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This section is certainly relevant (I think the discussion of Augustine's views is especially interesting). However, it is mostly a general discussion of Biblical accuracy and does not focus on the Flood. I'd like to prune it (maybe moving part of it to another article... Young Earth creationism or Biblical inerrancy). Any thoughts? -- Jpacold 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
O.K. Schroeder, since you have reverted the edit on Age of the Earth, PLEASE supply a REFERENCE for the unneeded initial concentrations and non-closed-system hypotheses. I.e., SHOW haw isochron analyses sidestep these issues. Dan Watts 00:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
From the perspective of the creation/evolution debate, this website is informative, though very basic in how it illustrates this. It would be better if you looked at one of the textbooks they reference. However, the paragraph in the above work is quite illuminating:
To really "SHOW" how the isochrons "sidestep" the issues, we'd have to go into detail about each condition in which you were interested: all the energy regimes, and the particular parameter analysis that is done. Joshuaschroeder 00:52, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way the "initial amount" argument doesn't really make any sense since the dating is done by means of parameter fitting where the initial amount itself is a parameter that is fit -- not assumed. As explained in the above article:
What the article doesn't do is say exactly how the "comparisons" get done which is by means of normal parameter fitting. It is fully rigorous from a physical standpoint and the errors are characterized well by the central limit theorem since there are enough systems to give a decent gaussian model. Joshuaschroeder 00:56, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is there an incorrect characterization of the T. Rex bone in this article? The investigator in the linked article was reprted as saying "This is fossilised bone in the sense that it's from an extinct animal but it doesn't have a lot of the characteristics of what people would call a fossil.... It still has places where there are no secondary minerals, and it's not any more dense than modern bone; it's bone more than anything." Why (other than dislike of the article subject) is there a rejection of the bone not being completely fossilized (mineral replacement)? In an online Washington Post article [1] it gives more detail concerning the demineralization: '[They] remove[d] the mineralized calcium', i.e. the solid matrix of the bone. If there is no explanation forthcoming within a few days, I propose that the (not supported by evidence) sentence ("But the tissue is fossilized, and appears to be flexible and contain cells and vessels only after demineralization."), which is at LEAST misleading, be removed. Dan Watts 15:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If the global flood actually occured, then it would have had a radical effect on geology, and evidence of that flood would be observable today, making the idea falsifiable. Conclusive evidence exists that such a flood did not occur, making a global flood in historic times a myth according to science. Belief in the supernatural allows for belief in such a flood, but because it relies on the supernatural to explain away evidence, it is not a valid scientific theory. 4.250.177.59 4 July 2005 23:31 (UTC)
One thing I've noticed is that this (on the page) seems to be a battle between "creationists" and "mainstream scientists", but in reality it is against a very small group (we could call them "creationists" or "flood geologists" or whatever) versus pretty much the entire population of the planet in the developed world, and most of it which isn't in the developed world to boot. This seems to be a common problem; evolution also essentially has the same problem in the creation v evolution articles, that far more people support it than is presented. And as for their obviously being conclusive evidence that there was no flood - yes, there is, but we aren't allowed to say so much. We are supposed to show reality, though - a mistake many make is that NPOV = give everyone equal time or equal credence to all opinions. That is not the case; we are supposed to present all opinions and not draw conclusions for the reader, but we are supposed to present evidence as well which (in this case at the very least) should show the reader that flood geology is in fact incorrect. If you feel that this is not presented strongly enough at the criticisms section at the end of the article, please add or reword it. 69.59.212.172 18:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Surely, the attempt of all scientific research and analysis is to find the true science which runs throughout the world. Sadly, as the majority of scientists presume that evolution is the ultimate truth to our origins without questioning it's validity in many cases, Creationism is disregarded as a valid theory. How you can automatically assume that flood geology is incorrect I do not know. There are so many situations which fit perfectly with the flood which do not fit with that of the mainstream scientists' view. For instance, could you please explain to me the prescence of feldspar on the Atlantic Ocean sea bed? Surely this could only have been sedimented if the bed had been formed in a short amount of time. There are several other facts which do not fit with mainstrea geology but do with the Young Earth Creationists' theories. In light of this, I would ask that you present the scientific VIEWS of the Creationist on flood geology at least, and not simply disclaim it in one swift blow. Presumptions are applied to the flood geologists' view which apply to mainstream science, which may not be true if the flood geologists' stance is correct.
"On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis: an unfinished book", Chapter 19:39
Augustine was NOT taking to task the 'reliability of Genesis', as the misquoted text is headed; rather, he was speaking about talking nonsense--perhaps, for example, being dogmatic about Arguments creationists should not use--and failing to maintain Christian integrity ("...maintaining his [the Christian's] foolish opinions about our books [the Bible] ..."). Furthermore, this passage is taken out of context of the whole (a/k/a quote mining), as Augustine goes on in Chapter 20 to condemn those that would take the word of men over the Word of God (which definitely shows he was not against the reliability of Scripture):
Therefore, I think that the quote from Augustine should be corrected, or stricken entirely. -- 138.130.203.177 16:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Is there a single quote anywhere that shows a notable proponent of flood geology dismissing "uniformitarianism"? This word is peppered throughout this article, and several statements are made regarding what flood-geologists think of it and what mainstream-geologists think of it. However, there isn't a single quote anywhere to support any of these claims. can anyone find some URL's that show what flood-geologists say in response to "uniformitarianism"? Otherwise, I think some of the article will need rewriting to avoid the term. FuelWagon 17:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
fuelwagon, i added a bit from a cited, sourced paper by grimel on the ideological origins of uniformitarians, per your request. Ungtss 19:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
My browser edit window kills the page after about 30K, which means, when I edited the intro, it cut the page off in the middle of section 6. If somebody could please revert past my edits, I'd me much obliged. My apologies! Neocapitalist 15:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Umm -- proposed incorporation of ' pseudoscience' in the ntro:
Thoughts? Neocapitalist 15:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Try two:
Neocapitalist 18:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Calling creationism "pseudoscience," and giving the philosophical objections of mainstream science the last word, shows a strong post-Christian bias in the article. Alfarero 00:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
why, duncharris and ian pitchford, do you insist on removing this cited academic material precisely on topic? is it because you think it's wrong? is your opinion the slighest bit relevent? -- ungtss
I'm wondering if your still unsure how gender evolved. - Roy Boy 800 20:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This article [4] mayhave some bearing on the 'swimming grass' phenomenon. An associated AP report gives a (uniformitarian) date for grass to have appeared of at least 80 Myrs ago. Dan Watts 03:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused by this section:
"If fossilization took place extremely quickly during the Flood, then — paleontologists claim — fossilized remains should be far more numerous and widespread than is actually seen." "Additionally, paleontologists claim that if all the fossilized animals were killed in the flood, and the flood is responsible for fossilization, then the average density of vertebrates was an abnormally high number."
The first paragraph seems to say that fossilized remains are too few. The second paragraph seems to say that fossilized remains are too many. I'm not sure what was intended, but it should be fixed.
I'm sure this will have been discussed before, but is it really necessary to describe science as "mainstream science" (or geology as "mainstream geology")? It gives the impression that flood geology is also science, albeit a minority viewpoint, despite the point at the head of the article that specifically relegates flood "geology" to pseudoscience. Furthermore, in a media-savvy world, "mainstream" has connotations that don't flatter science. -- Plumbago 09:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I worked as a Geologist with the
British Geological Survey, and was interested to see that there are none of
Velikovsky's books in the library there. In fact, Velikovsky drew together a large amount of geological evidence for catastrophic events - which are now the basis for mainstream geology. In the 1950's we liked to think of nature as being stable and predictable rather than producing catastrophic events of civilisation-shattering proportions in short timeframes. But he did it in such a controversial manner, too many years before his time, that he's been expunged to the dungeons of pseudoscience. Since rapid gelogical events have become acceptable, even some large quartzitic metal deposits are thought to be capable of being created in a matter of hours or days. I'm not sure about the biblical flood covering the whole world, but there is now some pretty good evidence for something along that scale when the
Black Sea
flooded about 5600BC.
The thing about the bible is that if you don't believe every word is true, there is a lot of historical basis. And I guess some of it must be allegory. However, given the discovery of mercury under the Chinese emperor's tomb, it makes you wonder how much old "mythology" is really based on fact. Dictostelium 16:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
<undent> It is very hard to argue that creation scientists are scientists, at least in the areas concerned with evolution, flood geology and similar fields. That is why creation scientist is more synomous with religious apologist-- Filll 01:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>You are free to believe whatever you like personally. However, it does not necessarily belong in the public square, including venues like public schools or secular encyclopedias like Wikipedia. If you call anyone with a science degree a scientist, you are engaging in obscene qualification inflation which I do not believe we should permit. For example,
There is no assumption made about loss or retention of either parent or daughter nuclei when one makes a determination of an age based on radiometric dating. All that is assumed is that the rates are known and then the parameters are fit. If one of the nuclei is out of equilibrium with other radionuclides, then the composition problems can be parametrized. However, no assumption is made as to the retention of components since the parameter fitting analysis allows for this to be fitted along with the age. -- Joshuaschroeder 20:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
This passage does not show a "priori" when examining data. It merely shows a SCIENTIFIC approach and thus i resolve it should be deleted. I haven't done it yet, to allow for commentary and so a consensus can be formed. The offending passage is
"It is worth noting that the founders of uniformitarianism likewise had an a priori commitment before examining the evidence. For example, James Hutton, the "Founder of Modern Geology", suggested :
"the past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now … No powers are to be employed that are not natural to the globe, no action to be admitted except those of which we know the principle" (emphasis added)
(from ‘Theory of the Earth’, a paper (with the same title of his 1795 book) communicated to the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and published in Transactions of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, 1785)"
Is there support for the statement below which appears in the Vapor Canopy section? If not, this should be removed as it would show a biased point of view.
. The vapor canopy model has lost favour and is no longer accepted by most creationist scientists.
65.165.142.98 21:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Pat
mammoths with grass in their mouths is proof of rapid freezing? er........ how?
the flood does not explain any sedimentary phenomena whatsoever.
this page gives this farce of a science way too much attention. someone shorten it.
it isn't a "hypothesis" unless it is going to be tested with observations. Since the explanation for the single fossil found is not going to be tested, the explanation is not a hypothesis. However, neither is it a guess because it is based on the understanding provided by context and other observations as well as knowledge of physical processes. -- ScienceApologist 05:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to me not to be neutral. I for one do not believe in a young earth, but the article as a whole seems bent towards an old-earth, evolutionist standpoint, and does not appear objective. Maybe a disputed neutrality tag should be added? -- scienceman 01:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Since this article is already longer than the recommended Wikpedia article length, I want to suggest some changes to move less relevant information to more relevant pages. In particular "Reliability of Genesis" has nothing to do with Geology, and shouldn't be on this page. "Philosophical Objections" doesn't really belong here either - perhaps a one-sentence comment would be merited, but not a whole section. [edit: I have subsequently extended this section to make it more balanced, but maintain it would be better for the whole section to be moved elsewhere.] Similarly "Age of the Earth" is not directly relevant to Flood Geology, so merits a single sentence in the introduction, and then should be dealt with more fully under other creationist topics.
In addition to this, much of the information presented as being what Flood Geologists believe is actually not correct because, as my inclusion of the section "How creationists interpret the GC" was intended to show, there is no single "Flood Geology" paradigm. This page would be better off giving a general overview of things that are broadly agreed today (rather than 30 years ago) in the creationist community, particularly discussing the problems with conventional geology that a new (catastrophist) geological paradigm has the potential to solve. Information specific to particular Flood models should then be discussed in separate articles, rather than giving the impression that Flood Geology is a monolithic entity. This would improve both the accuracy and the clarity of this article.
As an an example of how this page ought to look, I just looked up "Physics", "Chemistry" and "Geology" - each of which contains a brief overview of the history and main ideas of the discipline, and links to other pages that explore the detail, rather than trying to prove or disprove everything on one page. Any comments? -- Ephrathah 15:39 (UTC) 12 September 2006
If you're going to include philosophical points from one side you must allow a response or the article is strongly POV. What was wrong with my additions? Please put them back (edited if you must). I request a disputed neutrality flag be added to this page. -- Ephrathah 11:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
This puts "mainstream science" (geologic age of the theory: blink of an eye) in the place of both co-defendant and judge. Criticisms of the theory, as you mentioned, belong on the respective pages of their theories' proponents rather than on this page. It's time for an explanation, not an evaluation.
The philosophical objections are just sophistical fallacies. Perhaps a joke will explain:
Greene and Hawking decided to have a contest with God. "People don't need you anymore," Hawking said. "We can make life in a test tube from dirt."
"You're on!" said God. "You go first."
Greene stooped down to grab a handful of dirt.
"'Scuse me?" God interrupted. "Go get your own dirt!" Alfarero 01:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't think this is about epistemology or logical consistency. Instead, I believe it's like Jesus said: "Whoever will not accept the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." God is not someone we impress with logic. Sorry about that. Alfarero 03:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Where do flood geologists believe the flood waters went to? How can thousands of feet of water just disappear after a flood? I think there should be some discussion, at least, on this topic. Brokenskittles 02:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Have removed link to 'recolonisation' – no article under this head and any such article would transgress the Wikipedia prohibition of original research. ‘Recolonisation’ amended to ‘recolonisation theory’ to limit the term.
Have added some detail to say what recolonisation theory is.
Have deleted:
The main reasons put forward to support this hypothesis are (1) that it offers an explanation for why the fossils (particularly vertebrate trackways) are concentrated towards the end of the fossil record, not the beginning as would be expected if the Flood laid down the rocks, and (2) that it offers an explanation for rocks that don't appear to have been laid down underwater or that appear to have taken years or decades to form. The main arguments against recolonisation are (1) that it appears to require a far longer timescale than a straightforward reading of Genesis would allow, and (2) that it requires a lot of post-Flood destruction in a relatively short time, which humans, animals and plants may not have been able to survive outside the Ark.
This is on the grounds of space, which is perhaps more usefully devoted to explaining what the theory consists of. The 'main arguments against recolonisation' are main arguments only from the point of view of YECs. Proponents of recolonisation have gone to some length to explain why the YEC interpretation of the genealogies as if they gave a chronology is not a straightforward exercise. When making the second criticism YECs understand 'a relatively short time' to mean a few hundred years, not the possibly tens of thousands that the main proponent of recolonisation (Steven Robinson) has been suggesting for post-Flood time. Fastnet 10:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there no research going on into Flood Geology? I mean, I know everyone likes to say that it's not really science, but if you look at it, there's no reason why it has to be, say, unfalsifiable. Mainstream geology can't be reproduced because of the crazy timescales involved, sure, but a laboratory-based recreation of the flood, sedimentation of different animal carcasses etc. should be complete in only forty days or so.
So where's the research? It must be out there somewhere... and I think this article is exactly the place where it should be documented. SheffieldSteel 21:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
(undent) No sir, I am far from bored by this debate. I'm still surprised, not to say a little disappointed, that all these flood geologists, creation scientists, and institutes of discovery have not managed between them to publish the results of any experiments featuring mammals / saurians / amphibians / birds being differentially buried in sediment after forty days and forty nights of suitable drenching, pummelling, and so on. But hey, since that isn't happening, I think I will go and poke about at the article and see if I can't improve it ;-) SheffieldSteel 19:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Australia has been populated for at least 51,000 years. But there was no civilisation on the continent until it was colonised by Europeans. Australia has no indigenous plants suitable for agriculture. The Aborigines never got the chance to learn it from others ether. Consequently, the very basis for civilisation was lacking! Aboriginal culture was no civilisation any more then the Aurignacian culture.
2007-03-20 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
Is this someone's idea of a encyclopedia article? Where are all the necessary citations as per Wikipedia rules? 128.205.191.52 22:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
So, an off-the cuff response to a perceived threat to long ages is O.K.? Dan Watts 03:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
<reducing indent> In life sciences? Probably 10,000, maybe more. In Paleontology, geology and the earth sciences? Probably 2-3 thousand. In Radiometric dating? Maybe a hundred. But once again, please list out a referece anywhere that is peer-reviewed and support your POV. Orangemarlin 01:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I just randomly chose one of your references. RADIOCARBON, VOL 28, No. 2A, 1986, P 215-222. Did you read it? I guess you missed the discussion and conclusions that stated how much they helped archeologists determine the age of wood samples. Anyways, this isn't getting anywhere. T. Rex died out 70 or so million years ago. There was no flood (maybe some local ones, such as the Minoan eruption that helped create the Exodus myth). Etc. etc. Orangemarlin 01:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is done. You are too uncivil to continue, and this is a repeat of a prior one, in which you provided no new or verifiable information. Orangemarlin 01:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>Once again Dan, your lack of civility makes it difficult to want to engage in this conversation. I randomly took one of your references, and it proved nothing. Why should I waste my time doing anything further? It only shows me that you failed to do your research, because if you had, you would not have put in those references. There is no C14 with T. Rex, because, per above, the C14 has gone through so many half-lives, that it's impossible even with the most sensitive of equipment. Lastly, Coelecanth?? Give me a break. First of all, today's species have evolved over the past 65 million years, although not in any remarkable way. There are enough species that have not that it is not unique. Second, the lack of fossils is a result of where it lives, deep water, where the sedimentary rocks are rarely uplifted to a place on land where the rocks would erode to find the fossils. I don't mind engaging in these type of discussions, but I prefer the other party to have facts in hand. You do not. Orangemarlin 19:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to assume that an isotope with a relatively short half-life is not suitable for dating older materials - as has been explained above - and since competent people tend to use the best tool for the job, 14C dating will tend not to be used for older specimens, hence most of the results you'll see for that technique will be younger ages. SheffieldSteel 22:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
<Reducing indent once again> So? What is your point? The article wasn't speaking about 10's of millions of years but just a few. You pick out a singular quote and try to prove everything about Creationism with it? Huh? Orangemarlin 19:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed the Pseudoscience category tag from the page, because it already includes Category:Creation Science which is a subcategory. I'm trying to clean up the pseudoscience category, which contains huge amounts of redundancy due to the multiple vertical categories on many of its member pages.
Personally, I think creation science is nuts and is quite obviously pseudoscience. However, that's not the point of the pseudoscience category. We're not allowed to label things as pseudoscience, but only to point out what other verifiable sources say. The point of the category is to declare that there is an association between the topic of the article and the topic of pseudoscience, which is why skeptics like Michael Shermer are included in the category, as well as general concepts like False precision that show up in pseudoscientific theories with some frequency. As such, we only need to show that there is a notable association between Flood geology and pseudoscience, which there undoubtedly is (even the supporters would have to admit this).
So, I didn't remove the category because I don't think Flood geology is pseudoscience (quite the contrary) but rather because it's already included under a sub-category of pseudoscience, and I'm trying to reduce clutter in that category.
Unless there are further objections (I'll wait a while) I'd like to remove the redundant category. -- Sapphic 20:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'm opposed to using the category system as a means of "tagging" articles. The article clealy states that flood geology is pseudoscience, and that's where those labels should be applied (and referenced, which they are). The category system is meant as an aid to navigation, and as such it actually makes the pseudoscience category less useful to overload it with redundant listings in both the parent category and one or more sub-categories. If you want to make the fact that flood geology is pseudoscience more prominent, I would suggest doing so in the article itself, rather than cluttering the category. A "see also" section that includes pseudoscience is a good option, and one that many other similar articles have taken. -- Sapphic 22:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed that you removed the pseudoscience category from the article. You said it was already within a subcategory. Well, first, I couldn't find a subcategory, so I assumed (I know, my bad) that it was some underhanded attempt to hide the category, because, zout alors, you were trying to do something sneaky. Then I looked at your contributions, and you did it to dozens of articles (well, i gave up counting). Can you please explain what you're trying to do, and where is the subcategory? Flood geology is most definitely a pseudoscience, so if you don't think it is, we should discuss it on the talk page of the article. However, if there is some wiki thing that I don't quite understand, then a quick explanation will be very nice!!!! Thanks, I appreciate your taking your time to guide me in this matter. Orangemarlin 20:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Similarly, please do not remove the pseudoscience cat from homeopathy - the removal/insertion of the cat has caused rancorous disagreements on the talk page, and the current consensus is that it should stay. Skinwalker 23:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
As Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines says,
So far so good, but then #3 continues "However there are occasions when this guideline can and should be ignored." So then it's a judgement call, balancing the problem of finding anything in a huge list against having to look through subcategories to get to what you want. The main point is that cats are not there to label articles or their subjects, they're to find related articles. Have fun, ... dave souza, talk 21:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm wondering if one of the subcats needs to be here. Category:Fringe subjects without critical scientific evaluation doesn't really seem to fit. When you consider the history of geology, it was all flood geology to start with. That model was gradually rejected as scientific evidence contradicting it piled up. So yes, this has been subjected to critical scientific evaluation. It's just that it happened a very long time ago, and no evidence has surfaced in the meantime to compel a re-evaluation. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence and citations from the article:
However, even this proposed mechanism would produce molecules composed of material from the bone itself. [2] [3]
These two articles discuss plant material, do not make any inferences on discounting age of fossils, and don't really seem relevant to disputing fossil ages. We can put it back in when the editor gives some explanation of the logic, and we all agree to said logic. Orangemarlin 17:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The point that I (apparently only vaugely approached) was attempting to show was that the material would most likely still be from the original animal (and at least one of the papers should have also mentioned weevils also. If not, there is one that does). Dan Watts 18:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>Dan first of all the rules apply to everyone, not just favorites. SA, I don't get your points. This article is called "Flood geology", so it is in essence a Creationist article. No, I don't mean it's "owned" by Creationists, it's just that it's part of the category. If we don't allow the writing of the article to include Creation based references, then honestly the article can't be written. Look at Creation science and other ones like it. The quote that Dan used is no better nor any worse than any other reference from CRSQ. Creationists completely dispute our interpretation of scientific research--we dispute theirs. SA, the science part of this article balances out the pseudoscience. Any reasonable person will be able to see that. Orangemarlin 15:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
<Reduce indent> Well there are several "Creationist" journals and of course there is the anti-Talk.origins sites. If a creationist is going to write dogma in these articles, it better be sourced dogma. That makes it POV, but sourced POV. Orangemarlin 18:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
What does any of this have to do with the subject of the article? "Flood geology" is specifically the pseudoscience of trying to reconcile the geological record with the Biblical flood story. The end of the Pleistocene may be recent geologically, but in terms of human history was very long ago. In what sense could the evidence discussed be related to the Biblical flood? TCC (talk) (contribs) 16:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this page for a while, as there was a lot of IP disturbance. These edits in particular are problematic, as the sources cited do not seem to verify the information they purport to support. For example, the sentence which reads Evidence that there was a large comet impact event on the Laurentian Ice Sheet covering Northern Canada towards the end of the Ice Age that suddenly triggered a mega super flood of several super floods occurring simultaneously. was supported by this link, which mentions the word "flood" just once, with no mention of superfloods, or of numerous superfloods occurring simultaneously. Other "sources" appear equally problematic, and as this sort of material has been added numerous times recently by various IPs, semi-protection may be in order. Comments? Firsfron of Ronchester 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Orangemarlin reverted my contributions with the rather oblique comment that this is a "creationist" article. I point out that there is no such thing as a "creationist" article on Wikipedia. All articles are representive of the entire encyclopedia and are not owned by any one perspective or ideology. We need to be aware of the policies of verifiability, reliability, and neutrality when reporting on these subjects. As such, my contributions represent a more verifiable, reliable, and neutral (that is, dispassionate) treatment of the subject. If other editors disagree with me, I challenge them to make their cases directly rather than simply reverting. -- ScienceApologist 02:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Comment: Regardless of who made the edit originally, as Bishonen has about 30 FAs to her credit, I'd tend to listen to her judgment about edits. SA, I don't know if it was a bad day for you, or what prompted you to make your edit summary so accusatory, but IMO you may wish to apologise and mend fences. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I reverted this statement at the top of article: (Note: The term "scientist" is this article refers to the vast majority of scientists, and excludes "creationist scientists" except where indicated.) I'm not sure why it's there. Scientist is a standard term. Creation scientists should be identified as such, since they don't follow scientific method. Orangemarlin 03:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Even if you have a phd in science, if you stop using the scientific method, then you are not really acting as a scientist. As an example, if a doctor stops using medicine to treat people, but instead uses discredited voodoo nonsense, then he will likely lose his license and no longer be regarded as or referred to as a doctor. The same is true of creation scientists. They have voluntarily decided to no longer be scientists. The presence of the word "science" does not mean that there is any science involved in their practice, just as Christian scientists or scientologists are not scientists.-- Filll 02:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Once you decide to use magic, it is no longer science. And that is that. However, there are many other reasons why they are not doing science which I will not bother to list here. I will just point out that even the US Supreme Court agrees with me. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with the US Supreme Court...-- Filll 03:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
(un-dent)I agree that the most problematic term is "creation scientists". Perhaps a solution would be to simply use whatever combination of "creationist" and "scientist" is most accurate, prefixing either or both with "non-" if necessary to be more exact. So, a believer in creationism or creation science would be referred to just as a "creationist". I see no need to distinguish between the two in most articles. A scientist who believes in creationism would be referred to as a "creationist scientist". We can leave it to the reader to notice or ignore any contradiction in terms implied there. It's not our job to worry about inconsistencies; just to report them. If it becomes necessary in cases such as rossnixon's example above, we could use the term "non-creationist scientists" to make it clear that we were deliberately excluding those who have scientific qualifications but nevertheless believe in creationism. SheffieldSteel 13:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
We definitely should use the terms "creation scientists" and "creation science" because these are the terms in common usage and the terms that this creationist community has chosen for itself. This is no different than the Christian Scientists or the Scientologists. In fact, using this phrase but making clear that everything they stand for in this area is not at all supported by any reputable scientist and is clear nonsense reflects very negatively on them. This makes it clear that their agenda is one of dishonesty and perfidity and deceitfulness. Which fits in with many other parts of the fundamentalist agenda. So I say, leave the name and term alone. It makes them look awful, as it should. They deserve it. -- Filll 17:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Filll - a scientist who is not "acting as a scientist" is still a scientist. Orangemarlin - "Creation scientists" sometimes do science & sometimes do pseudoscience. In fact this is true of all scientists! It's the same thing as AGW alarmists do - sometimes science, sometimes pseudoscience. They are scientists regardless. The argument here is not whether "Creation science" is scientific or not. The question is whether "scientist" excludes "scientists who are creationists". I have not seen a valid argument that they are not scientists. I propose (again) that an explanatory note be added to the top of the article. It may not be usual Wiki style, but obviates the need to qualify "scientist" wherever it occurs in the article. ross nixon 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> A similar discussion came up at Talk:Creationism#Clarification of the clarification and the question of creation science was particularly addressed by the McLean v. Arkansas Decision by U.S. District Court Judge William R. Overton in January 1982, in which creation science proponents are referred to as creationists, as for example "The creationist organizations consider the introduction of creation science into the public schools part of their ministry." [16] There could be merit in having a statement at the top of article: (Note: The term "scientist" is this article refers to those who follow the scientific method, proponents of "creationist science" are described as "creationists".). .... dave souza, talk 13:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
<Reduce indent>It is hard to keep up with these conversations. The standard that establishes what makes a scientist is complex, but I guess it fits back with the old "if it looks like duck, walks like a duck and quacks, it must be a duck." (Apologies for not getting that completely right.) A scientist, to me, should have a graduate degree in a natural science (physics, biology, chemistry or related disciplines) from a respected university anywhere in the world. They should engage in research in one of those scientific fields and publish in peer-reviewed journals. I am a scientist by those standards (although I have a grand total of two publications, separated by 10 years, and the last one 10 years ago, and the last time I did research of any type was 20 years ago). I won't grant the moniker of scientist to someone who claims that he is a scientists, although there are a great number of people who understand science and the scientific method, and only accept results that arise out of the scientific method. For example, most physicians aren't scientists by my definition, but they will only practice using techniques tested and established by research using valid scientific methodology.
Homeopathy another junk pseudoscience along with
Creation science does not utilize scientific methods to establish a hypothesis and to test that hypothesis. In both cases they assume the results and find the data to confirm their results. Well, I could prove that the earth is flat by utilizing a certain amount of data. I can lay a level on a 10 meters of ground, and find that it is essentially flat. But I'm utilizing just a piece of the totality of data to confirm my hypothesis. I am all right with the fact that creationists have faith in what they believe. That is perfectly acceptable to me intellectually. But it is an insult to that faith to try to prove what is unprovable, or to test what is untestable. It can't happen.
Orangemarlin
21:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
The is Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
20:09, 26 June 2007 Art Carlson (Talk | contribs) (56,002 bytes) (Undid revision 140803746 by Yqbd (talk) unsourced)
20:04, 26 June 2007 Yqbd (Talk | contribs) (56,099 bytes) (→Comparison with geology - Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past. Anthropologists generally reject this view and highlight the fact that much of the human population lives near water sources such as rivers and coasts, where unusually severe floods can be expected to occur occasionally and will be recorded in tribal mythology. Some commentators have suggested that a massive local flood in the Black Sea area, or possibly even the huge rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age, may be responsible for the preponderance of the flood myths in the Near East and across the world. Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
The source for the edit is the same source used for the rest of the paragraph.
I believe "Believers in Flood Geology" suggest flood stories is evidence of an actual event in the historic past not just because the flood stories have a flood. The flood stories have other similar details like names, people, number of people. "Anthropologists" and "commentators" respond to the event of a flood by saying local floods happen. I do not see an explanation about the other details in flood stories from "anthropologists" and "commentators". Therefore, Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories. -- Yqbd 20:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they s The is Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories.
(cur) (last) 21:01, 26 June 2007 Jim62sch (Talk | contribs) (56,002 bytes) (rv to last good edit by Art) (cur) (last) 20:51, 26 June 2007 Yqbd (Talk | contribs) (56,104 bytes) (→Comparison with geology - because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories.)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories. Anthropologists generally reject this view and highlight the fact that much of the human population lives near water sources such as rivers and coasts, where unusually severe floods can be expected to occur occasionally and will be recorded in tribal mythology. Some commentators have suggested that a massive local flood in the Black Sea area, or possibly even the huge rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age, may be responsible for the preponderance of the flood myths in the Near East and across the world.
The source of the edit is Flood stories and the same source of Believers in Flood Geology also point out. The edit also better explains why they suggest flood stories with similar details are "evidence of an actual event in the historic past". -- Yqbd 21:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to add these to the article for me. -- Yqbd 22:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
“... there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203.
I tagged the section with a weasel words tag (for using the words "some" and "most" here and there), and tagged specific sentences and phrases requiring citations. Please do not remove these tags; either find proper citations or delete the sentences. - Amatulic 04:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty disgusted with the treatment of an annonymous user by users I have normally respected on this page. I told a geologist friend and colleague about this page today and she went in and made a number of good faith edits to this article under the CCC IP. She told me this afternoon that she had to report one editor for 3RR and was generally finding it impossible to edit since most of her edits were reverted almost immediately.
Now, I realize that there is a close-nit Wikipedia cultural inertia at work here, but I expected more good faith consideration to be extended then what I saw in the article. The quality of her contributions were described by some as vandalism which seemed to me to be the height of absurdity. Seems to me that I made the right decision in leaving this community.
She asked me to make an edit to the section she found particularly damaging (regarding the preponderance of global flood stories) because she was afraid that touching the section would violate 3RR. Now I realize that I'm acting as her meat puppet in this case, but I hope to be extended some forgiveness in light of the shoddy treatment this user received. I was shocked to see what kind of prose was considered better than hers by many of the Wikipedians.
This group should be ashamed of themselves.
ScienceApologist 20:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Being lectured by SA on proper etiquette on WP? Well, I hardly know what to say to that, given what I have observed over the months. I realize that it is tempting to firebomb creationist views away, and not even include them at all in WP, even in articles about creationist views. However, we should at least describe what those views are and provide links and references to them so the interested reader can understand the players and the playing field. This reminds me of previous interactions with SA, where his aggressive tendencies seemed to result in way over the line editing and edit warring and assorted insults and charges etc.--
Filll
11:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This section is certainly relevant (I think the discussion of Augustine's views is especially interesting). However, it is mostly a general discussion of Biblical accuracy and does not focus on the Flood. I'd like to prune it (maybe moving part of it to another article... Young Earth creationism or Biblical inerrancy). Any thoughts? -- Jpacold 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
O.K. Schroeder, since you have reverted the edit on Age of the Earth, PLEASE supply a REFERENCE for the unneeded initial concentrations and non-closed-system hypotheses. I.e., SHOW haw isochron analyses sidestep these issues. Dan Watts 00:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
From the perspective of the creation/evolution debate, this website is informative, though very basic in how it illustrates this. It would be better if you looked at one of the textbooks they reference. However, the paragraph in the above work is quite illuminating:
To really "SHOW" how the isochrons "sidestep" the issues, we'd have to go into detail about each condition in which you were interested: all the energy regimes, and the particular parameter analysis that is done. Joshuaschroeder 00:52, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way the "initial amount" argument doesn't really make any sense since the dating is done by means of parameter fitting where the initial amount itself is a parameter that is fit -- not assumed. As explained in the above article:
What the article doesn't do is say exactly how the "comparisons" get done which is by means of normal parameter fitting. It is fully rigorous from a physical standpoint and the errors are characterized well by the central limit theorem since there are enough systems to give a decent gaussian model. Joshuaschroeder 00:56, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is there an incorrect characterization of the T. Rex bone in this article? The investigator in the linked article was reprted as saying "This is fossilised bone in the sense that it's from an extinct animal but it doesn't have a lot of the characteristics of what people would call a fossil.... It still has places where there are no secondary minerals, and it's not any more dense than modern bone; it's bone more than anything." Why (other than dislike of the article subject) is there a rejection of the bone not being completely fossilized (mineral replacement)? In an online Washington Post article [1] it gives more detail concerning the demineralization: '[They] remove[d] the mineralized calcium', i.e. the solid matrix of the bone. If there is no explanation forthcoming within a few days, I propose that the (not supported by evidence) sentence ("But the tissue is fossilized, and appears to be flexible and contain cells and vessels only after demineralization."), which is at LEAST misleading, be removed. Dan Watts 15:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If the global flood actually occured, then it would have had a radical effect on geology, and evidence of that flood would be observable today, making the idea falsifiable. Conclusive evidence exists that such a flood did not occur, making a global flood in historic times a myth according to science. Belief in the supernatural allows for belief in such a flood, but because it relies on the supernatural to explain away evidence, it is not a valid scientific theory. 4.250.177.59 4 July 2005 23:31 (UTC)
One thing I've noticed is that this (on the page) seems to be a battle between "creationists" and "mainstream scientists", but in reality it is against a very small group (we could call them "creationists" or "flood geologists" or whatever) versus pretty much the entire population of the planet in the developed world, and most of it which isn't in the developed world to boot. This seems to be a common problem; evolution also essentially has the same problem in the creation v evolution articles, that far more people support it than is presented. And as for their obviously being conclusive evidence that there was no flood - yes, there is, but we aren't allowed to say so much. We are supposed to show reality, though - a mistake many make is that NPOV = give everyone equal time or equal credence to all opinions. That is not the case; we are supposed to present all opinions and not draw conclusions for the reader, but we are supposed to present evidence as well which (in this case at the very least) should show the reader that flood geology is in fact incorrect. If you feel that this is not presented strongly enough at the criticisms section at the end of the article, please add or reword it. 69.59.212.172 18:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Surely, the attempt of all scientific research and analysis is to find the true science which runs throughout the world. Sadly, as the majority of scientists presume that evolution is the ultimate truth to our origins without questioning it's validity in many cases, Creationism is disregarded as a valid theory. How you can automatically assume that flood geology is incorrect I do not know. There are so many situations which fit perfectly with the flood which do not fit with that of the mainstream scientists' view. For instance, could you please explain to me the prescence of feldspar on the Atlantic Ocean sea bed? Surely this could only have been sedimented if the bed had been formed in a short amount of time. There are several other facts which do not fit with mainstrea geology but do with the Young Earth Creationists' theories. In light of this, I would ask that you present the scientific VIEWS of the Creationist on flood geology at least, and not simply disclaim it in one swift blow. Presumptions are applied to the flood geologists' view which apply to mainstream science, which may not be true if the flood geologists' stance is correct.
"On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis: an unfinished book", Chapter 19:39
Augustine was NOT taking to task the 'reliability of Genesis', as the misquoted text is headed; rather, he was speaking about talking nonsense--perhaps, for example, being dogmatic about Arguments creationists should not use--and failing to maintain Christian integrity ("...maintaining his [the Christian's] foolish opinions about our books [the Bible] ..."). Furthermore, this passage is taken out of context of the whole (a/k/a quote mining), as Augustine goes on in Chapter 20 to condemn those that would take the word of men over the Word of God (which definitely shows he was not against the reliability of Scripture):
Therefore, I think that the quote from Augustine should be corrected, or stricken entirely. -- 138.130.203.177 16:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Is there a single quote anywhere that shows a notable proponent of flood geology dismissing "uniformitarianism"? This word is peppered throughout this article, and several statements are made regarding what flood-geologists think of it and what mainstream-geologists think of it. However, there isn't a single quote anywhere to support any of these claims. can anyone find some URL's that show what flood-geologists say in response to "uniformitarianism"? Otherwise, I think some of the article will need rewriting to avoid the term. FuelWagon 17:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
fuelwagon, i added a bit from a cited, sourced paper by grimel on the ideological origins of uniformitarians, per your request. Ungtss 19:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
My browser edit window kills the page after about 30K, which means, when I edited the intro, it cut the page off in the middle of section 6. If somebody could please revert past my edits, I'd me much obliged. My apologies! Neocapitalist 15:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Umm -- proposed incorporation of ' pseudoscience' in the ntro:
Thoughts? Neocapitalist 15:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Try two:
Neocapitalist 18:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Calling creationism "pseudoscience," and giving the philosophical objections of mainstream science the last word, shows a strong post-Christian bias in the article. Alfarero 00:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
why, duncharris and ian pitchford, do you insist on removing this cited academic material precisely on topic? is it because you think it's wrong? is your opinion the slighest bit relevent? -- ungtss
I'm wondering if your still unsure how gender evolved. - Roy Boy 800 20:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This article [4] mayhave some bearing on the 'swimming grass' phenomenon. An associated AP report gives a (uniformitarian) date for grass to have appeared of at least 80 Myrs ago. Dan Watts 03:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused by this section:
"If fossilization took place extremely quickly during the Flood, then — paleontologists claim — fossilized remains should be far more numerous and widespread than is actually seen." "Additionally, paleontologists claim that if all the fossilized animals were killed in the flood, and the flood is responsible for fossilization, then the average density of vertebrates was an abnormally high number."
The first paragraph seems to say that fossilized remains are too few. The second paragraph seems to say that fossilized remains are too many. I'm not sure what was intended, but it should be fixed.
I'm sure this will have been discussed before, but is it really necessary to describe science as "mainstream science" (or geology as "mainstream geology")? It gives the impression that flood geology is also science, albeit a minority viewpoint, despite the point at the head of the article that specifically relegates flood "geology" to pseudoscience. Furthermore, in a media-savvy world, "mainstream" has connotations that don't flatter science. -- Plumbago 09:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I worked as a Geologist with the
British Geological Survey, and was interested to see that there are none of
Velikovsky's books in the library there. In fact, Velikovsky drew together a large amount of geological evidence for catastrophic events - which are now the basis for mainstream geology. In the 1950's we liked to think of nature as being stable and predictable rather than producing catastrophic events of civilisation-shattering proportions in short timeframes. But he did it in such a controversial manner, too many years before his time, that he's been expunged to the dungeons of pseudoscience. Since rapid gelogical events have become acceptable, even some large quartzitic metal deposits are thought to be capable of being created in a matter of hours or days. I'm not sure about the biblical flood covering the whole world, but there is now some pretty good evidence for something along that scale when the
Black Sea
flooded about 5600BC.
The thing about the bible is that if you don't believe every word is true, there is a lot of historical basis. And I guess some of it must be allegory. However, given the discovery of mercury under the Chinese emperor's tomb, it makes you wonder how much old "mythology" is really based on fact. Dictostelium 16:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
<undent> It is very hard to argue that creation scientists are scientists, at least in the areas concerned with evolution, flood geology and similar fields. That is why creation scientist is more synomous with religious apologist-- Filll 01:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>You are free to believe whatever you like personally. However, it does not necessarily belong in the public square, including venues like public schools or secular encyclopedias like Wikipedia. If you call anyone with a science degree a scientist, you are engaging in obscene qualification inflation which I do not believe we should permit. For example,
There is no assumption made about loss or retention of either parent or daughter nuclei when one makes a determination of an age based on radiometric dating. All that is assumed is that the rates are known and then the parameters are fit. If one of the nuclei is out of equilibrium with other radionuclides, then the composition problems can be parametrized. However, no assumption is made as to the retention of components since the parameter fitting analysis allows for this to be fitted along with the age. -- Joshuaschroeder 20:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
This passage does not show a "priori" when examining data. It merely shows a SCIENTIFIC approach and thus i resolve it should be deleted. I haven't done it yet, to allow for commentary and so a consensus can be formed. The offending passage is
"It is worth noting that the founders of uniformitarianism likewise had an a priori commitment before examining the evidence. For example, James Hutton, the "Founder of Modern Geology", suggested :
"the past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now … No powers are to be employed that are not natural to the globe, no action to be admitted except those of which we know the principle" (emphasis added)
(from ‘Theory of the Earth’, a paper (with the same title of his 1795 book) communicated to the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and published in Transactions of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, 1785)"
Is there support for the statement below which appears in the Vapor Canopy section? If not, this should be removed as it would show a biased point of view.
. The vapor canopy model has lost favour and is no longer accepted by most creationist scientists.
65.165.142.98 21:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Pat
mammoths with grass in their mouths is proof of rapid freezing? er........ how?
the flood does not explain any sedimentary phenomena whatsoever.
this page gives this farce of a science way too much attention. someone shorten it.
it isn't a "hypothesis" unless it is going to be tested with observations. Since the explanation for the single fossil found is not going to be tested, the explanation is not a hypothesis. However, neither is it a guess because it is based on the understanding provided by context and other observations as well as knowledge of physical processes. -- ScienceApologist 05:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to me not to be neutral. I for one do not believe in a young earth, but the article as a whole seems bent towards an old-earth, evolutionist standpoint, and does not appear objective. Maybe a disputed neutrality tag should be added? -- scienceman 01:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Since this article is already longer than the recommended Wikpedia article length, I want to suggest some changes to move less relevant information to more relevant pages. In particular "Reliability of Genesis" has nothing to do with Geology, and shouldn't be on this page. "Philosophical Objections" doesn't really belong here either - perhaps a one-sentence comment would be merited, but not a whole section. [edit: I have subsequently extended this section to make it more balanced, but maintain it would be better for the whole section to be moved elsewhere.] Similarly "Age of the Earth" is not directly relevant to Flood Geology, so merits a single sentence in the introduction, and then should be dealt with more fully under other creationist topics.
In addition to this, much of the information presented as being what Flood Geologists believe is actually not correct because, as my inclusion of the section "How creationists interpret the GC" was intended to show, there is no single "Flood Geology" paradigm. This page would be better off giving a general overview of things that are broadly agreed today (rather than 30 years ago) in the creationist community, particularly discussing the problems with conventional geology that a new (catastrophist) geological paradigm has the potential to solve. Information specific to particular Flood models should then be discussed in separate articles, rather than giving the impression that Flood Geology is a monolithic entity. This would improve both the accuracy and the clarity of this article.
As an an example of how this page ought to look, I just looked up "Physics", "Chemistry" and "Geology" - each of which contains a brief overview of the history and main ideas of the discipline, and links to other pages that explore the detail, rather than trying to prove or disprove everything on one page. Any comments? -- Ephrathah 15:39 (UTC) 12 September 2006
If you're going to include philosophical points from one side you must allow a response or the article is strongly POV. What was wrong with my additions? Please put them back (edited if you must). I request a disputed neutrality flag be added to this page. -- Ephrathah 11:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
This puts "mainstream science" (geologic age of the theory: blink of an eye) in the place of both co-defendant and judge. Criticisms of the theory, as you mentioned, belong on the respective pages of their theories' proponents rather than on this page. It's time for an explanation, not an evaluation.
The philosophical objections are just sophistical fallacies. Perhaps a joke will explain:
Greene and Hawking decided to have a contest with God. "People don't need you anymore," Hawking said. "We can make life in a test tube from dirt."
"You're on!" said God. "You go first."
Greene stooped down to grab a handful of dirt.
"'Scuse me?" God interrupted. "Go get your own dirt!" Alfarero 01:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't think this is about epistemology or logical consistency. Instead, I believe it's like Jesus said: "Whoever will not accept the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." God is not someone we impress with logic. Sorry about that. Alfarero 03:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Where do flood geologists believe the flood waters went to? How can thousands of feet of water just disappear after a flood? I think there should be some discussion, at least, on this topic. Brokenskittles 02:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Have removed link to 'recolonisation' – no article under this head and any such article would transgress the Wikipedia prohibition of original research. ‘Recolonisation’ amended to ‘recolonisation theory’ to limit the term.
Have added some detail to say what recolonisation theory is.
Have deleted:
The main reasons put forward to support this hypothesis are (1) that it offers an explanation for why the fossils (particularly vertebrate trackways) are concentrated towards the end of the fossil record, not the beginning as would be expected if the Flood laid down the rocks, and (2) that it offers an explanation for rocks that don't appear to have been laid down underwater or that appear to have taken years or decades to form. The main arguments against recolonisation are (1) that it appears to require a far longer timescale than a straightforward reading of Genesis would allow, and (2) that it requires a lot of post-Flood destruction in a relatively short time, which humans, animals and plants may not have been able to survive outside the Ark.
This is on the grounds of space, which is perhaps more usefully devoted to explaining what the theory consists of. The 'main arguments against recolonisation' are main arguments only from the point of view of YECs. Proponents of recolonisation have gone to some length to explain why the YEC interpretation of the genealogies as if they gave a chronology is not a straightforward exercise. When making the second criticism YECs understand 'a relatively short time' to mean a few hundred years, not the possibly tens of thousands that the main proponent of recolonisation (Steven Robinson) has been suggesting for post-Flood time. Fastnet 10:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there no research going on into Flood Geology? I mean, I know everyone likes to say that it's not really science, but if you look at it, there's no reason why it has to be, say, unfalsifiable. Mainstream geology can't be reproduced because of the crazy timescales involved, sure, but a laboratory-based recreation of the flood, sedimentation of different animal carcasses etc. should be complete in only forty days or so.
So where's the research? It must be out there somewhere... and I think this article is exactly the place where it should be documented. SheffieldSteel 21:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
(undent) No sir, I am far from bored by this debate. I'm still surprised, not to say a little disappointed, that all these flood geologists, creation scientists, and institutes of discovery have not managed between them to publish the results of any experiments featuring mammals / saurians / amphibians / birds being differentially buried in sediment after forty days and forty nights of suitable drenching, pummelling, and so on. But hey, since that isn't happening, I think I will go and poke about at the article and see if I can't improve it ;-) SheffieldSteel 19:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Australia has been populated for at least 51,000 years. But there was no civilisation on the continent until it was colonised by Europeans. Australia has no indigenous plants suitable for agriculture. The Aborigines never got the chance to learn it from others ether. Consequently, the very basis for civilisation was lacking! Aboriginal culture was no civilisation any more then the Aurignacian culture.
2007-03-20 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
Is this someone's idea of a encyclopedia article? Where are all the necessary citations as per Wikipedia rules? 128.205.191.52 22:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
So, an off-the cuff response to a perceived threat to long ages is O.K.? Dan Watts 03:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
<reducing indent> In life sciences? Probably 10,000, maybe more. In Paleontology, geology and the earth sciences? Probably 2-3 thousand. In Radiometric dating? Maybe a hundred. But once again, please list out a referece anywhere that is peer-reviewed and support your POV. Orangemarlin 01:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I just randomly chose one of your references. RADIOCARBON, VOL 28, No. 2A, 1986, P 215-222. Did you read it? I guess you missed the discussion and conclusions that stated how much they helped archeologists determine the age of wood samples. Anyways, this isn't getting anywhere. T. Rex died out 70 or so million years ago. There was no flood (maybe some local ones, such as the Minoan eruption that helped create the Exodus myth). Etc. etc. Orangemarlin 01:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is done. You are too uncivil to continue, and this is a repeat of a prior one, in which you provided no new or verifiable information. Orangemarlin 01:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>Once again Dan, your lack of civility makes it difficult to want to engage in this conversation. I randomly took one of your references, and it proved nothing. Why should I waste my time doing anything further? It only shows me that you failed to do your research, because if you had, you would not have put in those references. There is no C14 with T. Rex, because, per above, the C14 has gone through so many half-lives, that it's impossible even with the most sensitive of equipment. Lastly, Coelecanth?? Give me a break. First of all, today's species have evolved over the past 65 million years, although not in any remarkable way. There are enough species that have not that it is not unique. Second, the lack of fossils is a result of where it lives, deep water, where the sedimentary rocks are rarely uplifted to a place on land where the rocks would erode to find the fossils. I don't mind engaging in these type of discussions, but I prefer the other party to have facts in hand. You do not. Orangemarlin 19:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to assume that an isotope with a relatively short half-life is not suitable for dating older materials - as has been explained above - and since competent people tend to use the best tool for the job, 14C dating will tend not to be used for older specimens, hence most of the results you'll see for that technique will be younger ages. SheffieldSteel 22:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
<Reducing indent once again> So? What is your point? The article wasn't speaking about 10's of millions of years but just a few. You pick out a singular quote and try to prove everything about Creationism with it? Huh? Orangemarlin 19:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed the Pseudoscience category tag from the page, because it already includes Category:Creation Science which is a subcategory. I'm trying to clean up the pseudoscience category, which contains huge amounts of redundancy due to the multiple vertical categories on many of its member pages.
Personally, I think creation science is nuts and is quite obviously pseudoscience. However, that's not the point of the pseudoscience category. We're not allowed to label things as pseudoscience, but only to point out what other verifiable sources say. The point of the category is to declare that there is an association between the topic of the article and the topic of pseudoscience, which is why skeptics like Michael Shermer are included in the category, as well as general concepts like False precision that show up in pseudoscientific theories with some frequency. As such, we only need to show that there is a notable association between Flood geology and pseudoscience, which there undoubtedly is (even the supporters would have to admit this).
So, I didn't remove the category because I don't think Flood geology is pseudoscience (quite the contrary) but rather because it's already included under a sub-category of pseudoscience, and I'm trying to reduce clutter in that category.
Unless there are further objections (I'll wait a while) I'd like to remove the redundant category. -- Sapphic 20:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'm opposed to using the category system as a means of "tagging" articles. The article clealy states that flood geology is pseudoscience, and that's where those labels should be applied (and referenced, which they are). The category system is meant as an aid to navigation, and as such it actually makes the pseudoscience category less useful to overload it with redundant listings in both the parent category and one or more sub-categories. If you want to make the fact that flood geology is pseudoscience more prominent, I would suggest doing so in the article itself, rather than cluttering the category. A "see also" section that includes pseudoscience is a good option, and one that many other similar articles have taken. -- Sapphic 22:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed that you removed the pseudoscience category from the article. You said it was already within a subcategory. Well, first, I couldn't find a subcategory, so I assumed (I know, my bad) that it was some underhanded attempt to hide the category, because, zout alors, you were trying to do something sneaky. Then I looked at your contributions, and you did it to dozens of articles (well, i gave up counting). Can you please explain what you're trying to do, and where is the subcategory? Flood geology is most definitely a pseudoscience, so if you don't think it is, we should discuss it on the talk page of the article. However, if there is some wiki thing that I don't quite understand, then a quick explanation will be very nice!!!! Thanks, I appreciate your taking your time to guide me in this matter. Orangemarlin 20:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Similarly, please do not remove the pseudoscience cat from homeopathy - the removal/insertion of the cat has caused rancorous disagreements on the talk page, and the current consensus is that it should stay. Skinwalker 23:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
As Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines says,
So far so good, but then #3 continues "However there are occasions when this guideline can and should be ignored." So then it's a judgement call, balancing the problem of finding anything in a huge list against having to look through subcategories to get to what you want. The main point is that cats are not there to label articles or their subjects, they're to find related articles. Have fun, ... dave souza, talk 21:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm wondering if one of the subcats needs to be here. Category:Fringe subjects without critical scientific evaluation doesn't really seem to fit. When you consider the history of geology, it was all flood geology to start with. That model was gradually rejected as scientific evidence contradicting it piled up. So yes, this has been subjected to critical scientific evaluation. It's just that it happened a very long time ago, and no evidence has surfaced in the meantime to compel a re-evaluation. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence and citations from the article:
However, even this proposed mechanism would produce molecules composed of material from the bone itself. [2] [3]
These two articles discuss plant material, do not make any inferences on discounting age of fossils, and don't really seem relevant to disputing fossil ages. We can put it back in when the editor gives some explanation of the logic, and we all agree to said logic. Orangemarlin 17:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The point that I (apparently only vaugely approached) was attempting to show was that the material would most likely still be from the original animal (and at least one of the papers should have also mentioned weevils also. If not, there is one that does). Dan Watts 18:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>Dan first of all the rules apply to everyone, not just favorites. SA, I don't get your points. This article is called "Flood geology", so it is in essence a Creationist article. No, I don't mean it's "owned" by Creationists, it's just that it's part of the category. If we don't allow the writing of the article to include Creation based references, then honestly the article can't be written. Look at Creation science and other ones like it. The quote that Dan used is no better nor any worse than any other reference from CRSQ. Creationists completely dispute our interpretation of scientific research--we dispute theirs. SA, the science part of this article balances out the pseudoscience. Any reasonable person will be able to see that. Orangemarlin 15:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
<Reduce indent> Well there are several "Creationist" journals and of course there is the anti-Talk.origins sites. If a creationist is going to write dogma in these articles, it better be sourced dogma. That makes it POV, but sourced POV. Orangemarlin 18:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
What does any of this have to do with the subject of the article? "Flood geology" is specifically the pseudoscience of trying to reconcile the geological record with the Biblical flood story. The end of the Pleistocene may be recent geologically, but in terms of human history was very long ago. In what sense could the evidence discussed be related to the Biblical flood? TCC (talk) (contribs) 16:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this page for a while, as there was a lot of IP disturbance. These edits in particular are problematic, as the sources cited do not seem to verify the information they purport to support. For example, the sentence which reads Evidence that there was a large comet impact event on the Laurentian Ice Sheet covering Northern Canada towards the end of the Ice Age that suddenly triggered a mega super flood of several super floods occurring simultaneously. was supported by this link, which mentions the word "flood" just once, with no mention of superfloods, or of numerous superfloods occurring simultaneously. Other "sources" appear equally problematic, and as this sort of material has been added numerous times recently by various IPs, semi-protection may be in order. Comments? Firsfron of Ronchester 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Orangemarlin reverted my contributions with the rather oblique comment that this is a "creationist" article. I point out that there is no such thing as a "creationist" article on Wikipedia. All articles are representive of the entire encyclopedia and are not owned by any one perspective or ideology. We need to be aware of the policies of verifiability, reliability, and neutrality when reporting on these subjects. As such, my contributions represent a more verifiable, reliable, and neutral (that is, dispassionate) treatment of the subject. If other editors disagree with me, I challenge them to make their cases directly rather than simply reverting. -- ScienceApologist 02:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Comment: Regardless of who made the edit originally, as Bishonen has about 30 FAs to her credit, I'd tend to listen to her judgment about edits. SA, I don't know if it was a bad day for you, or what prompted you to make your edit summary so accusatory, but IMO you may wish to apologise and mend fences. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I reverted this statement at the top of article: (Note: The term "scientist" is this article refers to the vast majority of scientists, and excludes "creationist scientists" except where indicated.) I'm not sure why it's there. Scientist is a standard term. Creation scientists should be identified as such, since they don't follow scientific method. Orangemarlin 03:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Even if you have a phd in science, if you stop using the scientific method, then you are not really acting as a scientist. As an example, if a doctor stops using medicine to treat people, but instead uses discredited voodoo nonsense, then he will likely lose his license and no longer be regarded as or referred to as a doctor. The same is true of creation scientists. They have voluntarily decided to no longer be scientists. The presence of the word "science" does not mean that there is any science involved in their practice, just as Christian scientists or scientologists are not scientists.-- Filll 02:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Once you decide to use magic, it is no longer science. And that is that. However, there are many other reasons why they are not doing science which I will not bother to list here. I will just point out that even the US Supreme Court agrees with me. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with the US Supreme Court...-- Filll 03:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
(un-dent)I agree that the most problematic term is "creation scientists". Perhaps a solution would be to simply use whatever combination of "creationist" and "scientist" is most accurate, prefixing either or both with "non-" if necessary to be more exact. So, a believer in creationism or creation science would be referred to just as a "creationist". I see no need to distinguish between the two in most articles. A scientist who believes in creationism would be referred to as a "creationist scientist". We can leave it to the reader to notice or ignore any contradiction in terms implied there. It's not our job to worry about inconsistencies; just to report them. If it becomes necessary in cases such as rossnixon's example above, we could use the term "non-creationist scientists" to make it clear that we were deliberately excluding those who have scientific qualifications but nevertheless believe in creationism. SheffieldSteel 13:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
We definitely should use the terms "creation scientists" and "creation science" because these are the terms in common usage and the terms that this creationist community has chosen for itself. This is no different than the Christian Scientists or the Scientologists. In fact, using this phrase but making clear that everything they stand for in this area is not at all supported by any reputable scientist and is clear nonsense reflects very negatively on them. This makes it clear that their agenda is one of dishonesty and perfidity and deceitfulness. Which fits in with many other parts of the fundamentalist agenda. So I say, leave the name and term alone. It makes them look awful, as it should. They deserve it. -- Filll 17:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Filll - a scientist who is not "acting as a scientist" is still a scientist. Orangemarlin - "Creation scientists" sometimes do science & sometimes do pseudoscience. In fact this is true of all scientists! It's the same thing as AGW alarmists do - sometimes science, sometimes pseudoscience. They are scientists regardless. The argument here is not whether "Creation science" is scientific or not. The question is whether "scientist" excludes "scientists who are creationists". I have not seen a valid argument that they are not scientists. I propose (again) that an explanatory note be added to the top of the article. It may not be usual Wiki style, but obviates the need to qualify "scientist" wherever it occurs in the article. ross nixon 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> A similar discussion came up at Talk:Creationism#Clarification of the clarification and the question of creation science was particularly addressed by the McLean v. Arkansas Decision by U.S. District Court Judge William R. Overton in January 1982, in which creation science proponents are referred to as creationists, as for example "The creationist organizations consider the introduction of creation science into the public schools part of their ministry." [16] There could be merit in having a statement at the top of article: (Note: The term "scientist" is this article refers to those who follow the scientific method, proponents of "creationist science" are described as "creationists".). .... dave souza, talk 13:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
<Reduce indent>It is hard to keep up with these conversations. The standard that establishes what makes a scientist is complex, but I guess it fits back with the old "if it looks like duck, walks like a duck and quacks, it must be a duck." (Apologies for not getting that completely right.) A scientist, to me, should have a graduate degree in a natural science (physics, biology, chemistry or related disciplines) from a respected university anywhere in the world. They should engage in research in one of those scientific fields and publish in peer-reviewed journals. I am a scientist by those standards (although I have a grand total of two publications, separated by 10 years, and the last one 10 years ago, and the last time I did research of any type was 20 years ago). I won't grant the moniker of scientist to someone who claims that he is a scientists, although there are a great number of people who understand science and the scientific method, and only accept results that arise out of the scientific method. For example, most physicians aren't scientists by my definition, but they will only practice using techniques tested and established by research using valid scientific methodology.
Homeopathy another junk pseudoscience along with
Creation science does not utilize scientific methods to establish a hypothesis and to test that hypothesis. In both cases they assume the results and find the data to confirm their results. Well, I could prove that the earth is flat by utilizing a certain amount of data. I can lay a level on a 10 meters of ground, and find that it is essentially flat. But I'm utilizing just a piece of the totality of data to confirm my hypothesis. I am all right with the fact that creationists have faith in what they believe. That is perfectly acceptable to me intellectually. But it is an insult to that faith to try to prove what is unprovable, or to test what is untestable. It can't happen.
Orangemarlin
21:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
The is Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
20:09, 26 June 2007 Art Carlson (Talk | contribs) (56,002 bytes) (Undid revision 140803746 by Yqbd (talk) unsourced)
20:04, 26 June 2007 Yqbd (Talk | contribs) (56,099 bytes) (→Comparison with geology - Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past. Anthropologists generally reject this view and highlight the fact that much of the human population lives near water sources such as rivers and coasts, where unusually severe floods can be expected to occur occasionally and will be recorded in tribal mythology. Some commentators have suggested that a massive local flood in the Black Sea area, or possibly even the huge rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age, may be responsible for the preponderance of the flood myths in the Near East and across the world. Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories.
The source for the edit is the same source used for the rest of the paragraph.
I believe "Believers in Flood Geology" suggest flood stories is evidence of an actual event in the historic past not just because the flood stories have a flood. The flood stories have other similar details like names, people, number of people. "Anthropologists" and "commentators" respond to the event of a flood by saying local floods happen. I do not see an explanation about the other details in flood stories from "anthropologists" and "commentators". Therefore, Local floods do not explain similar names, people, and other details found in the flood stories. -- Yqbd 20:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they s The is Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories.
(cur) (last) 21:01, 26 June 2007 Jim62sch (Talk | contribs) (56,002 bytes) (rv to last good edit by Art) (cur) (last) 20:51, 26 June 2007 Yqbd (Talk | contribs) (56,104 bytes) (→Comparison with geology - because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories.)
Believers in Flood Geology also point out that flood stories with similar details can be found in many cultures, places and religions, not just in the Bible; this, they suggest, is evidence of an actual event in the historic past because local floods would not explain the similarities in the flood stories. Anthropologists generally reject this view and highlight the fact that much of the human population lives near water sources such as rivers and coasts, where unusually severe floods can be expected to occur occasionally and will be recorded in tribal mythology. Some commentators have suggested that a massive local flood in the Black Sea area, or possibly even the huge rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age, may be responsible for the preponderance of the flood myths in the Near East and across the world.
The source of the edit is Flood stories and the same source of Believers in Flood Geology also point out. The edit also better explains why they suggest flood stories with similar details are "evidence of an actual event in the historic past". -- Yqbd 21:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to add these to the article for me. -- Yqbd 22:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
“... there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203.
I tagged the section with a weasel words tag (for using the words "some" and "most" here and there), and tagged specific sentences and phrases requiring citations. Please do not remove these tags; either find proper citations or delete the sentences. - Amatulic 04:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty disgusted with the treatment of an annonymous user by users I have normally respected on this page. I told a geologist friend and colleague about this page today and she went in and made a number of good faith edits to this article under the CCC IP. She told me this afternoon that she had to report one editor for 3RR and was generally finding it impossible to edit since most of her edits were reverted almost immediately.
Now, I realize that there is a close-nit Wikipedia cultural inertia at work here, but I expected more good faith consideration to be extended then what I saw in the article. The quality of her contributions were described by some as vandalism which seemed to me to be the height of absurdity. Seems to me that I made the right decision in leaving this community.
She asked me to make an edit to the section she found particularly damaging (regarding the preponderance of global flood stories) because she was afraid that touching the section would violate 3RR. Now I realize that I'm acting as her meat puppet in this case, but I hope to be extended some forgiveness in light of the shoddy treatment this user received. I was shocked to see what kind of prose was considered better than hers by many of the Wikipedians.
This group should be ashamed of themselves.
ScienceApologist 20:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Being lectured by SA on proper etiquette on WP? Well, I hardly know what to say to that, given what I have observed over the months. I realize that it is tempting to firebomb creationist views away, and not even include them at all in WP, even in articles about creationist views. However, we should at least describe what those views are and provide links and references to them so the interested reader can understand the players and the playing field. This reminds me of previous interactions with SA, where his aggressive tendencies seemed to result in way over the line editing and edit warring and assorted insults and charges etc.--
Filll
11:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
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