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I'm doing a revert. Why? Because I put up a fact about something that is 'frequently alleged' and it was removed as 'imperialist nonsense'. OK, this allegation might be nonsense, but it is a widely held belief - I had never heard any other story about the origin of the Israeli flag until reading this entry. Having read the entry, it seems a more plausible story, but the other history is so prevalent in my experience, I feel there ought to be a note about it-- XmarkX 09:06, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cut a fair amount of stuff that had nothing to do with the claim that the stripes on the flag represent territorial ambitions and everything to do with claims regarding those territorial ambitions themselves. — Charles P._ (Mirv) 01:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to have the alternate lighter colorization of the flag on this page? Nothing else links to it and it doesn't seem incredibly relevant. If we decide we want it, it should just be an altered version of the regular flag SVG image, so we avoid superfluous PNGs. Makaristos 07:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
In further discussion of the "nile to euphrades" debate, I'm wondering if anyone knows the origin of the two stripes on the tallit which Israel's flag was based on in the modern (maybe post-modern?) era. If the Torah commands that only one thread of the tallit be dyed, how exactly did it move to two once the snail died out? Are there any records? This might help settle the deabte over the meaning of the flag... Slubin 22:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Slubin
"The Israelites used an indigo colored dye called tekhelet; this dye is now believed to have been made from the snail murex trunculus. This dye was very important in both Jewish and non-Jewish cultures of this time, and was used by royalty and the upper class in dyeing their clothing, sheets, curtains, etc. (The dye from a related snail can be processed to form Tyrian purple called argaman.)" this is still a matter of intense debate. Furthermore the view that the source of the dye is murex Trunculus is one held by extreemist zionists only.
I knew nothing of this discussion about the flag of Israel, but when I saw "geographical claim" and "two blue lines", I knew immediately what it was about.
That's because the claim "From the Nile to the Euphrates" is not some kind of paranoia by Arafat, it's central to Zionism.
It's in the Bible, God promises Abraham in Genesis 15:18 "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates.". Moses promises his descendants in Deuteronomy 11:24 that "every place where you set the soles of your feet shall be yours. Your borders shall run from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea."
It's there at the beginning of Zionism - in 1898, Theodore Herzl (founder of Zionism) plans to ask the Ottoman sultan for a territory stretching from the Egyptian frontier to the Euphrates. Theodor Herzl and Isidore Bodenheimer regularily spoke of Jewish settlement in "Palestine and Syria,". So did the Jewish National Fund and the Zionist Congress. In 1902, Herzl spoke of settling Jews in Mesopotamia.
Jabotinsky is quoted in 1935 saying "We want a Jewish Empire", David Ben-Gurion in 1954 "the border of Israel will be where the army takes it", Moshe Dayan spoke of expansion to Babylon and the Euphrates after 1967.
Menachem Begin reminded Israelis that the Bible says the Israeli state will include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait.
And some Western sources were open about the same thing, eg 1910 "the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the Jews to build Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel."
I don't know how to word the section in this article with a NPOV, but the topic cannot possibly be ignored!
PalestineRemembered 10:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Your erudition and logic is impeccable. However, just because it's not (or may not) be true doesn't mean that the encyclopedia shouldn't mention it. PalestineRemembered 07:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Trying to cut through all the abstract verbiage to some concrete information, there were some extremist Jabotinskyites in the 1930's who sporadically used "from the Nile to the Euphrates" as a slogan, but in the vast majority of cases when "from the Nile to the Euphrates" has been used in a political context, it has been used by non-Jews who attribute expansionist conspiracy plots and schemes to Jews. In any case, the Zionist flag was adopted before 1900 -- and those who really study the Bible are aware that nehar mitsrayim in Genesis 15:18 in fact does not even mean the Nile in the first place... AnonMoos 03:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reviewed the "Nile to Euphrates" section with a critical eye, and discovered serious errors that should be removed or corrected.
Please offer opinions regarding these edit proposals. - Samuel Erau 05:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone like to comment seriously on my edit proposals? - Samuel Erau 06:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The use of religious symbols (the Star of David in this case) goes against the separation of church and state concept.
Are you kidding ? There are crosses on just about every European flag - Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Finland, England, United Kingdom and so on. Amoruso 12:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Any state that supports the separation of church and state should remove religious symbols from their flags. The same goes for Israel, but it appears they believe religion and religious rituals should be reflected in law. -- 00:26, 19 November 2006 141.213.196.222
Thanks AnonMoos. Indeed it's based on Christian crosses such as the Scotland cross in its flag - the cross of the Christian martyr Saint Andrew, the Christian St. Patrick's Cross of kingdom of Ireland and the familiar Saint George Cross, the English flag. It doesn't get any more christian than that. I've never heard any British Jew complain about the flag. Also, Palestineremembered is having some trouble understanding WP:NOT. We should help him by removing his political arguments from talk pages until he understands. Amoruso 18:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know of any alterntive proposals for the flag of Israel? The article states that these exist but does not back it up with any external links or references. What, if any, are they? Makaristos 22:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know of any alternative proposals but the Menorah - the 7-branched candelabra - would be a good one.
I'm posting this new section into the article, but also placing it here. Editors dedicated to working within WP:NPOV and WP:RS will probably seek to improve my work, but the material itself will still be visible to them and available here. Some of the following is paraphrased from [2].
Many people in the Middle East (and others critical of Israel) believe that the two blue lines of the flag of Israel were put there to symbolise the two rivers, the Nile and the Euphrates. The following documents some of the reasons why they would believe this, though none of it indicates that the flag was actually designed for this purpose.
Logical fallacy. "I" would also love if the country was "From the Nile to the Euphrates" - what does it mean ? Did I design the flag ? Does this say anything about the flag ? I like cheerios. That means my round table in the living room was designed as a cheerios in purpose ? this is not a debate whether Israel is evil, it's not a debate whether Israel wants to expand its territories, it's a debate what the flag actually is. Proving that Israel wants to expand its border "From the Nile to the Euphrates" has nothing to do with the flag. I'm sure you can understand it, it's pretty basic in logics. It's basically like bringing citations that Islam is envy of Judaism and therefore has its flag in Green, or that two red lines in a flag depict two veins of blood because of the cruel nature of the state. It's all very creative, but useless. If you had a citation that says the flag represents it by those "zionists" it will make sense. Since you obviously understand it from what you wrote, I fail to see why you want that section included here - it will seem not only undue weight but just weirdness. Amoruso 23:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
You've reverted a long, carefully written and well-sourced edit - would you care to say if there is anything in there that does not belong?
You've reverted this article, please tell me which parts you think don't belong.
Do the two blue lines represent "Nile to Euphrates" territorial ambitions? Many people in the Middle East (and perhaps some elsewhere) are convinced that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, and that the Zionists wished/wish Israel to expand to these rivers.
The following quotes are some of the reasons why they would believe this. None of these clips indicate that the flag was actually designed for this purpose, nor that Israel has such a "national intent".
1. God promised Abraham (Genesis 15:18): "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates". ("River of Egypt" may not be the Nile, see below). 2. Moses promises his descendants (Deuteronomy 11:24): "every place where you set the soles of your feet shall be yours. Your borders shall run from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea." 3. In 1898, Theodore Herzl (founder of Zionism) planned to ask the Ottoman sultan for a territory stretching from the Egyptian frontier to the Euphrates. Theodor Herzl and Isidore Bodenheimer regularily spoke of Jewish settlement in "Palestine and Syria,". So did the Jewish National Fund and the Zionist Congress. In 1902, Herzl spoke of settling Jews in Mesopotamia [7]. Note that, at this stage, colonising Uganda, Madagascar or Argentina were under consideration, so not all these claims necessarily refer to an enormous Israel. 4. Complete Diaries, Vol. II. p. 711, Theodore Herzl, says that the area of the Jewish State stretches: "From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates." [1]. (Brook of Egypt and other sources imply that this passage refers to a water-course near the Nile, within modern Egypt, and not the Nile itself) 5. British ambassador in Istanbul, Gerard Lowther, in 1910 "the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the Jews to build Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel."[8] 6. At least one of the inter-war founding Zionists intended an Israel bigger than the one we know. Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of Revisionist Zionism, precursor of Likud) was quoted in 1935 saying "We want a Jewish Empire" [9]. 7. Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared in his testimony to the UN Special Committee of Enquiry on 9 July 1947: "The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon." [2] 8. David Ben-Gurion in 1954 "the border of Israel will be where the army takes it", [3] in answer to "Why does Israel not have a constitution?". 9. According to the then President of Syria, Hafiz al-Asad, the Israeli general and Defense Minister Moshe Dayan visited the Golan Heights shortly after its capture by Israel in 1967 and announced that "the past generation established Israel within its 1948 borders; and you have to establish a Greater Israel from the Niles to the Euphrates."[10]. (Assad died in 2000 after 30 years in power - his informant was the author, Polish Jew Robert Gessner, referenced above at #6). 22 years later, Yitzhak Shamir called Asad's talk on the subject "sheer nonsense." Global Security. 10. Sa'd al-Bazzaz in his book "Gulf War: The Israeli Connection" [11] claimed something along the same lines: "We have taken Jerusalem .... and are now on our way to Yathrib [Medina] and Babylon". (Cities in Saudi Arabia and Iraq that once had significant Jewish populations). 11. Menachem Begin (Israeli Prime Minister 1977-1983) was quoted by American television evangelist Jerry Falwell as saying that the Bible predicts the Israeli state will eventually include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait.[12].
A further catalogue of Zionist and Israeli statements on this topic appear in the (out of print) book by Ass'ad Razzouq, Greater Israel: A Study in Zionist Expansionist Thought (Beirut: Palestine Liberation Organization Research Center, 1970), especially pp. 83, 87-90, 92, 96-97, 99-103, 144-45, 167-69, 178-81, 187, 209, 212-14, 230, 234, 240, 243-45, 249-52, 264, 278-82, 286, as well as Maps 3 and 4. (reference provided by the pro-Zionist commentator Daniel Pipes [4]).
The claim that Zionists still want "From the Nile to the Euphrates" first came to the attention of many people when Yasser Arafat stated it in an interview in a 1988 Playboy Interview Yasir Arafat. Several times in 1990 (including in a speech to the United Nations General Assembly in Switzerland) Arafat produced from his pocket a new Israeli coin, a 10 agora piece, claiming it showed a map of of "Greater Israel" (it doesn't) and that there'd been an inscription to "From the Nile to the Euphrates" in the Knesset for many years (there hadn't). See also: [13] and [14]
Other accusers of Israel simply make unsourced statements such as this one at: MediaMonitors reprint "America-firster" John Henshaw 1968:
"By guile, treachery and bloodletting, the Zionists plot to annex all of Jordan, virtually all of Syria, half of Iraq and a large part of Saudi Arabia and all of the rich cotton lands of the Nile Valley. It would be a simpler matter then to grab Yemen, Aden, Muscat, Qatar and Oman with their rich oil development. Israel is already well advanced in the development of its first nuclear warhead".
(There is more, which I think I only lightly editted, not changed).
If you've got no genuine objection to this material, then the honourable thing would be for you to put it back. -- 15:32, 19 November 2006 User:PalestineRemembered
Every Israeli could want these borders and it will still mean nothing in relation to the flag's design. What you need is to have a source of a Jewish leader/person which says that the flag was designed for this purpose. There are none like that - what does it tell you ? It's all a big hush conspiracy that nobody even suggested the idea ? Ever ? Btw, not even in the original talit - see above - such an explanation was never ever given by any Jewish figure. That's why the whole section should be trimmed as much as possible and there's no place to talk about these actual borders because it's a different issue. It's quite a basic logical fact to grasp. I do believe that if I were drawing two rivers, I would definitely use curly or squiggly lines btw :) Amoruso 17:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC) .
PR, if a non Jewish person was involed in creating the design for the flag etc or if he has testimonies regarding such a design then he can also be quoted of course, it's not the jewish nature that's important of course. Amoruso 22:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I could not link to Wikipedia's article that the term subjective validation redirects to. I chose to link it to an article that fairly explains the concept before distracting the reader with paranormal or occult topics, because those very distracting topics are not necessary for understanding subjective validation as it applies to interpretation of the Israeli flag. If someone would write a specific Wikipedia article for subjective validation in general, that replaces the current redirect for it, that would probably (depending on its quality) be a good reason for this article to link to it. The Forer effect is too specific of a form of subjective validation for it to apply in this context. - Samuel Erau 09:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, that's another piece of propaganda nonsense which is rebutted at article 10 Agorot controversy. AnonMoos 15:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised there is no mention that the Nazis forced Jews under their jurisdiction to wear 6-pointed stars. Although the 6-pointed star was a Jewish symbol of choice long before that time, its use on the flag within three years of World War II is presumably in part a statement of defiance that the Nazi genocide failed? Have we minutes of the meetings that chose the flag? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.143.207 ( talk • contribs).
Can users here please check the edits made by John Guy Royers and 165.155.200.143? The anonymous IP places a Nazi flag on the page to replace the Flag of Israel and then FOUR MINUTES later John Guy Royers comes along, addes flame-baitish/trollish comments/edits regarding Israel's supposed imperialism and allusions to Iran... Mind you he did this while the Nazi flag was still on the page. I caught this, reverted his edits, warned him, and John Guy Royers then complains and even heads over to the WP:AN to complain? This all smells funny. The user suddenly shows up 4 minutes after someone else vandalizing? Could it be the same person, just one edit made while not logged in? Also, what Wiki user who is less than 24 hours old knows about the WP:AN? Let alone what it does. Keep your eyes peeled and please watch out for this person. -- BaseballDetective 15:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
i dont really have any sources for this... but on my experience, when i get to talk with lots of Arab Egyptians i know, living in Cairo they believe the story of the Nile to el Furat issue, and they prove it by Israel's Embassy in Egypt being on the West side of the Nile rather then on the East Bank like most embassies in Cairo found in Garden City and Zamalek... known for hosting Embassies of USA, Canada, UK, China, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Austria, Eastern Block states, and most African and Latin American Embassies in Cairo and many others... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:JB recruitment poster Salvation and Vengeance.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Image:JB HQ.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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For the Israel stamp collectors and lovers, there is no article yet for Postage stamps and postal history of Israel (part of Category:Postal history by country) that would have so many Jewish themes. Feel free to go ahead and start it. (See the other country's in Category:Postage stamps by country that have theirs.) Nothing for Israel on Category:Postage stamps by country neither on List of country articles containing postal sections nor on List of philatelic bureaus. (but just a teeny note on Israel at Compendium of postage stamp issuers (Io - Iz).) This is truly a great shame and pity because Israel, and before that when it was the British Mandate produced and continues to issue the most beautiful and extensive stamps by any country. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 11:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The article gives Genesis 15:18 as a source for "land promised to the Jews by God" - but that passage doesn't specify Jews, merely descendents of Abraham. According to our article on Ishmael, son of Abraham, "Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people."
I can't see how Gen 15:18 promises this land to Jews specifically. The article shouldn't say that it does. Evercat ( talk) 23:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Challenge to Validity According to the Brittanica the flag was originally designed by Jacob Askowith and his son Charles. First displayed July 21, 1891. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quidproquo2004 ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The original designer is not Morris Harris, but Jacob Askowith of Brookline, Massachusetts. This matter should be looked into. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quidproquo2004 ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Could it be possible that the Israel flag is also influenced by the Karamanoğlu flag (1250 – 1487)? as Turks and Jews have lived together for centuries.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum, but I wanted to add one more point that nobody has mentioned. While it is true that Biblical Judaism and the ancient Kingdom of Israel did exist from the Nile to the Euphrates and some right-wing Zionists advocated for the creation of a State of Israel from those geographical borders, this is not the ideology of the mainstream of the Jewish people or of Israeli society. Once the State of Israel was established according to the 1949 borders most people in Israel accepted this reality. Through subsequent wars the territories of Israel expanded, but those wars in which Israel gained territorial expansion were not started by Israel herself. Regardless, from 1949 onwards those Jews who advocated for a State of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates have been the most radical and right-wing Jews in the State. Benjamin Netanyahu, current leader of the right-wing Likud political party, pulled Israeli presence out of the Biblical city of Hebron in 1997. Ariel Sharon, at the time leader of the right-wing Likud political party, pulled Israeli civilian and military presence out of the Gaza strip in 2005. These moves by Israeli politicians do not represent an ideology of territorial expansion in the region. While it is true that Israeli society, just like an other society has extremists, those extremists are the ones who believe that Israel should exist from the Nile to the Euphrates and in order to achieve this they build settlements in the West Bank; however those extremists don't have any real power in Israeli society. In order to alleviate some of this extreme political activity, the Israeli government has made it illegal to build new settlements in the West Bank and do force some to be dismantled, though not all of them.
Finally in response to a question posed by Slubin on August 19 2006, he asked:
"[What are the] origins of the two stripes on the tallit... If the Torah commands that only one thread of the tallit be dyed, how exactly did it move to two once the snail died out?"
This needs to be cleared up. A Tallit is a garment that Jews wear over their shirts when they pray. It is (sort-of) in the shape of a flag, rectangular with four corners and a hole in the middle for the head. On each of the four corners there are fringes and the commandment to wear tekhelet (blue fringe) is for these fringes on the corners of the tallit, not on the actual garment itself. The blue lines on the garment is a decoration that is not commanded. However, when you put the tallit on, those four corners turn in to two and you have blue fringes on both your right side and your left side. Perhaps the decoration of two blue bars on the white background means each side of your body that the blue fringe is found, the right and the left, amongst the other white fringes. I haven't been able to find any sources for this and I'm not sure if there are any since this is such an ancient custom. In Numbers 15:37-41 it says
God said to Moses, saying: 'Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them that they shall make themselves tzitzis on the corners of their garments, throughout the generations. And they shall place upon the tzitzis of each corner a thread of turquoise wool (tekhelet). It shall constitute tzitzis for you, that you may see it and remember all the commandments of Hashem which you stray. So that you may remember and perform all My commandments and be holy to your God. I am Hashem, your God, Who has removed you from the land of Egypt to be a God unto you; I am Hashem your God.
The commandment to wear the blue fringes has nothing to do with taking the land from the Nile to the Euphrates but to remember God and to perform all of His commandments. Additionally in the Torah it says Tzitzit, which refers specifically to the fringes themselves. Since we don't wear four cornered garments today we therefore wear a tallit, a special four cornered prayer shawl, that allows us to wear the tzitzit when we pray. Some Jews even wear a form of this four cornered garment with tzitzit under their clothes at all times, not just during prayer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shuki18 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just received a small book from the Israeli Embassy in the USA "Symbols of the State of Israel" yesterday in the mail. In their section about the flag, they specifically defined the blue shade as " Yale Blue." According to the school this was named after, Yale University, the shades are defined at http://www.yale.edu/printer/identity/yaleblue.html#yaleblue The actual specifications are correct, though the guide the Israelis gave me was small (15 cm/6" white border at the top and bottom and the Star of David is 69 cm/27.6" in size). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there a historian who can tell us the OFFICIAL proportions of the flag of the community of israel?? Some sources say 2:3 and others 8:11. The PROPORTION of the size of the triangles to the overall size of the flag is likewise, missing from these articles. The ration of the size of the triangles to the whole flag, and also the ration of thickness of blue-bands is very important useful information that needs to be researched and put into this article. 74.65.100.103 ( talk) 16:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I have made two changes to make this section flow better and be more encyclopedic.
I've tagged a statement in this section as potential original research. It's undoubtedly true that other nations have flags with Christian or Islamic symbols, but unless a reliable source has made this defense of the Star of David on this flag, it's original research on our part. Alternatively, remove the section; it's a rather silly complaint. -- BDD ( talk) 20:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this section still needs some work. This statement, in particular, has a problem:
For example, Muslim symbols are on the flags of Algeria, Turkey, and Pakistan
I've viewed pictures of these flags and while I do see that they contain the star and crescent symbol, I've been led to believe that these aren't Muslim symbols but rather the logo of the Ottoman Empire. Do Muslims generally feel that the star and crescent is a legitimate symbol representing Islam? — Ke6jjj ( talk) 21:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
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I have always thought that was what the two blue stripes represented, the explantion offered does seem more spiritual though. I can only think why the other explanation seemed plausible is because of Jewish presence in these areas long ago and what exactly constitutes the promised land. so is that the common consensus among Israelis of what the stripes represent just the spiritual colour? Zakaria mohyeldin 09:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
'It's a popular conspiracy' should surely read 'It's a popular conspiracy theory'! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Since myth is more accurate than conspiracy theory I've changed the word. Mcljlm ( talk) 17:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
After first replacing the Times of Israel reference with its JTA source and gilt letters with blue Hebrew letters I found the article by Askowith's daughter and quote from his son and then the Charles Reznikoff article. Details below:
Previously the flag was described as having gilt letters but neither the JTA nor the TOI mention gilt: "It bore striking similarities to today’s Israeli flag — except for the fact that the Star of David in the middle contained the word “Maccabee” in Hebrew letters". https://www.jta.org/2016/12/15/life-religion/how-israel-can-trace-its-flags-roots-to-boston; http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-israel-can-trace-its-flags-roots-to-boston-1891/. See the article by Askowith's daughter: "In the center of the latter was painted in blue the Hebrew word מכבי (Maccabee)" The First Zionist Flag by Dora Askowith in Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Jan., 1944), pp. 55-57 https://www.jstor.org/stable/4464558?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents. Not that "Charles Askowith recounts that he painted this flag, known at that time as the “Flag of Judah,” according to his father’s specifications." in American Jews and the flag of Israel by Jonathan D. Sarna https://www.brandeis.edu/hornstein/sarna/americanjewishcultureandscholarship/american-jews-flag-israel-sarna.pdf based on Jewish Advocate (June 26, 1952), D9. See also "The flag had two horizontal blue stripes painted on a white cloth about a yard long; between the stripes was the “Shield of David” and in the center of the “Shield” the Hebrew letters for “Maccabee,” also painted in blue." in From the American Scene: Boston’s Jewish Community: Earlier Days by Charles Reznikoff, Commentary May 1953 https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/from-the-american-scene-bostons-jewish-community-earlier-days/. Mcljlm ( talk) 18:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Flag of Israel has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Hexagram" to "Star of david" Adude3457 ( talk) 23:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
This seems to be of dubious relevance and almost argumentative. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.105.253 ( talk) 12:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
The triangles look equilateral. The star looks six-rotationally symmetric.
The measurements have each triangle’s height as same size as its base, even though this is narrower than equilateral by a factor of ½√3 ≈ 0.866. What gives? JDAWiseman ( talk) 19:48, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
If the diameter is 13.2, then the length of 9.9 is incorrect. It should be 9*1.1*2/√3 ~ 11.43 Ebwiki21 ( talk) 15:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the measurement of 9.9 at File:Construction sheet of Flag of Israel Equilateral Magen David.svg is incorrect, it should be 11.4 Xqgex ( talk) 13:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The article states in the criticism section - "However, many other nations have religiously exclusive symbols on their flags as well. For example, Muslim symbols are on the flags of Algeria, Turkey, and Pakistan among others, while Christian symbols are on the flags of the Nordic countries, Greece, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom". This seems problematic as it takes a certain pov on the issue but not only that the citation is itself problematic. If you examine the citation you'll see it is just a link to an article that details religious flag symbolism but this is not placed within the context of the discussions of criticism of the Israeli flag. In other words it is original research to include this without a citation placing this within the context of criticism of the flag. 80.111.17.229 ( talk) 08:54, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
As was pointed out back in 2020, there is an error with one of the dimensions in
File:Construction_sheet_of_Flag_of_Israel_Equilateral_Magen_David.svg. It could be fixed, but the construction would still not match
File:Flag of Israel.svg because there is mismatch in the diameter of the star.
When drawing the flag, there are three variants to choose from:
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I'm doing a revert. Why? Because I put up a fact about something that is 'frequently alleged' and it was removed as 'imperialist nonsense'. OK, this allegation might be nonsense, but it is a widely held belief - I had never heard any other story about the origin of the Israeli flag until reading this entry. Having read the entry, it seems a more plausible story, but the other history is so prevalent in my experience, I feel there ought to be a note about it-- XmarkX 09:06, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cut a fair amount of stuff that had nothing to do with the claim that the stripes on the flag represent territorial ambitions and everything to do with claims regarding those territorial ambitions themselves. — Charles P._ (Mirv) 01:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to have the alternate lighter colorization of the flag on this page? Nothing else links to it and it doesn't seem incredibly relevant. If we decide we want it, it should just be an altered version of the regular flag SVG image, so we avoid superfluous PNGs. Makaristos 07:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
In further discussion of the "nile to euphrades" debate, I'm wondering if anyone knows the origin of the two stripes on the tallit which Israel's flag was based on in the modern (maybe post-modern?) era. If the Torah commands that only one thread of the tallit be dyed, how exactly did it move to two once the snail died out? Are there any records? This might help settle the deabte over the meaning of the flag... Slubin 22:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Slubin
"The Israelites used an indigo colored dye called tekhelet; this dye is now believed to have been made from the snail murex trunculus. This dye was very important in both Jewish and non-Jewish cultures of this time, and was used by royalty and the upper class in dyeing their clothing, sheets, curtains, etc. (The dye from a related snail can be processed to form Tyrian purple called argaman.)" this is still a matter of intense debate. Furthermore the view that the source of the dye is murex Trunculus is one held by extreemist zionists only.
I knew nothing of this discussion about the flag of Israel, but when I saw "geographical claim" and "two blue lines", I knew immediately what it was about.
That's because the claim "From the Nile to the Euphrates" is not some kind of paranoia by Arafat, it's central to Zionism.
It's in the Bible, God promises Abraham in Genesis 15:18 "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates.". Moses promises his descendants in Deuteronomy 11:24 that "every place where you set the soles of your feet shall be yours. Your borders shall run from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea."
It's there at the beginning of Zionism - in 1898, Theodore Herzl (founder of Zionism) plans to ask the Ottoman sultan for a territory stretching from the Egyptian frontier to the Euphrates. Theodor Herzl and Isidore Bodenheimer regularily spoke of Jewish settlement in "Palestine and Syria,". So did the Jewish National Fund and the Zionist Congress. In 1902, Herzl spoke of settling Jews in Mesopotamia.
Jabotinsky is quoted in 1935 saying "We want a Jewish Empire", David Ben-Gurion in 1954 "the border of Israel will be where the army takes it", Moshe Dayan spoke of expansion to Babylon and the Euphrates after 1967.
Menachem Begin reminded Israelis that the Bible says the Israeli state will include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait.
And some Western sources were open about the same thing, eg 1910 "the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the Jews to build Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel."
I don't know how to word the section in this article with a NPOV, but the topic cannot possibly be ignored!
PalestineRemembered 10:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Your erudition and logic is impeccable. However, just because it's not (or may not) be true doesn't mean that the encyclopedia shouldn't mention it. PalestineRemembered 07:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Trying to cut through all the abstract verbiage to some concrete information, there were some extremist Jabotinskyites in the 1930's who sporadically used "from the Nile to the Euphrates" as a slogan, but in the vast majority of cases when "from the Nile to the Euphrates" has been used in a political context, it has been used by non-Jews who attribute expansionist conspiracy plots and schemes to Jews. In any case, the Zionist flag was adopted before 1900 -- and those who really study the Bible are aware that nehar mitsrayim in Genesis 15:18 in fact does not even mean the Nile in the first place... AnonMoos 03:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reviewed the "Nile to Euphrates" section with a critical eye, and discovered serious errors that should be removed or corrected.
Please offer opinions regarding these edit proposals. - Samuel Erau 05:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone like to comment seriously on my edit proposals? - Samuel Erau 06:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The use of religious symbols (the Star of David in this case) goes against the separation of church and state concept.
Are you kidding ? There are crosses on just about every European flag - Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Finland, England, United Kingdom and so on. Amoruso 12:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Any state that supports the separation of church and state should remove religious symbols from their flags. The same goes for Israel, but it appears they believe religion and religious rituals should be reflected in law. -- 00:26, 19 November 2006 141.213.196.222
Thanks AnonMoos. Indeed it's based on Christian crosses such as the Scotland cross in its flag - the cross of the Christian martyr Saint Andrew, the Christian St. Patrick's Cross of kingdom of Ireland and the familiar Saint George Cross, the English flag. It doesn't get any more christian than that. I've never heard any British Jew complain about the flag. Also, Palestineremembered is having some trouble understanding WP:NOT. We should help him by removing his political arguments from talk pages until he understands. Amoruso 18:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know of any alterntive proposals for the flag of Israel? The article states that these exist but does not back it up with any external links or references. What, if any, are they? Makaristos 22:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know of any alternative proposals but the Menorah - the 7-branched candelabra - would be a good one.
I'm posting this new section into the article, but also placing it here. Editors dedicated to working within WP:NPOV and WP:RS will probably seek to improve my work, but the material itself will still be visible to them and available here. Some of the following is paraphrased from [2].
Many people in the Middle East (and others critical of Israel) believe that the two blue lines of the flag of Israel were put there to symbolise the two rivers, the Nile and the Euphrates. The following documents some of the reasons why they would believe this, though none of it indicates that the flag was actually designed for this purpose.
Logical fallacy. "I" would also love if the country was "From the Nile to the Euphrates" - what does it mean ? Did I design the flag ? Does this say anything about the flag ? I like cheerios. That means my round table in the living room was designed as a cheerios in purpose ? this is not a debate whether Israel is evil, it's not a debate whether Israel wants to expand its territories, it's a debate what the flag actually is. Proving that Israel wants to expand its border "From the Nile to the Euphrates" has nothing to do with the flag. I'm sure you can understand it, it's pretty basic in logics. It's basically like bringing citations that Islam is envy of Judaism and therefore has its flag in Green, or that two red lines in a flag depict two veins of blood because of the cruel nature of the state. It's all very creative, but useless. If you had a citation that says the flag represents it by those "zionists" it will make sense. Since you obviously understand it from what you wrote, I fail to see why you want that section included here - it will seem not only undue weight but just weirdness. Amoruso 23:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
You've reverted a long, carefully written and well-sourced edit - would you care to say if there is anything in there that does not belong?
You've reverted this article, please tell me which parts you think don't belong.
Do the two blue lines represent "Nile to Euphrates" territorial ambitions? Many people in the Middle East (and perhaps some elsewhere) are convinced that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, and that the Zionists wished/wish Israel to expand to these rivers.
The following quotes are some of the reasons why they would believe this. None of these clips indicate that the flag was actually designed for this purpose, nor that Israel has such a "national intent".
1. God promised Abraham (Genesis 15:18): "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates". ("River of Egypt" may not be the Nile, see below). 2. Moses promises his descendants (Deuteronomy 11:24): "every place where you set the soles of your feet shall be yours. Your borders shall run from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea." 3. In 1898, Theodore Herzl (founder of Zionism) planned to ask the Ottoman sultan for a territory stretching from the Egyptian frontier to the Euphrates. Theodor Herzl and Isidore Bodenheimer regularily spoke of Jewish settlement in "Palestine and Syria,". So did the Jewish National Fund and the Zionist Congress. In 1902, Herzl spoke of settling Jews in Mesopotamia [7]. Note that, at this stage, colonising Uganda, Madagascar or Argentina were under consideration, so not all these claims necessarily refer to an enormous Israel. 4. Complete Diaries, Vol. II. p. 711, Theodore Herzl, says that the area of the Jewish State stretches: "From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates." [1]. (Brook of Egypt and other sources imply that this passage refers to a water-course near the Nile, within modern Egypt, and not the Nile itself) 5. British ambassador in Istanbul, Gerard Lowther, in 1910 "the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the Jews to build Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel."[8] 6. At least one of the inter-war founding Zionists intended an Israel bigger than the one we know. Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of Revisionist Zionism, precursor of Likud) was quoted in 1935 saying "We want a Jewish Empire" [9]. 7. Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared in his testimony to the UN Special Committee of Enquiry on 9 July 1947: "The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon." [2] 8. David Ben-Gurion in 1954 "the border of Israel will be where the army takes it", [3] in answer to "Why does Israel not have a constitution?". 9. According to the then President of Syria, Hafiz al-Asad, the Israeli general and Defense Minister Moshe Dayan visited the Golan Heights shortly after its capture by Israel in 1967 and announced that "the past generation established Israel within its 1948 borders; and you have to establish a Greater Israel from the Niles to the Euphrates."[10]. (Assad died in 2000 after 30 years in power - his informant was the author, Polish Jew Robert Gessner, referenced above at #6). 22 years later, Yitzhak Shamir called Asad's talk on the subject "sheer nonsense." Global Security. 10. Sa'd al-Bazzaz in his book "Gulf War: The Israeli Connection" [11] claimed something along the same lines: "We have taken Jerusalem .... and are now on our way to Yathrib [Medina] and Babylon". (Cities in Saudi Arabia and Iraq that once had significant Jewish populations). 11. Menachem Begin (Israeli Prime Minister 1977-1983) was quoted by American television evangelist Jerry Falwell as saying that the Bible predicts the Israeli state will eventually include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait.[12].
A further catalogue of Zionist and Israeli statements on this topic appear in the (out of print) book by Ass'ad Razzouq, Greater Israel: A Study in Zionist Expansionist Thought (Beirut: Palestine Liberation Organization Research Center, 1970), especially pp. 83, 87-90, 92, 96-97, 99-103, 144-45, 167-69, 178-81, 187, 209, 212-14, 230, 234, 240, 243-45, 249-52, 264, 278-82, 286, as well as Maps 3 and 4. (reference provided by the pro-Zionist commentator Daniel Pipes [4]).
The claim that Zionists still want "From the Nile to the Euphrates" first came to the attention of many people when Yasser Arafat stated it in an interview in a 1988 Playboy Interview Yasir Arafat. Several times in 1990 (including in a speech to the United Nations General Assembly in Switzerland) Arafat produced from his pocket a new Israeli coin, a 10 agora piece, claiming it showed a map of of "Greater Israel" (it doesn't) and that there'd been an inscription to "From the Nile to the Euphrates" in the Knesset for many years (there hadn't). See also: [13] and [14]
Other accusers of Israel simply make unsourced statements such as this one at: MediaMonitors reprint "America-firster" John Henshaw 1968:
"By guile, treachery and bloodletting, the Zionists plot to annex all of Jordan, virtually all of Syria, half of Iraq and a large part of Saudi Arabia and all of the rich cotton lands of the Nile Valley. It would be a simpler matter then to grab Yemen, Aden, Muscat, Qatar and Oman with their rich oil development. Israel is already well advanced in the development of its first nuclear warhead".
(There is more, which I think I only lightly editted, not changed).
If you've got no genuine objection to this material, then the honourable thing would be for you to put it back. -- 15:32, 19 November 2006 User:PalestineRemembered
Every Israeli could want these borders and it will still mean nothing in relation to the flag's design. What you need is to have a source of a Jewish leader/person which says that the flag was designed for this purpose. There are none like that - what does it tell you ? It's all a big hush conspiracy that nobody even suggested the idea ? Ever ? Btw, not even in the original talit - see above - such an explanation was never ever given by any Jewish figure. That's why the whole section should be trimmed as much as possible and there's no place to talk about these actual borders because it's a different issue. It's quite a basic logical fact to grasp. I do believe that if I were drawing two rivers, I would definitely use curly or squiggly lines btw :) Amoruso 17:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC) .
PR, if a non Jewish person was involed in creating the design for the flag etc or if he has testimonies regarding such a design then he can also be quoted of course, it's not the jewish nature that's important of course. Amoruso 22:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I could not link to Wikipedia's article that the term subjective validation redirects to. I chose to link it to an article that fairly explains the concept before distracting the reader with paranormal or occult topics, because those very distracting topics are not necessary for understanding subjective validation as it applies to interpretation of the Israeli flag. If someone would write a specific Wikipedia article for subjective validation in general, that replaces the current redirect for it, that would probably (depending on its quality) be a good reason for this article to link to it. The Forer effect is too specific of a form of subjective validation for it to apply in this context. - Samuel Erau 09:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, that's another piece of propaganda nonsense which is rebutted at article 10 Agorot controversy. AnonMoos 15:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised there is no mention that the Nazis forced Jews under their jurisdiction to wear 6-pointed stars. Although the 6-pointed star was a Jewish symbol of choice long before that time, its use on the flag within three years of World War II is presumably in part a statement of defiance that the Nazi genocide failed? Have we minutes of the meetings that chose the flag? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.143.207 ( talk • contribs).
Can users here please check the edits made by John Guy Royers and 165.155.200.143? The anonymous IP places a Nazi flag on the page to replace the Flag of Israel and then FOUR MINUTES later John Guy Royers comes along, addes flame-baitish/trollish comments/edits regarding Israel's supposed imperialism and allusions to Iran... Mind you he did this while the Nazi flag was still on the page. I caught this, reverted his edits, warned him, and John Guy Royers then complains and even heads over to the WP:AN to complain? This all smells funny. The user suddenly shows up 4 minutes after someone else vandalizing? Could it be the same person, just one edit made while not logged in? Also, what Wiki user who is less than 24 hours old knows about the WP:AN? Let alone what it does. Keep your eyes peeled and please watch out for this person. -- BaseballDetective 15:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
i dont really have any sources for this... but on my experience, when i get to talk with lots of Arab Egyptians i know, living in Cairo they believe the story of the Nile to el Furat issue, and they prove it by Israel's Embassy in Egypt being on the West side of the Nile rather then on the East Bank like most embassies in Cairo found in Garden City and Zamalek... known for hosting Embassies of USA, Canada, UK, China, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Austria, Eastern Block states, and most African and Latin American Embassies in Cairo and many others... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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Image:JB HQ.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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For the Israel stamp collectors and lovers, there is no article yet for Postage stamps and postal history of Israel (part of Category:Postal history by country) that would have so many Jewish themes. Feel free to go ahead and start it. (See the other country's in Category:Postage stamps by country that have theirs.) Nothing for Israel on Category:Postage stamps by country neither on List of country articles containing postal sections nor on List of philatelic bureaus. (but just a teeny note on Israel at Compendium of postage stamp issuers (Io - Iz).) This is truly a great shame and pity because Israel, and before that when it was the British Mandate produced and continues to issue the most beautiful and extensive stamps by any country. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 11:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The article gives Genesis 15:18 as a source for "land promised to the Jews by God" - but that passage doesn't specify Jews, merely descendents of Abraham. According to our article on Ishmael, son of Abraham, "Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people."
I can't see how Gen 15:18 promises this land to Jews specifically. The article shouldn't say that it does. Evercat ( talk) 23:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Challenge to Validity According to the Brittanica the flag was originally designed by Jacob Askowith and his son Charles. First displayed July 21, 1891. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quidproquo2004 ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The original designer is not Morris Harris, but Jacob Askowith of Brookline, Massachusetts. This matter should be looked into. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quidproquo2004 ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Could it be possible that the Israel flag is also influenced by the Karamanoğlu flag (1250 – 1487)? as Turks and Jews have lived together for centuries.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum, but I wanted to add one more point that nobody has mentioned. While it is true that Biblical Judaism and the ancient Kingdom of Israel did exist from the Nile to the Euphrates and some right-wing Zionists advocated for the creation of a State of Israel from those geographical borders, this is not the ideology of the mainstream of the Jewish people or of Israeli society. Once the State of Israel was established according to the 1949 borders most people in Israel accepted this reality. Through subsequent wars the territories of Israel expanded, but those wars in which Israel gained territorial expansion were not started by Israel herself. Regardless, from 1949 onwards those Jews who advocated for a State of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates have been the most radical and right-wing Jews in the State. Benjamin Netanyahu, current leader of the right-wing Likud political party, pulled Israeli presence out of the Biblical city of Hebron in 1997. Ariel Sharon, at the time leader of the right-wing Likud political party, pulled Israeli civilian and military presence out of the Gaza strip in 2005. These moves by Israeli politicians do not represent an ideology of territorial expansion in the region. While it is true that Israeli society, just like an other society has extremists, those extremists are the ones who believe that Israel should exist from the Nile to the Euphrates and in order to achieve this they build settlements in the West Bank; however those extremists don't have any real power in Israeli society. In order to alleviate some of this extreme political activity, the Israeli government has made it illegal to build new settlements in the West Bank and do force some to be dismantled, though not all of them.
Finally in response to a question posed by Slubin on August 19 2006, he asked:
"[What are the] origins of the two stripes on the tallit... If the Torah commands that only one thread of the tallit be dyed, how exactly did it move to two once the snail died out?"
This needs to be cleared up. A Tallit is a garment that Jews wear over their shirts when they pray. It is (sort-of) in the shape of a flag, rectangular with four corners and a hole in the middle for the head. On each of the four corners there are fringes and the commandment to wear tekhelet (blue fringe) is for these fringes on the corners of the tallit, not on the actual garment itself. The blue lines on the garment is a decoration that is not commanded. However, when you put the tallit on, those four corners turn in to two and you have blue fringes on both your right side and your left side. Perhaps the decoration of two blue bars on the white background means each side of your body that the blue fringe is found, the right and the left, amongst the other white fringes. I haven't been able to find any sources for this and I'm not sure if there are any since this is such an ancient custom. In Numbers 15:37-41 it says
God said to Moses, saying: 'Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them that they shall make themselves tzitzis on the corners of their garments, throughout the generations. And they shall place upon the tzitzis of each corner a thread of turquoise wool (tekhelet). It shall constitute tzitzis for you, that you may see it and remember all the commandments of Hashem which you stray. So that you may remember and perform all My commandments and be holy to your God. I am Hashem, your God, Who has removed you from the land of Egypt to be a God unto you; I am Hashem your God.
The commandment to wear the blue fringes has nothing to do with taking the land from the Nile to the Euphrates but to remember God and to perform all of His commandments. Additionally in the Torah it says Tzitzit, which refers specifically to the fringes themselves. Since we don't wear four cornered garments today we therefore wear a tallit, a special four cornered prayer shawl, that allows us to wear the tzitzit when we pray. Some Jews even wear a form of this four cornered garment with tzitzit under their clothes at all times, not just during prayer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shuki18 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just received a small book from the Israeli Embassy in the USA "Symbols of the State of Israel" yesterday in the mail. In their section about the flag, they specifically defined the blue shade as " Yale Blue." According to the school this was named after, Yale University, the shades are defined at http://www.yale.edu/printer/identity/yaleblue.html#yaleblue The actual specifications are correct, though the guide the Israelis gave me was small (15 cm/6" white border at the top and bottom and the Star of David is 69 cm/27.6" in size). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there a historian who can tell us the OFFICIAL proportions of the flag of the community of israel?? Some sources say 2:3 and others 8:11. The PROPORTION of the size of the triangles to the overall size of the flag is likewise, missing from these articles. The ration of the size of the triangles to the whole flag, and also the ration of thickness of blue-bands is very important useful information that needs to be researched and put into this article. 74.65.100.103 ( talk) 16:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I have made two changes to make this section flow better and be more encyclopedic.
I've tagged a statement in this section as potential original research. It's undoubtedly true that other nations have flags with Christian or Islamic symbols, but unless a reliable source has made this defense of the Star of David on this flag, it's original research on our part. Alternatively, remove the section; it's a rather silly complaint. -- BDD ( talk) 20:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this section still needs some work. This statement, in particular, has a problem:
For example, Muslim symbols are on the flags of Algeria, Turkey, and Pakistan
I've viewed pictures of these flags and while I do see that they contain the star and crescent symbol, I've been led to believe that these aren't Muslim symbols but rather the logo of the Ottoman Empire. Do Muslims generally feel that the star and crescent is a legitimate symbol representing Islam? — Ke6jjj ( talk) 21:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:48, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I have always thought that was what the two blue stripes represented, the explantion offered does seem more spiritual though. I can only think why the other explanation seemed plausible is because of Jewish presence in these areas long ago and what exactly constitutes the promised land. so is that the common consensus among Israelis of what the stripes represent just the spiritual colour? Zakaria mohyeldin 09:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
'It's a popular conspiracy' should surely read 'It's a popular conspiracy theory'! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Since myth is more accurate than conspiracy theory I've changed the word. Mcljlm ( talk) 17:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
After first replacing the Times of Israel reference with its JTA source and gilt letters with blue Hebrew letters I found the article by Askowith's daughter and quote from his son and then the Charles Reznikoff article. Details below:
Previously the flag was described as having gilt letters but neither the JTA nor the TOI mention gilt: "It bore striking similarities to today’s Israeli flag — except for the fact that the Star of David in the middle contained the word “Maccabee” in Hebrew letters". https://www.jta.org/2016/12/15/life-religion/how-israel-can-trace-its-flags-roots-to-boston; http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-israel-can-trace-its-flags-roots-to-boston-1891/. See the article by Askowith's daughter: "In the center of the latter was painted in blue the Hebrew word מכבי (Maccabee)" The First Zionist Flag by Dora Askowith in Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Jan., 1944), pp. 55-57 https://www.jstor.org/stable/4464558?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents. Not that "Charles Askowith recounts that he painted this flag, known at that time as the “Flag of Judah,” according to his father’s specifications." in American Jews and the flag of Israel by Jonathan D. Sarna https://www.brandeis.edu/hornstein/sarna/americanjewishcultureandscholarship/american-jews-flag-israel-sarna.pdf based on Jewish Advocate (June 26, 1952), D9. See also "The flag had two horizontal blue stripes painted on a white cloth about a yard long; between the stripes was the “Shield of David” and in the center of the “Shield” the Hebrew letters for “Maccabee,” also painted in blue." in From the American Scene: Boston’s Jewish Community: Earlier Days by Charles Reznikoff, Commentary May 1953 https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/from-the-american-scene-bostons-jewish-community-earlier-days/. Mcljlm ( talk) 18:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
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Change "Hexagram" to "Star of david" Adude3457 ( talk) 23:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
This seems to be of dubious relevance and almost argumentative. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.105.253 ( talk) 12:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
The triangles look equilateral. The star looks six-rotationally symmetric.
The measurements have each triangle’s height as same size as its base, even though this is narrower than equilateral by a factor of ½√3 ≈ 0.866. What gives? JDAWiseman ( talk) 19:48, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
If the diameter is 13.2, then the length of 9.9 is incorrect. It should be 9*1.1*2/√3 ~ 11.43 Ebwiki21 ( talk) 15:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the measurement of 9.9 at File:Construction sheet of Flag of Israel Equilateral Magen David.svg is incorrect, it should be 11.4 Xqgex ( talk) 13:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The article states in the criticism section - "However, many other nations have religiously exclusive symbols on their flags as well. For example, Muslim symbols are on the flags of Algeria, Turkey, and Pakistan among others, while Christian symbols are on the flags of the Nordic countries, Greece, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom". This seems problematic as it takes a certain pov on the issue but not only that the citation is itself problematic. If you examine the citation you'll see it is just a link to an article that details religious flag symbolism but this is not placed within the context of the discussions of criticism of the Israeli flag. In other words it is original research to include this without a citation placing this within the context of criticism of the flag. 80.111.17.229 ( talk) 08:54, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
As was pointed out back in 2020, there is an error with one of the dimensions in
File:Construction_sheet_of_Flag_of_Israel_Equilateral_Magen_David.svg. It could be fixed, but the construction would still not match
File:Flag of Israel.svg because there is mismatch in the diameter of the star.
When drawing the flag, there are three variants to choose from: