This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Can anybody find a source for the practice of applying the ointment vaginally with a phallic stick? Seems awfully sensationalist to me.
Is there any record of anyone actually trying this recipe? It seems like it should be fairly toxic, though maybe the dose given is low enough for it to work... (No, I'm not volunteering.)
In "Drawing Down the Moon," there is an account of a young pagan woman making a flying paste of belladonna and nearly poisoning herself, having to be sent to the ER to be saved. (Yes, this *is* potentially poisonous even when applied transdermally, though the entry seems to imply that it isn't!) As of yet I have not seen any *medieval* source indicating that flying ointment was actually used, let alone vaginally with broomsticks. It may be true, but since I've never seen a medieval source describe it, I remain somewhat skeptical.
I know this discussion is old, but this page came up on a discussion list so I thought I'd check it out. For my sins, I *do* have some experience with salves of this type: two events to be precise, and the second one was such that I'd like to see the "threat level" on this page raised to 'severe'. Not any of the recipes on this page (I wouldn't in fact, trust the web at all, not even Wikipedia, for stuff like this) but one that was indeed allegedly intended for use on mucous membranes. I applied a small amount to the inside of each wrist, and in a much lower dosage than implied in the paper for mucous membranes, it induced vomiting within twenty minutes. My guess is that the recipes break down into two lots - those that don't work, and those that have effective dosages so close to the LD50 that they're positively dangerous outside the laboratory. That said, I recall a Channel4 (UK) documentary series that covered the subject - if I can track down the expert presenter for that episode there's probably some peer-reviewed medical literature. Ffetcher ( talk) 10:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Henry123ifa ( talk) 22:07, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
"Belladonna acts upon the cerebrospinal system, as showing such symptoms as dilatation of the pupils (mydriasis), presbyopia, obscurity of vision, blindness (amaurosis), visual illusions (phantasms), suffused eyes, occasionally disturbance of hearing (as ringing in the ears, etc.), numbness of the face, confusion of head, giddiness, and delirium. In very large doses it can cause extravagant delirium and a deep coma-like sleep.
Belladonna and opium exert the opposite effects, especially as regards their action on the brain, the spinal cord, and heart. They can be used as antidotes to each other in cases of overdose and poisoning."
Text taken from:
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/bell002.htm
So it would seem that belladona produces the dreamlike illusionary effects, while opium is involved to 'bring down' someone from the experience. --
74.179.99.253 (
talk) 21:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This ointment should be evaluated with the recognition that the combination of opium and tropane alkaloids was a routine anaesthetic from ancient Greece until the 19th century. [1] (please note that by "routine" I do not mean "safe" - but if you were having cataract surgery done in the first century B.C. what would you choose?) The irony here is that the description of this "flying ointment" dates from a two-century interval during which this treatment was taboo in Europe (see Opium). Mike Serfas 04:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Erwoid has at least one description where the subject experiences flying after ingestion of belladona. Many report lucid dreams and being places they were not (astral projection?). http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.cgi?A=Search&S1=9&S2=-1&S3=-1&C1=-1&S4=-1&GenderSelect=-1&Context=-1&DoseMethodID=-1&Title=&AuthorSearch=&A1=-1&Lang=&Group=-1&Str= Mike 01:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slxpluvs ( talk • contribs)
Please remember to sign your edits with four tildes, thus: ~~~~
That will show your signature.
Septegram 13:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Annoyingly the source give no indication who is is. Slatersteven ( talk) 07:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
But as Francis bacon writes about the Lancashire witches it seems to be him. Slatersteven ( talk) 07:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
This is the first time I've read an article that seems to be a joke yet gives no indication that it is in the text or talk page. Am I missing something here? TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 23:34, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
@ The Quixotic Potato: related to what was removed (I did not check the original to see if those were really among the fantastical claims, or if they are synthesis in later culture): Regino of Prüm, Canon Episcopi, Witch-cult hypothesis. If the first removal is to be restored, it should be verified and better sourced. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 23:42, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Flying ointment. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Flying ointment. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
MountainTraveler ( talk) 18:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm very new here so I apologize if this isn't the exact right place for this inquiry but it seems that the details surrounding the chemical constituents of the various herbs listed in the ointment isn't contingent with the citations listed let alone the real facts. At least that's what I assume about the "citations" listed because most don't appear publicly viewable and the one I did view I couldn't find the section where this supposed fact is even written. You'd be hard pressed to find any kind of source with that kind of incorrect information so even if the citation for some strange reason does say this I think it can easily be discarded without a second thought. It's very likely a Wiki editor just misinterpreted the literature's original words because it appears objectively so that clearly not "all" of the herbs listed in these ingredients contain Scopolamine, Atropine and Hyoscyamine. Wolfsbane and Hemlock for example, they don't contain any of these alkaloids so it really should just say "most" if not just "several" rather than "all".
Atropine absorbing through the skin to have psychoactive effects is also something else that no citation or reputable source has ever concluded from what I understand. In fact the exact opposite has been concluded through scientific research which maintains that of these 3 alkaloids; only Scopolamine is notably active transdermally (through the skin) and actually the whole point of transdermal administration is to avoid intake of Atropine and Hyoscyamine which are more dangerous and aren't the "desired" or preferred alkaloids in witchcraft; scopolamine is. And the other poisonous plants such as Wolfsbane (which contains Aconitine) are there to purportedly have antidote-like reactions to the Scopolamine. The purpose of adding other poisons to the already poisonous concoction was to reverse the effects of the "desired poison" which was Scopolamine. For instance using bradycardia to counter the tachycardia of scopolamine while still maintaining its psychoactive effects. Finding ways to make it less dangerous.
Edit Solution: I think the solution here would be to change back "all" to just "most" and Atropine having effects when absorbed through the skin to instead Scopolamine having effects when absorbed through the skin. Possibly getting rid of the citations or adding a "citation needed" marker but honestly these are such basic confirmable components that finding a reputable source shouldn't be hard anyways. It has been proven that Scopolamine is the only one of these alkaloids absorbed effectively through the skin and the information I said about the chemical components of these herbs is easily confirmable from any basic or general source pertaining to the descriptions of these specific plants.
I have started a project trying to grow the main ingredients of "flying ointment". I have documented some successes and failures, together with photographs of some of the plants, here: https://postpeakmedicine.wordpress.com/2020/09/22/the-care-and-use-of-toxic-plants/
-- Petergray4045 ( talk) 08:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
...and I've added said photographs to the Wikipedia page under "Gallery". It would help if you were more specific - it took me a while to work out what you were (probably) talking about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petergray4045 ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Can anybody find a source for the practice of applying the ointment vaginally with a phallic stick? Seems awfully sensationalist to me.
Is there any record of anyone actually trying this recipe? It seems like it should be fairly toxic, though maybe the dose given is low enough for it to work... (No, I'm not volunteering.)
In "Drawing Down the Moon," there is an account of a young pagan woman making a flying paste of belladonna and nearly poisoning herself, having to be sent to the ER to be saved. (Yes, this *is* potentially poisonous even when applied transdermally, though the entry seems to imply that it isn't!) As of yet I have not seen any *medieval* source indicating that flying ointment was actually used, let alone vaginally with broomsticks. It may be true, but since I've never seen a medieval source describe it, I remain somewhat skeptical.
I know this discussion is old, but this page came up on a discussion list so I thought I'd check it out. For my sins, I *do* have some experience with salves of this type: two events to be precise, and the second one was such that I'd like to see the "threat level" on this page raised to 'severe'. Not any of the recipes on this page (I wouldn't in fact, trust the web at all, not even Wikipedia, for stuff like this) but one that was indeed allegedly intended for use on mucous membranes. I applied a small amount to the inside of each wrist, and in a much lower dosage than implied in the paper for mucous membranes, it induced vomiting within twenty minutes. My guess is that the recipes break down into two lots - those that don't work, and those that have effective dosages so close to the LD50 that they're positively dangerous outside the laboratory. That said, I recall a Channel4 (UK) documentary series that covered the subject - if I can track down the expert presenter for that episode there's probably some peer-reviewed medical literature. Ffetcher ( talk) 10:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Henry123ifa ( talk) 22:07, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
"Belladonna acts upon the cerebrospinal system, as showing such symptoms as dilatation of the pupils (mydriasis), presbyopia, obscurity of vision, blindness (amaurosis), visual illusions (phantasms), suffused eyes, occasionally disturbance of hearing (as ringing in the ears, etc.), numbness of the face, confusion of head, giddiness, and delirium. In very large doses it can cause extravagant delirium and a deep coma-like sleep.
Belladonna and opium exert the opposite effects, especially as regards their action on the brain, the spinal cord, and heart. They can be used as antidotes to each other in cases of overdose and poisoning."
Text taken from:
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/bell002.htm
So it would seem that belladona produces the dreamlike illusionary effects, while opium is involved to 'bring down' someone from the experience. --
74.179.99.253 (
talk) 21:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This ointment should be evaluated with the recognition that the combination of opium and tropane alkaloids was a routine anaesthetic from ancient Greece until the 19th century. [1] (please note that by "routine" I do not mean "safe" - but if you were having cataract surgery done in the first century B.C. what would you choose?) The irony here is that the description of this "flying ointment" dates from a two-century interval during which this treatment was taboo in Europe (see Opium). Mike Serfas 04:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Erwoid has at least one description where the subject experiences flying after ingestion of belladona. Many report lucid dreams and being places they were not (astral projection?). http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.cgi?A=Search&S1=9&S2=-1&S3=-1&C1=-1&S4=-1&GenderSelect=-1&Context=-1&DoseMethodID=-1&Title=&AuthorSearch=&A1=-1&Lang=&Group=-1&Str= Mike 01:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slxpluvs ( talk • contribs)
Please remember to sign your edits with four tildes, thus: ~~~~
That will show your signature.
Septegram 13:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Annoyingly the source give no indication who is is. Slatersteven ( talk) 07:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
But as Francis bacon writes about the Lancashire witches it seems to be him. Slatersteven ( talk) 07:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
This is the first time I've read an article that seems to be a joke yet gives no indication that it is in the text or talk page. Am I missing something here? TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 23:34, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
@ The Quixotic Potato: related to what was removed (I did not check the original to see if those were really among the fantastical claims, or if they are synthesis in later culture): Regino of Prüm, Canon Episcopi, Witch-cult hypothesis. If the first removal is to be restored, it should be verified and better sourced. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 23:42, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Flying ointment. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Flying ointment. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
MountainTraveler ( talk) 18:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm very new here so I apologize if this isn't the exact right place for this inquiry but it seems that the details surrounding the chemical constituents of the various herbs listed in the ointment isn't contingent with the citations listed let alone the real facts. At least that's what I assume about the "citations" listed because most don't appear publicly viewable and the one I did view I couldn't find the section where this supposed fact is even written. You'd be hard pressed to find any kind of source with that kind of incorrect information so even if the citation for some strange reason does say this I think it can easily be discarded without a second thought. It's very likely a Wiki editor just misinterpreted the literature's original words because it appears objectively so that clearly not "all" of the herbs listed in these ingredients contain Scopolamine, Atropine and Hyoscyamine. Wolfsbane and Hemlock for example, they don't contain any of these alkaloids so it really should just say "most" if not just "several" rather than "all".
Atropine absorbing through the skin to have psychoactive effects is also something else that no citation or reputable source has ever concluded from what I understand. In fact the exact opposite has been concluded through scientific research which maintains that of these 3 alkaloids; only Scopolamine is notably active transdermally (through the skin) and actually the whole point of transdermal administration is to avoid intake of Atropine and Hyoscyamine which are more dangerous and aren't the "desired" or preferred alkaloids in witchcraft; scopolamine is. And the other poisonous plants such as Wolfsbane (which contains Aconitine) are there to purportedly have antidote-like reactions to the Scopolamine. The purpose of adding other poisons to the already poisonous concoction was to reverse the effects of the "desired poison" which was Scopolamine. For instance using bradycardia to counter the tachycardia of scopolamine while still maintaining its psychoactive effects. Finding ways to make it less dangerous.
Edit Solution: I think the solution here would be to change back "all" to just "most" and Atropine having effects when absorbed through the skin to instead Scopolamine having effects when absorbed through the skin. Possibly getting rid of the citations or adding a "citation needed" marker but honestly these are such basic confirmable components that finding a reputable source shouldn't be hard anyways. It has been proven that Scopolamine is the only one of these alkaloids absorbed effectively through the skin and the information I said about the chemical components of these herbs is easily confirmable from any basic or general source pertaining to the descriptions of these specific plants.
I have started a project trying to grow the main ingredients of "flying ointment". I have documented some successes and failures, together with photographs of some of the plants, here: https://postpeakmedicine.wordpress.com/2020/09/22/the-care-and-use-of-toxic-plants/
-- Petergray4045 ( talk) 08:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
...and I've added said photographs to the Wikipedia page under "Gallery". It would help if you were more specific - it took me a while to work out what you were (probably) talking about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petergray4045 ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)