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Archive 1 |
The Constitution of Vermont of July 8, 1777 states: That government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation or community; and not for the particular emolument or advantage of any single man, family or set of men, who are a part only of that community; and that the community hath an indubitable, unalienable and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish, government, in such manner as shall be, by that community, judged most conducive to the public weal.
Doesn't this suggest that the clause is more than simply about titles and also relates to any benefits that may come from the government, particularly, those not conducive to the general welfare of the nation?
That benefits that stem from service to the nation, or property given to support the nation, can only be with a given equivalent?
That, all owing service, may be allowed some benefit, in context of helping to support the stability and security of the nation, but not beyond?
NantucketNoon (
talk)
03:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to move this article to "Title of Nobility Clause". That seems to be a more common name for it, and corresponds more closely to this article's focus. See:
Shenon, Philip and Greenhouse, Linda. “Washington Talk: Briefing; The King and the Joker”, New York Times ( 1988-08-17): "This is the title of nobility clause, which provides: 'No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States'."
Wood, Diane. Our 18th Century Constitution in the 21st Century World. 80 New York University Law Review 1079, 1105 (2005): "Debate [over the Constitution's] meaning is inevitable whenever something as specific as the ... Titles of Nobility Clause is not at issue."
Ferrylodge ( talk) 04:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm assuming that one of the two is the bastille key, which he received from Lafayette (who I believe was stateless at the time since France was in the middle of a revolution) but I have no idea what the other one was. Does anyone have any clue? Or even better than a clue a source? -- Opcnup ( talk) 05:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to put in a section about how President Obama has violated this Constitutional clause? Void burn ( talk) 13:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Hey guys, I'm new so sorry for any jimmies that might get rustled. Some Czech lawyer named Yopsie already tried to drop the hammer on me with no explanation, but I see there might be ways to improve my contribution about May 20, 2017.
It's not my opinion that these events occurred. The straight up facts are that he accepted gifts, on camera, from a King, without Congressional approval and it was broadcast internationally today. I pulled relevant summaries of 3 national news articles (one of which i don't really like the title of, so I'll go change it). But if you have journalistic suggestions to better my copy, tone, style, etc. I'm all ears.
Are there particular sources you guys prefer for literally currently happening events? I have tons of choices of US news outlets showing the actual video, but nothing solidly making the connection to this Clause yet. That is my contribution. Ifatree ( talk) 06:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
It's not appropriate to use an opinion piece in the New York Times as a source in an article on the Constitution. We should use sources who are Constitutional scholars. Seth Tillman's (ref 16) assertion that this clause doesn't apply to elected officials is absurd when you imagine a case in which the President of the United States accepts the title Duke of Somerset and starts traveling to the UK to sit in the House of Lords. -- Tysto ( talk) 21:24, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
References
my position is that Office . . . under the United States reaches only holders of appointed federal statutory offices, not elected or constitutionally created positions.// Seth Barrett Tillman, "The Foreign Emoluments Clause Reached Only Appointed Officers", Interactive Constitution: Matters of Debate, National Constitution Center // Brief for Scholar Seth Barrett Tillman as Amicus Curiae in Support of the Defendant, Docket 37, Attachment 1 (PDF), vol. No. 1:17-cv-00458, S.D.N.Y., Jun 16, 2017
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Gretchen Frazee (Jun 22, 2017),
"How the emoluments clause is being used to sue Trump", PBS Newshour, Tillman goes further than many other scholars and also argues that the emoluments clause does not apply to the president because it is derived from a British law that refers to appointed rather than elected officials. The Department of Justice did not argue this point in its written defense.
Trump's business dealings may be a violation of this clause. ( NY Times). I think we should keep an eye on this. – Muboshgu ( talk) 18:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Muboshgu, your political bias has been clearly shown throughout all of your wiki edits. It's a disgrace and a shame you are an admin on here. I've went ahead and removed the Trump sections because they are clearly partisan edits and have no merit or proper fact based sources. Do not add them again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.94.17.209 ( talk) 15:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The Constitution of Vermont of July 8, 1777 states: That government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation or community; and not for the particular emolument or advantage of any single man, family or set of men, who are a part only of that community; and that the community hath an indubitable, unalienable and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish, government, in such manner as shall be, by that community, judged most conducive to the public weal.
Doesn't this suggest that the clause is more than simply about titles and also relates to any benefits that may come from the government, particularly, those not conducive to the general welfare of the nation?
That benefits that stem from service to the nation, or property given to support the nation, can only be with a given equivalent?
That, all owing service, may be allowed some benefit, in context of helping to support the stability and security of the nation, but not beyond?
NantucketNoon (
talk)
03:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to move this article to "Title of Nobility Clause". That seems to be a more common name for it, and corresponds more closely to this article's focus. See:
Shenon, Philip and Greenhouse, Linda. “Washington Talk: Briefing; The King and the Joker”, New York Times ( 1988-08-17): "This is the title of nobility clause, which provides: 'No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States'."
Wood, Diane. Our 18th Century Constitution in the 21st Century World. 80 New York University Law Review 1079, 1105 (2005): "Debate [over the Constitution's] meaning is inevitable whenever something as specific as the ... Titles of Nobility Clause is not at issue."
Ferrylodge ( talk) 04:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm assuming that one of the two is the bastille key, which he received from Lafayette (who I believe was stateless at the time since France was in the middle of a revolution) but I have no idea what the other one was. Does anyone have any clue? Or even better than a clue a source? -- Opcnup ( talk) 05:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to put in a section about how President Obama has violated this Constitutional clause? Void burn ( talk) 13:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Hey guys, I'm new so sorry for any jimmies that might get rustled. Some Czech lawyer named Yopsie already tried to drop the hammer on me with no explanation, but I see there might be ways to improve my contribution about May 20, 2017.
It's not my opinion that these events occurred. The straight up facts are that he accepted gifts, on camera, from a King, without Congressional approval and it was broadcast internationally today. I pulled relevant summaries of 3 national news articles (one of which i don't really like the title of, so I'll go change it). But if you have journalistic suggestions to better my copy, tone, style, etc. I'm all ears.
Are there particular sources you guys prefer for literally currently happening events? I have tons of choices of US news outlets showing the actual video, but nothing solidly making the connection to this Clause yet. That is my contribution. Ifatree ( talk) 06:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
It's not appropriate to use an opinion piece in the New York Times as a source in an article on the Constitution. We should use sources who are Constitutional scholars. Seth Tillman's (ref 16) assertion that this clause doesn't apply to elected officials is absurd when you imagine a case in which the President of the United States accepts the title Duke of Somerset and starts traveling to the UK to sit in the House of Lords. -- Tysto ( talk) 21:24, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
References
my position is that Office . . . under the United States reaches only holders of appointed federal statutory offices, not elected or constitutionally created positions.// Seth Barrett Tillman, "The Foreign Emoluments Clause Reached Only Appointed Officers", Interactive Constitution: Matters of Debate, National Constitution Center // Brief for Scholar Seth Barrett Tillman as Amicus Curiae in Support of the Defendant, Docket 37, Attachment 1 (PDF), vol. No. 1:17-cv-00458, S.D.N.Y., Jun 16, 2017
{{
citation}}
: |volume=
has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) //
Gretchen Frazee (Jun 22, 2017),
"How the emoluments clause is being used to sue Trump", PBS Newshour, Tillman goes further than many other scholars and also argues that the emoluments clause does not apply to the president because it is derived from a British law that refers to appointed rather than elected officials. The Department of Justice did not argue this point in its written defense.
Trump's business dealings may be a violation of this clause. ( NY Times). I think we should keep an eye on this. – Muboshgu ( talk) 18:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Muboshgu, your political bias has been clearly shown throughout all of your wiki edits. It's a disgrace and a shame you are an admin on here. I've went ahead and removed the Trump sections because they are clearly partisan edits and have no merit or proper fact based sources. Do not add them again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.94.17.209 ( talk) 15:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)