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The article describes Fianna Fail as a conservative political party. However, it is also described as a "catch-all" party. Do those two terms contradict each other? Also, with only one exception that I can see, the sources cited for the proposition that Fianna Fail is conservative are 20th-century sources. Is it possible that the "conservative" characterization is outdated? I am an American, so it is possible that these terms mean something different in Ireland than they do in my country. SunCrow ( talk) 09:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources). One person's view is not a consensus. Here is a recent source that refers to the party as conservative:
There have been concerns raised within the SDLP about the co-operation and possible merger between them and Fianna Fáil, seeming mostly on the basis of Fianna Fáil being viewed as politically conservative. This has been covered by multiple sources. They can't really be used as citations for conservatism as they quote the views of SDLP members and thus this is not a statement of fact, however I think its noteworthy to mention here. For example the views of the Chairman of SDLP Youth are expressed here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690 .
We could possibly move conservatism to a 'sections' heading under ideology based on this source - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/micheal-martin-ireland-opposition-leader-wants-to-liberalise-abortion-law . However, I would not support this unless either more sources can be found that support this view and/or another primary ideology can be established and cited. This is because conservatism as a general ideology of the party has more sources at the moment. Helper201 ( talk) 00:52, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I think this section/debate needs more than two people. I also think Helper201's first statement here is the correct one - "There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources)." The original ideology should be restored, per WP:BRD and WP:CON, unless there is consensus to change it. That consensus is not yet present. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
The Allen citation in the Quarterly Review nowhere said that Fianna Fáil was conservative. It only questioned Bertie Ahern's assertion that FF was left wing. Fiachra10003 ( talk) 21:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
Similarly BudgeRobertson1987, which contradicts itself by saying, on one page (p. 137), that Fianna Fáil is "roughly in the centre" and, along with Fine Gael, "essentially conservative". Fiachra10003 ( talk) 21:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Disputed whether conservatism should be included as an ideology on the party in the infobox. More information can be found on the talk page. Helper201 ( talk) 04:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
No As I have argued above, I don't think the "conservative" description is accurate (see, e.g., https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-more-in-line-with-labour-than-fine-gael-says-howlin-1.3749359, https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/centre-wont-hold-if-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-keep-moving-left-35133828.html, https://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/12/fianna-fail-the-republican-party/, and https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0227/Enda-Kenny-hails-democratic-revolution-in-Ireland). Also, it isn't consistent with the nuanced description set forth in the ideology section of the article. Given what the sources say, and given the concerns that have been expressed for years on this talk page about the difficulties of identifying the party's ideology, I recommend that we leave the ideology section of the infobox blank. SunCrow ( talk) 02:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
No... this Party's ideology is now nebulous. As memories of civil conflict have faded, however, it has become especially difficult to define the ideological and policy distinctions between the two parties. ... Despite a level of religious conservatism within Fianna Fail, few have classified it as Christian Democrat, but Fianna Fail is no further from the archetypal Christian Democrat party than Fine Gael. ... if there is no difference between the two parties then why do they maintain an independent existence? The argument from the left is that this creates an illusion of choice for the electorate. It allows Fine Gael and Fianna Fail to stifle political competition, preventing the emergence of left versus right politics that occurs in most other European countries. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-spot-the-difference-is-the-war-ending-for-tweedledum-and-tweedledee-of-politics-37562719.html Hence, I agree that conservatism is NOT a suitable description at this time. Peter K Burian ( talk) 12:24, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes. The claim has multiple citations from reliable sources supporting it, including one from as recently as 2016. The quote given above is from an opinion piece, it is therefore not applicable to use as a citation that discredits this claim. Here are other sources where the party is referred to as conservative:
Helper201 ( talk) 17:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes it is clear from the majority of academic sources that the party is considered conservative, or at very least has strong elements of conservatism as an ideological trend.-- Autospark ( talk) 13:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes - We're into "sky is blue" territory here. It's only 18 months since this happened, and prior to that a large rump of the parliamentary party even tried to prevent the referendum happening in the first place. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:05, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
There really isn't a set ideology except Irish unity and it has members across the spectrum. Social conservativism alone does not a right-wring party make. The Communist Party of Russia for example, is socially conservative but is often considered far-left and not right-wing or syncretic. 72.72.206.209 ( talk) 18:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi Bastun, I don't agree you should have restored this text. It feels clunky and pointed, and it's not in the article's History section. Stara Marusya ( talk) 18:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The party was founded as an Irish republican party on 16 May 1926 by Éamon de Valera and his supporters after they split from Sinn Féin. De Valera and his followers were determined to take seats in the Oireachtas while Sinn Féin's policy was to refuse to recognise it.CeltBrowne ( talk) 20:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The ideology parametre looks rather bloated. Due to this, I propose reducing them to a few. Here is the option:
ValenciaThunderbolt ( talk) 17:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Irish republicanism could literally apply to all the republic’s political parties
References
... the classical-liberal German FDP, which has tried to keep a centrist position between the CDU/CSU and the SPD; the social-liberal D66; and the conservative-liberal Fianna Fail
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The article describes Fianna Fail as a conservative political party. However, it is also described as a "catch-all" party. Do those two terms contradict each other? Also, with only one exception that I can see, the sources cited for the proposition that Fianna Fail is conservative are 20th-century sources. Is it possible that the "conservative" characterization is outdated? I am an American, so it is possible that these terms mean something different in Ireland than they do in my country. SunCrow ( talk) 09:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources). One person's view is not a consensus. Here is a recent source that refers to the party as conservative:
There have been concerns raised within the SDLP about the co-operation and possible merger between them and Fianna Fáil, seeming mostly on the basis of Fianna Fáil being viewed as politically conservative. This has been covered by multiple sources. They can't really be used as citations for conservatism as they quote the views of SDLP members and thus this is not a statement of fact, however I think its noteworthy to mention here. For example the views of the Chairman of SDLP Youth are expressed here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690 .
We could possibly move conservatism to a 'sections' heading under ideology based on this source - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/micheal-martin-ireland-opposition-leader-wants-to-liberalise-abortion-law . However, I would not support this unless either more sources can be found that support this view and/or another primary ideology can be established and cited. This is because conservatism as a general ideology of the party has more sources at the moment. Helper201 ( talk) 00:52, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I think this section/debate needs more than two people. I also think Helper201's first statement here is the correct one - "There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources)." The original ideology should be restored, per WP:BRD and WP:CON, unless there is consensus to change it. That consensus is not yet present. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
The Allen citation in the Quarterly Review nowhere said that Fianna Fáil was conservative. It only questioned Bertie Ahern's assertion that FF was left wing. Fiachra10003 ( talk) 21:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
Similarly BudgeRobertson1987, which contradicts itself by saying, on one page (p. 137), that Fianna Fáil is "roughly in the centre" and, along with Fine Gael, "essentially conservative". Fiachra10003 ( talk) 21:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Disputed whether conservatism should be included as an ideology on the party in the infobox. More information can be found on the talk page. Helper201 ( talk) 04:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
No As I have argued above, I don't think the "conservative" description is accurate (see, e.g., https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-more-in-line-with-labour-than-fine-gael-says-howlin-1.3749359, https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/centre-wont-hold-if-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-keep-moving-left-35133828.html, https://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/12/fianna-fail-the-republican-party/, and https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0227/Enda-Kenny-hails-democratic-revolution-in-Ireland). Also, it isn't consistent with the nuanced description set forth in the ideology section of the article. Given what the sources say, and given the concerns that have been expressed for years on this talk page about the difficulties of identifying the party's ideology, I recommend that we leave the ideology section of the infobox blank. SunCrow ( talk) 02:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
No... this Party's ideology is now nebulous. As memories of civil conflict have faded, however, it has become especially difficult to define the ideological and policy distinctions between the two parties. ... Despite a level of religious conservatism within Fianna Fail, few have classified it as Christian Democrat, but Fianna Fail is no further from the archetypal Christian Democrat party than Fine Gael. ... if there is no difference between the two parties then why do they maintain an independent existence? The argument from the left is that this creates an illusion of choice for the electorate. It allows Fine Gael and Fianna Fail to stifle political competition, preventing the emergence of left versus right politics that occurs in most other European countries. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-spot-the-difference-is-the-war-ending-for-tweedledum-and-tweedledee-of-politics-37562719.html Hence, I agree that conservatism is NOT a suitable description at this time. Peter K Burian ( talk) 12:24, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes. The claim has multiple citations from reliable sources supporting it, including one from as recently as 2016. The quote given above is from an opinion piece, it is therefore not applicable to use as a citation that discredits this claim. Here are other sources where the party is referred to as conservative:
Helper201 ( talk) 17:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes it is clear from the majority of academic sources that the party is considered conservative, or at very least has strong elements of conservatism as an ideological trend.-- Autospark ( talk) 13:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes - We're into "sky is blue" territory here. It's only 18 months since this happened, and prior to that a large rump of the parliamentary party even tried to prevent the referendum happening in the first place. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:05, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
There really isn't a set ideology except Irish unity and it has members across the spectrum. Social conservativism alone does not a right-wring party make. The Communist Party of Russia for example, is socially conservative but is often considered far-left and not right-wing or syncretic. 72.72.206.209 ( talk) 18:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi Bastun, I don't agree you should have restored this text. It feels clunky and pointed, and it's not in the article's History section. Stara Marusya ( talk) 18:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The party was founded as an Irish republican party on 16 May 1926 by Éamon de Valera and his supporters after they split from Sinn Féin. De Valera and his followers were determined to take seats in the Oireachtas while Sinn Féin's policy was to refuse to recognise it.CeltBrowne ( talk) 20:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The ideology parametre looks rather bloated. Due to this, I propose reducing them to a few. Here is the option:
ValenciaThunderbolt ( talk) 17:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Irish republicanism could literally apply to all the republic’s political parties
References
... the classical-liberal German FDP, which has tried to keep a centrist position between the CDU/CSU and the SPD; the social-liberal D66; and the conservative-liberal Fianna Fail