![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I reverted Phyesalis' recent edit as a violation of WP:NOR. The unsourced, unattributed assertion that "while FGC is not a religious practice, it is practiced within particular religious sub-cultures" specifically violates this policy, as does the corresponding rearrangement of material to match this POV. There are examples of inexplicably changing language away from "circumcision." There is a WP:NOR violation in the phrase "Another hadith often quoted is..." -- who says it's often quoted? We don't know. More examples: the long series of sentences after the introduction of Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa -- where only the first sentence is properly attributed as his belief; beginning sentences like "Using the hadith is specious because ..." clearly are presenting an argument rather than attributing an opinion, called for by WP:V. Generally, the edit is rearranging sourced material and inserting unsourced material in order to form an argument; this practice is specificallyprohibited by WP:NOR; see especially WP:SYN. I suggest that in the future such edits be applied in much smaller forms, so that their validity and adherence to policy can be more specifically and individually addressed. Blackworm ( talk) 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to avoid an edit war, I have chosen not to use my remaining two reverts to undo Blackworm's continued rv on "Cultural and religious aspects". Instead, I have posted a comment on his talk page and decided to take the last collection of accusations and respond to them in detail. I know this is long but I don't know else how to deal with the behavior. This section is a prelude to an RfC:User. I have tried to remain cool, I have tried to discuss this, I have provided mutliple references from peer-review journals, I have noted several of Blackworm's points and changed material accordingly, I have stepped back and a third party suggested that we both step back and all of this has proved to be unsuccessful. Blackworm continues to address his comments and accusations at me, not at the article, nor other users who have improved upon my contributions and tacitly deemed them appropriate. He has not provided a single piece of documentation for his varying claims of OR, POV, SYN and V. Blackworm contends that my contributions to "Cultural Aspects" are OR. He finds my intro statement "while FGC is not a religious practice, it is practiced within particular religious sub-cultures" to be particulary contentious. I argue that this is merely summation of cited sources provided in the body of the section. To support this argument:
Blackworm contends that I introduced "Another hadith often quoted" and objected to it. However, reviewing the diffs show:
Another hadith often quoted is `Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"If the two organs to be removed by circumcision are met, then performing Ghusl (ritual bath) is obligatory."(This Hadith is in the well-known books of collections of Prophetic Hadiths , written by Malik, Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and others) Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Secretary General of the World Union of the Muslim Ulemas states "such an argument can be refuted by the fact that in Arabic language, two things or persons may be given one quality or name that belongs only to one of them for an effective cause."
While some scholars, such as Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq, author of Fiqh As-Sunnah argue that "[h]adiths stating the legality of female circumcision are da`if (weak); none of them is sahih (authentic)", [7] other scholars argue that authenticity alone does not confer legitimacy. One of the sayings used to support FGC practices is the`hadith (349) in Sahih Muslim: Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory." Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Secretary General of the World Union of the Muslim Ulemas states that while the hadith is authentic, it is not evidence of legitmacy. In idiomatic usage, the Arabic for "the two circumcision organs" is a single word, orkhitaanaan, where the plural of one word is used to denote not two of the same form, but two different forms characterized as a singular of the more prominent form. While the female form is used to denote both male and female genitalia, it is identified with the prominent aspect of the two forms, which in this case is the male circumcised organ. The connotation of circumcision is not transitive. Using the hadith is specious because "such an argument can be refuted by the fact that in Arabic language, two things or persons may be given one quality or name that belongs only to one of them for an effective cause." [1]
Another hadith often quoted is `Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"If the two organs to be removed by circumcision are met, then performing Ghusl (ritual bath) is obligatory."...
Blackworm argues that my edit regarding the al-Awwa paragraph under "Islam" was OR. When I responded and explained the usage and subsequent modification of text based on his argument, Blackworm characterized my response as an "irrelevancy". Can I get a WTF?
I went back to the ref'd source and all the material I found was in there. Now, I think my edit makes the paragraph much more comprehensible. Blackworm objected to the unattributed use of "specious" but if you look in the ref, that's nothing controversial. But in attempt to find some peace-bringing compromise, I changed it to "Dr. al-Awwa continues arguing that the hadith is specious because..." but nothing will satisfy him. He reverted it again without discussion. Seriously can I get someone else's input on this? Phyesalis ( talk) 21:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Phyesalis asked me to review the continuing exchange here, as a neutral third party, and I can see why they were getting frustrated. Blackworm, in my opinion you're not coming from a firmly steadfast position. You might've been at first, but as the exchange has continued it looks like you've been subtly shifting your weight to remain at odds with what's being said. As though you're not interested in reaching a compromise, just being "against" what Phyesalis is saying.
That's my opinion as a neutral bystander.
Good luck to both of you on finding an amiable solution.
pixiequix
00:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It's nothing personal.
I was just offering an outside opinion.
pixiequix 19:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Phyesalis, it seems our recent breakthrough in communication was short-lived. Your reinstatement of your edits and addition of more material is disheartening. I was under the impression, apparently false, that in return for a detailed repair of the material you wished to insert, I would not merely revert edits that violate Wikipedia policy. This apparent compromise was broken. It will be more difficult to reach an agreeable conclusion under these conditions. Blackworm 02:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
There needs to be compromise here. Blackworm is simply suggesting that FGC is interpreted as Islamic practice in some societies. I made some revisions. Look at them. Brandoid ( talk) 00:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I moved the reference to Faraz Rabbani from the section on Shia opinions to the Sunni section. He is Sunni, as is stated in his Wikipedia bio. C3young ( talk) 23:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I changed the titles to these two sections to something more general. I also added a clarification on one of the rulings mentioned under the Sunni view. If anyone has a problem with the ordering of the text, please go ahead and change it. I hope that the additional content remains as it paints a clearer picture of the Sunni view. C3young ( talk) 17:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Please see WP:CAT#Some general guidelines, number 7. Thank you. Blackworm ( talk) 07:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous removed "maintenance of cleanliness" from the list of social justifications. Now, I acknowledge that the wording on that is not so hot. However, I'm wondering if we could get a reason for the removal? Phyesalis ( talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The article states, with multiple sources that FGC is not a religious practice. One school does not make for a majority representation. If editors believe that the section should be changed, it would be greatly appreciated if they could post suggestions here. Phyesalis ( talk) 21:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
therefore, it would seem that while one school requires it, it is a matter of culture and not religion. Even so, if we had documentation to support the position that it was religious, what would you prefer it say? If you would suggest some wording, perhaps we could stop arguing and find some common ground. Phyesalis ( talk) 19:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
In the Islam section: What is the difference between a hadith which is authentic, and one which is legitimate? The word "legitimate" doesn't seem to appear on the hadith page. And what does "transitive" mean in this context? "He further states that the connotation of circumcision is not transitive." -- Coppertwig ( talk) 03:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The sources cited in the section "Scholarly and religious debate" (Riyadh University, Al-Azhar University, Sahih Muslim collection of ahadith,World Union of the Muslim Ulemas) are all Sunni. Should this section be combined with the section on Sunni views? C3young ( talk) 23:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added the following prominent scholars, please do not remove:
Abu Dawood, who relates the narration in his collection, states the hadith is poor in authenticity. [2] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani describes this hadith as poor in authenticity, and quotes Imam Ahmad Bayhaqi’s point of view that it is "poor, with a broken chain of transmission" [3] Zein al-Din al-Iraqi points out in his commentary on Al-Ghazali’s Ihya ulum al-din (I:148) that the mentioned hadith has a weak chain of transmission." [1] Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr comments: "Those who consider (female) circumcision a sunna, use as evidence this hadith of Abu al-Malih, which is based solely on the evidence of Hajjaj ibn Artaa, who cannot be admitted as an authority when he is the sole transmitter. The consensus of Muslim scholars shows that circumcision is for men". [4]( Studentoftruth ( talk) 18:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC))
Phyesalis, your edit summary said: "Cultural aspects - returning footnote to original, quote does not state "female circumcision", please refrain from editing footnotes if you haven't read source material, assume good faith"
Note the brackets around [FGC], implying that the original phrased was replaced. I assume the quote in the source said "female circumcision," since the latter phrase is in the title of the article. There is no reason to change the quote to say "FGC," if indeed it said "female circumcision." You have asserted that the quote does not say "female circumcision" -- are you asserting that the original source does not say "female circumcision?" If so, what does it say?
Also, your directive to "assume good faith" is completely misplaced, and yet another violation of Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. See also " Assume the assumption of good faith." Blackworm ( talk) 22:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Good work, Blackworm! -- Coppertwig ( talk) 11:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
this edit deleted some material without explanation and deleted a ref tag, apparently leaving the reference display messed up ever since then. I've restored the deleted material and hope to fix the ref tags in a few minutes. I don't have much of an opinion at this point in time whether the restored material (other than the ref tag) stays in or not. Anyone may feel free to ask me to self-revert it out again if you provide some explanation why to remove it. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The situation is more complex than I thought. I've deleted this: <ref name="WHO_FGM-fact" /> because it has no content and doesn't display properly (i.e. there is no corresponding other ref tag containing the actual data). Maybe someone can find the corresponding data somewhere in the page history or someplace. The edit I mentioned above did mess up the ref tags, but they were immediately fixed, and then soon afterwards this edit deleted the data for <ref name="Skaine_FGM"/> , which then displayed as an error. Here's the data; someone may want to restore this to the article: <ref name="Skaine_FGM"> Female Genital Mutilation: Legal, Cultural and Medical Issues, by Rosemary Skaine; McFarland 2005, ISBN 0-7864-2163-3. </ref> which displays as [5]
The situation is much more complex but at least now the refs are displaying with no red error message.
Note: When editing this page, please be careful with the ref tags. If you remove a citation, you should check that no other footnote requires that data to display properly. (Look at the list of references in your revised version and see if any look blank. Look at the previous version before your edit and see if they already looked blank before. Please don't do edits that make some of the data in the footnotes disappear like that. I can help you figure out how to straighten out the ref tags if you ask me on my talk page. See also Help:Footnotes. If you remove citation information, it would be nice to place that information on this talk page in case anyone wants to get any other quotes out of the same source. Ref tags are tricky; putting <ref> and forgetting to close it with </ref> can mess up the display of all of the rest of the page, or a large part of it. If you insert and delete stuff you need to make sure the tags are working properly. I'm still planning to try to fix some of the blank footnotes. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I was wrong: I thought there were a few blank footnotes in the current version. They only looked blank at first glance. Actually they contain url's. They still need to be reformatted -- maybe I'll do that. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Currently it says "FGC is not mentioned in any Jewish religious text. [1] [2]" with the two footnotes being these two url's: [8] [9] The first one, in my opinion, does not support the statement and could possibly be seen as contradicting it. The second one supports the statement, though it's a statement by one individual (sounds like one who is an authority on the matter though). What to do? Just delete the first footnote? The first URL says "Circumcision was widespread in many ancient cultures. Some of these also practiced female circumcision, which was never allowed in Judaism." The second one says "The fact remains that African followers of the major world religions practice these customs. Male circumcision is an absolute requirement of Islam and Judaism, whereas female circumcision is not even mentioned in any religious text. However, scholars of African cultures would testify that on our continent traditional and tribal rituals commonly supersede religion." -- Coppertwig ( talk) 19:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC) No, wait. He seems to be an authority on female circumcision, not necessarily on Jewish texts. Maybe change the wording to "The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion states that female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism. Toubia (1995) states that female circumcision is not even mentioned in any religious text." I think I'll make that change. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 19:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I greatly appreciate supporting quotes in cites, especially cites to references not widely accessible online. It makes it much easier to find the relevant material, and also holds the material up for scrutiny by other editors. I believe the following is a bad example of a proposed supporting quote:
Found in a cite: quote="...clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision."
I don't understand what purpose is served by beginning such a quote, "...clitoridectomy, for example." What information has this given us? The following sentence only uses the pronoun "it" -- but what is "it?" Is "it" clitoridectomy? Clearly the way the source is quoted implies this, but we can't be sure, because the previous sentence is truncated. It would be extremely helpful if it could be restored.
Unfortunately, this situation makes it difficult to support the article text's inclusion. The "harm" of the third sentence's conclusion is the "harm" of the previous sentence, and that "harm" is applied to the "it" -- the "it" which we don't know what "it" is. The WP article uses this quote and this source to say: Benatar et al. state that practices such as clitoridectomy and excision are not analogous to male circumcision because of the difference in relative harm. I see two problematic issues here:
If no one suggests an edit, I'll try to do my best on it and see what happens. Blackworm ( talk) 11:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
There is value in stepping back from one's cultural assumptions. When one views male circumcision from another cultural perspective, one can only wonder what possessed ancient people to first think of removing the foreskin. Considered independently, it is about as strange as deciding to remove a part of the earlobe from all children. [End Page 43]
This is just the view many people have of clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision.
I support this edit which inserts "Cook states that..." and "...and that "this procedure in whatever form it is practised is not at all analogous to male circumcision." because it uses prose attribution to present the information in a NPOV way, it accurately reflects what the source says, it helps lengthen a paragraph that needed to be lengthened, and it flows smoothly into the following sentence. I'm just going to change "and" to "but" because it will flow more smoothly; the "but" is justified, IMO, by the word "however" in the source, which means essentially the same thing IMO. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 03:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The article says a lot about what africans and muslims do, but what about the kind of female genital mutilation that people did in countries like the US until the 50's to cure masturbation by removing the clitoris or burning it with acid etc? There's only a very brief mention of this under the christianity section. This should be addressed as well because the "western civilization" DOES have a history of FGM. 201.23.32.2 ( talk) 16:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
In Britain, clitoridectomy seems to have completely disappeared after the Baker Brown scandal. Only very occasionally did someone in authority still dare to say in public that the total ban of the practice was perhaps going too far. In the United States, by contrast, Baker Brown had numerous followers. According to the historian G. J. Barker-Benfield, clitoridectomies were performed from the 1860s until 1904, and circumcision of the clitoris (that is, removal of the foreskin) was advocated as a cure for mental illness.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) --
Coppertwig (
talk)
17:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)Although several European authorities had recommended clitoridectomy to treat nymphomania, they had few English followers. One was Samuel Atwell, who wrote in 1844 that "an enlarged clitoris" was sometimes marked "by exquisite sensibility of its mucous membrane," which often "gives rise to sexual passion and subdues every feeling of modesty." The result was headaches, attacks of hysteria, and loss of mental discipline, and Atwell recommended extirpation of the organ in these instances. English doctors tended to be skeptical, but one cited a comment in Thomas' Practice of Physic that "as the clitoris is the seat of pleasure ... nymphomania might possibly be cured by extirpating the organ."
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) I've left out superscripts for footnotes that are in the originals. --
Coppertwig (
talk)
17:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)I found an English-language source about the same subject as the link in the to-do box above to a French-language article:
"Woman jailed for 48 circumcisions". BBC News. BBC Online Network. 1999-02-17. Retrieved 2007-12-27. A Malian woman has been jailed for eight years for circumcising 48 girls following a Paris trial which pitted French law against African tradition.
"The court also convicted more than two dozen parents who took their girls to Hawa Greou for genital mutilation. Most received suspended prison terms....
"Female circumcision became a crime in France in 1984, but it was not until 1991 that the first conviction was handed down.{{
cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) --
Coppertwig (
talk)
19:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, [ this edit] serves to reinforce the fact that the arguments presented (exclusively by Phyesalis, if I'm not mistaken) in favour of Phyesalis' unilateral recent shifting the focus of this article away from discussion of FGC's religious aspects where they exist, to a contradictory mix of:
Please help me, I have no clue how or why something being primarily a cultural practice would be evidence of it transcending religion, especially if there is evidence of people practicing it today as part of their religion. This is a direct assault on
WP:NPOV. The second sentence, I've already dissected as pure nonsense when it was expressed slightly differently, in my edit of this Talk page, 16:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC). How do you walk up to a person practicing FGC as part of their religion and tell them that "no, here at Wikipedia, we've precluded an unequivocal link between religion and FGC." It is documented that people practice this as part of their religion. Claiming without attribution in prose that they really don't is insulting to me, as it reeks of
ethnocentrism, but more importantly, it wholeheartedly violates
POV as it is
verifiable that it is falsehood in the case of certain religions. It's like saying, "no one thinks FGC is a duty of their religion," when that statement is clearly contradicted by
reliable sources. It's not Wikipedian to make that claim, especially without attribution to a notable party. Why no one has the courage to come forward in agreement with me on this is extremely discouraging.
Phyesalis, your coming in here and writing all this nonsensical stuff (I'm really sorry, but I assume you are an adult and can handle criticism of your writing, and frankly, attempts to walk on eggshells and not hurt your feelings seem to have totally failed), reverting attempts to delete it that are based on sound interpretation of policy by an apparently more experienced editor, then turning around and telling that editor, basically, to "fix it yourself if you don't like it," is unacceptable behaviour. Please, please come to a meeting of minds with me on this, at least.
This article needs heavy trimming to bring certain sections into consistency. To both recent editors, squabbling over details of which term comes first, you are both missing the point. Comment on the huge dispute over the large amounts of questionable material added recently, please. I'm almost sure Phyesalis agrees with me that your input would be appreciated by all. Be bold, rather than a mute spectator.
I switched the top billing of the terms again to draw attention to this much more important point. If some editors take that action as a WP:DISRUPTION or a WP:POINT VIOLATION or WP:INCIVIL or WP:WHATEVER, so be it; in my view, it is NOT any of those things. Blackworm ( talk) 05:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The WHO is clearly in favor of outlawing and stamping out the practice of FGC. Therefore isn't using the WHO's definition (which contains heavily connotated words like describing FGC as any "injury") a step away from NPOV? If we are going to quote a definition of FGC, we ought to use a source that comes does not push an anti-FGC agenda so heavily. This is a volatile enough topic. Thoughts? Brandoid ( talk) 23:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the factual error in describing Type II circumcision. I also removed the following sentence which seems unsupported by its cited source: Due to the sewing together of the leftover labia minora epidermis, which contains sweat glands, a buildup of sweat and urine in the closed off space beneath this closure can lead to local or urinary infection, septicemia, hemorrhaging and cyst formation. [4] The reference is to a study of 300 Somali women, and there seems to be no indication of the cause of the complications, nor any indication that the complications mentioned all occur from Type II circumcision. Perhaps this could be rephrased and added to the "medical consequences" section.
I will now attempt to tackle the factual errors in the "Type III" section. Blackworm ( talk) 06:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The following was recently added to the section under 'female circumcision':
I have removed it, because of several problems:
Jakew ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent.) In [ this edit], I change the second sentence in an attempt to address your concerns, Jake. Blackworm ( talk) 00:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are some possible sources that themselves comment on the usage of the term 'female circumcision'.
Jakew ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to step in here and say that I believe Blackworm's edit to be valid according to wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:OR states that "care should be taken not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources". It is mainly a NPOV construct. Blackworm has stayed true to his sources and has not pushed an agenda independent of his sources. If you have issues with the individual sources, question them instead of the entire clause, which seems to be well supported. Brandoid ( talk) 03:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following:
Although labeled Sunna by Islamic advocates of the practice, most Muslim clergy oppose all forms of female genital cutting as it is viewed as a social custom, rather than a religious practice. According to Dr. Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Salieh at the Swiss Institute of Comparative Law:
Islamic juridical logic cannot acknowledge the distinction between female and male circumcision, both being the mutilation of healthy organs which is damaging to the physical integrity of the child, whatever the underlying religious motivations. Furthermore, both practices violate the Koran: "Our Lord, You did not create all this in vain" (3:191), and "[He] perfected everything He created" (32:7).
— [16]
It seems tangential at best, under the definition of WHO Type I FGC. Blackworm ( talk) 20:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Blackworm, I would like to inquiry about the revert that just occured of my recent edit to this article. If "female circumcision" should not be abbreviated in the intro like the other two terms are, why is it thus abbreviated lower in the text? Next, why all the brackets in the intro, if it's possible to make the sentence more appealing by removing them? As for referencing authors, it's standard practice and common courtesy to first-time readers to provide the full name of an author upon first mention and then to make further references using the last name only. Why the exception for this article? Lastly, isn't it true that the term "female circumcision" is not as common today as it was earlier in history? Blackworm, please respond to my concerns when you can. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 00:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Homologeo. I'll answer your questions in order:
I hope this addresses your concerns. Blackworm ( talk) 00:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone else think this article may be biased as it seems to focus on the negatives of female circumcision and does not appear to address any perceived medical benefits of female circumcision? Bagofants ( talk) 16:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
It's surprising that this article discusses the attitudes towards female genital cutting in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, but very little is said about African Traditional Religions. This practice is most prevalent in African traditional communities, and is often attributed to ATR practices, so it would makes sense for there to be a major component to this article that deals with ATR as it relates to FGC. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 21:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
# The surprising and perplexing significant inverse association between reported female circumcision and HIV seropositivity remained highly statistically significant in the final logistic regression model, despite the presence of other significant potential confounders, namely, geographic zone, household wealth index, woman´s age, lifetime sex partners, and current/past union status.
As no biological mechanism seems plausible, we conclude that it is due to irreducible confounding.
(Outdenting.) I'm not sure that I agree that the reliability of sources is determined by "what we do with them," except to the extent WP:OR and WP:V must be followed, also by attributing challenged views. I'm guessing that's what you meant. Perhaps it would help if you suggested an edit. How about, as a start: Stallings et al. concluded that a lowered risk of HIV infection among circumcised women was not attributable to confounding with any other risk factors they studied. (I hope you will not argue that "another" in the original source, in this context, applies to a particular factor they are withholding from us?) If you reject this edit, please suggest one. Blackworm ( talk) 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(Outdenting.) You're right about both names; I should have read more carefully. Now the only question remaining is why you'd prefer to source a PowerPoint document that requires special software to read properly (and opens editors to viruses), instead of a simple, easily accessible, safe HTML abstract of the presentation. You seem to insist on presenting the authors' conclusions regarding plausible biological mechanisms and irreducible confounding, conclusions they saw fit to omit from their abstract. I don't have any remaining objection to that -- we'll just need to cite your separate PPT source from the abstract I will cite for the other conclusions. And of course, should any sources come to light examining possible biological female genital pathways for HIV, or stating that such pathways are plausible, we can cite those and discuss their views.
You say, It is inaccurate to state that Stallings' work is based upon the THIS report. The Stallings' PPT source says, This analysis and its findings are derived from the 2003-04 Tanzania HIV/AIDS Indicator Survey (the THIS) [...]. I'll leave the reader to decide if your comments is relevant. The THIS report is one thing, Stallings' examination of THIS data is another thing. The THIS results were "unexpected" and called for more study, and Stallings' "sought to explain an unanticipated significant crude association of lower HIV risk among circumcised women" in the THIS survey "by examining other factors which might confound this crude association." They concluded that "A lowered risk of HIV infection among circumcised women was not attributable to confounding with another risk factor in these data," and characterized this as a "conundrum." [16]
If I were to nitpick, I might argue that their data is not strictly a "superset" of the THIS data. Stallings' conclusions in the PowerPoint about "plausible biological mechanisms," for example, is clearly not derived from THIS data (nor is it remotely clear what that statement is derived from). Their stuff about "logistic regression models" also seems to imply a specific interpretation of the data (do other "models" exist which might cause one to arrive at different conclusions about the same raw data?). Regardless, there is no need to argue about that when citing all three sources is perfectly appropriate. If you feel a need to mention the other three studies, we should indeed begin by summarizing them. Blackworm ( talk) 23:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Please move the article to Female Genital Mutilation, this name is correct and encyclopedic, as you see in WHO and UN's articles. Thanks -- Taranet ( talk) 17:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I guess it's Round 2 (or 3 or 4) for the article title... Well, once again, female genital cutting is the most NPOV term available that is also used by mainstream organizations around the world. To simply state that FGC is mutilation does not make the case true, because there is a number of procedures that fit into the category of FGC, several of which can hardly be deemed mutilation. Not sure what people have against the word cutting, when it's clearly the most neutral term available - one that does not attempt to slant the subject matter in one direction or the other. Let's let facts and information within the article speak for themselves, rather than biasing the text from the get-go. Readers are not stupid, and will make their own conclusions. Besides, the article does not attempt to conceal the other frequently used terms (female genital mutilation and female circumcision), and clearly explains which groups use what terminology and why. In my opinion, the article should stay where it is, for there's no need for extra controversy and mudding of water. For the moment, this seems to be a quality text that a number of editors put a great deal of time and energy into creating. If there's something within the content that is an issue for anyone, editors are free to edit and to discuss changes on the Talk Page. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 02:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I googled FGM, and was shocked when this article came up as a response. The Wiki community seriously considers "female genital cutting" a neutral terminology? The word "cutting" does not even begin to encompass the practices involved in FGM, all of which are painful and have negative consequences which I won't detail because they're already in the article for you to read yourself. While the term may be used in WHO and other international organization documents, the reasoning for this is overwhelmingly so that advocacy in local communities is not damaged by perceived insensitivity. It is used not because it is accurate or neutral, but as a political strategy to make it easier to advocate for the eradication of the practice itself. However, when we are discussing the practice with anyone other than a particular individual who believes in the practice, there is no reason to continue using the white-washed/euphemistic term. The white-washing only serves to insulate people from the reality of the practice and allow them to brush off its seriousness -- something which seems pretty non-neutral to me. The article as a whole seems to give the minority viewpoint on this issue altogether too much weight. The evidence against FGM is pretty overwhelmning, and the inclusion of "sensitive" terms and arguments which are obviously unfounded is biased in and of itself. It's the same as having an article about slavery titled something like "Compulsory non-paid employment" and saying things like having a whole section (one that is nearly as large as the one detailing the harms of the practice) which says things like "it is argued by advocated of compulsory non-paid employment that black-skinned persons are inferior and deserve to be enslaved. Other arguments include the argument that black-skinned persons are not actually persons." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.69.229 ( talk) 22:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was this edit made? What is and other such procedures? Why are we concerned with "style" over accuracy? Adding the word "such" makes it seem like we are saying the procedures are similar. Is putting herbs in a vagina to make it tighter (one form of FGC) similar to female genital surgery? Blackworm ( talk) 07:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
There are some errors in what is said about sexual consequences.
"In the early 1980s, Hanny Lightfoot-Klein traveled throughout Sudan (where Type III is the prevalent form of FGC, ~90%) asking women who had undergone FGC how often they had experienced orgasm during intercourse.[61] Many of the women had no idea what an orgasm was. Others interviewed (especially if the surgery excised less tissue) not only insisted that they did achieve orgasm, ranging from 90% of the time when they were young to 10% of the time once they had children, but were open to talking about their experiences. The women were able to describe in great detail exactly what an orgasm meant to them."
I don't have Lightfoot-Kleins book right here now, but an article summarizing her study can be reached here: Lightfoot-Klein, Hanny (1989): "The Sexual Experience and Marital Adjustment of Genitally Circumcised and Infibulated Females in The Sudan". The Journal of Sex Research Vol.26. No.3, pp.375-392. http://www.fgmnetwork.org/authors/Lightfoot-klein/sexualexperience.htm
There she wrote: "Contrary to expectations, nearly 90% of all women interviewed said that they experienced orgasm (climax) or had at various periods of their marriage experienced it. Frequency ranged from always to rarely. Some women said that they had intense, prolonged orgasms, and this was verified by their happy and highly animated demeanor as they described it. Other women said that their orgasms were weak or difficult to achieve."
Obviously, there seems to be a misrepresentation of what Lightfoot-Klein acyually said in this FGC Wikipedia article. Further, the sentence "Many of the women had no idea what an orgasm was" probably has an entirely different source. This sentence may originate from Elchalal et al. (1997) who wrote; "Women interviewed in Sudan who had undergone female genital mutilation had no idea of the existence of orgasm" (p.649). THEIR statement, in turn, has as its only reference Dorkenoo & Elworth (1992): "Dr. A.A. Shandall found that some of the women he interviewed in the Sudan had no idea at all of the existence of orgasm" (p.9, my emphasis). Shandall published a short article in 1967. Wow! Rephrased 40 years later in Wikipedia.
Can I ask someone to deal with this? I am not a native speaker of English, so I'm afraid I'll mess up the grammar (and the references). Best wishes from Sweden, Hssajo ( talk) 18:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Blackworm! I have inserted your suggestion and added some references at the top of the section on sexuality. I also have to say that I really liked much of your discussion here on this page, for instance whether the WHO can be seen as a completely neutral actor or not. Above ("WHO definition") I have added a link that may interest you, raising this issue. Best, Hssajo ( talk)
This section is heavily biased. This may be a result of the fact that it builds almost exclusively on a thirty year old article (Pieters 1977). There is so much updated literature on this. For instance, several recent studies show that the clitoris is more often than not intact (or almost intact) beneath the bridge of tissue created by infibulation. (E.g. Nour, Nawal M., Karin B. Michels, and Ann E. Bryant: "Defibulation to treat female genital cutting: Effects on Symptoms and Sexual Function." Obstetrics and Gyneacology 108(1):55-60, 2006; Gordon H, Comerasamy H, Morris NH. "Female genital mutilation: Experience in a West London clinic." J Obstet Gynaecol. May;27(4):416-9, 2007; Catania L, Abdulcadir O, Puppo V, Verde JB, Abdulcadir J, Abdulcadir D: "Pleasure and orgasm in women with Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting (FGM/C)". J Sex Med. Nov;4(6):1666-78, 2007.)
Further, reinfibulation is pictured as commonly required ("Afterwards, the patient may insist that her vulva be closed again"). Reinfibulation is a Sudanese practice, but rare in e.g. Somalia. I think this, among many other things, needs to be clarified. Will anybody be offended if I give it a try?
Hssajo (
talk)
14:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Molly Melching of TOSTAN believes that in Senegal the practice of female genital mutilation could be ended within 2–5 years." Did she really say that, without adding any prerequisites? I tried to find the source given, but could not make the link work. Trying to google it, I only found an almost identical FGC article on Cassiopedia (and now I am really confused; I didn't even know that encyclopedia existed). Can this statement still be there without a reference that can be found? (Forgive a newcomer for being trying.) Hssajo ( talk) 09:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this typology is not the optimal way to describe these practices, but as long as it is there in the article, I think it is a good idea to offer the most correct information. I tried to update the section, but messed up the existing references. Is there anyone out there who would like to insert the new typology?
Discussed more in detail in Eliminating female genital mutilation. An interagency statement (WHO, 2008), which can be downloaded from here: http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/fgm/terminology.htm Hssajo ( talk) 20:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not crazy about having long quotes in the references - for one thing, I've seen them not even quoting anything from the referenced text (I think some editors were using it to indicate which part of the article they were providing a reference for...) Anyway, unless the source isn't available online, I don't think the quotes are terribly valuable. If anything they could be seen as an editor trying to minimize exposure of the source to just the fragments that support a claim. I also think they clutter up the reference list. Thoughts? Ciotog ( talk) 21:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The new WHO documents are overwhelming -- both their definitions of FGC (WHO: "FGM") and the type classifications have been changed as of this year, rendering all previous sources' comments on WHO Types ambiguous. The WHO states that this is to "accommodate concerns and shortcomings," yet immediately I'm confused as to how to proceed with editing the section on WHO-Type I FGM, which they describe as "Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy)." If we are to define a procedure involving only the removal of the female prepuce, leaving the clitoris intact, as "clitoridectomy," this poses a serious question; it would thus seem logical to describe circumcision of males as "penectomy." I don't believe the WHO wishes to suggest this, yet the penis is the homologue of the clitoris, [18] and the prepuce is a common anatomical structure of the female and male [19] -- in males, it is also called the foreskin. Further, medical sources define clitoridectomy differently from the WHO, as "excision of all or part of the clitoris." [20]. How should we approach these apparent contradictions? Blackworm ( talk) 01:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
In medical dictionaries, the word ‘clitoridectomy’ is defined as “excision of the clitoris”, or “removal of the clitoris”. In a medical perspective, there is no reason to include ‘only damage to the prepuce’ in the category ‘clitoridectomy’. The reason that there are no references discussing the new WHO typology yet is that it is so new… Medical researchers simply follow the WHO. I checked some of the recent texts in PubMed, key word ‘clitoridectomy’, and all of them cite the (former) WHO typology. (For instance, Bikoo M. 2007, Monjol et al. 2007, Catania et al. 2007.) Even if they use the term ‘clitoridectomy’, they do not explicitly define it, but refer to the WHO classification.
The updated typology has taken into consideration recent research discussion on the flaws of the former typology (for instance the fact that so many women who are circumcised according to type III have their clitoris intact, see above). Anyway, the WHO has revised the typology and as a matter of fact there IS a discrepancy between the new typology and a) what is said about clitoridectomies in medical dictionaries; and b) what is said by medical researchers in their articles (since they cite the former typology). Probably there will soon be medical sources that cite the new typology; in whatever time it takes for a medical article to go through the process of being in press. But until then – there IS a gap. Is it really WP:OR to state that? Hssajo ( talk) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone navigating here for information on the subject has to wade through multiple paragraphs about politics and semantics. Even the thesis is unclear. The first section is about terminology! 71.131.176.75 ( talk) 08:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"...clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision. (p44)
{{
cite journal}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |journal=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I reverted Phyesalis' recent edit as a violation of WP:NOR. The unsourced, unattributed assertion that "while FGC is not a religious practice, it is practiced within particular religious sub-cultures" specifically violates this policy, as does the corresponding rearrangement of material to match this POV. There are examples of inexplicably changing language away from "circumcision." There is a WP:NOR violation in the phrase "Another hadith often quoted is..." -- who says it's often quoted? We don't know. More examples: the long series of sentences after the introduction of Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa -- where only the first sentence is properly attributed as his belief; beginning sentences like "Using the hadith is specious because ..." clearly are presenting an argument rather than attributing an opinion, called for by WP:V. Generally, the edit is rearranging sourced material and inserting unsourced material in order to form an argument; this practice is specificallyprohibited by WP:NOR; see especially WP:SYN. I suggest that in the future such edits be applied in much smaller forms, so that their validity and adherence to policy can be more specifically and individually addressed. Blackworm ( talk) 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to avoid an edit war, I have chosen not to use my remaining two reverts to undo Blackworm's continued rv on "Cultural and religious aspects". Instead, I have posted a comment on his talk page and decided to take the last collection of accusations and respond to them in detail. I know this is long but I don't know else how to deal with the behavior. This section is a prelude to an RfC:User. I have tried to remain cool, I have tried to discuss this, I have provided mutliple references from peer-review journals, I have noted several of Blackworm's points and changed material accordingly, I have stepped back and a third party suggested that we both step back and all of this has proved to be unsuccessful. Blackworm continues to address his comments and accusations at me, not at the article, nor other users who have improved upon my contributions and tacitly deemed them appropriate. He has not provided a single piece of documentation for his varying claims of OR, POV, SYN and V. Blackworm contends that my contributions to "Cultural Aspects" are OR. He finds my intro statement "while FGC is not a religious practice, it is practiced within particular religious sub-cultures" to be particulary contentious. I argue that this is merely summation of cited sources provided in the body of the section. To support this argument:
Blackworm contends that I introduced "Another hadith often quoted" and objected to it. However, reviewing the diffs show:
Another hadith often quoted is `Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"If the two organs to be removed by circumcision are met, then performing Ghusl (ritual bath) is obligatory."(This Hadith is in the well-known books of collections of Prophetic Hadiths , written by Malik, Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and others) Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Secretary General of the World Union of the Muslim Ulemas states "such an argument can be refuted by the fact that in Arabic language, two things or persons may be given one quality or name that belongs only to one of them for an effective cause."
While some scholars, such as Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq, author of Fiqh As-Sunnah argue that "[h]adiths stating the legality of female circumcision are da`if (weak); none of them is sahih (authentic)", [7] other scholars argue that authenticity alone does not confer legitimacy. One of the sayings used to support FGC practices is the`hadith (349) in Sahih Muslim: Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory." Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Secretary General of the World Union of the Muslim Ulemas states that while the hadith is authentic, it is not evidence of legitmacy. In idiomatic usage, the Arabic for "the two circumcision organs" is a single word, orkhitaanaan, where the plural of one word is used to denote not two of the same form, but two different forms characterized as a singular of the more prominent form. While the female form is used to denote both male and female genitalia, it is identified with the prominent aspect of the two forms, which in this case is the male circumcised organ. The connotation of circumcision is not transitive. Using the hadith is specious because "such an argument can be refuted by the fact that in Arabic language, two things or persons may be given one quality or name that belongs only to one of them for an effective cause." [1]
Another hadith often quoted is `Aishah narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet said:"If the two organs to be removed by circumcision are met, then performing Ghusl (ritual bath) is obligatory."...
Blackworm argues that my edit regarding the al-Awwa paragraph under "Islam" was OR. When I responded and explained the usage and subsequent modification of text based on his argument, Blackworm characterized my response as an "irrelevancy". Can I get a WTF?
I went back to the ref'd source and all the material I found was in there. Now, I think my edit makes the paragraph much more comprehensible. Blackworm objected to the unattributed use of "specious" but if you look in the ref, that's nothing controversial. But in attempt to find some peace-bringing compromise, I changed it to "Dr. al-Awwa continues arguing that the hadith is specious because..." but nothing will satisfy him. He reverted it again without discussion. Seriously can I get someone else's input on this? Phyesalis ( talk) 21:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Phyesalis asked me to review the continuing exchange here, as a neutral third party, and I can see why they were getting frustrated. Blackworm, in my opinion you're not coming from a firmly steadfast position. You might've been at first, but as the exchange has continued it looks like you've been subtly shifting your weight to remain at odds with what's being said. As though you're not interested in reaching a compromise, just being "against" what Phyesalis is saying.
That's my opinion as a neutral bystander.
Good luck to both of you on finding an amiable solution.
pixiequix
00:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It's nothing personal.
I was just offering an outside opinion.
pixiequix 19:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Phyesalis, it seems our recent breakthrough in communication was short-lived. Your reinstatement of your edits and addition of more material is disheartening. I was under the impression, apparently false, that in return for a detailed repair of the material you wished to insert, I would not merely revert edits that violate Wikipedia policy. This apparent compromise was broken. It will be more difficult to reach an agreeable conclusion under these conditions. Blackworm 02:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
There needs to be compromise here. Blackworm is simply suggesting that FGC is interpreted as Islamic practice in some societies. I made some revisions. Look at them. Brandoid ( talk) 00:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I moved the reference to Faraz Rabbani from the section on Shia opinions to the Sunni section. He is Sunni, as is stated in his Wikipedia bio. C3young ( talk) 23:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I changed the titles to these two sections to something more general. I also added a clarification on one of the rulings mentioned under the Sunni view. If anyone has a problem with the ordering of the text, please go ahead and change it. I hope that the additional content remains as it paints a clearer picture of the Sunni view. C3young ( talk) 17:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Please see WP:CAT#Some general guidelines, number 7. Thank you. Blackworm ( talk) 07:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous removed "maintenance of cleanliness" from the list of social justifications. Now, I acknowledge that the wording on that is not so hot. However, I'm wondering if we could get a reason for the removal? Phyesalis ( talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The article states, with multiple sources that FGC is not a religious practice. One school does not make for a majority representation. If editors believe that the section should be changed, it would be greatly appreciated if they could post suggestions here. Phyesalis ( talk) 21:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
therefore, it would seem that while one school requires it, it is a matter of culture and not religion. Even so, if we had documentation to support the position that it was religious, what would you prefer it say? If you would suggest some wording, perhaps we could stop arguing and find some common ground. Phyesalis ( talk) 19:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
In the Islam section: What is the difference between a hadith which is authentic, and one which is legitimate? The word "legitimate" doesn't seem to appear on the hadith page. And what does "transitive" mean in this context? "He further states that the connotation of circumcision is not transitive." -- Coppertwig ( talk) 03:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The sources cited in the section "Scholarly and religious debate" (Riyadh University, Al-Azhar University, Sahih Muslim collection of ahadith,World Union of the Muslim Ulemas) are all Sunni. Should this section be combined with the section on Sunni views? C3young ( talk) 23:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added the following prominent scholars, please do not remove:
Abu Dawood, who relates the narration in his collection, states the hadith is poor in authenticity. [2] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani describes this hadith as poor in authenticity, and quotes Imam Ahmad Bayhaqi’s point of view that it is "poor, with a broken chain of transmission" [3] Zein al-Din al-Iraqi points out in his commentary on Al-Ghazali’s Ihya ulum al-din (I:148) that the mentioned hadith has a weak chain of transmission." [1] Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr comments: "Those who consider (female) circumcision a sunna, use as evidence this hadith of Abu al-Malih, which is based solely on the evidence of Hajjaj ibn Artaa, who cannot be admitted as an authority when he is the sole transmitter. The consensus of Muslim scholars shows that circumcision is for men". [4]( Studentoftruth ( talk) 18:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC))
Phyesalis, your edit summary said: "Cultural aspects - returning footnote to original, quote does not state "female circumcision", please refrain from editing footnotes if you haven't read source material, assume good faith"
Note the brackets around [FGC], implying that the original phrased was replaced. I assume the quote in the source said "female circumcision," since the latter phrase is in the title of the article. There is no reason to change the quote to say "FGC," if indeed it said "female circumcision." You have asserted that the quote does not say "female circumcision" -- are you asserting that the original source does not say "female circumcision?" If so, what does it say?
Also, your directive to "assume good faith" is completely misplaced, and yet another violation of Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. See also " Assume the assumption of good faith." Blackworm ( talk) 22:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Good work, Blackworm! -- Coppertwig ( talk) 11:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
this edit deleted some material without explanation and deleted a ref tag, apparently leaving the reference display messed up ever since then. I've restored the deleted material and hope to fix the ref tags in a few minutes. I don't have much of an opinion at this point in time whether the restored material (other than the ref tag) stays in or not. Anyone may feel free to ask me to self-revert it out again if you provide some explanation why to remove it. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The situation is more complex than I thought. I've deleted this: <ref name="WHO_FGM-fact" /> because it has no content and doesn't display properly (i.e. there is no corresponding other ref tag containing the actual data). Maybe someone can find the corresponding data somewhere in the page history or someplace. The edit I mentioned above did mess up the ref tags, but they were immediately fixed, and then soon afterwards this edit deleted the data for <ref name="Skaine_FGM"/> , which then displayed as an error. Here's the data; someone may want to restore this to the article: <ref name="Skaine_FGM"> Female Genital Mutilation: Legal, Cultural and Medical Issues, by Rosemary Skaine; McFarland 2005, ISBN 0-7864-2163-3. </ref> which displays as [5]
The situation is much more complex but at least now the refs are displaying with no red error message.
Note: When editing this page, please be careful with the ref tags. If you remove a citation, you should check that no other footnote requires that data to display properly. (Look at the list of references in your revised version and see if any look blank. Look at the previous version before your edit and see if they already looked blank before. Please don't do edits that make some of the data in the footnotes disappear like that. I can help you figure out how to straighten out the ref tags if you ask me on my talk page. See also Help:Footnotes. If you remove citation information, it would be nice to place that information on this talk page in case anyone wants to get any other quotes out of the same source. Ref tags are tricky; putting <ref> and forgetting to close it with </ref> can mess up the display of all of the rest of the page, or a large part of it. If you insert and delete stuff you need to make sure the tags are working properly. I'm still planning to try to fix some of the blank footnotes. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I was wrong: I thought there were a few blank footnotes in the current version. They only looked blank at first glance. Actually they contain url's. They still need to be reformatted -- maybe I'll do that. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 17:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Currently it says "FGC is not mentioned in any Jewish religious text. [1] [2]" with the two footnotes being these two url's: [8] [9] The first one, in my opinion, does not support the statement and could possibly be seen as contradicting it. The second one supports the statement, though it's a statement by one individual (sounds like one who is an authority on the matter though). What to do? Just delete the first footnote? The first URL says "Circumcision was widespread in many ancient cultures. Some of these also practiced female circumcision, which was never allowed in Judaism." The second one says "The fact remains that African followers of the major world religions practice these customs. Male circumcision is an absolute requirement of Islam and Judaism, whereas female circumcision is not even mentioned in any religious text. However, scholars of African cultures would testify that on our continent traditional and tribal rituals commonly supersede religion." -- Coppertwig ( talk) 19:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC) No, wait. He seems to be an authority on female circumcision, not necessarily on Jewish texts. Maybe change the wording to "The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion states that female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism. Toubia (1995) states that female circumcision is not even mentioned in any religious text." I think I'll make that change. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 19:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I greatly appreciate supporting quotes in cites, especially cites to references not widely accessible online. It makes it much easier to find the relevant material, and also holds the material up for scrutiny by other editors. I believe the following is a bad example of a proposed supporting quote:
Found in a cite: quote="...clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision."
I don't understand what purpose is served by beginning such a quote, "...clitoridectomy, for example." What information has this given us? The following sentence only uses the pronoun "it" -- but what is "it?" Is "it" clitoridectomy? Clearly the way the source is quoted implies this, but we can't be sure, because the previous sentence is truncated. It would be extremely helpful if it could be restored.
Unfortunately, this situation makes it difficult to support the article text's inclusion. The "harm" of the third sentence's conclusion is the "harm" of the previous sentence, and that "harm" is applied to the "it" -- the "it" which we don't know what "it" is. The WP article uses this quote and this source to say: Benatar et al. state that practices such as clitoridectomy and excision are not analogous to male circumcision because of the difference in relative harm. I see two problematic issues here:
If no one suggests an edit, I'll try to do my best on it and see what happens. Blackworm ( talk) 11:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
There is value in stepping back from one's cultural assumptions. When one views male circumcision from another cultural perspective, one can only wonder what possessed ancient people to first think of removing the foreskin. Considered independently, it is about as strange as deciding to remove a part of the earlobe from all children. [End Page 43]
This is just the view many people have of clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision.
I support this edit which inserts "Cook states that..." and "...and that "this procedure in whatever form it is practised is not at all analogous to male circumcision." because it uses prose attribution to present the information in a NPOV way, it accurately reflects what the source says, it helps lengthen a paragraph that needed to be lengthened, and it flows smoothly into the following sentence. I'm just going to change "and" to "but" because it will flow more smoothly; the "but" is justified, IMO, by the word "however" in the source, which means essentially the same thing IMO. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 03:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The article says a lot about what africans and muslims do, but what about the kind of female genital mutilation that people did in countries like the US until the 50's to cure masturbation by removing the clitoris or burning it with acid etc? There's only a very brief mention of this under the christianity section. This should be addressed as well because the "western civilization" DOES have a history of FGM. 201.23.32.2 ( talk) 16:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
In Britain, clitoridectomy seems to have completely disappeared after the Baker Brown scandal. Only very occasionally did someone in authority still dare to say in public that the total ban of the practice was perhaps going too far. In the United States, by contrast, Baker Brown had numerous followers. According to the historian G. J. Barker-Benfield, clitoridectomies were performed from the 1860s until 1904, and circumcision of the clitoris (that is, removal of the foreskin) was advocated as a cure for mental illness.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) --
Coppertwig (
talk)
17:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)Although several European authorities had recommended clitoridectomy to treat nymphomania, they had few English followers. One was Samuel Atwell, who wrote in 1844 that "an enlarged clitoris" was sometimes marked "by exquisite sensibility of its mucous membrane," which often "gives rise to sexual passion and subdues every feeling of modesty." The result was headaches, attacks of hysteria, and loss of mental discipline, and Atwell recommended extirpation of the organ in these instances. English doctors tended to be skeptical, but one cited a comment in Thomas' Practice of Physic that "as the clitoris is the seat of pleasure ... nymphomania might possibly be cured by extirpating the organ."
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) I've left out superscripts for footnotes that are in the originals. --
Coppertwig (
talk)
17:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)I found an English-language source about the same subject as the link in the to-do box above to a French-language article:
"Woman jailed for 48 circumcisions". BBC News. BBC Online Network. 1999-02-17. Retrieved 2007-12-27. A Malian woman has been jailed for eight years for circumcising 48 girls following a Paris trial which pitted French law against African tradition.
"The court also convicted more than two dozen parents who took their girls to Hawa Greou for genital mutilation. Most received suspended prison terms....
"Female circumcision became a crime in France in 1984, but it was not until 1991 that the first conviction was handed down.{{
cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) --
Coppertwig (
talk)
19:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, [ this edit] serves to reinforce the fact that the arguments presented (exclusively by Phyesalis, if I'm not mistaken) in favour of Phyesalis' unilateral recent shifting the focus of this article away from discussion of FGC's religious aspects where they exist, to a contradictory mix of:
Please help me, I have no clue how or why something being primarily a cultural practice would be evidence of it transcending religion, especially if there is evidence of people practicing it today as part of their religion. This is a direct assault on
WP:NPOV. The second sentence, I've already dissected as pure nonsense when it was expressed slightly differently, in my edit of this Talk page, 16:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC). How do you walk up to a person practicing FGC as part of their religion and tell them that "no, here at Wikipedia, we've precluded an unequivocal link between religion and FGC." It is documented that people practice this as part of their religion. Claiming without attribution in prose that they really don't is insulting to me, as it reeks of
ethnocentrism, but more importantly, it wholeheartedly violates
POV as it is
verifiable that it is falsehood in the case of certain religions. It's like saying, "no one thinks FGC is a duty of their religion," when that statement is clearly contradicted by
reliable sources. It's not Wikipedian to make that claim, especially without attribution to a notable party. Why no one has the courage to come forward in agreement with me on this is extremely discouraging.
Phyesalis, your coming in here and writing all this nonsensical stuff (I'm really sorry, but I assume you are an adult and can handle criticism of your writing, and frankly, attempts to walk on eggshells and not hurt your feelings seem to have totally failed), reverting attempts to delete it that are based on sound interpretation of policy by an apparently more experienced editor, then turning around and telling that editor, basically, to "fix it yourself if you don't like it," is unacceptable behaviour. Please, please come to a meeting of minds with me on this, at least.
This article needs heavy trimming to bring certain sections into consistency. To both recent editors, squabbling over details of which term comes first, you are both missing the point. Comment on the huge dispute over the large amounts of questionable material added recently, please. I'm almost sure Phyesalis agrees with me that your input would be appreciated by all. Be bold, rather than a mute spectator.
I switched the top billing of the terms again to draw attention to this much more important point. If some editors take that action as a WP:DISRUPTION or a WP:POINT VIOLATION or WP:INCIVIL or WP:WHATEVER, so be it; in my view, it is NOT any of those things. Blackworm ( talk) 05:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The WHO is clearly in favor of outlawing and stamping out the practice of FGC. Therefore isn't using the WHO's definition (which contains heavily connotated words like describing FGC as any "injury") a step away from NPOV? If we are going to quote a definition of FGC, we ought to use a source that comes does not push an anti-FGC agenda so heavily. This is a volatile enough topic. Thoughts? Brandoid ( talk) 23:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the factual error in describing Type II circumcision. I also removed the following sentence which seems unsupported by its cited source: Due to the sewing together of the leftover labia minora epidermis, which contains sweat glands, a buildup of sweat and urine in the closed off space beneath this closure can lead to local or urinary infection, septicemia, hemorrhaging and cyst formation. [4] The reference is to a study of 300 Somali women, and there seems to be no indication of the cause of the complications, nor any indication that the complications mentioned all occur from Type II circumcision. Perhaps this could be rephrased and added to the "medical consequences" section.
I will now attempt to tackle the factual errors in the "Type III" section. Blackworm ( talk) 06:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The following was recently added to the section under 'female circumcision':
I have removed it, because of several problems:
Jakew ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent.) In [ this edit], I change the second sentence in an attempt to address your concerns, Jake. Blackworm ( talk) 00:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are some possible sources that themselves comment on the usage of the term 'female circumcision'.
Jakew ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to step in here and say that I believe Blackworm's edit to be valid according to wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:OR states that "care should be taken not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources". It is mainly a NPOV construct. Blackworm has stayed true to his sources and has not pushed an agenda independent of his sources. If you have issues with the individual sources, question them instead of the entire clause, which seems to be well supported. Brandoid ( talk) 03:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following:
Although labeled Sunna by Islamic advocates of the practice, most Muslim clergy oppose all forms of female genital cutting as it is viewed as a social custom, rather than a religious practice. According to Dr. Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Salieh at the Swiss Institute of Comparative Law:
Islamic juridical logic cannot acknowledge the distinction between female and male circumcision, both being the mutilation of healthy organs which is damaging to the physical integrity of the child, whatever the underlying religious motivations. Furthermore, both practices violate the Koran: "Our Lord, You did not create all this in vain" (3:191), and "[He] perfected everything He created" (32:7).
— [16]
It seems tangential at best, under the definition of WHO Type I FGC. Blackworm ( talk) 20:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Blackworm, I would like to inquiry about the revert that just occured of my recent edit to this article. If "female circumcision" should not be abbreviated in the intro like the other two terms are, why is it thus abbreviated lower in the text? Next, why all the brackets in the intro, if it's possible to make the sentence more appealing by removing them? As for referencing authors, it's standard practice and common courtesy to first-time readers to provide the full name of an author upon first mention and then to make further references using the last name only. Why the exception for this article? Lastly, isn't it true that the term "female circumcision" is not as common today as it was earlier in history? Blackworm, please respond to my concerns when you can. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 00:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Homologeo. I'll answer your questions in order:
I hope this addresses your concerns. Blackworm ( talk) 00:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone else think this article may be biased as it seems to focus on the negatives of female circumcision and does not appear to address any perceived medical benefits of female circumcision? Bagofants ( talk) 16:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
It's surprising that this article discusses the attitudes towards female genital cutting in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, but very little is said about African Traditional Religions. This practice is most prevalent in African traditional communities, and is often attributed to ATR practices, so it would makes sense for there to be a major component to this article that deals with ATR as it relates to FGC. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 21:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
# The surprising and perplexing significant inverse association between reported female circumcision and HIV seropositivity remained highly statistically significant in the final logistic regression model, despite the presence of other significant potential confounders, namely, geographic zone, household wealth index, woman´s age, lifetime sex partners, and current/past union status.
As no biological mechanism seems plausible, we conclude that it is due to irreducible confounding.
(Outdenting.) I'm not sure that I agree that the reliability of sources is determined by "what we do with them," except to the extent WP:OR and WP:V must be followed, also by attributing challenged views. I'm guessing that's what you meant. Perhaps it would help if you suggested an edit. How about, as a start: Stallings et al. concluded that a lowered risk of HIV infection among circumcised women was not attributable to confounding with any other risk factors they studied. (I hope you will not argue that "another" in the original source, in this context, applies to a particular factor they are withholding from us?) If you reject this edit, please suggest one. Blackworm ( talk) 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(Outdenting.) You're right about both names; I should have read more carefully. Now the only question remaining is why you'd prefer to source a PowerPoint document that requires special software to read properly (and opens editors to viruses), instead of a simple, easily accessible, safe HTML abstract of the presentation. You seem to insist on presenting the authors' conclusions regarding plausible biological mechanisms and irreducible confounding, conclusions they saw fit to omit from their abstract. I don't have any remaining objection to that -- we'll just need to cite your separate PPT source from the abstract I will cite for the other conclusions. And of course, should any sources come to light examining possible biological female genital pathways for HIV, or stating that such pathways are plausible, we can cite those and discuss their views.
You say, It is inaccurate to state that Stallings' work is based upon the THIS report. The Stallings' PPT source says, This analysis and its findings are derived from the 2003-04 Tanzania HIV/AIDS Indicator Survey (the THIS) [...]. I'll leave the reader to decide if your comments is relevant. The THIS report is one thing, Stallings' examination of THIS data is another thing. The THIS results were "unexpected" and called for more study, and Stallings' "sought to explain an unanticipated significant crude association of lower HIV risk among circumcised women" in the THIS survey "by examining other factors which might confound this crude association." They concluded that "A lowered risk of HIV infection among circumcised women was not attributable to confounding with another risk factor in these data," and characterized this as a "conundrum." [16]
If I were to nitpick, I might argue that their data is not strictly a "superset" of the THIS data. Stallings' conclusions in the PowerPoint about "plausible biological mechanisms," for example, is clearly not derived from THIS data (nor is it remotely clear what that statement is derived from). Their stuff about "logistic regression models" also seems to imply a specific interpretation of the data (do other "models" exist which might cause one to arrive at different conclusions about the same raw data?). Regardless, there is no need to argue about that when citing all three sources is perfectly appropriate. If you feel a need to mention the other three studies, we should indeed begin by summarizing them. Blackworm ( talk) 23:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Please move the article to Female Genital Mutilation, this name is correct and encyclopedic, as you see in WHO and UN's articles. Thanks -- Taranet ( talk) 17:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I guess it's Round 2 (or 3 or 4) for the article title... Well, once again, female genital cutting is the most NPOV term available that is also used by mainstream organizations around the world. To simply state that FGC is mutilation does not make the case true, because there is a number of procedures that fit into the category of FGC, several of which can hardly be deemed mutilation. Not sure what people have against the word cutting, when it's clearly the most neutral term available - one that does not attempt to slant the subject matter in one direction or the other. Let's let facts and information within the article speak for themselves, rather than biasing the text from the get-go. Readers are not stupid, and will make their own conclusions. Besides, the article does not attempt to conceal the other frequently used terms (female genital mutilation and female circumcision), and clearly explains which groups use what terminology and why. In my opinion, the article should stay where it is, for there's no need for extra controversy and mudding of water. For the moment, this seems to be a quality text that a number of editors put a great deal of time and energy into creating. If there's something within the content that is an issue for anyone, editors are free to edit and to discuss changes on the Talk Page. ~ Homologeo ( talk) 02:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I googled FGM, and was shocked when this article came up as a response. The Wiki community seriously considers "female genital cutting" a neutral terminology? The word "cutting" does not even begin to encompass the practices involved in FGM, all of which are painful and have negative consequences which I won't detail because they're already in the article for you to read yourself. While the term may be used in WHO and other international organization documents, the reasoning for this is overwhelmingly so that advocacy in local communities is not damaged by perceived insensitivity. It is used not because it is accurate or neutral, but as a political strategy to make it easier to advocate for the eradication of the practice itself. However, when we are discussing the practice with anyone other than a particular individual who believes in the practice, there is no reason to continue using the white-washed/euphemistic term. The white-washing only serves to insulate people from the reality of the practice and allow them to brush off its seriousness -- something which seems pretty non-neutral to me. The article as a whole seems to give the minority viewpoint on this issue altogether too much weight. The evidence against FGM is pretty overwhelmning, and the inclusion of "sensitive" terms and arguments which are obviously unfounded is biased in and of itself. It's the same as having an article about slavery titled something like "Compulsory non-paid employment" and saying things like having a whole section (one that is nearly as large as the one detailing the harms of the practice) which says things like "it is argued by advocated of compulsory non-paid employment that black-skinned persons are inferior and deserve to be enslaved. Other arguments include the argument that black-skinned persons are not actually persons." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.69.229 ( talk) 22:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was this edit made? What is and other such procedures? Why are we concerned with "style" over accuracy? Adding the word "such" makes it seem like we are saying the procedures are similar. Is putting herbs in a vagina to make it tighter (one form of FGC) similar to female genital surgery? Blackworm ( talk) 07:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
There are some errors in what is said about sexual consequences.
"In the early 1980s, Hanny Lightfoot-Klein traveled throughout Sudan (where Type III is the prevalent form of FGC, ~90%) asking women who had undergone FGC how often they had experienced orgasm during intercourse.[61] Many of the women had no idea what an orgasm was. Others interviewed (especially if the surgery excised less tissue) not only insisted that they did achieve orgasm, ranging from 90% of the time when they were young to 10% of the time once they had children, but were open to talking about their experiences. The women were able to describe in great detail exactly what an orgasm meant to them."
I don't have Lightfoot-Kleins book right here now, but an article summarizing her study can be reached here: Lightfoot-Klein, Hanny (1989): "The Sexual Experience and Marital Adjustment of Genitally Circumcised and Infibulated Females in The Sudan". The Journal of Sex Research Vol.26. No.3, pp.375-392. http://www.fgmnetwork.org/authors/Lightfoot-klein/sexualexperience.htm
There she wrote: "Contrary to expectations, nearly 90% of all women interviewed said that they experienced orgasm (climax) or had at various periods of their marriage experienced it. Frequency ranged from always to rarely. Some women said that they had intense, prolonged orgasms, and this was verified by their happy and highly animated demeanor as they described it. Other women said that their orgasms were weak or difficult to achieve."
Obviously, there seems to be a misrepresentation of what Lightfoot-Klein acyually said in this FGC Wikipedia article. Further, the sentence "Many of the women had no idea what an orgasm was" probably has an entirely different source. This sentence may originate from Elchalal et al. (1997) who wrote; "Women interviewed in Sudan who had undergone female genital mutilation had no idea of the existence of orgasm" (p.649). THEIR statement, in turn, has as its only reference Dorkenoo & Elworth (1992): "Dr. A.A. Shandall found that some of the women he interviewed in the Sudan had no idea at all of the existence of orgasm" (p.9, my emphasis). Shandall published a short article in 1967. Wow! Rephrased 40 years later in Wikipedia.
Can I ask someone to deal with this? I am not a native speaker of English, so I'm afraid I'll mess up the grammar (and the references). Best wishes from Sweden, Hssajo ( talk) 18:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Blackworm! I have inserted your suggestion and added some references at the top of the section on sexuality. I also have to say that I really liked much of your discussion here on this page, for instance whether the WHO can be seen as a completely neutral actor or not. Above ("WHO definition") I have added a link that may interest you, raising this issue. Best, Hssajo ( talk)
This section is heavily biased. This may be a result of the fact that it builds almost exclusively on a thirty year old article (Pieters 1977). There is so much updated literature on this. For instance, several recent studies show that the clitoris is more often than not intact (or almost intact) beneath the bridge of tissue created by infibulation. (E.g. Nour, Nawal M., Karin B. Michels, and Ann E. Bryant: "Defibulation to treat female genital cutting: Effects on Symptoms and Sexual Function." Obstetrics and Gyneacology 108(1):55-60, 2006; Gordon H, Comerasamy H, Morris NH. "Female genital mutilation: Experience in a West London clinic." J Obstet Gynaecol. May;27(4):416-9, 2007; Catania L, Abdulcadir O, Puppo V, Verde JB, Abdulcadir J, Abdulcadir D: "Pleasure and orgasm in women with Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting (FGM/C)". J Sex Med. Nov;4(6):1666-78, 2007.)
Further, reinfibulation is pictured as commonly required ("Afterwards, the patient may insist that her vulva be closed again"). Reinfibulation is a Sudanese practice, but rare in e.g. Somalia. I think this, among many other things, needs to be clarified. Will anybody be offended if I give it a try?
Hssajo (
talk)
14:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Molly Melching of TOSTAN believes that in Senegal the practice of female genital mutilation could be ended within 2–5 years." Did she really say that, without adding any prerequisites? I tried to find the source given, but could not make the link work. Trying to google it, I only found an almost identical FGC article on Cassiopedia (and now I am really confused; I didn't even know that encyclopedia existed). Can this statement still be there without a reference that can be found? (Forgive a newcomer for being trying.) Hssajo ( talk) 09:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this typology is not the optimal way to describe these practices, but as long as it is there in the article, I think it is a good idea to offer the most correct information. I tried to update the section, but messed up the existing references. Is there anyone out there who would like to insert the new typology?
Discussed more in detail in Eliminating female genital mutilation. An interagency statement (WHO, 2008), which can be downloaded from here: http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/fgm/terminology.htm Hssajo ( talk) 20:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not crazy about having long quotes in the references - for one thing, I've seen them not even quoting anything from the referenced text (I think some editors were using it to indicate which part of the article they were providing a reference for...) Anyway, unless the source isn't available online, I don't think the quotes are terribly valuable. If anything they could be seen as an editor trying to minimize exposure of the source to just the fragments that support a claim. I also think they clutter up the reference list. Thoughts? Ciotog ( talk) 21:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The new WHO documents are overwhelming -- both their definitions of FGC (WHO: "FGM") and the type classifications have been changed as of this year, rendering all previous sources' comments on WHO Types ambiguous. The WHO states that this is to "accommodate concerns and shortcomings," yet immediately I'm confused as to how to proceed with editing the section on WHO-Type I FGM, which they describe as "Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy)." If we are to define a procedure involving only the removal of the female prepuce, leaving the clitoris intact, as "clitoridectomy," this poses a serious question; it would thus seem logical to describe circumcision of males as "penectomy." I don't believe the WHO wishes to suggest this, yet the penis is the homologue of the clitoris, [18] and the prepuce is a common anatomical structure of the female and male [19] -- in males, it is also called the foreskin. Further, medical sources define clitoridectomy differently from the WHO, as "excision of all or part of the clitoris." [20]. How should we approach these apparent contradictions? Blackworm ( talk) 01:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
In medical dictionaries, the word ‘clitoridectomy’ is defined as “excision of the clitoris”, or “removal of the clitoris”. In a medical perspective, there is no reason to include ‘only damage to the prepuce’ in the category ‘clitoridectomy’. The reason that there are no references discussing the new WHO typology yet is that it is so new… Medical researchers simply follow the WHO. I checked some of the recent texts in PubMed, key word ‘clitoridectomy’, and all of them cite the (former) WHO typology. (For instance, Bikoo M. 2007, Monjol et al. 2007, Catania et al. 2007.) Even if they use the term ‘clitoridectomy’, they do not explicitly define it, but refer to the WHO classification.
The updated typology has taken into consideration recent research discussion on the flaws of the former typology (for instance the fact that so many women who are circumcised according to type III have their clitoris intact, see above). Anyway, the WHO has revised the typology and as a matter of fact there IS a discrepancy between the new typology and a) what is said about clitoridectomies in medical dictionaries; and b) what is said by medical researchers in their articles (since they cite the former typology). Probably there will soon be medical sources that cite the new typology; in whatever time it takes for a medical article to go through the process of being in press. But until then – there IS a gap. Is it really WP:OR to state that? Hssajo ( talk) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone navigating here for information on the subject has to wade through multiple paragraphs about politics and semantics. Even the thesis is unclear. The first section is about terminology! 71.131.176.75 ( talk) 08:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"...clitoridectomy, for example. Of course, in addition to being strange (at least to those outside of the cultures where it is practiced), is also very harmful. It is this harm that separates female genital excision from male circumcision. (p44)
{{
cite journal}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |journal=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help)