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The Fusion and Mutiny played more games than are listed on this page. Their rivalry lasted from 1998-2001. KitHutch ( talk) 19:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Any thought to expanding this rivalry to include its pre-history, the 1975 and 1976 NASL Seasons when the Rowdies played against the Miami Toros, who would become the the Strikers? If we are including MLS matches, this notion would also seem logical to me. Cheers to all! - Creativewill ( talk) 20:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I know there's been a lot of earnest work here, but the premise appears to be entirely original research. It combines information and scores for every team from the two metropolitan areas, whether there was any real connection or not. The original Tampa Bay Rowdies were not related to the Tampa Bay Mutiny or the modern Tampa Bay Rowdies/FC Tampa Bay. The original Fort Lauderdale Strikers/Miami Toros were not related to the second Fort Lauderdale Strikers, the Miami Fusion, or the third Fort Lauderdale Strikers/Miami FC. And of course several of those were named for or played in Miami rather than Fort Lauderdale. I doubt that any source outside of Wikipedia has ever pulled them all together like this. Most of the sources used here are either self-published blogs, or they just give information on individual teams or games; they don't make a claim about an overall rivalry lasting since the 1970s. Unfortunately, this article may need a total reshifting in focus to keep it.-- CĂșchullain t/ c 15:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
NO RELIABLE SOURCES, YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT? Since when are the Sun Sentinal, Evening Independent, Lakeland Ledger, Boca Raton News, Miami Herald, St. Pete Times, and NASL.com considered blogs and/or unreliable? Specifically, please review the following articles: http://nasl.com/index.php?id=3&newsid=5582 - http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2001-05-18/sports/0105180140_1_fusion-tampa-bay-mutiny-florida-derby - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L0xQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rlgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7005,1868793&dq=striker+likers+soccer&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9cUxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jo0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6578,1728637&dq=striker+likers+soccer&hl=en - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MH&s_site=miami&p_multi=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB337A6B03FC5B9&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM - http://www.tampabay.com/sports/soccer/tampa-bay-rowdies-beat-fort-lauderdale-strikers-3-1/1227584 -I forgot to mention, that the current coach Ricky Hill was also an APSL Rowdie who in the lead-up to each tie, talks about how the rivalry was in his playing era. I can tell you that I began working to clean up this page last August after realizing that some of the info was obviously inaccurate. As I began making those corrections with citations, I stumbled upon more information that ran contrary to the wiki-article's content and needed either correcting, verifying or clarifying. In general the article needed polishing, so I polished. Again I will refer you to the Portland-Seattle rivalry page which is almost identical in scope and nature, yet no one seems to be questioning its validity as a derby. The only difference that I can see is that since it's now in MLS, it currently occupies a bigger stage. By the way, it has only been played 84 times to the Florida Derby's 98 meetings. Regards - Creativewill ( talk) 15:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. it also states Sometimes non-neutral sources are good sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.
While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific
context. On the other hand, an
opinion in a reliable source is still an opinion, rather than a fact. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use...
The only bias in the NASL article is that they are talking about teams from their own league, that's it (and that's probably why they barely mentioned one of two the MLS teams in the piece). I assume they didn't make up those stats or those quotes. The stats are facts, the quotes from Hill and Hudson are the opinion of the two former players/coaches, not the league. Of course NASL.com is going to discuss topics germane to their own league, but that's not a bias that would make the story unreliable. Or -by that convoluted logic you are could also suggest that any sports league's coverage of a trade, a game, or a player signing w/in that league would also be biased and there-by unreliable. How is that any different than a bias shown by any local reporter giving his team/local stories more coverage than a stories in another market? Most of the other articles that I mentioned in my last post were written within the context of "the match at hand" and added things to the effect of ...it's no different than when Team A and B played 5 years ago... or back when his father played in the rivalry... or back when the coaches were players in the rivalry, etc.
If as you seem to infer, this rivalry doesn't exist, then why do journalists keep mentioning it? Why do so many reporters include it in their stories when teams from these two regions of Florida play soccer? All of these people (who lived it) sure seem to remember something having happened relative to the game-day intensity level compared to other matches. So either it's an ongoing rivalry from the mid 1970s or 38 years of intensely fought coincidences, in association football, between several different squads from the same two regions of Florida, that keeps getting brought up by media types and former players from the two regions. Finally I'll ask you again to comment about the difference between this page and the alleged (by your standards)
Portland-Seattle rivalry, because most everything I read about that derby, seems to stem from the two local media markets or the "biased" MLS. Moreover that page discusses their rivalry in almost the exact same context as FtL-TB (i.e. NASL, ASL, MLS, etc.) including the gaps. Even their opening reads nearly identical to the FtL-TB page. -
Creativewill (
talk)
08:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
...reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific
context... When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Does NASL.com have a reputation/history of NOT fact-checking that you're unaware of?
As far as this page being "MY CLAIMS" about a rivalry. I would kindly ask you to remember that I DID NOT create this page. I only improved an existing page by citing sources and correcting errors as I discovered them, as would any other editor. To be honest, I resent such a dismissive and condescending choice of words. All of that not withstanding, am I to understand that you're saying that the NASL.com article needs some sort of all-inclusive reference (rather than the numerous smaller ones it clearly already has) to back up ITS assertion of an ongoing rivalry between the clubs of the 2 regions over time... else it just stands as hyperbole put out by the league's PR machine? As I see it, the numerous np stories that have brought up the rivalry as it pertained to now (whenever "now" was at press time) and its past (before "now" at that particular press time) lend a lot more support to NASL.com's claims than yours. There are youtube videos of people discussing the rivalry, in great detail in terms of then and now.
[1] and
[2] Alas, since Ken Burns clearly wasn't the director of these, how can they be trusted?
The fact of the matter is that most of your initial claims (like game locations) have been debunked. Your claim that this was ENTIRELY original research is also wrong. I will agree that there is probably no source outside of wikipedia that covers this particular topic in this much detail, but the same could be said of a great many other wikipedia pages (the Portland-Seattle rivalry page comes to mind). As I'm sure you know, because editors build on the work of previous editors, this becomes a defacto aspect of wikipedia in general. It is not unique to the page in question, nor should it indict the page. As for the original research (match results, and attendance, etc.), I would say that the Portland-Seattle rivalry page contains much more original research within the context of your claim. Not only does that page have all of the match results from games between several different UNLINKED teams, from several different UNLINKED leagues, over the EXACT SAME 36 YEAR TIME FRAME as FtL-TB, the Ptld-Sttl page also contains a list of players who have played for both teams. After a quick glance through the web, I found no such list of Timbers-Sounders players anywhere other than at wikipedia.
By the way, here's a different NASL.com article than the one previously discussed, that does talk about the MLS era of the derby. [3]
I'll state it again as plainly as possible: Either plenty of evidence exists in the press/media coverage over time to give testimony to the rivalry's existence, or there's been quite an impressive conspiracy over the course of 36 years to make it appear that a derby exists. - Creativewill ( talk) 16:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
References
If someone could separate the Coastal Cup (soccer) from this page so it may become a separate article, that would be great. Jacksonville Armada FC is joining the Coastal Cup next season, so it wouldn't make sense to include them on this page.
There is precedence for this, as Portland TimbersâSeattle Sounders rivalry and Cascadia Cup are two separate articles as well.
66.253.133.114 ( talk) 00:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
NEW COASTAL CUP PAGE IS UP!!! Please take a look and help to make it even better! cheers. - Creativewill ( talk) 17:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
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The Fusion and Mutiny played more games than are listed on this page. Their rivalry lasted from 1998-2001. KitHutch ( talk) 19:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Any thought to expanding this rivalry to include its pre-history, the 1975 and 1976 NASL Seasons when the Rowdies played against the Miami Toros, who would become the the Strikers? If we are including MLS matches, this notion would also seem logical to me. Cheers to all! - Creativewill ( talk) 20:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I know there's been a lot of earnest work here, but the premise appears to be entirely original research. It combines information and scores for every team from the two metropolitan areas, whether there was any real connection or not. The original Tampa Bay Rowdies were not related to the Tampa Bay Mutiny or the modern Tampa Bay Rowdies/FC Tampa Bay. The original Fort Lauderdale Strikers/Miami Toros were not related to the second Fort Lauderdale Strikers, the Miami Fusion, or the third Fort Lauderdale Strikers/Miami FC. And of course several of those were named for or played in Miami rather than Fort Lauderdale. I doubt that any source outside of Wikipedia has ever pulled them all together like this. Most of the sources used here are either self-published blogs, or they just give information on individual teams or games; they don't make a claim about an overall rivalry lasting since the 1970s. Unfortunately, this article may need a total reshifting in focus to keep it.-- CĂșchullain t/ c 15:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
NO RELIABLE SOURCES, YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT? Since when are the Sun Sentinal, Evening Independent, Lakeland Ledger, Boca Raton News, Miami Herald, St. Pete Times, and NASL.com considered blogs and/or unreliable? Specifically, please review the following articles: http://nasl.com/index.php?id=3&newsid=5582 - http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2001-05-18/sports/0105180140_1_fusion-tampa-bay-mutiny-florida-derby - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L0xQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rlgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7005,1868793&dq=striker+likers+soccer&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9cUxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jo0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6578,1728637&dq=striker+likers+soccer&hl=en - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MH&s_site=miami&p_multi=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB337A6B03FC5B9&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM - http://www.tampabay.com/sports/soccer/tampa-bay-rowdies-beat-fort-lauderdale-strikers-3-1/1227584 -I forgot to mention, that the current coach Ricky Hill was also an APSL Rowdie who in the lead-up to each tie, talks about how the rivalry was in his playing era. I can tell you that I began working to clean up this page last August after realizing that some of the info was obviously inaccurate. As I began making those corrections with citations, I stumbled upon more information that ran contrary to the wiki-article's content and needed either correcting, verifying or clarifying. In general the article needed polishing, so I polished. Again I will refer you to the Portland-Seattle rivalry page which is almost identical in scope and nature, yet no one seems to be questioning its validity as a derby. The only difference that I can see is that since it's now in MLS, it currently occupies a bigger stage. By the way, it has only been played 84 times to the Florida Derby's 98 meetings. Regards - Creativewill ( talk) 15:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. it also states Sometimes non-neutral sources are good sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.
While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific
context. On the other hand, an
opinion in a reliable source is still an opinion, rather than a fact. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use...
The only bias in the NASL article is that they are talking about teams from their own league, that's it (and that's probably why they barely mentioned one of two the MLS teams in the piece). I assume they didn't make up those stats or those quotes. The stats are facts, the quotes from Hill and Hudson are the opinion of the two former players/coaches, not the league. Of course NASL.com is going to discuss topics germane to their own league, but that's not a bias that would make the story unreliable. Or -by that convoluted logic you are could also suggest that any sports league's coverage of a trade, a game, or a player signing w/in that league would also be biased and there-by unreliable. How is that any different than a bias shown by any local reporter giving his team/local stories more coverage than a stories in another market? Most of the other articles that I mentioned in my last post were written within the context of "the match at hand" and added things to the effect of ...it's no different than when Team A and B played 5 years ago... or back when his father played in the rivalry... or back when the coaches were players in the rivalry, etc.
If as you seem to infer, this rivalry doesn't exist, then why do journalists keep mentioning it? Why do so many reporters include it in their stories when teams from these two regions of Florida play soccer? All of these people (who lived it) sure seem to remember something having happened relative to the game-day intensity level compared to other matches. So either it's an ongoing rivalry from the mid 1970s or 38 years of intensely fought coincidences, in association football, between several different squads from the same two regions of Florida, that keeps getting brought up by media types and former players from the two regions. Finally I'll ask you again to comment about the difference between this page and the alleged (by your standards)
Portland-Seattle rivalry, because most everything I read about that derby, seems to stem from the two local media markets or the "biased" MLS. Moreover that page discusses their rivalry in almost the exact same context as FtL-TB (i.e. NASL, ASL, MLS, etc.) including the gaps. Even their opening reads nearly identical to the FtL-TB page. -
Creativewill (
talk)
08:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
...reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific
context... When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Does NASL.com have a reputation/history of NOT fact-checking that you're unaware of?
As far as this page being "MY CLAIMS" about a rivalry. I would kindly ask you to remember that I DID NOT create this page. I only improved an existing page by citing sources and correcting errors as I discovered them, as would any other editor. To be honest, I resent such a dismissive and condescending choice of words. All of that not withstanding, am I to understand that you're saying that the NASL.com article needs some sort of all-inclusive reference (rather than the numerous smaller ones it clearly already has) to back up ITS assertion of an ongoing rivalry between the clubs of the 2 regions over time... else it just stands as hyperbole put out by the league's PR machine? As I see it, the numerous np stories that have brought up the rivalry as it pertained to now (whenever "now" was at press time) and its past (before "now" at that particular press time) lend a lot more support to NASL.com's claims than yours. There are youtube videos of people discussing the rivalry, in great detail in terms of then and now.
[1] and
[2] Alas, since Ken Burns clearly wasn't the director of these, how can they be trusted?
The fact of the matter is that most of your initial claims (like game locations) have been debunked. Your claim that this was ENTIRELY original research is also wrong. I will agree that there is probably no source outside of wikipedia that covers this particular topic in this much detail, but the same could be said of a great many other wikipedia pages (the Portland-Seattle rivalry page comes to mind). As I'm sure you know, because editors build on the work of previous editors, this becomes a defacto aspect of wikipedia in general. It is not unique to the page in question, nor should it indict the page. As for the original research (match results, and attendance, etc.), I would say that the Portland-Seattle rivalry page contains much more original research within the context of your claim. Not only does that page have all of the match results from games between several different UNLINKED teams, from several different UNLINKED leagues, over the EXACT SAME 36 YEAR TIME FRAME as FtL-TB, the Ptld-Sttl page also contains a list of players who have played for both teams. After a quick glance through the web, I found no such list of Timbers-Sounders players anywhere other than at wikipedia.
By the way, here's a different NASL.com article than the one previously discussed, that does talk about the MLS era of the derby. [3]
I'll state it again as plainly as possible: Either plenty of evidence exists in the press/media coverage over time to give testimony to the rivalry's existence, or there's been quite an impressive conspiracy over the course of 36 years to make it appear that a derby exists. - Creativewill ( talk) 16:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
References
If someone could separate the Coastal Cup (soccer) from this page so it may become a separate article, that would be great. Jacksonville Armada FC is joining the Coastal Cup next season, so it wouldn't make sense to include them on this page.
There is precedence for this, as Portland TimbersâSeattle Sounders rivalry and Cascadia Cup are two separate articles as well.
66.253.133.114 ( talk) 00:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
NEW COASTAL CUP PAGE IS UP!!! Please take a look and help to make it even better! cheers. - Creativewill ( talk) 17:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.â cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:27, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
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