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Last I checked, CIRP did not say they were anticircumcision anywhere on their site. Indeed those loaded words are often an attempt to confuse this with adult circumcision. We do not say breast reconstruction is "antimastectomy", so please leave out pro and anti judgements. Including CIRP as part of men's health issues is fine, nobody is saying they are right or better than anyone else. So I see that as NPOV, I hope we can agree that emphasizing circumcision one way or the other is not relevant at all in this article. DanP 23:54, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The scientific basis of neurochemistry is no less relevant than a far-fetched glans study which has no mention of restoration. Pertaining to actual restoration, you can see before and after photos of glans texture. And this theory than the glans does not keritinize has been debunked time after time, as mucous membranes all respond in a similar manner in the body to severe dryness. In any case, leave the glans study out, or put it back, I don't care which. But if you include it, then you have to allow science of neural response to be discussed. The study, flawed as it is, total neglects nerve impulses and focuses only on certain physical parameters. DanP 17:56, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Although this article has been edited 40 times in October alone, very little has changed and not much progress has been made. Perhaps instead of continuing to rollback and revert changes to a few sections of this article so that it essentially cycles between two different versions, we could discuss the disputed sections here and find a solution.
If other editors are interested in discussing the disputed parts of this article with a goal of coming to a factually accurate version that is backed up by scientific evidence, please comment below. If necessary, we can take the dispute to Wikipedia:Requests for comment or even hold a vote, but anything is better than what's happening now.
Acegikmo1 04:51, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe two polls would be a polls would be a good idea. These are just mockups for working out the kinks:
| Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll | ¿Should either Præputial Restorers or Circumcisiosexuals state both the motivations and the goals of Præputial Restorers? | / Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll |
Comments
Yes
No
| Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll | ¿Is it sane to want to be normal and whole? | / Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll |
Comments
Yes
No
Groundrules:
¿Is this acceptable?
Ŭalabio 07:21, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)
The last poll you try to hold had no takers. Why should this be any different? People are getting wise to what floats the collective boats of foreskin restorers and it is increasingly at odds with what these sad people try to sell as their motivation. We need to include in the article the dubious motivations behind the need to hang weights from their penises. No sugar coating can be acceptable. - Robert the Bruce 09:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This does seem to be getting silly. Why are some contributors to determined to cover up (no pun intended) relevant scientific evidence? - Jakew 10:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
1. For every Google-Group-Post you cite, I could cite two Usenetnewsgroupposts, which you could counter with three saved IM-chats, which I could counter with four pictures of graffiti scrolled on a wall.
2. Only restorers know what motivates restorers. Only restorers know what our goals are. If a newspaper rewrote the stated motivations and goals of someone, people would say that the newspaper is worse than CBS and Fox. Ŭalabio 17:58, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)
Oh so Acegikimo is an anticirc activist too? And Eloquence and Hadal. Why according to you everyone is. So why are you here. If we are all' a bunch of anticirc pov pushers, what are you doing in Wikipedia? Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 07:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Everyone? Theresa you should really stop this childish exaggeration. I'll restrict my fingering of individuals to the two of you for starters. Hadal? Who knows and who cares. But Eloquence, now there is a beauty for you if I ever saw one. Have you noticed how he shoots out of the blocks and shrieks everytime he hears the words "skin freak"? heh heh heh. OK, enough of the fun stuff then. Now are you going to contribute or just going to try and goad me into saying something to give you the excuse to haul me before the AC? I ask you once again Theresa ... please get off my case. - Robert the Bruce 16:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry Robert Brookes but i have no intention of getting off your case. You are rude antagonistic POV pusher who is only here to argue with the anticirc mob.. I'll ask you again. Since you are not neutral in this matter please recuse yourself from these pages. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 16:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since people responded to my comment above, I think we should get to work and start looking at the disputed sections.
Unless the first version can be supported by evidence, I think we should go with the second version for now. Some time ago, DanP challenged the Bleustein study. He stated,
An important discovery is that the touch receptors in the glans are no longer stimulated thoughout the day by contact with clothing. Touch-sensitive nerves are mechanoreceptors, and have the property that constant stimuli can diminish the action potential over time. With genitals, this can have an effect on how touch, or in some cases sexual response, is interpreted by the brain. This effect is not easily measurable, and is much the same as the perceived elevated sensitivity of covered skin in general. For example, when skin is tightly bandaged or covered by a cast for a sustained period of time and then exposed to the air, the skin can feel more sensitive to the touch.
Therefore, it is probable that the perceived sensitivity gains of foreskin restoration may not include a physical change in glans sensitivity, except for men who have extreme scarring and keritinization to cope with. Instead, changes in glans sensitivity may be qualitative and neurochemical in effect.
If he can support this by external resources, I don't object to it going in the article (though it could probably be simplified). I'm interested in what people have to say about my proposals.
Sincerely,
Acegikmo1 17:21, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding DanP's comments, I highly doubt that he'll be able to provide supporting evidence for something that he claims is "not easily measurable". Still, we'll see.
Regarding Ŭalabio's comments, firstly please be respectful towards those who disagree with you, and avoid such name-calling as 'circumcisiophiliacs' and 'circumcisiosexuals'. Secondly, restorers may know their own motivations (though not always), but they may not know those of others. It's very easy to assume everyone is like ourselves, isn't it, and sometimes this can trick us. Perhaps we can resolve this by scouring the literature for documented motivations? Finally, nobody wants restorers to look insane, and that is not the purpose of Wiki. The purpose is to provide accurate information, so that people can make up their own minds. - Jakew 18:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-18T18:39 (UTC), Jakew:
Regarding DanP's comments, I highly doubt that he'll be able to provide supporting evidence for something that he claims is "not easily measurable". Still, we'll see.
I disagree. Anecdotally, most of us have had casts removed. We can attest that skin feels more sensitive. On the side of mechanoreceptors going numb from overstimulation, I present what OSHA has to say about the subject. Unless you wish to challenge both the accounts of people who had casts removed and OSHA, I plan to include the information.
Regarding Ŭalabio's comments, firstly please be respectful towards those who disagree with you, and avoid such name-calling as 'circumcisiophiliacs' and 'circumcisiosexuals'.
¿What would you like one to call your group? ¿What would you like one to call members of your group? At any rate, both circumcisiophiliacs and circumcisiosexuals are accurate terms.
Secondly, restorers may know their own motivations (though not always), but they may not know those of others. It's very easy to assume everyone is like ourselves, isn't it, and sometimes this can trick us. Perhaps we can resolve this by scouring the literature for documented motivations?
If you want to add motivation from the literature, fine. Please stop changing the stated reasons for restoring from restorers. I want to be whole complete intact and normal with better sexual function.
Finally, nobody wants restorers to look insane, and that is not the purpose of Wiki. The purpose is to provide accurate information, so that people can make up their own minds. - Jakew 18:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
¿What about that junk your camp slipped in about restorers being homosexuals with psycho sexual problems about restores being homosexual with psychosexual problems (that description better describes your camp)? I am a heterosexual man. I suffered from circumcisiogenic anorgamia. I suppose that your solution would be to get a subincision. I decided to restore -- not further sexually mutilate myself. Thanks to restoration, I can do amazing feats such as preform manual prostate-maintenance without lubricants. Much more importantly, I can make love now. I am psychosexually more health now than in a decade thanks to restoration:
Loneliness and sexual frustration did not leave me in the best psychological state. Now, I am more content than anytime in over a decade.
Ŭalabio 09:40, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Your proposed changes to the first two sections look good. However I suggest adding the word "non-therapeutic" to the second sentence in the second section. "While they generally oppose the non-therapeutic circumcision of minors, they embrace foreskin restoration as a voluntary process." -- DanBlackham 07:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio, You say:
Now, regarding the OSHA, you offer this. Note that this relates to vibration, which was tested by Bleustein. In other words, this has been disproven. I believe that anecdotal accounts have already been referred to (indeed, without these, it would be pointless to refer to the placebo effect).
Regarding labels for "my group", I see no need to pigeon-hole myself, though the term "scientist" is adequate. If you continue to indulge in personal attacks, I intend to report the behaviour.
You say:
That's fine, but those are your motivations, not necessarily those of every restorer.
It sounds like you're referring to Mohl et al. It's a valid scientific study. If you object to it, why not also include scientific research giving your POV? Deleting scientific research simply because you don't like it is not NPOV.
Look, I'm sorry you have suffered from anorgasmia, and I'm sorry that you believe it's due to circumcision, but from what you've said, it seems overwhelmingly probable that it's psychosomatic. Are you aware that depression is a known cause of many sexual dysfunctions?
- Jakew 10:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-17T10:47 (UTC), Jakew:
Ŭalabio, You say:
Unless you wish to challenge both the accounts of people who had casts removed and OSHA, I plan to include the information.
Now, regarding the OSHA, you offer this. Note that this relates to vibration, which was tested by Bleustein. In other words, this has been disproven. I believe that anecdotal accounts have already been referred to (indeed, without these, it would be pointless to refer to the placebo effect).
I not believe that anyone has disproven that vibration causes numbness
Regarding labels for "my group", I see no need to pigeon-hole myself, though the term "scientist" is adequate. If you continue to indulge in personal attacks, I intend to report the behaviour.
Most scientist do not want to cut genitals. ¿What should one call a scientist interested in cutting genitals?
You say:
I want to be whole complete intact and normal with better sexual function.
That's fine, but those are your motivations, not necessarily those of every restorer.
As I stated, rather than changing my stated motivations, ¿why not find out what motivates others? and add that information to the article.
¿What about that junk your camp slipped in about restorers being homosexuals with psychosexual problems?
It sounds like you're referring to Mohl et al. It's a valid scientific study. If you object to it, why not also include scientific research giving your POV? Deleting scientific research simply because you don't like it is not NPOV.
It is junkscience because it is demonstratably wrong. Most restorers are heterosexual well-adjusted men.
Look, I'm sorry you have suffered from anorgasmia, and I'm sorry that you believe it's due to circumcision, but from what you've said, it seems overwhelmingly probable that it's psychosomatic. Are you aware that depression is a known cause of many sexual dysfunctions?
¡Oh! ¡That must be it! ¡Depression causes tight painful erections!
- Jakew 10:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio 20:11, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Ŭalabio, you say:
Bleustein tested sensitivity to vibration. How much vibration are we talking about here? Sure, if men were resting pneumatic drills on their penes, I can see your point.
You ask:
You've already answered that question perfectly well with that description.
You describe Mohl's study as:
I ask you for your evidence. I have none available regarding sexuality of restorers, but as for well-adjusted, that seems unlikely. There is relatively little evidence in the literature, but half of the respondents in Hammond's survey of male anti-circers were restorers, so perhaps that is a good start. Half suffer low self esteem, 55% dysmorphophobia, 59% were depressed. 41% had problems with physical intimacy. Almost a third - 29% - had some kind of chemical or behavioural dependency problem. This hardly seems a good description of a well-adjusted man to me.- Jakew 20:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is very important information! People must know these facts about foreskin retorers. What an interesting yet alarming insight into the minds of these people. It is absolutely essential to any article on foreskin restoration. Please insert it all without delay! - Robert the Bruce 05:25, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-17T20:34 (UTC), Jakew:
Ŭalabio, you say:
I not believe that anyone has disproven that vibration causes numbness
Bleustein tested sensitivity to vibration. How much vibration are we talking about here? Sure, if men were resting pneumatic drills on their penes, I can see your point.
¿How about the glans rubbing against underwear as the man walks?
You ask:
¿What should one call a scientist interested in cutting genitals?
You've already answered that question perfectly well with that description.
¿Circumcisiologist?
You describe Mohl's study as:
It is junkscience because it is demonstratably wrong. Most restorers are heterosexual well-adjusted men.
I ask you for your evidence. I have none available regarding sexuality of restorers, but as for well-adjusted, that seems unlikely. There is relatively little evidence in the literature, but half of the respondents in Hammond's survey of male anti-circers were restorers, so perhaps that is a good start. Half suffer low self esteem, 55% dysmorphophobia, 59% were depressed. 41% had problems with physical intimacy. Almost a third - 29% - had some kind of chemical or behavioural dependency problem. This hardly seems a good description of a well-adjusted man to me.
All of the respondents are sexually mutilated men. No wonder they are unhappy. Restoration has given me happiness. Let me tell you about someone very much like me I found at a restorationgroup:
I met a restorer in his eighties. Do to tight painful erections, he never orgasmed coitally. He does not want to die an half virgin (penetration but no orgasm) but he does not have much time left. His marriage disintegrated over fifty years ago over violent painful nonreproductive sex (if he worked very hard with petroleum jelly and a vice-like grip for over an hour, he could have something for artificial insemination, but that is not very husbandly). H tried coitus again over the years to the same disasterous effects with different women.
Imagine how much happier his life would have been if he would have discovered Præputial Restoration sixty years ago. Better yet, imagine how much better his whole life would be if the greedy Ob/Gyn never would have sexually mutilated him.
- Jakew 20:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio 21:58, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Acegikmo1. Your efforts are not very helpful. All it seems you are hoping to achieve is to keep the pot boiling. A few points which seem to be lost on you.
Finally, I suggest it is time you drop the pretense of being an "honest broker" in this. State rather you POV openly and resist the temptation of trying to POV push by stealth and misrepresentation. - Robert the Bruce 09:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
People, I've just tried to stop this ludicrous revert war getting out of hand. I've edited the article into what I hope is a good compromise. Can we please try to get some agreement on this? - Jakew 18:13, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP, I believe that we should address circumcision in the circumcision article(s), and restoration in this one. If we're to have a discussion of the psychological aspects, then surely it's reasonable to present both sides?
Continuing editing towards a compromise. Comments:
- Jakew 19:30, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding (de-)keratinisation, if they're reporting the appearance of peeling or sloughing of tissue, then it seems reasonable to say so. - Jakew 20:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC) Addendum: Would you prefer "to increase their sexual sensitivity"? This might be less likely to be confused with "net gain" (I have to say I find it unlikely that it'd be read that way, but in the spirit of compromise...)
I'm happy with "try to improve sensitivity". I deleted "sensory changes", because it's redundant after "improve sensitivity". I'm happy with the changes in "young men". Do you have any supporting evidence regarding delay of ejaculation?
I've incorporated some of the scientific studies into your (DanP's) structure for anecdotal reports. - Jakew 21:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that Jakew's edits have improve the neutrality and accuracy of the article quite a bit. The wording about the claimed benefits of foreskin restoration has been improved, while other information has been changed to reflect the context better. I'm comfortable with the current version of the article, though I think the following changes might be appropriate:
Acegikmo1 22:54, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Acegikmol, you raise some good points. I agree that the sentence beginning "men who have lost" could use some work. It feels very awkward in the choice of words.
I've deleted "sensory changes", since I intended to do so earlier (see above). I believe that we should cover purpose (or motivation) separately from the effects, in order to avoid confusion.
To be fair, all methods of restoration can result in a net loss of sensitivity (even skin expansion, the least invasive method, decreases the density of nerve endings as an inevitable result of increasing surface area). As you imply, success must be measured against the purpose. - Jakew 23:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Logically, Dan, the density of nerve endings must reduce, since the number of nerves is fixed. But I feel we're getting side-tracked here. Evidence regarding ejaculation is decidedly contradictory - while CIRP do list a few references, they look decidedly weak. There's also Senkul and Laumann's studies which show greater time to ejaculate. But, in fairness, all of these compare circumcised with uncircumcised rather than with restored, so although it may well be applicable, we're speculating somewhat. For purposes of the article, I've changed the wording slightly - see what you think. I've included the sensitivity study (who is Richard?), as the implications of this for restoration have been specifically discussed in the BMJ. My understanding of NPOV is that instead of trying to silence one viewpoint, we include a contrasting viewpoint as well. Therefore, I don't object in principle to your including a discussion paragraph, though we'll doubtless have to thrash out the contents! - Jakew 09:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Jakew. I'm am not sure the leaving out of the Hammond findings on significant mental patholgy and substance abuse among foreskin restorers contributes to the quality of this article. Somehow these sad sick people have come to focus on their lack of a foreskin as the reason for all their ills. Whatever the cause of their mental condition it remains clear that more than half are very sick puppies. I mean who in their right mind would embark on years of hanging weights from their penis? Surely the best way to solve this "problem" is through hypnosis and not bizarre gentially focused rituals? The Hammond findings should be included. I will add them unless a very persuasive argument is made to the contrary. - Robert the Bruce 17:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
When some men learn the following facts about male circumcision they become justifiably angry:
When they learn these facts some men feel that their basic human rights were violated when a normal, healthy part of their penis was cut off without a valid medical indication in the same way they feel that the basic human rights of girls in Africa are violated by female genital cutting. -- DanBlackham 21:35, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While those facts may well be so (with the exception of the "specialized" nerves), the fact remains that only a relatively small number of men actually develop these psychiatric symptoms. Logic, then, suggests that something predisposes them to reacting in such a manner. It's difficult to know what, precisely, this is, and I hope that future research will address these issues, but based upon my own encounters as well as the work of Mohl et al, it seems to be a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder. This is of course a generalisation, and there are doubtless exceptions, but it seems that in many cases there is a sense of dissatisfaction with life, and often sex in particular, and "discovering" that something has been taken away from one is the perfect scapegoat - something that wasn't one's fault. Just some thoughts to ponder. - Jakew 22:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I think I see what you're aiming at with the keratinisation changes, but the fact is that Szabo and Short found no difference in any male. I've suggested 'among those studied' as a compromise. I have reintroduced the sensitivity data again - as I've said before, neutrality does not mean censoring one viewpoint. By all means, however, add a "some consider Bleustein's research to be inaccurate, however..." paragraph, but please stop trying to delete it altogether! - Jakew 23:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Restoration needs no scapegoat, but the motivations behind it may (or indeed may not). Discussion of motivations is not hate speech and in the context of this (talk) page is quite legitimate. Regarding keratin and the glans, I have made (yet another) attempt at neutrality. I'm not happy with "some men" phrasing when referring to comparative scientific research - the research suggests that the anecdotal reports are anomalous, not vice-versa. I believe that my new phrasing is NPOV. - Jakew 01:23, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, To be fair, not all motivations are consciously understood, so it may be unrealistic to say that anyone truly knows their motivations. It isn't accurate to say that the glans of a restorer is different from that of an uncircumcised or circumcised man - while the penis differs slightly, the glans does not (or, if it does, this has yet to be documented). In my view, it's unsurprising that the circumcision article has a lot of scientific data - it is, after all, a scientific subject. I'm sorry that you find this detrimental to the article. Back to this article (like any other), we must ensure that statements are reasonable and factual. At present, science offers the best way of arriving at truth - what else is there? My intent isn't to brand restorers as psychopaths, but to better understand and describe. If we imagine that someone is depressed and obsessed with a missing foreskin, that offers a better understanding regarding why he might want to do this, doesn't it? It's irrational to be offended by a clinical description of that state, just as it would be irrational to be offended by being described as 'suffering from flu'. - Jakew 22:37, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Dan, I think that a motivations paragraph would be most interesting. I wouldn't oppose such an inclusion, provided that statements were backed up with scientific evidence (as opposed to empty speculation). In principle, you're correct that it isn't strictly accurate to say that the glans is the same, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is perhaps the most logical assumption. While you're correct that studies do not address restoration specifically, isn't restoration fundamentally based on the idea of replicating the uncircumcised anatomy as closely as possible? Either coverage has an effect, or it does not. If it does, then it must be a measurable effect. Logical? - Jakew 23:23, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
We need to get the overview right. I have made the necessary initial change. The next one should include the psycho sexual motivation behind this bizarre practice. I accept that there will be resistance to any wording along those lines so I will see what suggested wording others may introduce before offering my own version. - Robert the Bruce 02:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I removed, "...the erroneous belief that it will improve sensitivity. However, most restorers have a more base psychosexual motivation."
The belief hasn't been proven "erroneous"; One study that found no difference in the sensitivity of the glans in uncircumcised and circumcised men is hardly proof that foreskin restoration has no effect on sensitivity.
I removed the second sentence for a similar reason: no evidence was provided that "restorers have a more base psychosexual motivation", so the addition of this statement is a biased attack. I have left in Robert's addition, (The motivation behind the desire for foreskin restoration is complex in nature and stems from an emotional or physcological need to achieve a sense of "completion" or "wholeness".), but I'd like to see some references to back it up.
Acegikmo1 05:56, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that Robert the Bruce is correct in that the overview does require some work. The questions this article needs to answer, in effect, are: "what is it?" "why do people do that?" "how do they do it?" and "what are the consequences?" (have I missed any?). In my opinion, we should delete the sentence "Men who have lost their foreskin through circumcision..." from the introduction, and expand the overview, possibly creating a "motivation" section to cover the second question. In my view, the question "why on earth would anyone want to do that?" remains totally unaddressed in this article, and we should at least attempt to answer that.
Acegikmo1, instead of the word "erroneous", would you be happy with "questionable" or "controversial"?
Robert the Bruce, I think that we should avoid judgmental words like "bizarre", and preferably "psychosexual". NPOV dictates that we should allow the evidence to speak for itself and let the reader decide. Agreed?
- Jakew 09:58, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanBlackham, there is a great difference between perceived and actual sensitivity. I don't doubt that many men perceive improved sensitivity, but that doesn't imply that there is an empirical difference. Neither your opinion nor mine should form the basis of the structure of this article. An understanding of the relative merits of various kinds of evidence shows that anecdotal evidence is less valuable than comparative scientific research (consider the fallacy of the striking instance). The POV should not come into the equation, since for a POV to be relevant, the analysis must be subjective rather than objective. - Jakew 11:11, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I believe the linked article "How does male circumcision protect against HIV infection" for the keratin research is a cheap promotional for circumcision. Please consider finding a different article with less pro-mutilation spin. This article shouldn't get caught up in that debate, or else we really should balance by including links to information about restoration not being needed, had circumcision been avoided in the first place. We should either present both sides, or leave the topic in its correct article. DanP 23:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP, do you have any specific objections to Szabo and Short's ground-breaking paper, other than a dislike for the general theme? The paper does present a finding that is highly relevant to the topic of restoration, and censoring it based solely on a whim is highly inappropriate. The Wiki article should be neither pro-circumcision nor anti-. Nor should it be pro-restoration or anti- (I remind you that restoration and circumcision have both been described as mutilations). We should provide references to back up statements, where appropriate, but aside from reinforcing a point, it's difficult to see why they should be inappropriate. - Jakew 10:45, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You obviously don't regard it as a mutilation, DanP, and that's fair enough. It is a subjective term after all. I'm sorry that you don't like Szabo and Short's "theme", but that doesn't affect the relevance of their finding. If you like, you could change the link to my review instead [4]. As far as research "opposing" circumcision goes, if it introduces some data that is directly relevant, then I don't object to the inclusion (I've quoted "opposing", since true science should simply present the facts with neutrality; it should neither advocate nor oppose). - Jakew 18:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, saying "research should not..." is a value judgement that science, ideally, is supposed to be free from. Really good science asks about and states the painfully obvious. If referencing the article added nothing of relevance, then I would agree that it should be removed, but the finding relating to keratinisation is highly relevant to restoration, and I think that removing the study would be to the detriment of the article. As far as mutilation goes, I guess some might regard body building as a mutilation. A better example, perhaps, would be the stretching of the ear lobes. Some people see this as mutilation. I'm not saying that they're right - just that it is subjective. But, as I said, this discussion is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you'd like to continue, can I suggest we discuss by email? - Jakew 20:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In reference to terms used in the article, I believe we should fix some terms which are inconsistently applied. I hope we can come to agreement here, since Robert's changes are somewhat confusing.
Circumcised men - Although I think the term is OK in moderation, it sounds like it "defines" the man like it's a race or something. I believe it would be appropriate here to treat this like other procedures. For instance, we don't say "tonsillectomized men" -- we just say a man who had a tonsillectomy.
Restorers - Restoration isn't a job, or a hobby, or some kind of profession. Certainly nobody self-applies that term, that I know of. The accurate phrase should just be: a man choosing foreskin restoration. For instance, a person who does their own pedicure is not a pedicurer. Restorer just doesn't work very well, IMO. When possible, we should use verbs to say what a person does, not what a person is.
Psychiatric - Robert has stuck this and other negative-POV stuff in here. If there are mental patients who restore, that is already clearly mentioned, even though the circumcision article does not contain psychiatric analyses. But the effort to constantly push POV beyond actual demographics should be reverted.
Anti-circumcision - As covered before, not all men who restore are active in genital integrity, nor is genital integrity against all circumcision. There are a few who restore that are concerned with themselves, figuring it won't be helpful to them personally to involve political baggage, and there many who simply don't care to get involved. Whether a person is for or against circumcision (adult or infant) should be left out, unless we want to include a paragraph on social and political aspects. I'd be fine with such a paragraph, although it's not tied strongly to the article. Few other voluntary body modifications have social and political paragraphs intertwined unless it's essential to understanding the topic. Alleged,reported,claimed - All perfectly fine in themselves, whether it supports or denies a physical change. But to string together several qualifiers all in the same sentence only serves to use loaded words to tell the reader "don't make up your own mind". Please use a neutral qualifier to leave the reader a choice. DanP 20:30, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Although the Hammond poll mentions restoration briefly, the material focuses on consequences of circumcision. Whether or not a man chooses restoration is only one small part of the poll, and the whole BJU article is far more relevant to the circumcision article. I believe it is better to leave this article for restoration, not the circumcision debate. DanP 20:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While he is a leading anti-circ activist, more relevant is the fact that he is co-founder of the National Organization of Restoring Men (NORM). - Jakew 09:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The one thing we do know for sure is that circumcision of children is NOT medically necessary. That is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of every professional medical organization in the world that has a policy on circumcision. That is why the circumcision debate is now centered on ethics and human rights. -- DanBlackham 10:18, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, why did you delete the link to National Organization of Restoring Men from the "External links" section on October 26? -- DanBlackham 10:05, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jakew, according to the Taylor study, "smooth muscle bundles are common to both shaft skin and preputial mucosa". As I understand it, the tightness of the natural foreskin is attributed to the ridged band. The article should mention this distinction with restored foreskins, which still have dartos muscle, but are not as snug usually. Any recommendations on rewording? I am open to ideas here. DanP 19:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, why not just call it the Dartos muscle? That's what it is, after all. - Jakew 20:05, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That seems best actually. DanP 22:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, please stop your ad hominem attacks on Dr. Taylor. Dr. Taylor's article is an accurate description of the cellular anatomy of the foreskin. [5] He found that an intact male's foreskin has a high concentration of specialized nerve cells. -- DanBlackham 08:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, some of this debate about ridged bands should move to the foreskin article. It is not exclusive to restoration. The mixture of POV about who is against or for circumcision -- again, not relevant here and it can move to the circumcision article. Restoration is after the fact. I didn't really see the need to put anything in the article from Hammond's poll, since it covers circumcision damage and is far enough removed from an encyclopedic description of foreskin restoration. But it is there, physical (which is what restoration mainly is) and psychological, even though restoration is only minimally mentioned in the poll. Plainly, Robert's POV is one thing I cannot find in Hammond's article whatsoever. DanP 23:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, in your edit of 23:01, 4 Nov 2004, you incorrectly described your edit as "Removing the POV insertions". In fact, it was a wholesale revert to an earlier version more favourable to your POV. Why? - Jakew 23:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that it's reasonable to assume that a circumcision has been done (though, as the article notes, some men want to stretch a natural foreskin). If you compare the Hammond paragraph as it first appeared with what's present now, you'll see that it is essentially neutral. It isn't appropriate to quote Hammond verbatim, since it's off-topic. Hammond's article was a propaganda piece, intended to give the impression of circumcision "causing" all these harms. In that context, it's absurd to cite it at all (aside from the fact that all participants were selected based upon their contacting an activist group, there wasn't even an attempt at providing a control group). However, once one recognises that it provides an informative and useful picture of male anti-circers and foreskin restorers, it does have a small amount of value. The present description is non-judgemental, reporting both physical and psychological aspects from this poll, and (importantly) does so in a way that's relevant to the subject matter. - Jakew 18:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, could you explain what you meant in your edit summary: "Many of those changes are not even in Hammond's work."
Actually, it was limited to male anti-circumcision activists, though Hammond doesn't use those words. He's rather vague about how they were recruited in the paper. However, elsewhere [6], he explains: "In 1993, The National Organization to Halt the Routine Mutilation of Men (NOHARMM) sent a questionnaire to circumcised males who had contacted either the national office of NOHARMM in San Francisco, California, or various foreskin restoration support services that work closely with NOHARMM." Now think for a moment, who contacts and assists an organisation to halt the "abuse and routine mutilation of males" but an activist? Contacting an anti-circumcision organisation, and filling out a "harm documentation form" is in itself a form of anti-circumcision activism! - Jakew 19:22, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Although it's a little long-winded, I've changed the wording to: "In a poll of men who had either contacted an anti-circumcision organization or a foreskin restoration group". That's completely factual and NPOV. - Jakew 20:23, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've taken some of your changes, and changed them where necessary. I think you went a bit off-topic in some places, so I've tried to correct that. I'll gladly explain my changes if you want. - Jakew 00:07, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I think you're right about "controversial" attempt. The belief is controversial, but the attempt is not. I've changed it.
I don't believe that there's an emphasis on anti-circumcision. Under physical aspects, Hammond's poll describes physical problems that restorers might want to rectify, and anti-circ organisations are mentioned by way of introduction. Later on, in the appropriate section, we discuss psychological problems. We should refrain from ranting about consequences of circumcision, particularly since causation hasn't been established. It also isn't known whether any problems mentioned are present in the wider population, and indeed there's reason to doubt that. None of this discussion would benefit the article whatsoever. Let's stick to what's known and relevant to the subject at hand - what symptoms men might hope to resolve through restoration.
I moved Goodwin's study to the section where it belongs (physical aspects). I made some minor changes to the wording, and incorporated a neutral form of the placebo sentence. - Jakew 00:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've incorporated a few of your changes, but not all of them. - Jakew 01:04, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Several of the statements in this article concerning the Hammond poll fail to note that the physical and psychological consequences are a result of circumcision, not restoration. Hammond's poll was not exclusively on restoration, so leaving out the true basis of the poll leaves the numbers incorrectly represented here. For that reason, I am reverting once again until this, and the other extrapolations Hammond never published, can be explained as to its factual basis. DanP 18:48, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There's no reason to suppose that the physical and psychological problems were a result of circumcision, so we shouldn't say they were. All we know from Hammond is that these problems were common among men who choose to restore (and who contact NOHARMM). A control group and representative sample would be necessary in order to establish causation (as I discussed above). - Jakew 19:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, I agree that Hammond's article characterises the problems as consequences of circumcision, but - as explained - there's no evidence for that. Since the respondents were circumcised (as the title suggests) at an early age, they would be unable to know whether their problems existed prior to their circumcision, and so are not in a position to determine causation either.
Stating that the problems were consequences is pushing a point of view. So too is stating that they were not. Simply saying that they are problems, and not expressing a view one way or other is NPOV. Consequently, I'm reverting. - Jakew 20:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I understand, the respondents were merely asked to tick boxes for various problems. The conclusion that these were consequences of circumcision was Hammond's. Regardless, interpretation is POV, while facts are not. Let's stick with the facts. - Jakew 23:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
True, Hammond does claim that these are consequences, but they are not. It's important to recognise the difference between reality and reporting. Unfortunately, they're very different in this case. As I understand, neither of us dispute the problems reported, only the cause. If you're determined to discuss the matter in the article, then I suggest we add a paragraph in which we can analyse possible causes. - Jakew 23:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Talking about deep analysis is ridiculous: we've no disagreement about including facts, but daft POV interpretations are inappropriate. - Jakew 00:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that the "consequences" are not in fact problems? - Jakew 18:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The fact remains that the points noted are, unquestionably, problems, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are consequences. From a neutral point of view, we cannot truthfully call them consequences, but must call them problems, symptoms, or use similar language. The article is not, after all, about circumcision, but is about restoration. A poll that includes such a high percentage of restorers is surely relevant. - Jakew 12:49, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You're correct that we have only the respondents word that the problems do indeed exist (Having caught a few anti-circers lying, I have my doubts). It's reasonable to say that the problems were reported, however. Since you agree that there's no evidence of consequence, surely you must agree that describing them as 'problems' rather than 'consequences' is more precise, and neither endorses the POV that they are consequences of circumcision, or that they are not. It is neutral. - Jakew 15:23, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, you're confusing me with Robert, who wrote about "serious mental problems" above. While it's true that there is a lack of evidence of such problems existing prior to circumcision, a lack of evidence is distinct from evidence of lack of problems. There is a difference between data and interpretation, as I'm sure you're aware. Hammond's talk of "consequences" is interpretation, though the numbers themselves are data. If we're going to allow one interpretation (Hammond's), then we must also include an alternative POV. Alternatively, we could just use neutral language like 'problems'.
Incidentally, I didn't mean to suggest that all respondents were dishonest about the cause - I do believe that these people genuinely believe any problems to be caused by circumcision (I don't necessarily agree, but I am confident that they believe). It's the problems themselves, rather than their cause, that I'm skeptical about. I'm sure that they aren't all imaginary, but I suspect that quite a few are. - Jakew 17:31, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jakew, I have explained how your version repeatedly makes false statements in misrepresenting poll data. Not to mention leaving Roberts "psychiatric" analysis in play. Why do you need to trash this article? I am sure you can reword, as Theresa's version does, so that no POV in either direction is presented to the reader. Otherwise, if the supporters of foreskin restoration are fair game in your book, why not allow psychiatric reports about the critics of it? That allows for both sides, does it not? DanP 23:38, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please explain why you reverted my change of the word expansion to stretching? I don't understand your reasoning that you gave in the edit summary. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 06:39, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree - it should definitely say 'stretching'. That must somehow have been lost. I've incorporated the change. - Jakew 19:29, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps if we slowed the editing right down. The trouble with making sweeping changes is that it is tempting to revert because of issues with some of those changes. So - what's this T tape thing Dan keeps adding, and why is it being removed? Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 14:56, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, please try to compromise on this. You know very well that we can endlessly point out the lack of sanity or Believe it or not rationale among those seeking needless circumcision of babies. Whether you believe one thing, or you believe another, your beliefs are no better than anyone else's. There is no reason to place judgement right in an article and delete information merely because you disagree with someone. The philosophy of deleting POV judgement in articles is something you've constantly been pursuing in circumcision-related articles, so I'd love to hear your explanation why you do the opposite here and choose to insert POV judgement. We can at least be consistent, if not in agreement. DanP 18:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
RTB: please explain your recent reverts. The user's contributions seemed entirely neutral to me, whereas your reverts do not. Exploding Boy 17:46, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Very well. Please explain exactly how they are not neutral. Exploding Boy 17:08, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
Pardon? Look, if you can't explain why the above edits are, in your opinion, non-neutral, then I'm going to revert your deletion of them. Exploding Boy 17:00, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
I've had quite enough of you and and your sanctimoniuos and arrogant posturing, both on this page (and several related ones) and on various user talk pages. You talk and talk and talk about discussing reverts on article talk pages, but you don't do it yourself. You were the one who reverted another user's edits, so you need to explain why. If you can't do so, then there's clearly no good reason for your reversion, and it will be reversed. Exploding Boy 21:16, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
Since you are either unwilling or unable to discuss/defend your edits, I have reverted them. Continueing your pattern of refusing to discuss your edits even when explicitly requested to do so will be taken as vandalism and dealt with accordingly. Exploding Boy 16:51, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
This conversation is over unless you would like to address the question repeated several times above. For the last time, the onus is on you, as the editor, to defend your edits. Let me know when you'd like to continue the discussion. Exploding Boy 20:55, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Exploding Boy, I agree with most of your changes. However, the section on dartos muscle should not refer to just a ring of muscle. Dartos was inserted as a compromise with regard to the ridged band, which was previously objected to with regard to muscular function. I didn't see an issue with having ridged band, but the dartos is more general and extends all the way to the scrotum. The article should reflect that only a small portion of it extends out to the foreskin acting to hold it in place. DanP 18:54, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I already did explain them. Your removal of relevant, neutral information constitutes pushing a non-neutral point of view. Further, your edit summary and your refusal to discuss your edits reveal that your continued reverts to this page constitute vandalism. To that end, I will be listing you for comment. I'll leave a link on your talk page when I do. Exploding Boy 21:05, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
It is valid to include the word 'psychiatric' in this context. After all, this section briefly discussed Mohl's article, "Prepuce Restoration Seekers: Psychiatric Aspects". - Jakew 22:29, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Such concepts as OCD are inherently psychiatric, rather than psychological. The aspects discussed are psychiatic, in part. The reader can draw from that what he will. - Jakew 21:06, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, it isn't as though we're replacing "emotional and psychological" with "psychiatric". It's just an addition. The only reason that I can see for objecting to the extra information is wanting to hide the (apparently real) possibility that many of these men have psychiatic issues. We shouldn't say that they do, either, but it is fair to quote medical literature on the subject accurately. - Jakew 21:57, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree the word "psychological" is loaded. It carries a very strong anti-foreskin restoration POV. -- DanBlackham 11:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
We are writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Sun newspaper. I find it astonishing that an editor is suggesting that we leave the word "psychiatric" out of a heading because none of the people in a study was "psychotic" and "psychiatric" implies some sort of "nutter". Well, neither are the overwhelming majority of people who are under treatment for psychiatric disorders. Most of them have depression or anxiety that will never progress to psychosis (although the treatments they take for it might conceivably induce it). I think talk of people with psychiatric disorders as "nutters" should be deplored here, not encouraged, and I do deplore it. And I certainly don't think we should pander to that kind of thinking in a serious work of reference. Dr Zen 00:39, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well said, Dr Zen. We are supposed to educate, not pander to illiteracy. - Jakew 12:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK I'm convinced. Leave it in. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 12:25, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First, let me say that this section (Critics and supporters) is absurd. Nevertheless, let's see what can be done with it, at least for now.
I've changed the title to the title of this section. It's marginally more valid to talk about different attitudes towards some activity, I suppose.
I've reworded the first paragraph, to better explain the views of those opposed (it's still not very good, but at least an improvement). It's also invalid to link to some dumb anti-circer grumbling about what opponents think of him, in this context. It would be marginally more appropriate to link to criticisms themselves (eg here).
I've also changed the second paragraph a bit, and removed the last sentence, which was about infant circumcision, not foreskin restoration. Can you find something to say in support of foreskin restoration? - Jakew 18:37, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jake, you have no basis for saying skin bridges are less relevant than psychiatry or substance abuse. Indeed, with regard to the restoration article, they are more relevant, since this is an encyclopedia, not forum to judge one way or the other. Further, you have no basis for including POV against proponents of restoration, while leaving critics unscathed. Both of these issues are what you and Robert have slanted. While I fully welcome your POV (and Robert's too), you should at least allow opposing viewpoints. DanP 00:21, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Last I checked, CIRP did not say they were anticircumcision anywhere on their site. Indeed those loaded words are often an attempt to confuse this with adult circumcision. We do not say breast reconstruction is "antimastectomy", so please leave out pro and anti judgements. Including CIRP as part of men's health issues is fine, nobody is saying they are right or better than anyone else. So I see that as NPOV, I hope we can agree that emphasizing circumcision one way or the other is not relevant at all in this article. DanP 23:54, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The scientific basis of neurochemistry is no less relevant than a far-fetched glans study which has no mention of restoration. Pertaining to actual restoration, you can see before and after photos of glans texture. And this theory than the glans does not keritinize has been debunked time after time, as mucous membranes all respond in a similar manner in the body to severe dryness. In any case, leave the glans study out, or put it back, I don't care which. But if you include it, then you have to allow science of neural response to be discussed. The study, flawed as it is, total neglects nerve impulses and focuses only on certain physical parameters. DanP 17:56, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Although this article has been edited 40 times in October alone, very little has changed and not much progress has been made. Perhaps instead of continuing to rollback and revert changes to a few sections of this article so that it essentially cycles between two different versions, we could discuss the disputed sections here and find a solution.
If other editors are interested in discussing the disputed parts of this article with a goal of coming to a factually accurate version that is backed up by scientific evidence, please comment below. If necessary, we can take the dispute to Wikipedia:Requests for comment or even hold a vote, but anything is better than what's happening now.
Acegikmo1 04:51, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe two polls would be a polls would be a good idea. These are just mockups for working out the kinks:
| Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll | ¿Should either Præputial Restorers or Circumcisiosexuals state both the motivations and the goals of Præputial Restorers? | / Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll |
Comments
Yes
No
| Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll | ¿Is it sane to want to be normal and whole? | / Mockup For Comment -- Not A Real Poll |
Comments
Yes
No
Groundrules:
¿Is this acceptable?
Ŭalabio 07:21, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)
The last poll you try to hold had no takers. Why should this be any different? People are getting wise to what floats the collective boats of foreskin restorers and it is increasingly at odds with what these sad people try to sell as their motivation. We need to include in the article the dubious motivations behind the need to hang weights from their penises. No sugar coating can be acceptable. - Robert the Bruce 09:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This does seem to be getting silly. Why are some contributors to determined to cover up (no pun intended) relevant scientific evidence? - Jakew 10:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
1. For every Google-Group-Post you cite, I could cite two Usenetnewsgroupposts, which you could counter with three saved IM-chats, which I could counter with four pictures of graffiti scrolled on a wall.
2. Only restorers know what motivates restorers. Only restorers know what our goals are. If a newspaper rewrote the stated motivations and goals of someone, people would say that the newspaper is worse than CBS and Fox. Ŭalabio 17:58, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)
Oh so Acegikimo is an anticirc activist too? And Eloquence and Hadal. Why according to you everyone is. So why are you here. If we are all' a bunch of anticirc pov pushers, what are you doing in Wikipedia? Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 07:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Everyone? Theresa you should really stop this childish exaggeration. I'll restrict my fingering of individuals to the two of you for starters. Hadal? Who knows and who cares. But Eloquence, now there is a beauty for you if I ever saw one. Have you noticed how he shoots out of the blocks and shrieks everytime he hears the words "skin freak"? heh heh heh. OK, enough of the fun stuff then. Now are you going to contribute or just going to try and goad me into saying something to give you the excuse to haul me before the AC? I ask you once again Theresa ... please get off my case. - Robert the Bruce 16:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry Robert Brookes but i have no intention of getting off your case. You are rude antagonistic POV pusher who is only here to argue with the anticirc mob.. I'll ask you again. Since you are not neutral in this matter please recuse yourself from these pages. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 16:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since people responded to my comment above, I think we should get to work and start looking at the disputed sections.
Unless the first version can be supported by evidence, I think we should go with the second version for now. Some time ago, DanP challenged the Bleustein study. He stated,
An important discovery is that the touch receptors in the glans are no longer stimulated thoughout the day by contact with clothing. Touch-sensitive nerves are mechanoreceptors, and have the property that constant stimuli can diminish the action potential over time. With genitals, this can have an effect on how touch, or in some cases sexual response, is interpreted by the brain. This effect is not easily measurable, and is much the same as the perceived elevated sensitivity of covered skin in general. For example, when skin is tightly bandaged or covered by a cast for a sustained period of time and then exposed to the air, the skin can feel more sensitive to the touch.
Therefore, it is probable that the perceived sensitivity gains of foreskin restoration may not include a physical change in glans sensitivity, except for men who have extreme scarring and keritinization to cope with. Instead, changes in glans sensitivity may be qualitative and neurochemical in effect.
If he can support this by external resources, I don't object to it going in the article (though it could probably be simplified). I'm interested in what people have to say about my proposals.
Sincerely,
Acegikmo1 17:21, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding DanP's comments, I highly doubt that he'll be able to provide supporting evidence for something that he claims is "not easily measurable". Still, we'll see.
Regarding Ŭalabio's comments, firstly please be respectful towards those who disagree with you, and avoid such name-calling as 'circumcisiophiliacs' and 'circumcisiosexuals'. Secondly, restorers may know their own motivations (though not always), but they may not know those of others. It's very easy to assume everyone is like ourselves, isn't it, and sometimes this can trick us. Perhaps we can resolve this by scouring the literature for documented motivations? Finally, nobody wants restorers to look insane, and that is not the purpose of Wiki. The purpose is to provide accurate information, so that people can make up their own minds. - Jakew 18:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-18T18:39 (UTC), Jakew:
Regarding DanP's comments, I highly doubt that he'll be able to provide supporting evidence for something that he claims is "not easily measurable". Still, we'll see.
I disagree. Anecdotally, most of us have had casts removed. We can attest that skin feels more sensitive. On the side of mechanoreceptors going numb from overstimulation, I present what OSHA has to say about the subject. Unless you wish to challenge both the accounts of people who had casts removed and OSHA, I plan to include the information.
Regarding Ŭalabio's comments, firstly please be respectful towards those who disagree with you, and avoid such name-calling as 'circumcisiophiliacs' and 'circumcisiosexuals'.
¿What would you like one to call your group? ¿What would you like one to call members of your group? At any rate, both circumcisiophiliacs and circumcisiosexuals are accurate terms.
Secondly, restorers may know their own motivations (though not always), but they may not know those of others. It's very easy to assume everyone is like ourselves, isn't it, and sometimes this can trick us. Perhaps we can resolve this by scouring the literature for documented motivations?
If you want to add motivation from the literature, fine. Please stop changing the stated reasons for restoring from restorers. I want to be whole complete intact and normal with better sexual function.
Finally, nobody wants restorers to look insane, and that is not the purpose of Wiki. The purpose is to provide accurate information, so that people can make up their own minds. - Jakew 18:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
¿What about that junk your camp slipped in about restorers being homosexuals with psycho sexual problems about restores being homosexual with psychosexual problems (that description better describes your camp)? I am a heterosexual man. I suffered from circumcisiogenic anorgamia. I suppose that your solution would be to get a subincision. I decided to restore -- not further sexually mutilate myself. Thanks to restoration, I can do amazing feats such as preform manual prostate-maintenance without lubricants. Much more importantly, I can make love now. I am psychosexually more health now than in a decade thanks to restoration:
Loneliness and sexual frustration did not leave me in the best psychological state. Now, I am more content than anytime in over a decade.
Ŭalabio 09:40, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Your proposed changes to the first two sections look good. However I suggest adding the word "non-therapeutic" to the second sentence in the second section. "While they generally oppose the non-therapeutic circumcision of minors, they embrace foreskin restoration as a voluntary process." -- DanBlackham 07:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio, You say:
Now, regarding the OSHA, you offer this. Note that this relates to vibration, which was tested by Bleustein. In other words, this has been disproven. I believe that anecdotal accounts have already been referred to (indeed, without these, it would be pointless to refer to the placebo effect).
Regarding labels for "my group", I see no need to pigeon-hole myself, though the term "scientist" is adequate. If you continue to indulge in personal attacks, I intend to report the behaviour.
You say:
That's fine, but those are your motivations, not necessarily those of every restorer.
It sounds like you're referring to Mohl et al. It's a valid scientific study. If you object to it, why not also include scientific research giving your POV? Deleting scientific research simply because you don't like it is not NPOV.
Look, I'm sorry you have suffered from anorgasmia, and I'm sorry that you believe it's due to circumcision, but from what you've said, it seems overwhelmingly probable that it's psychosomatic. Are you aware that depression is a known cause of many sexual dysfunctions?
- Jakew 10:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-17T10:47 (UTC), Jakew:
Ŭalabio, You say:
Unless you wish to challenge both the accounts of people who had casts removed and OSHA, I plan to include the information.
Now, regarding the OSHA, you offer this. Note that this relates to vibration, which was tested by Bleustein. In other words, this has been disproven. I believe that anecdotal accounts have already been referred to (indeed, without these, it would be pointless to refer to the placebo effect).
I not believe that anyone has disproven that vibration causes numbness
Regarding labels for "my group", I see no need to pigeon-hole myself, though the term "scientist" is adequate. If you continue to indulge in personal attacks, I intend to report the behaviour.
Most scientist do not want to cut genitals. ¿What should one call a scientist interested in cutting genitals?
You say:
I want to be whole complete intact and normal with better sexual function.
That's fine, but those are your motivations, not necessarily those of every restorer.
As I stated, rather than changing my stated motivations, ¿why not find out what motivates others? and add that information to the article.
¿What about that junk your camp slipped in about restorers being homosexuals with psychosexual problems?
It sounds like you're referring to Mohl et al. It's a valid scientific study. If you object to it, why not also include scientific research giving your POV? Deleting scientific research simply because you don't like it is not NPOV.
It is junkscience because it is demonstratably wrong. Most restorers are heterosexual well-adjusted men.
Look, I'm sorry you have suffered from anorgasmia, and I'm sorry that you believe it's due to circumcision, but from what you've said, it seems overwhelmingly probable that it's psychosomatic. Are you aware that depression is a known cause of many sexual dysfunctions?
¡Oh! ¡That must be it! ¡Depression causes tight painful erections!
- Jakew 10:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio 20:11, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Ŭalabio, you say:
Bleustein tested sensitivity to vibration. How much vibration are we talking about here? Sure, if men were resting pneumatic drills on their penes, I can see your point.
You ask:
You've already answered that question perfectly well with that description.
You describe Mohl's study as:
I ask you for your evidence. I have none available regarding sexuality of restorers, but as for well-adjusted, that seems unlikely. There is relatively little evidence in the literature, but half of the respondents in Hammond's survey of male anti-circers were restorers, so perhaps that is a good start. Half suffer low self esteem, 55% dysmorphophobia, 59% were depressed. 41% had problems with physical intimacy. Almost a third - 29% - had some kind of chemical or behavioural dependency problem. This hardly seems a good description of a well-adjusted man to me.- Jakew 20:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is very important information! People must know these facts about foreskin retorers. What an interesting yet alarming insight into the minds of these people. It is absolutely essential to any article on foreskin restoration. Please insert it all without delay! - Robert the Bruce 05:25, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
2004-10-17T20:34 (UTC), Jakew:
Ŭalabio, you say:
I not believe that anyone has disproven that vibration causes numbness
Bleustein tested sensitivity to vibration. How much vibration are we talking about here? Sure, if men were resting pneumatic drills on their penes, I can see your point.
¿How about the glans rubbing against underwear as the man walks?
You ask:
¿What should one call a scientist interested in cutting genitals?
You've already answered that question perfectly well with that description.
¿Circumcisiologist?
You describe Mohl's study as:
It is junkscience because it is demonstratably wrong. Most restorers are heterosexual well-adjusted men.
I ask you for your evidence. I have none available regarding sexuality of restorers, but as for well-adjusted, that seems unlikely. There is relatively little evidence in the literature, but half of the respondents in Hammond's survey of male anti-circers were restorers, so perhaps that is a good start. Half suffer low self esteem, 55% dysmorphophobia, 59% were depressed. 41% had problems with physical intimacy. Almost a third - 29% - had some kind of chemical or behavioural dependency problem. This hardly seems a good description of a well-adjusted man to me.
All of the respondents are sexually mutilated men. No wonder they are unhappy. Restoration has given me happiness. Let me tell you about someone very much like me I found at a restorationgroup:
I met a restorer in his eighties. Do to tight painful erections, he never orgasmed coitally. He does not want to die an half virgin (penetration but no orgasm) but he does not have much time left. His marriage disintegrated over fifty years ago over violent painful nonreproductive sex (if he worked very hard with petroleum jelly and a vice-like grip for over an hour, he could have something for artificial insemination, but that is not very husbandly). H tried coitus again over the years to the same disasterous effects with different women.
Imagine how much happier his life would have been if he would have discovered Præputial Restoration sixty years ago. Better yet, imagine how much better his whole life would be if the greedy Ob/Gyn never would have sexually mutilated him.
- Jakew 20:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ŭalabio 21:58, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
Acegikmo1. Your efforts are not very helpful. All it seems you are hoping to achieve is to keep the pot boiling. A few points which seem to be lost on you.
Finally, I suggest it is time you drop the pretense of being an "honest broker" in this. State rather you POV openly and resist the temptation of trying to POV push by stealth and misrepresentation. - Robert the Bruce 09:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
People, I've just tried to stop this ludicrous revert war getting out of hand. I've edited the article into what I hope is a good compromise. Can we please try to get some agreement on this? - Jakew 18:13, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP, I believe that we should address circumcision in the circumcision article(s), and restoration in this one. If we're to have a discussion of the psychological aspects, then surely it's reasonable to present both sides?
Continuing editing towards a compromise. Comments:
- Jakew 19:30, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding (de-)keratinisation, if they're reporting the appearance of peeling or sloughing of tissue, then it seems reasonable to say so. - Jakew 20:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC) Addendum: Would you prefer "to increase their sexual sensitivity"? This might be less likely to be confused with "net gain" (I have to say I find it unlikely that it'd be read that way, but in the spirit of compromise...)
I'm happy with "try to improve sensitivity". I deleted "sensory changes", because it's redundant after "improve sensitivity". I'm happy with the changes in "young men". Do you have any supporting evidence regarding delay of ejaculation?
I've incorporated some of the scientific studies into your (DanP's) structure for anecdotal reports. - Jakew 21:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that Jakew's edits have improve the neutrality and accuracy of the article quite a bit. The wording about the claimed benefits of foreskin restoration has been improved, while other information has been changed to reflect the context better. I'm comfortable with the current version of the article, though I think the following changes might be appropriate:
Acegikmo1 22:54, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Acegikmol, you raise some good points. I agree that the sentence beginning "men who have lost" could use some work. It feels very awkward in the choice of words.
I've deleted "sensory changes", since I intended to do so earlier (see above). I believe that we should cover purpose (or motivation) separately from the effects, in order to avoid confusion.
To be fair, all methods of restoration can result in a net loss of sensitivity (even skin expansion, the least invasive method, decreases the density of nerve endings as an inevitable result of increasing surface area). As you imply, success must be measured against the purpose. - Jakew 23:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Logically, Dan, the density of nerve endings must reduce, since the number of nerves is fixed. But I feel we're getting side-tracked here. Evidence regarding ejaculation is decidedly contradictory - while CIRP do list a few references, they look decidedly weak. There's also Senkul and Laumann's studies which show greater time to ejaculate. But, in fairness, all of these compare circumcised with uncircumcised rather than with restored, so although it may well be applicable, we're speculating somewhat. For purposes of the article, I've changed the wording slightly - see what you think. I've included the sensitivity study (who is Richard?), as the implications of this for restoration have been specifically discussed in the BMJ. My understanding of NPOV is that instead of trying to silence one viewpoint, we include a contrasting viewpoint as well. Therefore, I don't object in principle to your including a discussion paragraph, though we'll doubtless have to thrash out the contents! - Jakew 09:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Jakew. I'm am not sure the leaving out of the Hammond findings on significant mental patholgy and substance abuse among foreskin restorers contributes to the quality of this article. Somehow these sad sick people have come to focus on their lack of a foreskin as the reason for all their ills. Whatever the cause of their mental condition it remains clear that more than half are very sick puppies. I mean who in their right mind would embark on years of hanging weights from their penis? Surely the best way to solve this "problem" is through hypnosis and not bizarre gentially focused rituals? The Hammond findings should be included. I will add them unless a very persuasive argument is made to the contrary. - Robert the Bruce 17:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
When some men learn the following facts about male circumcision they become justifiably angry:
When they learn these facts some men feel that their basic human rights were violated when a normal, healthy part of their penis was cut off without a valid medical indication in the same way they feel that the basic human rights of girls in Africa are violated by female genital cutting. -- DanBlackham 21:35, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While those facts may well be so (with the exception of the "specialized" nerves), the fact remains that only a relatively small number of men actually develop these psychiatric symptoms. Logic, then, suggests that something predisposes them to reacting in such a manner. It's difficult to know what, precisely, this is, and I hope that future research will address these issues, but based upon my own encounters as well as the work of Mohl et al, it seems to be a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder. This is of course a generalisation, and there are doubtless exceptions, but it seems that in many cases there is a sense of dissatisfaction with life, and often sex in particular, and "discovering" that something has been taken away from one is the perfect scapegoat - something that wasn't one's fault. Just some thoughts to ponder. - Jakew 22:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I think I see what you're aiming at with the keratinisation changes, but the fact is that Szabo and Short found no difference in any male. I've suggested 'among those studied' as a compromise. I have reintroduced the sensitivity data again - as I've said before, neutrality does not mean censoring one viewpoint. By all means, however, add a "some consider Bleustein's research to be inaccurate, however..." paragraph, but please stop trying to delete it altogether! - Jakew 23:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Restoration needs no scapegoat, but the motivations behind it may (or indeed may not). Discussion of motivations is not hate speech and in the context of this (talk) page is quite legitimate. Regarding keratin and the glans, I have made (yet another) attempt at neutrality. I'm not happy with "some men" phrasing when referring to comparative scientific research - the research suggests that the anecdotal reports are anomalous, not vice-versa. I believe that my new phrasing is NPOV. - Jakew 01:23, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, To be fair, not all motivations are consciously understood, so it may be unrealistic to say that anyone truly knows their motivations. It isn't accurate to say that the glans of a restorer is different from that of an uncircumcised or circumcised man - while the penis differs slightly, the glans does not (or, if it does, this has yet to be documented). In my view, it's unsurprising that the circumcision article has a lot of scientific data - it is, after all, a scientific subject. I'm sorry that you find this detrimental to the article. Back to this article (like any other), we must ensure that statements are reasonable and factual. At present, science offers the best way of arriving at truth - what else is there? My intent isn't to brand restorers as psychopaths, but to better understand and describe. If we imagine that someone is depressed and obsessed with a missing foreskin, that offers a better understanding regarding why he might want to do this, doesn't it? It's irrational to be offended by a clinical description of that state, just as it would be irrational to be offended by being described as 'suffering from flu'. - Jakew 22:37, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Dan, I think that a motivations paragraph would be most interesting. I wouldn't oppose such an inclusion, provided that statements were backed up with scientific evidence (as opposed to empty speculation). In principle, you're correct that it isn't strictly accurate to say that the glans is the same, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is perhaps the most logical assumption. While you're correct that studies do not address restoration specifically, isn't restoration fundamentally based on the idea of replicating the uncircumcised anatomy as closely as possible? Either coverage has an effect, or it does not. If it does, then it must be a measurable effect. Logical? - Jakew 23:23, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
We need to get the overview right. I have made the necessary initial change. The next one should include the psycho sexual motivation behind this bizarre practice. I accept that there will be resistance to any wording along those lines so I will see what suggested wording others may introduce before offering my own version. - Robert the Bruce 02:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I removed, "...the erroneous belief that it will improve sensitivity. However, most restorers have a more base psychosexual motivation."
The belief hasn't been proven "erroneous"; One study that found no difference in the sensitivity of the glans in uncircumcised and circumcised men is hardly proof that foreskin restoration has no effect on sensitivity.
I removed the second sentence for a similar reason: no evidence was provided that "restorers have a more base psychosexual motivation", so the addition of this statement is a biased attack. I have left in Robert's addition, (The motivation behind the desire for foreskin restoration is complex in nature and stems from an emotional or physcological need to achieve a sense of "completion" or "wholeness".), but I'd like to see some references to back it up.
Acegikmo1 05:56, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that Robert the Bruce is correct in that the overview does require some work. The questions this article needs to answer, in effect, are: "what is it?" "why do people do that?" "how do they do it?" and "what are the consequences?" (have I missed any?). In my opinion, we should delete the sentence "Men who have lost their foreskin through circumcision..." from the introduction, and expand the overview, possibly creating a "motivation" section to cover the second question. In my view, the question "why on earth would anyone want to do that?" remains totally unaddressed in this article, and we should at least attempt to answer that.
Acegikmo1, instead of the word "erroneous", would you be happy with "questionable" or "controversial"?
Robert the Bruce, I think that we should avoid judgmental words like "bizarre", and preferably "psychosexual". NPOV dictates that we should allow the evidence to speak for itself and let the reader decide. Agreed?
- Jakew 09:58, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanBlackham, there is a great difference between perceived and actual sensitivity. I don't doubt that many men perceive improved sensitivity, but that doesn't imply that there is an empirical difference. Neither your opinion nor mine should form the basis of the structure of this article. An understanding of the relative merits of various kinds of evidence shows that anecdotal evidence is less valuable than comparative scientific research (consider the fallacy of the striking instance). The POV should not come into the equation, since for a POV to be relevant, the analysis must be subjective rather than objective. - Jakew 11:11, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I believe the linked article "How does male circumcision protect against HIV infection" for the keratin research is a cheap promotional for circumcision. Please consider finding a different article with less pro-mutilation spin. This article shouldn't get caught up in that debate, or else we really should balance by including links to information about restoration not being needed, had circumcision been avoided in the first place. We should either present both sides, or leave the topic in its correct article. DanP 23:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP, do you have any specific objections to Szabo and Short's ground-breaking paper, other than a dislike for the general theme? The paper does present a finding that is highly relevant to the topic of restoration, and censoring it based solely on a whim is highly inappropriate. The Wiki article should be neither pro-circumcision nor anti-. Nor should it be pro-restoration or anti- (I remind you that restoration and circumcision have both been described as mutilations). We should provide references to back up statements, where appropriate, but aside from reinforcing a point, it's difficult to see why they should be inappropriate. - Jakew 10:45, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You obviously don't regard it as a mutilation, DanP, and that's fair enough. It is a subjective term after all. I'm sorry that you don't like Szabo and Short's "theme", but that doesn't affect the relevance of their finding. If you like, you could change the link to my review instead [4]. As far as research "opposing" circumcision goes, if it introduces some data that is directly relevant, then I don't object to the inclusion (I've quoted "opposing", since true science should simply present the facts with neutrality; it should neither advocate nor oppose). - Jakew 18:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dan, saying "research should not..." is a value judgement that science, ideally, is supposed to be free from. Really good science asks about and states the painfully obvious. If referencing the article added nothing of relevance, then I would agree that it should be removed, but the finding relating to keratinisation is highly relevant to restoration, and I think that removing the study would be to the detriment of the article. As far as mutilation goes, I guess some might regard body building as a mutilation. A better example, perhaps, would be the stretching of the ear lobes. Some people see this as mutilation. I'm not saying that they're right - just that it is subjective. But, as I said, this discussion is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you'd like to continue, can I suggest we discuss by email? - Jakew 20:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In reference to terms used in the article, I believe we should fix some terms which are inconsistently applied. I hope we can come to agreement here, since Robert's changes are somewhat confusing.
Circumcised men - Although I think the term is OK in moderation, it sounds like it "defines" the man like it's a race or something. I believe it would be appropriate here to treat this like other procedures. For instance, we don't say "tonsillectomized men" -- we just say a man who had a tonsillectomy.
Restorers - Restoration isn't a job, or a hobby, or some kind of profession. Certainly nobody self-applies that term, that I know of. The accurate phrase should just be: a man choosing foreskin restoration. For instance, a person who does their own pedicure is not a pedicurer. Restorer just doesn't work very well, IMO. When possible, we should use verbs to say what a person does, not what a person is.
Psychiatric - Robert has stuck this and other negative-POV stuff in here. If there are mental patients who restore, that is already clearly mentioned, even though the circumcision article does not contain psychiatric analyses. But the effort to constantly push POV beyond actual demographics should be reverted.
Anti-circumcision - As covered before, not all men who restore are active in genital integrity, nor is genital integrity against all circumcision. There are a few who restore that are concerned with themselves, figuring it won't be helpful to them personally to involve political baggage, and there many who simply don't care to get involved. Whether a person is for or against circumcision (adult or infant) should be left out, unless we want to include a paragraph on social and political aspects. I'd be fine with such a paragraph, although it's not tied strongly to the article. Few other voluntary body modifications have social and political paragraphs intertwined unless it's essential to understanding the topic. Alleged,reported,claimed - All perfectly fine in themselves, whether it supports or denies a physical change. But to string together several qualifiers all in the same sentence only serves to use loaded words to tell the reader "don't make up your own mind". Please use a neutral qualifier to leave the reader a choice. DanP 20:30, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Although the Hammond poll mentions restoration briefly, the material focuses on consequences of circumcision. Whether or not a man chooses restoration is only one small part of the poll, and the whole BJU article is far more relevant to the circumcision article. I believe it is better to leave this article for restoration, not the circumcision debate. DanP 20:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While he is a leading anti-circ activist, more relevant is the fact that he is co-founder of the National Organization of Restoring Men (NORM). - Jakew 09:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The one thing we do know for sure is that circumcision of children is NOT medically necessary. That is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of every professional medical organization in the world that has a policy on circumcision. That is why the circumcision debate is now centered on ethics and human rights. -- DanBlackham 10:18, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, why did you delete the link to National Organization of Restoring Men from the "External links" section on October 26? -- DanBlackham 10:05, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jakew, according to the Taylor study, "smooth muscle bundles are common to both shaft skin and preputial mucosa". As I understand it, the tightness of the natural foreskin is attributed to the ridged band. The article should mention this distinction with restored foreskins, which still have dartos muscle, but are not as snug usually. Any recommendations on rewording? I am open to ideas here. DanP 19:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, why not just call it the Dartos muscle? That's what it is, after all. - Jakew 20:05, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That seems best actually. DanP 22:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, please stop your ad hominem attacks on Dr. Taylor. Dr. Taylor's article is an accurate description of the cellular anatomy of the foreskin. [5] He found that an intact male's foreskin has a high concentration of specialized nerve cells. -- DanBlackham 08:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, some of this debate about ridged bands should move to the foreskin article. It is not exclusive to restoration. The mixture of POV about who is against or for circumcision -- again, not relevant here and it can move to the circumcision article. Restoration is after the fact. I didn't really see the need to put anything in the article from Hammond's poll, since it covers circumcision damage and is far enough removed from an encyclopedic description of foreskin restoration. But it is there, physical (which is what restoration mainly is) and psychological, even though restoration is only minimally mentioned in the poll. Plainly, Robert's POV is one thing I cannot find in Hammond's article whatsoever. DanP 23:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, in your edit of 23:01, 4 Nov 2004, you incorrectly described your edit as "Removing the POV insertions". In fact, it was a wholesale revert to an earlier version more favourable to your POV. Why? - Jakew 23:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that it's reasonable to assume that a circumcision has been done (though, as the article notes, some men want to stretch a natural foreskin). If you compare the Hammond paragraph as it first appeared with what's present now, you'll see that it is essentially neutral. It isn't appropriate to quote Hammond verbatim, since it's off-topic. Hammond's article was a propaganda piece, intended to give the impression of circumcision "causing" all these harms. In that context, it's absurd to cite it at all (aside from the fact that all participants were selected based upon their contacting an activist group, there wasn't even an attempt at providing a control group). However, once one recognises that it provides an informative and useful picture of male anti-circers and foreskin restorers, it does have a small amount of value. The present description is non-judgemental, reporting both physical and psychological aspects from this poll, and (importantly) does so in a way that's relevant to the subject matter. - Jakew 18:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, could you explain what you meant in your edit summary: "Many of those changes are not even in Hammond's work."
Actually, it was limited to male anti-circumcision activists, though Hammond doesn't use those words. He's rather vague about how they were recruited in the paper. However, elsewhere [6], he explains: "In 1993, The National Organization to Halt the Routine Mutilation of Men (NOHARMM) sent a questionnaire to circumcised males who had contacted either the national office of NOHARMM in San Francisco, California, or various foreskin restoration support services that work closely with NOHARMM." Now think for a moment, who contacts and assists an organisation to halt the "abuse and routine mutilation of males" but an activist? Contacting an anti-circumcision organisation, and filling out a "harm documentation form" is in itself a form of anti-circumcision activism! - Jakew 19:22, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Although it's a little long-winded, I've changed the wording to: "In a poll of men who had either contacted an anti-circumcision organization or a foreskin restoration group". That's completely factual and NPOV. - Jakew 20:23, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've taken some of your changes, and changed them where necessary. I think you went a bit off-topic in some places, so I've tried to correct that. I'll gladly explain my changes if you want. - Jakew 00:07, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I think you're right about "controversial" attempt. The belief is controversial, but the attempt is not. I've changed it.
I don't believe that there's an emphasis on anti-circumcision. Under physical aspects, Hammond's poll describes physical problems that restorers might want to rectify, and anti-circ organisations are mentioned by way of introduction. Later on, in the appropriate section, we discuss psychological problems. We should refrain from ranting about consequences of circumcision, particularly since causation hasn't been established. It also isn't known whether any problems mentioned are present in the wider population, and indeed there's reason to doubt that. None of this discussion would benefit the article whatsoever. Let's stick to what's known and relevant to the subject at hand - what symptoms men might hope to resolve through restoration.
I moved Goodwin's study to the section where it belongs (physical aspects). I made some minor changes to the wording, and incorporated a neutral form of the placebo sentence. - Jakew 00:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've incorporated a few of your changes, but not all of them. - Jakew 01:04, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Several of the statements in this article concerning the Hammond poll fail to note that the physical and psychological consequences are a result of circumcision, not restoration. Hammond's poll was not exclusively on restoration, so leaving out the true basis of the poll leaves the numbers incorrectly represented here. For that reason, I am reverting once again until this, and the other extrapolations Hammond never published, can be explained as to its factual basis. DanP 18:48, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There's no reason to suppose that the physical and psychological problems were a result of circumcision, so we shouldn't say they were. All we know from Hammond is that these problems were common among men who choose to restore (and who contact NOHARMM). A control group and representative sample would be necessary in order to establish causation (as I discussed above). - Jakew 19:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
DanP, I agree that Hammond's article characterises the problems as consequences of circumcision, but - as explained - there's no evidence for that. Since the respondents were circumcised (as the title suggests) at an early age, they would be unable to know whether their problems existed prior to their circumcision, and so are not in a position to determine causation either.
Stating that the problems were consequences is pushing a point of view. So too is stating that they were not. Simply saying that they are problems, and not expressing a view one way or other is NPOV. Consequently, I'm reverting. - Jakew 20:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I understand, the respondents were merely asked to tick boxes for various problems. The conclusion that these were consequences of circumcision was Hammond's. Regardless, interpretation is POV, while facts are not. Let's stick with the facts. - Jakew 23:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
True, Hammond does claim that these are consequences, but they are not. It's important to recognise the difference between reality and reporting. Unfortunately, they're very different in this case. As I understand, neither of us dispute the problems reported, only the cause. If you're determined to discuss the matter in the article, then I suggest we add a paragraph in which we can analyse possible causes. - Jakew 23:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Talking about deep analysis is ridiculous: we've no disagreement about including facts, but daft POV interpretations are inappropriate. - Jakew 00:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that the "consequences" are not in fact problems? - Jakew 18:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The fact remains that the points noted are, unquestionably, problems, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are consequences. From a neutral point of view, we cannot truthfully call them consequences, but must call them problems, symptoms, or use similar language. The article is not, after all, about circumcision, but is about restoration. A poll that includes such a high percentage of restorers is surely relevant. - Jakew 12:49, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You're correct that we have only the respondents word that the problems do indeed exist (Having caught a few anti-circers lying, I have my doubts). It's reasonable to say that the problems were reported, however. Since you agree that there's no evidence of consequence, surely you must agree that describing them as 'problems' rather than 'consequences' is more precise, and neither endorses the POV that they are consequences of circumcision, or that they are not. It is neutral. - Jakew 15:23, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dan, you're confusing me with Robert, who wrote about "serious mental problems" above. While it's true that there is a lack of evidence of such problems existing prior to circumcision, a lack of evidence is distinct from evidence of lack of problems. There is a difference between data and interpretation, as I'm sure you're aware. Hammond's talk of "consequences" is interpretation, though the numbers themselves are data. If we're going to allow one interpretation (Hammond's), then we must also include an alternative POV. Alternatively, we could just use neutral language like 'problems'.
Incidentally, I didn't mean to suggest that all respondents were dishonest about the cause - I do believe that these people genuinely believe any problems to be caused by circumcision (I don't necessarily agree, but I am confident that they believe). It's the problems themselves, rather than their cause, that I'm skeptical about. I'm sure that they aren't all imaginary, but I suspect that quite a few are. - Jakew 17:31, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jakew, I have explained how your version repeatedly makes false statements in misrepresenting poll data. Not to mention leaving Roberts "psychiatric" analysis in play. Why do you need to trash this article? I am sure you can reword, as Theresa's version does, so that no POV in either direction is presented to the reader. Otherwise, if the supporters of foreskin restoration are fair game in your book, why not allow psychiatric reports about the critics of it? That allows for both sides, does it not? DanP 23:38, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please explain why you reverted my change of the word expansion to stretching? I don't understand your reasoning that you gave in the edit summary. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 06:39, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree - it should definitely say 'stretching'. That must somehow have been lost. I've incorporated the change. - Jakew 19:29, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps if we slowed the editing right down. The trouble with making sweeping changes is that it is tempting to revert because of issues with some of those changes. So - what's this T tape thing Dan keeps adding, and why is it being removed? Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 14:56, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Robert, please try to compromise on this. You know very well that we can endlessly point out the lack of sanity or Believe it or not rationale among those seeking needless circumcision of babies. Whether you believe one thing, or you believe another, your beliefs are no better than anyone else's. There is no reason to place judgement right in an article and delete information merely because you disagree with someone. The philosophy of deleting POV judgement in articles is something you've constantly been pursuing in circumcision-related articles, so I'd love to hear your explanation why you do the opposite here and choose to insert POV judgement. We can at least be consistent, if not in agreement. DanP 18:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
RTB: please explain your recent reverts. The user's contributions seemed entirely neutral to me, whereas your reverts do not. Exploding Boy 17:46, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Very well. Please explain exactly how they are not neutral. Exploding Boy 17:08, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
Pardon? Look, if you can't explain why the above edits are, in your opinion, non-neutral, then I'm going to revert your deletion of them. Exploding Boy 17:00, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
I've had quite enough of you and and your sanctimoniuos and arrogant posturing, both on this page (and several related ones) and on various user talk pages. You talk and talk and talk about discussing reverts on article talk pages, but you don't do it yourself. You were the one who reverted another user's edits, so you need to explain why. If you can't do so, then there's clearly no good reason for your reversion, and it will be reversed. Exploding Boy 21:16, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
Since you are either unwilling or unable to discuss/defend your edits, I have reverted them. Continueing your pattern of refusing to discuss your edits even when explicitly requested to do so will be taken as vandalism and dealt with accordingly. Exploding Boy 16:51, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
This conversation is over unless you would like to address the question repeated several times above. For the last time, the onus is on you, as the editor, to defend your edits. Let me know when you'd like to continue the discussion. Exploding Boy 20:55, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Exploding Boy, I agree with most of your changes. However, the section on dartos muscle should not refer to just a ring of muscle. Dartos was inserted as a compromise with regard to the ridged band, which was previously objected to with regard to muscular function. I didn't see an issue with having ridged band, but the dartos is more general and extends all the way to the scrotum. The article should reflect that only a small portion of it extends out to the foreskin acting to hold it in place. DanP 18:54, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I already did explain them. Your removal of relevant, neutral information constitutes pushing a non-neutral point of view. Further, your edit summary and your refusal to discuss your edits reveal that your continued reverts to this page constitute vandalism. To that end, I will be listing you for comment. I'll leave a link on your talk page when I do. Exploding Boy 21:05, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
It is valid to include the word 'psychiatric' in this context. After all, this section briefly discussed Mohl's article, "Prepuce Restoration Seekers: Psychiatric Aspects". - Jakew 22:29, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Such concepts as OCD are inherently psychiatric, rather than psychological. The aspects discussed are psychiatic, in part. The reader can draw from that what he will. - Jakew 21:06, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, it isn't as though we're replacing "emotional and psychological" with "psychiatric". It's just an addition. The only reason that I can see for objecting to the extra information is wanting to hide the (apparently real) possibility that many of these men have psychiatic issues. We shouldn't say that they do, either, but it is fair to quote medical literature on the subject accurately. - Jakew 21:57, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree the word "psychological" is loaded. It carries a very strong anti-foreskin restoration POV. -- DanBlackham 11:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
We are writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Sun newspaper. I find it astonishing that an editor is suggesting that we leave the word "psychiatric" out of a heading because none of the people in a study was "psychotic" and "psychiatric" implies some sort of "nutter". Well, neither are the overwhelming majority of people who are under treatment for psychiatric disorders. Most of them have depression or anxiety that will never progress to psychosis (although the treatments they take for it might conceivably induce it). I think talk of people with psychiatric disorders as "nutters" should be deplored here, not encouraged, and I do deplore it. And I certainly don't think we should pander to that kind of thinking in a serious work of reference. Dr Zen 00:39, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well said, Dr Zen. We are supposed to educate, not pander to illiteracy. - Jakew 12:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK I'm convinced. Leave it in. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 12:25, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First, let me say that this section (Critics and supporters) is absurd. Nevertheless, let's see what can be done with it, at least for now.
I've changed the title to the title of this section. It's marginally more valid to talk about different attitudes towards some activity, I suppose.
I've reworded the first paragraph, to better explain the views of those opposed (it's still not very good, but at least an improvement). It's also invalid to link to some dumb anti-circer grumbling about what opponents think of him, in this context. It would be marginally more appropriate to link to criticisms themselves (eg here).
I've also changed the second paragraph a bit, and removed the last sentence, which was about infant circumcision, not foreskin restoration. Can you find something to say in support of foreskin restoration? - Jakew 18:37, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jake, you have no basis for saying skin bridges are less relevant than psychiatry or substance abuse. Indeed, with regard to the restoration article, they are more relevant, since this is an encyclopedia, not forum to judge one way or the other. Further, you have no basis for including POV against proponents of restoration, while leaving critics unscathed. Both of these issues are what you and Robert have slanted. While I fully welcome your POV (and Robert's too), you should at least allow opposing viewpoints. DanP 00:21, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)