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many Western customs (including the ownership of plantations and slaves)
The Oklahma land run was on october 22, 1992!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hahaha! The people that went in before the run were called "Sooners" the Oklahoma University name for its sports teams. I do not know whether the run opened up the whole state of Oklahoma or just the northern part which was called Oklahoma Territory. The southern part was called Indian Territory. Russ Singleton An Okie —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.8.255.201 ( talk) 01:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC).
the relocation is a notorious naked social exclusion. any other similar cases? Jackzhp 15:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"Cherokee" should redirect to Anivuia. It seems discriminatory to refer to some group as "a people" rather than "a nation" or "tribe" also.
To me it would read: The Anivuia, known by their neighbors as Chilukibi or "Cherokee", were a people with a well-developed world-view which included an integrated account of religion and society.
This has the advantage of representing a people without immediate reference to the forced placement of the historically "white" representation of indigenous people. This article is rife with such things, as are many of the articles on indigenous groups in the so-called "Americas". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euanthes ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Aye, it probably should, but not a lot of people know the name Anivuia, while the word Cherokee is almost universally recognized. Wiki appeals to the masses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.21.87 ( talk) 01:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I have (and have had ever since I first encountered the article six months ago) several problems with the first paragraph, which I have attempted to remedy, and have had both attempts reverted completely within 12 hours of my attempt to fix them. My probems are as follows: A)the term "Native American" as that term refers to anyone born in America, not just the aboriginal Americans (not to mention I know several people of aboriginal descent who find that term offensive), but I have left this alone to focus on my next problem. B) The way "civilized" is defined in this paragraph, it reads more like a political speech than an encyclopedia article. Civilized, in its most basic form, means that the culture resides in clusters that can be called cities, and because they know how to farm, not all the members are needed to procure food, as is often the case in hunter-gatherer tribes, some people are free to pursue other pursuits to advance knowledge of the whole group. This is what a civilization is, and because these five tribes, among many others throughout the Americas (hence why they are also called The Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma, but since I couldn't find a quick source for this, I'll let this one go), met this basic criteria, they were deemed civilized. Lastly, C) I have a problem with the term "white settlers" since not all the first immigrants were "white" per se. I offered two links, one to a site from a university that had a basic explanation of what civilization was, and one to the homepage for the intertribal council's homepage, and the explanation offered with the reversion (as far as I could understand) was that these were inapproprate citations, and I don't understand why. Yes, I am new, but I would like to see articles here be as accurate as possible. Many of the facts I know I don't know how to cite because they are text referances, not web ones, and I am not sure how to cite these sources, or if they would be acceptable. Can someone please help me fix my problems with the article, and let me know what I have done wrong and how I could improve? Swatfoot ( talk) 23:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand that Native American is a widly accepted (if inaccurate) term for the aboriginal Americans (one that is already changing, incidentally), which is why I've left this alone in my attempts to edit. Secondly, since I couldn't confirm or refute what I had learned back in my Oklahoma History class quickly, I dropped the part about them being "of Oklahoma." All I found was the homepage of the Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes, where one can see that at least some of the tribes have added the appelation "of Oklahoma" to their tribe name.
The main problem I want to see fixed is the problem with the apparent mis-understanding of why these tribes are called "civilized." As I have stated before, the way it is defined on the page makes the first paragraph look like a political soapbox for some aboriginal Americans, but yet Wikapedia is a source many people trust for the truth (hence how I accidentally came across this article initially. I was at the library in a foreign country, and I was asking if they had any children's books with stories from or about one or more of the five civilized tribes, and they handed me a printout of that article so I could 'learn' about the tribes). There is a good explanation of what a civilization is at the University of Richmond. The pages were originally created by students for a course they were in, and are maintained by a professer there. Although it talks about Greek and Roman civilization primarily, the definition still applies (Afterall, the word 'civilization' comes from the latin civis meaning citizen, or person who lives in a town). Some definitions I have seen state that the development of writing is an important criteria in being considered 'civilized,' but not all definitions include this, including the definition provided at Encarta. Any one of the definitions found there could be used to describe these tribes. The one singularly uniting criteria that most of the definitions I have encountered have is the fact that the people are organized into towns, ergo they are setteled down primarily into one place, ergo they need a reliable means to procure food, which would quickly run out if they just went out to hunt and gather what was available on the landscape, ergo they know how to farm. I could go into a detailed explanation of how the tribes learned to farm while they were still hunter-gatherers, but I don't think that is necessary. I am a bit cautious to attempt to correct the gross inaccuracy in the article (and there are others in later paragraphs, but minor in comparison to this one, IMNSHO) as I am not convinced it is likely to stay fixed. It has been wrong for at least six months, afterall. Thank you for your quick reply to my initial inquiry. They were helpful, and I will look into how and what to cite in more detail. I still do not completely understand how to even include external links into articles, as they do not appear as I expect when I type what I think the help screen said was the proper way to do it. If you could help me organize the information I have gathered into an "acceptable" way to improve this article, I would also be most grateful. I made an edit on another article on here, and when I went back to check the next day, it too had been modified, but only to make it mesh into the article more smoothly. That delighted me, and I am not sure how to effect that here (to create something that gets smoothed over, rather than getting yanked out in its entirety) Swatfoot ( talk) 10:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
An addendum to my previous post. I found an explanation of what civilization is here on Wikapaedia. I would like to point out that that page states, among other things, that "civilization" was not used to mean "not savage" until the 18th century, which I believe (though haven't verrified yet) is after these tribes were deemed "The Five Civilized Tribes" if they were indeed called that before their removal to Oklahoma. Even if they weren't, they likely would have been labeled as civilized or not by the people who first encountered them before this revision in the definition, and therefore became the "Five Civilized Tribes" simpily because they were the five tribes involved in the Trail of Tears. Swatfoot ( talk) 11:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the change to: The Chickasaws were one of the " Five Civilized Tribes" who sold their country to be moved to the Indian Territory from The Chickasaws were one of the " Five Civilized Tribes" who were forcibly removed to the Indian Territory
The top version seems controversial; needs citations. It's pretty widely acknowledged that the removal to Indian Territory was under duress. -- phoebe / ( talk) 18:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I replaced the dead link www.nativeamericans.com/FiveCivilizedTribes.htm (see Wayback Machine snapshot) with www.nps.gov/archive/ocmu/Tribes.htm which was probably its source. It has the same text and pictures. The NPS link is itself an archive of some articles once under the Ocmulgee National Monument site, which no longer has the same kind of articles: www.nps.gov/ocmu/historyculture/. - Colfer2 ( talk) 20:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article "Native Americans in the American Civil War" states that the Muscogee/Creek fought on the Confederate side, and that many Seminoles did as well. This article says the opposite. Anybody have any info on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gtbob12 ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Where I can ge this info?-- Kaiyr ( talk) 19:35, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
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The title isn't "Five 'Civilized' Tribes", so why is civilized in scare quotes in the lede? 216.8.186.81 ( talk) 20:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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The text at this page on the Univeristy of Arkansas Library Research Guides is almost word for word the same as the Terminology and usage section of this article (and includes text that was recently removed from that section). The Wayback Machine does not show any history for the U of Ark page, so I cannot tell how old it is. The U of Ark page does not acknowledge Wikipedia. The Terminology and usage section in its current form has been in the article for more than four years, and the core of the third paragraph has been there for more than 10 years, so I think the U of Ark page is copied from Wikipedia. Does anyone see anything different? - Donald Albury 18:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Now I can address what first attracted my attention. The last sentence of the Terminology and usage section is, "An alternative term in use is the Five Tribes of the Mississippian Culture." I wondered where that phrase came from. There are several extant tribes besides the five that once were part of the Mississippian culture (the five tribes are primarily descended from people who lived in the area of the South Appalachian Mississippian culture). The Mississippian culture is conventionally said to have ended about 1600, so I'm not sure it is proper to say that the five tribes are of that culture. I've been looking for a reliable source for usage of that term. I think we can eliminate the U of Ark page as a source, as they seem to have gotten it from Wikipedia. So far, the only other mention of the "Five Tribes of the Mississippian" that I have found is this, a recent announcement of an exhibit of works by artists of the five tribes. There is at least the possibility that the term was innovated in Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 22:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Am exercising the ability to edit my own point- I was trying to get a better idea of what our intentions are in this article. Each of the tribes' own histories is quite complex, both before and after Removal. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Carlstak, I did not have the chance to add more sources to the material about the Chickasaw and their language, and the French & Indian War before you reverted my additions. If we are going to write about the cultures and languages of these tribes, which should probably be basic to each section, I think we should state their traditional languages before noting that some members also spoke French or English. Yes, they learned other languages as they were trading with colonists who spoke those. In addition, while the Chickasaw tribal website may credit them with helping the US become an English-speaking country (after helping the British gain victory in the French & Indian War), for readers of this article, some expanded explanation of Britain's victory and French cessions, and effect on future US might be useful. That's all I was trying to do. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Maybe editors should decide if they want to organize tribal summaries by having common topics: e.g., languages, culture, & kinship systems noted (I think each had matrilineal kinship) before discussing etymologies or different histories. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Please would an interested editor assess the changes made in March 2021 at User:Broustay/Five Civilized Tribes, incorporate what is useful, blank the user page as WP:COPYARTICLE, and leave a note here when done? – Fayenatic London 12:25, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 7 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Broustay.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
many Western customs (including the ownership of plantations and slaves)
The Oklahma land run was on october 22, 1992!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hahaha! The people that went in before the run were called "Sooners" the Oklahoma University name for its sports teams. I do not know whether the run opened up the whole state of Oklahoma or just the northern part which was called Oklahoma Territory. The southern part was called Indian Territory. Russ Singleton An Okie —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.8.255.201 ( talk) 01:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC).
the relocation is a notorious naked social exclusion. any other similar cases? Jackzhp 15:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"Cherokee" should redirect to Anivuia. It seems discriminatory to refer to some group as "a people" rather than "a nation" or "tribe" also.
To me it would read: The Anivuia, known by their neighbors as Chilukibi or "Cherokee", were a people with a well-developed world-view which included an integrated account of religion and society.
This has the advantage of representing a people without immediate reference to the forced placement of the historically "white" representation of indigenous people. This article is rife with such things, as are many of the articles on indigenous groups in the so-called "Americas". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euanthes ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Aye, it probably should, but not a lot of people know the name Anivuia, while the word Cherokee is almost universally recognized. Wiki appeals to the masses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.21.87 ( talk) 01:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I have (and have had ever since I first encountered the article six months ago) several problems with the first paragraph, which I have attempted to remedy, and have had both attempts reverted completely within 12 hours of my attempt to fix them. My probems are as follows: A)the term "Native American" as that term refers to anyone born in America, not just the aboriginal Americans (not to mention I know several people of aboriginal descent who find that term offensive), but I have left this alone to focus on my next problem. B) The way "civilized" is defined in this paragraph, it reads more like a political speech than an encyclopedia article. Civilized, in its most basic form, means that the culture resides in clusters that can be called cities, and because they know how to farm, not all the members are needed to procure food, as is often the case in hunter-gatherer tribes, some people are free to pursue other pursuits to advance knowledge of the whole group. This is what a civilization is, and because these five tribes, among many others throughout the Americas (hence why they are also called The Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma, but since I couldn't find a quick source for this, I'll let this one go), met this basic criteria, they were deemed civilized. Lastly, C) I have a problem with the term "white settlers" since not all the first immigrants were "white" per se. I offered two links, one to a site from a university that had a basic explanation of what civilization was, and one to the homepage for the intertribal council's homepage, and the explanation offered with the reversion (as far as I could understand) was that these were inapproprate citations, and I don't understand why. Yes, I am new, but I would like to see articles here be as accurate as possible. Many of the facts I know I don't know how to cite because they are text referances, not web ones, and I am not sure how to cite these sources, or if they would be acceptable. Can someone please help me fix my problems with the article, and let me know what I have done wrong and how I could improve? Swatfoot ( talk) 23:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand that Native American is a widly accepted (if inaccurate) term for the aboriginal Americans (one that is already changing, incidentally), which is why I've left this alone in my attempts to edit. Secondly, since I couldn't confirm or refute what I had learned back in my Oklahoma History class quickly, I dropped the part about them being "of Oklahoma." All I found was the homepage of the Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes, where one can see that at least some of the tribes have added the appelation "of Oklahoma" to their tribe name.
The main problem I want to see fixed is the problem with the apparent mis-understanding of why these tribes are called "civilized." As I have stated before, the way it is defined on the page makes the first paragraph look like a political soapbox for some aboriginal Americans, but yet Wikapedia is a source many people trust for the truth (hence how I accidentally came across this article initially. I was at the library in a foreign country, and I was asking if they had any children's books with stories from or about one or more of the five civilized tribes, and they handed me a printout of that article so I could 'learn' about the tribes). There is a good explanation of what a civilization is at the University of Richmond. The pages were originally created by students for a course they were in, and are maintained by a professer there. Although it talks about Greek and Roman civilization primarily, the definition still applies (Afterall, the word 'civilization' comes from the latin civis meaning citizen, or person who lives in a town). Some definitions I have seen state that the development of writing is an important criteria in being considered 'civilized,' but not all definitions include this, including the definition provided at Encarta. Any one of the definitions found there could be used to describe these tribes. The one singularly uniting criteria that most of the definitions I have encountered have is the fact that the people are organized into towns, ergo they are setteled down primarily into one place, ergo they need a reliable means to procure food, which would quickly run out if they just went out to hunt and gather what was available on the landscape, ergo they know how to farm. I could go into a detailed explanation of how the tribes learned to farm while they were still hunter-gatherers, but I don't think that is necessary. I am a bit cautious to attempt to correct the gross inaccuracy in the article (and there are others in later paragraphs, but minor in comparison to this one, IMNSHO) as I am not convinced it is likely to stay fixed. It has been wrong for at least six months, afterall. Thank you for your quick reply to my initial inquiry. They were helpful, and I will look into how and what to cite in more detail. I still do not completely understand how to even include external links into articles, as they do not appear as I expect when I type what I think the help screen said was the proper way to do it. If you could help me organize the information I have gathered into an "acceptable" way to improve this article, I would also be most grateful. I made an edit on another article on here, and when I went back to check the next day, it too had been modified, but only to make it mesh into the article more smoothly. That delighted me, and I am not sure how to effect that here (to create something that gets smoothed over, rather than getting yanked out in its entirety) Swatfoot ( talk) 10:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
An addendum to my previous post. I found an explanation of what civilization is here on Wikapaedia. I would like to point out that that page states, among other things, that "civilization" was not used to mean "not savage" until the 18th century, which I believe (though haven't verrified yet) is after these tribes were deemed "The Five Civilized Tribes" if they were indeed called that before their removal to Oklahoma. Even if they weren't, they likely would have been labeled as civilized or not by the people who first encountered them before this revision in the definition, and therefore became the "Five Civilized Tribes" simpily because they were the five tribes involved in the Trail of Tears. Swatfoot ( talk) 11:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the change to: The Chickasaws were one of the " Five Civilized Tribes" who sold their country to be moved to the Indian Territory from The Chickasaws were one of the " Five Civilized Tribes" who were forcibly removed to the Indian Territory
The top version seems controversial; needs citations. It's pretty widely acknowledged that the removal to Indian Territory was under duress. -- phoebe / ( talk) 18:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I replaced the dead link www.nativeamericans.com/FiveCivilizedTribes.htm (see Wayback Machine snapshot) with www.nps.gov/archive/ocmu/Tribes.htm which was probably its source. It has the same text and pictures. The NPS link is itself an archive of some articles once under the Ocmulgee National Monument site, which no longer has the same kind of articles: www.nps.gov/ocmu/historyculture/. - Colfer2 ( talk) 20:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article "Native Americans in the American Civil War" states that the Muscogee/Creek fought on the Confederate side, and that many Seminoles did as well. This article says the opposite. Anybody have any info on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gtbob12 ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Where I can ge this info?-- Kaiyr ( talk) 19:35, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
The title isn't "Five 'Civilized' Tribes", so why is civilized in scare quotes in the lede? 216.8.186.81 ( talk) 20:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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The text at this page on the Univeristy of Arkansas Library Research Guides is almost word for word the same as the Terminology and usage section of this article (and includes text that was recently removed from that section). The Wayback Machine does not show any history for the U of Ark page, so I cannot tell how old it is. The U of Ark page does not acknowledge Wikipedia. The Terminology and usage section in its current form has been in the article for more than four years, and the core of the third paragraph has been there for more than 10 years, so I think the U of Ark page is copied from Wikipedia. Does anyone see anything different? - Donald Albury 18:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Now I can address what first attracted my attention. The last sentence of the Terminology and usage section is, "An alternative term in use is the Five Tribes of the Mississippian Culture." I wondered where that phrase came from. There are several extant tribes besides the five that once were part of the Mississippian culture (the five tribes are primarily descended from people who lived in the area of the South Appalachian Mississippian culture). The Mississippian culture is conventionally said to have ended about 1600, so I'm not sure it is proper to say that the five tribes are of that culture. I've been looking for a reliable source for usage of that term. I think we can eliminate the U of Ark page as a source, as they seem to have gotten it from Wikipedia. So far, the only other mention of the "Five Tribes of the Mississippian" that I have found is this, a recent announcement of an exhibit of works by artists of the five tribes. There is at least the possibility that the term was innovated in Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 22:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Am exercising the ability to edit my own point- I was trying to get a better idea of what our intentions are in this article. Each of the tribes' own histories is quite complex, both before and after Removal. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Carlstak, I did not have the chance to add more sources to the material about the Chickasaw and their language, and the French & Indian War before you reverted my additions. If we are going to write about the cultures and languages of these tribes, which should probably be basic to each section, I think we should state their traditional languages before noting that some members also spoke French or English. Yes, they learned other languages as they were trading with colonists who spoke those. In addition, while the Chickasaw tribal website may credit them with helping the US become an English-speaking country (after helping the British gain victory in the French & Indian War), for readers of this article, some expanded explanation of Britain's victory and French cessions, and effect on future US might be useful. That's all I was trying to do. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Maybe editors should decide if they want to organize tribal summaries by having common topics: e.g., languages, culture, & kinship systems noted (I think each had matrilineal kinship) before discussing etymologies or different histories. Parkwells ( talk) 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Please would an interested editor assess the changes made in March 2021 at User:Broustay/Five Civilized Tribes, incorporate what is useful, blank the user page as WP:COPYARTICLE, and leave a note here when done? – Fayenatic London 12:25, 25 February 2023 (UTC)