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I like the Murto shot. There is a need for good standstill conformation shots, there are already a lot of nice trotting photos, though if one of the three you proposed is added, either new or to replace something else, I suggest File:Helmi.jpg as the best quality image, though the File:Eri-Aaroni.JPG may be of use to replace a different historical image, the horse is gorgeous. I made some other tweaks, or will be making some other tweaks. Montanabw (talk) 19:10, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
First off, the article is huge! Per WP:Page size, readers may tire of reading a page longer than 6,000 to 10,000 words - this one (using Dr.pda's prose size tool) is over 11,000. Montana's suggestion about trimming some of the ancillary information into sub articles is a good one - try this first and see how far down it gets you. I would also suggest checking out some other articles on some fairly major breeds - for example, Thoroughbred at 72KB and Andalusian horse at 46.5KB, both featured articles - to see the approximate length of each section and the amount of detail needed. Now, even though I've told you the article is too long, the lead needs to be expanded. Per WP:LEAD, articles greater than 30KB should have a lead of 3-4 paragraphs. Since this article is so far over 30KB, it should probably be four. The lead should summarize the entire article, while not including new information. Copyediting and actual prose suggestions are a little pointless if you're going to be cutting stuff out, so I'll wait until you think you're done chopping before I actually start looking deeply at the prose and MOS compliance. Overall, I think you have done a wonderful job on this article. However, you may have fallen prey to the urge to add everything that is known about a breed, whether it is of use/interest to the lay reader or not. Dana boomer ( talk) 12:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC) (expanded Dana boomer ( talk) 16:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC))
I think redundancy then chops is the way we may have to go (amazing how much stuff CAN be chopped just by tackling redundancy!). PITKE: Two good ideas form Dana here: 1) Separate new article on coldblood harness racing -- easily linked both here, and on the Norwegian breeds and in harness racing. Massively cool idea because I know I was really clueless about this at the beginning. Maybe once it's created, some material here can be selectively moved. 2) Some of the history of Finland's horse breeding stuff does go beyond just the Finnhorse's history so just might be able to be teased out into a general article, (though what to name it??). Ditto... Montanabw (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, here goes. I'll keep adding to this list as I find new spots:
That's it for now, probably more later. As the major redundancies get trimmed out, it will be easier to see the minor ones. One point that I must stress is that sometimes you must leave the very specialized information to the books - letting the reader go to them if they want really detailed information. For example, when writing Haflinger (horse), one of the books I found contained detailed information on the pedigrees and bloodlines of every studbook line. This information is far to detailed for the average reader, however, and so should be left in the book for the true scholar to read there. Dana boomer ( talk) 14:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I added pictures of different types of finnhorse stallions. I also made a collage of them: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Finnhorse_types.jpg
I don't know are these useful for the article but at least they represent differences between the types. I chose stallions which have been evaluated to have "good type" for their section. Johanna Rautio ( talk) 08:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
My humble opinion is that the basic photos are good conformation shots and one way to use them (other than the one which is the lead image) would be to have one stand-up and one "action" shot in each of the four sections on the sections... the historic body photos can be kept but moved around a bit. Cute head shots are fun, but not really necessary. And remember, commons is the place for the galleries! LOL! Montanabw (talk) 01:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment - I don't feel that my comments above have been satisfactorily addressed, so I see no real need to make further comments at this point. There is still an extreme amount of redundancy and tangential information in the article that could be removed to shorten the length (which NEEDS to be done, the article is still over 11,000 words). At this point there is no need to spin the history section into another article - we don't have seperate history articles for any other breed, and this includes breeds like the Thoroughbred, Arabian and Andalusian, which have had impacts that far outweight that of the Finnhorse. Better new articles would be one on coldblood harness racing and perhaps one on the Finnish crown stallion system, with any information that is tangential to this article but still interesting moved there. This, plus removing the redundancy which I began to outline in my comments above, would do a significant amount towards chopping the article to its proper length. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
(undent) Very nice work - definitely making progress! I think now would be the time to start working on cutting redundancy. There is still the redundancy between the general and individual type breed descriptions. I also noticed as I was looking over the article again that there is significant duplication between the description of the trotter type in the breed characteristics section and the harness racing section, especially the information on records/times, which is repeated almost verbatim in the two sections. For GAN somewhat, and especially if you go to FAC, you want your prose extremely tight. There are a few copyeditors that we can probably get to come in and do a final polish just before FAC (if you decide you want it to go there, I saw you mention it someplace), but before then we should have it as prepared as possible. Again, very nice work. I know that it looks like I just keep complaining, but you are really doing a great job with this article. Dana boomer ( talk) 22:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm still a little uncomfortable with the way the top half of the article is laid out. It seems to jump around quite a lot, which may have to do with the order of its sections. Here's the current layout:
Here's my proposal:
As is is currently, the studbook evaluation and working tests section feel odd coming in the middle of the breed types - I think they would be better placed together after the information on characteristics. The color information also feels odd coming after all of the information on the history of the types and the studbook evaluation - very separated from the other breed characteristic information. There are a few sentences of duplication here and there in these sections, but that can be dealt with after we get the layout how we want it. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 17:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Allright, done for now, have gotten through the end of the Breed sections section (this is more of a note for myself than anything else). Will continue work on this tomorrow. As I said before, feel free to revert any changes I made tonight that you don't like/don't agree with. Dana boomer ( talk) 01:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we can kill the "uses" section altogether and merge that material with the four breed sections. It's not standard for WP Horse Breeds, but in this case, due to the four studbook sections, it kind of makes sense. Montanabw (talk) 19:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
and so on... Does this make sense now? Montanabw (talk) 02:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
First, I think that the Crown stallion system and harness racing articles are probably ready to be moved to the mainspace, and should be moved so that those links go blue and it doesn't look like the information was just deleted. Second, as I was poking around in the history section, I thought of another idea for a new article that would remove some of the tangential information without needing a seperate history of the finnhorse article.
Here's my thought: There is a lot of information in the history section on how the Finnish people used horses in the military. While interesting, much of this information is not exactly necessary to an complete understanding of the Finnhorse breed. I think that, as with the two other new articles, much of the tangential information could be moved to a new article, titled something like Military use of horses in Finland, with a summary left behind.
This tangential information is scattered all through the history section, although obviously it is concentrated in those subsections directly relating to military use. For example, take this paragraph from the Military use section:
Before World War II, the Finnhorse was the breed that made up almost all of the horses that were part of the Finnish army and mounted police forces. While officers mostly rode warmbloods, for the cavalry, the so-called "light type" of Finnhorse was used. The horses were bought directly from farmers, and given basic training for about six months before transferring to regiments for further training. This second part of the training took another six months, directed by non-commissioned officers. At this point the horses were considered trained for normal cavalry purposes. The most talented horses were usually assigned to younger officers or the best riders among non-commissioned ranks, and many horses had competitive success during their service.[66] After the war, the Finnish cavalry was converted to infantry, and the use of the Finnhorse for riding purposes nearly ended. However, the breed made a comeback as a riding horse, even returning to competitive ranks, beginning in the late 1960s.[35]
Now, the bolded part, while interesting, is not really necessary for a full understanding of the Finnhorse breed. It is, however, very on-point for an understanding of how horses were used by the military in Finland. There is quite a bit of other information like this, especially where the text goes into describing horse transactions between Finland, Russia and other Scandanavian countries during and immediately after wars. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 21:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Cut stuff to Pitke/Horses in Finnish military, we're about 3.5Kb and 600 words down again. Pitke ( talk) 22:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
"Intro said split in 1924 and 1971, but 1955 not mentioned?? earlier edit also mentioned 1965. Typo?" -- 1955 indeed is a typo. Goes like this [2]:
"To qualify for the Finnhorse stud book<!-- clarify that this means their offspring can also be registered?-->, " -- Does this mean "registered as a Finnhorse" or "registered in the studbook"? Pitke ( talk) 14:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Many Finnhorses have multiple uses, such as starting their career in harness racing and later moving on to riding.<!-- here's where you can put that talk page source--> -- 1) the "source" was a single individual example of a double registered Finnhorse, not a real source. 2) asking me to find a source for this goes to the same pile as "Finnhorses are fast". The claim above is as natural for a Finn as air being breathable. Argh! Pitke ( talk) 15:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
OK, been away long enough to have less-foggy eyes. I did a run-through of the whole thing with my usual gentle search-and-destroy approach. ;-) I did a bit of wordsmithing, word-chopping, and wreaked general mayhem, but in particular, I spotted some stuff that was redundant or confusing. I moved around a little bit of it (notably moving the short summaries of the studbook evaluation for each section into breed characteristics, thus making them clearer plus killing some redundancies), fixed some inconsistencies, clarified some concepts, but some areas I just flagged with hidden text that you can toss when read. I'd move any hidden text discussion over here if discussion is needed. I also got a better sense of what can easily be chopped wholesale for a military article versus what's going to have to be more surgically excised, and noted the easy stuff. Overall, I think that chopping some of the general military stuff and maybe a bit of polish on the history section once that's done (making it possibly a bit more chronological and less topical, it skips around a bit, which results in some redundancy) and you'll be just about there. You have a few "notes to self" on citation that may need to be cleaned out, and there are two "citation needed" tags in the same paragraph, over a year old now, best to sort that out. Overall, getting there, definitely getting there! Montanabw (talk) 06:53, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Found this just a minute ago: [3]. Quoth pages 46-47, "Leena Jaakkola from Oulu brought two bronze medals [team and personal] home from the Scandinavian disabled [dressage] championships (...). As she did it, she also created history: this was the first time a Finnhorse achieved a medal or even placed in an international event. It's no wonder that the spectators and other competitors wouldn't recognise the breed that's barely ever seen competing outside [Finland's] borders. Most people guessed that the light-built, 12-year-old Valssandra was a Haflinger." The rider has MS and due to her back pain she cannot ride warmbloods. Thus the use of her "B" horse. "Every now and then I feel like driving a moped to a motorbike event. Judges criticise the unflashy, low movements (...) but that's precisely the reason I am able to ride her. I just need to gather the points for other virtues (...)" Pitke ( talk) 15:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Just a reminder to contributors: Finnish horse system works differently. I'll cover it with more detail here, because I can, and as a reminder for myself as well. For starters, we have Hippos (the breed registry), then we have Hippos (the stud book registry), and yeah, a bunch of breed associations (which basically just promote their breeds).
The registry is a national all-animals horse registry with practically no requitements, maintained by Suomen Hippos, the national, official central association of all things horsey in Finland. Every single equine creature, whether imported or bred here, must be registered. This is enforced by the EU.
Requirements:
Being registered as being of a certain breed simply means there is proof the horse is that breed -- normally the parents being of the breed is qualification enough, and exceptions include mainly warmblood breeds, which can be tricky to sort out. The parents do not need to be registered in the breed's studbook however, just being registered is enough.
The studbook is where things get specific. Studbook registration is a permit to be used in breeding, controlled by Suomen Hippos or the breed association in cooperation with Suomen Hippos. Generally, to be accepted, a stallion must have both parents in the studbook, but for a mare just the sire is enough.
-- Pitke ( talk) 17:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
User Finetooth has been of great help and made a list of MOS breaches within this article. I've Ctrl+H-ed most of them into oblivion, though with some points I need your help, fellow editors.
Apparently Montanabw thinks I'm making a mess of the refs ("Please STOP changing these refs, take the issue to talk. This is screwing things up!."). Looking at this diff, it seems to me that consistency is improved. I don't understand why these edits should be reverted. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 01:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Sounds like Wikipedia:Ownership of articles to me. It sounds like Montanabw isn't pointing to anything concretely wrong with my edits; only that they didn't get reviewed by Pitke. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 14:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Pitke, it's not a crisis to have a few iffy links, they can be tagged for cleanup and stay for a bit until they are. I don't see a huge crisis that muct be resolved in the next 24 hours or anything. Chris, my basic point is simple; the first time through, you really screwed up a bunch of things, and as a "drive by" editor who had not previously contributed here, that made you no friends. That made your second round very suspect and when I noted a few things were messed up, (and there was at least one harvb in that edit, too) I reverted it all because there was no way I was about to spend an hour of my time to go through this point by point to check what had to be fixed and what didn't, but I feared leaving it would potentially leave Pitke a big mess to fix. If you two want to collaborate for cleanup, that's groovy, but this has to be done as a team. It's not "ownership" to suggest that common courtesy is to work with the lead editor, who has clearly evidenced a willingness to collaborate. Pitke puts up with me all the time, after all! But Pitke has also earned my respect for doing outstanding research, and I want to be sure than any changes don't mess up what's here already. Montanabw (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
|ref=harv
. Adding a few more isn't ruining anything and it isn't the same as replacing a citation with harvnb. Besides, I don't even see how that can be considered screwing things up. There are a bunch of refs basically formatted like harvnb except for without the automatic link to the reference. I don't see how a link is so bad. but harvnb is a discussion for another section because there were no harvnb insertions in the diff we're all talking about. And this is very much within
WP:OWN. Did you read the examples? Not having time to review is specifically listed as an invalid reason for reverting. —
Chris Capoccia
T⁄
C
02:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)I've been going through and tweaking refs to hopefully make everybody happy. I've come across a few issues that I think Pitke might be the only one who can fix:
Ertola&Houttu2003 should be (from my earlier changes Montanabw so kindly reverted)
{{cite book |last1=Ertola |first1=Kristiina |first2=Jukka |last2=Houttu |chapter=The Finnish Horse and Other Scandinavian Cold-Blooded Trotters |editor1-first=Mike W. |editor1-last=Ross |editor2-first=Sue J. |editor2-last=Dyson |title=Diagnosis and Management of Lameness in the Horse |pages=946–50 |year=2003 |doi=10.1016/B978-0-7216-8342-3.50121-2 |isbn=978-0-7216-8342-3}}
Lindström2009 needs some work. Tunne Hevonen is a Finnish horse magazine. This citation appears to be missing an author name, article title and volume number. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 20:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
"The official Finnish coldblood record as of 2010 is 1:19,9aly, "
I can't c/e this bit without understanding what it meant! 85.210.52.109 ( talk) 09:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
It's the "aly" bit I just don't understand - what does "aly" stand for? Could there be a brief explanation next to the first use of it? Pesky ( talk) 08:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Dcoetzee 00:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I honestly think this article is closer to Featured Article quality than Good Article. It's extensive and detailed, well-written, well-illustrated. I can find little to criticise.
I'll take a peek at some of this also. I am not the lead editor here, Pitke is, but I've weighted in a lot on this article as it came together and will comment that it is top-notch for comprehensibility. And to heck with a pony, Daddy, I want a Finnhorse! (LOL) If you want to compare this to other GA or FA horse breed articles, click on the Horses portal at the talk page (or at the link here), and once you are in the portal, the featured breeds list section is made up entirely of articles that have previously achieved GA or FA status. (You can click on the "Archive/Nominations" link to bring up the whole list) At present, we have several FAs (Thoroughbred, Icelandic horse, Suffolk Punch and Haflinger jump out at me) but quite a few GAs. The Icelandic horse or Haflinger horse breeds are kind of similar to the Finnhorse (though NOTHING actually compares to a Finnhorse, of course!) in that they are stocky, cold-adapted European breeds of horse. A comparable article about a breed that is pretty exclusive to a single nation is probably Cleveland Bay, which is an FA. Oh, and Andalusian horse is one where the aficionados are strongly nationalistic. We are in the process of tuning up Appaloosa to go from GA to FA, if you want to look at an article on a breed with a funky and interesting history plus some uniquely weird traits (in that case, a spotted coat that leads to a genetics section we are desperately trying to make readable for ordinary mortals) Montanabw (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey all, sorry for the delay on this, it's a big article and I've been a little busy. Taking a look at the rest now. Dcoetzee 19:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey all, I went ahead and approved this - I feel like all the issues I looked at were adequately addressed above. I appreciate your patience. :-) Dcoetzee 05:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
To help with keeping the ref note thing manageable and consistent, I've moved the definitions of the ref notes into the Ref section. For future reference, all refs should be given a name and defined there at the correct alphabetical slot. All refs should use the relevant citation template. Pitke ( talk) 20:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I finished translation to Finnish today, and as I'm typing this, fellow editors there are doing clean-up. I've added it to peer review now, and announced my intention to FAC it.
Swedish version has been updated with material from this article, although there have been some misunderstandings and mistranslations. The ref notes have been discarded. I plan on restoring the refs a little by little, and maybe, once the fi FAC is rolling nicely, try my hand at this version.
French version has been marked with a "please translate from en to fr" tag (by Tsaag?). I've actually managed to talk an acquaintance into translating some parts of the article. She's fluent in French, although needs some refreshing, and lacks horsey vocabulary. We'll be working together to keep the facts as straight as possible. Pitke ( talk) 15:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The pre-FAC peer review of the Finnish translated version has gathered some attention, and a few users have questioned the reliability of the Early History section. For most part, I agree with these users, thus the removal of some sourced content and considerable rewording/rewriting of a few passages. The sources used for these claims about prehistoric instances of horses in Finnish area are horsey books, not archeological ones.
It would be helpful if someone could point me towards a good, recent journal or article on early horses in Northern Europe. Pitke ( talk) 12:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I mentioned this in the fi-wiki Peer Review, but I'll also raise the question separately here. I'd be eager to remove entirely the part about comparative linguistics in the Early history section. At its best it's just speculation, and "knowing" hardly is compareable to "using". Just to mention an example of the same sort, Finns knew the word "lion", thanks to Bible, about centuries before the common man got to learn anything more of the creature than that it has a terrible roar. The article contains information, sourced, on hard evidence of horses in Finnish areas. Pitke ( talk) 08:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
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I like the Murto shot. There is a need for good standstill conformation shots, there are already a lot of nice trotting photos, though if one of the three you proposed is added, either new or to replace something else, I suggest File:Helmi.jpg as the best quality image, though the File:Eri-Aaroni.JPG may be of use to replace a different historical image, the horse is gorgeous. I made some other tweaks, or will be making some other tweaks. Montanabw (talk) 19:10, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
First off, the article is huge! Per WP:Page size, readers may tire of reading a page longer than 6,000 to 10,000 words - this one (using Dr.pda's prose size tool) is over 11,000. Montana's suggestion about trimming some of the ancillary information into sub articles is a good one - try this first and see how far down it gets you. I would also suggest checking out some other articles on some fairly major breeds - for example, Thoroughbred at 72KB and Andalusian horse at 46.5KB, both featured articles - to see the approximate length of each section and the amount of detail needed. Now, even though I've told you the article is too long, the lead needs to be expanded. Per WP:LEAD, articles greater than 30KB should have a lead of 3-4 paragraphs. Since this article is so far over 30KB, it should probably be four. The lead should summarize the entire article, while not including new information. Copyediting and actual prose suggestions are a little pointless if you're going to be cutting stuff out, so I'll wait until you think you're done chopping before I actually start looking deeply at the prose and MOS compliance. Overall, I think you have done a wonderful job on this article. However, you may have fallen prey to the urge to add everything that is known about a breed, whether it is of use/interest to the lay reader or not. Dana boomer ( talk) 12:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC) (expanded Dana boomer ( talk) 16:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC))
I think redundancy then chops is the way we may have to go (amazing how much stuff CAN be chopped just by tackling redundancy!). PITKE: Two good ideas form Dana here: 1) Separate new article on coldblood harness racing -- easily linked both here, and on the Norwegian breeds and in harness racing. Massively cool idea because I know I was really clueless about this at the beginning. Maybe once it's created, some material here can be selectively moved. 2) Some of the history of Finland's horse breeding stuff does go beyond just the Finnhorse's history so just might be able to be teased out into a general article, (though what to name it??). Ditto... Montanabw (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, here goes. I'll keep adding to this list as I find new spots:
That's it for now, probably more later. As the major redundancies get trimmed out, it will be easier to see the minor ones. One point that I must stress is that sometimes you must leave the very specialized information to the books - letting the reader go to them if they want really detailed information. For example, when writing Haflinger (horse), one of the books I found contained detailed information on the pedigrees and bloodlines of every studbook line. This information is far to detailed for the average reader, however, and so should be left in the book for the true scholar to read there. Dana boomer ( talk) 14:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I added pictures of different types of finnhorse stallions. I also made a collage of them: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Finnhorse_types.jpg
I don't know are these useful for the article but at least they represent differences between the types. I chose stallions which have been evaluated to have "good type" for their section. Johanna Rautio ( talk) 08:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
My humble opinion is that the basic photos are good conformation shots and one way to use them (other than the one which is the lead image) would be to have one stand-up and one "action" shot in each of the four sections on the sections... the historic body photos can be kept but moved around a bit. Cute head shots are fun, but not really necessary. And remember, commons is the place for the galleries! LOL! Montanabw (talk) 01:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment - I don't feel that my comments above have been satisfactorily addressed, so I see no real need to make further comments at this point. There is still an extreme amount of redundancy and tangential information in the article that could be removed to shorten the length (which NEEDS to be done, the article is still over 11,000 words). At this point there is no need to spin the history section into another article - we don't have seperate history articles for any other breed, and this includes breeds like the Thoroughbred, Arabian and Andalusian, which have had impacts that far outweight that of the Finnhorse. Better new articles would be one on coldblood harness racing and perhaps one on the Finnish crown stallion system, with any information that is tangential to this article but still interesting moved there. This, plus removing the redundancy which I began to outline in my comments above, would do a significant amount towards chopping the article to its proper length. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
(undent) Very nice work - definitely making progress! I think now would be the time to start working on cutting redundancy. There is still the redundancy between the general and individual type breed descriptions. I also noticed as I was looking over the article again that there is significant duplication between the description of the trotter type in the breed characteristics section and the harness racing section, especially the information on records/times, which is repeated almost verbatim in the two sections. For GAN somewhat, and especially if you go to FAC, you want your prose extremely tight. There are a few copyeditors that we can probably get to come in and do a final polish just before FAC (if you decide you want it to go there, I saw you mention it someplace), but before then we should have it as prepared as possible. Again, very nice work. I know that it looks like I just keep complaining, but you are really doing a great job with this article. Dana boomer ( talk) 22:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm still a little uncomfortable with the way the top half of the article is laid out. It seems to jump around quite a lot, which may have to do with the order of its sections. Here's the current layout:
Here's my proposal:
As is is currently, the studbook evaluation and working tests section feel odd coming in the middle of the breed types - I think they would be better placed together after the information on characteristics. The color information also feels odd coming after all of the information on the history of the types and the studbook evaluation - very separated from the other breed characteristic information. There are a few sentences of duplication here and there in these sections, but that can be dealt with after we get the layout how we want it. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 17:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Allright, done for now, have gotten through the end of the Breed sections section (this is more of a note for myself than anything else). Will continue work on this tomorrow. As I said before, feel free to revert any changes I made tonight that you don't like/don't agree with. Dana boomer ( talk) 01:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we can kill the "uses" section altogether and merge that material with the four breed sections. It's not standard for WP Horse Breeds, but in this case, due to the four studbook sections, it kind of makes sense. Montanabw (talk) 19:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
and so on... Does this make sense now? Montanabw (talk) 02:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
First, I think that the Crown stallion system and harness racing articles are probably ready to be moved to the mainspace, and should be moved so that those links go blue and it doesn't look like the information was just deleted. Second, as I was poking around in the history section, I thought of another idea for a new article that would remove some of the tangential information without needing a seperate history of the finnhorse article.
Here's my thought: There is a lot of information in the history section on how the Finnish people used horses in the military. While interesting, much of this information is not exactly necessary to an complete understanding of the Finnhorse breed. I think that, as with the two other new articles, much of the tangential information could be moved to a new article, titled something like Military use of horses in Finland, with a summary left behind.
This tangential information is scattered all through the history section, although obviously it is concentrated in those subsections directly relating to military use. For example, take this paragraph from the Military use section:
Before World War II, the Finnhorse was the breed that made up almost all of the horses that were part of the Finnish army and mounted police forces. While officers mostly rode warmbloods, for the cavalry, the so-called "light type" of Finnhorse was used. The horses were bought directly from farmers, and given basic training for about six months before transferring to regiments for further training. This second part of the training took another six months, directed by non-commissioned officers. At this point the horses were considered trained for normal cavalry purposes. The most talented horses were usually assigned to younger officers or the best riders among non-commissioned ranks, and many horses had competitive success during their service.[66] After the war, the Finnish cavalry was converted to infantry, and the use of the Finnhorse for riding purposes nearly ended. However, the breed made a comeback as a riding horse, even returning to competitive ranks, beginning in the late 1960s.[35]
Now, the bolded part, while interesting, is not really necessary for a full understanding of the Finnhorse breed. It is, however, very on-point for an understanding of how horses were used by the military in Finland. There is quite a bit of other information like this, especially where the text goes into describing horse transactions between Finland, Russia and other Scandanavian countries during and immediately after wars. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 21:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Cut stuff to Pitke/Horses in Finnish military, we're about 3.5Kb and 600 words down again. Pitke ( talk) 22:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
"Intro said split in 1924 and 1971, but 1955 not mentioned?? earlier edit also mentioned 1965. Typo?" -- 1955 indeed is a typo. Goes like this [2]:
"To qualify for the Finnhorse stud book<!-- clarify that this means their offspring can also be registered?-->, " -- Does this mean "registered as a Finnhorse" or "registered in the studbook"? Pitke ( talk) 14:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Many Finnhorses have multiple uses, such as starting their career in harness racing and later moving on to riding.<!-- here's where you can put that talk page source--> -- 1) the "source" was a single individual example of a double registered Finnhorse, not a real source. 2) asking me to find a source for this goes to the same pile as "Finnhorses are fast". The claim above is as natural for a Finn as air being breathable. Argh! Pitke ( talk) 15:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
OK, been away long enough to have less-foggy eyes. I did a run-through of the whole thing with my usual gentle search-and-destroy approach. ;-) I did a bit of wordsmithing, word-chopping, and wreaked general mayhem, but in particular, I spotted some stuff that was redundant or confusing. I moved around a little bit of it (notably moving the short summaries of the studbook evaluation for each section into breed characteristics, thus making them clearer plus killing some redundancies), fixed some inconsistencies, clarified some concepts, but some areas I just flagged with hidden text that you can toss when read. I'd move any hidden text discussion over here if discussion is needed. I also got a better sense of what can easily be chopped wholesale for a military article versus what's going to have to be more surgically excised, and noted the easy stuff. Overall, I think that chopping some of the general military stuff and maybe a bit of polish on the history section once that's done (making it possibly a bit more chronological and less topical, it skips around a bit, which results in some redundancy) and you'll be just about there. You have a few "notes to self" on citation that may need to be cleaned out, and there are two "citation needed" tags in the same paragraph, over a year old now, best to sort that out. Overall, getting there, definitely getting there! Montanabw (talk) 06:53, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Found this just a minute ago: [3]. Quoth pages 46-47, "Leena Jaakkola from Oulu brought two bronze medals [team and personal] home from the Scandinavian disabled [dressage] championships (...). As she did it, she also created history: this was the first time a Finnhorse achieved a medal or even placed in an international event. It's no wonder that the spectators and other competitors wouldn't recognise the breed that's barely ever seen competing outside [Finland's] borders. Most people guessed that the light-built, 12-year-old Valssandra was a Haflinger." The rider has MS and due to her back pain she cannot ride warmbloods. Thus the use of her "B" horse. "Every now and then I feel like driving a moped to a motorbike event. Judges criticise the unflashy, low movements (...) but that's precisely the reason I am able to ride her. I just need to gather the points for other virtues (...)" Pitke ( talk) 15:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Just a reminder to contributors: Finnish horse system works differently. I'll cover it with more detail here, because I can, and as a reminder for myself as well. For starters, we have Hippos (the breed registry), then we have Hippos (the stud book registry), and yeah, a bunch of breed associations (which basically just promote their breeds).
The registry is a national all-animals horse registry with practically no requitements, maintained by Suomen Hippos, the national, official central association of all things horsey in Finland. Every single equine creature, whether imported or bred here, must be registered. This is enforced by the EU.
Requirements:
Being registered as being of a certain breed simply means there is proof the horse is that breed -- normally the parents being of the breed is qualification enough, and exceptions include mainly warmblood breeds, which can be tricky to sort out. The parents do not need to be registered in the breed's studbook however, just being registered is enough.
The studbook is where things get specific. Studbook registration is a permit to be used in breeding, controlled by Suomen Hippos or the breed association in cooperation with Suomen Hippos. Generally, to be accepted, a stallion must have both parents in the studbook, but for a mare just the sire is enough.
-- Pitke ( talk) 17:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
User Finetooth has been of great help and made a list of MOS breaches within this article. I've Ctrl+H-ed most of them into oblivion, though with some points I need your help, fellow editors.
Apparently Montanabw thinks I'm making a mess of the refs ("Please STOP changing these refs, take the issue to talk. This is screwing things up!."). Looking at this diff, it seems to me that consistency is improved. I don't understand why these edits should be reverted. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 01:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Sounds like Wikipedia:Ownership of articles to me. It sounds like Montanabw isn't pointing to anything concretely wrong with my edits; only that they didn't get reviewed by Pitke. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 14:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Pitke, it's not a crisis to have a few iffy links, they can be tagged for cleanup and stay for a bit until they are. I don't see a huge crisis that muct be resolved in the next 24 hours or anything. Chris, my basic point is simple; the first time through, you really screwed up a bunch of things, and as a "drive by" editor who had not previously contributed here, that made you no friends. That made your second round very suspect and when I noted a few things were messed up, (and there was at least one harvb in that edit, too) I reverted it all because there was no way I was about to spend an hour of my time to go through this point by point to check what had to be fixed and what didn't, but I feared leaving it would potentially leave Pitke a big mess to fix. If you two want to collaborate for cleanup, that's groovy, but this has to be done as a team. It's not "ownership" to suggest that common courtesy is to work with the lead editor, who has clearly evidenced a willingness to collaborate. Pitke puts up with me all the time, after all! But Pitke has also earned my respect for doing outstanding research, and I want to be sure than any changes don't mess up what's here already. Montanabw (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
|ref=harv
. Adding a few more isn't ruining anything and it isn't the same as replacing a citation with harvnb. Besides, I don't even see how that can be considered screwing things up. There are a bunch of refs basically formatted like harvnb except for without the automatic link to the reference. I don't see how a link is so bad. but harvnb is a discussion for another section because there were no harvnb insertions in the diff we're all talking about. And this is very much within
WP:OWN. Did you read the examples? Not having time to review is specifically listed as an invalid reason for reverting. —
Chris Capoccia
T⁄
C
02:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)I've been going through and tweaking refs to hopefully make everybody happy. I've come across a few issues that I think Pitke might be the only one who can fix:
Ertola&Houttu2003 should be (from my earlier changes Montanabw so kindly reverted)
{{cite book |last1=Ertola |first1=Kristiina |first2=Jukka |last2=Houttu |chapter=The Finnish Horse and Other Scandinavian Cold-Blooded Trotters |editor1-first=Mike W. |editor1-last=Ross |editor2-first=Sue J. |editor2-last=Dyson |title=Diagnosis and Management of Lameness in the Horse |pages=946–50 |year=2003 |doi=10.1016/B978-0-7216-8342-3.50121-2 |isbn=978-0-7216-8342-3}}
Lindström2009 needs some work. Tunne Hevonen is a Finnish horse magazine. This citation appears to be missing an author name, article title and volume number. — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 20:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
"The official Finnish coldblood record as of 2010 is 1:19,9aly, "
I can't c/e this bit without understanding what it meant! 85.210.52.109 ( talk) 09:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
It's the "aly" bit I just don't understand - what does "aly" stand for? Could there be a brief explanation next to the first use of it? Pesky ( talk) 08:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Dcoetzee 00:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I honestly think this article is closer to Featured Article quality than Good Article. It's extensive and detailed, well-written, well-illustrated. I can find little to criticise.
I'll take a peek at some of this also. I am not the lead editor here, Pitke is, but I've weighted in a lot on this article as it came together and will comment that it is top-notch for comprehensibility. And to heck with a pony, Daddy, I want a Finnhorse! (LOL) If you want to compare this to other GA or FA horse breed articles, click on the Horses portal at the talk page (or at the link here), and once you are in the portal, the featured breeds list section is made up entirely of articles that have previously achieved GA or FA status. (You can click on the "Archive/Nominations" link to bring up the whole list) At present, we have several FAs (Thoroughbred, Icelandic horse, Suffolk Punch and Haflinger jump out at me) but quite a few GAs. The Icelandic horse or Haflinger horse breeds are kind of similar to the Finnhorse (though NOTHING actually compares to a Finnhorse, of course!) in that they are stocky, cold-adapted European breeds of horse. A comparable article about a breed that is pretty exclusive to a single nation is probably Cleveland Bay, which is an FA. Oh, and Andalusian horse is one where the aficionados are strongly nationalistic. We are in the process of tuning up Appaloosa to go from GA to FA, if you want to look at an article on a breed with a funky and interesting history plus some uniquely weird traits (in that case, a spotted coat that leads to a genetics section we are desperately trying to make readable for ordinary mortals) Montanabw (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey all, sorry for the delay on this, it's a big article and I've been a little busy. Taking a look at the rest now. Dcoetzee 19:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey all, I went ahead and approved this - I feel like all the issues I looked at were adequately addressed above. I appreciate your patience. :-) Dcoetzee 05:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
To help with keeping the ref note thing manageable and consistent, I've moved the definitions of the ref notes into the Ref section. For future reference, all refs should be given a name and defined there at the correct alphabetical slot. All refs should use the relevant citation template. Pitke ( talk) 20:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I finished translation to Finnish today, and as I'm typing this, fellow editors there are doing clean-up. I've added it to peer review now, and announced my intention to FAC it.
Swedish version has been updated with material from this article, although there have been some misunderstandings and mistranslations. The ref notes have been discarded. I plan on restoring the refs a little by little, and maybe, once the fi FAC is rolling nicely, try my hand at this version.
French version has been marked with a "please translate from en to fr" tag (by Tsaag?). I've actually managed to talk an acquaintance into translating some parts of the article. She's fluent in French, although needs some refreshing, and lacks horsey vocabulary. We'll be working together to keep the facts as straight as possible. Pitke ( talk) 15:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The pre-FAC peer review of the Finnish translated version has gathered some attention, and a few users have questioned the reliability of the Early History section. For most part, I agree with these users, thus the removal of some sourced content and considerable rewording/rewriting of a few passages. The sources used for these claims about prehistoric instances of horses in Finnish area are horsey books, not archeological ones.
It would be helpful if someone could point me towards a good, recent journal or article on early horses in Northern Europe. Pitke ( talk) 12:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I mentioned this in the fi-wiki Peer Review, but I'll also raise the question separately here. I'd be eager to remove entirely the part about comparative linguistics in the Early history section. At its best it's just speculation, and "knowing" hardly is compareable to "using". Just to mention an example of the same sort, Finns knew the word "lion", thanks to Bible, about centuries before the common man got to learn anything more of the creature than that it has a terrible roar. The article contains information, sourced, on hard evidence of horses in Finnish areas. Pitke ( talk) 08:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
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