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I looked at this article for the first time today and it striked me as being overly chatty in Controversy section. Anti-gavage activity is clearly an important subject, but it does not really belong here. Foie gras is a food item, and I suspect that's what the bulk of readers expect the article to focus on. Discussion of how some people feel about force-feeding issues (either pro- or con-) is interesting and relevant, but it probably needs to go into WP article of its own and be cross-linked from this one. Alex Pankratov 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Vandalism:
Someone has gone through this article and reworked some of the areas. He is writing about some girl named Kate and renaming the cities after himself and friends (I assume). I'm going to try to remove as much as I can without destroying this article.
9 out of 144 birds is a lower mortality rate than US bred turkeys. Those levels seem to be entirely normal for the poultry industry. SchmuckyTheCat 17:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
SchmuckyTheCat, please stop your repeated reversions. If you have arguments, please discuss them. David Olivier 08:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"The EU report says the most significant damage to birds health begins to occur after 18 days" Where exactly does it say that? "It also states it would be uneconomical (poor quality product) if the birds were as unhealthy as critics charge." Where exactly does it say that?
I actually doubt very much that it says anything like that, except if in your mind ill health starts at being dead. In any case, your interpreting the EU report as saying that the animals are not in a pathological state is a wild interpretation to say the least. It is not supported by any citation, and is directly contradicted by at least one explicit citation ("For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological." p. 41) and by the numerous citations I quote below (in the "Clearly POV reverts" section).
David Olivier 17:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I put up the tag because this edit war that has been going on between 2 or 3 users means it's time to have more people discuss what should and shouldn't be in this article.-- Boffob 19:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not intersperse comments between my paragraphs. That makes the discussion unreadable. I have moved your comments above into a single block. David Olivier 10:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The article has been protected due to the ongoing edit war. The involved editors are requested to resolve the issue through discussion. Please note the protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. -- BorgQueen 20:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(Answer to Alex Pankratov et al.)
That my edits are "substantial" is not a defect. Neither is that they were not discussed beforehand; there is no rule saying that changes must be discussed beforehand.
You have not even started to show that my edits are POV. Neither has SmuckyTheCat.
Specifically, starting with my first Nov. 26 edit:
- I deleted the assertion that the EU report "also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." That statement is unsourced. SchmuckyTheCat has not attempted to source it. It is also in stark contradiction with the following statements made by the EU report:
- I completed a sentence stating "The timing of liver fattening is carefully controlled so the animal is slaughtered before mortality rates rise to uneconomical levels." I think that is plainly supported by the above EU Committee statements. I also supported it by a reference, taken from a practical book for force-feeders, that states that "No clear-cut sign indicates the moment the liver reaches its optimal quality. The tired aspect of the fattened birds, their enormous size, their gasping respiration, the increasing difficulty the animal displays in moving, are all indications. The fattened geese and ducks must be slaughtered on the site in order to avoid eventual deaths during transportation."
- I specified that while it is true that the force-feeding is reversible for most of the animals, if it is discontinued early enough, a significant number do not recover and die. I supported that by a reference.
- In specified that "It can also be noted that the fact that a condition can heal does not contradict its being pathological." That is plain common sense (and, if you really need to know, is supported by uncountable articles documenting non-lethal, reversible, pathological conditions in humans and other animals). It is also relevant, given that the argument is always quoted that the condition is not pathological since it is reversible.
- I noted that the dispute over whether the condition is or isn't pathological (independently from its being a source of suffering for the birds) is significant. I also noted why it is. I supported that by a quotation by a pro-foie gras journalist in a pro-foie gras newspaper.
- I deleted the qualification that the production of foie gras is "reportedly" illegal in Israel. There is no particular reason to doubt that. I can give you a reference to the Israel Supreme Court ruling if you really want to make me waste my time.
- I deleted the sentence "Several chefs have filed suit and the City Council is considering overturning the ban which generated outrage across the city." This is just POV hype. There are no mass demonstrations against the ban in Chicago. If you call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to the ban, you should also call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to foie gras. And mention both equally.
- I deleted a qualification saying that in the countries that are listed as prohibiting its production, its sale is not prohibited. That is true, but also badly worded as it was, and not necessary. Instead, I added a word about the sale itself being prohibited in Chicago; which makes clear that in the other places only the production is banned.
None of these points have been addressed by SchmuckyTheCat, or by anyone else. They have just been directly reverted, with no reason given, putting back among other things the dubious (to the least) statement about the EU Committee conclusions.
So please stop your senseless POV edit war. This is not the place for that.
David Olivier 21:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
You say: The EU report does not come to the conclusion that foie gras production puts the bird in a pathological state. The EU report states: For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological. (p.41). Who are we to believe: what you say it states, or what it actually does state? David Olivier 08:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, now please answer about your contention that "The EU report does not come to the conclusion that foie gras production puts the bird in a pathological state." How exactly do you make that compatible with what the report actually states: "For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological." (p.41)? David Olivier 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
A Tokaji website ( [2]) lists foie gras as a "classic" food to pair with Tokaji wine. Perhaps this could be mentioned under "presentation" such as »It is often served with a dessert wine such as Sauternes or Tokaji Aszú« because I also remember someone mentioning it when I was in Hungary. - Ich ( talk) 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It would seem that the ardent defensers of duck and goose stuffing have suddenly fallen silent; it seems they don't care to bring arguments, as long as the current state of the page satisfies their POV.
So I repeat my above question:
David Olivier 08:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, no reason to repeat the quote frome the EU report that says the liver is pathological; its just that you repeatedly wanted to add an assertion of yours saying that the condition was not pathological, while attributing that position to the same EU report. I am happy that you now agree that that assertion should be removed.
The rest of what you say is pure interpretation; and it is a wild interpretation, as can be readily recongnized by anyone who takes the trouble of reading the report itself.
David Olivier 12:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The changes in hepatocytes and other cells in the liver of force fed ducks and geese are substantial. The most obvious change is the increase in the number of large fat globules visible in the cells. A limited increase in the presence of fat globules in liver can occur in normal liver in certain conditions but no normal animal has steatosis of the liver to the extent which occurs in all force fed birds. During the force feeding period, liver function is impaired. Some pathologists consider this level of steatosis to be pathological but others do not. The steatosis is reversible in many birds but reversibility exists for many pathological states.
it would be illegal to sell the organs of an animal that was recognized as sick; the foie gras industry thus depends on the condition being declared non pathological
I have requested unprotection for this page. No one has answered my arguments above, so I conclude that the debate is over, and that I may implement the changes that explicitly or implicitly have been accepted. David Olivier 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to SchmuckyTheCat: My above discussion is too long simply because it goes to the trouble of sourcing what it says. It is not correct behaviour to contradict someone, give false arguments to that effect, and then just shun the answer when it is given. Please respond to my arguments (citing your sources) or desist.
In response to Boffob: About 80% of the article is about "look how tasty and glamourous and natural and traditional foie gras is". You want that to stay, but any contradictory evidence you call POV. That is as POV as you can get.
Concerning Chicago: That a couple of chefs in Chicago (your source says "a handful") are defying the ban is a rather tiny piece of information hardly worth inclusion, as anyone can easily recognize. To qualify that as "outrage across the city", as the sentence I deleted said, is a gross exageration, aimed at giving the impression that there was some kind of revolution there. Also unsourced and extremely vague was the contention that the City Council was considering overturning the ban. Frankly, that too is about as POV as you can get.
I don't intend to make the Foie gras article say that foie gras is pathological. It just happens that a serious study exists - the EU report - and it is fair to state its conclusions on that matter. Since foie gras defenders constantly repeat that the fattened liver is not diseased, it is also relevant to explain why (in their own words) that issue is important. Yes, all that is negative information concerning foie gras. That doesn't make including it POV. To state otherwise is preposterous.
I developed a long argument above. If all you have to say in response is three lines labeling my position POV, it means that you have no substantive answer to my arguments. The page should thus be unblocked.
David Olivier 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: Please do not insert answers between two paragraphs of the person you are answering to. That just makes the discussion impossible to read. I have moved your answer to after mine. David Olivier 17:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Considering that foie gras has been banned in a substantial part of the world - for instance in all 46 states of the Council of Europe, for instance, except in those three countries where it is already "current practice" ( Recommendation Concerning Muscovy Ducks (...) (a binding text), Standing Committee of the European Convention for the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes, June 1999), in Israel (which was a substantial producer), in one of the two US states where it was produced, and so on, and eaten only by a tiny fraction of the world population, it is hardly giving undue weight to give at least as much weight to the controversy as to the various ways you can cook the stuff which are of interest only to those few.
Your explanation as to why you do not answer my arguments is purely ad hominem, and thus in no way counts as an argument. You have engaged in an edit war against my edits, the page has been blocked, I have defended my positions with arguments, and you are to do the same or desist.
David Olivier 19:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: Just pointing to some article is not an argument. If you are suggesting that I suffer disconfirmation bias, you have to argue that.
Trevyn: A ban on the production of foie gras is a clear statement against that production.
Just saying that I twist words doesn't in itself prove I do. If you can find specific word twisting in my edits, please say so. Specifically, nothing in my edits suggested that the bans concerned the sale of foie gras.
Legislation reflects public opinion, at least in democratic countries; are you suggesting that California, Chicago, the 46 countries of the Council of Europe and Israel, for instance, are not run by democratic rule?
There are many more people living in countries where the production of the substance is banned than there are who eat the substance. The bans are based largely based on independent scientific expertise, such as the EU report, which clearly state that the production of foie gras inflicts suffering on the birds.
David Olivier 21:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
75-90% of foie gras production takes place in France, which is clearly not about to ban it anytime soon. I think this fact would be appropriate to mention in the second paragraph of the article, as knowing it leads me to the conclusion that production bans are substanceless political posturing to appease activists like yourself. By the way, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest states that "when editors write to promote their own interests, their contributions often show a characteristic lack of connection to anything the general reader might want to consult as a reference". Please consider if you are truly acting in the best interest of Wikipedia or acting to promote your own interests. — Trevyn 08:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: 1. Please specify what sourced edit I called unsourced. 2. This is not the place to discuss what I say on Talk:Ethics_of_eating_meat. In any case, your point is purely ad hominem. 3. Nothing I have written suggests that I confuse production bans with sales bans. All I did was delete an akwardly worded and artificially placed assertion as to the ban not being a sales ban, when nothing suggested it was. I actually think it would be interesting to expand the production vs. sales ban issue, and note that the current situation, where production is frequently banned but not the sale of the product, leads to paradoxical situations; and give explanations of why these situations arise (the difficulties sales bans have with WTO regulations, for instance). That is good matter for expanding the "controversy" section. 4. Democratically elected governments may not represent exactly the state of public opinion, but they are never very far off the mark; in any case, they are a strong prima facie indication of that opinion, and, in the absence of any contrary data, should be taken as such. That prima facie indication is that hundeds of millions of people are opposed to foie gras production. How many people exactly do eat foie gras?
Trevyn: The correct figure is over 90% (I will check that). I have no objections to mentioning that figure in the introduction or elsewhere. That France is not to ban foie gras soon is an unsourced assertion. At least the foie gras industry in France seems to be getting uneasy about the situation! In any case, I do not see that figure as leading to the conclusion that production bans are "substanceless political posturing to appease activists" as you say. Also: I wonder why those politicians care so much about the "activists" if there are so few of them, and if there is not a general sentiment among the population against foie gras production. As for the "Conflict of interest attribution": first of all, any interest I have in the matter is not "my own interests", but an interest I do have in saving sentient beings from suffering, coupled with the fact that I have strong and substantiated reasons (such as the EU report and so on) to believe that foie gras production makes ducks and geese suffer. What about the interests of the others who are active on this page? Do they not eat foie gras and like it? Or serve it in restaurants, or produce it? Does that not count as "promoting their own interests" - self-serving interests at that! If you want to ban from editing this page all those who have a personal interest in the foie gras controversy, let us start by banning all those who eat it, or perhaps even all those who eat animals generally. OK to that?
About this discussion: You look like you are discussing, but you are not. You are just leveling one ad hominem attribution after another. The few non-ad hominem points you make are extremely poorly supported. SchmuckyTheCat, who started the edit war, openly admits he will not answer my points, saying that "Judging by other talk pages you're not just an activist, you're an extremist." You are not trying to discuss the issues, just sitting on the current blocked state of the page, which is the version that satisfies you, and venting your anger against me.
If the situation gets no better, I will again request that the page be unblocked.
David Olivier 10:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The source you quote does not prove, or even purport to prove, that France is not banning foie gras anytime soon. The law (which was in effect passed) can also be interpreted as showing that the French foie gras industry is getting jittery about the issue.
Yes, I am planning a list of specific changes. I have already listed and argued the changes I had made, and that had been reverted by SchmuckyTheCat. Neither SchmuckyTheCat nor anyone else has taken the trouble to respond to them. I hope that attitude will change, and we will be able to move on.
David Olivier 11:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, so you found the list of changes I had proposed. It is not very promising to see that instead of discussing them "line-by-line", as you announced, you content yourself with a blanket and unargued assertion that they are not appropriate, and justify that instead of any line-by-line discussion, "a discussion of [my] clear bias is [not] inappropriate".
The bottom line seems that whenever you face arguments, you prefer to revert to ad hominem attacks. I am still waiting for arguments.
David Olivier 12:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, if you want to argue about that "Ethics of eating meat" page, go there and argue. This is not the place for that, and as I said you are only introducing it as an ad hominem (non-)argument.
Concerning the "hundreds of millions" figure: foie gras is banned in all but three or four of the 46 countries comprising the Council of Europe. That means hundreds of millions of people. When we get around to it, we will do our arithmetic if you wish.
The opinion of a handful of scientists is representative of the opinion of the people, when those people choose those scientists and choose to trust their opinion. If a handful of scientists determine that some chemical is toxic, and consequently a governing body bans its use as a food additive, then that ban is the expression of the will of the people, whether or not those people are individually informed about the chemical or would refuse to buy foodstuff with it on the label. The same goes for foie gras. People are opposed to the infliction of severe suffering on sentient beings for the sake of producing a luxury food, scientists that they choose to trust have determined that foie gras production implied such suffering, and a government body that they appointed has banned that production. It seems all very straitforward to me.
David Olivier 19:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, for the n2th time, that stuff about disconfirmation bias is irrelevant from the start, since it is an ad hominem pseudo-argument. Perhaps you and I could agree that from now on we will concentrate on arguments, and refrain from all personal attacks?
If you do not get my point about toxic additives, I won't elaborate further. I brought up the point about there being prima facie hundreds of millions of people who oppose foie gras in response to SchmuckyTheCat, who argued above that the controversy section should be reduced because "[t]he controversy is important to activists, not the general population". Instead, it actually prima facie appears that there are many more people opposed to foie gras than there are who eat it. However, I am not arguing that there should be more than 50% of the article devoted to the controversy. It's OK with me that there should be no specific size limit for either aspect. So if that is OK with you and the others too, we can stop going on about bans on KFC and toxic chemicals and so on.
What you say about there being "no bans on oil from countries with appalling human rights records" is very interesting. In this case too there is a ban on the production conditions, but not on the sale of the finished substance. That doesn't imply that people are not opposed to those production methods; just that trade bans are particularly difficult to implement.
The rest of what you say, about Anthony Bourdain's opinions and so on, is not very clearly articulated and doesn't appear to have much substance.
David Olivier 21:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, there can be many arguments about how many people care about foie gras one way or another, and why, and whether they are well informed or not, and so on. All I am saying is that on the face of it it appears that opposition to foie gras is not some kind of side-issue, and should be allowed to be a major component of the article. How large exactly remains to be seen, by how much good quality stuff we can put in it.
Now I am not the one who locked this article. I am not the one who tried to put the clearly false assertion that "[The EU report] also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." and reverted all deletions of it - that was SchmuckyTheCat, who later recognized that it was false. I am not the one who decided that sourced and relevant information about foie gras was not to be included when it was not favorable to the product.
I am not the one who, in lack of arguments, resorted to systematic ad hominem aspertions.
By the way, you have not answered to my proposal: Perhaps you and I could agree that from now on we will concentrate on arguments, and refrain from all personal attacks? Could you at least do that?
David Olivier 22:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I deleted the assertion that the EU report "also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." That statement is unsourced. SchmuckyTheCat has not attempted to source it. It is also in stark contradiction with the following statements made by the EU report:
- I completed a sentence stating "The timing of liver fattening is carefully controlled so the animal is slaughtered before mortality rates rise to uneconomical levels." I think that is plainly supported by the above EU Committee statements. I also supported it by a reference, taken from a practical book for force-feeders, that states that "No clear-cut sign indicates the moment the liver reaches its optimal quality. The tired aspect of the fattened birds, their enormous size, their gasping respiration, the increasing difficulty the animal displays in moving, are all indications. The fattened geese and ducks must be slaughtered on the site in order to avoid eventual deaths during transportation."
- I specified that while it is true that the force-feeding is reversible for most of the animals, if it is discontinued early enough, a significant number do not recover and die. I supported that by a reference.
- In specified that "It can also be noted that the fact that a condition can heal does not contradict its being pathological." That is plain common sense (and, if you really need to know, is supported by uncountable articles documenting non-lethal, reversible, pathological conditions in humans and other animals). It is also relevant, given that the argument is always quoted that the condition is not pathological since it is reversible.
- I noted that the dispute over whether the condition is or isn't pathological (independently from its being a source of suffering for the birds) is significant. I also noted why it is. I supported that by a quotation by a pro-foie gras journalist in a pro-foie gras newspaper.
- I deleted the qualification that the production of foie gras is "reportedly" illegal in Israel. There is no particular reason to doubt that. I can give you a reference to the Israel Supreme Court ruling if you really want to make me waste my time.
- I deleted the sentence "Several chefs have filed suit and the City Council is considering overturning the ban which generated outrage across the city." This is just POV hype. There are no mass demonstrations against the ban in Chicago. If you call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to the ban, you should also call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to foie gras. And mention both equally.
- I deleted a qualification saying that in the countries that are listed as prohibiting its production, its sale is not prohibited. That is true, but also badly worded as it was, and not necessary. Instead, I added a word about the sale itself being prohibited in Chicago; which makes clear that in the other places only the production is banned.
So since David disappeared, should we unlock the page and assume David will establish consensus here before making any edits? — Trevyn 21:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that any proposal can permanently resolve all future disputes on the subject of this page. All specific issues will have to be discussed one by one; the only permanent guidelines for those disputes can be the general Wikipedia guidelines, such as NPOV and relevance. As the WP specifications say, we do not have any "jurisdiction" over this page or any other.
However, I do think that all who are in good faith can come to a general agreement about some points, so as to be able to unblock the page without starting the edit war all over.
(Please do not intersperse comments between the following points. Add comments after my signature below.)
Now a couple of specific points. 1. The sentence about the EU report "recognizing" that foie gras is not pathological should obviously be deleted, and no one should try to sneak in such disinformation in another wording. 2. We can say thinks like the fact that the French Parliament has voted such and such a law, but word it in a neutral way; no, it didn't decree that foie gras is equivalent to the Great Pyramid of Egypt. Generally speaking, Wikipedia is not the place for such POV wording.
Apart from that, I perfectly agree that the production ban vs. sales ban should be mentioned (and expanded upon); that the French law should be mentioned (and expanded upon); that the opposition of some Chicago chefs may be mentioned (but WP is not to assert that those chefs were outraged; just that they said that they were); that in the context of the "pathological" debate, it may be mentioned that foie gras is not particularly unhealthy for the consumer (within limits) - but it may also be mentioned that certain independent scientific sources explicitly or implicitly qualify it as pathological. The issue of how independent certain scientific sources actually are should also be mentioned.
Ah yes, a last point worth mentioning: I repeatedly asked editors to refrain from personal, ad hominem, attacks. I asked that specifically from one editor, who has not yet responded to that request. Unfortunately, that may mean that such attacks will go on. If that is the case, I will continue pointing them out, and pointing out that such attacks do not do credit to those who resort to them, apparently for lack of better arguments.
David Olivier 16:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Now look, Trevyn, who "strongly" disagrees with my proposal! What precisely do you disagree with? What precise point of my proposal is not neutral, is "one-sided"?
I find your reaction quite incredible. You reject my proposal because "now and in the future, we need to discuss and achieve consensus on individual edit points that cause disagreement". That is precisely what I propose, and have been proposing for weeks. I have been attempting for weeks now to discuss and achieve consensus on individual edit points. What kind of answers have I got? What kind of serious, honest and sincere arguments, based on facts, have I got?
Is it that you want to put back in the lies about the EU report, just because the "general consensus" here is "I couldn't care less about truth, I just want to get rid of that damn AR stuff"? What precisely do you propose?
David Olivier 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: I qualify the attitudes I encounter in this discussion as hostile, incompetent and dishonest because I am asking you and my other peer Wikipedians to stop having such attitudes. Hostile: I have made a proposal that may not suit you, but it has been rejected outright, without any mention of the several points which should not be controversial at all (such as the references to quality of information, whether it makes foie gras look good or bad). Incompetent: when you answer me "Do you feel that there are too many pictures?", while I have nowhere said such a thing, it means you have not even taken the trouble to read what I have said. Dishonest because it is not honest to come here and rely on sheer numbers, without taking the trouble to present consistent arguments. That is plain POV behaviour. David Olivier 17:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Trevyn: "For neutrality and relevance, you must defer to the majority of Wikipedians' views" That is certainly not the case. "Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy": see Wikipedia:Consensus. Consensus is built upon competent and honest efforts from all parties. David Olivier 17:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Trevyn: "I propose you create a Foie gras controversy article, where you will get much more support with regards to neutrality and relevance." No, it is here, in this article, that I want to find regards for neutrality and relevance! Neutrality and relevance are not optional qualities that can shoved aside into a discreet "controversy" article. They are requisites for all articles. David Olivier 18:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Ramdrake 14:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC) Please note the contribution by Zantastik above (below my proposal; dated 19:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)). It has been recently added, but at an unconspicuous position. I feel it is generally better to add contributions at the end of the page, even when the points they answer are further up. David Olivier 12:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)c
I think that the system of foie's production (section), including a subsection on the controversies surrounding it should be in the article but surely not be the center of it. Maybe about 20-25% of the article at most. -- Sugaar 20:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The controversy is part and parcel of foie gras, but like with many substances whose consumption is controversial (absinthe, tobacco, etc.) it should not be the central point of the article. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.-- Ramdrake 20:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Sugaar and Ramdrake. -- Fl e x ( talk| contribs) 03:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
We've got about six people who've made discussion since the page was locked. Only one indicates they care to make edits without consensus. In that case the page should be unlocked and individual users who want to make trouble can be dealt with individually. SchmuckyTheCat 19:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The crux of the debate seems to be the prominence of the criticism of foie gras. I don't think we have addressed that issue yet in depth, so I think that a formal mediation is not yet necessary. David Olivier 12:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are we deadlocked on that issue? David Olivier 12:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It has been discussed among other things. We have not yet gone into the specific points. There is also the contribution by Zantastik above to consider. Some specific things have been said that I want to answer to. Now of course, if your position is that whatever evidence is brought to the contrary, you will not budge, then yes, we are deadlocked. I do, however, have the right to present my arguments. David Olivier 12:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It appears, looking at the above discussion that there are some editors who think that information critical of Foie Gras should either be minimal or not included within this article. This is patently POV. Please can I point you all to WP:NPOV, specifically the part about undue weight. Secondly can I point you to WP:POVFORK regarding doing a split off. The controversy section is not in any way too long. Please realise that this article is not just about 'foie gras as a food' - it is supposed to be an article covering all aspects of foie gras, and the controversy is one of the aspects of that. What are the specific problems that seem to be causing trouble? The above discussion seems to have gone off on wild tangents in some areas so is difficult to follow.- Localzuk (talk) 13:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Saying that there are to be no "territories" in the article does not necessarily mean that each paragraph should be a battleground for/against foie gras. There is a lot to do just to make the sentences NPOV according to the usual guidelines, and insuring that the information is verifiable and relevant.
The opening lines currently read:
Foie gras [fwɑ gʁɑ] (French for "fat liver") is the fattened liver of a duck or goose that has been overfed. Along with truffles, foie gras is one of the greatest delicacies in French cuisine—it is very rich and buttery, with a delicate flavour unlike that of a regular duck or goose liver.
It is not seen as NPOV to say "ice cream is delicious"; the correct formulation would be some thing like "many people like ice cream". The sentence about foie gras being one of the greatest delicacies should be reformulated; including the idea it is "rich and buttery", its flavour being delicate and so on.
As for the first sentence: "overfed" is an understatement. The official definition in France (by far the largest producer in the world) is that it must be produced by force-feeding; there is no such thing as foie gras without force-feeding. The word force-feeding should be in that statement, since it defines foie gras.
There are many other such points, such as how verifiable the contents of the current "history" section are. I believe that each such point should be debated (if seen as contentious) seperately, according to the usual guidelines.
This is one reason why it seems not very meaningful to want to decide how much of the article must be "pro" and how much must be "con". I think it should simply be recognized that the controversy is a major aspect of the topic, as are the culinary aspects, and that there is no need to edict specific proportions, no more than in any other particular article. If at a point in the future it does appear that the treatment of one aspect has grown out of proportion, then perhaps it will be justified to do something about it, but that is not now.
David Olivier 00:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reworded the part about foie gras "being" a delicacy, to say that it is seen as a delicacy. It has been reversed by Jooler, and I reversed it back. Someone might want to word that better, but it certainly should not be reversed. Please don't start another edit war on this, I think the issue is quite clear.
I have also deleted the part about foie gras's texture being rich and so on. That too is a subjective value judgment. If someone wants to word it in a NPOV fashion, that would be better. I personnaly feel it is not very relevant, and should be deleted.
David Olivier 00:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Please define "rich". Wikipedia is no place for advertisement. David Olivier 08:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the wine article. If "rich" means "heavy in cream, etc." (i.e. heavy in calories), that could be the right word to put there. More specifically, it could be said it has a high fat content. But actually, "rich" has a positive connotation. It is an advertisement word.
Also, please remain calm. Referring to the LAME page is not an argument. David Olivier 09:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
SchmuckyTheCat, you have reverted the main page, putting back the NPOV wording about being a delicacy, rich and so on. There happens to be an ongoing discussion here on the issue. You might consider in the future discussing edits in a civil manner.
As for your comment - "rv, the french parliament says it is one of the greatest, so it is not "considered"" - it is patently absurd to see the French Parliament, or any other body, as an authority over what is a delicacy or not. Apart from the fact that the French Parliament actually says nothing of the sort (but I am getting used to your citing lame sources). Ah yes, then you add a source for its being "rich": "Sunset magazine, December 2001 "Foie gras is so lavishly rich..."" Ah what a reliable source!
David Olivier 16:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The current intro defines foie gras as "is the fattened liver of a duck or goose that has been overfed". I changed that to "has been force-fed", and Jooler reverted it to "overfed", with the comment "not all foie gras production involves force feeding".
The recent French law (Code rural L654-27-1, see the official French legal site]) states: "On entend par foie gras, le foie d'un canard ou d'une oie spécialement engraissé par gavage." ("One is to understand by "foie gras" the liver of a duck or a goose that has been specially fattened by force-feeding"). There have been attempts to find alternative methods to force-feeding - see this French document, page 45 - but, as that document says, they got nowhere. As the French law makes clear, France oppose any use of the term for a substance produced without force-feeding. France is by far the largest producer and consumer of foie gras in the world. I am not aware of anyone elsewhere claiming to produce foie gras without force-feeding. The two US producers, for instance, use force-feeding ( Sonoma Foie Gras: "[The ducks] are tube fed twice per day"; see here about Hudson Valley Foie Gras, whose site prefers to speak only of a special feeding process (!)).
The French law may not have definitive authority about the use of that or any other word, and as for any word, you may always find someone who uses it with another definition. However, I think there is enough evidence to show that the universally recognized meaning of the term implies force-feeding. If Jooler believes otherwise, he or she must bring valid evidence to the contrary.
David Olivier 15:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I looked at this article for the first time today and it striked me as being overly chatty in Controversy section. Anti-gavage activity is clearly an important subject, but it does not really belong here. Foie gras is a food item, and I suspect that's what the bulk of readers expect the article to focus on. Discussion of how some people feel about force-feeding issues (either pro- or con-) is interesting and relevant, but it probably needs to go into WP article of its own and be cross-linked from this one. Alex Pankratov 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Vandalism:
Someone has gone through this article and reworked some of the areas. He is writing about some girl named Kate and renaming the cities after himself and friends (I assume). I'm going to try to remove as much as I can without destroying this article.
9 out of 144 birds is a lower mortality rate than US bred turkeys. Those levels seem to be entirely normal for the poultry industry. SchmuckyTheCat 17:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
SchmuckyTheCat, please stop your repeated reversions. If you have arguments, please discuss them. David Olivier 08:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"The EU report says the most significant damage to birds health begins to occur after 18 days" Where exactly does it say that? "It also states it would be uneconomical (poor quality product) if the birds were as unhealthy as critics charge." Where exactly does it say that?
I actually doubt very much that it says anything like that, except if in your mind ill health starts at being dead. In any case, your interpreting the EU report as saying that the animals are not in a pathological state is a wild interpretation to say the least. It is not supported by any citation, and is directly contradicted by at least one explicit citation ("For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological." p. 41) and by the numerous citations I quote below (in the "Clearly POV reverts" section).
David Olivier 17:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I put up the tag because this edit war that has been going on between 2 or 3 users means it's time to have more people discuss what should and shouldn't be in this article.-- Boffob 19:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not intersperse comments between my paragraphs. That makes the discussion unreadable. I have moved your comments above into a single block. David Olivier 10:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The article has been protected due to the ongoing edit war. The involved editors are requested to resolve the issue through discussion. Please note the protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. -- BorgQueen 20:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(Answer to Alex Pankratov et al.)
That my edits are "substantial" is not a defect. Neither is that they were not discussed beforehand; there is no rule saying that changes must be discussed beforehand.
You have not even started to show that my edits are POV. Neither has SmuckyTheCat.
Specifically, starting with my first Nov. 26 edit:
- I deleted the assertion that the EU report "also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." That statement is unsourced. SchmuckyTheCat has not attempted to source it. It is also in stark contradiction with the following statements made by the EU report:
- I completed a sentence stating "The timing of liver fattening is carefully controlled so the animal is slaughtered before mortality rates rise to uneconomical levels." I think that is plainly supported by the above EU Committee statements. I also supported it by a reference, taken from a practical book for force-feeders, that states that "No clear-cut sign indicates the moment the liver reaches its optimal quality. The tired aspect of the fattened birds, their enormous size, their gasping respiration, the increasing difficulty the animal displays in moving, are all indications. The fattened geese and ducks must be slaughtered on the site in order to avoid eventual deaths during transportation."
- I specified that while it is true that the force-feeding is reversible for most of the animals, if it is discontinued early enough, a significant number do not recover and die. I supported that by a reference.
- In specified that "It can also be noted that the fact that a condition can heal does not contradict its being pathological." That is plain common sense (and, if you really need to know, is supported by uncountable articles documenting non-lethal, reversible, pathological conditions in humans and other animals). It is also relevant, given that the argument is always quoted that the condition is not pathological since it is reversible.
- I noted that the dispute over whether the condition is or isn't pathological (independently from its being a source of suffering for the birds) is significant. I also noted why it is. I supported that by a quotation by a pro-foie gras journalist in a pro-foie gras newspaper.
- I deleted the qualification that the production of foie gras is "reportedly" illegal in Israel. There is no particular reason to doubt that. I can give you a reference to the Israel Supreme Court ruling if you really want to make me waste my time.
- I deleted the sentence "Several chefs have filed suit and the City Council is considering overturning the ban which generated outrage across the city." This is just POV hype. There are no mass demonstrations against the ban in Chicago. If you call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to the ban, you should also call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to foie gras. And mention both equally.
- I deleted a qualification saying that in the countries that are listed as prohibiting its production, its sale is not prohibited. That is true, but also badly worded as it was, and not necessary. Instead, I added a word about the sale itself being prohibited in Chicago; which makes clear that in the other places only the production is banned.
None of these points have been addressed by SchmuckyTheCat, or by anyone else. They have just been directly reverted, with no reason given, putting back among other things the dubious (to the least) statement about the EU Committee conclusions.
So please stop your senseless POV edit war. This is not the place for that.
David Olivier 21:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
You say: The EU report does not come to the conclusion that foie gras production puts the bird in a pathological state. The EU report states: For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological. (p.41). Who are we to believe: what you say it states, or what it actually does state? David Olivier 08:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, now please answer about your contention that "The EU report does not come to the conclusion that foie gras production puts the bird in a pathological state." How exactly do you make that compatible with what the report actually states: "For this reason, and because normal liver function is seriously impaired in birds with the hypertrophied liver which occurs at the end of force feeding this level of steatosis should be considered pathological." (p.41)? David Olivier 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
A Tokaji website ( [2]) lists foie gras as a "classic" food to pair with Tokaji wine. Perhaps this could be mentioned under "presentation" such as »It is often served with a dessert wine such as Sauternes or Tokaji Aszú« because I also remember someone mentioning it when I was in Hungary. - Ich ( talk) 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It would seem that the ardent defensers of duck and goose stuffing have suddenly fallen silent; it seems they don't care to bring arguments, as long as the current state of the page satisfies their POV.
So I repeat my above question:
David Olivier 08:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, no reason to repeat the quote frome the EU report that says the liver is pathological; its just that you repeatedly wanted to add an assertion of yours saying that the condition was not pathological, while attributing that position to the same EU report. I am happy that you now agree that that assertion should be removed.
The rest of what you say is pure interpretation; and it is a wild interpretation, as can be readily recongnized by anyone who takes the trouble of reading the report itself.
David Olivier 12:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The changes in hepatocytes and other cells in the liver of force fed ducks and geese are substantial. The most obvious change is the increase in the number of large fat globules visible in the cells. A limited increase in the presence of fat globules in liver can occur in normal liver in certain conditions but no normal animal has steatosis of the liver to the extent which occurs in all force fed birds. During the force feeding period, liver function is impaired. Some pathologists consider this level of steatosis to be pathological but others do not. The steatosis is reversible in many birds but reversibility exists for many pathological states.
it would be illegal to sell the organs of an animal that was recognized as sick; the foie gras industry thus depends on the condition being declared non pathological
I have requested unprotection for this page. No one has answered my arguments above, so I conclude that the debate is over, and that I may implement the changes that explicitly or implicitly have been accepted. David Olivier 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to SchmuckyTheCat: My above discussion is too long simply because it goes to the trouble of sourcing what it says. It is not correct behaviour to contradict someone, give false arguments to that effect, and then just shun the answer when it is given. Please respond to my arguments (citing your sources) or desist.
In response to Boffob: About 80% of the article is about "look how tasty and glamourous and natural and traditional foie gras is". You want that to stay, but any contradictory evidence you call POV. That is as POV as you can get.
Concerning Chicago: That a couple of chefs in Chicago (your source says "a handful") are defying the ban is a rather tiny piece of information hardly worth inclusion, as anyone can easily recognize. To qualify that as "outrage across the city", as the sentence I deleted said, is a gross exageration, aimed at giving the impression that there was some kind of revolution there. Also unsourced and extremely vague was the contention that the City Council was considering overturning the ban. Frankly, that too is about as POV as you can get.
I don't intend to make the Foie gras article say that foie gras is pathological. It just happens that a serious study exists - the EU report - and it is fair to state its conclusions on that matter. Since foie gras defenders constantly repeat that the fattened liver is not diseased, it is also relevant to explain why (in their own words) that issue is important. Yes, all that is negative information concerning foie gras. That doesn't make including it POV. To state otherwise is preposterous.
I developed a long argument above. If all you have to say in response is three lines labeling my position POV, it means that you have no substantive answer to my arguments. The page should thus be unblocked.
David Olivier 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: Please do not insert answers between two paragraphs of the person you are answering to. That just makes the discussion impossible to read. I have moved your answer to after mine. David Olivier 17:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Considering that foie gras has been banned in a substantial part of the world - for instance in all 46 states of the Council of Europe, for instance, except in those three countries where it is already "current practice" ( Recommendation Concerning Muscovy Ducks (...) (a binding text), Standing Committee of the European Convention for the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes, June 1999), in Israel (which was a substantial producer), in one of the two US states where it was produced, and so on, and eaten only by a tiny fraction of the world population, it is hardly giving undue weight to give at least as much weight to the controversy as to the various ways you can cook the stuff which are of interest only to those few.
Your explanation as to why you do not answer my arguments is purely ad hominem, and thus in no way counts as an argument. You have engaged in an edit war against my edits, the page has been blocked, I have defended my positions with arguments, and you are to do the same or desist.
David Olivier 19:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: Just pointing to some article is not an argument. If you are suggesting that I suffer disconfirmation bias, you have to argue that.
Trevyn: A ban on the production of foie gras is a clear statement against that production.
Just saying that I twist words doesn't in itself prove I do. If you can find specific word twisting in my edits, please say so. Specifically, nothing in my edits suggested that the bans concerned the sale of foie gras.
Legislation reflects public opinion, at least in democratic countries; are you suggesting that California, Chicago, the 46 countries of the Council of Europe and Israel, for instance, are not run by democratic rule?
There are many more people living in countries where the production of the substance is banned than there are who eat the substance. The bans are based largely based on independent scientific expertise, such as the EU report, which clearly state that the production of foie gras inflicts suffering on the birds.
David Olivier 21:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
75-90% of foie gras production takes place in France, which is clearly not about to ban it anytime soon. I think this fact would be appropriate to mention in the second paragraph of the article, as knowing it leads me to the conclusion that production bans are substanceless political posturing to appease activists like yourself. By the way, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest states that "when editors write to promote their own interests, their contributions often show a characteristic lack of connection to anything the general reader might want to consult as a reference". Please consider if you are truly acting in the best interest of Wikipedia or acting to promote your own interests. — Trevyn 08:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: 1. Please specify what sourced edit I called unsourced. 2. This is not the place to discuss what I say on Talk:Ethics_of_eating_meat. In any case, your point is purely ad hominem. 3. Nothing I have written suggests that I confuse production bans with sales bans. All I did was delete an akwardly worded and artificially placed assertion as to the ban not being a sales ban, when nothing suggested it was. I actually think it would be interesting to expand the production vs. sales ban issue, and note that the current situation, where production is frequently banned but not the sale of the product, leads to paradoxical situations; and give explanations of why these situations arise (the difficulties sales bans have with WTO regulations, for instance). That is good matter for expanding the "controversy" section. 4. Democratically elected governments may not represent exactly the state of public opinion, but they are never very far off the mark; in any case, they are a strong prima facie indication of that opinion, and, in the absence of any contrary data, should be taken as such. That prima facie indication is that hundeds of millions of people are opposed to foie gras production. How many people exactly do eat foie gras?
Trevyn: The correct figure is over 90% (I will check that). I have no objections to mentioning that figure in the introduction or elsewhere. That France is not to ban foie gras soon is an unsourced assertion. At least the foie gras industry in France seems to be getting uneasy about the situation! In any case, I do not see that figure as leading to the conclusion that production bans are "substanceless political posturing to appease activists" as you say. Also: I wonder why those politicians care so much about the "activists" if there are so few of them, and if there is not a general sentiment among the population against foie gras production. As for the "Conflict of interest attribution": first of all, any interest I have in the matter is not "my own interests", but an interest I do have in saving sentient beings from suffering, coupled with the fact that I have strong and substantiated reasons (such as the EU report and so on) to believe that foie gras production makes ducks and geese suffer. What about the interests of the others who are active on this page? Do they not eat foie gras and like it? Or serve it in restaurants, or produce it? Does that not count as "promoting their own interests" - self-serving interests at that! If you want to ban from editing this page all those who have a personal interest in the foie gras controversy, let us start by banning all those who eat it, or perhaps even all those who eat animals generally. OK to that?
About this discussion: You look like you are discussing, but you are not. You are just leveling one ad hominem attribution after another. The few non-ad hominem points you make are extremely poorly supported. SchmuckyTheCat, who started the edit war, openly admits he will not answer my points, saying that "Judging by other talk pages you're not just an activist, you're an extremist." You are not trying to discuss the issues, just sitting on the current blocked state of the page, which is the version that satisfies you, and venting your anger against me.
If the situation gets no better, I will again request that the page be unblocked.
David Olivier 10:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The source you quote does not prove, or even purport to prove, that France is not banning foie gras anytime soon. The law (which was in effect passed) can also be interpreted as showing that the French foie gras industry is getting jittery about the issue.
Yes, I am planning a list of specific changes. I have already listed and argued the changes I had made, and that had been reverted by SchmuckyTheCat. Neither SchmuckyTheCat nor anyone else has taken the trouble to respond to them. I hope that attitude will change, and we will be able to move on.
David Olivier 11:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, so you found the list of changes I had proposed. It is not very promising to see that instead of discussing them "line-by-line", as you announced, you content yourself with a blanket and unargued assertion that they are not appropriate, and justify that instead of any line-by-line discussion, "a discussion of [my] clear bias is [not] inappropriate".
The bottom line seems that whenever you face arguments, you prefer to revert to ad hominem attacks. I am still waiting for arguments.
David Olivier 12:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, if you want to argue about that "Ethics of eating meat" page, go there and argue. This is not the place for that, and as I said you are only introducing it as an ad hominem (non-)argument.
Concerning the "hundreds of millions" figure: foie gras is banned in all but three or four of the 46 countries comprising the Council of Europe. That means hundreds of millions of people. When we get around to it, we will do our arithmetic if you wish.
The opinion of a handful of scientists is representative of the opinion of the people, when those people choose those scientists and choose to trust their opinion. If a handful of scientists determine that some chemical is toxic, and consequently a governing body bans its use as a food additive, then that ban is the expression of the will of the people, whether or not those people are individually informed about the chemical or would refuse to buy foodstuff with it on the label. The same goes for foie gras. People are opposed to the infliction of severe suffering on sentient beings for the sake of producing a luxury food, scientists that they choose to trust have determined that foie gras production implied such suffering, and a government body that they appointed has banned that production. It seems all very straitforward to me.
David Olivier 19:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, for the n2th time, that stuff about disconfirmation bias is irrelevant from the start, since it is an ad hominem pseudo-argument. Perhaps you and I could agree that from now on we will concentrate on arguments, and refrain from all personal attacks?
If you do not get my point about toxic additives, I won't elaborate further. I brought up the point about there being prima facie hundreds of millions of people who oppose foie gras in response to SchmuckyTheCat, who argued above that the controversy section should be reduced because "[t]he controversy is important to activists, not the general population". Instead, it actually prima facie appears that there are many more people opposed to foie gras than there are who eat it. However, I am not arguing that there should be more than 50% of the article devoted to the controversy. It's OK with me that there should be no specific size limit for either aspect. So if that is OK with you and the others too, we can stop going on about bans on KFC and toxic chemicals and so on.
What you say about there being "no bans on oil from countries with appalling human rights records" is very interesting. In this case too there is a ban on the production conditions, but not on the sale of the finished substance. That doesn't imply that people are not opposed to those production methods; just that trade bans are particularly difficult to implement.
The rest of what you say, about Anthony Bourdain's opinions and so on, is not very clearly articulated and doesn't appear to have much substance.
David Olivier 21:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, there can be many arguments about how many people care about foie gras one way or another, and why, and whether they are well informed or not, and so on. All I am saying is that on the face of it it appears that opposition to foie gras is not some kind of side-issue, and should be allowed to be a major component of the article. How large exactly remains to be seen, by how much good quality stuff we can put in it.
Now I am not the one who locked this article. I am not the one who tried to put the clearly false assertion that "[The EU report] also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." and reverted all deletions of it - that was SchmuckyTheCat, who later recognized that it was false. I am not the one who decided that sourced and relevant information about foie gras was not to be included when it was not favorable to the product.
I am not the one who, in lack of arguments, resorted to systematic ad hominem aspertions.
By the way, you have not answered to my proposal: Perhaps you and I could agree that from now on we will concentrate on arguments, and refrain from all personal attacks? Could you at least do that?
David Olivier 22:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I deleted the assertion that the EU report "also recognizes that producers do not put their birds livers into a pathological state." That statement is unsourced. SchmuckyTheCat has not attempted to source it. It is also in stark contradiction with the following statements made by the EU report:
- I completed a sentence stating "The timing of liver fattening is carefully controlled so the animal is slaughtered before mortality rates rise to uneconomical levels." I think that is plainly supported by the above EU Committee statements. I also supported it by a reference, taken from a practical book for force-feeders, that states that "No clear-cut sign indicates the moment the liver reaches its optimal quality. The tired aspect of the fattened birds, their enormous size, their gasping respiration, the increasing difficulty the animal displays in moving, are all indications. The fattened geese and ducks must be slaughtered on the site in order to avoid eventual deaths during transportation."
- I specified that while it is true that the force-feeding is reversible for most of the animals, if it is discontinued early enough, a significant number do not recover and die. I supported that by a reference.
- In specified that "It can also be noted that the fact that a condition can heal does not contradict its being pathological." That is plain common sense (and, if you really need to know, is supported by uncountable articles documenting non-lethal, reversible, pathological conditions in humans and other animals). It is also relevant, given that the argument is always quoted that the condition is not pathological since it is reversible.
- I noted that the dispute over whether the condition is or isn't pathological (independently from its being a source of suffering for the birds) is significant. I also noted why it is. I supported that by a quotation by a pro-foie gras journalist in a pro-foie gras newspaper.
- I deleted the qualification that the production of foie gras is "reportedly" illegal in Israel. There is no particular reason to doubt that. I can give you a reference to the Israel Supreme Court ruling if you really want to make me waste my time.
- I deleted the sentence "Several chefs have filed suit and the City Council is considering overturning the ban which generated outrage across the city." This is just POV hype. There are no mass demonstrations against the ban in Chicago. If you call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to the ban, you should also call "outrage across the city" the opinion of those who are strongly opposed to foie gras. And mention both equally.
- I deleted a qualification saying that in the countries that are listed as prohibiting its production, its sale is not prohibited. That is true, but also badly worded as it was, and not necessary. Instead, I added a word about the sale itself being prohibited in Chicago; which makes clear that in the other places only the production is banned.
So since David disappeared, should we unlock the page and assume David will establish consensus here before making any edits? — Trevyn 21:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that any proposal can permanently resolve all future disputes on the subject of this page. All specific issues will have to be discussed one by one; the only permanent guidelines for those disputes can be the general Wikipedia guidelines, such as NPOV and relevance. As the WP specifications say, we do not have any "jurisdiction" over this page or any other.
However, I do think that all who are in good faith can come to a general agreement about some points, so as to be able to unblock the page without starting the edit war all over.
(Please do not intersperse comments between the following points. Add comments after my signature below.)
Now a couple of specific points. 1. The sentence about the EU report "recognizing" that foie gras is not pathological should obviously be deleted, and no one should try to sneak in such disinformation in another wording. 2. We can say thinks like the fact that the French Parliament has voted such and such a law, but word it in a neutral way; no, it didn't decree that foie gras is equivalent to the Great Pyramid of Egypt. Generally speaking, Wikipedia is not the place for such POV wording.
Apart from that, I perfectly agree that the production ban vs. sales ban should be mentioned (and expanded upon); that the French law should be mentioned (and expanded upon); that the opposition of some Chicago chefs may be mentioned (but WP is not to assert that those chefs were outraged; just that they said that they were); that in the context of the "pathological" debate, it may be mentioned that foie gras is not particularly unhealthy for the consumer (within limits) - but it may also be mentioned that certain independent scientific sources explicitly or implicitly qualify it as pathological. The issue of how independent certain scientific sources actually are should also be mentioned.
Ah yes, a last point worth mentioning: I repeatedly asked editors to refrain from personal, ad hominem, attacks. I asked that specifically from one editor, who has not yet responded to that request. Unfortunately, that may mean that such attacks will go on. If that is the case, I will continue pointing them out, and pointing out that such attacks do not do credit to those who resort to them, apparently for lack of better arguments.
David Olivier 16:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Now look, Trevyn, who "strongly" disagrees with my proposal! What precisely do you disagree with? What precise point of my proposal is not neutral, is "one-sided"?
I find your reaction quite incredible. You reject my proposal because "now and in the future, we need to discuss and achieve consensus on individual edit points that cause disagreement". That is precisely what I propose, and have been proposing for weeks. I have been attempting for weeks now to discuss and achieve consensus on individual edit points. What kind of answers have I got? What kind of serious, honest and sincere arguments, based on facts, have I got?
Is it that you want to put back in the lies about the EU report, just because the "general consensus" here is "I couldn't care less about truth, I just want to get rid of that damn AR stuff"? What precisely do you propose?
David Olivier 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Boffob: I qualify the attitudes I encounter in this discussion as hostile, incompetent and dishonest because I am asking you and my other peer Wikipedians to stop having such attitudes. Hostile: I have made a proposal that may not suit you, but it has been rejected outright, without any mention of the several points which should not be controversial at all (such as the references to quality of information, whether it makes foie gras look good or bad). Incompetent: when you answer me "Do you feel that there are too many pictures?", while I have nowhere said such a thing, it means you have not even taken the trouble to read what I have said. Dishonest because it is not honest to come here and rely on sheer numbers, without taking the trouble to present consistent arguments. That is plain POV behaviour. David Olivier 17:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Trevyn: "For neutrality and relevance, you must defer to the majority of Wikipedians' views" That is certainly not the case. "Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy": see Wikipedia:Consensus. Consensus is built upon competent and honest efforts from all parties. David Olivier 17:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Trevyn: "I propose you create a Foie gras controversy article, where you will get much more support with regards to neutrality and relevance." No, it is here, in this article, that I want to find regards for neutrality and relevance! Neutrality and relevance are not optional qualities that can shoved aside into a discreet "controversy" article. They are requisites for all articles. David Olivier 18:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Ramdrake 14:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC) Please note the contribution by Zantastik above (below my proposal; dated 19:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)). It has been recently added, but at an unconspicuous position. I feel it is generally better to add contributions at the end of the page, even when the points they answer are further up. David Olivier 12:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)c
I think that the system of foie's production (section), including a subsection on the controversies surrounding it should be in the article but surely not be the center of it. Maybe about 20-25% of the article at most. -- Sugaar 20:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The controversy is part and parcel of foie gras, but like with many substances whose consumption is controversial (absinthe, tobacco, etc.) it should not be the central point of the article. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.-- Ramdrake 20:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Sugaar and Ramdrake. -- Fl e x ( talk| contribs) 03:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
We've got about six people who've made discussion since the page was locked. Only one indicates they care to make edits without consensus. In that case the page should be unlocked and individual users who want to make trouble can be dealt with individually. SchmuckyTheCat 19:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The crux of the debate seems to be the prominence of the criticism of foie gras. I don't think we have addressed that issue yet in depth, so I think that a formal mediation is not yet necessary. David Olivier 12:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are we deadlocked on that issue? David Olivier 12:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It has been discussed among other things. We have not yet gone into the specific points. There is also the contribution by Zantastik above to consider. Some specific things have been said that I want to answer to. Now of course, if your position is that whatever evidence is brought to the contrary, you will not budge, then yes, we are deadlocked. I do, however, have the right to present my arguments. David Olivier 12:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It appears, looking at the above discussion that there are some editors who think that information critical of Foie Gras should either be minimal or not included within this article. This is patently POV. Please can I point you all to WP:NPOV, specifically the part about undue weight. Secondly can I point you to WP:POVFORK regarding doing a split off. The controversy section is not in any way too long. Please realise that this article is not just about 'foie gras as a food' - it is supposed to be an article covering all aspects of foie gras, and the controversy is one of the aspects of that. What are the specific problems that seem to be causing trouble? The above discussion seems to have gone off on wild tangents in some areas so is difficult to follow.- Localzuk (talk) 13:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Saying that there are to be no "territories" in the article does not necessarily mean that each paragraph should be a battleground for/against foie gras. There is a lot to do just to make the sentences NPOV according to the usual guidelines, and insuring that the information is verifiable and relevant.
The opening lines currently read:
Foie gras [fwɑ gʁɑ] (French for "fat liver") is the fattened liver of a duck or goose that has been overfed. Along with truffles, foie gras is one of the greatest delicacies in French cuisine—it is very rich and buttery, with a delicate flavour unlike that of a regular duck or goose liver.
It is not seen as NPOV to say "ice cream is delicious"; the correct formulation would be some thing like "many people like ice cream". The sentence about foie gras being one of the greatest delicacies should be reformulated; including the idea it is "rich and buttery", its flavour being delicate and so on.
As for the first sentence: "overfed" is an understatement. The official definition in France (by far the largest producer in the world) is that it must be produced by force-feeding; there is no such thing as foie gras without force-feeding. The word force-feeding should be in that statement, since it defines foie gras.
There are many other such points, such as how verifiable the contents of the current "history" section are. I believe that each such point should be debated (if seen as contentious) seperately, according to the usual guidelines.
This is one reason why it seems not very meaningful to want to decide how much of the article must be "pro" and how much must be "con". I think it should simply be recognized that the controversy is a major aspect of the topic, as are the culinary aspects, and that there is no need to edict specific proportions, no more than in any other particular article. If at a point in the future it does appear that the treatment of one aspect has grown out of proportion, then perhaps it will be justified to do something about it, but that is not now.
David Olivier 00:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reworded the part about foie gras "being" a delicacy, to say that it is seen as a delicacy. It has been reversed by Jooler, and I reversed it back. Someone might want to word that better, but it certainly should not be reversed. Please don't start another edit war on this, I think the issue is quite clear.
I have also deleted the part about foie gras's texture being rich and so on. That too is a subjective value judgment. If someone wants to word it in a NPOV fashion, that would be better. I personnaly feel it is not very relevant, and should be deleted.
David Olivier 00:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Please define "rich". Wikipedia is no place for advertisement. David Olivier 08:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the wine article. If "rich" means "heavy in cream, etc." (i.e. heavy in calories), that could be the right word to put there. More specifically, it could be said it has a high fat content. But actually, "rich" has a positive connotation. It is an advertisement word.
Also, please remain calm. Referring to the LAME page is not an argument. David Olivier 09:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
SchmuckyTheCat, you have reverted the main page, putting back the NPOV wording about being a delicacy, rich and so on. There happens to be an ongoing discussion here on the issue. You might consider in the future discussing edits in a civil manner.
As for your comment - "rv, the french parliament says it is one of the greatest, so it is not "considered"" - it is patently absurd to see the French Parliament, or any other body, as an authority over what is a delicacy or not. Apart from the fact that the French Parliament actually says nothing of the sort (but I am getting used to your citing lame sources). Ah yes, then you add a source for its being "rich": "Sunset magazine, December 2001 "Foie gras is so lavishly rich..."" Ah what a reliable source!
David Olivier 16:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The current intro defines foie gras as "is the fattened liver of a duck or goose that has been overfed". I changed that to "has been force-fed", and Jooler reverted it to "overfed", with the comment "not all foie gras production involves force feeding".
The recent French law (Code rural L654-27-1, see the official French legal site]) states: "On entend par foie gras, le foie d'un canard ou d'une oie spécialement engraissé par gavage." ("One is to understand by "foie gras" the liver of a duck or a goose that has been specially fattened by force-feeding"). There have been attempts to find alternative methods to force-feeding - see this French document, page 45 - but, as that document says, they got nowhere. As the French law makes clear, France oppose any use of the term for a substance produced without force-feeding. France is by far the largest producer and consumer of foie gras in the world. I am not aware of anyone elsewhere claiming to produce foie gras without force-feeding. The two US producers, for instance, use force-feeding ( Sonoma Foie Gras: "[The ducks] are tube fed twice per day"; see here about Hudson Valley Foie Gras, whose site prefers to speak only of a special feeding process (!)).
The French law may not have definitive authority about the use of that or any other word, and as for any word, you may always find someone who uses it with another definition. However, I think there is enough evidence to show that the universally recognized meaning of the term implies force-feeding. If Jooler believes otherwise, he or she must bring valid evidence to the contrary.
David Olivier 15:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)