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I am a bit sceptical of the article in its current form. All the quoted examples are presented as relatively successful uses of the fleet-in-being strategy. I am convinced that a historical analysis would come to the conclusion that most uses of this strategy is a waste of resources.
Sensemaker
The Italian example quoted doesn't make sense - Taranto was in November 1940, well before the contested Malta convoys. -- Cyclopaedic 22:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I tried to add a reference to Saddam Husseins use of his airforce as and airforce-in-being but for some reason it turned up as two references. I have tried but failed to correct it. I would appreciate if someone more experienced in wikipedia editing could correct it.
Sensemaker
I don't quite agree with the above comment ("I am a bit skeptical..."). I certainly think that there's room to criticize the approach and to point out examples where it has been particularly controversial (the effectiveness of Tirpitz' naval theories etc.) but I think a broader criticism of it as a generally unsuccessful strategy that is being given disproportionately positive examples is a bit off. Most people would recognize that the German fleet in being was not tremendously successful; but fleets, armies, "forces in being" have so often exerted a powerful influence without direct involvement that I think any criticism or praise of it should probably be dependant on specific historical contexts.
I'm also wondering somewhat about the statements about it being an obsolete strategy; I would think that there's something fairly perpetual about the notion of "forces in being," including fleets, which while vulnerable to air attack are also probably mobile enough now to allow for fleet-in-being strategies in, for example, coastal naval situations with integrated air defence.
On the whole I liked the article. 142.177.155.152 02:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I will add to questions that the description of it being a harbor strategy may be off -- it was a fleet in being AT SEA, allowing a smaller force to tie down a larger one, achieving strategic purpose by avoiding tactical action. I note the contrary example in Napoleonic era of the French fleets in harbor; these were blockaded, so instead it was the British force which was smaller and achieving it's strategic ends of not being invaded or having commerce stopped. The French also lost strategically in that the immobile fleets could not exercise sailing to train crews, nor do fleet manuevers, whereas the German fleets in WW I and II in the Baltic could exercise their crews.
The extensions to land and air warfare are unreferenced and, in my view, weak. I particularly dislike the refernce to guerillla war - surely a guerilla force taht stayed at home and avoided engaging the enemy would not be achieving anything?
The section on world war one should be expanded - the stand-off in the North Sea must surely be the prime example of the doctrine. But my understanding is that for most of the war the British sought a fleet action with the Germans, and the Germans sought to maintain a fleet in being - though the Germans did actively try to provoke an engagement with a small part of the British fleet, hoping to remove the British numerical advantage by sinking a squadron or so.
The world war two section is also weak. I think the article should concentrate exclusively on actual, referenced applications of the doctine, and not on analogies.
Proper referencing would probably cure all these problems. Cyclopaedic ( talk) 10:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I am thinking of ideas for material to the article, in particular as follows. Would appreciate suggestions of folks as to what to do with these. [* A cite to the mentioned Mayher work http://books.google.com/books?id=xv8AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=#PPR1 ... not sure if this would better be a citation or a reference, but it seems where the modern usage stems from. [* Cite to where Mahan attributes the phrase to Torrington http://books.google.com/books?id=dw7VUrd2CsQC&pg=PA242&dq=fleet+in+being+torrington&num=100&sig=9d5Ue0p_4XrO4nXiwLzAAXS6lIg [* Mention that he used it in his courtmartial defense, makes me want to cite the courtmartial (not found), or the orders for him to attack (not found) [* Links to Lord Torrington's battle, the invasion it was to aide, are possible but seem a bit off-topic. [* Addition that per Geoffrey Till, "fleet in being" played a part back to the Peloponnesian War (citation needed), although the terms modern use derives from Mahan from Torrington's actions and his defense in courtmartial. (citation needed) [* Other links such as http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/fleet-in-being.htm
Why is Mahan credited with the first use when Torrington predates him by over a century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 ( talk) 21:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Evolution is natural for both man and machines. From the US Horse Cavalry to the Sheridan's of the Vietnam War. From the wooden ships powered by sail, to the engine powered steel ships of the 20th century. But they each had their own websites, or Wikipedia articles. There are articles on "Ships of Sail" and "Modern Vessels", but they are generally not combined into one article.
As an example, a writer would not generally combine Soviet General Zhukov's tank battles at Nomonhan with Wellington's cavalry battle at Waterloo; and yet Zhukov deployed cavalry BT tanks at Nomonhan. The name (cavalry) was the same, but Zhukov's "cavalry" tanks are not Wellington's "cavalry." The cavalry horse evolved into a cavalry tank; thus TWO DIFFERENT articles.
This article is about "Naval Warfare" and one of the elements of it; a fleet in being. To use comparisons of airpower or land power would infringe upon this topic. For example, it "could" be said that Germany's need to destroy Britain's RAF before they could invade across the English channel, or Japan's need to destroy the US Air Corp's Airfield at Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines could be construed to be "air power versions of a fleet in being." This would require a different Wikipedia Article (or at least a redirect to it.
All they need is a writer to research those associated subjects, to create another article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.3.230 ( talk) 23:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This might be an interesting avenue for further article development:
Julian Corbett’s views, in particular, were strongly criticised [by the Soviet navy] as allegedly ignoring the lessons of the Spanish-American and Russo-Japanese wars. The new trend in Soviet naval theory was to argue that the old ideas that Nelson represented in terms of general fleet engagements and blockade were no longer valid for modern naval thought.92 However, in the years between 1946 and 1953 Soviet naval attitudes seemed to have modified and begun to accept Corbett’s understanding of a ‘fleet-inbeing’ strategy in the way that Corbett had attributed its understanding to Nelson in the Mediterranean in 1796: ‘an inferior fleet kept actively in being’ in order to exploit its ‘general power of holding such command [of the sea] in dispute’.93
- 92. Robert W. Herrick, Soviet Naval Theory and Policy: Gorshkov’s Inheritance (Newport: Naval War College Press, 1988), pp. 12–13, 202–3, 206–7.
- 93. Ibid., p. 188, and also 225, 270; Julian S. Corbett, Some Principles of Maritime Strategy, edited with an introduction by Eric Grove, Classics of Sea Power series (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1988), pp. 223–4. Corbett’s comments are based on Nelson’s letter to the Duke of Clarence, 19 August 1796. Nicolas (ed.), Letters, vol. III, p. 246.
— John B. Hattendorf (2005). "Chapter 8: Nelson Afloat: A Hero Among the World's Navies". In David Cannadine (ed.). Admiral Lord Nelson Context and Legacy (PDF). asingstoke, & New York: Palgrave Macmillan. p. 183. ISBN 978–1–4039–3906–7.{{ cite book}}
: Check|isbn=
value: invalid character ( help)
-- PBS ( talk) 06:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
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I am a bit sceptical of the article in its current form. All the quoted examples are presented as relatively successful uses of the fleet-in-being strategy. I am convinced that a historical analysis would come to the conclusion that most uses of this strategy is a waste of resources.
Sensemaker
The Italian example quoted doesn't make sense - Taranto was in November 1940, well before the contested Malta convoys. -- Cyclopaedic 22:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I tried to add a reference to Saddam Husseins use of his airforce as and airforce-in-being but for some reason it turned up as two references. I have tried but failed to correct it. I would appreciate if someone more experienced in wikipedia editing could correct it.
Sensemaker
I don't quite agree with the above comment ("I am a bit skeptical..."). I certainly think that there's room to criticize the approach and to point out examples where it has been particularly controversial (the effectiveness of Tirpitz' naval theories etc.) but I think a broader criticism of it as a generally unsuccessful strategy that is being given disproportionately positive examples is a bit off. Most people would recognize that the German fleet in being was not tremendously successful; but fleets, armies, "forces in being" have so often exerted a powerful influence without direct involvement that I think any criticism or praise of it should probably be dependant on specific historical contexts.
I'm also wondering somewhat about the statements about it being an obsolete strategy; I would think that there's something fairly perpetual about the notion of "forces in being," including fleets, which while vulnerable to air attack are also probably mobile enough now to allow for fleet-in-being strategies in, for example, coastal naval situations with integrated air defence.
On the whole I liked the article. 142.177.155.152 02:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I will add to questions that the description of it being a harbor strategy may be off -- it was a fleet in being AT SEA, allowing a smaller force to tie down a larger one, achieving strategic purpose by avoiding tactical action. I note the contrary example in Napoleonic era of the French fleets in harbor; these were blockaded, so instead it was the British force which was smaller and achieving it's strategic ends of not being invaded or having commerce stopped. The French also lost strategically in that the immobile fleets could not exercise sailing to train crews, nor do fleet manuevers, whereas the German fleets in WW I and II in the Baltic could exercise their crews.
The extensions to land and air warfare are unreferenced and, in my view, weak. I particularly dislike the refernce to guerillla war - surely a guerilla force taht stayed at home and avoided engaging the enemy would not be achieving anything?
The section on world war one should be expanded - the stand-off in the North Sea must surely be the prime example of the doctrine. But my understanding is that for most of the war the British sought a fleet action with the Germans, and the Germans sought to maintain a fleet in being - though the Germans did actively try to provoke an engagement with a small part of the British fleet, hoping to remove the British numerical advantage by sinking a squadron or so.
The world war two section is also weak. I think the article should concentrate exclusively on actual, referenced applications of the doctine, and not on analogies.
Proper referencing would probably cure all these problems. Cyclopaedic ( talk) 10:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I am thinking of ideas for material to the article, in particular as follows. Would appreciate suggestions of folks as to what to do with these. [* A cite to the mentioned Mayher work http://books.google.com/books?id=xv8AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=#PPR1 ... not sure if this would better be a citation or a reference, but it seems where the modern usage stems from. [* Cite to where Mahan attributes the phrase to Torrington http://books.google.com/books?id=dw7VUrd2CsQC&pg=PA242&dq=fleet+in+being+torrington&num=100&sig=9d5Ue0p_4XrO4nXiwLzAAXS6lIg [* Mention that he used it in his courtmartial defense, makes me want to cite the courtmartial (not found), or the orders for him to attack (not found) [* Links to Lord Torrington's battle, the invasion it was to aide, are possible but seem a bit off-topic. [* Addition that per Geoffrey Till, "fleet in being" played a part back to the Peloponnesian War (citation needed), although the terms modern use derives from Mahan from Torrington's actions and his defense in courtmartial. (citation needed) [* Other links such as http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/fleet-in-being.htm
Why is Mahan credited with the first use when Torrington predates him by over a century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 ( talk) 21:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Evolution is natural for both man and machines. From the US Horse Cavalry to the Sheridan's of the Vietnam War. From the wooden ships powered by sail, to the engine powered steel ships of the 20th century. But they each had their own websites, or Wikipedia articles. There are articles on "Ships of Sail" and "Modern Vessels", but they are generally not combined into one article.
As an example, a writer would not generally combine Soviet General Zhukov's tank battles at Nomonhan with Wellington's cavalry battle at Waterloo; and yet Zhukov deployed cavalry BT tanks at Nomonhan. The name (cavalry) was the same, but Zhukov's "cavalry" tanks are not Wellington's "cavalry." The cavalry horse evolved into a cavalry tank; thus TWO DIFFERENT articles.
This article is about "Naval Warfare" and one of the elements of it; a fleet in being. To use comparisons of airpower or land power would infringe upon this topic. For example, it "could" be said that Germany's need to destroy Britain's RAF before they could invade across the English channel, or Japan's need to destroy the US Air Corp's Airfield at Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines could be construed to be "air power versions of a fleet in being." This would require a different Wikipedia Article (or at least a redirect to it.
All they need is a writer to research those associated subjects, to create another article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.3.230 ( talk) 23:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This might be an interesting avenue for further article development:
Julian Corbett’s views, in particular, were strongly criticised [by the Soviet navy] as allegedly ignoring the lessons of the Spanish-American and Russo-Japanese wars. The new trend in Soviet naval theory was to argue that the old ideas that Nelson represented in terms of general fleet engagements and blockade were no longer valid for modern naval thought.92 However, in the years between 1946 and 1953 Soviet naval attitudes seemed to have modified and begun to accept Corbett’s understanding of a ‘fleet-inbeing’ strategy in the way that Corbett had attributed its understanding to Nelson in the Mediterranean in 1796: ‘an inferior fleet kept actively in being’ in order to exploit its ‘general power of holding such command [of the sea] in dispute’.93
- 92. Robert W. Herrick, Soviet Naval Theory and Policy: Gorshkov’s Inheritance (Newport: Naval War College Press, 1988), pp. 12–13, 202–3, 206–7.
- 93. Ibid., p. 188, and also 225, 270; Julian S. Corbett, Some Principles of Maritime Strategy, edited with an introduction by Eric Grove, Classics of Sea Power series (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1988), pp. 223–4. Corbett’s comments are based on Nelson’s letter to the Duke of Clarence, 19 August 1796. Nicolas (ed.), Letters, vol. III, p. 246.
— John B. Hattendorf (2005). "Chapter 8: Nelson Afloat: A Hero Among the World's Navies". In David Cannadine (ed.). Admiral Lord Nelson Context and Legacy (PDF). asingstoke, & New York: Palgrave Macmillan. p. 183. ISBN 978–1–4039–3906–7.{{ cite book}}
: Check|isbn=
value: invalid character ( help)
-- PBS ( talk) 06:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
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