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On 13 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Feminist views on prostitution to Feminist views on sex work. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 August 2020 and 24 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sah528.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Coffeebae1111.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rileywynn31.
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The statistics in "A consequence and correlate of violence against women" are quite outdated and furthermore should probably make distinctions about what definition of "prostitute" they are using. Are these statistics from anyone who has been compensated for the consumption of their sexuality? Only for people that were paid for a physical sexual interaction? Only people who worked as street prostitutes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katriona16 ( talk • contribs) 00:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Note: I'm copying this section over from Talk:Prostitution because this article got its start as a section of that article, and this section of the talk page is specific to content that is now mainly in this article. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 17:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
The 'Feminism' section of this page is extremely one-sided. Feminist discourse is quoted as though it's FACT and people like Andrea Dworkin are given additional credibility as an 'ex-prostitute', but the sex work history of (for example) Norma Jean Almodovar, isn't mentioned. The feminist sex worker rights movement is active all over the world, but it only warrants two sentences at the bottom of the section? I don't believe the feminist argument should be portrayed AT ALL in this so-called 'encyclopaedic' description of sex work, but as a sex worker activist AND a feminist, if this section exists at all it should at least be broken up into TWO sections - 'Anti-sex work Feminist Discourse' and 'Pro-sex work Feminist Discourse'. Pro-sex work feminists believe that the prohibition of sex work is a direct result of the 'patriarchy' placing conditions, shame and control over female sexuality. They don't want us charging for something that men (excuse the generalisation) expect us to give up for free. We also believe that anti-sex work feminists have done more damage to the health and safety of sex workers than the 'patriarchy' ever did. Ashkara sands ( talk) 07:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
[3] 123username ( talk) 09:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder to format your talk page comments for ease of readability. Thanks. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
This is still a completely unbalanced article, I count 22 paragraphs espousing the radical feminist view and 5 espousing the pro-sex feminist view. This is the sort of thing that gives Wikipedia a bad reputation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.240.17.161 ( talk) 17:02, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
In order to verfiy whether sex-negativity is the traditional Western view of sex, a good idea would be to find appropriate quotes from the Church Fathers on the issue of sex, and compare them to contemporary views expressed by radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin. I would argue that there is a case to be made that the two are similar, and that in a some ways, the Church has always been radically feminist in her opposition to the illicit sexual exploitation of women. This could in fact be helpful for eventual attempts to reconcile the Church with the modern feminist movement. ADM ( talk) 20:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
First, let me thank the authors of this article for creating it to begin with, since clearly an article on this subject was needed in Wikipedia.
However, as for the article that's been created, my God, where to begin! This is one of the most severely unbalanced articles I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Prostitution and pornography are one of the most contentious issues in feminism, which means that a carefully-written, balanced article giving the different feminist points of view on prostitution. Instead, we get a very long section on feminist opposition to prostitution presented as the feminist argument against prostitution, then one short paragraph presented as "alternative views on empowerment". To top it off, the author of the article makes their editorializing very apparent by liberally using scare quotes when describing sex-positive views on prostitution.
Clearly, this article is in great need of cleanup. First, it needs to be made clear that this is dispute between two feminist views on prostitution, not "the feminist view against" versus "alternative views". Second, the section on pro-sex worker views is in need of replacement with a longer section accurately summarizing the views of sex-positive feminists and sex-worker rights activists (not the same thing, BTW, though overlapping and generally allied). The strawman/soundbite view of sex-positive feminism referring to sex work as "empowering" is particularly egregious, BTW, and is a very poor summary to the nuanced view of sex work in pro-sex worker feminism. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 23:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I've done an initial cleanup of the article, rewriting areas where points of view were stated as fact, and rewriting the pro-sex worker section entirely. The article is now at least more or less factually accurate and not as editorializing. Until the section on pro-sex worker perspectives is greatly expanded, however, this article remains severely unbalanced and does not conform to WP:NPOV, so I've tagged it with an "unbalanced tag", which should remain until this problem is taken care of. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 15:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I will note again that article is hugely unbalanced based on the fact that pro-sex worker feminism is almost not covered in this article, while there is a lengthy section on abolitionist feminism. It may very well be personal political perspective of User:123Username that the latter is the only valid feminist perspective, however, I remind this editor that articles in Wikipedia must conform to WP:NPOV, not this editor's political leanings. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 20:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The first point to make is that, of course, no woman should have to work as prostitute. But then again no-one should go hungry in this world either and many, many millions do go hungry. This is Earth not Heaven. So some women, many women, do work as prostitutes. How much choice these women have varies enormously. I am reminded of a joke by Mark Twain:- Man to woman "Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?" Woman "Oh yes", Man "How about for ten dollars? Woman "What kind of of woman do you I think I am?" Man "We've already established that, now we are just haggling about the price" This sums up the problem. Within the basic class of prostitution ie. woman provides sex for man for money there are huge differences of price and therefore the nature of the job. At the bottom end of the market there are the crack-addicted street prostitutes who will give blow-jobs for £20/$30 or so, whose existence seems so utterly miserable they are slaves in all but name. Then at the higher end there are women in flats in central London/New York/Chicago etc who can easily earn £1000/$1500 (tax-free) for one day's work and will only work one day a week if they chose and may well plan to retire by the time they are thirty five. Although both these sets of workers are prostitutes they have nothing in common at all. Until we can distinguish between these very different groups the whole argument is meaningless and this distinction should be mentioned in the article as it is crucial. If all prostitutes were the very badly paid crack-addicted street prostitutes then the anti-prostitution camp would be right but not all prostitutes are thus and so they are wrong in my opinion. I will try and work this into the article soon if no-one objects SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 12:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I've added several chunks of material from Abolition of Prostitution, which just underwent an AfD process, and will be merged out and deleted. I regret that this material will further unbalance the article, but hope that it can be edited, salvaged, or merged elsewhere. Quite a lot of the material is social science research on women who perform sex work, so maybe there is a better home for it.
Please note that POV and WP:ESSAY issues in this material, which I am trying to limit as I move the material, remain, and that the POV is not mine, but that of the editors who constructed Abolition of Prostitution.
Finally, this article seems to focus on political views, rather than political activism. Any suggestions on where feminist activism on prostitution (from either side) should go? Thanks!-- Carwil ( talk) 21:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Does feminism have any particular stance on male prostitution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.163.203.134 ( talk) 02:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
I am questioning a part of the article: "Third, all feminists recognize that commercial sex workers are subject to economic coercion and are often victims of violence, and that little is done to address these problems.”[3] Newman and White (2012). Women Power and Public Policy. Oxford University Press. p. 247. ISBN 0195432495.
Citation #3 does not appear to be correct. The title of ISBN 0195432495 is Women, Politics, and Public Policy: The Political Struggles of Canadian Women not Women Power and Public Policy
Is the use of the word all (all feminists recognize) based on the information in this text? I can argue that not all feminists agree with the stated point of view. I might agree with using the word most in place of the word all. I could not find a copy of the text to verify if it states that all (100%) of feminists recognize these issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.162.221 ( talk) 20:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
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The section on pro-sex worker perspectives was a wall of text, so I'm doing a re-org. This mostly does not involve change of content, but addition of new H3 sub-headers, in parallel with the sub-headers already present in the #Arguments against prostitution section just above it.
This re-org adds new sub-section headers over existing content, with the names, #Economic empowerment, #Support groups, #Self empowerment, #Marriage analogy, and #Acceptance of women's sexuality. Feel free to improve the section titles.
The re-org also leaves a paragraph of introduction above the first new sub-header. The first three sentences of the intro are a restatement of the arguments against prostitution:
Traditional feminist views consider prostitution to be a flagrant example of male dominance over women. Feminists that oppose the practice do not consider prostitution to be a free choice, or a choice made completely of a woman’s own volition or autonomy. Rather, prostitution and sex work are considered to be the most pronounced examples of how society considers the female body to be a commodity ready for purchase.
Since the long #Arguments against prostitution section immediately above this one goes into great detail about the arguments against, it seems to me there's no need to duplicate those arguments here, so I removed those sentences. Re-org is ongoing. Mathglot ( talk) 22:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I edited the section on "transgender, non-binary, and male sex workers" and was wondering if the page could be changed to be worded more gender neutrally? When writing about abolitionist feminists the feminists themselves usually discuss prostitution in terms of women sex workers, as well as the sections on violence against women being of course explicitly about women, but other sections such as the one on "economic empowerment" is still worded with women in mind. As not all people performing prostitution are women should the wording be changed? Thanks! Sah528 ( talk) 07:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 02:58, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Feminist views on prostitution be
renamed and moved to
Feminist views on sex work.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Feminist views on prostitution → Feminist views on sex work – "Sex work" is broader, and the article already mentions that many of these overlap. AFreshStart ( talk) 21:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
The contents of the Feminist views on prostitution page were merged into Feminist views on the sex industry on 13 August 2023 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Feminist views on prostitution redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 13 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Feminist views on prostitution to Feminist views on sex work. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 August 2020 and 24 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sah528.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Coffeebae1111.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rileywynn31.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The statistics in "A consequence and correlate of violence against women" are quite outdated and furthermore should probably make distinctions about what definition of "prostitute" they are using. Are these statistics from anyone who has been compensated for the consumption of their sexuality? Only for people that were paid for a physical sexual interaction? Only people who worked as street prostitutes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katriona16 ( talk • contribs) 00:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Note: I'm copying this section over from Talk:Prostitution because this article got its start as a section of that article, and this section of the talk page is specific to content that is now mainly in this article. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 17:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
The 'Feminism' section of this page is extremely one-sided. Feminist discourse is quoted as though it's FACT and people like Andrea Dworkin are given additional credibility as an 'ex-prostitute', but the sex work history of (for example) Norma Jean Almodovar, isn't mentioned. The feminist sex worker rights movement is active all over the world, but it only warrants two sentences at the bottom of the section? I don't believe the feminist argument should be portrayed AT ALL in this so-called 'encyclopaedic' description of sex work, but as a sex worker activist AND a feminist, if this section exists at all it should at least be broken up into TWO sections - 'Anti-sex work Feminist Discourse' and 'Pro-sex work Feminist Discourse'. Pro-sex work feminists believe that the prohibition of sex work is a direct result of the 'patriarchy' placing conditions, shame and control over female sexuality. They don't want us charging for something that men (excuse the generalisation) expect us to give up for free. We also believe that anti-sex work feminists have done more damage to the health and safety of sex workers than the 'patriarchy' ever did. Ashkara sands ( talk) 07:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
[3] 123username ( talk) 09:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder to format your talk page comments for ease of readability. Thanks. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
This is still a completely unbalanced article, I count 22 paragraphs espousing the radical feminist view and 5 espousing the pro-sex feminist view. This is the sort of thing that gives Wikipedia a bad reputation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.240.17.161 ( talk) 17:02, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
In order to verfiy whether sex-negativity is the traditional Western view of sex, a good idea would be to find appropriate quotes from the Church Fathers on the issue of sex, and compare them to contemporary views expressed by radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin. I would argue that there is a case to be made that the two are similar, and that in a some ways, the Church has always been radically feminist in her opposition to the illicit sexual exploitation of women. This could in fact be helpful for eventual attempts to reconcile the Church with the modern feminist movement. ADM ( talk) 20:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
First, let me thank the authors of this article for creating it to begin with, since clearly an article on this subject was needed in Wikipedia.
However, as for the article that's been created, my God, where to begin! This is one of the most severely unbalanced articles I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Prostitution and pornography are one of the most contentious issues in feminism, which means that a carefully-written, balanced article giving the different feminist points of view on prostitution. Instead, we get a very long section on feminist opposition to prostitution presented as the feminist argument against prostitution, then one short paragraph presented as "alternative views on empowerment". To top it off, the author of the article makes their editorializing very apparent by liberally using scare quotes when describing sex-positive views on prostitution.
Clearly, this article is in great need of cleanup. First, it needs to be made clear that this is dispute between two feminist views on prostitution, not "the feminist view against" versus "alternative views". Second, the section on pro-sex worker views is in need of replacement with a longer section accurately summarizing the views of sex-positive feminists and sex-worker rights activists (not the same thing, BTW, though overlapping and generally allied). The strawman/soundbite view of sex-positive feminism referring to sex work as "empowering" is particularly egregious, BTW, and is a very poor summary to the nuanced view of sex work in pro-sex worker feminism. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 23:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I've done an initial cleanup of the article, rewriting areas where points of view were stated as fact, and rewriting the pro-sex worker section entirely. The article is now at least more or less factually accurate and not as editorializing. Until the section on pro-sex worker perspectives is greatly expanded, however, this article remains severely unbalanced and does not conform to WP:NPOV, so I've tagged it with an "unbalanced tag", which should remain until this problem is taken care of. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 15:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I will note again that article is hugely unbalanced based on the fact that pro-sex worker feminism is almost not covered in this article, while there is a lengthy section on abolitionist feminism. It may very well be personal political perspective of User:123Username that the latter is the only valid feminist perspective, however, I remind this editor that articles in Wikipedia must conform to WP:NPOV, not this editor's political leanings. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 20:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The first point to make is that, of course, no woman should have to work as prostitute. But then again no-one should go hungry in this world either and many, many millions do go hungry. This is Earth not Heaven. So some women, many women, do work as prostitutes. How much choice these women have varies enormously. I am reminded of a joke by Mark Twain:- Man to woman "Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?" Woman "Oh yes", Man "How about for ten dollars? Woman "What kind of of woman do you I think I am?" Man "We've already established that, now we are just haggling about the price" This sums up the problem. Within the basic class of prostitution ie. woman provides sex for man for money there are huge differences of price and therefore the nature of the job. At the bottom end of the market there are the crack-addicted street prostitutes who will give blow-jobs for £20/$30 or so, whose existence seems so utterly miserable they are slaves in all but name. Then at the higher end there are women in flats in central London/New York/Chicago etc who can easily earn £1000/$1500 (tax-free) for one day's work and will only work one day a week if they chose and may well plan to retire by the time they are thirty five. Although both these sets of workers are prostitutes they have nothing in common at all. Until we can distinguish between these very different groups the whole argument is meaningless and this distinction should be mentioned in the article as it is crucial. If all prostitutes were the very badly paid crack-addicted street prostitutes then the anti-prostitution camp would be right but not all prostitutes are thus and so they are wrong in my opinion. I will try and work this into the article soon if no-one objects SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 12:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I've added several chunks of material from Abolition of Prostitution, which just underwent an AfD process, and will be merged out and deleted. I regret that this material will further unbalance the article, but hope that it can be edited, salvaged, or merged elsewhere. Quite a lot of the material is social science research on women who perform sex work, so maybe there is a better home for it.
Please note that POV and WP:ESSAY issues in this material, which I am trying to limit as I move the material, remain, and that the POV is not mine, but that of the editors who constructed Abolition of Prostitution.
Finally, this article seems to focus on political views, rather than political activism. Any suggestions on where feminist activism on prostitution (from either side) should go? Thanks!-- Carwil ( talk) 21:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Does feminism have any particular stance on male prostitution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.163.203.134 ( talk) 02:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
I am questioning a part of the article: "Third, all feminists recognize that commercial sex workers are subject to economic coercion and are often victims of violence, and that little is done to address these problems.”[3] Newman and White (2012). Women Power and Public Policy. Oxford University Press. p. 247. ISBN 0195432495.
Citation #3 does not appear to be correct. The title of ISBN 0195432495 is Women, Politics, and Public Policy: The Political Struggles of Canadian Women not Women Power and Public Policy
Is the use of the word all (all feminists recognize) based on the information in this text? I can argue that not all feminists agree with the stated point of view. I might agree with using the word most in place of the word all. I could not find a copy of the text to verify if it states that all (100%) of feminists recognize these issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.162.221 ( talk) 20:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Feminist views on prostitution. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:27, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
The section on pro-sex worker perspectives was a wall of text, so I'm doing a re-org. This mostly does not involve change of content, but addition of new H3 sub-headers, in parallel with the sub-headers already present in the #Arguments against prostitution section just above it.
This re-org adds new sub-section headers over existing content, with the names, #Economic empowerment, #Support groups, #Self empowerment, #Marriage analogy, and #Acceptance of women's sexuality. Feel free to improve the section titles.
The re-org also leaves a paragraph of introduction above the first new sub-header. The first three sentences of the intro are a restatement of the arguments against prostitution:
Traditional feminist views consider prostitution to be a flagrant example of male dominance over women. Feminists that oppose the practice do not consider prostitution to be a free choice, or a choice made completely of a woman’s own volition or autonomy. Rather, prostitution and sex work are considered to be the most pronounced examples of how society considers the female body to be a commodity ready for purchase.
Since the long #Arguments against prostitution section immediately above this one goes into great detail about the arguments against, it seems to me there's no need to duplicate those arguments here, so I removed those sentences. Re-org is ongoing. Mathglot ( talk) 22:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I edited the section on "transgender, non-binary, and male sex workers" and was wondering if the page could be changed to be worded more gender neutrally? When writing about abolitionist feminists the feminists themselves usually discuss prostitution in terms of women sex workers, as well as the sections on violence against women being of course explicitly about women, but other sections such as the one on "economic empowerment" is still worded with women in mind. As not all people performing prostitution are women should the wording be changed? Thanks! Sah528 ( talk) 07:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 02:58, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Feminist views on prostitution be
renamed and moved to
Feminist views on sex work.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Feminist views on prostitution → Feminist views on sex work – "Sex work" is broader, and the article already mentions that many of these overlap. AFreshStart ( talk) 21:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)