This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
There are several inaccurate attack pieces by the state media that have disregarded the facts plus given that it is in the response section, so that make it difficult to remove. Resignations that may have to do with the election of a new mayor were added as if they were caused by the crisis, which I have fixed. There is nothing regarding earlier bacterial and TTM in the water, which were the original issues which were resolved by adding more chlorine, which caused the stripping the pipes to bring in the lead. Nor any about the lack of citizens with water issue cooperation when requesting to test at their homes to allow them to pin point localized issues. Nothing on early Mayor abusing the Water and Sewer Fund to spend on General Fund expenses instead of updating the water lines that caused his recall and the first Financial emergency in the city. There is also the fact that the city's pipeline records are on index cards, which make it hard to select a proper water test site. Also, this was a factor in the Flint Mayoral election. Spshu ( talk) 17:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "proportion of infants and children with above-average levels of lead in their blood had nearly doubled" doesn't add much understanding to the subject. First, for a symmetric population distribution, 50% would be above average to begin with, so doubling that would imply a huge shift. Of course, this is probably a situation in which the median is below the average. Second, the statement implies that the average lead level is somehow a health standard. The average, we would hope, is way below the level of concern. 24.23.243.160 ( talk) 17:43, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
... to all the editors that contributed to this article. It is shaping up nicely and it is very informative. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The section entitled "Future" needs more than just one sentence saying they plan on joining the KWA at some point. In the more immediate future, what are the plans to mitigate the problem with the damaged pipes? Even if KWA had its pipeline tomorrow, the pipes have problems that need to be reversed. What is being considered? Hermanoere ( talk) 16:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't have time to incorporate some of the info in this article at the moment, but I wanted to flag this very well-written long-form piece:
Anyone is welcome to take a crack at making the appropriate additions. Neutrality talk 19:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
—about the section Celebrity and corporate donations. Starting to become an unwieldy list that may fall foul of WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. An encyclopedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." It may be de rigeur for celeb PR at the moment, but the simple question is, is it encyclopedic? Thoughts, ladies and gents? Keri ( talk) 10:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if this violates any wikipedia rules, but it just seems out of place.
"Had the agreement between Flint and DWSD not been cancelled and Flint continued to receive DWSD water during the construction of KWA, the following events would not have happened as Flint river water would not have been the primary interim water source." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:6000:628:9D94:B135:87E7:5454 ( talk) 03:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been reading up on a few sources that state that the water pollution problem is not limited to Flint, but is also occurring in a number of cities across Michigan as well. 1 2 3 I don't want to bring up a page move discussion just yet, as I don't believe there would be a consensus for such a move, but would it be possible to rewrite the article so that the focus isn't solely on Flint? Philip Terry Graham 20:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Forgive me for not simply adding this to the article, but I've not yet managed to assimilate or understand these reports. [1] [2] [3] [4]
Here are some possibly useful links on the testing [5] [6]
Tarrintoo ( talk) 07:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
The current wording makes it seem that this has to do with the current crisis when it is a separate issue. the current wording is: "Emails obtained by Progress Michigan indicate that Michigan state officials were trucking in bottled water to some of their own employees stationed in Flint as early as January 2015, long before telling residents of the contamination.[4]" As noted by ABC news and other outlets this is NOT lead, ad unrelated to the current containments. It is based on certain buildings in which the state was the landlord and therefore responsible for a landlord, failing on other water quality issues. At the very least the current wording has to reflecting Progress Michigan claims as contested: "Caleb Buhs, a spokesman for the agency that manages state buildings, says the water coolers began in January 2015 after Flint had flunked some drinking water standards apart from the lead contamination that has caused the current crisis. He says the water coolers still are supplied to a state building in Flint. Employees can also use the drinking fountains. Buhs says it was a decision "we made as the building owner" http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-pistons-owner-offers-10m-resolve-flint-woes-36570021 73.132.139.167 ( talk) 01:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Please review this article, which may be a useful counterpoint to the somewhat biased tenor of this Wiki. The article references a memo in which DWSD offers to dramatically reduce their sell prices to Flint. It is not at all uncommon in negotiations for a party to make major capitulations, even last minute. If DWSD did make this offer, it would completely alter the cost savings/ business case justifications upon which the critical decisions were being made to a) make a switch from DWSD at all, b) to resurrect the Karegnondi Water Authority pipeline and c) to float municipal bonds to fund the KWA. When DWSD made this price reduction offer, all actions should have been stopped until the business cases/ cost justification financial models were re-run. So the unanswered question is, "Did they?" a: [1] Shazbat01 ( talk) 21:04, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Th article states: "In January 2015, a public meeting was held, where citizens complained about the "bad water." This is misleading, since in fact the residents first complained about the water's taste, smell and appearance from the get go. Compare The Wsshington Post "APRIL 2014: In an effort to save money, Flint begins drawing its water from the Flint River instead of relying on water from Detroit. The move is considered temporary while the city waits to connect to a new regional water system. Residents immediately complain about the smell, taste and appearance of the water. They also raise health concerns, reporting rashes, hair loss and other problems." Nothing of this is mentioned in the article, nor the entire series of missteps and misrepresenations that ensued during the remainder of 2014. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-timeline-of-the-water-crisis-in-flint-michigan/2016/01/16/cc4d32a2-bc63-11e5-85cd-5ad59bc19432_story.html Orthotox ( talk) 21:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Why did Flint start using Detroit water in the first place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.21.53 ( talk) 02:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
←Resurrect the KWA? It was never defunct and was just recently started. Secondly, MarkMaynard.com clearly states it is a blog not a news outlet, so what he says is not considered a reliable source of information for WP. And just to be complete in absolutely destroying the blog post of Maynard's... The first Markmaynard.com post is also based on an interview with Flint attorney Alec Gibbs, who is suing over retirees' health insurance changes (consolidating down to a few instead of 30 different programs). The KWA is spear headed by DEMOCRATIC Genesee County Drain Commissioner Jeff Wright, who is the CEO of the KWA, not any Republican state led operation. And it was built due to near or double digit percentage increases in Detroit Water cost and general disregard and expectation that Flint should take as much cost on to subsidize Detroit Water (this may have triggered the Detroit water termination notices as Detroit had to actual bill their core territory residents for the full cost). This total demolished this key statement: "Toward the end of our interview, Gibbs mentions that the decision to move Flint off of Detroit water, and instead build a pipeline from Lake Huron, was likely made in part because Snyder and the Republicans wanted to bring water west from Lake Huron in order to service fracking operations along that route…" The KWA pipeline was going to built whether or not Flint signed on. Flint City Council already approved starting (founding member after all) and votes to switch to the KWA for Water just before the announcement in 2011 of the new financial emergency and again under the EM in March 2013. Synder also indicated to ABC12 News that he would be hands off on the water issue as the local residents would have to live with it long term that EMs in Detroit and Flint were to include the local government in the decision making process. Spshu ( talk) 15:29, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
There are several inaccurate attack pieces by the state media that have disregarded the facts plus given that it is in the response section, so that make it difficult to remove. Resignations that may have to do with the election of a new mayor were added as if they were caused by the crisis, which I have fixed. There is nothing regarding earlier bacterial and TTM in the water, which were the original issues which were resolved by adding more chlorine, which caused the stripping the pipes to bring in the lead. Nor any about the lack of citizens with water issue cooperation when requesting to test at their homes to allow them to pin point localized issues. Nothing on early Mayor abusing the Water and Sewer Fund to spend on General Fund expenses instead of updating the water lines that caused his recall and the first Financial emergency in the city. There is also the fact that the city's pipeline records are on index cards, which make it hard to select a proper water test site. Also, this was a factor in the Flint Mayoral election. Spshu ( talk) 17:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "proportion of infants and children with above-average levels of lead in their blood had nearly doubled" doesn't add much understanding to the subject. First, for a symmetric population distribution, 50% would be above average to begin with, so doubling that would imply a huge shift. Of course, this is probably a situation in which the median is below the average. Second, the statement implies that the average lead level is somehow a health standard. The average, we would hope, is way below the level of concern. 24.23.243.160 ( talk) 17:43, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
... to all the editors that contributed to this article. It is shaping up nicely and it is very informative. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The section entitled "Future" needs more than just one sentence saying they plan on joining the KWA at some point. In the more immediate future, what are the plans to mitigate the problem with the damaged pipes? Even if KWA had its pipeline tomorrow, the pipes have problems that need to be reversed. What is being considered? Hermanoere ( talk) 16:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't have time to incorporate some of the info in this article at the moment, but I wanted to flag this very well-written long-form piece:
Anyone is welcome to take a crack at making the appropriate additions. Neutrality talk 19:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
—about the section Celebrity and corporate donations. Starting to become an unwieldy list that may fall foul of WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. An encyclopedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." It may be de rigeur for celeb PR at the moment, but the simple question is, is it encyclopedic? Thoughts, ladies and gents? Keri ( talk) 10:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if this violates any wikipedia rules, but it just seems out of place.
"Had the agreement between Flint and DWSD not been cancelled and Flint continued to receive DWSD water during the construction of KWA, the following events would not have happened as Flint river water would not have been the primary interim water source." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:6000:628:9D94:B135:87E7:5454 ( talk) 03:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been reading up on a few sources that state that the water pollution problem is not limited to Flint, but is also occurring in a number of cities across Michigan as well. 1 2 3 I don't want to bring up a page move discussion just yet, as I don't believe there would be a consensus for such a move, but would it be possible to rewrite the article so that the focus isn't solely on Flint? Philip Terry Graham 20:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Forgive me for not simply adding this to the article, but I've not yet managed to assimilate or understand these reports. [1] [2] [3] [4]
Here are some possibly useful links on the testing [5] [6]
Tarrintoo ( talk) 07:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
The current wording makes it seem that this has to do with the current crisis when it is a separate issue. the current wording is: "Emails obtained by Progress Michigan indicate that Michigan state officials were trucking in bottled water to some of their own employees stationed in Flint as early as January 2015, long before telling residents of the contamination.[4]" As noted by ABC news and other outlets this is NOT lead, ad unrelated to the current containments. It is based on certain buildings in which the state was the landlord and therefore responsible for a landlord, failing on other water quality issues. At the very least the current wording has to reflecting Progress Michigan claims as contested: "Caleb Buhs, a spokesman for the agency that manages state buildings, says the water coolers began in January 2015 after Flint had flunked some drinking water standards apart from the lead contamination that has caused the current crisis. He says the water coolers still are supplied to a state building in Flint. Employees can also use the drinking fountains. Buhs says it was a decision "we made as the building owner" http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-pistons-owner-offers-10m-resolve-flint-woes-36570021 73.132.139.167 ( talk) 01:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Please review this article, which may be a useful counterpoint to the somewhat biased tenor of this Wiki. The article references a memo in which DWSD offers to dramatically reduce their sell prices to Flint. It is not at all uncommon in negotiations for a party to make major capitulations, even last minute. If DWSD did make this offer, it would completely alter the cost savings/ business case justifications upon which the critical decisions were being made to a) make a switch from DWSD at all, b) to resurrect the Karegnondi Water Authority pipeline and c) to float municipal bonds to fund the KWA. When DWSD made this price reduction offer, all actions should have been stopped until the business cases/ cost justification financial models were re-run. So the unanswered question is, "Did they?" a: [1] Shazbat01 ( talk) 21:04, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Th article states: "In January 2015, a public meeting was held, where citizens complained about the "bad water." This is misleading, since in fact the residents first complained about the water's taste, smell and appearance from the get go. Compare The Wsshington Post "APRIL 2014: In an effort to save money, Flint begins drawing its water from the Flint River instead of relying on water from Detroit. The move is considered temporary while the city waits to connect to a new regional water system. Residents immediately complain about the smell, taste and appearance of the water. They also raise health concerns, reporting rashes, hair loss and other problems." Nothing of this is mentioned in the article, nor the entire series of missteps and misrepresenations that ensued during the remainder of 2014. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-timeline-of-the-water-crisis-in-flint-michigan/2016/01/16/cc4d32a2-bc63-11e5-85cd-5ad59bc19432_story.html Orthotox ( talk) 21:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Why did Flint start using Detroit water in the first place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.21.53 ( talk) 02:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
←Resurrect the KWA? It was never defunct and was just recently started. Secondly, MarkMaynard.com clearly states it is a blog not a news outlet, so what he says is not considered a reliable source of information for WP. And just to be complete in absolutely destroying the blog post of Maynard's... The first Markmaynard.com post is also based on an interview with Flint attorney Alec Gibbs, who is suing over retirees' health insurance changes (consolidating down to a few instead of 30 different programs). The KWA is spear headed by DEMOCRATIC Genesee County Drain Commissioner Jeff Wright, who is the CEO of the KWA, not any Republican state led operation. And it was built due to near or double digit percentage increases in Detroit Water cost and general disregard and expectation that Flint should take as much cost on to subsidize Detroit Water (this may have triggered the Detroit water termination notices as Detroit had to actual bill their core territory residents for the full cost). This total demolished this key statement: "Toward the end of our interview, Gibbs mentions that the decision to move Flint off of Detroit water, and instead build a pipeline from Lake Huron, was likely made in part because Snyder and the Republicans wanted to bring water west from Lake Huron in order to service fracking operations along that route…" The KWA pipeline was going to built whether or not Flint signed on. Flint City Council already approved starting (founding member after all) and votes to switch to the KWA for Water just before the announcement in 2011 of the new financial emergency and again under the EM in March 2013. Synder also indicated to ABC12 News that he would be hands off on the water issue as the local residents would have to live with it long term that EMs in Detroit and Flint were to include the local government in the decision making process. Spshu ( talk) 15:29, 9 February 2016 (UTC)