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Hi Md iet, your edit about the Musta'li would need reliable sources (RS). Even with sources that would be too much about this one group, but to mention them at all would need some RS. SarahSV (talk) 17:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
[3]; Hindustan Times: Female Genital Mutilation debate puts Bohra women on opposite sides
[4]; newsin.asia: female-circumcision-communities-call-religious-freedom-upheld.
Hope these would be good.-- Md iet ( talk) 04:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Book:Female "circumcision" in Africa: Culture, Controversy, and Change; edited by: Bettina Shell-Duncan, Ylva Hernlund [8].| Quotes: “...we agree that term’ mutilation ‘denotes condemnation and will use FGM in context of discourses employing that term....In all other context we will instead use ‘female genital cutting' or female 'circumcision’.” (Ch.1, page:6,7)... Editors were ‘stuck by different perspectives…’ and ‘inspired them’ to examine the topic in a multidisciplinary manner…”. (preface page vii)
This RS seems to be taken care of different perspectives and examined the issue from all the required angles. There finding to use terms 'circumscion' or FGM need attention.-- Md iet ( talk) 15:13, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I had posted this heading and information, and SlimVirgin had deleted it based on the claim of RS. The information I posted was as follows: Lack of evidence of complications or harm for Type 1a Although there are many studies proving evidence of harm from FGM, the evidence provided on harm for FGM is related to Type 1b, 2 & 3, and not type 1a and type 4.[63] WHO confirms they have no recorded clinical evidence of harm against the Type 1a.[75] [76] When specifically asked, the "WHO said it does not compile individual reports but rather looks at the body of evidence from scientific literature to develop its positions about health risks and the public health and human rights significance of the practice", "and within those reports there was no scientific study to prove that Type 1a has caused any clinical harm".[75] The Type 1a procedure is harmless, which is similar to ear piercing which is done purely for cosmetic reasons.[77]
I would like to re-post the information but looking for a re-draft to better the text. It is very important that Type 1a female circumcisioon is differentiated from the other methods, and, most importantly, clearly mention that till date, there is no evidence that Type 1a has caused any form of harm. All the evidence provided by the WHO against FGM relates to procedures other than Type 1a. Please help improve the article. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:27, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
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Following my post in March that I was adding wikicite to UN reports, [9] I'm considering again changing the citation style to {{ sfn}} for journal articles or books that are used repeatedly with different page numbers. I'm not certain yet which sources to do it for, or even whether to go ahead, but I'd like to experiment, so I'm checking here, per WP:CITEVAR, in case there are objections. SarahSV (talk) 00:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
In this edit, Wikimandia changed
to
That changed the article from permalink to permalink. I suppose there is some technical benefit for the double cropping (more focused on the face) but the original seems more appropriate here. Johnuniq ( talk) 04:13, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The sentence that mentions that since Female Circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran - therefore it is unIslamic - is a misleading statement. This is because MOST of the Islamic practices follolwed by the Muslims is NOT mentioned in the Quran, rather, it is mentioned in the traditions of the Prophet Muhhammed. Thus I removed it. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:32, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
I also suggest removing the following sentence "but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion", because only about 3 of the 100s of sources talk about "chastity", all the other versions mention it is done to increase sexual pleasure between male and female couples. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you've not explained your reason for revert. In my explanation I explained 1) The idea that since FC is not mentioned in the Quran and therefore un-Islamic isn't correct, because most Islamic practices are not mentioned in the Quran, including Male circumcision. Islamic practices and the details on how it should be done are found in the traditions of the Prophet Mohammed. So, that sentence in itself is wrong and misleading. You may refer to (Arora KS, Jacobs AJ. Female genital alteration: a compromise solution. Journal of Medical Ethics 2016), where they say: "It is no more possible to define Islam within the four corners of the Quran than to define Christianity (which includes traditions ranging from Presbyterian to Pentecostal to Greek Orthodoxy) solely from a reading of the Bible. Rather, the content of religious belief and practice are guided by interpretive texts and traditions. Thus, many Muslim scholars classify Female Genital Alteration (FGA) as ‘Sunnah’ or practice established by the Prophet Muhammad. Though not prescribed explicitly in the Quran, the practice thus is religiously virtuous. In fact, the colloquial term for FGA procedures in Arabic refers to a ritual state of purity.” For those who aren't aware, even simple "Islamic" practices like praying 5 times a day, or how to pray or fast, are not mentioned in the Quran - the details are found in the traditions and narrations of the Prophet Mohammed. 2) I also cited information that FC was deemed obligatory by certain sects in Islam namely the Shaafi'i and Hanbali, you can view the information here: /info/en/?search=Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation
That is why I wrote "In Islam, Type 1a female circumcision is praised in several hadith (sayings attributed to Muhammad) as noble, sunnah (tradition), or waajib (mandatory) - based on the various Sunni Islam & Shia Islam traditions" 3) I didn't make this edit, but I did suggest it, that "the following sentence "but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion", because only about 3 of the 100s of sources talk about "chastity", all the other versions mention it is done to increase sexual pleasure between male and female couples. Thus, you haven't explained on what basis you reverted the edits. I request a vote from editors to confirm my findings as well. Muffizainu ( talk) 07:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Jim1138 & SlimVirgin - I am already discussing this and I think this requires a response/counter response. Because when some one reverts, it is their duty to explain their reverts and engage in discussion on talk page as well. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Johnuniq I think you are mistaken or have misunderstood what I have said. 1) About Female Circumcision not in the Quran. I have cited above reliable sources WP:RS "Journal of Medical Ethics 2016" above, and in that they say that just because it's not in the Quran doesn't negate the fact that it is an integral path of the Islamic tradition. To add to that, I was just explaining that MOST Islamic practices are NOT in the Quran - for example, Male Circumcision, so, the fact that it's not in the Quran doesn't negate the fact that it is an Islamic tradition. If you want more citiations, then please view this link: /info/en/?search=Khitan_(circumcision) 2) About Azhar, I will add some information to the article to show that even within Al-Azhar there are many positions. The rulings Azhar or UNICED aren't absolutist, and have changed over time and highly contested. 3) Type 1a not harmful: You answered your own question. If the WHO fact sheet says that Type 1a is "very rare" and usually Type 1b, that proves that we aren't talking about Type 1b, and that isn't a matter of contention, and they are 2 different prodecures. Hence, I stand by the statement that Type 1a isn't Type 1b, rare or not, and if you disagree, then I request you to bring me ONE citation that clearly mentions the harm in Type 1a (not 1b or above). Muffizainu ( talk) 04:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin Thank you for the information on the Bohra community, but my and talk messages haven't been about that. I have edited or suggested 1) Quran 2) FC in Islam 3) Disagreement about Azhar University Clergy. Yet, you haven't been able to justify your reverts. Secondly, the citations do mention clitoris (Type 1b), although that information, may or may not be correct, I haven't brought it up, and am not making edits in regard to that. What I did say is that Type 1a is different to Type 1b - and whether Type 1b is practiced, it's still not Type 1a - and, if you have ANY information on the harm of Type 1a, then I would like to see it. Thanks Muffizainu ( talk) 06:11, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin - Can you explain why you have reverted the Azhar University Edits? After citations provided. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
As for Azhar, here's some information to show even the recent disagreements: In 2007, as a response to the statements issued by Mohammed Syyed Tantawi and Ali Jumua wherein the practise of khafd was considered un-Islamic and directed against, a group of jurists and intellectuals re-asserted the 1981 findings of al Shaykh al Azhar Jad al Haq mentioned earlier. https://ar.islamway.net/article/2362/%D8%AC%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B2%D9%87%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%AF-%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%89-%D8%B7%D9%86%D8%B7%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D8%A8%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%85-%D8%AE%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AB Dr Mohammed Musayyar in an interview published by Memri in 2007 says that even though all the four Madhahib have different interpretations in the matter varying from obligatory to sunnah to a noble deed. (2007, May 23). Islamic Scholars on Female Circumcision - YouTube. Retrieved July 22, 2017, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oI0KmUKq8 In an interview published by Memri in 2007, Dr Mohammed Wahdan- a lecturer in Al Azhar University claimed that the origin of female circumcision is since the time of prophet Ibrahim whose first wife Sarrah was jealous of Hajar. Islamic Religious Experts on Female Circumcision - YouTube. N.p., 23 May 2007. Web. 22 July 2017. < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUvrHsPaTSo>. Among the scholars and institutions that support female circumcision according to an article published in 2005 is: Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqr – the former head of the Fatwa Committee in Al-Azhar, and Dar al-Ifta Al-Misriyah. http:// www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/60314/female%20circumcision%20in%20islam (Munajjid, 2014)
Besides Azhar, there are many other Islamic Organizations that have validated the tradition of Female Circumcision. That should also be added. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I have addressed the points raised. The original text said that the Azhar University disagreed with the practice. I provided information that the University itself has disagreements within itself, and thus, that information is irrelavant on the page. I provided the citations. If you want to keep the Azhar disagreeing, then you can also put the citations that Azhar agrees with female circumcicision as well. This will give both sides of the story. If it all it has been I who've been discussing on the talk page, and User Slim Virgin is deleting without providing any justification. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practiced." That is a quote from a UNICEF news report that refers to the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research. A claim that others at the university where the Council is located disagree is not relevant. After-the-fact sources with claims that the purpose of s certain form of FGM is to increase sexual pleasure of the couple cannot be used to balance UNICEF. Johnuniq ( talk) 02:54, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
As for the Islamic position, I have even cited the Journal of Medical Ethics 2016, which you have completely ignored. And the Islamic position cannot be ignored. I will quote it again for your information. (Arora KS, Jacobs AJ. Female genital alteration: a compromise solution. Journal of Medical Ethics 2016), where they say: "It is no more possible to define Islam within the four corners of the Quran than to define Christianity (which includes traditions ranging from Presbyterian to Pentecostal to Greek Orthodoxy) solely from a reading of the Bible. Rather, the content of religious belief and practice are guided by interpretive texts and traditions. Thus, many Muslim scholars classify Female Genital Alteration (FGA) as ‘Sunnah’ or practice established by the Prophet Muhammad. Though not prescribed explicitly in the Quran, the practice thus is religiously virtuous. In fact, the colloquial term for FGA procedures in Arabic refers to a ritual state of purity.” Muffizainu ( talk) 06:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I am not as proficient with you with wikipedia talkpage formatting, I'm learning but I will try to format it better. It does say it's a guideline not a policy - still I know it makes things easier and I will try to follow as closely. Feel free to point out if I make a mistake as we are all volunteers here and no one is an expert. Secondly, I'm not pushing my POV. I am seeking taklpage consensus. If I was pushing my POV, I would have still been reverting. So please assume good faith which is too a wikipedia recommendation. I did not go directly to RSN noticeboard because talk page is the first place to discuss the dispute. It is incorrect to say discuss there, not here. Now that we have had an initial discussion, I will be happy to take it to RSN if you dont agree and I will follow all proper channels as I dont want to break any rules. Furthermore, if you think there's no consensus on my edits, I seek to change that consensus because this consensus is between just the three of us as of now and Consensus can change. I will first verify my sources and then involve other neutral editors here on talk page. I do not intend to enforce my own opinion without consensus so nothing to worry about. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
...speaking of PTSD:
Noting that I had to use rollback to undo Md iet's edits, because I wasn't able to load the page to do it manually. I tried several times and got a "secure connection failed" message. It's not the first time I've had problems loading this page. SarahSV (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
In the matter a part of discussion is copied here from my talk page to reply here at the concerned page:
"...To help aware the menace of doing FGM using whatever methods available and making the life of innocents venerable, a better approach is required to control the dangerous practice.-- Md iet ( talk) 06:28, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
All the source must comply with WP:MEDRS seems a very harsh condition, when the issue is of so grave nature and multi aspects including religious angle affecting faith of a person is involved.
We need to have thorough discussion on matter, I suppose.-- Md iet ( talk) 12:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I think as per WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:OM, the currently external images should be directly included in the article, if the image license does not allow it, another image should be chosen. Besides some of them are returning 403 errors. Franciscouzo ( talk) 18:34, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
FGM is such an issue which is affecting life of many innocents in the name of faith. This issue need a complete new approach to handle it. In the name of faith, religion and nonsense issues politics is played and there is heavy loss to human beings. FGM is also a similar faith issue, which is playing menace.
Definitely FGM can be termed as cruelty to children, but it is harming them more if practice is not made under control and to perform FGM non scientific means are used. This issue need an open mind thorough discussion on subject making all the issues very clear to the communities where it is in practice.
There are no indication of effect of various control being used to abolish the practice. Legislation will never give any full proof solution in the matter of faith and people may find some other means , which may harm more. This is perfectly position on FGM.
When practice is legally acceptable for male with all surgical procedure used on children, as it is proven to be advantageous. Although many research is done on FGM, there are always some scope left when we see that even new elements and planets are discovered now and then. Restricting non MEDRS sources is restricting same as restricting thoughts and discussions, then how can further research can be initiated.
Our main aim should be to restrict dangerous practice in the way it is done, whatever approach we take. Wikipedian's views on this serious subject are welcome.-- Md iet ( talk) 14:07, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
"Despite 30 years of advocacy, the prevalence of nontherapeutic female genital alteration (FGA) in minors is stable in many countries. Educational efforts have minimally changed the prevalence of this procedure in regions where it has been widely practiced. In order to better protect female children from the serious and longterm harms of some types of non-therapeutic FGA, we must adopt a more nuanced position that acknowledges a wide spectrum of procedures that alter female genitalia. We offer a revised categorisation for nontherapeutic FGA that groups procedures by effect and not by process. Acceptance of de minimis procedures that generally do not carry long-term medical risks is culturally sensitive, does not discriminate on the basis of gender, and does not violate human rights. More morbid procedures should not be performed. However, accepting de minimis non-therapeutic f FGA procedures enhances the effort of compassionate practitioners searching for a compromise position that respects cultural differences but protects the health of their patients." ...Paper: "Female genital alteration: a compromise solution" by: Kavita Shah Arora,1,2 Allan J Jacobs3 [10].
This paper is very reliable and can be a guide line toward protecting innocent victims. Editors requested to put forward their views on inclusion of the ideas in this feature Article. -- Md iet ( talk) 14:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Faith religion is a such issue which better can be resolved through guiding the affected through proper channels. Women are affected because of this and they only are most rigid on following the faith. Men concerned many times even do not know of the existence of the practice in their family.-- Md iet ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
FGM is such an issue which is affecting life of many innocents in the name of faith. This issue need a complete new approach to handle it. In the name of faith, religion and nonsense issues politics is played and there is heavy loss to human beings. FGM is also a similar faith issue, which is playing menace.
Definitely FGM can be termed as cruelty to children, but it is harming them more if practice is not made under control and to perform FGM non scientific means are used. This issue need an open mind thorough discussion on subject making all the issues very clear to the communities where it is in practice.
There are no indication of effect of various control being used to abolish the practice. Legislation will never give any full proof solution in the matter of faith and people may find some other means , which may harm more. This is perfectly position on FGM.
When practice is legally acceptable for male with all surgical procedure used on children, as it is proven to be advantageous. Although many research is done on FGM, there are always some scope left when we see that even new elements and planets are discovered now and then. Restricting non MEDRS sources is restricting same as restricting thoughts and discussions, then how can further research can be initiated.
Our main aim should be to restrict dangerous practice in the way it is done, whatever approach we take. Wikipedian's views on this serious subject are welcome.-- Md iet ( talk) 14:07, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
"Despite 30 years of advocacy, the prevalence of nontherapeutic female genital alteration (FGA) in minors is stable in many countries. Educational efforts have minimally changed the prevalence of this procedure in regions where it has been widely practiced. In order to better protect female children from the serious and longterm harms of some types of non-therapeutic FGA, we must adopt a more nuanced position that acknowledges a wide spectrum of procedures that alter female genitalia. We offer a revised categorisation for nontherapeutic FGA that groups procedures by effect and not by process. Acceptance of de minimis procedures that generally do not carry long-term medical risks is culturally sensitive, does not discriminate on the basis of gender, and does not violate human rights. More morbid procedures should not be performed. However, accepting de minimis non-therapeutic f FGA procedures enhances the effort of compassionate practitioners searching for a compromise position that respects cultural differences but protects the health of their patients." ...Paper: "Female genital alteration: a compromise solution" by: Kavita Shah Arora,1,2 Allan J Jacobs3 [11].
This paper is very reliable and can be a guide line toward protecting innocent victims. Editors requested to put forward their views on inclusion of the ideas in this feature Article. -- Md iet ( talk) 14:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Further suggestion to tackle the issues pointed above is requested.-- Md iet ( talk) 03:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
References
1. The page "Female Circumcision" redirects to the FGM page. The problem with this redirecting is that it equates Female Circumcision = FGM. This is incorrect. Female Circumcision is a name given to a procedure/practice, and FGM is an umbrella term by the WHO, given for many (about 6) different procedure/practice from which female circumcision is one of them. Just like piercing is also a practice that comes under the FGM umbrella term. Therefore, Female Circumsiion ⊆ FGM (FC is a subset of FGM), not Female Circumcision = FGM.
2. This is further established by the WHO themselves who refer to Type 1a as female "circumcision" on page 2 of . Reference: http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/management-health-complications-fgm/en/ WHO guidelines on the management of health complications from female genital mutilation 3. Therefore, in order to be clear, I propose having a short description of "female circumcision", describing Type 1a clitoral hood procedure as per the WHO document. And then mention that the WHO considers this FGM. Below this, have a "see more" tab below it then linking it to the FGM page.
Muffizainu ( talk) 06:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Johnuniq How is it one topic? When there are two terms?
FGM and Female Circumcision. One is a practice, and one is a term given to a collection of practices. And that is why the redirecting is problematic.
[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]]What exactly is your argument here? The FGM article uses a the term "FGM", solely because it was coined by the WHO. And here, i'm providing a citation that the WHO themselves called Type 1a "female circumcision". So what more information do you need? If it wasn't for the WHO, you wouldn't have the term "FGM".
If you're looking for more sources, look no further that the Britanica Dictionary. It calls the Islamic practice of Type 1a "FEMALE CIRCUMCISION"
So, you have the WHO and a Dictionary statement.
Hence, what I propose is not to do a blanket re-directing. First clarify the term "Female Circumcision" according to the WHO guidelines and dictionary. They say that the WHO considers it amoungst one of the practices of FGM, and then have a "See more" tag to the FGM page. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:16, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
1) If you agree that "female circumcision" is a category or type of practice, then why shouldn't it have a separate page to describe the various definitions of the term "female circumcision" by various authorities, and also include the WHO's definition if you want - as one of those defintions. Everything doesn't need to revolve solely around the WHO's stance.
2) The term "FGM" was coined by the WHO, so, the FGM page can be limited to the WHO's stance on the subject.
Muffizainu ( talk) 06:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)The first sentence of the article is incorrect because it says FGM is "also known as" female circumcision. FGM is an umbrella term by the WHO, where as FC is one practice that falls under the WHO's coined term. I have added a citation needed tag to confirm the defintion of FGM = FC. If not then then I propose it should be reworded. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
SlimVirginTerminology section doesn't refer to how FGM is also known as female circumcision. Please TALK or add suitable reference. You may want to refer to this article for a better idea on the term: https://www.britannica.com/topic/female-genital-cutting Muffizainu ( talk) 09:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Though supporters of Khafd in India claim Bohras only practice Type 1a (removal of clitoral hood only) and Type 4 FGM/C (pricking, piercing, cauterization), participants in the study (including a medical doctor (OB-GYN) who observed Khafd in his Bohra patients) reported that both Types 1a and 1b (partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or clitoral hood) are commonly practiced with very few cases of Type 4 FGM/C (p. 2).
It seems there is some other pressure tactics being utilised. - Md iet ( talk) 04:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
I added something that compared the ethics of male genital cutting (MGC) to female genital cutting (FGC) in the comparison with other procedures section, and was reverted with this explanation: "this is a long article about a procedure on females and it does not seem WP:DUE to mention views on male circumcision". First of all, what I wrote was only a sentence long. Furthermore, why can we compare FGC to rhinoplasty, breast enhancement, intersex genital mutilation, dieting, and body shaping, but not MGC? Also, it seems a little WP:POV to include a sentence that is pro-FGC/MGC, but not a source that is anti-FGC/MGC. Prcc27 ( talk) 22:15, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
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change Female Genital Mutilation to Circumcision (female) Beepilicious ( talk) 02:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
In the article, I cannot find the words ′voluntary′ or ′involuntary′ at all. These two words are relevant to the debate concerning the legality and morality of FGM. So why not? VarunSoon ( talk) 06:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Please ref edit difference [14]. There is exclusive specific mention of one community in reference to region covering complete India. When issue has religious link of 12th century old community tradition, how can one bifurcated specific community which came in existence in 16th century is specially targeted on a sensible article of responsible world renowned encyclopedia.
The correction is done with proper citation, there is unexplained deletion. Comments invited to sort out the issue. Md iet ( talk) 10:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
There are other Taiyabi Bohra groups claiming to be headed by rightful Dai are very much in existence in India. In 1591 when Dawoodi Bohra sect came into existence, Sulaymani Bohra dai Syedna Sulayman bin Hassan claimed in in Akbar’s royal court that “he was the rightful Dai”. [1] There was one more bifurcation in taiyabi in 1621Ad, when Alavi Bohras Dai Syedna Ali bin Ibrahim claimed of “true successor of his grandfather”. [2]
The statement stating: "...reports suggest that FGM is also practiced ...., by the Dawoodi Bohra in India.", here in the article categorized as of "highly sensible" definitely single out a small sect. When the issue is having vast religious base involving all the Muslim communities in large, there are ample possibilities that this faith based practice may be continuing in many more and it has to be tackled in such a fashion that solution can be found to make people more aware and people should become safe. Targeted statement makes people defensive and delay proper solutions. Md iet ( talk) 03:53, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
A group of people were convicted of FGM NSW Australia. However recently, all 3 were acquitted because the 'khatna' procedure they carried out did not equate to FGM. This case has been reported here: https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/5b68d25ce4b0b9ab4020e71c%7Cpublisher=New http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-11/genital-mutilation-convictions-overturned/10108106 https://femalecircumcision.org/not-a-mutilation/ I will add the information as a {{ efn}} in the article. Muffizainu ( talk) 11:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
https://www.livelaw.in/female-genital-mutilation-dr-singhvi-objects-the-illusory-classification-between-male-and-female-circumcision/ http://www.indialegallive.com/constitutional-law-news/supreme-court-news/khatna-not-construed-female-genital-mutilation-technically-no-mutilation-sc-told-53660
![]() | The
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When I was seven years old and living in Karachi, Pakistan, my mother took me to the pediatrician. While I sat on a stool, polishing imaginary dirt off the buckles on my Mary Janes, my mother quietly asked if it was time for me to get the bug removed. According to my mother, a bug was growing in an egg down there-- her language, not mine-- and that it would hatch and eventually crawl to my brain unless we removed it, she said. My pediatrician agreed. It was time to see the woman who removes the bug. ... [Afterwards], [f]or two days, I wore what I can only describe as a big-girl diaper, wet with blood. Peeing was so painful that I tried to last for hours without going, until my mother explained that I could give myself an infection. ...
[Years later], I visited a doctor who specialized in victims of FGM. ... This doctor, unlike so many of the gynecologists I'd seen before, didn't wince when she peered between my legs. She didn't over-apologize or pat my knees. She didn't murmur in a hushed whisper, like the medical resident at Columbia, "oh, bless your dear heart." Instead, she silently examined me. She'd heard of the religious sect that I belong to and had examined other girls like me.
She explained that because the cutting is done in the living room without proper medical equipment, for girls in my sect, the results varied. Some of the girls can easily go on to have great sex lives. But for me, the main difference was in the extensive scar tissue and the nerve damage. ... She told me what I'd long suspected. I'd probably never have a wonderful, easy, uncomplicated sex life. Instead, sex for me would likely involve many careful conversations with my partner, a sex therapist, and a willingness to trust a human beyond what I could imagine." [16]
This is my understanding of the Australian case. The defendants were charged with performing khatna. The defence said: "Our clients did not perform khatna. They performed only 'symbolic khatna'". This was not accepted at trial, either because not true, or because, if true, it was still FGM. It was accepted by the appeal court, which told the government: "If you want your legislation to cover "symbolic khatna" too, you'll have to amend it.
Which part of this, if any, have I misunderstood (succinctly, please)? SarahSV (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
Hi Md iet, your edit about the Musta'li would need reliable sources (RS). Even with sources that would be too much about this one group, but to mention them at all would need some RS. SarahSV (talk) 17:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
[3]; Hindustan Times: Female Genital Mutilation debate puts Bohra women on opposite sides
[4]; newsin.asia: female-circumcision-communities-call-religious-freedom-upheld.
Hope these would be good.-- Md iet ( talk) 04:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Book:Female "circumcision" in Africa: Culture, Controversy, and Change; edited by: Bettina Shell-Duncan, Ylva Hernlund [8].| Quotes: “...we agree that term’ mutilation ‘denotes condemnation and will use FGM in context of discourses employing that term....In all other context we will instead use ‘female genital cutting' or female 'circumcision’.” (Ch.1, page:6,7)... Editors were ‘stuck by different perspectives…’ and ‘inspired them’ to examine the topic in a multidisciplinary manner…”. (preface page vii)
This RS seems to be taken care of different perspectives and examined the issue from all the required angles. There finding to use terms 'circumscion' or FGM need attention.-- Md iet ( talk) 15:13, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I had posted this heading and information, and SlimVirgin had deleted it based on the claim of RS. The information I posted was as follows: Lack of evidence of complications or harm for Type 1a Although there are many studies proving evidence of harm from FGM, the evidence provided on harm for FGM is related to Type 1b, 2 & 3, and not type 1a and type 4.[63] WHO confirms they have no recorded clinical evidence of harm against the Type 1a.[75] [76] When specifically asked, the "WHO said it does not compile individual reports but rather looks at the body of evidence from scientific literature to develop its positions about health risks and the public health and human rights significance of the practice", "and within those reports there was no scientific study to prove that Type 1a has caused any clinical harm".[75] The Type 1a procedure is harmless, which is similar to ear piercing which is done purely for cosmetic reasons.[77]
I would like to re-post the information but looking for a re-draft to better the text. It is very important that Type 1a female circumcisioon is differentiated from the other methods, and, most importantly, clearly mention that till date, there is no evidence that Type 1a has caused any form of harm. All the evidence provided by the WHO against FGM relates to procedures other than Type 1a. Please help improve the article. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:27, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
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Following my post in March that I was adding wikicite to UN reports, [9] I'm considering again changing the citation style to {{ sfn}} for journal articles or books that are used repeatedly with different page numbers. I'm not certain yet which sources to do it for, or even whether to go ahead, but I'd like to experiment, so I'm checking here, per WP:CITEVAR, in case there are objections. SarahSV (talk) 00:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
In this edit, Wikimandia changed
to
That changed the article from permalink to permalink. I suppose there is some technical benefit for the double cropping (more focused on the face) but the original seems more appropriate here. Johnuniq ( talk) 04:13, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The sentence that mentions that since Female Circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran - therefore it is unIslamic - is a misleading statement. This is because MOST of the Islamic practices follolwed by the Muslims is NOT mentioned in the Quran, rather, it is mentioned in the traditions of the Prophet Muhhammed. Thus I removed it. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:32, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
I also suggest removing the following sentence "but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion", because only about 3 of the 100s of sources talk about "chastity", all the other versions mention it is done to increase sexual pleasure between male and female couples. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you've not explained your reason for revert. In my explanation I explained 1) The idea that since FC is not mentioned in the Quran and therefore un-Islamic isn't correct, because most Islamic practices are not mentioned in the Quran, including Male circumcision. Islamic practices and the details on how it should be done are found in the traditions of the Prophet Mohammed. So, that sentence in itself is wrong and misleading. You may refer to (Arora KS, Jacobs AJ. Female genital alteration: a compromise solution. Journal of Medical Ethics 2016), where they say: "It is no more possible to define Islam within the four corners of the Quran than to define Christianity (which includes traditions ranging from Presbyterian to Pentecostal to Greek Orthodoxy) solely from a reading of the Bible. Rather, the content of religious belief and practice are guided by interpretive texts and traditions. Thus, many Muslim scholars classify Female Genital Alteration (FGA) as ‘Sunnah’ or practice established by the Prophet Muhammad. Though not prescribed explicitly in the Quran, the practice thus is religiously virtuous. In fact, the colloquial term for FGA procedures in Arabic refers to a ritual state of purity.” For those who aren't aware, even simple "Islamic" practices like praying 5 times a day, or how to pray or fast, are not mentioned in the Quran - the details are found in the traditions and narrations of the Prophet Mohammed. 2) I also cited information that FC was deemed obligatory by certain sects in Islam namely the Shaafi'i and Hanbali, you can view the information here: /info/en/?search=Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation
That is why I wrote "In Islam, Type 1a female circumcision is praised in several hadith (sayings attributed to Muhammad) as noble, sunnah (tradition), or waajib (mandatory) - based on the various Sunni Islam & Shia Islam traditions" 3) I didn't make this edit, but I did suggest it, that "the following sentence "but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion", because only about 3 of the 100s of sources talk about "chastity", all the other versions mention it is done to increase sexual pleasure between male and female couples. Thus, you haven't explained on what basis you reverted the edits. I request a vote from editors to confirm my findings as well. Muffizainu ( talk) 07:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Jim1138 & SlimVirgin - I am already discussing this and I think this requires a response/counter response. Because when some one reverts, it is their duty to explain their reverts and engage in discussion on talk page as well. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Johnuniq I think you are mistaken or have misunderstood what I have said. 1) About Female Circumcision not in the Quran. I have cited above reliable sources WP:RS "Journal of Medical Ethics 2016" above, and in that they say that just because it's not in the Quran doesn't negate the fact that it is an integral path of the Islamic tradition. To add to that, I was just explaining that MOST Islamic practices are NOT in the Quran - for example, Male Circumcision, so, the fact that it's not in the Quran doesn't negate the fact that it is an Islamic tradition. If you want more citiations, then please view this link: /info/en/?search=Khitan_(circumcision) 2) About Azhar, I will add some information to the article to show that even within Al-Azhar there are many positions. The rulings Azhar or UNICED aren't absolutist, and have changed over time and highly contested. 3) Type 1a not harmful: You answered your own question. If the WHO fact sheet says that Type 1a is "very rare" and usually Type 1b, that proves that we aren't talking about Type 1b, and that isn't a matter of contention, and they are 2 different prodecures. Hence, I stand by the statement that Type 1a isn't Type 1b, rare or not, and if you disagree, then I request you to bring me ONE citation that clearly mentions the harm in Type 1a (not 1b or above). Muffizainu ( talk) 04:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin Thank you for the information on the Bohra community, but my and talk messages haven't been about that. I have edited or suggested 1) Quran 2) FC in Islam 3) Disagreement about Azhar University Clergy. Yet, you haven't been able to justify your reverts. Secondly, the citations do mention clitoris (Type 1b), although that information, may or may not be correct, I haven't brought it up, and am not making edits in regard to that. What I did say is that Type 1a is different to Type 1b - and whether Type 1b is practiced, it's still not Type 1a - and, if you have ANY information on the harm of Type 1a, then I would like to see it. Thanks Muffizainu ( talk) 06:11, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
SlimVirgin - Can you explain why you have reverted the Azhar University Edits? After citations provided. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
As for Azhar, here's some information to show even the recent disagreements: In 2007, as a response to the statements issued by Mohammed Syyed Tantawi and Ali Jumua wherein the practise of khafd was considered un-Islamic and directed against, a group of jurists and intellectuals re-asserted the 1981 findings of al Shaykh al Azhar Jad al Haq mentioned earlier. https://ar.islamway.net/article/2362/%D8%AC%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B2%D9%87%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%AF-%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%89-%D8%B7%D9%86%D8%B7%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D8%A8%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%85-%D8%AE%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AB Dr Mohammed Musayyar in an interview published by Memri in 2007 says that even though all the four Madhahib have different interpretations in the matter varying from obligatory to sunnah to a noble deed. (2007, May 23). Islamic Scholars on Female Circumcision - YouTube. Retrieved July 22, 2017, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oI0KmUKq8 In an interview published by Memri in 2007, Dr Mohammed Wahdan- a lecturer in Al Azhar University claimed that the origin of female circumcision is since the time of prophet Ibrahim whose first wife Sarrah was jealous of Hajar. Islamic Religious Experts on Female Circumcision - YouTube. N.p., 23 May 2007. Web. 22 July 2017. < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUvrHsPaTSo>. Among the scholars and institutions that support female circumcision according to an article published in 2005 is: Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqr – the former head of the Fatwa Committee in Al-Azhar, and Dar al-Ifta Al-Misriyah. http:// www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/60314/female%20circumcision%20in%20islam (Munajjid, 2014)
Besides Azhar, there are many other Islamic Organizations that have validated the tradition of Female Circumcision. That should also be added. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I have addressed the points raised. The original text said that the Azhar University disagreed with the practice. I provided information that the University itself has disagreements within itself, and thus, that information is irrelavant on the page. I provided the citations. If you want to keep the Azhar disagreeing, then you can also put the citations that Azhar agrees with female circumcicision as well. This will give both sides of the story. If it all it has been I who've been discussing on the talk page, and User Slim Virgin is deleting without providing any justification. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practiced." That is a quote from a UNICEF news report that refers to the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research. A claim that others at the university where the Council is located disagree is not relevant. After-the-fact sources with claims that the purpose of s certain form of FGM is to increase sexual pleasure of the couple cannot be used to balance UNICEF. Johnuniq ( talk) 02:54, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
As for the Islamic position, I have even cited the Journal of Medical Ethics 2016, which you have completely ignored. And the Islamic position cannot be ignored. I will quote it again for your information. (Arora KS, Jacobs AJ. Female genital alteration: a compromise solution. Journal of Medical Ethics 2016), where they say: "It is no more possible to define Islam within the four corners of the Quran than to define Christianity (which includes traditions ranging from Presbyterian to Pentecostal to Greek Orthodoxy) solely from a reading of the Bible. Rather, the content of religious belief and practice are guided by interpretive texts and traditions. Thus, many Muslim scholars classify Female Genital Alteration (FGA) as ‘Sunnah’ or practice established by the Prophet Muhammad. Though not prescribed explicitly in the Quran, the practice thus is religiously virtuous. In fact, the colloquial term for FGA procedures in Arabic refers to a ritual state of purity.” Muffizainu ( talk) 06:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I am not as proficient with you with wikipedia talkpage formatting, I'm learning but I will try to format it better. It does say it's a guideline not a policy - still I know it makes things easier and I will try to follow as closely. Feel free to point out if I make a mistake as we are all volunteers here and no one is an expert. Secondly, I'm not pushing my POV. I am seeking taklpage consensus. If I was pushing my POV, I would have still been reverting. So please assume good faith which is too a wikipedia recommendation. I did not go directly to RSN noticeboard because talk page is the first place to discuss the dispute. It is incorrect to say discuss there, not here. Now that we have had an initial discussion, I will be happy to take it to RSN if you dont agree and I will follow all proper channels as I dont want to break any rules. Furthermore, if you think there's no consensus on my edits, I seek to change that consensus because this consensus is between just the three of us as of now and Consensus can change. I will first verify my sources and then involve other neutral editors here on talk page. I do not intend to enforce my own opinion without consensus so nothing to worry about. Muffizainu ( talk) 15:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
...speaking of PTSD:
Noting that I had to use rollback to undo Md iet's edits, because I wasn't able to load the page to do it manually. I tried several times and got a "secure connection failed" message. It's not the first time I've had problems loading this page. SarahSV (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
In the matter a part of discussion is copied here from my talk page to reply here at the concerned page:
"...To help aware the menace of doing FGM using whatever methods available and making the life of innocents venerable, a better approach is required to control the dangerous practice.-- Md iet ( talk) 06:28, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
All the source must comply with WP:MEDRS seems a very harsh condition, when the issue is of so grave nature and multi aspects including religious angle affecting faith of a person is involved.
We need to have thorough discussion on matter, I suppose.-- Md iet ( talk) 12:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I think as per WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:OM, the currently external images should be directly included in the article, if the image license does not allow it, another image should be chosen. Besides some of them are returning 403 errors. Franciscouzo ( talk) 18:34, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
FGM is such an issue which is affecting life of many innocents in the name of faith. This issue need a complete new approach to handle it. In the name of faith, religion and nonsense issues politics is played and there is heavy loss to human beings. FGM is also a similar faith issue, which is playing menace.
Definitely FGM can be termed as cruelty to children, but it is harming them more if practice is not made under control and to perform FGM non scientific means are used. This issue need an open mind thorough discussion on subject making all the issues very clear to the communities where it is in practice.
There are no indication of effect of various control being used to abolish the practice. Legislation will never give any full proof solution in the matter of faith and people may find some other means , which may harm more. This is perfectly position on FGM.
When practice is legally acceptable for male with all surgical procedure used on children, as it is proven to be advantageous. Although many research is done on FGM, there are always some scope left when we see that even new elements and planets are discovered now and then. Restricting non MEDRS sources is restricting same as restricting thoughts and discussions, then how can further research can be initiated.
Our main aim should be to restrict dangerous practice in the way it is done, whatever approach we take. Wikipedian's views on this serious subject are welcome.-- Md iet ( talk) 14:07, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
"Despite 30 years of advocacy, the prevalence of nontherapeutic female genital alteration (FGA) in minors is stable in many countries. Educational efforts have minimally changed the prevalence of this procedure in regions where it has been widely practiced. In order to better protect female children from the serious and longterm harms of some types of non-therapeutic FGA, we must adopt a more nuanced position that acknowledges a wide spectrum of procedures that alter female genitalia. We offer a revised categorisation for nontherapeutic FGA that groups procedures by effect and not by process. Acceptance of de minimis procedures that generally do not carry long-term medical risks is culturally sensitive, does not discriminate on the basis of gender, and does not violate human rights. More morbid procedures should not be performed. However, accepting de minimis non-therapeutic f FGA procedures enhances the effort of compassionate practitioners searching for a compromise position that respects cultural differences but protects the health of their patients." ...Paper: "Female genital alteration: a compromise solution" by: Kavita Shah Arora,1,2 Allan J Jacobs3 [10].
This paper is very reliable and can be a guide line toward protecting innocent victims. Editors requested to put forward their views on inclusion of the ideas in this feature Article. -- Md iet ( talk) 14:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Faith religion is a such issue which better can be resolved through guiding the affected through proper channels. Women are affected because of this and they only are most rigid on following the faith. Men concerned many times even do not know of the existence of the practice in their family.-- Md iet ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
FGM is such an issue which is affecting life of many innocents in the name of faith. This issue need a complete new approach to handle it. In the name of faith, religion and nonsense issues politics is played and there is heavy loss to human beings. FGM is also a similar faith issue, which is playing menace.
Definitely FGM can be termed as cruelty to children, but it is harming them more if practice is not made under control and to perform FGM non scientific means are used. This issue need an open mind thorough discussion on subject making all the issues very clear to the communities where it is in practice.
There are no indication of effect of various control being used to abolish the practice. Legislation will never give any full proof solution in the matter of faith and people may find some other means , which may harm more. This is perfectly position on FGM.
When practice is legally acceptable for male with all surgical procedure used on children, as it is proven to be advantageous. Although many research is done on FGM, there are always some scope left when we see that even new elements and planets are discovered now and then. Restricting non MEDRS sources is restricting same as restricting thoughts and discussions, then how can further research can be initiated.
Our main aim should be to restrict dangerous practice in the way it is done, whatever approach we take. Wikipedian's views on this serious subject are welcome.-- Md iet ( talk) 14:07, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
"Despite 30 years of advocacy, the prevalence of nontherapeutic female genital alteration (FGA) in minors is stable in many countries. Educational efforts have minimally changed the prevalence of this procedure in regions where it has been widely practiced. In order to better protect female children from the serious and longterm harms of some types of non-therapeutic FGA, we must adopt a more nuanced position that acknowledges a wide spectrum of procedures that alter female genitalia. We offer a revised categorisation for nontherapeutic FGA that groups procedures by effect and not by process. Acceptance of de minimis procedures that generally do not carry long-term medical risks is culturally sensitive, does not discriminate on the basis of gender, and does not violate human rights. More morbid procedures should not be performed. However, accepting de minimis non-therapeutic f FGA procedures enhances the effort of compassionate practitioners searching for a compromise position that respects cultural differences but protects the health of their patients." ...Paper: "Female genital alteration: a compromise solution" by: Kavita Shah Arora,1,2 Allan J Jacobs3 [11].
This paper is very reliable and can be a guide line toward protecting innocent victims. Editors requested to put forward their views on inclusion of the ideas in this feature Article. -- Md iet ( talk) 14:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Further suggestion to tackle the issues pointed above is requested.-- Md iet ( talk) 03:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
References
1. The page "Female Circumcision" redirects to the FGM page. The problem with this redirecting is that it equates Female Circumcision = FGM. This is incorrect. Female Circumcision is a name given to a procedure/practice, and FGM is an umbrella term by the WHO, given for many (about 6) different procedure/practice from which female circumcision is one of them. Just like piercing is also a practice that comes under the FGM umbrella term. Therefore, Female Circumsiion ⊆ FGM (FC is a subset of FGM), not Female Circumcision = FGM.
2. This is further established by the WHO themselves who refer to Type 1a as female "circumcision" on page 2 of . Reference: http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/management-health-complications-fgm/en/ WHO guidelines on the management of health complications from female genital mutilation 3. Therefore, in order to be clear, I propose having a short description of "female circumcision", describing Type 1a clitoral hood procedure as per the WHO document. And then mention that the WHO considers this FGM. Below this, have a "see more" tab below it then linking it to the FGM page.
Muffizainu ( talk) 06:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Johnuniq How is it one topic? When there are two terms?
FGM and Female Circumcision. One is a practice, and one is a term given to a collection of practices. And that is why the redirecting is problematic.
[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]]What exactly is your argument here? The FGM article uses a the term "FGM", solely because it was coined by the WHO. And here, i'm providing a citation that the WHO themselves called Type 1a "female circumcision". So what more information do you need? If it wasn't for the WHO, you wouldn't have the term "FGM".
If you're looking for more sources, look no further that the Britanica Dictionary. It calls the Islamic practice of Type 1a "FEMALE CIRCUMCISION"
So, you have the WHO and a Dictionary statement.
Hence, what I propose is not to do a blanket re-directing. First clarify the term "Female Circumcision" according to the WHO guidelines and dictionary. They say that the WHO considers it amoungst one of the practices of FGM, and then have a "See more" tag to the FGM page. Muffizainu ( talk) 14:16, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
1) If you agree that "female circumcision" is a category or type of practice, then why shouldn't it have a separate page to describe the various definitions of the term "female circumcision" by various authorities, and also include the WHO's definition if you want - as one of those defintions. Everything doesn't need to revolve solely around the WHO's stance.
2) The term "FGM" was coined by the WHO, so, the FGM page can be limited to the WHO's stance on the subject.
Muffizainu ( talk) 06:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)The first sentence of the article is incorrect because it says FGM is "also known as" female circumcision. FGM is an umbrella term by the WHO, where as FC is one practice that falls under the WHO's coined term. I have added a citation needed tag to confirm the defintion of FGM = FC. If not then then I propose it should be reworded. Muffizainu ( talk) 06:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
SlimVirginTerminology section doesn't refer to how FGM is also known as female circumcision. Please TALK or add suitable reference. You may want to refer to this article for a better idea on the term: https://www.britannica.com/topic/female-genital-cutting Muffizainu ( talk) 09:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Though supporters of Khafd in India claim Bohras only practice Type 1a (removal of clitoral hood only) and Type 4 FGM/C (pricking, piercing, cauterization), participants in the study (including a medical doctor (OB-GYN) who observed Khafd in his Bohra patients) reported that both Types 1a and 1b (partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or clitoral hood) are commonly practiced with very few cases of Type 4 FGM/C (p. 2).
It seems there is some other pressure tactics being utilised. - Md iet ( talk) 04:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
I added something that compared the ethics of male genital cutting (MGC) to female genital cutting (FGC) in the comparison with other procedures section, and was reverted with this explanation: "this is a long article about a procedure on females and it does not seem WP:DUE to mention views on male circumcision". First of all, what I wrote was only a sentence long. Furthermore, why can we compare FGC to rhinoplasty, breast enhancement, intersex genital mutilation, dieting, and body shaping, but not MGC? Also, it seems a little WP:POV to include a sentence that is pro-FGC/MGC, but not a source that is anti-FGC/MGC. Prcc27 ( talk) 22:15, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
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change Female Genital Mutilation to Circumcision (female) Beepilicious ( talk) 02:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
In the article, I cannot find the words ′voluntary′ or ′involuntary′ at all. These two words are relevant to the debate concerning the legality and morality of FGM. So why not? VarunSoon ( talk) 06:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Please ref edit difference [14]. There is exclusive specific mention of one community in reference to region covering complete India. When issue has religious link of 12th century old community tradition, how can one bifurcated specific community which came in existence in 16th century is specially targeted on a sensible article of responsible world renowned encyclopedia.
The correction is done with proper citation, there is unexplained deletion. Comments invited to sort out the issue. Md iet ( talk) 10:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
There are other Taiyabi Bohra groups claiming to be headed by rightful Dai are very much in existence in India. In 1591 when Dawoodi Bohra sect came into existence, Sulaymani Bohra dai Syedna Sulayman bin Hassan claimed in in Akbar’s royal court that “he was the rightful Dai”. [1] There was one more bifurcation in taiyabi in 1621Ad, when Alavi Bohras Dai Syedna Ali bin Ibrahim claimed of “true successor of his grandfather”. [2]
The statement stating: "...reports suggest that FGM is also practiced ...., by the Dawoodi Bohra in India.", here in the article categorized as of "highly sensible" definitely single out a small sect. When the issue is having vast religious base involving all the Muslim communities in large, there are ample possibilities that this faith based practice may be continuing in many more and it has to be tackled in such a fashion that solution can be found to make people more aware and people should become safe. Targeted statement makes people defensive and delay proper solutions. Md iet ( talk) 03:53, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
A group of people were convicted of FGM NSW Australia. However recently, all 3 were acquitted because the 'khatna' procedure they carried out did not equate to FGM. This case has been reported here: https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/5b68d25ce4b0b9ab4020e71c%7Cpublisher=New http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-11/genital-mutilation-convictions-overturned/10108106 https://femalecircumcision.org/not-a-mutilation/ I will add the information as a {{ efn}} in the article. Muffizainu ( talk) 11:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
https://www.livelaw.in/female-genital-mutilation-dr-singhvi-objects-the-illusory-classification-between-male-and-female-circumcision/ http://www.indialegallive.com/constitutional-law-news/supreme-court-news/khatna-not-construed-female-genital-mutilation-technically-no-mutilation-sc-told-53660
![]() | The
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disputed. |
When I was seven years old and living in Karachi, Pakistan, my mother took me to the pediatrician. While I sat on a stool, polishing imaginary dirt off the buckles on my Mary Janes, my mother quietly asked if it was time for me to get the bug removed. According to my mother, a bug was growing in an egg down there-- her language, not mine-- and that it would hatch and eventually crawl to my brain unless we removed it, she said. My pediatrician agreed. It was time to see the woman who removes the bug. ... [Afterwards], [f]or two days, I wore what I can only describe as a big-girl diaper, wet with blood. Peeing was so painful that I tried to last for hours without going, until my mother explained that I could give myself an infection. ...
[Years later], I visited a doctor who specialized in victims of FGM. ... This doctor, unlike so many of the gynecologists I'd seen before, didn't wince when she peered between my legs. She didn't over-apologize or pat my knees. She didn't murmur in a hushed whisper, like the medical resident at Columbia, "oh, bless your dear heart." Instead, she silently examined me. She'd heard of the religious sect that I belong to and had examined other girls like me.
She explained that because the cutting is done in the living room without proper medical equipment, for girls in my sect, the results varied. Some of the girls can easily go on to have great sex lives. But for me, the main difference was in the extensive scar tissue and the nerve damage. ... She told me what I'd long suspected. I'd probably never have a wonderful, easy, uncomplicated sex life. Instead, sex for me would likely involve many careful conversations with my partner, a sex therapist, and a willingness to trust a human beyond what I could imagine." [16]
This is my understanding of the Australian case. The defendants were charged with performing khatna. The defence said: "Our clients did not perform khatna. They performed only 'symbolic khatna'". This was not accepted at trial, either because not true, or because, if true, it was still FGM. It was accepted by the appeal court, which told the government: "If you want your legislation to cover "symbolic khatna" too, you'll have to amend it.
Which part of this, if any, have I misunderstood (succinctly, please)? SarahSV (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2018 (UTC)