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Previous discussion doesn't seem to have gone anywhere towards solving this rather major problem with this important article - the title doesn't match the scope. The title implies we're talking specifically about expulsions, while we actually talk about a whole set of population movements, with perhaps a stronger focus on those which were expulsions, but by no means restricted to those. Can we finally decide what we're going to do - change the title, change the scope (and presumably create a new "parent" article to hold the information that pertains to the movements as a whole), or perhaps rewrite the article to explain to bewildered readers why evacuations and flight are being put under the heading "expulsions". Without descending into more pointless political debating, can we decide what we're going to do about this?-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
"Flight and Expulsion During and after WWII" or a range of dates like "(1944-1950) is a better description for the title of this article.
•It reflects the current historiography in Germany and Poland.
•It corrects the misconception in the English speaking world that these events occurred only after the war.
•There is currently no clear consensus on the number of deaths, the cause of these deaths and the exact timeframe that they occurred. These issues remain unresolved pending new research.
•We need to maintain a NPOV and point out and explain that these events are referred to as “expulsions” in Germany and “deportations” in Poland.
•Above all we should avoid the use of sources that exploit these events for political ends. Since the topic is controversial and disputed, we need to maintain a NPOV and should rely on scholarly and official sources that present the arguments in Poland as well as Germany.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Many countries participated - Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union. I have added the book "Forced Migrations" which includes authors of other nationalities than Germany and Poland. Differences between German authors are frequently sharper than betwen mainstream Polish and German ones. "Veropferung der Taeter" is a German left idea. Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, I see this has not really been settled. I think the "exodus" article must be considered a grandparent rather than a parent - it covers a much wider time-frame and range of events than this article. Anyway, no-one's come up with any other plan for bringing title into line with scope, so what do we now think of the proposed rename to either Flight and expulsion of Germans during and after World War II or Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)?-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The 7 million is an obvious error, which documents the method of writing the article. Xx236 ( talk) 14:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The figure of 7 million is correct, it is for German territories in the 1937 borders only.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The figure isn't correct, it includes people "legally" expelled, ie. both those evacuated and deported after the war. Kamusella is wrong because he says that the 7 million were expelled after the war. Xx236 ( talk) 11:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
"Overy cites approximate totals of those evacuated, migrated, or expelled between 1944 and 1950" - the name of the section is "Expulsions following Nazi Germany's defeat" and the name of the article "Expulsion of Germans after World War II". Either the name of the article should be "Flight and deportation of Germans" or the numbers should be removed. Xx236 ( talk) 14:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
If something is called "Flight and Expulsion" why to change the name to "Expulsion"? Xx236 ( talk) 15:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Gawryszewski, Andrzej. Ludność Polski w XX wieku.Warszawa : Instytut Geografii i Przestrzennego Zagospodarowania im. Stanisława Leszczyckiego PAN, 2005
You should be able to find it in a Polish library-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The whole text is available http://www.igipz.pan.pl/wydaw/Monografie_5/ and I have quoted it last week, see above. Xx236 ( talk) 15:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
15 million Germans were forced to flee or were expelled, 3 million from the Czech Republik and the rest mainly from Poland. 3 million Germans died in the course of this expulsion. These numbers have never been disputed by historians.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 20:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Prior to the war the Sudetenland had a German speaking majority, please see this Wikipedia map. [1] At the 1938 Munich confrence Germany was awarded the Sudetenland because of this ethnic dominance, this was also true in the case of Hungary which took part of Slovakia and Poland which took the Zaolzie.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Not all German speaking people were Nazi, eager to join the Reich... Xx236 ( talk) 15:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The source of the map is not clear to me. Also I cannot access that page on Google book. Dr. Loosmark 15:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Re above from Xx236 ("Not all German speaking people were Nazi, eager to join the Reich"): Why the over-generalization? You know enough of German history to know that numerous Germans in Sudetenland wanted the Sudetenland to join either Austria or Germany, and for many, such sentiments extended back prior to the rise of Nazism. As Roman Catholics, many German Sudetenlanders were not partial to the Nazis. Xx236, I doubt that you are Roman Catholic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.247.204 ( talk) 07:58, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
The Sudeten Germans were promised homerule by the American President Wilson after World war 1, but the newly-founded Czechoslovakia wanted a homogenious state. The Czech majority did not grant the Germans the same rights, therefore the Sudeten Germans turned to Germany. Mind you, both Czechs and Germans had been living together as neighbours - as part of the Holy Roman Empire and as part of the Austrian Empire for about 800 years.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 19:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The lead used to contain the following statement, would it be fair to say that some have described the events as genocide? - Schrandit ( talk) 10:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC) Would it be fair to include in the lead informations about the historical context, ie. the Holocaust and German crimes in occupied countries which caused common hatred toward the occupants? Xx236 ( talk) 11:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe the expulsion of 15 million Germans, whereby 3 million died, can`t be called genocide to distinquish it from the Holocaust, but it certainly was the biggest ethnic cleansing in European history.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 19:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It was a part of Soviet policy in Eastern and Central Europe. It wasn't "ethnic" only, it's your POV. It was also a political and economical process. Persecutions of Nazis and capitalists are "Persecutions of Nazis and capitalists" in the GDR and "ethnic cleansing" in Poland. Bomnbing civilians is "bombing civilians" if the bombs are US or UK and "ethnic cleansing" if the bombs are Soviet. Raping women is "Raping women" in GDR but "ethnic cleansing" in Poland. The "Germans" were of many ethnicities including Slavic Silesians. "3 million died" during the war mainly, but some poeple believe that killing Slavs is O.K. but being killed by the Slavs is "Expulsion". More than 15 million run away and were evacuated in Soviet Union, but it's unimportant for some here. Germans planned to expell more than 15 million of Slavs, but they weren't allowed to, so it doesn't count - the Germans are the main victims of WWII, sorry - of European history. Xx236 ( talk) 12:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The article starts with this false statement. There were Slavs, eg. Upper Silesians and Czechs, among the refugees. Xx236 ( talk) 12:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Poland was occupied by the Soviets and any important decision was dictated from outside of the nation. Hungarians were Nazi allies, so the dictate was open and Poles were "Allies" so the dictate was hidden. But still many people claim that good Allies won bad Axis (and liberated Poland). Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The statement should be removed from the lede, because it's very controversial, it ignores the historical context, ignores tragedies of nations smaller than "Germans". Am I allowed to remove the statement from the lede? Xx236 ( talk) 06:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Eva Hahn "konečně uznání obětního beránka moderních evropských dějin, které pro sebe reklamovali již nacisté" (the final recognition of the (German) scapegoat of modern European history, demanded already by the Nazis) http://www.euportal.cz/Articles/727-sudetsti-nemci-maji-novou-strategii.aspx. Xx236 ( talk) 11:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Eva Hahn is anything else but an objective historian. She is absolutely biased, even hateful against Germans. Alfred Maurice de Zayas, American, renowned member of the UNO, is an expert for the expulsion of the Germans.-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 22:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Germans murdered millions, am I allowed to write in any WWII article that German crimes were the biggest in history? Xx236 ( talk) 10:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "Most radical version of the Nazi Generalplan Ost envisaged a 1000 km eastward shift of the German frotier, relocating a population of 31 mln (mainly Poles)into Siberia, as well as subsequent exterminating 5 mln people" History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949- So the "expulsion" of "Germans" was the biggest only beacause Germans weren't allowed to implement their project. Such information should be included into the article, because we lack the real context. Xx236 ( talk) 12:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "BdV„s representatives position the German nation as a victim of II World War; by placing it next to the nations mutilated by the German Nazi regime, they try to reshape the „community of victims”; they put the the postwar expulsions of Germans on equal footing with the Nazi drive for creating the “new living space” for Germans. History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949 Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "The interested public is shown the historical panorama that presents German collective victims together with the victims of Jewish genocide of the Second World War, and the Armenian genocide of World War I." - Ingo Haar, quoted in "History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949". Why this Wikipedia accepts the BdV POV? 13:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Xx236 ( talk)
Contemporary Soviet military affairs: the legacy of World War II, Page 4, Jonathan R. Adelman,Cristann Lea Gibson "Another 17 to 25 million people fled eastwards in the path of the German advance in 1941 and 1942" - so one German refugee seems to be more important than 1.5 till 2 non-German ones. I see this idea as racistic. 13:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Xx236 ( talk)
It's a manipulation. 2 million include victims of the war. WWII - ever heard? Xx236 ( talk) 09:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The best researched crimes were the ones committed on Sudetengermans in Czechoslovakia - the recent numbers are many times lower than the ones propagated by Germany since the war. Xx236 ( talk) 12:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is not about the "Expulsion of Germans after World War II" only. The wrong title represents BdV propaganda PoV and should be changed. Xx236 ( talk) 11:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the reference to statements by Erika Steinbach from the article. The reason for this is as follows:
1. According to the German historian Ingo Haar, Steinbach is "Relying on a work by an author associated with the extreme far-right, Heinz Nawratil". The original version of the text in the article attributed where Steinbach's opinion came from.
2. But the attribution to Nawratil was removed, for unclear reasons, by Herkus [2]. Then all that remained was Steinbach's opinion but not its source.
3. On the related BLP discussions it was noted that the fact that the president of the Federation of Expellees is relying on works by extremist authors was itself notable. This is my view as well and I think it should be important to be precise about the sources from which Erika Steinbach gets her information from - since she is a very prominent persona in this subject area, this is most definitely encyclopedic (and well sourced) information.
4. However, since some editors object to Nawratil's name being included at all, it makes sense that if you remove him, you should remove claims by Steinbach as well. Hopefully this can be a satisfactory compromise to everyone.
Also
5. The entire problem would be easily solved by having a section on "Use of expulsion for political reasons" in the article where this kind of thing can be explored. I know, I know, the article's "too long" already (never mind that there's like 10 versions of it on Wikipedia) but somehow no one seems to have the gumption to shorten it. radek ( talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
"Oh the whole "expulsion movement" has coverage in numerous works and publications, this article focuses only on its statements and the initial transfer of the population, while ignoring almost half of century of developments that happened afterwards. See for example: After the Expulsion: West Germany and Eastern Europe 1945-1990 [http://www.amazon.com/After-Expulsion-Germany-Eastern-1945-1990/dp/0199259895] The movements were very influential in German politics and destructive in West German relations with other countries. For instance some of them supported Munich Agreement enforced by Hitler on international community as valid, even after defeat of Nazi Germany. The widespread nationalism and patricipation of former Nazis was also problematic to external relations.This should be covered as we now lack the history that happened aftwerwads and which is connected. One interesting fact, which determined the attitude and which was not exposed in West Germany was the fact that the supposed victims often represented former strongholds of Nazi movements from before the war. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Some books are quoted twice, some once, some aren't. What is the logic? Xx236 ( talk) 09:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Would our radical German editors take part in internal German discussions de:Diskussion:Vertreibung rather than create problems here? Xx236 ( talk) 13:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC) The alleged "Expulsion of Germans" means in reality "Ausweisung und Flucht deutschsprachiger Bevölkerung aus Grenzräumen mit nichteinheitlicher Bevölkerungsgeschichte oder isolierten mehrheitlich deutschen Sprachgebieten". It's not the same. Xx236 ( talk) 13:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
From the
de:Vertreibung:Diskussion
"Bei einem Lemma „Vertreibung von Deutschen“ kriege ich nationale/ethnische/staatsbürgerliche Zahnschmerzen. Schließlich wollen wir hier doch keine NS-Klassifizierung übernehmen. Wer in diesem Zusammenhang ein "Deutscher" war und warum diese Einstufung, das ist ein Thema für sich, das in Einzelartikeln dargestellt werden sollte." Please discuss the subject with editors of German Wikipedia, when you refuse to accept any of my opinions.
Xx236 (
talk)
07:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
What is wrong with "Vertreibung der Deutschen"? Of course, other nationals were expelled, too. But the expulsion of the Germans was the biggest ethnic cleansing in European history. Euphemism does not make it better. Ashamed of being German? What about Beethoven, Goethe and all the others? -- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 21:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Radical is the ethnic cleansing of about 15 million people, but certainly not the mentioning of it. A perverse value system! -- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 21:46, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
What does the exact number of casualties matter? Everyone was one too much-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 22:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately your opinion wasn't popular among Germans till 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 07:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I am quite disappointed to see again some Wikipedia-users trying to silence about important historic facts.
My suggestions:
1.
The whole article is far too long and needs cleaning-up. At least half the text should be outsourced.
2. Also the title is not appropriate; according to most scientists dealing with the Vertreibung the expulsion of over 14 Million Germans with their families from their own houses and homeland was not just an expulsion, but an Ethnic Cleansing.
3.
The article contains a lot of redundant facts, while some very important facts like
genocide are completely swept under the carpet. At least 2.0 Million
German civilians perished long time after the war was over, most of them were either starved to death, tortured to death, raped or child-abused to death or otherwise deliberately murdered. The US-American Professor for International Law and former member of the
UN-Commission for Human Rights , Professor Dr.
Alfred de Zayas, defines this massmurder of German families as
genocideCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).</ref>. The
UNESCO Prize for Human Rights-laureate Professor Dr.
Felix Ermacora, also expert for International Law, reaches the same conclusion: "Die Vertreibung der deutschsprachigen Bevölkerung aus den osteuropäischen Staaten in den Jahren 1945/46 erfüllt den Tatbestand des Völkermordes.
[1]
The fate of all these millions of people are not dealt with in the article suffiently; a Genocide that has not been mentioned in an article of its own needs at least a section of its own. Furthermore i do not see anywhere in Wikipedia any headline referring to this Genocide of 2.0 Millions. More innocents perished in this genocide than in e.g. the Armenian Genocide, and yet this encyclopedia tries to hush it up. This is inacceptable.
Therefore, in view of an historic event of such dimensions, i call for creating a headline in this article that clearly refers to what it was: Genocide.
-- PeterBln ( talk) 17:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The full scope of the expulsion(s) of the Germans was neither "Ethnic Cleansing" nor Genocide according to the strict definitions of each of those concepts. Look up the definitions before you comment. The closest to Ethnic Cleansing came in Czechoslovakia, but because some exceptions were made even that doesn't fully qualify as Ethnic Cleansing, although an argument can be made that the ultimate effects yield de facto ethnic cleansing. The mass deportations in large areas of the eastern provinces of pre-war Germany doesn't qualify as ethnic cleansing based upon a technicality, namely that when the deportations occurred those lands were considered to be only under the "temporary administration" of Poland and the Soviet Union. This has all been talked about before in the archives. "Genocide" in theory could only be applied during the "Wild Expulsions", whereas the time therafter is claimed by some to be more in meeting with the "orderly and humane" specifics of the Potsdam Agreement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.247.204 ( talk) 09:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Could you please repeat that? The number of this Genocide as published by a member of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights are "ridiculously inflated numbers"?
This is a severe insult to the victims of this Genocide. You try to belittle and deny a Genocide. May i ask you please, to stop insulting the victims of this Genocide? You have not not presented any sources to back your claim. Where are your scientific sources?
Facts: The secretary of the Human Rights Committee and high-ranking former United Nations official Professor Dr. Alfred de Zayas puts the number of victims at over 2.0 million [2] [3].
I suggest you read the scientific sources by Prof. Dr.
Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, member of the
Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. It makes no sense if you try to discuss with scientists, when you do not have the appropriate scientific knowledge.
PeterBln (
talk)
18:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
"Aggresive and intimidatory tone"; "Inflating the number of the victims"; "speculations" (which cannot be supported anymore!): it sounds sooo familiar...-- Fracastorius ( talk) 21:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Replacing 600 000 with 2 000 000 is "inflating". "Speculations" is a precise description of many papers about Soviet policy published without Soviet (and other documents). Now we know how and why the 2 000 000 number was created. Please convince all German historian and journalists that the 2 000 000 is academic, before you impose the number outside Germany. Xx236 ( talk) 06:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The 12 million had been "expelled" legally according to Potsdam agreement, but only part of them physically. In reality the number includes millions evacuated. 1944-1948 - who and where "expelled" in 1944? Please don't quote garbage. Xx236 ( talk) 06:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The 2 million propaganda is being reintroduced in another articles, eg. Federation of Expellees. Xx236 ( talk) 07:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Some German editors use the word "Expulsion" both to describe the physical persecusions of Germans and legal consequences of the Potsdam Agreement (so including Flight and Expulsion). I would expect that the idea of this Wikipedia is to inform rather than to misinform using fuzzy and politically loaded words. Xx236 ( talk) 07:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
and return to discuss seriously. Xx236 ( talk) 06:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I really don't see how Kehl fits in here. It was a military evacuation during wartime, and the inhabitants were allowed to return (eventually). It seems quite different from all the others. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 15:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
"Bloodlands" by Timothy D. Snyder puts the "expulsion" in the context of German and Soviet crimes in Eastern Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 12:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
What is the logic behind this section? The majority of Wikipedia articles doesn't discuss status in international law, eg. OST-Arbeiter, why this article does? Xx236 ( talk) 11:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Single ethnic after many years of melting pot in post-war Germany. Language differences were like between Poles and Slovaks but noone called Poles and Slovaks "single ethnicity". Xx236 ( talk) 15:39, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
" Ethnicity - An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy." - if the people collected in Germany after WWII consisted one ethnicity, so Poles and Slovaks belonged to one ethnicity, too. Xx236 ( talk) 09:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Reasons should be mentioned first.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This article informs about "sadistic practices" in Lamsdorf. This Wikipedia uses such words mostly in sexual context. German "sadistic practices" were applied since 1933 toward tens of thousands, toward millions since 1939 and toward tens of millions since 1941. But probbably no Nazi Germany article uses such words to describe German cruelty, an integral part of III Reich. Which words are being used to describe the cruelty? The same words should be applied here, with explanation who "educated" the wardens 1939-1945. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 17 February 2011 (UTC) "In addition to the atrocities, the expellees had experienced hunger, thirst and disease, separation from family members, loss of civil rights and familiar environment,and sometimes internment and forced labour" - does this Wikipedia inform, that life in Eastern Europe was organized by Germans and Soviets in such way? Dachau concentration camp suggests that cruelty started in 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 10:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
What is the meaning of the "Expulsion" here? Is it Expulsion or Flight and Expulsion? Please don't manipulate. This article is about the Expulsion. Common looses should be discussed as "Flight and Expulsion", not in this article. Xx236 ( talk) 08:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
The Church Service figure of 473,000 includes both the flight the flight and the expulsions. You cannot separate the two.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 10:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC) You cannoct quote them as "Expulsion" in the article about "Expulsion" without explanation. Xx236 ( talk) 11:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Now the only real project is named "Visual Sign" ( de:Sichtbares Zeichen). Informations about the Centre are historical and should be moved to Centre Against Expulsions. This article is about the "Expulsion of Germans" rather than about the German propaganda. Xx236 ( talk) 12:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 |
Previous discussion doesn't seem to have gone anywhere towards solving this rather major problem with this important article - the title doesn't match the scope. The title implies we're talking specifically about expulsions, while we actually talk about a whole set of population movements, with perhaps a stronger focus on those which were expulsions, but by no means restricted to those. Can we finally decide what we're going to do - change the title, change the scope (and presumably create a new "parent" article to hold the information that pertains to the movements as a whole), or perhaps rewrite the article to explain to bewildered readers why evacuations and flight are being put under the heading "expulsions". Without descending into more pointless political debating, can we decide what we're going to do about this?-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
"Flight and Expulsion During and after WWII" or a range of dates like "(1944-1950) is a better description for the title of this article.
•It reflects the current historiography in Germany and Poland.
•It corrects the misconception in the English speaking world that these events occurred only after the war.
•There is currently no clear consensus on the number of deaths, the cause of these deaths and the exact timeframe that they occurred. These issues remain unresolved pending new research.
•We need to maintain a NPOV and point out and explain that these events are referred to as “expulsions” in Germany and “deportations” in Poland.
•Above all we should avoid the use of sources that exploit these events for political ends. Since the topic is controversial and disputed, we need to maintain a NPOV and should rely on scholarly and official sources that present the arguments in Poland as well as Germany.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Many countries participated - Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union. I have added the book "Forced Migrations" which includes authors of other nationalities than Germany and Poland. Differences between German authors are frequently sharper than betwen mainstream Polish and German ones. "Veropferung der Taeter" is a German left idea. Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, I see this has not really been settled. I think the "exodus" article must be considered a grandparent rather than a parent - it covers a much wider time-frame and range of events than this article. Anyway, no-one's come up with any other plan for bringing title into line with scope, so what do we now think of the proposed rename to either Flight and expulsion of Germans during and after World War II or Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)?-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The 7 million is an obvious error, which documents the method of writing the article. Xx236 ( talk) 14:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The figure of 7 million is correct, it is for German territories in the 1937 borders only.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The figure isn't correct, it includes people "legally" expelled, ie. both those evacuated and deported after the war. Kamusella is wrong because he says that the 7 million were expelled after the war. Xx236 ( talk) 11:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
"Overy cites approximate totals of those evacuated, migrated, or expelled between 1944 and 1950" - the name of the section is "Expulsions following Nazi Germany's defeat" and the name of the article "Expulsion of Germans after World War II". Either the name of the article should be "Flight and deportation of Germans" or the numbers should be removed. Xx236 ( talk) 14:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
If something is called "Flight and Expulsion" why to change the name to "Expulsion"? Xx236 ( talk) 15:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Gawryszewski, Andrzej. Ludność Polski w XX wieku.Warszawa : Instytut Geografii i Przestrzennego Zagospodarowania im. Stanisława Leszczyckiego PAN, 2005
You should be able to find it in a Polish library-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The whole text is available http://www.igipz.pan.pl/wydaw/Monografie_5/ and I have quoted it last week, see above. Xx236 ( talk) 15:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
15 million Germans were forced to flee or were expelled, 3 million from the Czech Republik and the rest mainly from Poland. 3 million Germans died in the course of this expulsion. These numbers have never been disputed by historians.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 20:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Prior to the war the Sudetenland had a German speaking majority, please see this Wikipedia map. [1] At the 1938 Munich confrence Germany was awarded the Sudetenland because of this ethnic dominance, this was also true in the case of Hungary which took part of Slovakia and Poland which took the Zaolzie.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Not all German speaking people were Nazi, eager to join the Reich... Xx236 ( talk) 15:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The source of the map is not clear to me. Also I cannot access that page on Google book. Dr. Loosmark 15:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Re above from Xx236 ("Not all German speaking people were Nazi, eager to join the Reich"): Why the over-generalization? You know enough of German history to know that numerous Germans in Sudetenland wanted the Sudetenland to join either Austria or Germany, and for many, such sentiments extended back prior to the rise of Nazism. As Roman Catholics, many German Sudetenlanders were not partial to the Nazis. Xx236, I doubt that you are Roman Catholic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.247.204 ( talk) 07:58, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
The Sudeten Germans were promised homerule by the American President Wilson after World war 1, but the newly-founded Czechoslovakia wanted a homogenious state. The Czech majority did not grant the Germans the same rights, therefore the Sudeten Germans turned to Germany. Mind you, both Czechs and Germans had been living together as neighbours - as part of the Holy Roman Empire and as part of the Austrian Empire for about 800 years.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 19:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The lead used to contain the following statement, would it be fair to say that some have described the events as genocide? - Schrandit ( talk) 10:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC) Would it be fair to include in the lead informations about the historical context, ie. the Holocaust and German crimes in occupied countries which caused common hatred toward the occupants? Xx236 ( talk) 11:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe the expulsion of 15 million Germans, whereby 3 million died, can`t be called genocide to distinquish it from the Holocaust, but it certainly was the biggest ethnic cleansing in European history.-- 92.230.68.196 ( talk) 19:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It was a part of Soviet policy in Eastern and Central Europe. It wasn't "ethnic" only, it's your POV. It was also a political and economical process. Persecutions of Nazis and capitalists are "Persecutions of Nazis and capitalists" in the GDR and "ethnic cleansing" in Poland. Bomnbing civilians is "bombing civilians" if the bombs are US or UK and "ethnic cleansing" if the bombs are Soviet. Raping women is "Raping women" in GDR but "ethnic cleansing" in Poland. The "Germans" were of many ethnicities including Slavic Silesians. "3 million died" during the war mainly, but some poeple believe that killing Slavs is O.K. but being killed by the Slavs is "Expulsion". More than 15 million run away and were evacuated in Soviet Union, but it's unimportant for some here. Germans planned to expell more than 15 million of Slavs, but they weren't allowed to, so it doesn't count - the Germans are the main victims of WWII, sorry - of European history. Xx236 ( talk) 12:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The article starts with this false statement. There were Slavs, eg. Upper Silesians and Czechs, among the refugees. Xx236 ( talk) 12:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Poland was occupied by the Soviets and any important decision was dictated from outside of the nation. Hungarians were Nazi allies, so the dictate was open and Poles were "Allies" so the dictate was hidden. But still many people claim that good Allies won bad Axis (and liberated Poland). Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The statement should be removed from the lede, because it's very controversial, it ignores the historical context, ignores tragedies of nations smaller than "Germans". Am I allowed to remove the statement from the lede? Xx236 ( talk) 06:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Eva Hahn "konečně uznání obětního beránka moderních evropských dějin, které pro sebe reklamovali již nacisté" (the final recognition of the (German) scapegoat of modern European history, demanded already by the Nazis) http://www.euportal.cz/Articles/727-sudetsti-nemci-maji-novou-strategii.aspx. Xx236 ( talk) 11:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Eva Hahn is anything else but an objective historian. She is absolutely biased, even hateful against Germans. Alfred Maurice de Zayas, American, renowned member of the UNO, is an expert for the expulsion of the Germans.-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 22:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Germans murdered millions, am I allowed to write in any WWII article that German crimes were the biggest in history? Xx236 ( talk) 10:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "Most radical version of the Nazi Generalplan Ost envisaged a 1000 km eastward shift of the German frotier, relocating a population of 31 mln (mainly Poles)into Siberia, as well as subsequent exterminating 5 mln people" History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949- So the "expulsion" of "Germans" was the biggest only beacause Germans weren't allowed to implement their project. Such information should be included into the article, because we lack the real context. Xx236 ( talk) 12:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "BdV„s representatives position the German nation as a victim of II World War; by placing it next to the nations mutilated by the German Nazi regime, they try to reshape the „community of victims”; they put the the postwar expulsions of Germans on equal footing with the Nazi drive for creating the “new living space” for Germans. History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949 Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC) "The interested public is shown the historical panorama that presents German collective victims together with the victims of Jewish genocide of the Second World War, and the Armenian genocide of World War I." - Ingo Haar, quoted in "History and Memory: mass expulsions and transfers 1939-1945-1949". Why this Wikipedia accepts the BdV POV? 13:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Xx236 ( talk)
Contemporary Soviet military affairs: the legacy of World War II, Page 4, Jonathan R. Adelman,Cristann Lea Gibson "Another 17 to 25 million people fled eastwards in the path of the German advance in 1941 and 1942" - so one German refugee seems to be more important than 1.5 till 2 non-German ones. I see this idea as racistic. 13:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Xx236 ( talk)
It's a manipulation. 2 million include victims of the war. WWII - ever heard? Xx236 ( talk) 09:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The best researched crimes were the ones committed on Sudetengermans in Czechoslovakia - the recent numbers are many times lower than the ones propagated by Germany since the war. Xx236 ( talk) 12:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is not about the "Expulsion of Germans after World War II" only. The wrong title represents BdV propaganda PoV and should be changed. Xx236 ( talk) 11:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the reference to statements by Erika Steinbach from the article. The reason for this is as follows:
1. According to the German historian Ingo Haar, Steinbach is "Relying on a work by an author associated with the extreme far-right, Heinz Nawratil". The original version of the text in the article attributed where Steinbach's opinion came from.
2. But the attribution to Nawratil was removed, for unclear reasons, by Herkus [2]. Then all that remained was Steinbach's opinion but not its source.
3. On the related BLP discussions it was noted that the fact that the president of the Federation of Expellees is relying on works by extremist authors was itself notable. This is my view as well and I think it should be important to be precise about the sources from which Erika Steinbach gets her information from - since she is a very prominent persona in this subject area, this is most definitely encyclopedic (and well sourced) information.
4. However, since some editors object to Nawratil's name being included at all, it makes sense that if you remove him, you should remove claims by Steinbach as well. Hopefully this can be a satisfactory compromise to everyone.
Also
5. The entire problem would be easily solved by having a section on "Use of expulsion for political reasons" in the article where this kind of thing can be explored. I know, I know, the article's "too long" already (never mind that there's like 10 versions of it on Wikipedia) but somehow no one seems to have the gumption to shorten it. radek ( talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
"Oh the whole "expulsion movement" has coverage in numerous works and publications, this article focuses only on its statements and the initial transfer of the population, while ignoring almost half of century of developments that happened afterwards. See for example: After the Expulsion: West Germany and Eastern Europe 1945-1990 [http://www.amazon.com/After-Expulsion-Germany-Eastern-1945-1990/dp/0199259895] The movements were very influential in German politics and destructive in West German relations with other countries. For instance some of them supported Munich Agreement enforced by Hitler on international community as valid, even after defeat of Nazi Germany. The widespread nationalism and patricipation of former Nazis was also problematic to external relations.This should be covered as we now lack the history that happened aftwerwads and which is connected. One interesting fact, which determined the attitude and which was not exposed in West Germany was the fact that the supposed victims often represented former strongholds of Nazi movements from before the war. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Some books are quoted twice, some once, some aren't. What is the logic? Xx236 ( talk) 09:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Would our radical German editors take part in internal German discussions de:Diskussion:Vertreibung rather than create problems here? Xx236 ( talk) 13:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC) The alleged "Expulsion of Germans" means in reality "Ausweisung und Flucht deutschsprachiger Bevölkerung aus Grenzräumen mit nichteinheitlicher Bevölkerungsgeschichte oder isolierten mehrheitlich deutschen Sprachgebieten". It's not the same. Xx236 ( talk) 13:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
From the
de:Vertreibung:Diskussion
"Bei einem Lemma „Vertreibung von Deutschen“ kriege ich nationale/ethnische/staatsbürgerliche Zahnschmerzen. Schließlich wollen wir hier doch keine NS-Klassifizierung übernehmen. Wer in diesem Zusammenhang ein "Deutscher" war und warum diese Einstufung, das ist ein Thema für sich, das in Einzelartikeln dargestellt werden sollte." Please discuss the subject with editors of German Wikipedia, when you refuse to accept any of my opinions.
Xx236 (
talk)
07:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
What is wrong with "Vertreibung der Deutschen"? Of course, other nationals were expelled, too. But the expulsion of the Germans was the biggest ethnic cleansing in European history. Euphemism does not make it better. Ashamed of being German? What about Beethoven, Goethe and all the others? -- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 21:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Radical is the ethnic cleansing of about 15 million people, but certainly not the mentioning of it. A perverse value system! -- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 21:46, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
What does the exact number of casualties matter? Everyone was one too much-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 22:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately your opinion wasn't popular among Germans till 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 07:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I am quite disappointed to see again some Wikipedia-users trying to silence about important historic facts.
My suggestions:
1.
The whole article is far too long and needs cleaning-up. At least half the text should be outsourced.
2. Also the title is not appropriate; according to most scientists dealing with the Vertreibung the expulsion of over 14 Million Germans with their families from their own houses and homeland was not just an expulsion, but an Ethnic Cleansing.
3.
The article contains a lot of redundant facts, while some very important facts like
genocide are completely swept under the carpet. At least 2.0 Million
German civilians perished long time after the war was over, most of them were either starved to death, tortured to death, raped or child-abused to death or otherwise deliberately murdered. The US-American Professor for International Law and former member of the
UN-Commission for Human Rights , Professor Dr.
Alfred de Zayas, defines this massmurder of German families as
genocideCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).</ref>. The
UNESCO Prize for Human Rights-laureate Professor Dr.
Felix Ermacora, also expert for International Law, reaches the same conclusion: "Die Vertreibung der deutschsprachigen Bevölkerung aus den osteuropäischen Staaten in den Jahren 1945/46 erfüllt den Tatbestand des Völkermordes.
[1]
The fate of all these millions of people are not dealt with in the article suffiently; a Genocide that has not been mentioned in an article of its own needs at least a section of its own. Furthermore i do not see anywhere in Wikipedia any headline referring to this Genocide of 2.0 Millions. More innocents perished in this genocide than in e.g. the Armenian Genocide, and yet this encyclopedia tries to hush it up. This is inacceptable.
Therefore, in view of an historic event of such dimensions, i call for creating a headline in this article that clearly refers to what it was: Genocide.
-- PeterBln ( talk) 17:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The full scope of the expulsion(s) of the Germans was neither "Ethnic Cleansing" nor Genocide according to the strict definitions of each of those concepts. Look up the definitions before you comment. The closest to Ethnic Cleansing came in Czechoslovakia, but because some exceptions were made even that doesn't fully qualify as Ethnic Cleansing, although an argument can be made that the ultimate effects yield de facto ethnic cleansing. The mass deportations in large areas of the eastern provinces of pre-war Germany doesn't qualify as ethnic cleansing based upon a technicality, namely that when the deportations occurred those lands were considered to be only under the "temporary administration" of Poland and the Soviet Union. This has all been talked about before in the archives. "Genocide" in theory could only be applied during the "Wild Expulsions", whereas the time therafter is claimed by some to be more in meeting with the "orderly and humane" specifics of the Potsdam Agreement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.247.204 ( talk) 09:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Could you please repeat that? The number of this Genocide as published by a member of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights are "ridiculously inflated numbers"?
This is a severe insult to the victims of this Genocide. You try to belittle and deny a Genocide. May i ask you please, to stop insulting the victims of this Genocide? You have not not presented any sources to back your claim. Where are your scientific sources?
Facts: The secretary of the Human Rights Committee and high-ranking former United Nations official Professor Dr. Alfred de Zayas puts the number of victims at over 2.0 million [2] [3].
I suggest you read the scientific sources by Prof. Dr.
Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, member of the
Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. It makes no sense if you try to discuss with scientists, when you do not have the appropriate scientific knowledge.
PeterBln (
talk)
18:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
"Aggresive and intimidatory tone"; "Inflating the number of the victims"; "speculations" (which cannot be supported anymore!): it sounds sooo familiar...-- Fracastorius ( talk) 21:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Replacing 600 000 with 2 000 000 is "inflating". "Speculations" is a precise description of many papers about Soviet policy published without Soviet (and other documents). Now we know how and why the 2 000 000 number was created. Please convince all German historian and journalists that the 2 000 000 is academic, before you impose the number outside Germany. Xx236 ( talk) 06:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The 12 million had been "expelled" legally according to Potsdam agreement, but only part of them physically. In reality the number includes millions evacuated. 1944-1948 - who and where "expelled" in 1944? Please don't quote garbage. Xx236 ( talk) 06:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The 2 million propaganda is being reintroduced in another articles, eg. Federation of Expellees. Xx236 ( talk) 07:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Some German editors use the word "Expulsion" both to describe the physical persecusions of Germans and legal consequences of the Potsdam Agreement (so including Flight and Expulsion). I would expect that the idea of this Wikipedia is to inform rather than to misinform using fuzzy and politically loaded words. Xx236 ( talk) 07:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
and return to discuss seriously. Xx236 ( talk) 06:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I really don't see how Kehl fits in here. It was a military evacuation during wartime, and the inhabitants were allowed to return (eventually). It seems quite different from all the others. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 15:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
"Bloodlands" by Timothy D. Snyder puts the "expulsion" in the context of German and Soviet crimes in Eastern Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 12:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
What is the logic behind this section? The majority of Wikipedia articles doesn't discuss status in international law, eg. OST-Arbeiter, why this article does? Xx236 ( talk) 11:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Single ethnic after many years of melting pot in post-war Germany. Language differences were like between Poles and Slovaks but noone called Poles and Slovaks "single ethnicity". Xx236 ( talk) 15:39, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
" Ethnicity - An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy." - if the people collected in Germany after WWII consisted one ethnicity, so Poles and Slovaks belonged to one ethnicity, too. Xx236 ( talk) 09:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Reasons should be mentioned first.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This article informs about "sadistic practices" in Lamsdorf. This Wikipedia uses such words mostly in sexual context. German "sadistic practices" were applied since 1933 toward tens of thousands, toward millions since 1939 and toward tens of millions since 1941. But probbably no Nazi Germany article uses such words to describe German cruelty, an integral part of III Reich. Which words are being used to describe the cruelty? The same words should be applied here, with explanation who "educated" the wardens 1939-1945. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 17 February 2011 (UTC) "In addition to the atrocities, the expellees had experienced hunger, thirst and disease, separation from family members, loss of civil rights and familiar environment,and sometimes internment and forced labour" - does this Wikipedia inform, that life in Eastern Europe was organized by Germans and Soviets in such way? Dachau concentration camp suggests that cruelty started in 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 10:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
What is the meaning of the "Expulsion" here? Is it Expulsion or Flight and Expulsion? Please don't manipulate. This article is about the Expulsion. Common looses should be discussed as "Flight and Expulsion", not in this article. Xx236 ( talk) 08:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
The Church Service figure of 473,000 includes both the flight the flight and the expulsions. You cannot separate the two.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 10:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC) You cannoct quote them as "Expulsion" in the article about "Expulsion" without explanation. Xx236 ( talk) 11:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Now the only real project is named "Visual Sign" ( de:Sichtbares Zeichen). Informations about the Centre are historical and should be moved to Centre Against Expulsions. This article is about the "Expulsion of Germans" rather than about the German propaganda. Xx236 ( talk) 12:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)