![]() | Finnish–Novgorodian wars was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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June 7, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the
Finnish-Novgorodian Wars only ended with the
Swedish conquest of Finland in 1249, resulting in the
Swedish-Novgorodian Wars? | ||||||||||||
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The term is a neologism; it has no usage in scholarly literature. There was no Finnish state at the period, so apply the term "war" to the conflicts in question is rather misleading. -- Ghirla -трёп- 16:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
There wasn't a Russian state at this time neither. Still the Novgorodians were Russians. Since when has an independent state been needed for a people to exist? -- 88.114.235.214 14:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In Finnish wikipedia, the name "jäämit" is used, meaning simply "Yam/Yem" - "Wars between Novgorod and the Yam". In late Iron Age/early Medieval context "Finnish" and "Finland"" meant mainly Finns proper, the south western Finnish tribe. The Yam is often identified with the Tavastians, although we cannot be sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmarkusp ( talk • contribs) 02:23, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hehee, was there any Novgorodian State in 1042? I suggest Ghirla to take also little better study to history. Novgorod was in 1042 only one Principality (merely a declining "town") under Kywa (Kijev) Rosh. One quite reliable source list this war against Jems as a robbery expedition against the Finno Ugrian tribe living in the upper sources of Vienajoki. Thus, it could also have been the first fur robbery raid against Perma or Syrjäns (Komis). Just for your knowledge, Syrjääni (People living far away in the edge) meant originally Syrjässä asuvat or Syrjäläiset ( taken from Hämes side living in land which was far away from Vienajoki). If they would have attacked against the Baltic Finnish tribe in Häme located in the Peninsula of Suomi (Finland), they would have had attacked against Karelians at first even to get closer battle with the Häme tribe. Where is a mention in old Russian sources, written later, of war between Kywa Rosh and Karelians in 1042?
The first Orthodox Archbishop in Rostov, Leontij, mentions the tribes which spoke Russian as follows:
- Poljans
- Dreuljans
- Polotshans
- Dregovitshes
- Severjans
- Buzhans
- Novgorodians
All other spoke other languages than Russian (Old Slavonic).
Where there any Russian State at that moment? Only small Principalities, all smashed by Batu in 1237 - 1240. Then more than 200 years "Vassal Principalities" under Mongol - Tatars. The first Russian State can be said to have born with Romanovs in 1613. Please use Principalities for all other feodal Principalities and Commercial Republic of Novgorod when it exsisted. The Imperial Russian State 1613 - 1917. Sorry, but without knowledge of Finno Ugrian history you cannot write the history of Slavonic Russia.
JN
I don't want to open a can of worms, and it is not a big deal, so I won't change it in the article, but isn't Finn a bit ambiguous in this time and place? West Norse sources, and probably the Swedish rune stones as well, use Finn and Finland in the meaning Saami, and the place called Finland during the Middle Ages was the province of Varsinais-Suomi.-- Berig 09:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Dispute whether the Yam were the same as the Yem requires a reference (will get it as I remember where I got that info). The dispute itself is not difficult to come in terms with as it stems from the following facts:
Based on this, it has been speculated that the Yam were an altogether different people somewhere in the southern plains of Russia. And a reference would be nice. -- Drieakko 15:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
To continue the previous post, Izhorians, another Finnic people living in between the Novgorodian area and Finns, are also omitted from the Primary Chronicle. The probable reason why Novgorod had not yet been able to spread its influence on the areas of Karelians and Izhorians was the fact that the strategic fortress of Staraya Ladoga was still in Swedish possession, which ended only sometime later in the 11th century. Tensions between Finns and Novgorod seem to have escalated to war around the same time that the Swedish-Novgorodian relations soured and Novgorod took over rivers flowing in and out of Lake Ladoga latest in the early 12th century. -- Drieakko 11:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The words Yam and Yem are referring to finnish tribe. Karelians use the degenerating word "Jämi" for them. (This is because members of this tribe have tendency to be quiet and look unhappy where as karelians are talkative to annoying extend.) Russians cant hear the last "i", they dont have letter for "ä" sound and russian "Y" is same as finnish "J". The tribe they are referring to is called "hämäläiset" form "häme" in modern finnish. (Tavastians form Tavast in swedish).
Another thing in the cronicles are the "finns" or "fenni" if you want to use the original latin form. This refers to the tribe that swedish have been in contact for a long time. But the own name for them is "suomi" witch comes from baltic (estonian) language and means "someone that comes from that land covered with water". So hence the name of the place where they live is "Varsinais suomi" eg "real/proper finland" and so tribe is "suomi" eg "finn".
Karelian isnt original name either. But when you know the original tribe lives in plase called "Karjaa" or "Karjala" witch means "place for cattle"...
So there we got 3 tribes that made attacks to novgorod. Yems, Karelians and Finns... Or "Jäämit", "Karjalalaiset" ja "Suomalaiset". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.177.30 ( talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to inform you that this article has passed it's GA candidancy. I think that the article meets the GA criteria. However, there are a few things that could use improvement like the lead section needs expansion and there are some un cited paragrahphs that need to be cited. So congratulations and I hope this article can improve more. Kyriakos 02:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The article is based mostly on primary sources (like Novgorod chronicle). it's against original research rule, Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources -- ML 15:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Here are the points that need to be addressed:
If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 21:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I have delisted the article as a GA at this time since the above issues were not addressed. If they are fixed at some point, please renominate the article again at WP:GAN, it should have little problems passing. If you disagree with this review you can seek an alternate assessment at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page. I have modified the page history to reflect this review. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 22:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Nevsky.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 21:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | Finnish–Novgorodian wars was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
June 7, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the
Finnish-Novgorodian Wars only ended with the
Swedish conquest of Finland in 1249, resulting in the
Swedish-Novgorodian Wars? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The term is a neologism; it has no usage in scholarly literature. There was no Finnish state at the period, so apply the term "war" to the conflicts in question is rather misleading. -- Ghirla -трёп- 16:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
There wasn't a Russian state at this time neither. Still the Novgorodians were Russians. Since when has an independent state been needed for a people to exist? -- 88.114.235.214 14:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In Finnish wikipedia, the name "jäämit" is used, meaning simply "Yam/Yem" - "Wars between Novgorod and the Yam". In late Iron Age/early Medieval context "Finnish" and "Finland"" meant mainly Finns proper, the south western Finnish tribe. The Yam is often identified with the Tavastians, although we cannot be sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmarkusp ( talk • contribs) 02:23, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hehee, was there any Novgorodian State in 1042? I suggest Ghirla to take also little better study to history. Novgorod was in 1042 only one Principality (merely a declining "town") under Kywa (Kijev) Rosh. One quite reliable source list this war against Jems as a robbery expedition against the Finno Ugrian tribe living in the upper sources of Vienajoki. Thus, it could also have been the first fur robbery raid against Perma or Syrjäns (Komis). Just for your knowledge, Syrjääni (People living far away in the edge) meant originally Syrjässä asuvat or Syrjäläiset ( taken from Hämes side living in land which was far away from Vienajoki). If they would have attacked against the Baltic Finnish tribe in Häme located in the Peninsula of Suomi (Finland), they would have had attacked against Karelians at first even to get closer battle with the Häme tribe. Where is a mention in old Russian sources, written later, of war between Kywa Rosh and Karelians in 1042?
The first Orthodox Archbishop in Rostov, Leontij, mentions the tribes which spoke Russian as follows:
- Poljans
- Dreuljans
- Polotshans
- Dregovitshes
- Severjans
- Buzhans
- Novgorodians
All other spoke other languages than Russian (Old Slavonic).
Where there any Russian State at that moment? Only small Principalities, all smashed by Batu in 1237 - 1240. Then more than 200 years "Vassal Principalities" under Mongol - Tatars. The first Russian State can be said to have born with Romanovs in 1613. Please use Principalities for all other feodal Principalities and Commercial Republic of Novgorod when it exsisted. The Imperial Russian State 1613 - 1917. Sorry, but without knowledge of Finno Ugrian history you cannot write the history of Slavonic Russia.
JN
I don't want to open a can of worms, and it is not a big deal, so I won't change it in the article, but isn't Finn a bit ambiguous in this time and place? West Norse sources, and probably the Swedish rune stones as well, use Finn and Finland in the meaning Saami, and the place called Finland during the Middle Ages was the province of Varsinais-Suomi.-- Berig 09:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Dispute whether the Yam were the same as the Yem requires a reference (will get it as I remember where I got that info). The dispute itself is not difficult to come in terms with as it stems from the following facts:
Based on this, it has been speculated that the Yam were an altogether different people somewhere in the southern plains of Russia. And a reference would be nice. -- Drieakko 15:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
To continue the previous post, Izhorians, another Finnic people living in between the Novgorodian area and Finns, are also omitted from the Primary Chronicle. The probable reason why Novgorod had not yet been able to spread its influence on the areas of Karelians and Izhorians was the fact that the strategic fortress of Staraya Ladoga was still in Swedish possession, which ended only sometime later in the 11th century. Tensions between Finns and Novgorod seem to have escalated to war around the same time that the Swedish-Novgorodian relations soured and Novgorod took over rivers flowing in and out of Lake Ladoga latest in the early 12th century. -- Drieakko 11:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The words Yam and Yem are referring to finnish tribe. Karelians use the degenerating word "Jämi" for them. (This is because members of this tribe have tendency to be quiet and look unhappy where as karelians are talkative to annoying extend.) Russians cant hear the last "i", they dont have letter for "ä" sound and russian "Y" is same as finnish "J". The tribe they are referring to is called "hämäläiset" form "häme" in modern finnish. (Tavastians form Tavast in swedish).
Another thing in the cronicles are the "finns" or "fenni" if you want to use the original latin form. This refers to the tribe that swedish have been in contact for a long time. But the own name for them is "suomi" witch comes from baltic (estonian) language and means "someone that comes from that land covered with water". So hence the name of the place where they live is "Varsinais suomi" eg "real/proper finland" and so tribe is "suomi" eg "finn".
Karelian isnt original name either. But when you know the original tribe lives in plase called "Karjaa" or "Karjala" witch means "place for cattle"...
So there we got 3 tribes that made attacks to novgorod. Yems, Karelians and Finns... Or "Jäämit", "Karjalalaiset" ja "Suomalaiset". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.177.30 ( talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to inform you that this article has passed it's GA candidancy. I think that the article meets the GA criteria. However, there are a few things that could use improvement like the lead section needs expansion and there are some un cited paragrahphs that need to be cited. So congratulations and I hope this article can improve more. Kyriakos 02:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The article is based mostly on primary sources (like Novgorod chronicle). it's against original research rule, Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources -- ML 15:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Here are the points that need to be addressed:
If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 21:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I have delisted the article as a GA at this time since the above issues were not addressed. If they are fixed at some point, please renominate the article again at WP:GAN, it should have little problems passing. If you disagree with this review you can seek an alternate assessment at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page. I have modified the page history to reflect this review. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 22:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Nevsky.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 21:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:40, 31 December 2016 (UTC)