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Flight deck is another name for cockpit. I think we need a disambiguation page. Acdx 13:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
American carriers had an amoured main ( hangar ) deck, while the Brits had an amoured flight deck but also amoured the sides of the hangar as well ( mainly against shell fire). The British lifts were never amoured as the weight meant they would not have any load at all.This was a weak point as on one occasion in the Med, a bomb did explode inside the hangar after penetrating the lift 222.153.244.134 03:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Sockeye
Regarding the negative tone about British carriers, the higher hangar hieght of US Ships was since they would carry spare planes hung from the roof. No planes needing 20ft till after the war. Dont forget the Ark Royal and early Illustrious had two hangar decks as British doctrine was to have a clear flight deck. If it wasnt for the indroduction of the proximity fuse there would have been quite a few more wrecked US carriers during the last year of the Pacific war 222.153.244.134 04:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Sockeye
The section does dwell a bit too much on the armor question, but there are British historians who agree with what the text states in regards to the issue, as cited in the article. If you can find a verifiable source with an opposing view, then by all means cite it in the text. As to proximity fuses, I assume you mean AA guns. - BillCJ 04:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The Essex Class American carriers were built with wooden flight decks. From above thr British Deck armor was instrumental in less damages from kamikazes. However in the South Pacific, I believe the British could cook their meals on the deck. Most Essex Class American carriers as the got the post war conversion and an angled deck had the complete flight deck replaced at one time with metal, necessary for the heavier aircraft. The USS Lexington did not get the deck replaced alll at once, was patch work. I believe there was an early to mid 1980's story of the nosewheel of an A-6 Intruder going throught tht flight deck. Modern Super-carriers have metal strenghtened flight decks not armored. The main deck for strength is still the hangere deck. In the hanger deck is 2 spots for 3 sections there are flex joints allowing each section independant movement. Wfoj2 18:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I edited the image caption because the image is incorrect. I actually did want to remove it, but thought that a little too bold. Friedman discusses the differences between USN and RN carriers and makes it very clear that it was USN doctrine and their permanent deck park that was the major factor in USN carriers having a much larger aircraft capacity. Roberts and Watton, Anatomy of the ship - Victorious, p9 show that RN armoured carriers could and did carry spare aircraft in their hanger overheads, and Victorious had 23ft of clear height between the deck support beams. Damwiki1 ( talk) 08:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has included the statement: "The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck carrier; however the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers." Solicitr has attempted to remove the latter part this statement, and his latest edit attempt includes the statement: "Reference doesn't matter if the statement is horse manure". Perhaps Solicitr can explain more fully why he feels compelled to edit the article and then justify his statement with such unscholarly remarks? Can he provide sources which contradict the referenced statement. As it is now, his justification makes his edits tantamount to vandalism. Damwiki1 ( talk)
I showed above, using a fully sourced argument that RN aircraft carriers, using deck parks greatly reduced the disparity in aircraft numbers between their USN counterparts, and that the Implacable sub-class then carried nearly the same number of aircraft per ton as USN Essex class, when both were tasked with the same mission, in 1945. Damwiki1 ( talk) 18:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
sourced from H.T. Lenton, British and Empire warships of World War II; The Malta class were designed to carry armour;
Emoscopes Talk 19:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
To illustrate difficulty/danger of missed approach on straight flight decks and the evolution of the angled flight deck. Anynobody 05:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I was thinking about parking some planes on the Centaur and Nimitz to further illustrate the parking advantage, and tweak the color a tad on the Yorktown so the planes are easier to see. Does this sound like a good idea? Anynobody 07:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll work on the suggestions you made (the take off or landing only nature of the axial deck carrier, and the deck barrier). Hopefully I can have something in the next couple of days. The replacements I've uploaded look a bit better than the originals. I also fixed the scaling of the giant Vampire on Centaur.
P.S. Feel free to modify the caption as you see fit. Anynobody 22:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm still trying to figure out a good way to illustrate the deck barrier, but as I type this an idea just occurred to me so I'll try to work it in too. The modern angled deck now shows simultaneous launch/recovery. Anynobody 23:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems rather obvious to me that the parked aircraft should be rotating in the opposite direction than shown on impact. The approaching craft will take the inward pointing wings with it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.113.125 ( talk) 13:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
See www.dcfp.navy.mil - U.S.S. PRINCETON (CVL-23), BOMB DAMAGE - Battle for Leyte Gulf, October 24, 1944 (LOST IN ACTION) for further info (or the link in the section head). Anynobody 10:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Since this article is about the flight deck, I have moved this subsection to the aircraft carrier article. Anynobody 19:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Realistically making a deck that could absorb all the shock of a jet aircraft hitting it at 100-150 knots without causing damage to the jet sounds like wishful thinking at best. They say a carrier landing (with landing gear) is more of a controlled crash than a landing. Without gear it'd just be crashing. Even if it was possible, handling a plane without landing gear sounds like a pain: One would need a tractor/crane and separate cradle for each aircraft landing. Anynobody 10:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
That's my point, is there some proof that it was tried? How did they plan on handling aircraft like the E-2, S-2, or A-3? Anynobody 21:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody 21:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)One of the more unusual ideas was to save weight and cut down landing accidents by having undercarriage-less aircraft. They would be launched by a special catapult and would land on a flexible rubber deck. Trials were even carried out with a mock deck at Farnborough, using Sea Vampire aircraft. After initial setbacks the concept proved practical, but even so, the Admiralty abandoned the idea.
I have added some additional info on the development of the angle deck. All additions and changes have been check and referenced Jacob805 ( talk) 12:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a reason this section doesn't mention the angled deck on the american Flight Deck Cruisers from the 30's? That article seems pretty clear, and predating the British study by at least a decade seems like it would be notable.-- 73.158.89.182 ( talk) 06:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
For an article about carrier's flight deck, there is VERY little explanation of the CATOBAR system, which is being used by most of the carriers. Comparisons between Sky-Jump, and Catapults would be helpful. Or at the very least, link to the catapult system's page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.21.176 ( talk) 05:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Get real, Damwiki- this really is nationalist special pleading. You're seriously equating Swordfish to Corsairs and Avengers? Your assertion that the use of deck park was the only significant difference US and UK carrier capacity is getting very, very stale. Solicitr ( talk) 23:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
When aircraft carriers supplanted battleships as the primary fleet capital ship, there were two schools of thought on the question of armor protection being included into the flight deck. The USN initially favoured unarmoured flight decks because they maximized aircraft carrier hangar and flight deck size, which in turn maximized aircraft capacity in the hangar, and on the flight deck, in the form of a permanent "deck park" for a large proportion of the aircraft carried.[2][3] In 1936 the Royal Navy developed the armored flight deck aircraft carrier which also enclosed the hangar sides and ends with armor. The addition of armor to the flight deck offered aircraft below some protection against aerial bombs while the armoured hangar sides and ends helped to minimize damage and casualties from explosions or fires within or outside the hangar.[4] The addition of armour to the hangar forced a reduction in top-weight, so the hangar height was reduced, and this restricted the types of aircraft that these ships could carry, although the Royal Navy's armored carriers did carry spare aircraft in the hangar overheads.[5] The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck aircraft carrier. Additionally, Royal Navy aircraft carriers did not use a permanent deck park until approximately 1943; before then the aircraft capacity of RN aircraft carriers was limited to their hangar capacity. The 23,000 ton British Illustrious-class had a hangar capacity for 36 Swordfish sized aircraft and a single 458 ft x 62 ft x 16 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.8m) hangar, but carried up to 57 [6] aircraft with a permanent deck park while the 23,400 ton Implacable class featured increased hangar capacity with a 458 ft x 62 ft x 14 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.3m) upper hangar and the addition of a 208 ft by 62 ft by 14 ft (63m x 19m x 4.3m) lower hangar, forward of the after elevator, which had a total capacity of 52 Swordfish sized aircraft or a mix of 48 late war aircraft in the hangar plus 24 aircraft in a permanent deck park[7], but carried up to 81 aircraft with a deck park.[8] The 27,500 ton USN Essex class had a 654 ft x 70 ft x 17.5 ft (198m x 21m x 5.3m) hangar that was designed to handle a mix of 72 prewar USN aircraft.[9] but carried up to 104 late war aircraft using both the hangar and a permanent deck park.[10][11] The experience of World War II caused the USN to change their design policy in favor of armored flight decks: "The main armor carried on Enterprise is the heavy armored flight deck. This was to prove a significant factor in the catastrophic fire and explosions that occurred on Enterprise's flight deck in 1969. The US Navy learned its lesson the hard way during World War II when all its carriers had only armored hangar decks. All attack carriers built since the Midway class have had armored flight decks." [12]
Damwiki1 ( talk) 19:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The Russian Version of this article has a section on earlier designs originally implemented, among others, on Akagi, Kaga, Glorious, Courageous and Essex. It has, however, no sources and a non-free image to go on. Transfer or purge? - 95.165.36.135 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
So, I see Damwiki is still ring-fencing his attempt to convety the impression the RN paid no price for its armored decks. Solicitr ( talk) 20:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
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I'm really not sure why an admin keeps reverting my restoration of American English and threatening me with 3RR when there's a tag at the top of this page that clearly says "This article is written in American English (labor, traveled, color), and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus."!!!!! This tag has been here since January 2014, and no one has challenged it to this point. Granted, the article is inconsistent in using American English, but that can be fixed. But I'm not in the wrong here to revert improper changes of "armor" to "armour". Per MOS:TIES: "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. Per MOS:TIES: With few exceptions (e.g., when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change." I'm not sure why I'm the one that has to prove my case first. - - BilCat ( talk) 15:43, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Clearly the article first used United Kingdom English before someone with their own bias cared enough about propagating a style they found familiar that they converted the article to that style. That was presumptuous. But now the article has spent years using United Kingdom English and a decade gradually transitioning to United States English, word by word. As of BilCat's edit, that transition is finally complete and the article's style is internally consistent once more. Student7's statements were inaccurate and their decision to transform the article was out of line, but the information in the article is no less accessible. The people who care most about the information in the article maintain it, and that inevitably influences which dialect/s dominate prominence. To represent your own stylistic preference (more), get (more) involved in creating and maintaining the content! 60.230.1.22 ( talk) 12:40, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
“ (aircraft now launched from the bow and re-embarked on the angle, leaving a large open area amidships for arming and fueling)”
I have read this sentence several times and cannot understand it. Please clarify for non-technical reader. Launched… and then re-embarked? 124.150.79.224 ( talk) 06:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Flight deck is another name for cockpit. I think we need a disambiguation page. Acdx 13:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
American carriers had an amoured main ( hangar ) deck, while the Brits had an amoured flight deck but also amoured the sides of the hangar as well ( mainly against shell fire). The British lifts were never amoured as the weight meant they would not have any load at all.This was a weak point as on one occasion in the Med, a bomb did explode inside the hangar after penetrating the lift 222.153.244.134 03:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Sockeye
Regarding the negative tone about British carriers, the higher hangar hieght of US Ships was since they would carry spare planes hung from the roof. No planes needing 20ft till after the war. Dont forget the Ark Royal and early Illustrious had two hangar decks as British doctrine was to have a clear flight deck. If it wasnt for the indroduction of the proximity fuse there would have been quite a few more wrecked US carriers during the last year of the Pacific war 222.153.244.134 04:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Sockeye
The section does dwell a bit too much on the armor question, but there are British historians who agree with what the text states in regards to the issue, as cited in the article. If you can find a verifiable source with an opposing view, then by all means cite it in the text. As to proximity fuses, I assume you mean AA guns. - BillCJ 04:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The Essex Class American carriers were built with wooden flight decks. From above thr British Deck armor was instrumental in less damages from kamikazes. However in the South Pacific, I believe the British could cook their meals on the deck. Most Essex Class American carriers as the got the post war conversion and an angled deck had the complete flight deck replaced at one time with metal, necessary for the heavier aircraft. The USS Lexington did not get the deck replaced alll at once, was patch work. I believe there was an early to mid 1980's story of the nosewheel of an A-6 Intruder going throught tht flight deck. Modern Super-carriers have metal strenghtened flight decks not armored. The main deck for strength is still the hangere deck. In the hanger deck is 2 spots for 3 sections there are flex joints allowing each section independant movement. Wfoj2 18:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I edited the image caption because the image is incorrect. I actually did want to remove it, but thought that a little too bold. Friedman discusses the differences between USN and RN carriers and makes it very clear that it was USN doctrine and their permanent deck park that was the major factor in USN carriers having a much larger aircraft capacity. Roberts and Watton, Anatomy of the ship - Victorious, p9 show that RN armoured carriers could and did carry spare aircraft in their hanger overheads, and Victorious had 23ft of clear height between the deck support beams. Damwiki1 ( talk) 08:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has included the statement: "The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck carrier; however the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers." Solicitr has attempted to remove the latter part this statement, and his latest edit attempt includes the statement: "Reference doesn't matter if the statement is horse manure". Perhaps Solicitr can explain more fully why he feels compelled to edit the article and then justify his statement with such unscholarly remarks? Can he provide sources which contradict the referenced statement. As it is now, his justification makes his edits tantamount to vandalism. Damwiki1 ( talk)
I showed above, using a fully sourced argument that RN aircraft carriers, using deck parks greatly reduced the disparity in aircraft numbers between their USN counterparts, and that the Implacable sub-class then carried nearly the same number of aircraft per ton as USN Essex class, when both were tasked with the same mission, in 1945. Damwiki1 ( talk) 18:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
sourced from H.T. Lenton, British and Empire warships of World War II; The Malta class were designed to carry armour;
Emoscopes Talk 19:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
To illustrate difficulty/danger of missed approach on straight flight decks and the evolution of the angled flight deck. Anynobody 05:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I was thinking about parking some planes on the Centaur and Nimitz to further illustrate the parking advantage, and tweak the color a tad on the Yorktown so the planes are easier to see. Does this sound like a good idea? Anynobody 07:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll work on the suggestions you made (the take off or landing only nature of the axial deck carrier, and the deck barrier). Hopefully I can have something in the next couple of days. The replacements I've uploaded look a bit better than the originals. I also fixed the scaling of the giant Vampire on Centaur.
P.S. Feel free to modify the caption as you see fit. Anynobody 22:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm still trying to figure out a good way to illustrate the deck barrier, but as I type this an idea just occurred to me so I'll try to work it in too. The modern angled deck now shows simultaneous launch/recovery. Anynobody 23:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems rather obvious to me that the parked aircraft should be rotating in the opposite direction than shown on impact. The approaching craft will take the inward pointing wings with it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.113.125 ( talk) 13:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
See www.dcfp.navy.mil - U.S.S. PRINCETON (CVL-23), BOMB DAMAGE - Battle for Leyte Gulf, October 24, 1944 (LOST IN ACTION) for further info (or the link in the section head). Anynobody 10:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Since this article is about the flight deck, I have moved this subsection to the aircraft carrier article. Anynobody 19:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Realistically making a deck that could absorb all the shock of a jet aircraft hitting it at 100-150 knots without causing damage to the jet sounds like wishful thinking at best. They say a carrier landing (with landing gear) is more of a controlled crash than a landing. Without gear it'd just be crashing. Even if it was possible, handling a plane without landing gear sounds like a pain: One would need a tractor/crane and separate cradle for each aircraft landing. Anynobody 10:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
That's my point, is there some proof that it was tried? How did they plan on handling aircraft like the E-2, S-2, or A-3? Anynobody 21:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody 21:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)One of the more unusual ideas was to save weight and cut down landing accidents by having undercarriage-less aircraft. They would be launched by a special catapult and would land on a flexible rubber deck. Trials were even carried out with a mock deck at Farnborough, using Sea Vampire aircraft. After initial setbacks the concept proved practical, but even so, the Admiralty abandoned the idea.
I have added some additional info on the development of the angle deck. All additions and changes have been check and referenced Jacob805 ( talk) 12:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a reason this section doesn't mention the angled deck on the american Flight Deck Cruisers from the 30's? That article seems pretty clear, and predating the British study by at least a decade seems like it would be notable.-- 73.158.89.182 ( talk) 06:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
For an article about carrier's flight deck, there is VERY little explanation of the CATOBAR system, which is being used by most of the carriers. Comparisons between Sky-Jump, and Catapults would be helpful. Or at the very least, link to the catapult system's page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.21.176 ( talk) 05:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Get real, Damwiki- this really is nationalist special pleading. You're seriously equating Swordfish to Corsairs and Avengers? Your assertion that the use of deck park was the only significant difference US and UK carrier capacity is getting very, very stale. Solicitr ( talk) 23:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
When aircraft carriers supplanted battleships as the primary fleet capital ship, there were two schools of thought on the question of armor protection being included into the flight deck. The USN initially favoured unarmoured flight decks because they maximized aircraft carrier hangar and flight deck size, which in turn maximized aircraft capacity in the hangar, and on the flight deck, in the form of a permanent "deck park" for a large proportion of the aircraft carried.[2][3] In 1936 the Royal Navy developed the armored flight deck aircraft carrier which also enclosed the hangar sides and ends with armor. The addition of armor to the flight deck offered aircraft below some protection against aerial bombs while the armoured hangar sides and ends helped to minimize damage and casualties from explosions or fires within or outside the hangar.[4] The addition of armour to the hangar forced a reduction in top-weight, so the hangar height was reduced, and this restricted the types of aircraft that these ships could carry, although the Royal Navy's armored carriers did carry spare aircraft in the hangar overheads.[5] The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck aircraft carrier. Additionally, Royal Navy aircraft carriers did not use a permanent deck park until approximately 1943; before then the aircraft capacity of RN aircraft carriers was limited to their hangar capacity. The 23,000 ton British Illustrious-class had a hangar capacity for 36 Swordfish sized aircraft and a single 458 ft x 62 ft x 16 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.8m) hangar, but carried up to 57 [6] aircraft with a permanent deck park while the 23,400 ton Implacable class featured increased hangar capacity with a 458 ft x 62 ft x 14 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.3m) upper hangar and the addition of a 208 ft by 62 ft by 14 ft (63m x 19m x 4.3m) lower hangar, forward of the after elevator, which had a total capacity of 52 Swordfish sized aircraft or a mix of 48 late war aircraft in the hangar plus 24 aircraft in a permanent deck park[7], but carried up to 81 aircraft with a deck park.[8] The 27,500 ton USN Essex class had a 654 ft x 70 ft x 17.5 ft (198m x 21m x 5.3m) hangar that was designed to handle a mix of 72 prewar USN aircraft.[9] but carried up to 104 late war aircraft using both the hangar and a permanent deck park.[10][11] The experience of World War II caused the USN to change their design policy in favor of armored flight decks: "The main armor carried on Enterprise is the heavy armored flight deck. This was to prove a significant factor in the catastrophic fire and explosions that occurred on Enterprise's flight deck in 1969. The US Navy learned its lesson the hard way during World War II when all its carriers had only armored hangar decks. All attack carriers built since the Midway class have had armored flight decks." [12]
Damwiki1 ( talk) 19:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The Russian Version of this article has a section on earlier designs originally implemented, among others, on Akagi, Kaga, Glorious, Courageous and Essex. It has, however, no sources and a non-free image to go on. Transfer or purge? - 95.165.36.135 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
So, I see Damwiki is still ring-fencing his attempt to convety the impression the RN paid no price for its armored decks. Solicitr ( talk) 20:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
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I'm really not sure why an admin keeps reverting my restoration of American English and threatening me with 3RR when there's a tag at the top of this page that clearly says "This article is written in American English (labor, traveled, color), and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus."!!!!! This tag has been here since January 2014, and no one has challenged it to this point. Granted, the article is inconsistent in using American English, but that can be fixed. But I'm not in the wrong here to revert improper changes of "armor" to "armour". Per MOS:TIES: "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. Per MOS:TIES: With few exceptions (e.g., when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change." I'm not sure why I'm the one that has to prove my case first. - - BilCat ( talk) 15:43, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Clearly the article first used United Kingdom English before someone with their own bias cared enough about propagating a style they found familiar that they converted the article to that style. That was presumptuous. But now the article has spent years using United Kingdom English and a decade gradually transitioning to United States English, word by word. As of BilCat's edit, that transition is finally complete and the article's style is internally consistent once more. Student7's statements were inaccurate and their decision to transform the article was out of line, but the information in the article is no less accessible. The people who care most about the information in the article maintain it, and that inevitably influences which dialect/s dominate prominence. To represent your own stylistic preference (more), get (more) involved in creating and maintaining the content! 60.230.1.22 ( talk) 12:40, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
“ (aircraft now launched from the bow and re-embarked on the angle, leaving a large open area amidships for arming and fueling)”
I have read this sentence several times and cannot understand it. Please clarify for non-technical reader. Launched… and then re-embarked? 124.150.79.224 ( talk) 06:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)