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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Please note that the newly added mention of the Kamianets-Podilskyi massacre by Chianti ( talk · contribs) in section "Phase one: killing squads of Operation Barbarossa" has already been featured in the below section titled "Final Solution in Reichskommissariat Ukraine." Either Chianti (139 edits since 2015) did not read the whole article, or felt it necessary to mention the massacre earlier first. The newly added line was skilfully copy-edited by User:0xF8E8 who nevertheless left the second mention of the massacre as is. Next edit pending. Poeticbent talk 02:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
One might note that this term is a fairly common pre-war term for the removal of minority populations. The correct term of this section of the Wiki ought be 'final solution to the jewish problem'.
Search eg google 'final solution to the german question', and also eg
/info/en/?search=Final_Solution_of_the_Czech_Question
/info/en/?search=Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia
The Rise of the Great Powers 1648 - 1815 https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1317872843 Derek Mckay, H.M. Scott - 2014 - History ther partition as a final solution to the Polish question, for the situation created by the second partition was intrinsically unstable. Catherine's troops remained in ...
I don't deny the Holocaust did not occur, but 'final solution' is not identically equal to it.
One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes). Wendy.krieger ( talk) 11:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Banner at top of article states: "This article is about the Nazi Germany policy. For other uses, see
Final Solution (disambiguation)."
Final Solution (disambiguation) states: "Final Solution primarily refers to the Nazi plan to kill all the Jews in Europe which culminated in the
Holocaust."
Final Solution (disambiguation) then goes on to list other uses of this term, which do not include "the expelling of millions of germans to other countries" (sic) or "what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros." (sic)
Mick gold (
talk)
23:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The title says General Government, the text informs among others about Słonim and Auschwitz, both outside GG. Xx236 ( talk) 06:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
A link to an animated map has been removed from "Ext. links" because it does not work. In fact it works, at least in Firefox and MS Edge, and its terse wording and animation may have added something to the Wiki page. It is only unfortunate that the closing words of the clip are limited to the amount of killed European Jews, which was the main and most important outcome of "The Final Solution (The Holocaust, The Shoah)", but not the only one, particularly if we consider the clip's title and its somewhat ambiguous/imprecise meaning. Carlotm ( talk) 21:08, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
On 18 December 1941, Himmler asked Hitler, "What to do with the Jews of Russia?" ?
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The article needs to include recent discoveries published by Conze et al, in " Das Amt" [1] which makes it clear that at least as early as 1941 the German Foreign office was complicit in the destruction of European Jewry. [2] Mathglot ( talk) 09:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
References
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David Cesarani's "Final Solution"David Cesarani's Final Solution: The Fate Of The European Jews 1933-49 (2016) is an important overview of this subject, which synthesises the latest research in several areas. The thrust of Cesarani's narrative is how haphazard and inconsistent Nazi policy was towards the Jews. Above all, Cesarani argues the Final Solution was shaped by the fast-changing conditions of war. For Cesarani, the fact that the Nazis were ultimately successful in killing 5 to 6 million Jews was not due to the efficiency of the Third Reich or the clarity of their policies. "Rather, the catastrophic rate of killing was due to German persistence… and the duration of the murderous campaigns. This last factor was largely a consequence of allied military failure." (Cesarani, Final Solution, p. 796) I have added a summary of Cesarani to the "Historiographic debate about the decision". I noticed that the 16 December 1941 statement by Hans Frank, "But what will happen to the Jews? Do you believe they will be lodged in settlements in Ostland? In Berlin, we were told: why all this trouble; we cannot use them in the Ostland or the Reichskommissariat either; liquidate them yourselves!" is in the article twice. First, towards the end of the Barbarossa section, and second, towards the end of the Historiographic debate. I think it works well the first time it is quoted, no need to repeat it in historiographic section. I've replaced it with part of Himmler's 4 October 1943 Posen speech. Cesarani notes that as the German military position worsened in 1943, the Nazi high command became more explicit about the Final Solution and used knowledge of "the fate of the Jews as a sort of blood bond to tie the civil and military leadership to the Nazi cause." I've left the Ron Rosenbaum quote in at the end of Historiographic debate. I'm not sure if it adds anything to the article, but would like to hear from others whether it should be removed. Mick gold ( talk) 15:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The final solution and the use of the words 'extermination' 'extermination camps'The Wannasse conference is where they planned the 'expulsion' of the jews, no one ever use the words extermination on paper, the closest thing to that happening was when they liquidated the ghettos' thanks to the SS office, but the wannasse conference never talked about extermination. "that extermination camps such as Auschwitz II Birkenau and Treblinka were fitted with permanent gas chambers to kill large numbers of Jews in a relatively short period of time" Not really, they had crematoriums built to get rid of bodies of course, but their preferred method for getting rid of the mentally/physically handicap was to gas them and then send them back to loved ones as ashes. Inside the camps they had over 1 million people in a camp meant for just 100k, so to think that no one would ever die there is crazy, even if the crematoriums were used to cover up the murders. The people they deemed unfit to do physical labour like the really old gypsies and really young were locked in the shower rooms and someone would stop by with containers of zyklon-B, a fumigation insecticide. This method was actually proposed by Aushwitz SS physician Joseph Mengele! I'm just not too sure of the words being used here, and the words being associated with 'the final solution,' on other sites. Remember that at the time being an illegal immigrant, communist or gay in America could get you locked up as well. If you tried to sneak out of Ukraine, Russia would send you and your family to a labor camp, where you'd work to death. When the 3rd Reich asked other countries if they had ' the jewish question,' they were asking specifically about the census and whether or not they should deport them. Finland said no and ultimately all of their Jews were spared. 50% in Germany and 20% in France were not. The prisoners in the prison camps were only fed 200 calories a day. In the labor camps 350 calories. (This is my main gripe about the camps.) So the methods weren't so much extermination, but neglect and mass starvation. If they were lucky they were fed one hard rocky potato, else they'd get a watery soup instead. The non-jewish prisoners were supposedly fed a real diet, but I'm not sure where this took place, only that it was happening in 1941. Add to that the decay with sickness' like typhus is why everyone's head is shaven in the pictures, because of fleas and body lice. Also about 400k people died after the camps were liberated because the allies didn't understand they couldn't digest food. I really think that that the words 'extermination' and 'extermination camp' ignore the realities of those prison camps back then, before and after the war. The Germans outside the camps had no idea what was going on, they just smelt a terrible odor. Also the six million figure comes no where close to the amount of jews in the camps. No more then 250k jews died at aushwitz the other 1 million people that died were polish, russian p.o.w.'s and slovaks. This is verifiable truth if you look at the Aushwitz memorial. There were another five camps in eastern Poland, where people died/were gassed I'm sure, but the 'six million jews dying' did not specifically take place in the prison camps themselves. Six million people in the camps maybe, but six million jews in the camps? Not likely.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.63.166 ( talk) 21:18, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
|
Hey there, the article says that 5000 or so people died, but this other article /info/en/?search=Police_Battalion_309 said that 2,000 did. And so does the article on the Great Synagogue.
It is unclear what the "first mass killing" it refers to here means.
The burning, or the entire episode?
Qwartz2003 ( talk) 09:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
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Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the background section, change
For example, Mark Roseman wrote that "their normal mode of communicating about murder".
to
For example, Mark Roseman wrote that euphemisms were "their normal mode of communicating about murder".
This sentence was mangled in a recent edit (3rd of July 2020). 91.87.92.1 ( talk) 10:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
194.140.216.70 ( talk) 09:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC) .
I would like to see another section on this page where the 'final solution' language is compared to language used in other genocides. One of the Qing Emperors said before the Dzungar genocide that “We must now consider how to pull up the roots entirely, wipe out the remaining followers, and clean up everything permanently with one blow." [3] p.155. The author makes a direct parallel to the 'final solution' wording. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 14:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
The source Herf (2005) is cited twice in the article but missing from the bibliography. I think that it is likely this article but don't have access to the full text to check. If any editor reading this has access to the article could they check it and add the source information to the bibliography if appropriate? Thanks, Wham2001 ( talk) 12:11, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change:
The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of a the Holocaust in Poland.
To:
The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of the Holocaust in Poland. Wikburner ( talk) 19:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
what is the Nazi solutions to world 117.222.4.190 ( talk) 05:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On February 26, 2022, the website of the Russian news agency RIA Novosti published an article by columnist Pyotr Akopov entitled “The Offensive of Russia and the New World”. After a negative reaction on the Internet, the material from the site disappeared, but is preserved in the web archive. In the text, the author discusses the "Russian world", represented by Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, its relations with the West. He also notes that Russia could not refuse to “return” Ukraine, and “Vladimir Putin took on a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations.” <ref> [4]</ ref> 93.170.114.238 ( talk) 11:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
In Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth, Gita Sereny relayed the following anecdote. Christa Schroeder, one of Hitler's secretaries, had an encounter with Heinrich Himmler after one of his long meetings with Hitler:
“I clearly remember a day in 1941, I think it was in early spring,” she said. “I don’t think 1 will ever forget Himmler’s face when he came out after one of his long, ‘under four eyes’ conferences with Hitler. He sat down heavily in the chair on the other side of my desk and buried his face in his hands, his elbows on the desk, ‘My God, my God,’ he said, ‘what I am expected to do.’
“Later, much later,” she said, “when we found out what had been done, I was sure that that was the day Hitler told him the Jews had to be killed.” (Sereny, pp. 248-249).
I think this could make a useful inclusion into the article. It's speculative, of course, but so is much about the the decision-making process -- that's the whole reason for the functionalist-intentionalist debate. Sereny goes on to say that Speer thought that Schroeder's conclusions about the import of the meeting were "highly probable," in her words. Sacxpert ( talk) 02:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm making an addition here so there's no edit warring, but an individual's Jewishness isn't only defined in the religious way (Halakha). Like a secular Ashkenazi Jew is still a Jew. Also, other articles on Wikipedia seem to adhere to Jewish ancestry/ethnicity being enough to be described as Jewish. Rhayailaina ( talk) 21:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Please note that the newly added mention of the Kamianets-Podilskyi massacre by Chianti ( talk · contribs) in section "Phase one: killing squads of Operation Barbarossa" has already been featured in the below section titled "Final Solution in Reichskommissariat Ukraine." Either Chianti (139 edits since 2015) did not read the whole article, or felt it necessary to mention the massacre earlier first. The newly added line was skilfully copy-edited by User:0xF8E8 who nevertheless left the second mention of the massacre as is. Next edit pending. Poeticbent talk 02:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
One might note that this term is a fairly common pre-war term for the removal of minority populations. The correct term of this section of the Wiki ought be 'final solution to the jewish problem'.
Search eg google 'final solution to the german question', and also eg
/info/en/?search=Final_Solution_of_the_Czech_Question
/info/en/?search=Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia
The Rise of the Great Powers 1648 - 1815 https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1317872843 Derek Mckay, H.M. Scott - 2014 - History ther partition as a final solution to the Polish question, for the situation created by the second partition was intrinsically unstable. Catherine's troops remained in ...
I don't deny the Holocaust did not occur, but 'final solution' is not identically equal to it.
One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes). Wendy.krieger ( talk) 11:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Banner at top of article states: "This article is about the Nazi Germany policy. For other uses, see
Final Solution (disambiguation)."
Final Solution (disambiguation) states: "Final Solution primarily refers to the Nazi plan to kill all the Jews in Europe which culminated in the
Holocaust."
Final Solution (disambiguation) then goes on to list other uses of this term, which do not include "the expelling of millions of germans to other countries" (sic) or "what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros." (sic)
Mick gold (
talk)
23:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The title says General Government, the text informs among others about Słonim and Auschwitz, both outside GG. Xx236 ( talk) 06:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
A link to an animated map has been removed from "Ext. links" because it does not work. In fact it works, at least in Firefox and MS Edge, and its terse wording and animation may have added something to the Wiki page. It is only unfortunate that the closing words of the clip are limited to the amount of killed European Jews, which was the main and most important outcome of "The Final Solution (The Holocaust, The Shoah)", but not the only one, particularly if we consider the clip's title and its somewhat ambiguous/imprecise meaning. Carlotm ( talk) 21:08, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
On 18 December 1941, Himmler asked Hitler, "What to do with the Jews of Russia?" ?
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The article needs to include recent discoveries published by Conze et al, in " Das Amt" [1] which makes it clear that at least as early as 1941 the German Foreign office was complicit in the destruction of European Jewry. [2] Mathglot ( talk) 09:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
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David Cesarani's "Final Solution"David Cesarani's Final Solution: The Fate Of The European Jews 1933-49 (2016) is an important overview of this subject, which synthesises the latest research in several areas. The thrust of Cesarani's narrative is how haphazard and inconsistent Nazi policy was towards the Jews. Above all, Cesarani argues the Final Solution was shaped by the fast-changing conditions of war. For Cesarani, the fact that the Nazis were ultimately successful in killing 5 to 6 million Jews was not due to the efficiency of the Third Reich or the clarity of their policies. "Rather, the catastrophic rate of killing was due to German persistence… and the duration of the murderous campaigns. This last factor was largely a consequence of allied military failure." (Cesarani, Final Solution, p. 796) I have added a summary of Cesarani to the "Historiographic debate about the decision". I noticed that the 16 December 1941 statement by Hans Frank, "But what will happen to the Jews? Do you believe they will be lodged in settlements in Ostland? In Berlin, we were told: why all this trouble; we cannot use them in the Ostland or the Reichskommissariat either; liquidate them yourselves!" is in the article twice. First, towards the end of the Barbarossa section, and second, towards the end of the Historiographic debate. I think it works well the first time it is quoted, no need to repeat it in historiographic section. I've replaced it with part of Himmler's 4 October 1943 Posen speech. Cesarani notes that as the German military position worsened in 1943, the Nazi high command became more explicit about the Final Solution and used knowledge of "the fate of the Jews as a sort of blood bond to tie the civil and military leadership to the Nazi cause." I've left the Ron Rosenbaum quote in at the end of Historiographic debate. I'm not sure if it adds anything to the article, but would like to hear from others whether it should be removed. Mick gold ( talk) 15:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The final solution and the use of the words 'extermination' 'extermination camps'The Wannasse conference is where they planned the 'expulsion' of the jews, no one ever use the words extermination on paper, the closest thing to that happening was when they liquidated the ghettos' thanks to the SS office, but the wannasse conference never talked about extermination. "that extermination camps such as Auschwitz II Birkenau and Treblinka were fitted with permanent gas chambers to kill large numbers of Jews in a relatively short period of time" Not really, they had crematoriums built to get rid of bodies of course, but their preferred method for getting rid of the mentally/physically handicap was to gas them and then send them back to loved ones as ashes. Inside the camps they had over 1 million people in a camp meant for just 100k, so to think that no one would ever die there is crazy, even if the crematoriums were used to cover up the murders. The people they deemed unfit to do physical labour like the really old gypsies and really young were locked in the shower rooms and someone would stop by with containers of zyklon-B, a fumigation insecticide. This method was actually proposed by Aushwitz SS physician Joseph Mengele! I'm just not too sure of the words being used here, and the words being associated with 'the final solution,' on other sites. Remember that at the time being an illegal immigrant, communist or gay in America could get you locked up as well. If you tried to sneak out of Ukraine, Russia would send you and your family to a labor camp, where you'd work to death. When the 3rd Reich asked other countries if they had ' the jewish question,' they were asking specifically about the census and whether or not they should deport them. Finland said no and ultimately all of their Jews were spared. 50% in Germany and 20% in France were not. The prisoners in the prison camps were only fed 200 calories a day. In the labor camps 350 calories. (This is my main gripe about the camps.) So the methods weren't so much extermination, but neglect and mass starvation. If they were lucky they were fed one hard rocky potato, else they'd get a watery soup instead. The non-jewish prisoners were supposedly fed a real diet, but I'm not sure where this took place, only that it was happening in 1941. Add to that the decay with sickness' like typhus is why everyone's head is shaven in the pictures, because of fleas and body lice. Also about 400k people died after the camps were liberated because the allies didn't understand they couldn't digest food. I really think that that the words 'extermination' and 'extermination camp' ignore the realities of those prison camps back then, before and after the war. The Germans outside the camps had no idea what was going on, they just smelt a terrible odor. Also the six million figure comes no where close to the amount of jews in the camps. No more then 250k jews died at aushwitz the other 1 million people that died were polish, russian p.o.w.'s and slovaks. This is verifiable truth if you look at the Aushwitz memorial. There were another five camps in eastern Poland, where people died/were gassed I'm sure, but the 'six million jews dying' did not specifically take place in the prison camps themselves. Six million people in the camps maybe, but six million jews in the camps? Not likely.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.63.166 ( talk) 21:18, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
|
Hey there, the article says that 5000 or so people died, but this other article /info/en/?search=Police_Battalion_309 said that 2,000 did. And so does the article on the Great Synagogue.
It is unclear what the "first mass killing" it refers to here means.
The burning, or the entire episode?
Qwartz2003 ( talk) 09:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the background section, change
For example, Mark Roseman wrote that "their normal mode of communicating about murder".
to
For example, Mark Roseman wrote that euphemisms were "their normal mode of communicating about murder".
This sentence was mangled in a recent edit (3rd of July 2020). 91.87.92.1 ( talk) 10:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
194.140.216.70 ( talk) 09:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC) .
I would like to see another section on this page where the 'final solution' language is compared to language used in other genocides. One of the Qing Emperors said before the Dzungar genocide that “We must now consider how to pull up the roots entirely, wipe out the remaining followers, and clean up everything permanently with one blow." [3] p.155. The author makes a direct parallel to the 'final solution' wording. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 14:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
The source Herf (2005) is cited twice in the article but missing from the bibliography. I think that it is likely this article but don't have access to the full text to check. If any editor reading this has access to the article could they check it and add the source information to the bibliography if appropriate? Thanks, Wham2001 ( talk) 12:11, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change:
The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of a the Holocaust in Poland.
To:
The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of the Holocaust in Poland. Wikburner ( talk) 19:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
what is the Nazi solutions to world 117.222.4.190 ( talk) 05:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Final Solution has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On February 26, 2022, the website of the Russian news agency RIA Novosti published an article by columnist Pyotr Akopov entitled “The Offensive of Russia and the New World”. After a negative reaction on the Internet, the material from the site disappeared, but is preserved in the web archive. In the text, the author discusses the "Russian world", represented by Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, its relations with the West. He also notes that Russia could not refuse to “return” Ukraine, and “Vladimir Putin took on a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations.” <ref> [4]</ ref> 93.170.114.238 ( talk) 11:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
In Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth, Gita Sereny relayed the following anecdote. Christa Schroeder, one of Hitler's secretaries, had an encounter with Heinrich Himmler after one of his long meetings with Hitler:
“I clearly remember a day in 1941, I think it was in early spring,” she said. “I don’t think 1 will ever forget Himmler’s face when he came out after one of his long, ‘under four eyes’ conferences with Hitler. He sat down heavily in the chair on the other side of my desk and buried his face in his hands, his elbows on the desk, ‘My God, my God,’ he said, ‘what I am expected to do.’
“Later, much later,” she said, “when we found out what had been done, I was sure that that was the day Hitler told him the Jews had to be killed.” (Sereny, pp. 248-249).
I think this could make a useful inclusion into the article. It's speculative, of course, but so is much about the the decision-making process -- that's the whole reason for the functionalist-intentionalist debate. Sereny goes on to say that Speer thought that Schroeder's conclusions about the import of the meeting were "highly probable," in her words. Sacxpert ( talk) 02:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm making an addition here so there's no edit warring, but an individual's Jewishness isn't only defined in the religious way (Halakha). Like a secular Ashkenazi Jew is still a Jew. Also, other articles on Wikipedia seem to adhere to Jewish ancestry/ethnicity being enough to be described as Jewish. Rhayailaina ( talk) 21:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)