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deleted heading and paragraph
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Additional perspectives Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The addition was made during a period of nostalgia for the " Lost Cause" around the time of the flag's change. [1] [2] According to historian John M. Coski, the adoption of Alabama's flag coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation, [3] as other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted new state flags around the same time when those states instituted Jim Crow segregation laws themselves: [3] References
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An editor added the above paragraph and heading at 21:08, 25 March 2022 (UTC), but another editor reverted it twice:
This is a different issue than the The Washington Post article, and contrary to what the edit summary said, there is no discernible discussion of this on the talk page. A problem I have with the deletion edit summaries, is that another editor could use the same wording as edit summaries for edits that restored the paragraph and heading.
Does anybody know what the objections are to the heading and the paragraph?-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:41, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The flag was adopted during a period of nostalgia for the "Lost Cause",[1][2] and coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation.[3] Other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted new state flags around the same time when those states instituted Jim Crow segregation laws themselves.[3]would be better.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:07, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The flag was adopted during a period of nostalgia for the "Lost Cause",[1][2] and coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation.[3] Other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted or modified their state flags around the same time.[3]Nemov ( talk) 12:51, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I believe this is an improvement over the current article. I would also like to include the image of the Hilliard's Legion flag that according to Bell Allen Ross, served as inspiration for John W.A. Sanford Jr.'s Alabama flag design. I could be WP:BOLD and make these edits, but I'd rather make sure there's some consensus before moving forward. I'm also open to suggestions for naming the second section. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 00:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Thorpewilliam and Desertambition: There is a sentence that editors are arguing about (I have applied strike though to the words that Thorpewilliam deleted and Desertambition restored):
The previous page of the source (page 79) says: The Confederate veteran generation insured the surval of the battle flag as an offical symbol of several states. The legislatures of Alabama and Florida in the 1890s adopted new state flags featuring a plain red St. Andrew's cross on a white field. The red cross on the white field was (and still is) the whole Alabama state flag.
It goes on (on pages 79-80) The legislative records offer no clue whether the new flags were intended as references to the Confederate battle flag.
There is a further discussion of this on page 80.
The statement about the 1870s is contradicted by the source, which says 1890s.
The link between white people making up the legislature of Alabama and adopting the flag is not supported by the source. It appears to be someone's personal analysis. It needs a source that explicitly makes the link between the skin colour of the people on the legislature and the adoption of that feature of the flag.
The bit of the quotation saying "Four years before Mississippi..." is irrelevant. -- Toddy1 (talk) 22:14, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans
...since the flag was adopted during a period of promotion of the "Lost Cause" of the culture of the antebellum South. From the late 1870s, the white-dominated legislature passed Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. Other former Confederate slave states, beginning with Mississippi, and followed by Florida, had also adopted new state flags around the same time that they disenfranchised African Americans and passed laws establishing Jim Crow segregation.
editors have not actually read the source in question. This is a disturbing pattern that has been discussed over and over. Please stop accusing other editors. Please stop telling other editors to learn history. It's disrespectful and presumptuous. Nemov ( talk) 03:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
formal Jim Crow segregation laws. Desertambition appears to be arguing that what the source says is all rubbish, because Jim Crow laws and racial segregation started 20 years earlier. But Wikipedia policy on verifiability is that all material in articles
must be attributable to reliable, published sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans
References
The flag changes in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida coincided with the passage of formal Jim Crow segregation laws throughout the South. Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown (
link) Cite error: The named reference "Coski8081" was defined multiple times with different content (see the
help page).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm making this a new section since the other one is difficult for anyone to read through. Parkwells added this sentence:
Following Reconstruction and withdrawal of federal troops, from the late 1870s white Democrats regained control of the Alabama and other former Confederate legislatures. [1]
Since this is an article about the Flag of Alabama I don't think this content is necessary. This is the paragraph without that addition:
Some commentators have interpreted the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy, since the flag was adopted during a period of promotion of the " Lost Cause" of the culture of the antebellum South. [2] [3] [4] Other former Confederate slave states, beginning with Mississippi, and followed by Florida, had also adopted new state flags around the same time that they disenfranchised African Americans and passed laws establishing Jim Crow segregation. [4]
That summary doesn't need additional context. This article's focus should be on the flag and its history. Coski has made the connection between the flag, Jim Crow, and the Lost Cause movement. That's what should be cited. If people want to learn more about reconstruction they can go to the articles for those topics. Thanks for the help! Nemov ( talk) 14:49, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
References
SJLR
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The flag changes in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida coincided with the passage of formal Jim Crow segregation laws throughout the South. Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Editors have done a good job fleshing out the "theories" section. Reading the article now, the discussion of the flag dimensions seems out of place in the "theories" section. The 1987 letter by the Attorney General should be moved to the "current flag" section. Anyone object to removing the AG section from theories and moving it to the "current flag" with this quote?
The legislation that created the state flag did not specify that the flag was to be square but defined the width of the bars of the cross. In 1987, the office of Alabama Attorney General Don Siegelman stated in a letter that the proper shape of the state flag is rectangular, as it had been depicted numerous times in official publications and reproductions. Despite this, the flag is still often depicted as being square, even in official publications of the U.S. federal government.
Earlier drafts leaned heavily on the AG's letter to connect the flag to the confederacy, but the additional sources do a good job at this and his letter is better suited for the dimensions section since that's the topic of his letter. This change should make two sections flow better together. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 15:54, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I moved the flag dimensions information into the current flag section where it belongs. The AG references to the regiment flag remain for now. The 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment included the Hilliard's Alabama Legion so I'm not sure it needs to be spelled out, but either way is fine. Nemov ( talk) 03:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A large majority of the article focuses on the resemblance to the Spanish colonial flag and features a picture of the flag prominently in the article, those sections are not supported by citations and every citation on the history of the flag mentions the intentional resemblance to the Confederate battle flag. The picture of the Spanish flag should be replaced with a Confederate battle flag. I believe the sections talking about the Spanish colonial flag should be removed entirely because they are highly misleading. Desertambition ( talk) 19:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
The saltire of Alabama's flag most closely resembles the saltire of the flag of Florida, which has its heritage in the Spanish Cross of Burgundy. Southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish Florida and subsequently West Florida. Although Alabama's adoption of its flag design predates that of Florida's by five years (1895), the 1868–1900 Seal of Florida depicted a white flag with a red saltire, similar to Florida's current flag or a Burgundian saltire, on top of a steamboat. Alabama's flag is officially a St. Andrew's cross as described in its legislation. This represents the cross on which St. Andrew was crucified.
The saltire of Alabama's flag most closely resembles the saltire of the flag of Florida, which has its heritage in the Spanish Cross of Burgundy.Southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish Florida and subsequently West Florida.Although Alabama's adoption of its flag design predates that of Florida's by five years (1895), the 1868–1900 Seal of Florida depicted a white flag with a red saltire, similar to Florida's current flag or a Burgundian saltire, on top of a steamboat. Alabama's flag is officially a St. Andrew's cross as described in its legislation. This represents the cross on which St. Andrew was crucified.
the flag is not based on the confederate flag but is instead based on the colonial Spanish flag? The statement in the article says that the Alabama flag closely resembles the flag of Florida, which has connection to the Burgundy cross. Anyway, I can't quote 6 pages but I guess the most relevant part is on page 134 which states
Our original-meaning analysis cannot end with the canon of fixed meaning, however, as the State of Alabama adopted a flag that bears a striking resemblance to Florida's red bars in 1895 Indeed, one commentator has even suggested that "the recently-adopted Alabama state flag" inspired Floridians to add red bars to their flag in 1900.-- Spekkios ( talk) 20:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Many of the southern states, even if they don't actually have a true Confederate symbol, have a flag that's reminiscent. Florida and Alabama have saltire flags, though they're not in the colour of the Confederate flag. That's all he says. The Denver Post article's only source for their information is this which references a the opinion of Dr. Owen. WP:DUE states that
...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint...and I hardly think that a couple of lines or an offhand statement is enough to include an authoritative statement in the lead. The article reflects what scholarly consensus on the Alabama flag is.
the flag is based on Florida or the Cross of Burgundy. That isn't what the article states, and that isn't what is being argued. I don't think that it's wrong for the article to note the similarities to the Florida flag and the Burgundy cross, especially when it's only a sentence. -- Spekkios ( talk) 23:23, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
deleted heading and paragraph
|
---|
Additional perspectives Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The addition was made during a period of nostalgia for the " Lost Cause" around the time of the flag's change. [1] [2] According to historian John M. Coski, the adoption of Alabama's flag coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation, [3] as other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted new state flags around the same time when those states instituted Jim Crow segregation laws themselves: [3] References
|
An editor added the above paragraph and heading at 21:08, 25 March 2022 (UTC), but another editor reverted it twice:
This is a different issue than the The Washington Post article, and contrary to what the edit summary said, there is no discernible discussion of this on the talk page. A problem I have with the deletion edit summaries, is that another editor could use the same wording as edit summaries for edits that restored the paragraph and heading.
Does anybody know what the objections are to the heading and the paragraph?-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:41, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The flag was adopted during a period of nostalgia for the "Lost Cause",[1][2] and coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation.[3] Other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted new state flags around the same time when those states instituted Jim Crow segregation laws themselves.[3]would be better.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:07, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Some historians see the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy. The flag was adopted during a period of nostalgia for the "Lost Cause",[1][2] and coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws and segregation.[3] Other former Confederate slave states, such as Mississippi and Florida, also adopted or modified their state flags around the same time.[3]Nemov ( talk) 12:51, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I believe this is an improvement over the current article. I would also like to include the image of the Hilliard's Legion flag that according to Bell Allen Ross, served as inspiration for John W.A. Sanford Jr.'s Alabama flag design. I could be WP:BOLD and make these edits, but I'd rather make sure there's some consensus before moving forward. I'm also open to suggestions for naming the second section. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 00:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Thorpewilliam and Desertambition: There is a sentence that editors are arguing about (I have applied strike though to the words that Thorpewilliam deleted and Desertambition restored):
The previous page of the source (page 79) says: The Confederate veteran generation insured the surval of the battle flag as an offical symbol of several states. The legislatures of Alabama and Florida in the 1890s adopted new state flags featuring a plain red St. Andrew's cross on a white field. The red cross on the white field was (and still is) the whole Alabama state flag.
It goes on (on pages 79-80) The legislative records offer no clue whether the new flags were intended as references to the Confederate battle flag.
There is a further discussion of this on page 80.
The statement about the 1870s is contradicted by the source, which says 1890s.
The link between white people making up the legislature of Alabama and adopting the flag is not supported by the source. It appears to be someone's personal analysis. It needs a source that explicitly makes the link between the skin colour of the people on the legislature and the adoption of that feature of the flag.
The bit of the quotation saying "Four years before Mississippi..." is irrelevant. -- Toddy1 (talk) 22:14, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans
...since the flag was adopted during a period of promotion of the "Lost Cause" of the culture of the antebellum South. From the late 1870s, the white-dominated legislature passed Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. Other former Confederate slave states, beginning with Mississippi, and followed by Florida, had also adopted new state flags around the same time that they disenfranchised African Americans and passed laws establishing Jim Crow segregation.
editors have not actually read the source in question. This is a disturbing pattern that has been discussed over and over. Please stop accusing other editors. Please stop telling other editors to learn history. It's disrespectful and presumptuous. Nemov ( talk) 03:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
formal Jim Crow segregation laws. Desertambition appears to be arguing that what the source says is all rubbish, because Jim Crow laws and racial segregation started 20 years earlier. But Wikipedia policy on verifiability is that all material in articles
must be attributable to reliable, published sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans
References
The flag changes in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida coincided with the passage of formal Jim Crow segregation laws throughout the South. Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown (
link) Cite error: The named reference "Coski8081" was defined multiple times with different content (see the
help page).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm making this a new section since the other one is difficult for anyone to read through. Parkwells added this sentence:
Following Reconstruction and withdrawal of federal troops, from the late 1870s white Democrats regained control of the Alabama and other former Confederate legislatures. [1]
Since this is an article about the Flag of Alabama I don't think this content is necessary. This is the paragraph without that addition:
Some commentators have interpreted the red saltire as a commemoration of Alabama's contributions to the Confederacy, since the flag was adopted during a period of promotion of the " Lost Cause" of the culture of the antebellum South. [2] [3] [4] Other former Confederate slave states, beginning with Mississippi, and followed by Florida, had also adopted new state flags around the same time that they disenfranchised African Americans and passed laws establishing Jim Crow segregation. [4]
That summary doesn't need additional context. This article's focus should be on the flag and its history. Coski has made the connection between the flag, Jim Crow, and the Lost Cause movement. That's what should be cited. If people want to learn more about reconstruction they can go to the articles for those topics. Thanks for the help! Nemov ( talk) 14:49, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
References
SJLR
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The flag changes in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida coincided with the passage of formal Jim Crow segregation laws throughout the South. Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Editors have done a good job fleshing out the "theories" section. Reading the article now, the discussion of the flag dimensions seems out of place in the "theories" section. The 1987 letter by the Attorney General should be moved to the "current flag" section. Anyone object to removing the AG section from theories and moving it to the "current flag" with this quote?
The legislation that created the state flag did not specify that the flag was to be square but defined the width of the bars of the cross. In 1987, the office of Alabama Attorney General Don Siegelman stated in a letter that the proper shape of the state flag is rectangular, as it had been depicted numerous times in official publications and reproductions. Despite this, the flag is still often depicted as being square, even in official publications of the U.S. federal government.
Earlier drafts leaned heavily on the AG's letter to connect the flag to the confederacy, but the additional sources do a good job at this and his letter is better suited for the dimensions section since that's the topic of his letter. This change should make two sections flow better together. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 15:54, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I moved the flag dimensions information into the current flag section where it belongs. The AG references to the regiment flag remain for now. The 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment included the Hilliard's Alabama Legion so I'm not sure it needs to be spelled out, but either way is fine. Nemov ( talk) 03:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A large majority of the article focuses on the resemblance to the Spanish colonial flag and features a picture of the flag prominently in the article, those sections are not supported by citations and every citation on the history of the flag mentions the intentional resemblance to the Confederate battle flag. The picture of the Spanish flag should be replaced with a Confederate battle flag. I believe the sections talking about the Spanish colonial flag should be removed entirely because they are highly misleading. Desertambition ( talk) 19:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
The saltire of Alabama's flag most closely resembles the saltire of the flag of Florida, which has its heritage in the Spanish Cross of Burgundy. Southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish Florida and subsequently West Florida. Although Alabama's adoption of its flag design predates that of Florida's by five years (1895), the 1868–1900 Seal of Florida depicted a white flag with a red saltire, similar to Florida's current flag or a Burgundian saltire, on top of a steamboat. Alabama's flag is officially a St. Andrew's cross as described in its legislation. This represents the cross on which St. Andrew was crucified.
The saltire of Alabama's flag most closely resembles the saltire of the flag of Florida, which has its heritage in the Spanish Cross of Burgundy.Southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish Florida and subsequently West Florida.Although Alabama's adoption of its flag design predates that of Florida's by five years (1895), the 1868–1900 Seal of Florida depicted a white flag with a red saltire, similar to Florida's current flag or a Burgundian saltire, on top of a steamboat. Alabama's flag is officially a St. Andrew's cross as described in its legislation. This represents the cross on which St. Andrew was crucified.
the flag is not based on the confederate flag but is instead based on the colonial Spanish flag? The statement in the article says that the Alabama flag closely resembles the flag of Florida, which has connection to the Burgundy cross. Anyway, I can't quote 6 pages but I guess the most relevant part is on page 134 which states
Our original-meaning analysis cannot end with the canon of fixed meaning, however, as the State of Alabama adopted a flag that bears a striking resemblance to Florida's red bars in 1895 Indeed, one commentator has even suggested that "the recently-adopted Alabama state flag" inspired Floridians to add red bars to their flag in 1900.-- Spekkios ( talk) 20:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Many of the southern states, even if they don't actually have a true Confederate symbol, have a flag that's reminiscent. Florida and Alabama have saltire flags, though they're not in the colour of the Confederate flag. That's all he says. The Denver Post article's only source for their information is this which references a the opinion of Dr. Owen. WP:DUE states that
...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint...and I hardly think that a couple of lines or an offhand statement is enough to include an authoritative statement in the lead. The article reflects what scholarly consensus on the Alabama flag is.
the flag is based on Florida or the Cross of Burgundy. That isn't what the article states, and that isn't what is being argued. I don't think that it's wrong for the article to note the similarities to the Florida flag and the Burgundy cross, especially when it's only a sentence. -- Spekkios ( talk) 23:23, 27 March 2022 (UTC)