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This article is totaly sided with the Spanish official version that pinpoints it as romantic versions all historical facts that contradicts the arranged official version of those absolutist and fanatic Basques that wanted the Inquisition.
To rewrite it there is going to be needed a lot of work. It is so naif that even deny the importance of the suppression effort of the Basque Foral system. It also forgets the English and French interest in the comercial rutes and the American colonnies. Idiazabal 12:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Even though, the fact that Carlos V did not say a word about "Fueros" (which, when Carlist war began were still on) is quite forgotten. BTW, it should be noticed that most Historians say that the Abrazo de Vegara (Vergara Treaty) did not end the war, but just on the troops which Maroto leaded. That make imposible to keep on fighting the rest of Carlist "Army" in that front (whose troops were quite fed up with the war), so it leaded to the end of hostilities there. As it was noticed, Ramon Cabrera kept on fighting months before Vergara.
This article is too Northern Front-Basque centered. We should talk about the other fronts of the War, Carlist Expeditions, etc. -- 80.103.128.180 01:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The chapter referring to the basque provinces and the upraising is politically biased. The writer is clearly influenced by a basque nationalist view.
Clearly, the evolution of the spanish economic pattern was related with the basque participation in the upraising. But it shouldn´t be considered an exclusive or predominant reason, as the upraising was too solidly established in other regions such as Galicia, Castilla, Catalonia or Aragon. In fact, only rurality, extreme catholicism and conservadurism may be seen as common patterns in the main Carlist regions.
The ascension of Santander may be a reason of economic decline in the basque ports. But, incidentally, none of the ports supported the carlist movement. Neither Bilbao nor San Sebastian were ever conquered by the Carlists.
Finally, it is searched an "anti-basque" purpose in the spanish politics of the late XVIIIth century. The Spanish court had no reason to destroy economically any region of the country. The first years of the XIXth century were years of general ruin and destruction after the Independence War. The (limited) ascension of Santander affected mainly to Cadiz, which hold the previous monopoly of american commerce. The main carlist leaders in the Basque Provinces were ex-guerrilleros, all fighting 4 years fiercely for the spanish independence and the Borbon kings.
Finally, as far as I know, the fuero of Biscay never applied in Santander. This assertion should be re-examined.
As a conclusion, the chapter is part of the political discourse of the basque nationalist, whishing to demonstrate the existence of an historical conflict between Spain and the Basque Provinces.
-I think the chapter about "basque reasons for carlist uprising" should be completely deleted, there is no reason for talking about basque reasons and not about catalonian, castilian, aragonese, etc; saying that Biscay was divided to let Castile have a sea port in Santander is not true, since Santander province didn´t belong to Biscay; the reference about convention war is wrong, since it is ridiculous thinking of Godoy siding with the english against the basques (then just a pair of spanish provinces),the writer should read a little more about convention war. And finally it is ridiculous saying that spanish commercial routes and power were mainly sustained by the basque ports, commercial navy and companies, since the main ports, as everybody knows, were Cadiz, Coruña, Seville, Valencia, Barcelona, and also Bilbao and San Sebastian (but not mainly). Layo 10:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The cross of Burgundy was marked down as the Carlist flag in the mid-1930s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 12:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The English for desamortización is perhaps disengagement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 12:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Deleted a large chunk of unreferenced, anti-basque conspiracy-theory prose with no historic value and little relevance to the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.4.112.58 ( talk) 12:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
In fact 1833-1840. Dont't forget Ramón Cabrera. Eastern Carlist forces kept on fighting after the Treaty of Vergara. Northern Carlists gave up in 1839.
Sorry, but has Wikipedia become Stormfront now? What relevance is there in mentioning the religious affiliation (not one, but twice) of the Rothschilds? In the Greek Debt Crisis article is it mentioned that "Protestant financiers" in Frankfurt bailed the bankrupt Greek state out? Keep this Nazi-esque crap out of Wikipedia! DojoIrl ( talk) 02:09, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
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Hey y'all! I was reading this article and while I found it fascinating and really nice, I noticed it is marked as a "Start-class" article in the Level 5 History subsection. Full disclosure: I'm of Spanish descent and was raised in the Basque country (whose region I feel is over-emphasized to an extent in this article). Anyways, as I want to help improve this but I'm only a beginner editor I was wondering if there were any recommendations of other articles I should base my work off. The American Civil War feels a bit to complex but it is one of my favorite articles. Any other suggestions?
-- A. C. Santacruz ( talk) 21:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Iñaki LL recently reverted an edit by Raderich diff claiming what would seem as a prominent and popular cause for revolt, but failed to cite any source at all. This is especially wrong because academic sources do not agree with the content re-introduced, as can be seen in the text I wrote in my sandbox, where I am working on a reworking of this article. See User:A._C._Santacruz/sandbox#The_contenders on the reasons for Carlist support in the Maestrazgo and Catalonia. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 06:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Raderich: I reverted your edit as No improvement really, on WP:Preserve grounds. No verifiability was added and you added a misleading Spanish nominal administrative category instead, Basque Provinces, not accounting for the Basque territorial reality on the ground, as you know. Thanks Iñaki LL ( talk) 21:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Raderich, I was arguing about implying Navarre does not have some Basque roots, but I most definitely agree with using Navarre when referring to Navarrese troops. I strongly believe that we should avoid giving a Basque character to the conflict, which it certainly did not have across the board. In the case of the edit that is disputed, I agree with you that until strong sources are provided to support the characterization of whole of Navarre as grouped with the Basque country in the sentences edited, it should be left stand-alone as "Basque [something] and Navarre". I would suggest "the modern Basque Country (autonomous region) and Navarre" or just explicitly listing the actual provinces as "the Basque provinces of Alava, Gipuzkoa, and Biscay, as well as the province of Navarre of mixed Basque-Spanish culture." A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 11:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the largest source of support for Carlos were the regions equivalent to the modern-day Basque and Navarrese autonomous community. Both of them historically enjoyed special rights that maintained their Basque institutions, social structure, and laws — which were being threatened by the Liberal reforms of the past few decades in Spain. The traditionalism of Carlos thus appealed to these regions, but other reasons have also been identified for his larger popular support in these regions. Firstly, the Basque region had been affected economically and socially by ... . Secondly, the social structure of the Basque populations in these regions heavily depended on Catholic parishes, which in the face of the anti-clericalism of the Liberal reformers ... . Thirdly, the geography of the region meant it was much easier than in the rest of Spain for farmers to take up arms temporarily, return to tend their crops, and repeat that cycle when profitable or possible ... . [a] Thus, the Basque populations in these two regions had many reasons to support the insurgency.
References
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cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
I think it is appropiate to stress (I mean, to include in some way) a government/rebel dichotomy as Carlists barely hanged on rural areas in the North and the North East. They did not even hold control of big cities in their core territories (not to say they were quite far from the centre of political power). Failing to do that, the lead gives a misleading outline of the topic. Amateur, so to speak. And last but not least, defenders of the Ancien régime are better described in this context as reactionaries rather than as "Conservatives", which is a broad category arguably shared by many on the opposing side.--Asqueladd ( talk) 19:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
The section gives way too much prominence to a sense of Basque identity that is not commensurate to what I have found in sources. Additionally it kind of glorifies the fueros in a way that's completely unencyclopedic (see John F. Bacon (Six years in Biscay..., 1838) considers the Basques living to the north of the Ebro river as free citizens, as compared to the Spanish whom he sees as "a mere flock" liable to be mistreated by their masters
).
A. C. Santacruz ⁂
Please ping me!
11:31, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is totaly sided with the Spanish official version that pinpoints it as romantic versions all historical facts that contradicts the arranged official version of those absolutist and fanatic Basques that wanted the Inquisition.
To rewrite it there is going to be needed a lot of work. It is so naif that even deny the importance of the suppression effort of the Basque Foral system. It also forgets the English and French interest in the comercial rutes and the American colonnies. Idiazabal 12:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Even though, the fact that Carlos V did not say a word about "Fueros" (which, when Carlist war began were still on) is quite forgotten. BTW, it should be noticed that most Historians say that the Abrazo de Vegara (Vergara Treaty) did not end the war, but just on the troops which Maroto leaded. That make imposible to keep on fighting the rest of Carlist "Army" in that front (whose troops were quite fed up with the war), so it leaded to the end of hostilities there. As it was noticed, Ramon Cabrera kept on fighting months before Vergara.
This article is too Northern Front-Basque centered. We should talk about the other fronts of the War, Carlist Expeditions, etc. -- 80.103.128.180 01:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The chapter referring to the basque provinces and the upraising is politically biased. The writer is clearly influenced by a basque nationalist view.
Clearly, the evolution of the spanish economic pattern was related with the basque participation in the upraising. But it shouldn´t be considered an exclusive or predominant reason, as the upraising was too solidly established in other regions such as Galicia, Castilla, Catalonia or Aragon. In fact, only rurality, extreme catholicism and conservadurism may be seen as common patterns in the main Carlist regions.
The ascension of Santander may be a reason of economic decline in the basque ports. But, incidentally, none of the ports supported the carlist movement. Neither Bilbao nor San Sebastian were ever conquered by the Carlists.
Finally, it is searched an "anti-basque" purpose in the spanish politics of the late XVIIIth century. The Spanish court had no reason to destroy economically any region of the country. The first years of the XIXth century were years of general ruin and destruction after the Independence War. The (limited) ascension of Santander affected mainly to Cadiz, which hold the previous monopoly of american commerce. The main carlist leaders in the Basque Provinces were ex-guerrilleros, all fighting 4 years fiercely for the spanish independence and the Borbon kings.
Finally, as far as I know, the fuero of Biscay never applied in Santander. This assertion should be re-examined.
As a conclusion, the chapter is part of the political discourse of the basque nationalist, whishing to demonstrate the existence of an historical conflict between Spain and the Basque Provinces.
-I think the chapter about "basque reasons for carlist uprising" should be completely deleted, there is no reason for talking about basque reasons and not about catalonian, castilian, aragonese, etc; saying that Biscay was divided to let Castile have a sea port in Santander is not true, since Santander province didn´t belong to Biscay; the reference about convention war is wrong, since it is ridiculous thinking of Godoy siding with the english against the basques (then just a pair of spanish provinces),the writer should read a little more about convention war. And finally it is ridiculous saying that spanish commercial routes and power were mainly sustained by the basque ports, commercial navy and companies, since the main ports, as everybody knows, were Cadiz, Coruña, Seville, Valencia, Barcelona, and also Bilbao and San Sebastian (but not mainly). Layo 10:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The cross of Burgundy was marked down as the Carlist flag in the mid-1930s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 12:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The English for desamortización is perhaps disengagement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 12:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Deleted a large chunk of unreferenced, anti-basque conspiracy-theory prose with no historic value and little relevance to the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.4.112.58 ( talk) 12:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
In fact 1833-1840. Dont't forget Ramón Cabrera. Eastern Carlist forces kept on fighting after the Treaty of Vergara. Northern Carlists gave up in 1839.
Sorry, but has Wikipedia become Stormfront now? What relevance is there in mentioning the religious affiliation (not one, but twice) of the Rothschilds? In the Greek Debt Crisis article is it mentioned that "Protestant financiers" in Frankfurt bailed the bankrupt Greek state out? Keep this Nazi-esque crap out of Wikipedia! DojoIrl ( talk) 02:09, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on First Carlist War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:34, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hey y'all! I was reading this article and while I found it fascinating and really nice, I noticed it is marked as a "Start-class" article in the Level 5 History subsection. Full disclosure: I'm of Spanish descent and was raised in the Basque country (whose region I feel is over-emphasized to an extent in this article). Anyways, as I want to help improve this but I'm only a beginner editor I was wondering if there were any recommendations of other articles I should base my work off. The American Civil War feels a bit to complex but it is one of my favorite articles. Any other suggestions?
-- A. C. Santacruz ( talk) 21:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Iñaki LL recently reverted an edit by Raderich diff claiming what would seem as a prominent and popular cause for revolt, but failed to cite any source at all. This is especially wrong because academic sources do not agree with the content re-introduced, as can be seen in the text I wrote in my sandbox, where I am working on a reworking of this article. See User:A._C._Santacruz/sandbox#The_contenders on the reasons for Carlist support in the Maestrazgo and Catalonia. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 06:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Raderich: I reverted your edit as No improvement really, on WP:Preserve grounds. No verifiability was added and you added a misleading Spanish nominal administrative category instead, Basque Provinces, not accounting for the Basque territorial reality on the ground, as you know. Thanks Iñaki LL ( talk) 21:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Raderich, I was arguing about implying Navarre does not have some Basque roots, but I most definitely agree with using Navarre when referring to Navarrese troops. I strongly believe that we should avoid giving a Basque character to the conflict, which it certainly did not have across the board. In the case of the edit that is disputed, I agree with you that until strong sources are provided to support the characterization of whole of Navarre as grouped with the Basque country in the sentences edited, it should be left stand-alone as "Basque [something] and Navarre". I would suggest "the modern Basque Country (autonomous region) and Navarre" or just explicitly listing the actual provinces as "the Basque provinces of Alava, Gipuzkoa, and Biscay, as well as the province of Navarre of mixed Basque-Spanish culture." A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 11:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the largest source of support for Carlos were the regions equivalent to the modern-day Basque and Navarrese autonomous community. Both of them historically enjoyed special rights that maintained their Basque institutions, social structure, and laws — which were being threatened by the Liberal reforms of the past few decades in Spain. The traditionalism of Carlos thus appealed to these regions, but other reasons have also been identified for his larger popular support in these regions. Firstly, the Basque region had been affected economically and socially by ... . Secondly, the social structure of the Basque populations in these regions heavily depended on Catholic parishes, which in the face of the anti-clericalism of the Liberal reformers ... . Thirdly, the geography of the region meant it was much easier than in the rest of Spain for farmers to take up arms temporarily, return to tend their crops, and repeat that cycle when profitable or possible ... . [a] Thus, the Basque populations in these two regions had many reasons to support the insurgency.
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
I think it is appropiate to stress (I mean, to include in some way) a government/rebel dichotomy as Carlists barely hanged on rural areas in the North and the North East. They did not even hold control of big cities in their core territories (not to say they were quite far from the centre of political power). Failing to do that, the lead gives a misleading outline of the topic. Amateur, so to speak. And last but not least, defenders of the Ancien régime are better described in this context as reactionaries rather than as "Conservatives", which is a broad category arguably shared by many on the opposing side.--Asqueladd ( talk) 19:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
The section gives way too much prominence to a sense of Basque identity that is not commensurate to what I have found in sources. Additionally it kind of glorifies the fueros in a way that's completely unencyclopedic (see John F. Bacon (Six years in Biscay..., 1838) considers the Basques living to the north of the Ebro river as free citizens, as compared to the Spanish whom he sees as "a mere flock" liable to be mistreated by their masters
).
A. C. Santacruz ⁂
Please ping me!
11:31, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).