![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The first sentence under "Recruitment" says "Female guards were generally low class to middle class[1] and had no work experience; their professional background varied: one source mentions former matrons, hairdressers, street car ticket takers, opera singers, or retired teachers."
I am not sure how people who had been matrons, hairdressers, retired teachers and so on can be said to have had "no work experience". Unless someone objects, I shall remove the mention of "no work experience" or else change it to something like "some had no work experience, but others had been been matrons, hairdressers...".
Also, it would be interesting to know what the source is ("one source mentions..."). Opera singers seems an odd inclusion, partly because it seems unlikely and partly because the number of opera singers is small anyway, so why are they being talked about specifically in this context? Ondewelle ( talk), 30 September 2010
This has a lot of information, but it should be broken down into paragraphs. Someone with good literary skills should consider rewriting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.192.113 ( talk • contribs) 18:20, 19 February 2004
I am getting increasingly uneasy about this article (and several related ones). It's badly written, and we are all good enough editors to quickly change that, but before we do that we need to be able to confirm the (monstrous) accusations in these articles. Don't get me wrong: it may be all true, and the individual women that are named on this page may all indeed have been female prison guards. But we need sources for that kind of information. Thore 12:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, I have moved quite a few of the paragraphs around, so that some structure in the article may become apparent. I am still not sure what the original contributors want to say with each and every passage, so I haven't refactored individual paragraphs (much). In any case, the current structure is far from perfect, especially it lacks a section containing the first three subsections. Suggestions are welcome.
I also started to edit the huge mess that are the references. Thanks to the original authors, these were provided very quickly once the Unreferenced tag came up, and the article improved a lot. But I simply cannot use the references (in the current Notes section) to find the works in question. What is the reference called (1) and (2)? In any case, the article needs to follow the style given in Wikipedia:Cite sources. I made a brave attempt to follow this guidelines, but abandoned it because I simply don't understand what (1) and (2) actually are pointing to. I am sure the anonymous contributors can clean this up very quickly, and then removed the Unreferenced tag again. Thore 13:22, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, this article is in a horrible state. I cleaned up what I could see at a glance, but there's shitloads, if you'll excuse my French, that requires looking after. Seriously, this Brown character is not just apparently, but obviously so biased quoting him as a source would be like quoting GW Bush on terrorism as a NPOV. I removed the countless references to his more or less shady book - a Google on his full name gets less hits than my name, for crying out loud - from the article text. I removed a ton of unverifiable citations. I removed quite a bit of outright tragic English grammar and spelling. I removed certain quotes that were presented as facts, but come on "The vicious and evil -person-...". I removed irrelevant information. I removed some completely unnessecary info, like curent residence etc. I removed quite a lot, really, and I'd very much like someone else to help me, because this is not a small article, but DAMN, it needs a cleanup! And this Brown book which is quoted everywhere in the text, I have absolutely no faith in it being a factual book researched in any way. Someone that's not Dan Brown should look into it. -- TVPR 01:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
According to Guido Knopp's book 'The SS', there were more than "3000 women accepted into the SS between 1942 and 1945, and as required by their Reichsfuhrer, trained to be a 'genuinely dedicated female corps of the SS'". This implies that women were fully accepted into the SS and were indeed "true" members, contrary to the article. Can anyone shed some light on to which claim is true? ~~117th~~
Can you make new pages? Thank you.
transl. by Google From, Deutsche Wikipedia Günther Tamaschke (* 26. Februar 1896 in Berlin; † 14. Oktober 1959) SS-Standartenführer (1935) Camp director of KZ Lichtenburg and of KZ Ravensbrück. Tamaschke, who had his last residence in Uhingen after the war, died in 1959.
74.239.209.92 ( talk) 07:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Ravensbrueck, relevant info.
There between 500 and 1,000 women camp personnel were held while the US Army investigated their crimes and camp service. The majority of them were released because male SS were the top priority.
SS-gefolge (females SS)
Anna Fest , acq and released. born 1920
Lieschen (Liesl), Anna Luise Rech was born in Oranienburg, Germany on January 10, 1923. In 1940 she married and received the name Lieschen Laskowski. In 1944 Lieschen was conscripted and sent to the Flossenburg concentration camp to be trained as a camp guard. Eventually the overseer served in various camps; Mittweida, Oranienburg Auer III, Ravensbruck, Gelsenkirchen, Buchenwald, and last in the Buchenwald subcamp at Benefeld, Germany. In April 1945 she fled the camp and was never apprehended. Lieschen has never been tried by any Allied Armies for war crimes.
Christine Holthöwer. acq due to 'lack of evidence.' aufseherrin. Chief warden of Siemens.
Anna Friederike Mathilde Klein -Plaubel, Oberaufseherrin, Acquittal due to lack of evidence
The position of Oberaufseherin was the highest function in a women concentration camp, which a woman could reach as a guard in the SS retinue.
Hedwig Ullrich, belzec
Correct spelling is : Maria Mandl, not Mandel.
74.239.209.92 ( talk) 05:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
I assume that this article is well-researched but, frankly, I am shocked that more of these female concentration camp guards faced no punishment for their cruelty. I know it was during a war but when you read survivors' accounts, it sounds like many guards actually unnecessarily brutally. When I read over the accounts of those few who were executed, it seems pretty random, which ones were prosecuted and which ones were not even tried. How were they reintegrated into German society after all of thousands of deaths they were involved in? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 02:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
The use of "today" in the headings is really poor form. I think the attempt is to distinguish near-term post-war trials from later ones. A better solution should be found. The Dissident Aggressor 13:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
In its current version, there is a lot of confusion on the issue of SS-Gefolge vs. SS-Helferinnenkorps. For comparison, see German articles de:SS-Gefolge vs. de:SS-Helferinnenkorps. Most (if not all) female guards in concentration camps were members of the SS-Gefolge and therefor not members of the SS. Only SS-Helferinnen were full SS members, however, I don't know of a single SS-Helferin who was a guard (but that doesn't mean there wasn't one I'm not aware of). The problem of the article is, that it talks about guards, but cites literature on Helferinnen (compare notes #4 & #5). Note #6 is offline and also doesn't look as if it ever was a reliable source in the first place. The claim that there were female members of Totenkopf units seems to be originated in note #6 and is absolutely absurd – no women were ever member of a Totenkopf unit! Again, SS-Helferin was the closest a woman could get to being a member of the Waffen-SS. I doubt even the claim of female members of the Allgemeine SS … I only have some insight of German literature, so please provide English language research for this article. Thanks a lot! :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.53.92 ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
In order to avoid the distasteful possibility of trivialising the suffering of millions, by including references to film treatments of the article subject, even including soft porn references, might I suggest creating a separate page for pop culture references? Although, it promises to have an unweildy title, along the lines of Female guards in Nazi concentration camps in popular culture
Nuttyskin ( talk) 02:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Hello all- I have moved this article to what I think is a title more in line with current Wikipedia practice. For reference, I am pasting a discussion from 2005 below. It was deleted instead of archived. ( diff url of 2005 discussion).
==About the title==
- actually Aufseherin is only the german word for female attendant, warden or overseer ... it is not a word created by the Nazi .. it existed and still exists and is on use today ... Sicherlich 22:03, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Yup. I wonder if this is a neologism. It is possible that this is a very recently introduced word in English (that hasn't found its way into any of my English dictionaries yet), but as the article starts now, it is highly misleading. Google finds 10000 hits for Aufseherin (in all kinds of meaning, not related to concentration camps), but when I restrict to English pages, I get 231. Most of these are about concentration camps, but some aren't. (One is about the play Elektra.) Thore 15:26, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I've tried to read a bit more... we need some confirmation that 'Aufseherin' is the correct (and only) English term for this job. That's easy enough to do if correct -- just cite some books. If on the other hand it is just a neologism born of ignorance of German, then it has to go and replaced by Female Overseer or something similar. (This would be comparable to having an entry named "Soldat" that refers specifially to German soldiers in a specific war.) I will leave this message here for a while; in the absence of sources for this term I will then list it article on Votes for Deletion (with the reason neologism), with the intention of having the article renamed or moved to a page about the structure of concentration camps. Thore 15:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just be bold and move the article. I think that it's a generic term (not a proper noun) that translates to Overseer, based om my (admittedly not super) knowledge of german. -- Improv 17:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Imrov, I agree on moving or renaming the page, but where to? What is the English term? By the way, your German is spot on. I've tried to check some German sources, and they use the term Aufseherin, but also Wächterin (which just means guard). It's not our knowledge of German that is the problem. It's our knowledge of English. As I said, this might just be the proper English term, and thus have a very narrow meaning. Just like Anschluss means one and only one thing in English, but lots of things in German (telephone connection, for example). I am not the one to make that call, having English only as my third language, and having very little knowledge about Nazi terminology in English history books. Thore 17:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have renamed the page as per Improv's suggestions, and tried to write an introductory sentence. This page still needs lots of attention. (And I ought to update the pages that link to the old page...) Thore 09:54, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps
- Female Prison Camp Guards in Nazi Germany (perhaps more accurate, as they were presumably used in puppet states outside of Germany proper)
- Women Prison Guards in the Third Reich
- -- Improv 19:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think everyone will agree that Aufseherin is a much more likely search term than Female guards in Nazi concentration camps. Eric talk 16:58, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There's consensus to not move the title. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 14:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Aufseherin (Nazi concentration camp guard) → Aufseherin – On 27 February 2020 User:Eric moved this article from Female guards in Nazi concentration camps without discussion and left a note. If consensus is that "Aufseherin" is good, we can move the article over its redirect at Aufseherin. If not, we should revert it to its old title of fifteen years. 94.21.253.28 ( talk) 02:35, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
While I understand the arguments for not using Aufseherin, the article title as it is at present is incredibly difficult to remember (at least I'm finding it so) because it's so long and woolly. I think it still needs to be improved in that it should be shorter and a lot more obvious. Something like "Nazi women guards" would be an improvement; not that I'm suggesting that precise wording but IMHO it should be that sort of length and start with the most relevant terminology.
Also to revisit the WP:USEENGLISH thing, we don't do that for e.g. the Waffen SS so why would this be different? Though as SS-Gefolge is now a thing, perhaps the articles should be merged, ideally with SS-Hilferinnen as a new article to try to resolve some of the ongoing confusion (though that may also require a Wehrmachshilferinnen article too as they weren't really counterparts AFAIK; but I'm now getting off the point).
TL;DR: needs shorter title. Should probably start with Nazi or SS. -- Vometia ( talk) 16:52, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The first sentence under "Recruitment" says "Female guards were generally low class to middle class[1] and had no work experience; their professional background varied: one source mentions former matrons, hairdressers, street car ticket takers, opera singers, or retired teachers."
I am not sure how people who had been matrons, hairdressers, retired teachers and so on can be said to have had "no work experience". Unless someone objects, I shall remove the mention of "no work experience" or else change it to something like "some had no work experience, but others had been been matrons, hairdressers...".
Also, it would be interesting to know what the source is ("one source mentions..."). Opera singers seems an odd inclusion, partly because it seems unlikely and partly because the number of opera singers is small anyway, so why are they being talked about specifically in this context? Ondewelle ( talk), 30 September 2010
This has a lot of information, but it should be broken down into paragraphs. Someone with good literary skills should consider rewriting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.192.113 ( talk • contribs) 18:20, 19 February 2004
I am getting increasingly uneasy about this article (and several related ones). It's badly written, and we are all good enough editors to quickly change that, but before we do that we need to be able to confirm the (monstrous) accusations in these articles. Don't get me wrong: it may be all true, and the individual women that are named on this page may all indeed have been female prison guards. But we need sources for that kind of information. Thore 12:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, I have moved quite a few of the paragraphs around, so that some structure in the article may become apparent. I am still not sure what the original contributors want to say with each and every passage, so I haven't refactored individual paragraphs (much). In any case, the current structure is far from perfect, especially it lacks a section containing the first three subsections. Suggestions are welcome.
I also started to edit the huge mess that are the references. Thanks to the original authors, these were provided very quickly once the Unreferenced tag came up, and the article improved a lot. But I simply cannot use the references (in the current Notes section) to find the works in question. What is the reference called (1) and (2)? In any case, the article needs to follow the style given in Wikipedia:Cite sources. I made a brave attempt to follow this guidelines, but abandoned it because I simply don't understand what (1) and (2) actually are pointing to. I am sure the anonymous contributors can clean this up very quickly, and then removed the Unreferenced tag again. Thore 13:22, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, this article is in a horrible state. I cleaned up what I could see at a glance, but there's shitloads, if you'll excuse my French, that requires looking after. Seriously, this Brown character is not just apparently, but obviously so biased quoting him as a source would be like quoting GW Bush on terrorism as a NPOV. I removed the countless references to his more or less shady book - a Google on his full name gets less hits than my name, for crying out loud - from the article text. I removed a ton of unverifiable citations. I removed quite a bit of outright tragic English grammar and spelling. I removed certain quotes that were presented as facts, but come on "The vicious and evil -person-...". I removed irrelevant information. I removed some completely unnessecary info, like curent residence etc. I removed quite a lot, really, and I'd very much like someone else to help me, because this is not a small article, but DAMN, it needs a cleanup! And this Brown book which is quoted everywhere in the text, I have absolutely no faith in it being a factual book researched in any way. Someone that's not Dan Brown should look into it. -- TVPR 01:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
According to Guido Knopp's book 'The SS', there were more than "3000 women accepted into the SS between 1942 and 1945, and as required by their Reichsfuhrer, trained to be a 'genuinely dedicated female corps of the SS'". This implies that women were fully accepted into the SS and were indeed "true" members, contrary to the article. Can anyone shed some light on to which claim is true? ~~117th~~
Can you make new pages? Thank you.
transl. by Google From, Deutsche Wikipedia Günther Tamaschke (* 26. Februar 1896 in Berlin; † 14. Oktober 1959) SS-Standartenführer (1935) Camp director of KZ Lichtenburg and of KZ Ravensbrück. Tamaschke, who had his last residence in Uhingen after the war, died in 1959.
74.239.209.92 ( talk) 07:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Ravensbrueck, relevant info.
There between 500 and 1,000 women camp personnel were held while the US Army investigated their crimes and camp service. The majority of them were released because male SS were the top priority.
SS-gefolge (females SS)
Anna Fest , acq and released. born 1920
Lieschen (Liesl), Anna Luise Rech was born in Oranienburg, Germany on January 10, 1923. In 1940 she married and received the name Lieschen Laskowski. In 1944 Lieschen was conscripted and sent to the Flossenburg concentration camp to be trained as a camp guard. Eventually the overseer served in various camps; Mittweida, Oranienburg Auer III, Ravensbruck, Gelsenkirchen, Buchenwald, and last in the Buchenwald subcamp at Benefeld, Germany. In April 1945 she fled the camp and was never apprehended. Lieschen has never been tried by any Allied Armies for war crimes.
Christine Holthöwer. acq due to 'lack of evidence.' aufseherrin. Chief warden of Siemens.
Anna Friederike Mathilde Klein -Plaubel, Oberaufseherrin, Acquittal due to lack of evidence
The position of Oberaufseherin was the highest function in a women concentration camp, which a woman could reach as a guard in the SS retinue.
Hedwig Ullrich, belzec
Correct spelling is : Maria Mandl, not Mandel.
74.239.209.92 ( talk) 05:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
I assume that this article is well-researched but, frankly, I am shocked that more of these female concentration camp guards faced no punishment for their cruelty. I know it was during a war but when you read survivors' accounts, it sounds like many guards actually unnecessarily brutally. When I read over the accounts of those few who were executed, it seems pretty random, which ones were prosecuted and which ones were not even tried. How were they reintegrated into German society after all of thousands of deaths they were involved in? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 02:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
The use of "today" in the headings is really poor form. I think the attempt is to distinguish near-term post-war trials from later ones. A better solution should be found. The Dissident Aggressor 13:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
In its current version, there is a lot of confusion on the issue of SS-Gefolge vs. SS-Helferinnenkorps. For comparison, see German articles de:SS-Gefolge vs. de:SS-Helferinnenkorps. Most (if not all) female guards in concentration camps were members of the SS-Gefolge and therefor not members of the SS. Only SS-Helferinnen were full SS members, however, I don't know of a single SS-Helferin who was a guard (but that doesn't mean there wasn't one I'm not aware of). The problem of the article is, that it talks about guards, but cites literature on Helferinnen (compare notes #4 & #5). Note #6 is offline and also doesn't look as if it ever was a reliable source in the first place. The claim that there were female members of Totenkopf units seems to be originated in note #6 and is absolutely absurd – no women were ever member of a Totenkopf unit! Again, SS-Helferin was the closest a woman could get to being a member of the Waffen-SS. I doubt even the claim of female members of the Allgemeine SS … I only have some insight of German literature, so please provide English language research for this article. Thanks a lot! :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.53.92 ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
In order to avoid the distasteful possibility of trivialising the suffering of millions, by including references to film treatments of the article subject, even including soft porn references, might I suggest creating a separate page for pop culture references? Although, it promises to have an unweildy title, along the lines of Female guards in Nazi concentration camps in popular culture
Nuttyskin ( talk) 02:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Hello all- I have moved this article to what I think is a title more in line with current Wikipedia practice. For reference, I am pasting a discussion from 2005 below. It was deleted instead of archived. ( diff url of 2005 discussion).
==About the title==
- actually Aufseherin is only the german word for female attendant, warden or overseer ... it is not a word created by the Nazi .. it existed and still exists and is on use today ... Sicherlich 22:03, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Yup. I wonder if this is a neologism. It is possible that this is a very recently introduced word in English (that hasn't found its way into any of my English dictionaries yet), but as the article starts now, it is highly misleading. Google finds 10000 hits for Aufseherin (in all kinds of meaning, not related to concentration camps), but when I restrict to English pages, I get 231. Most of these are about concentration camps, but some aren't. (One is about the play Elektra.) Thore 15:26, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I've tried to read a bit more... we need some confirmation that 'Aufseherin' is the correct (and only) English term for this job. That's easy enough to do if correct -- just cite some books. If on the other hand it is just a neologism born of ignorance of German, then it has to go and replaced by Female Overseer or something similar. (This would be comparable to having an entry named "Soldat" that refers specifially to German soldiers in a specific war.) I will leave this message here for a while; in the absence of sources for this term I will then list it article on Votes for Deletion (with the reason neologism), with the intention of having the article renamed or moved to a page about the structure of concentration camps. Thore 15:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just be bold and move the article. I think that it's a generic term (not a proper noun) that translates to Overseer, based om my (admittedly not super) knowledge of german. -- Improv 17:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Imrov, I agree on moving or renaming the page, but where to? What is the English term? By the way, your German is spot on. I've tried to check some German sources, and they use the term Aufseherin, but also Wächterin (which just means guard). It's not our knowledge of German that is the problem. It's our knowledge of English. As I said, this might just be the proper English term, and thus have a very narrow meaning. Just like Anschluss means one and only one thing in English, but lots of things in German (telephone connection, for example). I am not the one to make that call, having English only as my third language, and having very little knowledge about Nazi terminology in English history books. Thore 17:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have renamed the page as per Improv's suggestions, and tried to write an introductory sentence. This page still needs lots of attention. (And I ought to update the pages that link to the old page...) Thore 09:54, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps
- Female Prison Camp Guards in Nazi Germany (perhaps more accurate, as they were presumably used in puppet states outside of Germany proper)
- Women Prison Guards in the Third Reich
- -- Improv 19:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think everyone will agree that Aufseherin is a much more likely search term than Female guards in Nazi concentration camps. Eric talk 16:58, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There's consensus to not move the title. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 14:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Aufseherin (Nazi concentration camp guard) → Aufseherin – On 27 February 2020 User:Eric moved this article from Female guards in Nazi concentration camps without discussion and left a note. If consensus is that "Aufseherin" is good, we can move the article over its redirect at Aufseherin. If not, we should revert it to its old title of fifteen years. 94.21.253.28 ( talk) 02:35, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
While I understand the arguments for not using Aufseherin, the article title as it is at present is incredibly difficult to remember (at least I'm finding it so) because it's so long and woolly. I think it still needs to be improved in that it should be shorter and a lot more obvious. Something like "Nazi women guards" would be an improvement; not that I'm suggesting that precise wording but IMHO it should be that sort of length and start with the most relevant terminology.
Also to revisit the WP:USEENGLISH thing, we don't do that for e.g. the Waffen SS so why would this be different? Though as SS-Gefolge is now a thing, perhaps the articles should be merged, ideally with SS-Hilferinnen as a new article to try to resolve some of the ongoing confusion (though that may also require a Wehrmachshilferinnen article too as they weren't really counterparts AFAIK; but I'm now getting off the point).
TL;DR: needs shorter title. Should probably start with Nazi or SS. -- Vometia ( talk) 16:52, 21 February 2023 (UTC)