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Stuff like Jaques isn't 'rs' for sure. How can someone believe that ancient Albanians fought in the Trojan War like he mentions? Moreover, there is a major historical discrepancy since Finiq was under Byzantine rule until 1348, how can a (possible) Albanian clan originate from there? Off course some 'rs' can give a solution to this. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
"Is The Albanians to be recommended as worthy reading? Very definitely. It offers the reader a pleasant and elucidating stroll through Albanian history as well as an impressive amount of detail and information, in particular about the communist period."
I expect user:Athenean to apologize for his comments on Reverend Jacques: [3]Edwin Jacques is a clown, and his book is trash. Period.-- Sulmues Let's talk 23:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
i think atheneans point was that jacques is in fact...a reverend - 'Now why should the greeks fight in the Trojan war and the ancient Albanians couldn't?' oh sulmues! 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Entered dubious|verify mostly for the book of Winnifrith, because the first reference is inappropriate already: speaks about ancient Greece. -- Sulmues Let's talk 23:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Winnifrith is now verified, I added the link in googlebooks about the specific quote. If this isn't enough I noticed that one of Enver Hotza (the former dictator) declarations [ [4]] talks about the Greek population of Vurgut, in which Finiq is part. Case is now fixed I believe. Actually Finiq was of the 99 'minoritare' with recognized Greek majorities by the regime of Social-stalinist Albania (1945-1991). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
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I have removed this as [5] WP:FRINGE. There is no historical record of any Levantine settlement in the area, nor is there any archeological evidence of it. These are folk etymologies, the author does not seem to have any academic credentials, and his book is self-published (lulu.com). Furthermore, there is no such place as "Jerikon" anywhere in Albania. Khirurg ( talk) 22:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The third edition is a completion of hte first two editions... published in 1995 and 1996.... This publication was made with the support of the Albanian American Civic League and Albanian American Foundation, Embassy of Israel, and the Albania-Israel Friendship Association, Tirana.... So now that that's cleared up, the more interesting stuff...
(unindent) Regarding Kotani's book, the fact that it was funded by the Albanian-Israel Friendship Association means nothing as far as reliablity. It is a self-published book, published by lulu.com, a well-known self-publication outfit. This can clearly be seen here [14] (wikipedia does not let me post the link from the lulu.com website on this talkpage - it is blacklisted. This gives us an idea of what the wikipedia community thinks of lulu.com). So yes, that does clear that up. As far afalc.org is not a reliable source either. Look, if there was any merit to these claims, they would have been published in peer-reviewed archeology journals or by reliable publishers. Instead we are scraping the bottom of the internet barrel here. Forget it. Khirurg ( talk) 23:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Here is an excerpt from the opening of Kotani's book:
Apollodar the great writer of the second century BC, and the geographer of antiquity Scymm show that Vidam, son of the Phoneician king, became king of the Illyrian tribe of the Enchelei. In some scientific studies that address old sources, Illyrian-Jewish relations are traced since the end of the second millennium before CE. By the end of the XII century BC many Illyrians were displaced from the Illyrian peninsula and settled in the Middle East. Amongst these tribes it is mentioned that of Peles who settled on the southern coast of Syria, by which it is thought that the country got its name – Palestine. Other authors, for example Majani Zaharia say that “it is said that the Philistines were actually Illyrians. In the West the name of this nation is iseen under different names, but always relying on its Illyrian origin….In an old Israeli map, many Illyrian names are found. Also in the Old Testament there are Philistine names. Even the ancient Jews have left their mark in Illyria. The names Finiq and Jericho are not random. Scholars think that these names correspond to names historically associated with Israel, for example Finiq from ancient Fonike; Jerikoja with Jericho in the Bible, Palasa with Palestine. Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian of the first century AD, based on a letter of the year 135 written by a king of Lacedemonia, sent to Therrotar the Great of Israel…
I mean, you can't make this stuff up. Apollodar? Scymm? Palestine as an Illyrian etyomology? What does Lacedomonia have to do with anything? And who it Therrotar? No, really, you can't make this stuff up. Khirurg ( talk) 23:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) The Romaniote stuff is nice but it's really off-topic and just plain speculation. Oricum was founded long before the Second Temple went down. Regarding the Phoenicians, there are no known Phoenician colonies in the Ionian/Adriatic, the nearest Phoenician settlements being in western Sicily. Furthermore Phoenice is and was an inland settlement, so highly unlikely. Regarding Palasa, none of the sources connect it directly to "Palestine", I only see connection between Palaeste and Palasa and Palaeste and Palestine, but no direct connection between "Palasa" and "Palestine", therefore WP:SYNTH applies. There is also zero evidence to suggest that the small village of Palasa has origins deep in antiquity. As for Shoqata e Miqesise (Friendship Society) is does not appear to meet the WP:RS criterion that it is a publisher with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. The fact that is is Israeli funded means absolutely nothing as far as reliability is concerned. There is nothing here. Only fanciful speculation and folk etymologies sourced to obscure sources, one of which fails WP:RS. The only thing we learned is that if we scrape the internet of obscure sources really, really deeply (and I mean really deeply) we can come up with some obscure author that mused about a folk etymology for almost anything. What's next, "Sparta" from "Subartu"? "Argos" from "Uruk".? Khirurg ( talk) 06:54, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) Thanks for providing the quotes and translations. Now, I don't see anything about Palasa and Phoenice, so I assume those are moot. Regarding Oricum, it appears is may have been called "Ericho/Jericho" in the medieval period, but I don't see anything about antiquity. Biblical names in the middle ages were a fad, nothing unusual, but I don't think it's encyclopedia-worthy. FYI Oricum was founded by Euboean settlers as Ωρικός, it is highly unlikely they would have named their settlement about some far away village deep in the Judaen desert, whose existence they would probably not even be aware of. Khirurg ( talk) 07:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
...Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region 'Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208); the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho.
I'm in general very reluctant about reproducing fridge theories such as Philistine/Illyrian or Trojan/Illyrian alliances. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
References
@ AlexBachmann: are you referring to Çlirim, which has a mixed population? If so, feel free to modify the sentence of the lede. Cheers, Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
The census of 2011 is well documented and referenced. If someone doesnt like it it doesnt mean that it should not be written here. Thank You! RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 17:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
The data on births and deaths about each municipality are public https://www.instat.gov.al/al/temat/treguesit-demografik%C3%AB-dhe-social%C3%AB/lindjet-vdekjet-dhe-martesat/#tab2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by HokutoKen ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
@Khirurg If you have RS sources to support your claim, you are free to add that to. But you have no right to remove the data who are well sourced and meet WP:RS. Otherwise you're being disruptive and I have to report it. HokutoKen ( talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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Stuff like Jaques isn't 'rs' for sure. How can someone believe that ancient Albanians fought in the Trojan War like he mentions? Moreover, there is a major historical discrepancy since Finiq was under Byzantine rule until 1348, how can a (possible) Albanian clan originate from there? Off course some 'rs' can give a solution to this. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
"Is The Albanians to be recommended as worthy reading? Very definitely. It offers the reader a pleasant and elucidating stroll through Albanian history as well as an impressive amount of detail and information, in particular about the communist period."
I expect user:Athenean to apologize for his comments on Reverend Jacques: [3]Edwin Jacques is a clown, and his book is trash. Period.-- Sulmues Let's talk 23:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
i think atheneans point was that jacques is in fact...a reverend - 'Now why should the greeks fight in the Trojan war and the ancient Albanians couldn't?' oh sulmues! 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Entered dubious|verify mostly for the book of Winnifrith, because the first reference is inappropriate already: speaks about ancient Greece. -- Sulmues Let's talk 23:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Winnifrith is now verified, I added the link in googlebooks about the specific quote. If this isn't enough I noticed that one of Enver Hotza (the former dictator) declarations [ [4]] talks about the Greek population of Vurgut, in which Finiq is part. Case is now fixed I believe. Actually Finiq was of the 99 'minoritare' with recognized Greek majorities by the regime of Social-stalinist Albania (1945-1991). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
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I have removed this as [5] WP:FRINGE. There is no historical record of any Levantine settlement in the area, nor is there any archeological evidence of it. These are folk etymologies, the author does not seem to have any academic credentials, and his book is self-published (lulu.com). Furthermore, there is no such place as "Jerikon" anywhere in Albania. Khirurg ( talk) 22:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The third edition is a completion of hte first two editions... published in 1995 and 1996.... This publication was made with the support of the Albanian American Civic League and Albanian American Foundation, Embassy of Israel, and the Albania-Israel Friendship Association, Tirana.... So now that that's cleared up, the more interesting stuff...
(unindent) Regarding Kotani's book, the fact that it was funded by the Albanian-Israel Friendship Association means nothing as far as reliablity. It is a self-published book, published by lulu.com, a well-known self-publication outfit. This can clearly be seen here [14] (wikipedia does not let me post the link from the lulu.com website on this talkpage - it is blacklisted. This gives us an idea of what the wikipedia community thinks of lulu.com). So yes, that does clear that up. As far afalc.org is not a reliable source either. Look, if there was any merit to these claims, they would have been published in peer-reviewed archeology journals or by reliable publishers. Instead we are scraping the bottom of the internet barrel here. Forget it. Khirurg ( talk) 23:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Here is an excerpt from the opening of Kotani's book:
Apollodar the great writer of the second century BC, and the geographer of antiquity Scymm show that Vidam, son of the Phoneician king, became king of the Illyrian tribe of the Enchelei. In some scientific studies that address old sources, Illyrian-Jewish relations are traced since the end of the second millennium before CE. By the end of the XII century BC many Illyrians were displaced from the Illyrian peninsula and settled in the Middle East. Amongst these tribes it is mentioned that of Peles who settled on the southern coast of Syria, by which it is thought that the country got its name – Palestine. Other authors, for example Majani Zaharia say that “it is said that the Philistines were actually Illyrians. In the West the name of this nation is iseen under different names, but always relying on its Illyrian origin….In an old Israeli map, many Illyrian names are found. Also in the Old Testament there are Philistine names. Even the ancient Jews have left their mark in Illyria. The names Finiq and Jericho are not random. Scholars think that these names correspond to names historically associated with Israel, for example Finiq from ancient Fonike; Jerikoja with Jericho in the Bible, Palasa with Palestine. Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian of the first century AD, based on a letter of the year 135 written by a king of Lacedemonia, sent to Therrotar the Great of Israel…
I mean, you can't make this stuff up. Apollodar? Scymm? Palestine as an Illyrian etyomology? What does Lacedomonia have to do with anything? And who it Therrotar? No, really, you can't make this stuff up. Khirurg ( talk) 23:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) The Romaniote stuff is nice but it's really off-topic and just plain speculation. Oricum was founded long before the Second Temple went down. Regarding the Phoenicians, there are no known Phoenician colonies in the Ionian/Adriatic, the nearest Phoenician settlements being in western Sicily. Furthermore Phoenice is and was an inland settlement, so highly unlikely. Regarding Palasa, none of the sources connect it directly to "Palestine", I only see connection between Palaeste and Palasa and Palaeste and Palestine, but no direct connection between "Palasa" and "Palestine", therefore WP:SYNTH applies. There is also zero evidence to suggest that the small village of Palasa has origins deep in antiquity. As for Shoqata e Miqesise (Friendship Society) is does not appear to meet the WP:RS criterion that it is a publisher with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. The fact that is is Israeli funded means absolutely nothing as far as reliability is concerned. There is nothing here. Only fanciful speculation and folk etymologies sourced to obscure sources, one of which fails WP:RS. The only thing we learned is that if we scrape the internet of obscure sources really, really deeply (and I mean really deeply) we can come up with some obscure author that mused about a folk etymology for almost anything. What's next, "Sparta" from "Subartu"? "Argos" from "Uruk".? Khirurg ( talk) 06:54, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) Thanks for providing the quotes and translations. Now, I don't see anything about Palasa and Phoenice, so I assume those are moot. Regarding Oricum, it appears is may have been called "Ericho/Jericho" in the medieval period, but I don't see anything about antiquity. Biblical names in the middle ages were a fad, nothing unusual, but I don't think it's encyclopedia-worthy. FYI Oricum was founded by Euboean settlers as Ωρικός, it is highly unlikely they would have named their settlement about some far away village deep in the Judaen desert, whose existence they would probably not even be aware of. Khirurg ( talk) 07:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
...Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region 'Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208); the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho.
I'm in general very reluctant about reproducing fridge theories such as Philistine/Illyrian or Trojan/Illyrian alliances. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
References
@ AlexBachmann: are you referring to Çlirim, which has a mixed population? If so, feel free to modify the sentence of the lede. Cheers, Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
The census of 2011 is well documented and referenced. If someone doesnt like it it doesnt mean that it should not be written here. Thank You! RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 17:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
The data on births and deaths about each municipality are public https://www.instat.gov.al/al/temat/treguesit-demografik%C3%AB-dhe-social%C3%AB/lindjet-vdekjet-dhe-martesat/#tab2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by HokutoKen ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
@Khirurg If you have RS sources to support your claim, you are free to add that to. But you have no right to remove the data who are well sourced and meet WP:RS. Otherwise you're being disruptive and I have to report it. HokutoKen ( talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)