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Archive 1 |
I was one of the initial creators of this flag. It is NOT the flag of Dorset, it has not been endorsed in any way, shape or form. It doesn't even exist in any printed or woven form!
The only flag currently on sale is a white backgrounded, with three red lions on it - somewhat similar to the county council seal. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 10:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I note, with regret, that this article has been nominated for speedy deletion. Whilst I agree that this article suffers from a tremendous PoV bias in both content and structure, I feel that this is a valid article for inclusion in a dynamic encyclopaedia.
I believe the article may be valid given the following changes:
I hope that this stimulates some debate and leads to this article being reprieved. With no objections I shall make such an edit next week. Speedy McG ( talk) 03:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at re-doing this article. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 23:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is clearly set up as a self-interest page of Mr White, who is obviosuly pushing for this flag to be accepted as the official flag. A flag should be voted on by the residents of Dorset, not by someone who, seemingly, has his own commercial interests at heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.70.142 ( talk) 10:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Slander: to falsely report maliciously. Can't see why the statement should be slanderous as the one contentitious remark about commercial interests is preceded by "seemingly", which converts the comment to an observation or belief of the writer. All the other remarks appear to be perfectly accurate. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Shout the most, spend the most money, and hope that your design becomes the flag for Dorset by default! This should be a fair and open competition with public judging. However, as the competition is informal, with no official support from any governing body in Dorset, it needs to be taken up by the media to run the "beauty contest". Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 18:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, this page is not about the Flag for Dorset and should be retitled "St Wite's Flag" to be accurate about its content. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 08:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised to even see this in Wikipedia. It has not got historical value, promotes an idea of an individual (or small group of individuals) and is usually deleted under Wikipedia rules. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 15:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The page, as at 5th June, has greatly improved from its first submission. It still is not a proper encyclopedia entry as it is currently a news story about a competition for a flag and is promoting a single competitor. Only the Dorset County Council flag (entry elsewhere) is proper for inclusion on this site. Mr White has hijacked Wikipedia to promote his design, when he should have found a blog to do so. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
What you say(Dorsetpatriot) is unproven and untrue. When this article was created, there was a commercial flag in circulation - a banner of the arms of Dorset County Council and an independent campaign- ours. That was it. Two unofficial flags in circulation and this page reflected that. Since then, the county council have blundered their way into the whole thing(as of April 23rd 2008) and only did so because of what we were doing. Whether it is a contender or not, it is a high profile alternate unofficial flag of Dorset - it is being used by the people of Dorset as a flag of Dorset. One would think Mr DorsetPatriot - that you would clear this article up if you're so unhappy with it - given that there will actually be a Flag Of Dorset selected in the next few months. Deletion is an exercise in futility White43 White43 ( talk) 12:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I see some of the comments disagreeing with me have widely missed the point. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia and not a newsletter or blog. The article has been greatly toned down since its original entry but I still hold it has no value in this location. It is promotional of a single design in a competition to be the official flag of Dorset. The other counties mentioned in the discussions have passed the deliberation stage and can rightfully be included - they are now historical fact. This flag, firstly St Wite's flag then renamed the Dorset Cross is a matter of the creator's opinion. I will have no objection to an entry once the deliberations are over and a flag chosen. Otherwise, all flags entered to be the official flag should have their own entry in Wikipedia - clearly a nonsense. Mr White calls the banner of the arms of Dorset County Council an unofficial flag. This is misleading in his context. The banner exists and is recognised - as the banner of Dorset County Council. It is not anything other than that, but as it exists officially, it can be mentioned appropriately on Wikipedia. To make an analogy, where is the page that claims David Cameron is Prime Minister? Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this entry has had more face lifts than Joan Rivers, it must difficult for new readers to understand the fuss. This page started off with one intention - to promote the St Wite's design (renamed as the Dorset Cross - both titles creations of the promoters) as a flag for Dorset. It has never been, and is still not, an entry that without bias, discusses the true and total situation that a form of contest exist and that there are numerous entries (none of which are mentioned). I agree with the writer above that "This article should discuss all flags used and in circulation" and it doesn't. Research shows a number of unofficial flags claiming to represent Dorset, not to mention Dorset affiliated flags such as military and recognised non-political organisations. Recommending this page for deletion has achieved some of what I hoped, a discussion, serious re-editing, and openness. I look forward to a proper entry when the chosen design is accepted, such as the Devon Flag entry. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I refer the writer above to my comments on the Deletion page - I did try to edit into factual information, which was then re-edited each time by the sponsors of the St Wite's Flag. Deletion enables the slate to be wiped and an accurate page to be re-instated once there really is a Dorset Flag. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I've done a substantial rewrite that is hopefully more NPOV. Can we have some comments please? I can't get the images correct - can anyone else help? 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It took a long time to get here but for the first time, the page is what it should have been at the start. Provided there is no reversion to the earlier style, I remove my request for deletion. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with this page is simply an advertisement for Mr Whites flag idea, not very well dressed up as a factual wikipedia entry. I am going to suggest a mark for deletion as it's far away from NPOV and instead more corporate vanity and seems unsalvagable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
now would probably be a good time to remind editors of wikipedias policies - i.e. corporate vanity and POV articals are not valid. If you wish to make this page a blog then it is neither valid or acceptable as a wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
'Corporate Vanity' seems to be your buzzword and you're unnecessarily applying it to Flag of Dorset. The page is in no way corporate vanity as it gives the facts surrounding the Dorset flag. Now, it has been confirmed that the Dorset Cross IS a contender, this in a PR release by the editor of Dorset Life Magazine - the others are not confirmed, only by word of mouth. The Dorset Life editor was one of the panelists who selected it. So, how is it corporate vanity to put this on the page? Also, why did you move the discussion page?
A flag of Dorset exists in two unofficial capacities already - the DCC armorial banner is one and the Dorset Cross being another - both are available to the public, hence existing as flags of Dorset, so the title of the article is correct and is not corporate vanity. The page was OK'd by other editors as not POV, so I suggest you make discussions first before moving the page or cutting huge sections out. White43 ( talk) 12:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
In addition, it is not good Wikipedia practice to make these edits without discussion first. It would be more constructive to point to the 'offending' material and then discuss. White43 ( talk) 12:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
User Supcom is claiming that this article is 'corporate vanity', is it?
You very much appear to be using this aritical as a vehicle for your own flag contender in the much the same way as a Blog. Before you get upset that others are stopping you from doing this, I strongly suggest (again) that you read Wkipedias policies on editting pages, style and construction. Unless you use verifiable - and that does not mean your campaigns / personal blog, the entry is not valid and will be removed.
Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL*.
Supcom ( talk) 09:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this page may be unsalvagable as your response just reinforces that you are using this page a vehicle for commercial and personal ideas under the guise of the topic. See {{ WP:SOAP}}. Please remember that (a) this isn't your "personal page" (b) it must only contain verifiable facts from 3rd parties (c) it must be written from a NPOV standpoint. For more information see {{ WP:NOT}} Supcom ( talk) 10:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I have requested a third party examine this and have made requests for comments as I personally think you are not acting NPOV and are using 'corporate vanity' to discriminate against one of the flags, which suggests you have an agenda. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 11:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
again - opinion and conjecture. Whilst I have no problem with your particular flag being mentioned in the wider context of the on-going competition and the recent history, it must be balanced by equally mentioning all the other flags that are claimed to be a flag of Dorset or in the competition. Even the title can be construed as POV, as there is neither one official flag for Dorset nor can there be without legal due process - something that is outside the remit of both the competition and your personal campaign. However I consider that the article as it stands is close to NPOV. While I can understand you want to see your flag as THE Dorset Flag, until such time as that is fact (or defacto) it should not be mentioned as such in Wikipedia. For further info please refer to "Salvaging this Article" paragraph,the help, or previously mentioned tags such as {{ WP:NOT}} Supcom ( talk) 16:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a source of information on a huge range of issues and topics, many of which do not get an airing in conventional references; it is particularly useful in providing details on obscure flags across the planet that are not often featured in standard works. Included in Wikipedia’s annals are the flags for example, of Khuzestani Arabs, ethnic Somalis in Kenya, the Bakonjo of Uganda, the Turks of western Thrace – some decidedly obscure banners but I am grateful to Wikipedia contributors for providing information on these myriad groups which allows me to know exactly whom these designs represent and understand the context when I see them aloft on news reports and elsewhere. Why therefore are we to be denied similar access to information concerning the extant flag in the English county of Dorset? The fact is that a gold flag with a red edged white cross, designated the “Dorset Cross”, can be seen flying across the county; it is also a fact that the town council in the Dorset town of Wimborne has embraced this as their preferred county flag. The design is therefore a tangible reality, that has evident popularity and the full support of a local authority, what factor in these circumstances makes the Dorset Cross ineligible for inclusion in Wikipedia? One might argue that the Dorset Cross is not an official flag - how many of the examples cited above can claim to be official? The four snakes and cross flag depicted in the entry on Martinique in fact specifically states that this is an “unofficial region flag” however, one presumes that it actually flies in the island i.e. it exists and is possessed of a certain popularity and is therefore worthy of note. How does the circumstance in Dorset differ? As in Martinique, the Dorset Cross flag is not official; as in Martinque, the flag can be seen flying in many places, how is this flag then not worthy of mention or depiction in Wikipedia? A trawl across the internet reveals that there are two flags currently commercially available as Dorset flags – one is a banner of the arms of the County Council, which design the general public is not legally entitled to fly, the other is the Dorset Cross, which the public demonstrably are flying but this reality is not being reflected in Wikipedia, where we currently have an illustration of the banner of the arms but none of the Dorset Cross – this strikes me as imbalanced and tendentious. The Dorset Cross is a contender in a current competition held under the auspices of the Dorset County Council to select a flag that they will themselves endorse. The competition itself is of course worthy of mention and when all the contenders are revealed they should of course all appear in Wikipedia but the fact is that notwithstanding said competition, the Dorset Cross is already flying and predates the competition and Wikipedia, in not allowing its depiction is guilty of misinformation. One relies on Wikipedia to advise that the flag of the Dinka is a five striped horizontal design and takes such advice on good faith; how odd therefore that one should not be similarly able to consult this resource on a flag that one can see flying in the streets and all about. User:Vexilo 18:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Smallbones ( talk) 23:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
having stumbled over this article, and read the too-ing and fro-ing, I felt compelled to sign up and comment. Looking at the history It looks like this entry started as a blog. AFAIK there is no Dorset flag (i've never seen one!) but it also appears that while there is no public,tribal or political consensus on a flag of Dorset (invalidating Vexillos argument) it cannot be disputed - looking at the contributors here - that the St Wites Flag(?) is being promoted by a small group of individuals who are unilaterally attempting to get it adopted as the country flag. Thus I think it would be a good idea to include it in the article from that angle. So long as it is written from a neutral viewpoint, and doesn't claim to be the flag of Dorset just the flag adopted/designed by the self styled campaign group, I see no problem. PooleLad ( talk) 08:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
That's what I was alluding to - just not in the same POV way. I think what you are saying can be included *if* (and this is the important bit) it's from a neutral, 3rd party viewpoint. If I get time I will do it myself. The armorial banner is "official" in that it represents the county BUT can only be flown by the council as they are the only ones "legally" (bizarre rule?) allowed. Or so says google. PooleLad ( talk) 10:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
That's fine PooleLad - I'm avoiding making edits myself due to COI - would appreciate you doing it. As for the banner - it is the official arms of Dorset County Council - not Dorset, so therefore owned by the CC, not Dorset and can only be used by them or their representatives. When being flown - it represents them only. Given that we have two unitary authorities - the banner doesn't represent Poole or Bournemouth Boroughs at all. White43 ( talk) 12:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
sounds sensible if properly referenced. will remove the COI after. Supcom ( talk) 21:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Greetings from 3rd Opinion. I'm sorry, but I don't think WP:3O applies here because there seem to be multiple editors involved in the dispute. Per WP:3O " If, after discussion, only two editors are involved, you may list the dispute below in the Active disagreements section. Otherwise, please follow other methods in the dispute resolution process."
I think you need to work out a consensus, and if all else fails, you can try Wikipedia:COIN, the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard, or continue with you RfC and possible mediation if nothing can get worked out. Good luck! Livitup ( talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I was the chairman of the panel that shortlisted the four designs for the people of Dorset to vote on. I also added the four designs, along with the text that was submitted with each design before the shortlisting, to this page. The designer of one of the shortlisted entrants wants to change the text that appears under their design. As Chief Vexillologist I have decided that in the interest of fairness no changes should be made to the designs or the accompanying text now that they have been shortlisted. The text was considered as part of the shortlisting process and if different text had been supplied a design may or may not have been included in the shortlist - it's a bit like asking to change your answers in an exam after the marks have been announced. So I have undone the change made to the page to modify the text. If anyone has a problem with this please contact me at chiefvexillologist@flaginstitute.org. The affected party is of course free to add an additional section to the "Flag of Dorset" page that explains why they wish to change the text and what they now want to say, but I would appreciate it if they would leave the four candidate entries as they are. Also feel free to tell me if you think I'm being overly cautious! GrahamPadruig ( talk) 00:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I re-reverted the additions by User:81.159.212.253 and User:Pmsmythe because they are inaccurate in their implications and a sole opinion, not encyclopaedic content. I will state at the outset that I am not from Dorset.
No British county flag can be official as such. It can only be accepted. The closest it can come to "official" status is being entered on the UK Flags Register, as the St Wite's Cross flag has been.
The edits by the above user(s) imply a procedural failure, invalidating the flag. However there is no procedure which can make it official and so no procedural failure. The edit gives no more than that user's personal ideas for making a flag look more official. It is pure invention.
Points to note specifically:
Anyone might privately disagree with the flag, but that is not encyclopaedic content. What is certain is that no procedural objection can be raised: the edit is thus misleading to readers.
Howard Alexander ( talk) 17:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest the residents of any editor is irreverent to the dispute. Also, we can also put aside the general assertion that “No British flag can be official” since there are different arguments for Scottish and English flags, and the powers of the College of Arms and authority of tradition also need consideration.
However, regarding the Dorset flag we can state clearly that it is NOT official. And in this we agree. But the concept that a flag can be a little bit official, like a little bit pregnant, is absurd – it either is or is not. This lack of official status needs explaining in the article.
“It can only be accepted.” I have no idea what this statement means. Please explain.
You use a pseudonym of “St. Wite’ cross”. Does the FI claim to have some Ecclesiastical authority? As far as I am aware no church body has approved such an icon for this saint.
The so-called “procedure” is nonsensical. You have already admitted the flag has no official status. And, in fact, there is a procedure. The FI need to petition the government or approach the monarch herself to request the granting such honours to counties. To my knowledge the FI have not done anything akin to this.
It was Dorset County Council that ran the competition. They acknowledged that “discussions would have to involve Bournemouth and Poole”.
You misquote the FI’s inclusion criteria. It states “normally apply to a historical county rather than a modern administrative area”. First the word “only” is NOT used. Second, there is no suggestion from the FI that they seek to exclude unitary authorities; they are still part of the county. Your statement “it is not for their area” is false. Third, you appear to be unaware of the recent legislation: The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007. This is why the FI need council approval. Pmsmythe ( talk) 16:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, as a compromise, how about something along the lines of:
“The Flag of Dorset is the flag of the English county of Dorset. The 'Dorset Cross' was chosen as the flag of Dorset on the 16 September 2008 following a public vote organised by Dorset County Council. The county’s two unitary authorities of Bournemouth and Poole declined the invitation to participate.”
I found a reference to this here http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/search/2336183.County_flag_idea_snub
What do you think? Pmsmythe ( talk) 11:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, changes made. Pmsmythe ( talk) 20:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I was one of the initial creators of this flag. It is NOT the flag of Dorset, it has not been endorsed in any way, shape or form. It doesn't even exist in any printed or woven form!
The only flag currently on sale is a white backgrounded, with three red lions on it - somewhat similar to the county council seal. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 10:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I note, with regret, that this article has been nominated for speedy deletion. Whilst I agree that this article suffers from a tremendous PoV bias in both content and structure, I feel that this is a valid article for inclusion in a dynamic encyclopaedia.
I believe the article may be valid given the following changes:
I hope that this stimulates some debate and leads to this article being reprieved. With no objections I shall make such an edit next week. Speedy McG ( talk) 03:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at re-doing this article. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 23:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is clearly set up as a self-interest page of Mr White, who is obviosuly pushing for this flag to be accepted as the official flag. A flag should be voted on by the residents of Dorset, not by someone who, seemingly, has his own commercial interests at heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.70.142 ( talk) 10:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Slander: to falsely report maliciously. Can't see why the statement should be slanderous as the one contentitious remark about commercial interests is preceded by "seemingly", which converts the comment to an observation or belief of the writer. All the other remarks appear to be perfectly accurate. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Shout the most, spend the most money, and hope that your design becomes the flag for Dorset by default! This should be a fair and open competition with public judging. However, as the competition is informal, with no official support from any governing body in Dorset, it needs to be taken up by the media to run the "beauty contest". Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 18:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, this page is not about the Flag for Dorset and should be retitled "St Wite's Flag" to be accurate about its content. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 08:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised to even see this in Wikipedia. It has not got historical value, promotes an idea of an individual (or small group of individuals) and is usually deleted under Wikipedia rules. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) 15:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The page, as at 5th June, has greatly improved from its first submission. It still is not a proper encyclopedia entry as it is currently a news story about a competition for a flag and is promoting a single competitor. Only the Dorset County Council flag (entry elsewhere) is proper for inclusion on this site. Mr White has hijacked Wikipedia to promote his design, when he should have found a blog to do so. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
What you say(Dorsetpatriot) is unproven and untrue. When this article was created, there was a commercial flag in circulation - a banner of the arms of Dorset County Council and an independent campaign- ours. That was it. Two unofficial flags in circulation and this page reflected that. Since then, the county council have blundered their way into the whole thing(as of April 23rd 2008) and only did so because of what we were doing. Whether it is a contender or not, it is a high profile alternate unofficial flag of Dorset - it is being used by the people of Dorset as a flag of Dorset. One would think Mr DorsetPatriot - that you would clear this article up if you're so unhappy with it - given that there will actually be a Flag Of Dorset selected in the next few months. Deletion is an exercise in futility White43 White43 ( talk) 12:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I see some of the comments disagreeing with me have widely missed the point. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia and not a newsletter or blog. The article has been greatly toned down since its original entry but I still hold it has no value in this location. It is promotional of a single design in a competition to be the official flag of Dorset. The other counties mentioned in the discussions have passed the deliberation stage and can rightfully be included - they are now historical fact. This flag, firstly St Wite's flag then renamed the Dorset Cross is a matter of the creator's opinion. I will have no objection to an entry once the deliberations are over and a flag chosen. Otherwise, all flags entered to be the official flag should have their own entry in Wikipedia - clearly a nonsense. Mr White calls the banner of the arms of Dorset County Council an unofficial flag. This is misleading in his context. The banner exists and is recognised - as the banner of Dorset County Council. It is not anything other than that, but as it exists officially, it can be mentioned appropriately on Wikipedia. To make an analogy, where is the page that claims David Cameron is Prime Minister? Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this entry has had more face lifts than Joan Rivers, it must difficult for new readers to understand the fuss. This page started off with one intention - to promote the St Wite's design (renamed as the Dorset Cross - both titles creations of the promoters) as a flag for Dorset. It has never been, and is still not, an entry that without bias, discusses the true and total situation that a form of contest exist and that there are numerous entries (none of which are mentioned). I agree with the writer above that "This article should discuss all flags used and in circulation" and it doesn't. Research shows a number of unofficial flags claiming to represent Dorset, not to mention Dorset affiliated flags such as military and recognised non-political organisations. Recommending this page for deletion has achieved some of what I hoped, a discussion, serious re-editing, and openness. I look forward to a proper entry when the chosen design is accepted, such as the Devon Flag entry. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I refer the writer above to my comments on the Deletion page - I did try to edit into factual information, which was then re-edited each time by the sponsors of the St Wite's Flag. Deletion enables the slate to be wiped and an accurate page to be re-instated once there really is a Dorset Flag. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I've done a substantial rewrite that is hopefully more NPOV. Can we have some comments please? I can't get the images correct - can anyone else help? 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It took a long time to get here but for the first time, the page is what it should have been at the start. Provided there is no reversion to the earlier style, I remove my request for deletion. Dorsetpatriot ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with this page is simply an advertisement for Mr Whites flag idea, not very well dressed up as a factual wikipedia entry. I am going to suggest a mark for deletion as it's far away from NPOV and instead more corporate vanity and seems unsalvagable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
now would probably be a good time to remind editors of wikipedias policies - i.e. corporate vanity and POV articals are not valid. If you wish to make this page a blog then it is neither valid or acceptable as a wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
'Corporate Vanity' seems to be your buzzword and you're unnecessarily applying it to Flag of Dorset. The page is in no way corporate vanity as it gives the facts surrounding the Dorset flag. Now, it has been confirmed that the Dorset Cross IS a contender, this in a PR release by the editor of Dorset Life Magazine - the others are not confirmed, only by word of mouth. The Dorset Life editor was one of the panelists who selected it. So, how is it corporate vanity to put this on the page? Also, why did you move the discussion page?
A flag of Dorset exists in two unofficial capacities already - the DCC armorial banner is one and the Dorset Cross being another - both are available to the public, hence existing as flags of Dorset, so the title of the article is correct and is not corporate vanity. The page was OK'd by other editors as not POV, so I suggest you make discussions first before moving the page or cutting huge sections out. White43 ( talk) 12:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
In addition, it is not good Wikipedia practice to make these edits without discussion first. It would be more constructive to point to the 'offending' material and then discuss. White43 ( talk) 12:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
User Supcom is claiming that this article is 'corporate vanity', is it?
You very much appear to be using this aritical as a vehicle for your own flag contender in the much the same way as a Blog. Before you get upset that others are stopping you from doing this, I strongly suggest (again) that you read Wkipedias policies on editting pages, style and construction. Unless you use verifiable - and that does not mean your campaigns / personal blog, the entry is not valid and will be removed.
Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL*.
Supcom ( talk) 09:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this page may be unsalvagable as your response just reinforces that you are using this page a vehicle for commercial and personal ideas under the guise of the topic. See {{ WP:SOAP}}. Please remember that (a) this isn't your "personal page" (b) it must only contain verifiable facts from 3rd parties (c) it must be written from a NPOV standpoint. For more information see {{ WP:NOT}} Supcom ( talk) 10:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I have requested a third party examine this and have made requests for comments as I personally think you are not acting NPOV and are using 'corporate vanity' to discriminate against one of the flags, which suggests you have an agenda. 87.127.178.28 ( talk) 11:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
again - opinion and conjecture. Whilst I have no problem with your particular flag being mentioned in the wider context of the on-going competition and the recent history, it must be balanced by equally mentioning all the other flags that are claimed to be a flag of Dorset or in the competition. Even the title can be construed as POV, as there is neither one official flag for Dorset nor can there be without legal due process - something that is outside the remit of both the competition and your personal campaign. However I consider that the article as it stands is close to NPOV. While I can understand you want to see your flag as THE Dorset Flag, until such time as that is fact (or defacto) it should not be mentioned as such in Wikipedia. For further info please refer to "Salvaging this Article" paragraph,the help, or previously mentioned tags such as {{ WP:NOT}} Supcom ( talk) 16:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a source of information on a huge range of issues and topics, many of which do not get an airing in conventional references; it is particularly useful in providing details on obscure flags across the planet that are not often featured in standard works. Included in Wikipedia’s annals are the flags for example, of Khuzestani Arabs, ethnic Somalis in Kenya, the Bakonjo of Uganda, the Turks of western Thrace – some decidedly obscure banners but I am grateful to Wikipedia contributors for providing information on these myriad groups which allows me to know exactly whom these designs represent and understand the context when I see them aloft on news reports and elsewhere. Why therefore are we to be denied similar access to information concerning the extant flag in the English county of Dorset? The fact is that a gold flag with a red edged white cross, designated the “Dorset Cross”, can be seen flying across the county; it is also a fact that the town council in the Dorset town of Wimborne has embraced this as their preferred county flag. The design is therefore a tangible reality, that has evident popularity and the full support of a local authority, what factor in these circumstances makes the Dorset Cross ineligible for inclusion in Wikipedia? One might argue that the Dorset Cross is not an official flag - how many of the examples cited above can claim to be official? The four snakes and cross flag depicted in the entry on Martinique in fact specifically states that this is an “unofficial region flag” however, one presumes that it actually flies in the island i.e. it exists and is possessed of a certain popularity and is therefore worthy of note. How does the circumstance in Dorset differ? As in Martinique, the Dorset Cross flag is not official; as in Martinque, the flag can be seen flying in many places, how is this flag then not worthy of mention or depiction in Wikipedia? A trawl across the internet reveals that there are two flags currently commercially available as Dorset flags – one is a banner of the arms of the County Council, which design the general public is not legally entitled to fly, the other is the Dorset Cross, which the public demonstrably are flying but this reality is not being reflected in Wikipedia, where we currently have an illustration of the banner of the arms but none of the Dorset Cross – this strikes me as imbalanced and tendentious. The Dorset Cross is a contender in a current competition held under the auspices of the Dorset County Council to select a flag that they will themselves endorse. The competition itself is of course worthy of mention and when all the contenders are revealed they should of course all appear in Wikipedia but the fact is that notwithstanding said competition, the Dorset Cross is already flying and predates the competition and Wikipedia, in not allowing its depiction is guilty of misinformation. One relies on Wikipedia to advise that the flag of the Dinka is a five striped horizontal design and takes such advice on good faith; how odd therefore that one should not be similarly able to consult this resource on a flag that one can see flying in the streets and all about. User:Vexilo 18:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Smallbones ( talk) 23:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
having stumbled over this article, and read the too-ing and fro-ing, I felt compelled to sign up and comment. Looking at the history It looks like this entry started as a blog. AFAIK there is no Dorset flag (i've never seen one!) but it also appears that while there is no public,tribal or political consensus on a flag of Dorset (invalidating Vexillos argument) it cannot be disputed - looking at the contributors here - that the St Wites Flag(?) is being promoted by a small group of individuals who are unilaterally attempting to get it adopted as the country flag. Thus I think it would be a good idea to include it in the article from that angle. So long as it is written from a neutral viewpoint, and doesn't claim to be the flag of Dorset just the flag adopted/designed by the self styled campaign group, I see no problem. PooleLad ( talk) 08:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
That's what I was alluding to - just not in the same POV way. I think what you are saying can be included *if* (and this is the important bit) it's from a neutral, 3rd party viewpoint. If I get time I will do it myself. The armorial banner is "official" in that it represents the county BUT can only be flown by the council as they are the only ones "legally" (bizarre rule?) allowed. Or so says google. PooleLad ( talk) 10:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
That's fine PooleLad - I'm avoiding making edits myself due to COI - would appreciate you doing it. As for the banner - it is the official arms of Dorset County Council - not Dorset, so therefore owned by the CC, not Dorset and can only be used by them or their representatives. When being flown - it represents them only. Given that we have two unitary authorities - the banner doesn't represent Poole or Bournemouth Boroughs at all. White43 ( talk) 12:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
sounds sensible if properly referenced. will remove the COI after. Supcom ( talk) 21:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Greetings from 3rd Opinion. I'm sorry, but I don't think WP:3O applies here because there seem to be multiple editors involved in the dispute. Per WP:3O " If, after discussion, only two editors are involved, you may list the dispute below in the Active disagreements section. Otherwise, please follow other methods in the dispute resolution process."
I think you need to work out a consensus, and if all else fails, you can try Wikipedia:COIN, the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard, or continue with you RfC and possible mediation if nothing can get worked out. Good luck! Livitup ( talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I was the chairman of the panel that shortlisted the four designs for the people of Dorset to vote on. I also added the four designs, along with the text that was submitted with each design before the shortlisting, to this page. The designer of one of the shortlisted entrants wants to change the text that appears under their design. As Chief Vexillologist I have decided that in the interest of fairness no changes should be made to the designs or the accompanying text now that they have been shortlisted. The text was considered as part of the shortlisting process and if different text had been supplied a design may or may not have been included in the shortlist - it's a bit like asking to change your answers in an exam after the marks have been announced. So I have undone the change made to the page to modify the text. If anyone has a problem with this please contact me at chiefvexillologist@flaginstitute.org. The affected party is of course free to add an additional section to the "Flag of Dorset" page that explains why they wish to change the text and what they now want to say, but I would appreciate it if they would leave the four candidate entries as they are. Also feel free to tell me if you think I'm being overly cautious! GrahamPadruig ( talk) 00:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I re-reverted the additions by User:81.159.212.253 and User:Pmsmythe because they are inaccurate in their implications and a sole opinion, not encyclopaedic content. I will state at the outset that I am not from Dorset.
No British county flag can be official as such. It can only be accepted. The closest it can come to "official" status is being entered on the UK Flags Register, as the St Wite's Cross flag has been.
The edits by the above user(s) imply a procedural failure, invalidating the flag. However there is no procedure which can make it official and so no procedural failure. The edit gives no more than that user's personal ideas for making a flag look more official. It is pure invention.
Points to note specifically:
Anyone might privately disagree with the flag, but that is not encyclopaedic content. What is certain is that no procedural objection can be raised: the edit is thus misleading to readers.
Howard Alexander ( talk) 17:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest the residents of any editor is irreverent to the dispute. Also, we can also put aside the general assertion that “No British flag can be official” since there are different arguments for Scottish and English flags, and the powers of the College of Arms and authority of tradition also need consideration.
However, regarding the Dorset flag we can state clearly that it is NOT official. And in this we agree. But the concept that a flag can be a little bit official, like a little bit pregnant, is absurd – it either is or is not. This lack of official status needs explaining in the article.
“It can only be accepted.” I have no idea what this statement means. Please explain.
You use a pseudonym of “St. Wite’ cross”. Does the FI claim to have some Ecclesiastical authority? As far as I am aware no church body has approved such an icon for this saint.
The so-called “procedure” is nonsensical. You have already admitted the flag has no official status. And, in fact, there is a procedure. The FI need to petition the government or approach the monarch herself to request the granting such honours to counties. To my knowledge the FI have not done anything akin to this.
It was Dorset County Council that ran the competition. They acknowledged that “discussions would have to involve Bournemouth and Poole”.
You misquote the FI’s inclusion criteria. It states “normally apply to a historical county rather than a modern administrative area”. First the word “only” is NOT used. Second, there is no suggestion from the FI that they seek to exclude unitary authorities; they are still part of the county. Your statement “it is not for their area” is false. Third, you appear to be unaware of the recent legislation: The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007. This is why the FI need council approval. Pmsmythe ( talk) 16:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, as a compromise, how about something along the lines of:
“The Flag of Dorset is the flag of the English county of Dorset. The 'Dorset Cross' was chosen as the flag of Dorset on the 16 September 2008 following a public vote organised by Dorset County Council. The county’s two unitary authorities of Bournemouth and Poole declined the invitation to participate.”
I found a reference to this here http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/search/2336183.County_flag_idea_snub
What do you think? Pmsmythe ( talk) 11:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, changes made. Pmsmythe ( talk) 20:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
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