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This article needs some cleaning up. Certain parts read like opinion or story telling and not up to the standard of factual history
Is this Tolstoy opinion, an entry of his journal or the contributor’s own opinion?
Who claim the Tibetans are unsophisticated? ( WannabeAmatureHistorian 20:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC))
Article appears to contain statements that appear to support the position of China having legitimite sovereignty over the area claimed by the Nation-State of Tibet. I will place the appropriate flag on this article.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Harrer was not in Tibet 1938 (Nazi German SS expedition to Tibet). I asked for reference, but I know this totally wrong. References to Harrer should be deleted from this paragraph.-- Rédacteur Tibet ( talk) 20:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
"Outline of Journey and Observation Made by Ilia Tolstoy, Captain, AUS and Brooke Dolan. First Lt., AC," September 1943, is in possession of the CIA. It was assigned the document number IOLR L/P&S/12/4229. It may or may not remain classified. The photographs were published in A Portrait of Lost Tibet, ISBN 0030504511 As the work of employees of the United States government made in the performance of their duties the text would be in the pubic domain if it could be accessed. Fred Talk 22:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Although done nominally in the name of NPOV this edit is itself a tendentious edit with a distinct point of view, two in fact: one that the British manipulated the status of Tibet in some way. The other that the nation of Tibet has somehow creased to exist and thus could not engage in foreign relations. Fred Talk 00:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
The text (to be clear, I reverted to a longstanding version of the article away from your recent and distinct POV changes) does not take a position on whether the British 'manipulated' the status of Tibet, but that Britain had wanted to, which is mainstream historical record. And, to use the terminology correctly, the nation of Tibet [at least according to sane people] has not "ceased to exist", but the sovereign state of Tibet certainly has. There are no more incidents that can be construed as foreign relations. Are you arguing that Tibet still conducts independent foreign relations? You should then explicate this argument to be examined, instead of just alluding to it, because that viewpoint is quite fringe.
Regarding the external links, the content guidelines on external links forbid "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research", and says, "On articles with multiple points of view, avoid providing links too great in number or weight to one point of view, or that give undue weight to minority views." All of those links do both of the prohibited manipulations to advance the minority viewpoint of an independent Tibet during the early 20th century period.
The article strongly emphasizes recognition as the essential element for statehood. It could be more strongly emphasized; although I don't high short of large bold text in red, but I don't think that justifies suppression of a point of view, and lots of interesting documents and images. I think there are several white papers, some perhaps more detailed. Fred Talk 13:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
'Interesting' is subjective, but the images are definitely manipulative. Picture after picture of Tibetan currency, flags, and soldiers during the contentious early 20th century period strongly suggest to the uninformed reader an independent Tibet, but legally these superficial indicators do not necessarily indicate statehood. This is something that can and should be discussed in balanced prose. All of the important 'legal documents', Simla and the like, are discussed here with the appropriate context, such as Simla's possible illegality. Any other material both important and not mentioned here should be cited to those links but balanced here, to maintain editorial discretion, better the article, and improve its conformance with NPOV. Quigley ( talk) 02:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
This passage from the lede is quite misleading:
In the 20th century, Tibet began to fracture as a British invasion, Qing counterinvasion, and the fall of the Qing created almost what the British had wanted: [1] an "inner Tibet" and an "outer Tibet", with the former under Chinese Republican control, but the latter under the 13th Dalai Lama. [1]"
The main problem is the statement that Tibet was fracturing in the 20th century. In fact, Tibet was becoming more politically centralized than it had been at any time in recent memory. The connection between Tibet and Beijing was fracturing. An additional problem is the over-emphasis on British agency, at the expense of the Tibetan government, the central Chinese government, and the local Chinese warlords in so-called "inner Tibet". The sentence reads in a confusing way, too, because it seems to imply that the British cared who ruled "inner Tibet" and that they had wanted it to be ruled by a republican government, which didn't even exist before 1912.— Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 19:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
To go back to the quoted passage, it is simply unsourced. Fred Talk 20:22, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
References
Tibetan foreign relations did not cease immediately after the 17-point agreement was accepted in 1951. As Melvyn Goldstein describes in A History of Modern Tibet, Volume 2 (pg. 412), the old Tibetan government's Foreign Affairs Bureau continued to exist until 1952 or later, when it was merged into the new Tibet Foreign Affairs Department (西藏外事处). Even at that point, Tibet still had an unusual international profile, since a) most province-level entities don't have foreign affairs departments, and b) the new Foreign Affairs Department was jointly run by the Chinese government and by the old Tibetan government. I'm not sure at what point the Tibet Foreign Affairs Department ceased functioning; it may have lasted until 1959, or it may have been eliminated during the 1956-1959 period when PCTAR was becoming more powerful.— Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 19:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe at the enthronement of the 13th Dalai Lama the British, Chinese, and Mongols were in attendance in very much the way that would be expected at 'state' occasions. It is at minimum an enormous over simplification to say that the government of the Dalai Lama's was never recognized internationally. Tibetologist ( talk)
A google search for "inner tibet" OR "outer tibet" returns 17k hits, second and third being Tibet (1912–1951) and Simla Accord (1914) but this is not a term which is transparently understandable despite its mirroring of Inner and Outer Mongolia. Fred Talk 23:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
To suggest Hale, Christopher. 2003. Himmler's Crusade: The true story of the 1938 Nazi expedition into Tibet. Transworld Publishers. London. ISBN 0-593-04952-7 as further reading is a joke, I think? Himmler never made a crusade to Tibet. This sensationalist book is not helpful as further reading and does not fulfil the standards for this section. I replaced the book by proper scientific research. 213.182.68.42 ( talk) 23:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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This article needs some cleaning up. Certain parts read like opinion or story telling and not up to the standard of factual history
Is this Tolstoy opinion, an entry of his journal or the contributor’s own opinion?
Who claim the Tibetans are unsophisticated? ( WannabeAmatureHistorian 20:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC))
Article appears to contain statements that appear to support the position of China having legitimite sovereignty over the area claimed by the Nation-State of Tibet. I will place the appropriate flag on this article.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Harrer was not in Tibet 1938 (Nazi German SS expedition to Tibet). I asked for reference, but I know this totally wrong. References to Harrer should be deleted from this paragraph.-- Rédacteur Tibet ( talk) 20:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
"Outline of Journey and Observation Made by Ilia Tolstoy, Captain, AUS and Brooke Dolan. First Lt., AC," September 1943, is in possession of the CIA. It was assigned the document number IOLR L/P&S/12/4229. It may or may not remain classified. The photographs were published in A Portrait of Lost Tibet, ISBN 0030504511 As the work of employees of the United States government made in the performance of their duties the text would be in the pubic domain if it could be accessed. Fred Talk 22:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Although done nominally in the name of NPOV this edit is itself a tendentious edit with a distinct point of view, two in fact: one that the British manipulated the status of Tibet in some way. The other that the nation of Tibet has somehow creased to exist and thus could not engage in foreign relations. Fred Talk 00:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
The text (to be clear, I reverted to a longstanding version of the article away from your recent and distinct POV changes) does not take a position on whether the British 'manipulated' the status of Tibet, but that Britain had wanted to, which is mainstream historical record. And, to use the terminology correctly, the nation of Tibet [at least according to sane people] has not "ceased to exist", but the sovereign state of Tibet certainly has. There are no more incidents that can be construed as foreign relations. Are you arguing that Tibet still conducts independent foreign relations? You should then explicate this argument to be examined, instead of just alluding to it, because that viewpoint is quite fringe.
Regarding the external links, the content guidelines on external links forbid "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research", and says, "On articles with multiple points of view, avoid providing links too great in number or weight to one point of view, or that give undue weight to minority views." All of those links do both of the prohibited manipulations to advance the minority viewpoint of an independent Tibet during the early 20th century period.
The article strongly emphasizes recognition as the essential element for statehood. It could be more strongly emphasized; although I don't high short of large bold text in red, but I don't think that justifies suppression of a point of view, and lots of interesting documents and images. I think there are several white papers, some perhaps more detailed. Fred Talk 13:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
'Interesting' is subjective, but the images are definitely manipulative. Picture after picture of Tibetan currency, flags, and soldiers during the contentious early 20th century period strongly suggest to the uninformed reader an independent Tibet, but legally these superficial indicators do not necessarily indicate statehood. This is something that can and should be discussed in balanced prose. All of the important 'legal documents', Simla and the like, are discussed here with the appropriate context, such as Simla's possible illegality. Any other material both important and not mentioned here should be cited to those links but balanced here, to maintain editorial discretion, better the article, and improve its conformance with NPOV. Quigley ( talk) 02:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
This passage from the lede is quite misleading:
In the 20th century, Tibet began to fracture as a British invasion, Qing counterinvasion, and the fall of the Qing created almost what the British had wanted: [1] an "inner Tibet" and an "outer Tibet", with the former under Chinese Republican control, but the latter under the 13th Dalai Lama. [1]"
The main problem is the statement that Tibet was fracturing in the 20th century. In fact, Tibet was becoming more politically centralized than it had been at any time in recent memory. The connection between Tibet and Beijing was fracturing. An additional problem is the over-emphasis on British agency, at the expense of the Tibetan government, the central Chinese government, and the local Chinese warlords in so-called "inner Tibet". The sentence reads in a confusing way, too, because it seems to imply that the British cared who ruled "inner Tibet" and that they had wanted it to be ruled by a republican government, which didn't even exist before 1912.— Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 19:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
To go back to the quoted passage, it is simply unsourced. Fred Talk 20:22, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
References
Tibetan foreign relations did not cease immediately after the 17-point agreement was accepted in 1951. As Melvyn Goldstein describes in A History of Modern Tibet, Volume 2 (pg. 412), the old Tibetan government's Foreign Affairs Bureau continued to exist until 1952 or later, when it was merged into the new Tibet Foreign Affairs Department (西藏外事处). Even at that point, Tibet still had an unusual international profile, since a) most province-level entities don't have foreign affairs departments, and b) the new Foreign Affairs Department was jointly run by the Chinese government and by the old Tibetan government. I'm not sure at what point the Tibet Foreign Affairs Department ceased functioning; it may have lasted until 1959, or it may have been eliminated during the 1956-1959 period when PCTAR was becoming more powerful.— Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 19:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe at the enthronement of the 13th Dalai Lama the British, Chinese, and Mongols were in attendance in very much the way that would be expected at 'state' occasions. It is at minimum an enormous over simplification to say that the government of the Dalai Lama's was never recognized internationally. Tibetologist ( talk)
A google search for "inner tibet" OR "outer tibet" returns 17k hits, second and third being Tibet (1912–1951) and Simla Accord (1914) but this is not a term which is transparently understandable despite its mirroring of Inner and Outer Mongolia. Fred Talk 23:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
To suggest Hale, Christopher. 2003. Himmler's Crusade: The true story of the 1938 Nazi expedition into Tibet. Transworld Publishers. London. ISBN 0-593-04952-7 as further reading is a joke, I think? Himmler never made a crusade to Tibet. This sensationalist book is not helpful as further reading and does not fulfil the standards for this section. I replaced the book by proper scientific research. 213.182.68.42 ( talk) 23:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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