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External links do not need to meet the same criteria as primary sources. Wnjr ( talk) 16:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
does anyone else think there should be talk of fitwatch and possibly a link as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.77.44 ( talk) 15:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be something of an edit war going on in the external links section, with out any discussion or attempt to reach consensus on the talk page. Most of this has concerned sources that are clearly written by either people who come into conflict with FIT teams as protestors, or have clear sympathy with them, such as Schnews, Alan Lodge and FitWatch. I think these should be restored. Wikipedia:External_links#What_to_link does not say that all POV links should be removed, only that we should strive for balance. Indeed the article linked as a reference is clearly POV, as can be seen from the police.uk address.
I added links yesterday to articles from well known British publications that describe the FIT, and are much more recent than the other articles. These are not self published articles and not from publications with a clear anti-police POV, but even these were removed without explanation, this time by Police,Mad,Jack.
What's the reason for removing these useful resources that will help anyone who wants learn about the FIT from this page? Sorsoup ( talk) 11:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could do with some more work. I think FITwatch should definitely stay in the article - at the very least it's a large resource of images of FITs. I've added some more info and added that they have been active since at least 1996. Another article about them is dated 1995 but I'm not sure if this is a reliable source. It would be good if there was a section on any positive work that they have done to counter the "Controversies" section. Anybody know of anything that FITs have helped stop or of anyone arrested as a consequence of their intelligence gathering? Smartse ( talk) 17:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not doing an official GA review or anything, I just noticed this and wanted to point out that the External Links section can use some cleanup. Many of the ELs appear to be news stories or articles, which seem like they would be more appropriate as references rather than ELs. The EL section is generally reserved for broad websites or information sources. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 14:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Some red links have been added to the article - I don't think that most are necessary. Marc Vallee may just about pass WP:N but Linda Catt and Andrew Wood (activist) probably both fall under WP:BLP1E and so would not merit their own articles. Similarly any information that can be found on Fitwatch should be included in this article - if you can find more about them from reliable sources then please add it - I've spent quite a while looking and I think that any reliable sources are already included in the article. Please prove me wrong if you can! Smartse ( talk) 15:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm having to change quite a lot of non-neutral language used by (e.g.) the police themselves, such as restrain, instead of "bind or tie-up" etc. I even had one case of "strapping" instead of "straps"! Let's stick to the plain English versions, please, and leave the jargon to (e.g.) the Home Office. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basingwerk ( talk • contribs) 13:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
On the other hand, "neutral" is hard to define. Is "straps" really more neutral than "strapping", and is "bind" really more neutral than "restrain"? "Binding someone with black straps" sounds factual to the victim, while "restraining someone with strapping" makes it sound civilised. What was done was neutrally barbaric, and the language should say that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basingwerk ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Your job is to tell the trust, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; not to tone things down to make them "sound" civilised. "Restrain" is true, nothing but true, BUT it is not the WHOLE truth. The whole truth is that straps were used, and the article must specifically say straps to convey the whole truth. Please put it back. Thanks.
Restraint is longer than strap, so in this case, it is shorter to tell the whole truth. But I'm feeling generous, today, for some reason, and I can see you're a good chap. Let's leave it be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.48.80 ( talk) 14:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I put in "held against their will" because some geezer objected to "imprisoned". Remand is a legal word that does not convey the loss of freedom suffered by these women, for asking coppers for their ID - a reasonable request in any reasonable country. Obvious, disgusting behavior should be described, not in legal terms that make it appear reasonable, but in terms that describe the hideousness of the act properly to the reader. Thus "held against their will" is a good substitute, IMHO.
The police are not required to wear epaulettes by anyone - they may be supposed to but they don't have to. See Chapter 6 of this report out yesterday. Smartse ( talk) 15:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
If only that were true. The Home Office have recently decreed that all officers (met and elsewhere) MUST show their shoulder numbers, see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1170963/Maybe-just-forgot-Scotland-Yards-incredible-excuse-police-officer-spotted-ID-street-protest.html. There is nothing ambiguous here - the Home Office has insisted that they have to do it, come what may. The Home Office says MUST, and that trumps the report. Sorry.
OK, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on those FIT guys. But if I find any evidence that coppers knew they must wear their badges , I'll be back to fix this, Smartse... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.48.80 ( talk) 14:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.134.20 ( talk) 20:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to dispute "Despite the implication in the name that their function is to gather intelligence, they are intended to have more of a deterrent effect", because the source it relies upon is an article on the use of FITs in a certain situation, not the use of FITs in general. ninety: one 22:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I've moved all the info under Controversies into several different sections. Having this section isn't very neutral and in actual fact a lot of it isn't really controversial anyway. I think that the criticism section could be reorganised anyway and made more neutral. Any help would be appreciated. Smartse ( talk) 04:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the two women arrested for no reason at the 2008 Climate Camp who made a complaint to the IPCC, what happened in that case? 85.210.156.251 ( talk) 05:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Forward intelligence team article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Forward intelligence team has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
External links do not need to meet the same criteria as primary sources. Wnjr ( talk) 16:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
does anyone else think there should be talk of fitwatch and possibly a link as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.77.44 ( talk) 15:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be something of an edit war going on in the external links section, with out any discussion or attempt to reach consensus on the talk page. Most of this has concerned sources that are clearly written by either people who come into conflict with FIT teams as protestors, or have clear sympathy with them, such as Schnews, Alan Lodge and FitWatch. I think these should be restored. Wikipedia:External_links#What_to_link does not say that all POV links should be removed, only that we should strive for balance. Indeed the article linked as a reference is clearly POV, as can be seen from the police.uk address.
I added links yesterday to articles from well known British publications that describe the FIT, and are much more recent than the other articles. These are not self published articles and not from publications with a clear anti-police POV, but even these were removed without explanation, this time by Police,Mad,Jack.
What's the reason for removing these useful resources that will help anyone who wants learn about the FIT from this page? Sorsoup ( talk) 11:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could do with some more work. I think FITwatch should definitely stay in the article - at the very least it's a large resource of images of FITs. I've added some more info and added that they have been active since at least 1996. Another article about them is dated 1995 but I'm not sure if this is a reliable source. It would be good if there was a section on any positive work that they have done to counter the "Controversies" section. Anybody know of anything that FITs have helped stop or of anyone arrested as a consequence of their intelligence gathering? Smartse ( talk) 17:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not doing an official GA review or anything, I just noticed this and wanted to point out that the External Links section can use some cleanup. Many of the ELs appear to be news stories or articles, which seem like they would be more appropriate as references rather than ELs. The EL section is generally reserved for broad websites or information sources. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 14:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Some red links have been added to the article - I don't think that most are necessary. Marc Vallee may just about pass WP:N but Linda Catt and Andrew Wood (activist) probably both fall under WP:BLP1E and so would not merit their own articles. Similarly any information that can be found on Fitwatch should be included in this article - if you can find more about them from reliable sources then please add it - I've spent quite a while looking and I think that any reliable sources are already included in the article. Please prove me wrong if you can! Smartse ( talk) 15:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm having to change quite a lot of non-neutral language used by (e.g.) the police themselves, such as restrain, instead of "bind or tie-up" etc. I even had one case of "strapping" instead of "straps"! Let's stick to the plain English versions, please, and leave the jargon to (e.g.) the Home Office. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basingwerk ( talk • contribs) 13:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
On the other hand, "neutral" is hard to define. Is "straps" really more neutral than "strapping", and is "bind" really more neutral than "restrain"? "Binding someone with black straps" sounds factual to the victim, while "restraining someone with strapping" makes it sound civilised. What was done was neutrally barbaric, and the language should say that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basingwerk ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Your job is to tell the trust, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; not to tone things down to make them "sound" civilised. "Restrain" is true, nothing but true, BUT it is not the WHOLE truth. The whole truth is that straps were used, and the article must specifically say straps to convey the whole truth. Please put it back. Thanks.
Restraint is longer than strap, so in this case, it is shorter to tell the whole truth. But I'm feeling generous, today, for some reason, and I can see you're a good chap. Let's leave it be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.48.80 ( talk) 14:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I put in "held against their will" because some geezer objected to "imprisoned". Remand is a legal word that does not convey the loss of freedom suffered by these women, for asking coppers for their ID - a reasonable request in any reasonable country. Obvious, disgusting behavior should be described, not in legal terms that make it appear reasonable, but in terms that describe the hideousness of the act properly to the reader. Thus "held against their will" is a good substitute, IMHO.
The police are not required to wear epaulettes by anyone - they may be supposed to but they don't have to. See Chapter 6 of this report out yesterday. Smartse ( talk) 15:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
If only that were true. The Home Office have recently decreed that all officers (met and elsewhere) MUST show their shoulder numbers, see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1170963/Maybe-just-forgot-Scotland-Yards-incredible-excuse-police-officer-spotted-ID-street-protest.html. There is nothing ambiguous here - the Home Office has insisted that they have to do it, come what may. The Home Office says MUST, and that trumps the report. Sorry.
OK, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on those FIT guys. But if I find any evidence that coppers knew they must wear their badges , I'll be back to fix this, Smartse... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.48.80 ( talk) 14:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.134.20 ( talk) 20:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to dispute "Despite the implication in the name that their function is to gather intelligence, they are intended to have more of a deterrent effect", because the source it relies upon is an article on the use of FITs in a certain situation, not the use of FITs in general. ninety: one 22:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I've moved all the info under Controversies into several different sections. Having this section isn't very neutral and in actual fact a lot of it isn't really controversial anyway. I think that the criticism section could be reorganised anyway and made more neutral. Any help would be appreciated. Smartse ( talk) 04:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the two women arrested for no reason at the 2008 Climate Camp who made a complaint to the IPCC, what happened in that case? 85.210.156.251 ( talk) 05:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
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