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It's a pity that Martin Linde, Grafenauer and Morris have been removed. In the fullness of time this list will maybe need pruning, but at the present it needs expansion, and some more detail fleshing out for the entries which are in the lists.
I'll leave this for the moment, but may come back to it later.
David Martland 08:44, 27 April 2003 (UTC)
Flutist or flautist? Danny
I have never heard of a "flutist", yet I see that Google (admittedly, not a reliable guide) gives it more hits than "flautist". I guess it must be American usage. Tannin
We've had this discussion before - most people around the world actually use the word flutist, but in Britain the term flautist is the only one used.
Now that there is a longer section for jazz musicians who play the flute, I hope that there will be more updating and improvement of this page.
David Martland 08:26, 28 April 2003 (UTC)
Hmmm: It's certainly not just Britain. If a student wrote "flutist" in a paper here in Australia, it would get red ink through it. Always "flautist" here. Tannin
Being an amateur American musician, I feel obligated to comment...;) I don't think I've ever seen "flutist", just "flautist" and perhaps "flute player" and "player of the flute" (both "flutist" and "flautist" sounding awkward to some). I remember one episode of The Golden Girls where one character referred to someone as a "flautist" and a second party said, "Oh, she plays the flute", and the first responded sarcastically, "No, she plays the flaut. It's like a tuba but with hair on the bottom!" :)
I would suggest "flautist" is the correct usage in every English-speaking region, but "flutist" is a more common incorrect back-formation from flute. Just like more people say "just desserts" (thinking wrongly it is a metaphor) than "just deserts" (where "deserts" is pronounced as "desserts" and refers directly to punishment).
-- Furrykef 23:14, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Flutist dates to 1595-1605. Flautist entered English from Italian around 1855-1860. Pretension and a British accent complement one another, so why not use some ritzy Continental word instead of the proper English one. Even more amusing, Nathaniel Hawthorne is cited by the OED as using "flautist" first, meaning the British have opted for an American neologism while Americans stuck with an older term (but not oldest, at least in print) 24.47.23.189 04:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
If we're going to insist that UK/Commonwealth usage is the standard, then we should all pronounce vitamin with the so-called "short" i sound, and the "u" should be restored to favor and color, gray should be spelled grey, etc. At this point, neither is "correct." Both are used, they are regionalisms. Please note that in every other language the term for a player of the instrument is simply the word for "flute" + a modifer that indicates "player of," eg, flûte/flûtiste. Dmhulbert 03:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that some of the flutists have descriptions by them, but many don't. I'm not wild about explaining who Boehm, Frederick the Great, and Quantz were, but not giving Rampal a blurb. Would anyone object if I just took out all of the summaries? Or should we add summaries to the rest of them? I don't really care; I just think it's silly how it is now. Starwiz 01:28, 11 February 2005 (UTC)
...since the article itself says "flautist" is the standard English term. Either move, or remove that note. ··gracefool | ☺ 10:51, 16 June 2005 (UTC)
i'm a flutist or flautist(flutist sounds better) it's amazing how many ways people will pronounce Flutist. i've been called a fluterist, flutist(pronounce the u as in flut), and many people call me "Flute Dude". it's funny to see people try figure out what a flute player is called:) BoOkWoRm 20:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
...but everyone knows what a "flute player" is! -- Blouis79 00:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I know that it might seem a bit unnecessary, but as there's no agreed spelling for the topic, maybe we should include IPA pronunciations for "flautist" vs. "flutist"... just to make it clear. I figure we'd live without one, but it'd be nice. T. S. Rice 21:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
And from an my Australian flautist's perspective flutist sounds odd. The title is far less important than the content which seems to explain the different origins adequately. I do note, however, that flutist gets far more webhits but if the term is used uniformly in the US then this is only to be expected. The consise Oxford English Dictionary lists flautist as the name with flutist as an American alternative and my Websters lists both flutist and flautist with no expressed preference - Peripitus (Talk) 12:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is a need for some serious re-thinking about who is on this list. The list should include people who are or have been famous and influtential flutists, not famous people who just happen to play the flute. The list should include those who have had some influence on flute construction, flute techniques, or flute uses. Georges Barrere needs to be on the list ASAP. Gary Schocker, the world’s most published living composer of music for the flute, belongs on the list. Peter Gabriel simply doens't belong there. An agency like the "National Flute Association" [1] should weigh in on this. Weyandt 20:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see my added para to the controversy section, respectfully submitted. Cryptonymius 18:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted Michelle Flaherty's name from the list. I don't think she warrants being mentioned here. If anyone thinks she should be on the list, please give your reasons here before readding her name.-- Tabun1015 15:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
What's up with the giant video on this page? It's ugly, takes up a lot of space, and slows down the page load. Why is it even here? I've never even seen videos like this on Wikipedia. -- Colinbartlett 22:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I added flutist to the existing terms flautist and flute-player in the first sentence. I hope this isn't objectionable, as I didn't remove the terms that were already there but only acknowledged, in addition, the widespread and completely accepted use of flutist in the US. Stan really hit the nail on the head when he remarked: "Flautist in the US tends [to] connote pretentiousness, such as by non-players trying to sound knowledgeable." I've been a professional musician in the US for decades, and I've heard flautist plenty of times, but hardly ever from the mouth of a professional colleague (especially one who plays flute). I respectfully disagree with Furrykef's suggestion that "flautist is the correct usage in every English-speaking region." Emoll 22:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Reading a combination of controversy, history and modern usage, "Flute player" seems to me the preferred and historically correct and neutral term.-- Blouis79 23:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There were many options discussed here (including treating the article more like a list) but there doesn't seem to be a consensus in favour of any of them. I should note for the benefit of any future discussion that the argument about regional varieties of English is a very, very old debate here, and generally speaking unless a term has a strong connection with any particular variety, it tends to be "first come, first served" in terms of spelling. -- bainer ( talk) 13:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the word "flautist" derives ultimately from Provencal, not Italian. This should be mentioned in the article. Badagnani 22:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
First, let me state, I'm not proposing deletion. My goal is just to generate some discussion.
The article currently [3] has three sections.
This is a really old article (going back to 15 Nov. 2002). From then till now, there has not been enough content added to warrant an article. The list should really be moved to List of flautists. The definition is only important because of the rest of the article. Otherwise a disambig. page with a Wiktionary link will do. So what you're left with is "Naming controversy". That's it. The whole article. And that's fine, but then the article should be renamed to Naming controversy involving "flautists" or something like that. Rocket000 ( talk) 07:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who she is, but she is certainly not "of the rock group Jethro Tull". A google search on "jennifer fetzer" + flute came up with five results, four of which simply quoted this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.192.231 ( talk) 00:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
"Also one of the finest people you'll ever meet! And my personal favorite." -- enough said. Pasi ( talk) 11:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This is silly, the following were all removed from the article page:
Notable (???) flautists
Jazz flute players
Notable innovators/Contemporary composers
Notable progressive rock players include:
- Nigosh ( talk) 19:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that in The Flute Book Toff says the term "flautist" has negative connotations?:
"In Nancy Toff's essential The Flute Book, she explains that the term flautist is associated with the negative connotations derived from the Latin verb, flaut which means to jeer or mock, which 'apparently derives its meaning from the practice of playing a flute to ridicule.' " -- JohnDoe0007 ( talk) 13:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Given the fact that Paris is the "jazz capital" of Europe, there is no reason why a largely recognized French musician such as fr:Magic Malik shouldn't be included. 87.69.131.103 ( talk) 19:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
This section is out of control. What are the criteria for being placed on this list? -- Onorem ♠ Dil 22:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
William Kincaid's name is linked to an article for an artist, not the flutist mentioned here. Can I correct this error, or is someone else responsible? Thanks! COflutist ( talk) 04:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Though I have long heard the pronunciation; I had been led to believe that 'flutist' was incorrect. After having read the Wikipedia info, I continue to prefer flautist.. I believe that in musical academia this preference is also shared. Not only is this because of my experience; it is due to the prolific use of the Italian language as musical terminology. Of course this principle doesn't apply to all the musical instruments; but the bastardization of English by Americans often robs the language of its color. In the languages of art disciplines; I feel that the flowery options are often more appealing;and thus, often more appropriate. Fredbarr3519 ( talk) 14:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC) Fred Barr
I have merged "Flutist" and "List of flautists"; selected "flutist" over "flautist" as it is the older term, and the one preferred by the cited musicians in "Flautist". There were a number of additional (small) improvements, mainly to style an picture & TOC placement.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 20:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Раціональне анархіст, open a new section at the bottom of this page and paste the following:
{{subst:requested move|Flutist|reason=Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please present Google Books or Google News Archive results before providing other web results. Do not sign this.}}
Remove the nowiki tags and everything after the "reason=". Replace that with your explanation as to why it should be moved. The full explanation is at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting potentially controversial moves. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Regarding this, I thought I'd link a picture demonstrating the "huge white square" problem.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 06:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Flautist → Flutist – At present, the Flautist article is wholly given over to quotations as to why various notables dislike "flautist" (the current article name) and prefer "flutist" (presently redirecting to the former). Subsequent to a successful move, a merger will be initiated to incorporate material presently residing on List of flautists. The resulting Flutist would then approximate the format of Pianist (essentially an umbrella list article without "List of..." in the title). Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 00:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
"Pages in the category namespace can be moved but in a non-automated way which requires considerable post-move cleanup. This is a time-consuming process and should only be done if there is a very good reason to do so. In addition to gaining consensus for a category move, the move should be investigated and planned out before it is initiated... After the category page is moved, all pages in the original category must be updated to the new category. Do not begin to move a category if you are not sure you can complete this process."
"When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. With few exceptions (e.g. when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change. When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default... An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another."
Alternative proposal: For now, leave
Leave allthe Flautist categories & lists as they are; re-direct both Flutist & Flautist to Flute; and summarizeputthe "Flutist versus Flautist" material there within the Etymologyas a newsection. — Patrug ( talk) 09:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)10:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
From Patrug's 09:33, 29 December 2014 reply in the preceding section, I'm ceding that it is unlikely that the present article will be renamed. However, I do still feel strongly that the article serves no purpose other than as a repository for the unattractive "vs." ramble, and is thus decidedly unencyclopedic compared to, say, Pianist. Therefore, without unduly annoying everyone with another garish template, I'd like to gauge support for merging the List article into this one, and greatly trimming (or removing entirely) "vs.", with the result being approximately similar to Pianist.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 18:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"Standard practice is to entitle list articles as List of ___ (for example list of Xs)."
Assuming we go ahead and merge this woe-begotten Flautist stub into Flute#Etymology, here's a first attempt at distilling the "long rant" into a simple paragraph:
Today, a musician who plays any instrument in the flute family can be called a flutist (pronounced "FLEW-tist", most common in the US), [1] or flautist (pronounced "FLAW-tist", most common in the UK), [2] or simply a flute player (more neutrally). Flutist dates back to at least 1603, the earliest quote cited by the Oxford English Dictionary. Flautist was used in 1860 by Nathaniel Hawthorne in The Marble Faun, after being adopted during the 18th century from Italy (flautista, itself from flauto), like many musical terms in England since the Italian Renaissance. Other English terms, now virtually obsolete, are fluter (15th–19th centuries) [3] [4] [5] and flutenist (17th–18th centuries). [6] [7]
Other English terms wereThe current English terms were preceded byflutenist (c.1700) andeven earlier byfluter (c.1400).
- ^ "Flutist". Oxford English Dictionary (American English). Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Flautist". Oxford English Dictionary (British & World English). Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Fluter (c.1400)". Oxford English Dictionary.
- ^ "Fluter". Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Fluter". Random House Dictionary and Collins English Dictionary. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Flutenist". The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ Smith, Fenwick. "Is it flutist or flautist?". Archived from the original on 16 January 2014. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
What do people think — too short? too long? Further edits welcome, along with improved citations. — Patrug ( talk) 14:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Rhod, I missed the 1700 vs. 1603 timing. The revision above should be better. The leading "Today" will clarify the transition from the first paragraph of Flute#Etymology, which mostly deals with the Middle Ages. — Patrug ( talk) 04:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Jerome. I was indeed planning to keep the current lede material in Flute (perhaps compressed to one sentence with no citations, ending: "... less commonly, a fluter or flutenist."), and use the Etymology section to insert the more-detailed paragraph above (which I've tweaked again to incorporate your Comment and the key dictionary links relocated from the lede). Hope this helps. — Patrug ( talk) 05:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - I oppose the merger of Flautist into Flute#Etymology in preference to the alternative described in the previous section (the Vs. section can be merged away, while the List article is merged into this article, which remains). Pax 15:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Conclusion: After more than two weeks of discussion above, it's clear that we have a consensus on all the key points. All the relevant comments (starting with Stan in 2007, and now Patrug, Ajax, Rhod, Jerome, Necro) and all the relevant guidelines ( WP:MOVE, WP:RETAIN, WP:TITLE, WP:LISTNAME, collectively representing hundreds of experienced editors & admins) support the 12/29/2014 Alternative proposal above, rather than the disruptive 12/22/2014 edits and 12/25/2014 proposal and 12/29/2014 variant (all from Pax = Раціональне анархіст = Rational Anarchist) that would empty List of flautists. When Pax appealed for "naming conformity" with Pianists, we produced dozens of counter-examples comprising "Lists of" virtually every other important instrument. When Pax ignored this and appealed instead for "an official encyclopedia preference", we found the unambiguous "List of" guideline from WP:LISTNAME. It shouldn't require an outside admin to confirm the uncontroversial & unanimous consensus against Pax's endless arguments. Enough already. I've just implemented the consensus solution, following WP:MERGETEXT, and we can continue fine-tuning the dictionary summaries in the lede & Etymology sections of Flute. Sincere thanks to all contributors. — Patrug ( talk) 05:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is the
talk page of a
redirect that targets the page: • Flute Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Flute |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Flautist was copied or moved into Flute with this edit on 05:12, 7 January 2015. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It's a pity that Martin Linde, Grafenauer and Morris have been removed. In the fullness of time this list will maybe need pruning, but at the present it needs expansion, and some more detail fleshing out for the entries which are in the lists.
I'll leave this for the moment, but may come back to it later.
David Martland 08:44, 27 April 2003 (UTC)
Flutist or flautist? Danny
I have never heard of a "flutist", yet I see that Google (admittedly, not a reliable guide) gives it more hits than "flautist". I guess it must be American usage. Tannin
We've had this discussion before - most people around the world actually use the word flutist, but in Britain the term flautist is the only one used.
Now that there is a longer section for jazz musicians who play the flute, I hope that there will be more updating and improvement of this page.
David Martland 08:26, 28 April 2003 (UTC)
Hmmm: It's certainly not just Britain. If a student wrote "flutist" in a paper here in Australia, it would get red ink through it. Always "flautist" here. Tannin
Being an amateur American musician, I feel obligated to comment...;) I don't think I've ever seen "flutist", just "flautist" and perhaps "flute player" and "player of the flute" (both "flutist" and "flautist" sounding awkward to some). I remember one episode of The Golden Girls where one character referred to someone as a "flautist" and a second party said, "Oh, she plays the flute", and the first responded sarcastically, "No, she plays the flaut. It's like a tuba but with hair on the bottom!" :)
I would suggest "flautist" is the correct usage in every English-speaking region, but "flutist" is a more common incorrect back-formation from flute. Just like more people say "just desserts" (thinking wrongly it is a metaphor) than "just deserts" (where "deserts" is pronounced as "desserts" and refers directly to punishment).
-- Furrykef 23:14, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Flutist dates to 1595-1605. Flautist entered English from Italian around 1855-1860. Pretension and a British accent complement one another, so why not use some ritzy Continental word instead of the proper English one. Even more amusing, Nathaniel Hawthorne is cited by the OED as using "flautist" first, meaning the British have opted for an American neologism while Americans stuck with an older term (but not oldest, at least in print) 24.47.23.189 04:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
If we're going to insist that UK/Commonwealth usage is the standard, then we should all pronounce vitamin with the so-called "short" i sound, and the "u" should be restored to favor and color, gray should be spelled grey, etc. At this point, neither is "correct." Both are used, they are regionalisms. Please note that in every other language the term for a player of the instrument is simply the word for "flute" + a modifer that indicates "player of," eg, flûte/flûtiste. Dmhulbert 03:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that some of the flutists have descriptions by them, but many don't. I'm not wild about explaining who Boehm, Frederick the Great, and Quantz were, but not giving Rampal a blurb. Would anyone object if I just took out all of the summaries? Or should we add summaries to the rest of them? I don't really care; I just think it's silly how it is now. Starwiz 01:28, 11 February 2005 (UTC)
...since the article itself says "flautist" is the standard English term. Either move, or remove that note. ··gracefool | ☺ 10:51, 16 June 2005 (UTC)
i'm a flutist or flautist(flutist sounds better) it's amazing how many ways people will pronounce Flutist. i've been called a fluterist, flutist(pronounce the u as in flut), and many people call me "Flute Dude". it's funny to see people try figure out what a flute player is called:) BoOkWoRm 20:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
...but everyone knows what a "flute player" is! -- Blouis79 00:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I know that it might seem a bit unnecessary, but as there's no agreed spelling for the topic, maybe we should include IPA pronunciations for "flautist" vs. "flutist"... just to make it clear. I figure we'd live without one, but it'd be nice. T. S. Rice 21:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
And from an my Australian flautist's perspective flutist sounds odd. The title is far less important than the content which seems to explain the different origins adequately. I do note, however, that flutist gets far more webhits but if the term is used uniformly in the US then this is only to be expected. The consise Oxford English Dictionary lists flautist as the name with flutist as an American alternative and my Websters lists both flutist and flautist with no expressed preference - Peripitus (Talk) 12:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is a need for some serious re-thinking about who is on this list. The list should include people who are or have been famous and influtential flutists, not famous people who just happen to play the flute. The list should include those who have had some influence on flute construction, flute techniques, or flute uses. Georges Barrere needs to be on the list ASAP. Gary Schocker, the world’s most published living composer of music for the flute, belongs on the list. Peter Gabriel simply doens't belong there. An agency like the "National Flute Association" [1] should weigh in on this. Weyandt 20:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see my added para to the controversy section, respectfully submitted. Cryptonymius 18:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted Michelle Flaherty's name from the list. I don't think she warrants being mentioned here. If anyone thinks she should be on the list, please give your reasons here before readding her name.-- Tabun1015 15:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
What's up with the giant video on this page? It's ugly, takes up a lot of space, and slows down the page load. Why is it even here? I've never even seen videos like this on Wikipedia. -- Colinbartlett 22:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I added flutist to the existing terms flautist and flute-player in the first sentence. I hope this isn't objectionable, as I didn't remove the terms that were already there but only acknowledged, in addition, the widespread and completely accepted use of flutist in the US. Stan really hit the nail on the head when he remarked: "Flautist in the US tends [to] connote pretentiousness, such as by non-players trying to sound knowledgeable." I've been a professional musician in the US for decades, and I've heard flautist plenty of times, but hardly ever from the mouth of a professional colleague (especially one who plays flute). I respectfully disagree with Furrykef's suggestion that "flautist is the correct usage in every English-speaking region." Emoll 22:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Reading a combination of controversy, history and modern usage, "Flute player" seems to me the preferred and historically correct and neutral term.-- Blouis79 23:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There were many options discussed here (including treating the article more like a list) but there doesn't seem to be a consensus in favour of any of them. I should note for the benefit of any future discussion that the argument about regional varieties of English is a very, very old debate here, and generally speaking unless a term has a strong connection with any particular variety, it tends to be "first come, first served" in terms of spelling. -- bainer ( talk) 13:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the word "flautist" derives ultimately from Provencal, not Italian. This should be mentioned in the article. Badagnani 22:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
First, let me state, I'm not proposing deletion. My goal is just to generate some discussion.
The article currently [3] has three sections.
This is a really old article (going back to 15 Nov. 2002). From then till now, there has not been enough content added to warrant an article. The list should really be moved to List of flautists. The definition is only important because of the rest of the article. Otherwise a disambig. page with a Wiktionary link will do. So what you're left with is "Naming controversy". That's it. The whole article. And that's fine, but then the article should be renamed to Naming controversy involving "flautists" or something like that. Rocket000 ( talk) 07:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who she is, but she is certainly not "of the rock group Jethro Tull". A google search on "jennifer fetzer" + flute came up with five results, four of which simply quoted this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.192.231 ( talk) 00:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
"Also one of the finest people you'll ever meet! And my personal favorite." -- enough said. Pasi ( talk) 11:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This is silly, the following were all removed from the article page:
Notable (???) flautists
Jazz flute players
Notable innovators/Contemporary composers
Notable progressive rock players include:
- Nigosh ( talk) 19:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that in The Flute Book Toff says the term "flautist" has negative connotations?:
"In Nancy Toff's essential The Flute Book, she explains that the term flautist is associated with the negative connotations derived from the Latin verb, flaut which means to jeer or mock, which 'apparently derives its meaning from the practice of playing a flute to ridicule.' " -- JohnDoe0007 ( talk) 13:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Given the fact that Paris is the "jazz capital" of Europe, there is no reason why a largely recognized French musician such as fr:Magic Malik shouldn't be included. 87.69.131.103 ( talk) 19:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
This section is out of control. What are the criteria for being placed on this list? -- Onorem ♠ Dil 22:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
William Kincaid's name is linked to an article for an artist, not the flutist mentioned here. Can I correct this error, or is someone else responsible? Thanks! COflutist ( talk) 04:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Though I have long heard the pronunciation; I had been led to believe that 'flutist' was incorrect. After having read the Wikipedia info, I continue to prefer flautist.. I believe that in musical academia this preference is also shared. Not only is this because of my experience; it is due to the prolific use of the Italian language as musical terminology. Of course this principle doesn't apply to all the musical instruments; but the bastardization of English by Americans often robs the language of its color. In the languages of art disciplines; I feel that the flowery options are often more appealing;and thus, often more appropriate. Fredbarr3519 ( talk) 14:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC) Fred Barr
I have merged "Flutist" and "List of flautists"; selected "flutist" over "flautist" as it is the older term, and the one preferred by the cited musicians in "Flautist". There were a number of additional (small) improvements, mainly to style an picture & TOC placement.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 20:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Раціональне анархіст, open a new section at the bottom of this page and paste the following:
{{subst:requested move|Flutist|reason=Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please present Google Books or Google News Archive results before providing other web results. Do not sign this.}}
Remove the nowiki tags and everything after the "reason=". Replace that with your explanation as to why it should be moved. The full explanation is at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting potentially controversial moves. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Regarding this, I thought I'd link a picture demonstrating the "huge white square" problem.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 06:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Flautist → Flutist – At present, the Flautist article is wholly given over to quotations as to why various notables dislike "flautist" (the current article name) and prefer "flutist" (presently redirecting to the former). Subsequent to a successful move, a merger will be initiated to incorporate material presently residing on List of flautists. The resulting Flutist would then approximate the format of Pianist (essentially an umbrella list article without "List of..." in the title). Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 00:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
"Pages in the category namespace can be moved but in a non-automated way which requires considerable post-move cleanup. This is a time-consuming process and should only be done if there is a very good reason to do so. In addition to gaining consensus for a category move, the move should be investigated and planned out before it is initiated... After the category page is moved, all pages in the original category must be updated to the new category. Do not begin to move a category if you are not sure you can complete this process."
"When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. With few exceptions (e.g. when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change. When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default... An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another."
Alternative proposal: For now, leave
Leave allthe Flautist categories & lists as they are; re-direct both Flutist & Flautist to Flute; and summarizeputthe "Flutist versus Flautist" material there within the Etymologyas a newsection. — Patrug ( talk) 09:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)10:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
From Patrug's 09:33, 29 December 2014 reply in the preceding section, I'm ceding that it is unlikely that the present article will be renamed. However, I do still feel strongly that the article serves no purpose other than as a repository for the unattractive "vs." ramble, and is thus decidedly unencyclopedic compared to, say, Pianist. Therefore, without unduly annoying everyone with another garish template, I'd like to gauge support for merging the List article into this one, and greatly trimming (or removing entirely) "vs.", with the result being approximately similar to Pianist.-- Раціональне анархіст ( talk) 18:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"Standard practice is to entitle list articles as List of ___ (for example list of Xs)."
Assuming we go ahead and merge this woe-begotten Flautist stub into Flute#Etymology, here's a first attempt at distilling the "long rant" into a simple paragraph:
Today, a musician who plays any instrument in the flute family can be called a flutist (pronounced "FLEW-tist", most common in the US), [1] or flautist (pronounced "FLAW-tist", most common in the UK), [2] or simply a flute player (more neutrally). Flutist dates back to at least 1603, the earliest quote cited by the Oxford English Dictionary. Flautist was used in 1860 by Nathaniel Hawthorne in The Marble Faun, after being adopted during the 18th century from Italy (flautista, itself from flauto), like many musical terms in England since the Italian Renaissance. Other English terms, now virtually obsolete, are fluter (15th–19th centuries) [3] [4] [5] and flutenist (17th–18th centuries). [6] [7]
Other English terms wereThe current English terms were preceded byflutenist (c.1700) andeven earlier byfluter (c.1400).
- ^ "Flutist". Oxford English Dictionary (American English). Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Flautist". Oxford English Dictionary (British & World English). Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Fluter (c.1400)". Oxford English Dictionary.
- ^ "Fluter". Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Fluter". Random House Dictionary and Collins English Dictionary. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ "Flutenist". The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
- ^ Smith, Fenwick. "Is it flutist or flautist?". Archived from the original on 16 January 2014. Retrieved 5 January 2015.
What do people think — too short? too long? Further edits welcome, along with improved citations. — Patrug ( talk) 14:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Rhod, I missed the 1700 vs. 1603 timing. The revision above should be better. The leading "Today" will clarify the transition from the first paragraph of Flute#Etymology, which mostly deals with the Middle Ages. — Patrug ( talk) 04:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Jerome. I was indeed planning to keep the current lede material in Flute (perhaps compressed to one sentence with no citations, ending: "... less commonly, a fluter or flutenist."), and use the Etymology section to insert the more-detailed paragraph above (which I've tweaked again to incorporate your Comment and the key dictionary links relocated from the lede). Hope this helps. — Patrug ( talk) 05:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - I oppose the merger of Flautist into Flute#Etymology in preference to the alternative described in the previous section (the Vs. section can be merged away, while the List article is merged into this article, which remains). Pax 15:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Conclusion: After more than two weeks of discussion above, it's clear that we have a consensus on all the key points. All the relevant comments (starting with Stan in 2007, and now Patrug, Ajax, Rhod, Jerome, Necro) and all the relevant guidelines ( WP:MOVE, WP:RETAIN, WP:TITLE, WP:LISTNAME, collectively representing hundreds of experienced editors & admins) support the 12/29/2014 Alternative proposal above, rather than the disruptive 12/22/2014 edits and 12/25/2014 proposal and 12/29/2014 variant (all from Pax = Раціональне анархіст = Rational Anarchist) that would empty List of flautists. When Pax appealed for "naming conformity" with Pianists, we produced dozens of counter-examples comprising "Lists of" virtually every other important instrument. When Pax ignored this and appealed instead for "an official encyclopedia preference", we found the unambiguous "List of" guideline from WP:LISTNAME. It shouldn't require an outside admin to confirm the uncontroversial & unanimous consensus against Pax's endless arguments. Enough already. I've just implemented the consensus solution, following WP:MERGETEXT, and we can continue fine-tuning the dictionary summaries in the lede & Etymology sections of Flute. Sincere thanks to all contributors. — Patrug ( talk) 05:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)