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@ Vaze50 and Humongous125: As you two are insisting that re-appointed ministers should be listed as being appointed a year ago to a Ministry that starts today, please take the time to justify yourselves here. I'm not going to keep correcting it, but this is totally constitutionally wrong and misleading to readers. James F. (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
@ Jdforrester and Humongous125: Your argument, frankly, is absolute nonsense. A Secretary of State does not cease to be in their role the moment a new Prime Minister is appointed, they are either retained or removed. Stephen Barclay did not stop being Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union between the hours of 3.30pm and 7.00pm today because Boris Johnson replaced Theresa May. Neither Barclay or Hancock have been "re-appointed" in a literal sense, because they never left their job.
This is not "constitutionally wrong" in the slightest - what on earth is your source for that? There is none. Please leave as it is. Vaze50 (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't First Secretary of State mean Raab ranks second, rather than third, as "First Secretary" implies ranking over all other Cabinet officers. Or is it just a meaningless title? 98.10.165.90 ( talk) 14:19, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible for not every use of the abbreviation MP to be a hyperlink? It looks a bit much. I would change it, but I'm a little unsure of the template rules. Farleysmaster ( talk) 13:29, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@ Vaze50, Humongous125, Farleysmaster, Nizolan, and Jdforrester: I have added the most recent appointments of the new PM, however, I am unable to add the colour indicating Lord of MP. Please could somebody assist and add the relevant colours. Thanks. PoliceSheep99 ( talk) 20:34, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Where we have minority with DUP Confidence and Supply. Should this be changed to reflect loss of majority? JamesVilla44 ( talk) 16:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
The reason I changed it to an earlier picture was because, to my knowledge, it was used practically everywhere else, and it seemed to be the closest to an official portrait for the prime minister that we have. Should we do an RFC? Lahndalot ( talk) 02:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
While it says "Jo Johnson resigned from the cabinet on 5 September 2019..." should it not actually say that Jo Johnson resigned as a minister? While he attended cabinet, he was not a full member of it (indeed I think he only attended when matters relevant to his portfolio were being discussed). Dunarc ( talk) 22:40, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
While there are views on whether Javid or Raab should be second to Johnson, I've got a different proposition - Gove should go second.
First, Gove represented the Treasury Bench to give remarks via a point of order after Bercow's statement on Sep 9 indicating that he would resign while Raab was present. Second, per parliament.uk, Gove was ranked above Javid and Raab in Her Majesty's Government.
I therefore reckon the reason why the list the Government released in July 2019 shows Gove below Javid and Raab is to first announce the occupants of the Great Offices of State, in which the public is usually more interested, but not to reveal ranks within the cabinet. I believe this does not contradict discussions above that Chancellors (of the Exchequer and of the Duchy of Lancaster) are not Secretaries of State so the First Secretary of State has superiority over other Secretaries of State but none over Chancellors - that is why Raab is always ranked above Patel (Secretary of State for the Home Department). OliWatson ( talk) 19:10, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
It seems clear that the other page is an inadvertent redundant content fork created after this page with a non-standard title, many fewer contributors, and much less content. As it looks not to be contentious I'm going to go ahead and work through my first merge. Easily undone if I've slipped up. Captainllama ( talk) 17:50, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Please consider incorporating material from the above draft submission into this article. Drafts are eligible for deletion after 6 months of inactivity. ~ Kvng ( talk) 13:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
@ RGloucester: has reverted 4 related edits: [3] [4] [5] [6]. Their edit summary says "incorrect formatting"; my edits were clearly summarised: "links to current peers formatted per MOS:SURNAME and MOS:HON" with the relevant MOS sections linked. I would be interested to know precisely which section of the MOS prescribes the use of proper formal styles in these contexts. Long-standing-ness is no reason. Given that I have provided two links to the Manual of Style, what is the guideline against my edits? DBD 16:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
@ RGloucester: I think our next step would be to ask at WP:THIRD; would that have your consent? DBD 19:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Following a successful proposal for the merging of List of departures from the Truss ministry, this article similarly features a very short list that doesn't warrant its own existence and can easily be incorporated in the First Johnson ministry. Yeoutie ( talk) 21:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
First Johnson ministry article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This page is under the stewardship of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom; changes to it should reflect consensus. If you are planning to make any significant changes, please discuss them first, and also read the list of conventions for British ministry articles. |
@ Vaze50 and Humongous125: As you two are insisting that re-appointed ministers should be listed as being appointed a year ago to a Ministry that starts today, please take the time to justify yourselves here. I'm not going to keep correcting it, but this is totally constitutionally wrong and misleading to readers. James F. (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
@ Jdforrester and Humongous125: Your argument, frankly, is absolute nonsense. A Secretary of State does not cease to be in their role the moment a new Prime Minister is appointed, they are either retained or removed. Stephen Barclay did not stop being Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union between the hours of 3.30pm and 7.00pm today because Boris Johnson replaced Theresa May. Neither Barclay or Hancock have been "re-appointed" in a literal sense, because they never left their job.
This is not "constitutionally wrong" in the slightest - what on earth is your source for that? There is none. Please leave as it is. Vaze50 (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't First Secretary of State mean Raab ranks second, rather than third, as "First Secretary" implies ranking over all other Cabinet officers. Or is it just a meaningless title? 98.10.165.90 ( talk) 14:19, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible for not every use of the abbreviation MP to be a hyperlink? It looks a bit much. I would change it, but I'm a little unsure of the template rules. Farleysmaster ( talk) 13:29, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@ Vaze50, Humongous125, Farleysmaster, Nizolan, and Jdforrester: I have added the most recent appointments of the new PM, however, I am unable to add the colour indicating Lord of MP. Please could somebody assist and add the relevant colours. Thanks. PoliceSheep99 ( talk) 20:34, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Where we have minority with DUP Confidence and Supply. Should this be changed to reflect loss of majority? JamesVilla44 ( talk) 16:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
The reason I changed it to an earlier picture was because, to my knowledge, it was used practically everywhere else, and it seemed to be the closest to an official portrait for the prime minister that we have. Should we do an RFC? Lahndalot ( talk) 02:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
While it says "Jo Johnson resigned from the cabinet on 5 September 2019..." should it not actually say that Jo Johnson resigned as a minister? While he attended cabinet, he was not a full member of it (indeed I think he only attended when matters relevant to his portfolio were being discussed). Dunarc ( talk) 22:40, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
While there are views on whether Javid or Raab should be second to Johnson, I've got a different proposition - Gove should go second.
First, Gove represented the Treasury Bench to give remarks via a point of order after Bercow's statement on Sep 9 indicating that he would resign while Raab was present. Second, per parliament.uk, Gove was ranked above Javid and Raab in Her Majesty's Government.
I therefore reckon the reason why the list the Government released in July 2019 shows Gove below Javid and Raab is to first announce the occupants of the Great Offices of State, in which the public is usually more interested, but not to reveal ranks within the cabinet. I believe this does not contradict discussions above that Chancellors (of the Exchequer and of the Duchy of Lancaster) are not Secretaries of State so the First Secretary of State has superiority over other Secretaries of State but none over Chancellors - that is why Raab is always ranked above Patel (Secretary of State for the Home Department). OliWatson ( talk) 19:10, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
It seems clear that the other page is an inadvertent redundant content fork created after this page with a non-standard title, many fewer contributors, and much less content. As it looks not to be contentious I'm going to go ahead and work through my first merge. Easily undone if I've slipped up. Captainllama ( talk) 17:50, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Please consider incorporating material from the above draft submission into this article. Drafts are eligible for deletion after 6 months of inactivity. ~ Kvng ( talk) 13:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
@ RGloucester: has reverted 4 related edits: [3] [4] [5] [6]. Their edit summary says "incorrect formatting"; my edits were clearly summarised: "links to current peers formatted per MOS:SURNAME and MOS:HON" with the relevant MOS sections linked. I would be interested to know precisely which section of the MOS prescribes the use of proper formal styles in these contexts. Long-standing-ness is no reason. Given that I have provided two links to the Manual of Style, what is the guideline against my edits? DBD 16:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
@ RGloucester: I think our next step would be to ask at WP:THIRD; would that have your consent? DBD 19:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Following a successful proposal for the merging of List of departures from the Truss ministry, this article similarly features a very short list that doesn't warrant its own existence and can easily be incorporated in the First Johnson ministry. Yeoutie ( talk) 21:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)