/1/20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.157.15 ( talk) 19:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
While stationed in Korea, I played Four Ball at the rec room on post. I know that the way I was taught by the local Koreans, your cue ball had to strike both red balls without hitting the opponent's cue. We played to a predetermined point level at which time, we had to "3 cushion" to win (cue ball has to touch 3 cushions before striking the final red ball). This may have been a local variant.
The above rule does not apply to Yotsudama played in Japan. So the description in the "the Asian Version" section of the article is also inaccurate, because the rules explained here are for the Korean Four-ball, and not for the Japanese Four-ball, or Yotsudama. The Japanese rules (as myself, a Tokyo resident, and my friends play) are pretty much described in the header of this article --"The game is played on a pocketless table with four balls, usually one light red, one dark red, and two whites (or just two reds and two whites). Each player is assigned one of the white balls as his own cue ball. A point is scored when a shooter caroms on any two other balls. Two points are scored when the player caroms on each o2f the three other balls." --Only the points are counted differently, two when a shooter caroms on a red ball and a white (opponent's cue) ball, three points when a shooter caroms on two red balls, and five points when the player caroms on each of the three balls.
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
The aforementioned Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules are described in a Japanese billiards handbook I own, titled Biliyaado Nyumon (Billiards Guidebook), published from Kinensha in 1986 (ISBN4-321-25422-1).
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
So practically there is nothing unique with the Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules compared with Robert Froeschle's definition of the Four-ball except for its scoring system. Also the official scoring system has altered in the eighties so that all three types of caroms score only one point equally. But fans who still play this game in Japan tend to use the old 2-3-5 scoring system.
In the website dadamaster has referred to within the "Merge Proposal" section (
http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/choes/etc/billiards/danggu.html), the author of the website points out that the Korean Four-ball rule is similar to a local rule of the Japanese Four-ball called "Aka-aka ge-emu" (red-red game) in which you can only score by caroming red balls. But I have never been aware of such rule until I read this article so maybe it was something that was known when Four-ball or Yotsudama still used be a favorite game among billiard players in Japan. It has given away its position quite some time ago to Pocket billiards and Three-cushion billiards.
Shonuffyo (
talk)
10:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
It's very clear from the description of the balls that "Four-ball version 2" is yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 14:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I can find precisely zero evidence that four-ball and yotsudama are not the same game. Merging the latter into the former is thus called for (and not the other way around, per WP naming conventions - prefer English-language names over foreign terms.) Followup discussion should happen at Talk:Four ball not Talk:Yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 08:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone create redirect pages from the following terms to this article? "Korean Pool", "Korean Billiard", "Korean Billiards", "Danggu"
{{
r from alternative capitalization}}
on the redirect. But it should also redirect from the name
Korean billiards. Both should have {{
r from subtopic}}
and {{
r to section}}
and link to the section. "
Korean pool" is actually wrong, as this is not a
pool (pocket billiards) game at all, and should not redirect here, nor as "
Korean Pool"; both of those should remain redlinks unless and until we have an article on something called "Korean pool". "
Korean billiard" and "
Korean Billiard" (the latter with {{r from alternative capitalization}}
) are also technically wrong, because "billiard" is not used in the singular this way in English. However, given the difficulty many English-as-a-second-language learners have with plurals in English, they'd be okay as redirects marked with {{
r from misspelling}}
, as well as {{r from subtopic}}
and {{r to section}}
.
Danggu should definitely redirect here, with both of the latter redirect categorization templates. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼
01:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the pages, per the discussion below. Help requested on redirecting redirects. Dekimasu よ! 05:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
– There are (so far) six things to disambiguate, and none of them but the mathematical usage have consistent spellings in the real world, so the WP:DIFFPUNCT analysis fails - we cannot disambiguate simply by tweaking spacing, spelling, capitalization or other style. Thus Four-ball should be a disambiguation page, with Four-Ball, Fourball, Four ball, Four Ball, 4-ball, 4-Ball, 4 ball and 4 Ball being redirects to it. Various incoming links, redirects, and disambiguation hatnotes will need to be cleaned up, post-move. The odd "fourball" spelling of one of these pages is normalized to standard English "four-ball", well attested in sources. [8] [9]. The other forms ("4 Ball golf", etc.) are not acceptable per MOS:NUM, MOS:HYPHEN, MOS:CAPS, as applicable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
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Four ball is a very popular carom game played in Korea. Even though I can't find an English webpage that explains how to play (an indication the game may not be popular among English speakers), I feel the game should be documented in wikipedia.
I can attest that the game is played in the US, as I know it's played in a pool hall in Boston that has carom tables.
I'd like to gather up all the information I have on Four Ball (hopefully by finding a set of rules from a book) and write up a new article. Any objections or thoughts from other people before I move forward?
Note that it's a *carom* game, not to be confused with "American Four-Ball Billiards". The following quote from the Billiard Congress of America website explains American Four-Ball Billiards:
The dominant American billiard game until the 1870’s was American Four-Ball Billiards, usually played on a large (11 or 12-foot), four-pocket table with four balls - two white and two red.
fyi: The game is played with two red balls and two white (cue) balls. One of the white balls is spotted or yellow to differentiate it from the other.
Thanks everyone.-- PaulLopez 04:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have come across this game as well in an old rule book that went with our family's table. It's referenced, but anything else I have been able to find is that it essentially died out in American sport. If this section can be expanded or anyone has more information. I found it online: Pages 9, 10. http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/rules_1914tpr.pdf 3:43PM 5/1/20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.157.15 ( talk) 19:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
While stationed in Korea, I played Four Ball at the rec room on post. I know that the way I was taught by the local Koreans, your cue ball had to strike both red balls without hitting the opponent's cue. We played to a predetermined point level at which time, we had to "3 cushion" to win (cue ball has to touch 3 cushions before striking the final red ball). This may have been a local variant.
The above rule does not apply to Yotsudama played in Japan. So the description in the "the Asian Version" section of the article is also inaccurate, because the rules explained here are for the Korean Four-ball, and not for the Japanese Four-ball, or Yotsudama. The Japanese rules (as myself, a Tokyo resident, and my friends play) are pretty much described in the header of this article --"The game is played on a pocketless table with four balls, usually one light red, one dark red, and two whites (or just two reds and two whites). Each player is assigned one of the white balls as his own cue ball. A point is scored when a shooter caroms on any two other balls. Two points are scored when the player caroms on each o2f the three other balls." --Only the points are counted differently, two when a shooter caroms on a red ball and a white (opponent's cue) ball, three points when a shooter caroms on two red balls, and five points when the player caroms on each of the three balls.
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
The aforementioned Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules are described in a Japanese billiards handbook I own, titled Biliyaado Nyumon (Billiards Guidebook), published from Kinensha in 1986 (ISBN4-321-25422-1).
Shonuffyo (
talk) 07:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
So practically there is nothing unique with the Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules compared with Robert Froeschle's definition of the Four-ball except for its scoring system. Also the official scoring system has altered in the eighties so that all three types of caroms score only one point equally. But fans who still play this game in Japan tend to use the old 2-3-5 scoring system.
In the website dadamaster has referred to within the "Merge Proposal" section (
http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/choes/etc/billiards/danggu.html), the author of the website points out that the Korean Four-ball rule is similar to a local rule of the Japanese Four-ball called "Aka-aka ge-emu" (red-red game) in which you can only score by caroming red balls. But I have never been aware of such rule until I read this article so maybe it was something that was known when Four-ball or Yotsudama still used be a favorite game among billiard players in Japan. It has given away its position quite some time ago to Pocket billiards and Three-cushion billiards.
Shonuffyo (
talk)
10:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
It's very clear from the description of the balls that "Four-ball version 2" is yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 14:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I can find precisely zero evidence that four-ball and yotsudama are not the same game. Merging the latter into the former is thus called for (and not the other way around, per WP naming conventions - prefer English-language names over foreign terms.) Followup discussion should happen at Talk:Four ball not Talk:Yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 08:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone create redirect pages from the following terms to this article? "Korean Pool", "Korean Billiard", "Korean Billiards", "Danggu"
{{
r from alternative capitalization}}
on the redirect. But it should also redirect from the name
Korean billiards. Both should have {{
r from subtopic}}
and {{
r to section}}
and link to the section. "
Korean pool" is actually wrong, as this is not a
pool (pocket billiards) game at all, and should not redirect here, nor as "
Korean Pool"; both of those should remain redlinks unless and until we have an article on something called "Korean pool". "
Korean billiard" and "
Korean Billiard" (the latter with {{r from alternative capitalization}}
) are also technically wrong, because "billiard" is not used in the singular this way in English. However, given the difficulty many English-as-a-second-language learners have with plurals in English, they'd be okay as redirects marked with {{
r from misspelling}}
, as well as {{r from subtopic}}
and {{r to section}}
.
Danggu should definitely redirect here, with both of the latter redirect categorization templates. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼
01:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the pages, per the discussion below. Help requested on redirecting redirects. Dekimasu よ! 05:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
– There are (so far) six things to disambiguate, and none of them but the mathematical usage have consistent spellings in the real world, so the WP:DIFFPUNCT analysis fails - we cannot disambiguate simply by tweaking spacing, spelling, capitalization or other style. Thus Four-ball should be a disambiguation page, with Four-Ball, Fourball, Four ball, Four Ball, 4-ball, 4-Ball, 4 ball and 4 Ball being redirects to it. Various incoming links, redirects, and disambiguation hatnotes will need to be cleaned up, post-move. The odd "fourball" spelling of one of these pages is normalized to standard English "four-ball", well attested in sources. [8] [9]. The other forms ("4 Ball golf", etc.) are not acceptable per MOS:NUM, MOS:HYPHEN, MOS:CAPS, as applicable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)