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The article fails to clearly specify how FGC affects the female orgasm which I believe is the crux of the matter. Simply put: can a woman who has had FGC achieve an orgasm?
The article also incorrectly states men cannot orgasm without a penis. One of the greatest male erogenous zones is in the anus. Orgasm can be reached without penile stimulation- a friend of mine who was born intersex, and whose penis is surgically constructed and non-functional, can testify to this.
This page has no mention of voluntary instances of the more extreme forms of genital cutting, such as this one, which could also serve as illustration on a subpage, if use rights could be obtained.
This is sometimes practiced in BDSM contexts. Zuiram 05:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems quite clear that early in the Twentieth Century, clitoridotomy and other genital modifications were promoted as a way of stopping masturbation. Later, when the fear of masturbation was discredited, those promoting clitoridotomy advocated it as a way of enhancing sexual sensitivity. For some reason this simple statement of fact keeps being removed. I cannot see the problem with it. I would appreciate it if those who believe that it is unacceptable would explain their position. Michael Glass 08:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean by the fallacy of the striking instance? I could not find such thing mentioned in lists of logical fallacies. If you mean that one of the reasons given for genital modification of women in the early Twentieth Century was to stop masturbation, then why not make that small change? Then we could both look for more evidence and document it. For instance, there is this statement by a Dr Dawson, quoted in Alex Comfort's 'The Anxiety Makers,' Panther Edition, London, 1968, page 113-114:
However, though Dr Dawson blamed the clitoris and its hood for all manner of ills, Comfort has a much more striking instance. He says:
Or is this horror story too striking an instance, and therefore it must be excised? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, in a time when masturbation was feared it is not surprising that those in favour of genital modification would promote it to discourage masturbation. Nor is it surprising that in a time when sexual expression is accepted that genital modification should be promoted as something to enhance sexual feeling. Why does this plain piece of common sense strike you as being 'original research'? Since when did it need original research to realise that advertising promotes things? Since when did a simple observation become a 'thesis'? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, there is nothing bizarre or novel in the idea that people publicise their ideas. It is not conspiracy theorising to point out that people publicise their ideas. You have publicised your ideas and so have I. Publicising ideas is what people do all the time. Please stop the nonsense about conspiracy theories. Michael Glass 13:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Further reading shows that two papers from 1958 and 1959 advocate circumcision to enhance sexual pleasure, one of which you cited in support of your hypothesis! It is only by focusing on this one reason and ignoring any others given that your hypothesis makes the slightest bit of sense.
I have added this information to the article accordingly. - Jakew 14:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I have also added some information. I hope that it will be respected and not cut. Showing that ideas in society change does not involve alleging a conspiracy, something that I never did. Michael Glass 21:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The above statements are a misrepresentation of what I wrote. The article clearly states that controlling masturbation was ONE of the motives of the circumcisers of women in the early Twentieth Century. It does not imply that this was the only argument used. I cannot understand how anyone can argue that the simple word 'now' implies such a thing, especially as other arguments were clearly spelled out in the two previous paragraphs.
As for the argument about original research I believe that this is being used as a bludgeon to suppress any idea that does not fit into a narrow mindset. When I said that female circumcision was used to suppress masturbation and its decline was related to the decline in the fear of masturbation, the objection was that this was a novel theory and was therefore 'original research'. When I said that the two things happened at the same time the censorship shears came out again, with the insulting charge that it was sneaky.
I have now added more information, including information that shows that the fear of masturbation in the medical profession declined in the latter Twentieth Century. I would appreciate it if Jayig and Jake would stop their ad hominem attacks and their use of Wiki policy as a bludgeon to suppress this point. Michael Glass 14:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I like the rewording. As for my first draft (above) I agree that the wording could be improved. However, the basic point remains true that doctors do respond to social forces in their society. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, you have my apology. It was Jayig who made the comments that I objected to. It wasn't you and I am sorry that I wrote that. please see below. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, first of all I object to your description of one of my edits as 'sneaky'. I don't agree that my additions were 'original research' any more than the boy who saw that the emperor had no clothes was doing original research. Nevertheless, I have tried to change the wording to get over the objections that you and Jake expressed. The result: you accuse me of being sneaky.
Secondly, Jayig, I object strongly to your comments at [1] Perhaps you should consider the Wiki policy of politeness to other users. Perhaps you should consider trying to correspond with me instead of attacking me on someone else's talk page. Please note that I have cited a source, first of all from Wikipedia and then from elsewhere. Please note that I have modified my contribution in response to your cry of 'no original research. Finally, I value the ideal of a neutral point of view, even though one person's idea of neutrality is often another person's idea of bias. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I would like to give my opinion here. I think circumcision and it's ilk are all wrong, whether you're a man or a woman. Sex is natural. Masturbation, however, causes perversions, homosexuality, lesbianism, bestiality, rape etc.... That's my original research for today. I think this makes some interesting points: [2] 68.114.97.127 04:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Michael, is it really necessary to go into such extraordinary detail about what is contained within this website? To do so seems to interrupt the flow of the article, without adding much information that is germane to the subject. - Jakew 13:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The Hoodectomy page is being used as an authority. As such, it deserves very close scrutiny to show where it is coming from and where it is going to. For instance, it is significant that it has links to Circlist and Bmezine as well as medical articles. Michael Glass 14:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, your wording here is not as clear as usual. Perhaps you were writing in haste. While I take your point about the word 'authority' it is certinly being used as a source of information about a procedure that is controversial if not illegal, in many jurisdictions. Therefore it deserves very close scrutiny. No value judgment is expressed or implied in the passage. It is up to the reader to determine what to think of the links. Information about them will help the reader to make up his or her mind. Michael Glass 15:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that it is SOOO wrong. Who has the right to basically torture women??? Why do women have to get the sexual pleasure taken away but not the men? Women are equal with men. I think its wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.193.29 ( talk) 21:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC) The changes that have been made to the passage are an improvement. I have a few other changes in mind. I think it serves a useful purpose for the Wiki reader to know the names of the organisations that are in favour of this procedure. Michael Glass 08:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
This part of the article contains much unsubstantiated information. I believe that it should he linked to credible information or the unsubstantiated information should be removed. Michael Glass 08:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Michael, could you find another source for the following text: "(Sunna circumcision, named after one of the Islamic traditions, may or may not involve the removal of part of the clitoris as well as the prepuce [3].)"
The problem is that the source cited doesn't mention Sunna circumcision at all. Also, the sentence would be better moved to the following paragraph, which discusses the relationship of clitoridotomy to other descriptions (eg type 1). I feel that the introductory paragraph should focus on the heading itself, rather than side issues. Jakew 12:43, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
This isn't an issue of neutrality - circumcission is a neutral word to many. This isn't an issue of fair treatment - if it was, the opinions of sufferers would determine the word used and would likely be mutilation. This is an issue of trying to whitewash an issue by using an innocuous name.
Circumcision is an accepted term - by everyone who isn't trying to invent new euphamisms - for lopping off parts of the genitals for medically unsound, yet generally harmless reasons. It's definite POV to insist on another word for what is already well described.
The rationality for this argument is that there are three groups, pro, neutral, and anti, and that all three must agree (or equally disagree) before something is POV free. This is a logically falacy - the truth in an issue isn't distributed directly between the opinions of all involved, nor is it a stretchy friendly thing that can be manipulated until everyone is happy.
Furthermore, neutrality is in not misrepresenting facts, nor providing an unfairly biased report. In everything there is some bias - nobody writes NPOV articles about belly parasites - we generally are safe to assume that because they are harmful and painful, they are a bad thing. Nobody has to write "the widely misunderstood stomach parasite ..." Ditto, I say, with genital mutilation.
Simply because this is a ritual that many are attached to, the rest of the world is supposed to act as if it's as medically sound as an appendectomy, just to avoid casting aspersions on someone who wants practice it on their daughter's body. Why don't we call the page "Candy"? Everyone loves Candy, especially little children!
Call the article female circumcision. It's what *everyone* else calls it. Nobody is going to the UNFPA to find out the politically correct terms before trying to find the wikipedia article.
I have noticed in the literature that there are three different ways of describing the procedures done on women's genitals:
I believe that there are significant problems with using the term 'Female Circumcision'
For all these reasons I would suggest that we look at 'Female Genital Cutting' as a preferable title.
What do others think? Michael Glass 02:21, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Jake. I think the following passages from the UNFPA are worth pondering:
As you said, this document confirms my contention that the term FGM is used by opponents of the practice and that FGC is more neutral. The fact that 'female circumcision' is used by some to condemn male circumcision and by others to justify female genital cutting is another strike against it. However, the greatest objection is its tendency to confuse the issues involved. Michael Glass 14:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that 'female circumcision' devalues 'male circumcision' Jenchurch
For all these reasons I would suggest that we look at 'Female Genital Cutting' as a preferable title.
I of course had to throw in my two cents:
I think that the term circumcision in general is a euphemism whether used to describe a procedure done to boys or girls. In both cases the term is primarily used by those in favour of it. It is very similiar to an argument recently waged on the circumcision page about the use of the term uncircumcised vs. intact. A large number of people, including many circumcisionists favoured the term uncircumcised while a large minority were split between intact and any other term. Then of course the revelation surfaced that uncircumcised itself as defined by presumably neutral dictionary.com (does anyone care to argue that dictionary.com is an anti-circumcision organization) as a religious term meaning heathen -- obviously a word loaded with negative conntations. Ironically those in favour of the term uncircumcised had been using the argument that intact was loaded, but, to my knowledge couldn't provide anywhere near as compelling evidence to support it. Ever since there has been an onslaught of people with very sketchy arguments trying to have the section about the term uncircumcised = heathen removed, probably in an attempt to shield the term from critism for fear that intact will prevail. My point? The terms are all very loaded and vary widely depending on perspective, so please, if you feel the term is loaded, you must provide rock solid information to support that conclusion. Even if you do be prepared to be challenged. I do not in the end care which term is adopted, but I do hope there is consistency been the terms used for males and females so that we can all see that mutilation of the genitals is not limited to one sex and please don't try to make it a special case when done to one sex or the other. Mutilation is mutilation. Sirkumsize 12:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
What we need to do here is have a vote. Whether people like it or not, both terms are POV in one way or another. I propose changing this article's name back to Female circumcision, simply because this is the most common term used. You can do a simple Yahoo! search to prove this...I type in "Female circumcision" and I recieve 1,390,000 hits. I type in "Female genital cutting" and I get 402,000 hits. As you can see, the former term is used almost three times more than the latter term. Both mean the same thing, both are POV. We need to change the article back to the name most commonly used. -- Mad Max 20:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Mutilation is more accurate, & it's the accepted term used by many in the international & national medical, legal & human rights fields. It is, from talking with friends, a dangerous & sometimes lethal mutilation. dick 21:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"parents understandably resent the suggestion that they are “mutilating” their daughters" - some parents would resent the suggestion that they traditionally sell their daughters into sexual slavery but this is a fact. -- Vladko 15:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Vladko: apples and oranges. One is objective fact, as you correctly point out (did they or did they not sell the child into slavery? yes or no?). The other is a cultural/subjective value judgement: was that genital modification a mutilation or an enhancement? Different people, in different cultural environments, will answer differently. That the genitals are modified by FGC is a fact, and not in question; the questionable part (the non-factual part) has to do with the aesthetic or other value of said modification. Different strokes for different folks. See comments directly below. See also the Schweder article referenced and excerpted in the section far below. See also the Boddy book referenced and excerpted in the section far below (near bottom of this page as of mid-July 2007). -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "Mutilation":
The word "mutilation" can be, and often is, based on culturally-constructed value judgement. The fancy keloidal scars of some traditional african cultures, for example, might be called "mutilations" by some, but they are decorative and attractive to others, namely those who have them and create them. Voluntary limb amputations might be considered mutilations by most people, but I gather that there are those who have them and want them. So, who is to say? The extremity of something like voluntary amputation (!) leads me to consider that maybe my phrase "often is", in the first sentence, is too cautious. Maybe "mutilation" is always either culturally constructed, or subjective in origin. In any case, the focus here should be on the procedures which are carried out involuntarily, on young women not yet at the age of consent; this is where there is a human rights issue. I don't see the point of bickering about cultural/subjective aesthetics when they are chosen by individuals of age. I, personally, percieve some body-piercing extremes to be on the borderline of "mutilations", but that doesn't mean that I have the right to insist that they be described as such in an encyclopedia. That's my idiosyncratic reaction, not a representation of objective fact. -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
PS: From the standpoint of the majority of women who seek genital modification (which is the majority of women who have it), it is in no way "mutilation", but rather enhancement or beautification. Those are facts, which you can ascertain by studying the issue (just spend some time reading about it). Those are facts, but they would not justify calling this article "Female Genital Enhancement", since "enhancement" is a cultural/subjective value judgement. The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter. -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the table of links about abuse lodged within the (still of questionable neutrality? do we still need that lable?) FGC and HUman Rights section. If whoever put that in there insists on equating this ritual practice with abuse, you are welcome to insert a non-pov paragraph discussing who believes this and why with citable sources. I will then offer a follow up paragraph with citable sources that do not believe all or even most fgc rituals qualify as abuse. ~FreddieResearch —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freddieresearch ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 27 September 2005
Added "most" because Abusharof's article in Female "Circumcision" in Africa" mentions Sudanese feminists and human rights activists who do not actively oppose the ritual. Moreover, the African Union's human rights charter conspicuously makes no mention of FGC (FGM, whatever) rituals, though it was written after many very public anti-fgc human rights charters were published. ~FreddieResearch
The Canada bit says "Canada, just running the risk of female genital mutilation is already sufficient reason to obtain the political asylum status". Can someone confirm it is all forms of FGC? If so, we should change the wording to FGC for consistency and neutrality purposes. If it only applies to certain forms, this should be clarified and the FGM bit removed... Nil Einne 18:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
There was inconsistency in the statements about Indonesia. In the bit about where it is practices it states " In Indonesia the practice is almost universal among the country's Muslim women; however, in contrast to Africa, almost all are Type I or Type IV (involving a symbolic prick to release blood) procedures". However in the bit about Type II/clitoridectomy it stated: "It is, however, quite common in Indonesia and many countries of sub-Saharan Africa, east-Africa, Egypt, Sudan, and the Arabian Peninsula". I am pretty sure the first statement is correct and so have removed Indonesia from the bit about type II. If you are confident I am incorrect, you're welcome to correct the article but please provide evidence if possible... Nil Einne 18:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
With regards to Malaysia, a few quick searches and from what I recall having read and heard before (I'm Malaysian) female circumscion is quite common among Malaysian Muslims (or at least Malaysian Malay Muslims). As they make up 65% of the population, the 'certain ethnic groups' as per the original article doesn't sound right. I'm not really sure whether the practice is nearly 'universal' among Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, I suspect not so I've also clarified this. If you can find evidence or are resonably it is nearly universal, go ahead and correct it. Nil Einne 18:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I feel the article needs a bit more with regards to the different forms of HGC and human rights etc issues. To my knowledge, most condemations and human rights groups tend to concentrate on ending type II & III but don't care so much about type I and type IV prick type circumscion. While many may still be against I and IV it generally doesn't appear to be a big concern for them. For example, you don't here much of a fuss about FGC in Malaysia and Indonesia. In fact, I don't know if any women's groups from there have ever even had it as part of their agenda (c.f. Africa). The article does mention a bit about the way the different types are treated and regarded but IMHO not enough. Nil Einne 19:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get hold of some? Be good to break up the article, maybe, and clarify things.
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello again, Freddie. I'm curious as to your lower edit in this last change, regarding sexual pleasure. If you're implying that sexual pleasure outside of the clitoris exists and is not impeded by circumcision, you should reread the original paragraph; it specifically refers only to pleasure derived from the external part of the clitoris being lost when that specific portion is amputated. Are you trying to say that a missing appendage can still be stimulated? That's not the appropriate paragraph to make the "other forms of pleasure" argument, imo. Respectfully as ever, - Kasreyn 06:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I was unclear. Research from Carla Obermeyer 2003, Ellen Gruenbaum 200(2?) and the personal experience of Fuambai Ahmadu (sp?), Sierra Leonian anthropologists suggests that the sensitivity of the clitoris (and the clitoris iself) extends far deeper than that which is removed during a 'circumcision operation', even in its most extreme forms. To fully amputate the clitoris one would have to, pardon my bluntness, dig for it. I would be interested in knowing where the sensitive spots are on a male subincised penis. If you want to see something freaky, Kasreyn, check that out! ~FreddieResearch
THE W.H.O. AND U.N. DEFINE THIS ACT AS FGM. IT SHOULD BE CHANGED.
I've gone through the article and standardized all references to "FGC". I don't personally agree with the use of the term, but a majority of editors on this issue seem (to me) to prefer it for reasons of NPOV. As it was, the article was saying FGC in some areas and FGM in others. I'm certainly up for debate on changing it to "circumcision", though, since that's what the article is currently titled. - Kasreyn 02:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Thank you. Research2006 02:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Female Circumcision" is a "vague and misleading expression" (Daly 156) that refers to sunna circumcision, clitoridectomy, and excision and infibulation (or pharaonic circumcision). "Female Circumcision" masks the horrors of this mutilation.
By using the term "circumcision," female genital mutilation (FGM) is equated with male circumcision. Male circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. In male circumcision, the foreskin (or prepuce) is removed from the penis. The circumcised male can usually preform sexual functions normally. He can also orgasm. There are some risks when performing a male circumcision, including but not limited to infection and hemorrhaging. Sunna circumcision is when the clitoral hood (or prepuce) and/or the tip of the clitoris are/is removed. When only the clitoral hood is removed, this is parallel to male circumcision.
Other forms of FGM are not parallel to male circumcision. Clitoridectomy (or excision) is the removal of the entire clitoris. The labia minora and external genitalia may be removed as well. In excision and infibulation a clitoridectomy is performed. The sides of the vulva are then joined. The woman must be cut open for intercourse and childbirth. When the clitoris is removed, the woman is no longer able to orgasm. After infibulation, a woman cannot perform sexual functions normally. Because sex can never be enjoyable for a mutilated woman (and in fact it is usually very painful), it cannot be equated to male circumcision.
Female genital mutilation is the only term that fully encompasses what actually happens. Circumcision excludes excision and infibulation. Female genital cutting excludes infibulation. The term "Female Circumcision" is a misnomer when it refers to anything besides the removal of the clitoral hood. "Female Circumcision" obscures the facts. The term female genital mutilation is a better reflection of the facts.
Work Cited
Daly, Mary. Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism. 2nd ed. Boston, MA: Beacon, 1990. 156.
It seems to me that those who are insistent upon their Non Point of View doctrine have not offered up much aside from that repeated declaration. Those who have petitioned according to their principles or opinions have made a commendable effort and typically eloquent and/or well researched arguments. This uter stagnation of progress in the response to those who have petitioned for action or a change is reprehensible.
pixiequix 11:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
This term is POV and biased. FGM can be said the same. The only between is FGC, so I don't know why this page was moved to Female circumcision. I'll be moving it back and if there's an objection, we can discuss. Redwolf24 ( talk) 04:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the text regarding awareness of the ability to call the police, from the Law and Order bit. It's not sourced and it's not derived from any other information included in the article, so it's clearly original research. Furthermore, I don't know (and doubt the person who added it knows) whether female genital cutting is illegal in NYC or not. Law and Order is set in a fictionalized New York, anyway; the show's writers can alter actual laws as much as they need for plot purposes. - Kasreyn 02:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
There are similarities and differences between "circumcision" and "genital mutilation".
Similarities:
Differences:
I think the above 4 points have been objectively established. I hope they are in the article, or will go into it. -- Uncle Ed 17:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I did read all that. You gloss over clitoris removal; some authorities assert that this affects sexual functioning. You also gloss over ability to have voluntary intercourse; clearly when the labia are sewn shut intercourse becomes difficult or impossible.
Let's try to separate advocaty from objective encyclopedia writing. Say rather that:
By attributing claims to the advocates who make them, we can craft an article which does not take sides, but rather describes the dispute between the sides fairly. -- Uncle Ed 18:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
In and out of the article:
This is good general knowledge, and if it had a source it could stay in the article. Can someone google it or otherwise attribute it as a Point Of View or a solid fact? -- Uncle Ed 23:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I thing they shall be no FGC's.
Gemini531 02:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)Gemini531
I don't care who the hell's opinion is of what; this article is just plain damn WRONG! It says that FGC is the "official" term, well BULLSHIT- the Official term for the act described is termed FGM by the W.H.O. Or is there a new place that claims the authority to set international standards?
This article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5039536.stm is a headline from today's (6/2/2006) BBC News. That means that people all over the world are going to be looking up FGM, and when they come here they are going ton get this FGC bullshit. I petition for this article to go back to it's original title using FGM.
I aplolgize for being crass, but nobody here seems to respect anything I say. And, presuming that this will be ignored also... wtf ever.
pixiequix 16:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I posted the following paragraph to the end of the medical consequences section, to discuss a recent WHO study which I think adds a significant concern to the list of possible medical consequences:
"A recent study by the WHO, published in the Lancet on the 1st of June 2006, has cast doubt on the safety of genital cutting of any kind. This study was conducted on a cohort of 28,393 women attending for singleton delivery at 28 obstetric centres in areas of Burkina Faso, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Senegal and Sudan with a fairly high proportion of mothers having FGC. According to the WHO criteria, all types of FGC were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby (15% for type I, 32% for type 2, and 55% for type 3). Mothers with FGC type III were also found to have 30% more caesarean sections and a 70% increase in postpartum haemorrhage compared to women without FGC. It was estimated from these results and a rough estimate of the proportion of mothers in Africa with different kinds of FGC that in the African context an additional 10 to 20 per thousand babies die during delivery as a result of this process."
Does everyone think this is a fair treatment of the study in question, and fair to include in the article? I've basically given the results as the WHO reported them, except for using "FGC" in place of "FGM"
I have restored all quoted instances of the traditional "Praise Be Upon Him" to this paragraph. Note that including the traditional blessing is inappropriate in original encyclopedic content (as established at article Islam), but when we are directly quoting a source, such as Mr. Abu-Sahlieh, the exact words of the source must be reproduced. This is not showing any POV favoritism towards Islam as the blessing is clearly within quotations and ascribed to Mr. Abu-Sahlieh. Kasreyn 22:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
trying to get a handle on the issue, i wanted to see what this was all about, visually. google images points to a picture on the swedish wikipedia. are we too shy to illustrate, or even diagram? i choose not to fix this myself, as i'm new to wikipedia and insufficiently familiar with community standards.
While reading this section I noticed that in the anecdote about the conversation between Mohammed and Um Habibah the words 'Praise Be Upon Him' are repeated after each mention of Mohammed's name. I understand that this is common in Islamic writings, and that Muslims are obligated to say it after speaking the name, however I am not sure if this gives an impresion of neutrality. I think that a balence between the curent state of this section and a religion-free version could be reached by limiting the phrase 'Praise Be Upon Him' to it's first occurance only, which is curently linked to an explination page, or by replacing the phrase with 'Peace Be Upon Him' which I believe is also aceptable and has a more neutral tone. What say you? -- Wirewood Shadow 01:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with the former point of Wirewood Shadow, PBUH is unacceptable. I added this quotation to the article and can assure all that in its original form, there was no PBUH following the name of Muhammad. I think it absurd that somebody felt they had a right to add it and when I removed it once, it reappeared the next day. Wikipedia is surely no place for religious expressions of this nature, especially when editing a quotation in which those words were no longer originally there.
Muhammad is not my prophet and as this quoatation should make clear, is no great moral teacher either - he supported female genital mutilation, as well as male genital mutilation, which is the reason that most Muslims men and some Muslim women are mutilated today. I will also remind those who like to add PBUH to his name, that Muhammad married a nine year old girl with whom he shortly consummated the marriage.
I hereby give notice that I intend to remove the PBUHs again, and will be most disappointed if they reappear a second time.
-- Amyers 09:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I am certain that the original text had no PBUH, neither Peace Be Upon Him nor Praise Be Upon Him. If anybody would like to check the source, go to the following website:
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/aldeeb1/#Chapter2
Go to "3. The Sunnah"
-- Amyers 09:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not revert modified page until you have adressed the pre-existing discussion under the heading "No Pictures?" above. The photo remains on the page, but i have moved it to the infibulation section of the page because it illustrates the first half of the infibulation process. I have also modified the caption to make the picture more accurate. Once again, it is still there, you just have to scroll down a little to see it. Do not replace until you respond here in the talk page. Freddieresearch 20:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Check out this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5039536.stm This is evidence of the common cultural usage. Or is the terminology used in a BBC headline not reflective of what the common usage is? If nothing, it clearly demonstrates the mindset of those wanting to restrain the page under the heading FGC.
This article shows that its banned in africa - cause may cause death: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5109094.stm
Seems to be say that fgm only occurs or mostly occurs in sub-saharan africa. I ask people to look at this because it primarily occurs in the muslim arabian nations and not sub-saharan africa. Egypt has the highest rate on the map and it is not in sub-sahran africa. I know people are going to object to me so I amtelling you now to go research it because you will see it is a Islamic practice or practice done in primarily islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and not subsahran africa
Is there any significance to the fact that cUmdat as-Sālik (Reliance of the Traveler) says that circumcision for men and women is obligatory? It follows the Shāficī madhhab, and the commentary also discusses how the Shāficī position differs from that in the Ḥanafī and Ḥanbalī madhāhib. Kitabparast 20:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on clitoridotomy, these two paragraphs:
These two paragraphs seem to be refuring to both clitoridotomy and/or clitoridectomy. They might belong more in the clitoridectomy section.
I don't fancy with the popular cultural explanation of FGM. Because if you look at the map carefully, the areas where FGM is often exercised are Sub-Saharan countries. I think this must be due to the famine. Local people might have adopted this tradition in order to curb the birth rate by controling the female sexuality, so that the already lacking natural resources would be sufficient to the living people. Any ideas?
Thank you for the article you provided for me; however, I didn't mean to edit and add my argument. I thought there might be someone to verify this famine argument. Because I have read that in "primitive" tribes there can be "cruel" but essential measures (like even killing the infants) are taken to control the population growth. FGM might have been one of them.
Where is the image 'infibulation.jpg'? Did it get deleted? It is not present on old versions of the page(it is a redlink) or on the swedish wikipedia(I am still investigating this). How did we get it copied from the swedish wikipedia in the first place and how do we get it back? Christopher 19:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This seems incorrect. I seem to recall reading that Medicare(or Blue Cross or whoever) covered FGC until the mid seventies. Even assuming that no doctors took advantage of this coverage, surely the 1996 bill outlawing FGC would have been significantly less necessary if there was not a chance of a doctor performing FGC on them. Christopher 15:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Whis figure is correct? Reference 11 leads to a website that does not seem to have the facts, but I seriously doubt that clitorectomy stopped in 1958. I wouldn't be suprised if one could still 'get the snip' by simply finding a really old doctor. Christopher 20:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)It was sometimes practiced in English-speaking nations well after the first half of the Twentieth Century, ostensibly to stop masturbation. [10]. Blue Cross Blue Shield paid for clitoridectomies in the U.S.A. until 1977 [11]
Here is a quote on the 1990's bill you mentioned:
"Also on the National Level, Congresswoman Patricia Shroeder introduced H.R. 3247, a bill to outlaw FGM in the United States in the fall of 1994. The bill was then combined with The Minority Health Initiatives Act, H.R.3864. This bill was then combined with H.R. 941 on February 14, 1995, which was to be cited as the "Federal Prohibition of
Female Genital Mutilation of 1995."
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.220.40.109 ( talk • contribs) 15:00, September 27, 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a template for this kind of thing, but this will do.
I think a page should be set up just called Circumcision. Male and female should both be on these pages. References to the mutilation of child genitalia to reduce sexual pleasure (although not ending any pleasure, the procedure greatly reduces sensitivity) should all be on one page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dab182 ( talk • contribs) 11:20, October 2, 2006.
FGM and male Circumcision have completely different social dynamics. Combining them would require spending more time defining the differences rather than the similarities. Also male circumcision fulfills a valid medical function, which female mutilation does not. Atom 20:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with the concerns about size. If you were to do it, you could have an article that was brief, and gave a general overview of the complete topic, and each area. And then a link to each of the sub-articles. That might actually be beneficial in that some of the things in the circumcision article could be broken up into sub-articles too, in a kind of tree. Maybe even arguments for, and arguments against in different sub-articles might help things. Personally, by objection to putting them together is that circumcision has a valid medical use, where female circumcision/mutilation is totally unnecessary. The primary reason for circumcision is (flawed or not) for better medical health. The primary reason for mutilating women is to prevent them from having sexual pleasure. Vastly different. Doctors do not say that male circumcision is not medically valid, they say that the risks outweigh the benefits slightly, and that it should not be a routine medical procedure, leaving the decision to the parents. I'm not advocating it, only saying that there are medical benefits for male circumcision, and none for FGM. Atom 00:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
JakeW was correct in suggesting that this is not the place for that discussion. I was not offering my opinion, but stating what the predominant view of Doctors seems to be(currently). I was not trying to justify male circumcision, only suggesting that it is, in fact, different than FGC and FGM. Regardless, an integation is possible. I think to do that, and to get the very vocal people from both sides involved, it would be good to have an outline, or an example of what the main article might look like. If you like, I can provide a location on the Sexology and Sexuality Project for people to work on a rough draft of the top level article/overview in the tree. Also as part of that we could discuss what sorts of guidelines we want to use in working on the project (to avoid conflict). For instance, to provide an article off the main article for circumcision opponents and proponents. Reiterate that we wand facts and not opinions, and to assume good faith. In this way, providing NPOV rough draft of the page before suggesting the integration would allow for a better chance of success. Atom 22:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Cheers for all the comments, just thought I’d put the idea out there and see what you had to say – which was quite a lot!
The Circumcision main page has a link here anyway so at least they are recognised as similar even if its as HGC – (Human)
As for all these medical reasons, well, you would not perform an operation for a cleft lip if the patient didn’t have one - just like one shouldn’t perform circumcision on someone who doesn’t require it –having phimosis is a valid medical reason, but as for it being cleaner!! Wash yourself - lol – dave London – thanks-- Dab182 15:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No move Duja ► 17:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Female genital cutting → Female Genital Mutilation — The practice is widely known as "Female Genital Mutilation" which gets 969000 hits on Google while "Female Genital Cutting" only gets 133000 hits. Thus I requested that the page be renamed to "Female Genital Mutilation". CltFn 13:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC) The United Nations and Amnesty International officially refer to it as Female Genital Multilation [ [6]], [ [7]]. Thus is makes sense that we would follow the naming convention of authoritative and officially recognized global institutions. updated by -- CltFn 05:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
definition of mu·ti·late from [ dictionary.com] (emphasis added, of course): 1. to *injure*, *disfigure*, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts 2. **to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.** OR Mutilation in Online Medical Dictionary: "*Disfigurement or injury* by *removal or destruction* of a conspicuous or *essential part of the body*."
While "Mutilation" may elicit a negative emotion it is both accurate and appropriate in a linguistic and medical sense. "Cutting" on the other hand is both wrongly insufficient and disingenious (see below). Amputation, cancer, haemorrhage, decapitation and many other words also accurately and correctly used to describe forms of damage to a body may elicit a similar emotional response - that is because we don't like thinking about the damage, not because they are improperly biased words. In fact, it is just that they do convey that there is damage done that they affect us so. It is not a *moral* judgment, which is where this must remain neutral. "Horrible female genital mutilation" would not fly, but FMG is correct. I don't see how it can be argued that cutting in these forms does not "injure" the genitals. Removal of the clitoris certainly fits the second definition! If you think otherwise I suggest you poll the women you know and ask them if it should be considered an essential part. Essential for what? How about clitoral orgasms? There are multiple types of orgasms, that is just one. Retained ability to have other types does not at all imply the clitoris is not essential for clitoral orgasms.
FGM is the term used ~nine times more frequently in the literature (e.g. 459 uses vs. 51 in pubmed), declared propper by the WHO and the rest of the UN, and is the term people will be looking it up by.
Lastly, "cutting" is disingenious. When used in reference to wounds it strongly implies a linear penetration, rather than amputation or the other various wounds this involves. Cutting also implies to some degree that it could heal to original or near-original state, but, again, it often involves amputation and/or grave scarring that is intended to close off the vagina. If your hand was cut off in an accident I doubt you would even begin to understand why someone insisted that mutilate was an incorrect term and insisted you say you "cut your arm", even though they could show you definitions of cut that suggest it could be used. -- Fitzhugh 08:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
(Moved by Jakew 09:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)) Jakew 09:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I would be interested in NPOV (neutral point of view) of the article.
IMHO, it is damaged to some point, by calling also male circumcision a "mutilation". The difference between male and female circumcision should be stated clear. We ought to go past shame and false morals and scientifically and theologically skim over the matter.
Male circumcision is a sign of Abraham's covenant. It's meaning could be in doing something ritual to male penis, so it is no longer like the one of Adam, so it's function should be dedicated to Jahweh, and no longer to the one whom Adam and Eve listened and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Sacrifice for doing this must include blood. This does not severe ability to enjoy sex, but symbolically represents dedicating sexuality and offspring to LORD.
The religions demand male circumcision on 8th day. St Paul says circumcision is no longer required in NT as we have the better sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
Female circumcision is never mentioned in Bible, neither I have found the reference in Qor'an, for the latter not being an learned scholar.
We should technically have both terms: female circumcision and female mutilation. Surgical removal of clitoris is quite clearly the latter (it is removed, not circum-cised, cut around). Rationale: male circumcision does not reduce man's ability to enjoy sex (many witness the contrary)- top , most sensitive, part of penis is not removed, rather an unimportant part of skin with function as important or less than appendix.
With female removal of clitoris, the woman's ability to enjoy sex is severed, therefore it is mutilation, not circumcision. It is henceforth a very cruel act.
Female circumcision as a term would define operation similar to male circumcision, as a symbolic rather than harmful act, as a religious ritual performing removal of insignificant part of female genitalia's skin which would not reduce the ability to enjoy sex, but would include letting of blood for ritual purposes. I know I will be attacked for this, but a religious rite cannot be banned, for it will continue in hidden, a non-harmful substitute must be found, or re-invented.
(Reader may ask with right: "Why keep anything Scripturally not requested and seemingly barbaric?", yet a girl may not be actually saved for life by merely "saving" her from clitoral extraction - she could and on average would be stigmatized, considered demonic, uncircumcised, less worth tahn circumcised, banned from marriage with circumcised man, considered predestined for fornication, promiscuity & prostitution and used that way. Some African religions will demand doing something that includes letting of blood to female genitalia to pronounce her clean, and her sexuality and offspring dedicated to good spirits instead of to demons. Of course, having Lamb of God, we have no need for such sacrifice or ritual, and it will even be found spiritually damaging for a Christian girl, same as St Paul considered circumcision for Christian men ("If you circumcise yourselves, you must fulfill all Law!").)
Similar as top of penis is not removed, female clitoris should not be removed, but rather some functionally (and aesthetically) unimportant part of genitalia skin, for the practice to be considered circumcision, not mutilation. Clitoris is no doubt an organ created by God Himself and not by Devil so harming it without a valid reason (and there seems not to be medical one in these practices) is quite clearly a sin. Clearly thereof will follow the difference between circumcision and genital mutilation, while one may find both practices existing.
Consequently and finally, woman's virtue would be very poor and sad if it would be based on inability to feel sexual pleasure rather than on spiritual strength and willful self-restraint. -- Mtodorov 69 14:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ethipia should't be on there. the map is not correct. Ethiopia is almost 90% christian and do not particippate in this ritual. The only Ethiopians that might participate are the Islamic ones and that is 10% or less of Ethiopians.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.151.151 ( talk • contribs)
"The procedure was legally practiced by doctors in the United States until 1996,{{fact}} and is still common in many developing countries, some at rates exceeding 95%.{{fact}}"
Please cite this, or we will need to remove it. Atom 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I added the World Health Organization to the list of organizations that call the practice FGM, even though the WHO is an agency of the UN. I think the WHO and the UN are distinct enough to merit their own mention. In fact, I'd be inclined to remove the UN and move the two references to the "Further Reading: Online" section, as both references are less policy and more circumstantial. Ciotog 08:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
See discussions above regarding use of FGC versus FGM. Thw UN and WHO use both terms FGC and FGM, and neither is official. In many recent documents they use both terms. The article clearly discusses that the terminology (FGC vs FGC vs Female Circumcision) is not as important as is the open discussion and elimination of the practice. In order to claim that the UN and WHO "officially" support the term FGM, we would need a reference or citation to prove and support that. None of the four references given do that, they only show that both terms are used. The reason the the UN started using the FGC term in 1996 was because of the necessity to work locally with families and religious groups in countries where the practice of FGM takes place. Calling it what it is only alientates those groups instead of helping to facilitate communication, education, and furthering the goals of eliminating FGM. So, arguing and trying to push the usupported view that one term is "official" is counter productive and needless. Whatver one chooses to call the practice, most people work on the common goal of elminating it. The reason (see other discussions above) that we have a consensus on the article being called FGC is primarily for the reasons stated here. Whatever language one wishes to use, the goals are the same. Atom 15:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kaylima: First, although we seem to differ on terminology, we are working towards the same goals. The first, I think, is elimination of FGM/FGC. The second, good and accurate articles on Wikipedia.
Meanwhile, UNFPA with local NGO Somali Family Care Network, supported two roundtable discussions in September
in Garowe and Hargeisa titled United Voice of Somali Men and Women against Female Genital Cutting/Female Genital Mutilation (FGC/FGM). The purpose was to assess current FGC/FGM practices and to analyse opportunities and constraints for engagement on the issue in order to recommend actions aimed at the elimination of FGC/FGM. The talks were open only to Somalis in order to encourage community ownership.
Population-based surveys have also been utilized in research on female genital cutting (FGC)13, a practice known to have harmful effects on girls and women and common in many societies in the northern part of sub-Saharan Africa, some societies in the Middle East and some diaspora communities in the West.14 Data on FGC has, for example, been collected in Yemen and 15 countries in Africa between 1989 and 2002 through a module in the Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS)15
You are correct that the UN has many more documents that have just FGM, or a combination of FGM and FGC than just FGC references alone. I attribute that to the more recent usage of FGC or the combination of them both together. These two references show that some official documents use FGC or FGM/FGC.
On Wikipedia, when someone types FGM or "female genital mutilation" it gets redirected to this article. So, I don't think that people will have trouble finding it.
As for Amnesty International, it is a NGO, and not affiliated with anything official at all. They do valuable work, but still are on their own. They may use the term "official", or may not, I don't know, but as they have no official standing, the term is not meaningful in that context.
And, as I have said before. Whether a term is or is not "official" is not relevant. What is important is that communication and dialog on the topic can occur by whatever name works. This article does use both terms, and discusses the issue thoroughly. I don't think that by changing the paragraph and removing official that I have blunted the language of what is said in the article at all, or caused any confusion in anyones mind as to the serious nature of the topic. Conversely, were we to add "official" I don't feel that it would make anyone reading the article to take the content more seriously. Even if it did, would it be appropriate for us to say that if it is not true? I think we all agree that improving the accuracy and relevance of this article is important. Atom 23:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't say I'm happy with the 4 + 1 reasons given for this section. 1, 3 and 4 are pretty much the same thing. The first sentence of that paragraph is pretty loaded, as well. Is there a way to say it without being quite so dramatic? Ciotog 00:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
i have to agree on you with that,. Since nobody have cared to discuss this matter in the past 6 months, and since the section does not refer to any sources, i take the liberty to completly change parts of this section, with proper citations. anyone is free discuss how good or bad the edition is. -- Broccolee 10:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
edition is completed, here is pasted what was deleted:
The main reasons for FGC can be categorized into four most common social justifications, and one financial:
- The custom and tradition of becoming a woman involves this "rite of passage" from childhood to adulthood (ensuring she is good marriage material);
- A desire to control women's sexuality (virginity, morality and marriageability);
- A cultural practice that sometimes has a religious identification (a female's honor is a reflection on her entire family, and believing it is God's will);
- Social conformity to the community; [1]
- FGC is a primary source of income for many midwives/practitioners, who propagate the practice.
I sincerly believe that the new composition is both more thorough and exhaustive. -- Broccolee 12:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this passage because it is clearly POV and added for the very purpose of expressing that POV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Cultural_and_religious_aspects
"Although the indication of this statement is grouping Muslims, Christians and Animist together, there is a great difference among the three religions and what the teach about FGC. For example, Islam condones the practice in many instances, whereas with Christianity it remains a practice among some converts who want to hold to their traditions in their respective societies even though it clearly goes against the teachings of the Bible."
I do think that the unqualified grouping of Islam, Christianity, and Animism in this context is also POV to a lesser extent, but the fact is somewhat mitigated by giving the three religions individual treatment in the following sections. Those sections could use some NPOV revising also, though.
--
70.156.89.28
04:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
user:Ed Poor recently moved the terminology discussion to around half-way into the article, and I moved it back near the top. Regardless of your feelings about FGC vs. FGM, the terminology debate is a principle one with this issue and deserves some prominence in the article. Furthermore, someone unfamiliar with the practice of FGC might be confused as to why so many referenced websites refer to the practice as "Female Genital Mutilation" without that clarification coming sooner. This is similar to the reason why a note about disambiguation appears at the top of other wiki articles, rather than at the bottom or somewhere else. Please do not move this section without reaching a consensus here first. Ciotog 19:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Moved these from main article to talk page for discussion: <!-- I think the indexes are wrong. The article is about female genital cutting but this text to edit is about infibulation. Also clicking on female circumcision takes you to the female genital cutting article. --> <!--Do we have a source showing that the advocates deny whatever it is they deny?--> Joie de Vivre 18:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Here are several comments without sources. They have been cut from the main article and placed here.
Hopefully, someone can source these. -- Joie de Vivre 17:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
See the new section below, titled "Shweder's Fall 2000 Daedalus Article on "FGM"". It could be used as a source for most of those comments. -- Alan2012 05:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a newbie making my first post, so please forgive (and educate) any naive errors but I have a factual question that may be significant with regard to neutrality.
Personally, in the interest of disclosure, I find it difficult to maintain cultural relativism on the subject. I find the disclosure of my own bias useful here because that difficulty is so common among other Westerners and an analogous bias in the opposite direction may well be found among people from cultures where these rituals are practiced. As such, the overlooking of intermediate cases (gray, or at least grayer areas, if you will), is both likely and problematic.
I can only cite a class lecture (If this would be helpful, I can and will. I have a saved form peppered with AAA style citations of the same lectures but I don't know whether that would be useful or annoying. I can also ask my professor for her bibliography if that would help), which is why this is a request for information, rather than an edit or correction, but in my gender in cross-cultural perspective class, I learned that some forms involve cutting of the labia only, whereas the article seems at least partially to overlook those cases that lie between partial or total clitoridectomy and a ritual involving only gestures symbolic of cutting.
Another thing that my professor pointed out was that a more complex understanding of the phenomenon can actually help Western feminists to work with local feminists' efforts at reform. Western feminists taking an absolute stance on the issue can sometimes give short shrift to local women's agency, which can cause them to fail to recognize, and/or have difficulty working with, local women working in the same direction as themselves.
Randomundergrad 18:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Eritrean government recently (5 april 2007) prohibited female genital cutting. I think this info should be added into the article.-- Abdullais4u 06:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no factual/actual evidence of Female Genital Mutilation in Iran, ever, yet it is mentioned twice on the page. First it is defined as ‘circumstantial evidence’, then goes into ‘shia’ tradition and claims it is ‘common’ practice. In Iran?! Why and who is making fictional claims about Iran in Wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PrivateCitizen999999999 ( talk • contribs) 03:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
. . . I am curious as to why items which have no proper citation are left as ‘information’? The situation of women under theocracy in Iran is bad enough, there is no need to make things up about it with intent of deliberately distorting and misrepresenting. : PrivateCitizen 03:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I reworded the "these procedures can be highly controversial" line to refer only clitoridectomy and infibulation. I'm not convinced that the controversy regarding clitoridotomies (the version where only the hood is touched--either split or removed entirely) is anywhere near so great, and in any case the hood is pretty much the female equivalent of the foreskin.
This is not to downplay the pointless (and medically dangerous), sexist practice of infibulation, or the even more horrific act of clitoridectomy. Both of these acts are extremely controversial (for good reason, I think) and I don't have a problem mentioning that controversy. The clitoral hood, though, if anything isn't nearly as functional as the male foreskin. This isn't meant to start a flame war; I'm just stating simple facts:
The foreskin protects the glans from chaffage. After circumcision, keratin deposits build up in glans to desensitize it. Sexually speaking, this can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the individual.
With hoodectomies, on the other hand, the clitoris is usually still very well protected by the labia majora--it is protected from chaffage even without a hood. (There is always the possibility of an exceptionally large clitoris--one that protrudes significantly beyond the lips--but these clitorises 1. Are very rare. and 2. Usually protrude beyond their hood anyway.) Thus, I strongly doubt that the clitoris glans will undergo the same keratinization as the circumcised penis' glans.
In both sexes, the removal of skin can have other sexual affects (I could go into further detail, but I don't think it's necessary to start detailing various masturbatory techniques) but the point is, only in males does it also have the effect of reducing sensitivity. Therefore, the hoodectomy is actually less important (I mean "important" in the sense of "good" or "bad", depending on your opinion of genital modification) than the male circumcision.
I can't comment on the prevalence of hoodectomies vs. the more debilitating types of FGC, but the FGC article makes mention of it and I think we should avoid lumping all FGC into "badbadbad!" while remaining neutral on male circumcision. Y es, some people do routinely condemn all FGC as evil, but I do not believe this individuals are aware that much less drastic procedures (which are much more analogous to male circumcision) exist. If someone wants to challenge this belief, they should find a reputable source that is anti-hoodectomy (hoodectomy SPECIFICALLY) on principle alone (i.e. it doesn't object to the procedure merely on the grounds that their equipment is often primative and unsterile--this is an objection that can apply to any third-world medical procedure, including male circumcision.) -- Lode Runner 09:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. If you are not familiar with male and female genitalia (either through medical knowledge or hands-on experience), please save yourself the trouble and embarassment--don't reply. I KNOW what I'm talking about.
You are making the mistake of applying Wikipedia policy regarding article content to the talk pages. See the talk page of WP:NOR for my full post. I am leading a campaign to clarify that talk pages do not fall under NOR or many of the other restrictions. What does this mean precisely? Well, basically we can discuss original research and take it into account into our decisions so long as we don't put that research in the article itself. For instance, the argument that "hoodectomies are widely condemned" is unsourced--only the argument that "female genital cutting in general is condemned" is sourced. But does this widespread condemnation apply to episiotomy or genital piercings or voluntary labiaplasty as well? Surely not. I submit to you that this is proof that controversial sort of "female genital cutting" is not the same as "all procedures which cut the female genitals." Is it synthesis? Of course. But this argument is being used to argue for removal of an UNCITED 'fact' from the encyclopedia, and this (as opposed to the addition of an uncited fact) is a valid usage of original research. If you have a reputable source (non-"fringe", as you like to say) that illustrates widespread condemnation for removal of the hood and only the hood, feel free to add it. My synthesis doesn't trump a valid, reputable source--but it does trump an uncited claim. The hoodectomy should not be miscatagorized due to the poor choice of words given by our other sources, which (again) if taken literally would apply to any medical procedure involving the vulva. My comparisons to the penis are (similarly) perfectly valid for the purposes of decision making. They are irrelevant to the article itself, but highly relevant to the talk page.
If you disagree with my interpretation of WP:NOR, feel free to debate it there. There has so far been no opposition to my proposed clarifications. Any other interpretation of WP:NOR would violate WP:IAR (i.e. if the rule is in the way of progress, screw the rule.) -- Lode Runner 06:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
On May 28 I reverted to version 132129033 for a number of reasons, too many to list in the edit summary. My concerns are as follows:
As far as the pop culture list goes, I think some time in the near future I'll create a new list article and move everything there. I agree that an open ended list shouldn't be in a larger article, but the list items do have their own merit. Ciotog 22:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
It's good to see that the issue concerning the proper usage of an acronym, FGM vs. FGC, has finally been properly addressed and discussed within the article. I wanted to pass along a "thank you" to the editor(s) who incorporated this, somewhat contentious, subject matter into the article. Great job.
pixiequix 10:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a section on sexual consequences of female genital cutting, sourcing Hanny Lightfoot-Klein's book Prisoners of Ritual. They misquote it, citing only things that demonstrate it increases women's sexual pleasure, which is not the conclusion the author comes to. That's massively NPOV as well as quoting out of context, and should not be on this page. Why is it still there? I don't even see any discussion here about it. QuizzicalBee 15:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This statement found in the artical is either very confusing or contradictory.
For instance, prohibition of the procedure among tribes in Kenya significantly strengthened resistance to British colonial rule in the 1950s and increased support for the Mau Mau guerrilla movement. During that period, the practice became even more common, as it was seen as a form of resistance towards colonial rule.
Yes, it has been banned in Egypt. Yet, the government needs to stiffen and enforce penalties and needs to investigate potential persons conducting the surgery. One needs to note that the practitioner in the Badour Shaker case was operating a clinic that was illegal in the first place. Additionally, as is apparent by a CNN report, even barbers conduct this practice. Thus, while Egypt has banned this practice, the ban does not necessarily end the wide-spread execution of this practice. [19] [20] Dogru144 09:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In case some haven't noticed in the article, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa said "It is prohibited, prohibited, prohibited." [21] Dogru144 02:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It's unclear when Image:Fgm_map.gif was updated. There's a 2005 map at [22] which was apparently constructed from public domain sources. The same data could be used to create a Wikipedia map. Though NPR [23] is reporting that the incidence in Egypt has dropped to on the order of 70%. -- Beland 19:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The article intro states:
So, why isn't this the lemma of this article?
Pjacobi 10:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The word "mutilation" can be, and often is, based on culturally-constructed value judgement. The fancy keloidal scars of some traditional african cultures, for example, might be called "mutilations" by some, but they are decorative and attractive to others, namely those who have them and create them. Voluntary limb amputations might be considered mutilations by most people, but I gather that there are those who have them and want them. So, who is to say? The extremity of something like voluntary amputation (!) leads me to consider that maybe my phrase "often is", in the first sentence, is too cautious. Maybe "mutilation" is always either culturally constructed, or subjective in origin. In any case, the focus here should be on the procedures which are carried out involuntarily, on young women not yet at the age of consent; this is where there is a human rights issue. I don't see the point of bickering about cultural/subjective aesthetics when they are chosen by individuals of age. I, personally, percieve some body-piercing extremes to be on the borderline of "mutilations", but that doesn't mean that I have the right to insist that they be described as such in an encyclopedia. That's my idiosyncratic reaction, not a matter of objective fact. -- Alan2012 01:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
PS: From the standpoint of the majority of women who seek genital modification (which is the majority of women who have it), it is in no way "mutilation", but rather enhancement or beautification. Those are facts, which you can ascertain by studying the issue (just spend some time reading about it). Those are facts, but they would not justify calling this article "Female Genital Enhancement", since "enhancement" is a cultural/subjective value judgement. The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter. This is not about trying to "write from an absolute point in empty space"; it is about accomodating a very wide diversity of personal styles and aesthetic tastes. -- Alan2012 02:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
And it's quite clear that in some cultures the practice remains an acceptable one and calling it mutilation to them is incredibly misleading and in no way NPOV. Nil Einne 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
You missed out half of the quote "It is more frequently referred to as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female circumcision (FC)." The second part is key. Supporters of the practice tend to call it FC and therefore why shouldn't we call this article by that name instead of your proposes FGM? In the end, FGC is a more neutral term that balances both views. Also, did you actually bother to read the article? I don't get how some versions type IV (which doesn't always even involve cutting) can be said to be mutilation. Even type I is not really any more mutilation then other common practices like male circumscion which is usually not referred to by the name. (N.B. Personally even though I abhor the practice particularly type II and III, I always use FGC or FC, never FGM which is too value-laden to be any used) Nil Einne 19:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
It was surprising to see that this article made no mention of anthropologist Richard Shweder's much-discussed article in the Fall 2000 Daedalus. It is fascinating and highly informative, and could not be more relevant. Here are the first few paragraphs with the link. I highly recommend a careful reading of the whole thing. Perhaps someone closer to the editing process of this page could insert it as a reference in the appropriate places. -- Alan2012 05:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3671/is_200010/ai_n8920226
What about "female genital mutilation"? And why understanding culture matters in the first place
Daedalus, Fall 2000 by Shweder, Richard A
Female genital mutilation (FGM, also known as female circumcision) has been practiced traditionally for centuries in sub-Saharan Africa. Customs, rituals, myths, and taboos have perpetuated the practice even though it has maimed or killed untold numbers of women and girls.... FGM's disastrous health effects, combined with the social injustices it perpetuates, constitute a serious barrier to overall African development. --Susan Rich and Stephanie Joyce'
On the basis of the vast literature on the harmful effects of genital surgeries, one might have anticipated finding a wealth of studies that document considerable increases in mortality and morbidity. This review could find no incontrovertible evidence on mortality, and the rate of medical complications suggests that they are the exception rather than the rule. --Carla M. Obermeyer2
Early societies in Africa established strong controls over the sexual behavior of their women and devised the brutal means of circumcision to curb female sexual desire and response. --Olayinka Koso-Thomas3
... studies that systematically investigate the sexual feelings of women and men in societies where genital surgeries are found are rare, and the scant information that is available calls into question the assertion that female genital surgeries are fundamentally antithetical to women's sexuality and incompatible with sexual enjoyment. --Carla M. Obermeyer4
Those who practice some of the most controversial of such customs--clitoridectomy, polygamy, the marriage of children or marriages that are otherwise coerced--sometimes explicitly defend them as necessary for controlling women and openly acknowledge that the customs persist at men's insistence. --Susan M. Okin5
It is difficult for me--considering the number of ceremonies I have observed, including my own-- to accept that what appear to be expressions of joy and ecstatic celebrations of womanhood in actuality disguise hidden experiences of coercion and subjugation. Indeed, I offer that the bulk of Kono women who uphold these rituals do so because they want to--they relish the supernatural powers of their ritual leaders over against men in society, and they brace the legitimacy of female authority and, particularly, the authority of their mothers and grandmothers. --Fuambai Ahmadu6
BY RITES A WOMAN: LISTENING TO THE MULTICULTURAL VOICES OF FEMINISM
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1999, Fuambai Ahmadu, a young African scholar who grew up in the United States, delivered a paper at the American Anthropological Association meeting in Chicago that should be deeply troubling to all liberal freethinking people who value democratic pluralism and the toleration of "differences" and who care about the accuracy of cultural representations in our public-policy debates.
Ahmadu began her paper with these words:
I also share with feminist scholars and activists campaigning against the practice [of female circumcision] a concern for women's physical, psychological and sexual well-being, as well as for the implications of these traditional rituals for women's status and power in society. Coming from an ethnic group [the Kono of Eastern Sierra Leone] in which female (and male) initiation and "circumcision" are institutionalized and a central feature of culture and society and having myself undergone this traditional process of becoming a "woman," I find it increasingly challenging to reconcile my own experiences with prevailing global discourses on female "circumcision."7
Coming-of-age ceremonies and gender-identity ceremonies involving genital alterations are embraced by, and deeply embedded in the lives of, many African women, not only in Africa but in Europe and the United States as well. Estimates of the number of contemporary African women who participate in these practices vary widely and wildly between eighty million and two hundred million. In general, these women keep their secrets secret. They have not been inclined to expose the most intimate parts of their bodies to public examination and they have not been in the habit of making their case on the op-ed pages of American newspapers, in the halls of Congress, or at academic meetings. So it was an extraordinary event to witness Fuambai Ahmadu, an initiate and an anthropologist, stand up and state that the oft-repeated claims "regarding adverse effects [of female circumcision] on women's sexuality do not tally with the experiences of most Kono women," including her own.8 Ahmadu was twenty-two years old and sexually experienced when she returned to Sierra Leone to be circumcised, so at least in her own case she knows what she is talking about. Most Kono women uphold the practice of female (and male) circumcision and positively evaluate its consequences for their psychological, social, spiritual, and physical well-being. Ahmadu went on to suggest that Kono girls and women feel empowered by the initiation ceremony (see quotation, above) and she described some of the reasons why.
Ahmadu's ethnographic observations and personal testimony may seem astonishing to readers of Daedalus. In the social and intellectual circles in which most Americans travel it has been so "politically correct" to deplore female circumcision that the alarming claims and representations of anti-"FGM" advocacy groups (images of African parents routinely and for hundreds of years disfiguring, maiming, and murdering their female children and depriving them of their capacity for a sexual response) have not been carefully scrutinized with regard to reliable evidence. Nor have they been cross-examined by freethinking minds through a process of systematic rebuttal. Quite the contrary; the facts on the ground and the correct moral attitude for "good guys" have been taken to be so self-evident that merely posing the rhetorical question "what about FGM?" is presumed to function as an obvious counterargument to cultural pluralism and to define a clear limit to any feelings of tolerance for alternative ways of life. This is unfortunate, because in this case there is good reason to believe that the case is far less onesided than supposed, that the "bad guys" are not really all that bad, that the values of pluralism should be upheld, and that the "good guys" may have rushed to judgment and gotten an awful lot rather wrong.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - Next
Along the same lines as the above (Shweder), this is a new book by Janice Boddy:
SNIPPETS:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8414.html http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c8414.html http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i8414.html
Civilizing Women: British Crusades in Colonial Sudan
Janice Boddy, Princeton U Press, 2007
[...snip...]
Civilizing Women is a riveting exploration of the disparate worlds of British colonial officers and the Muslim Sudanese they sought to remake into modern imperial subjects. Focusing on efforts to stop female circumcision in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan between 1920 and 1946, Janice Boddy mines colonial documents and popular culture for ethnographic details to interleave with observations from northern Sudan, where women's participation in zƒr spirit possession rituals provided an oblique counterpoint to colonial views.
[...snip...]
The tendency for female genital cutting to overdetermine perceptions of northern Sudan is not unusual. Indeed, no other cultural practice that refigures human bodies is more vilified in the Western press than what it calls "female genital mutilation" or "FGM."
[...snip...]
Over the past two decades or more, a highly visible international crusade to end female genital cutting (FGC) has taken place, aimed at African countries such as Sudan. While those who practice FGC belong to a variety of religions, the majority are Muslims, and the custom is said to support premarital chastity, strongly associated with Islam. The issue has arisen in debates about the "clash of civilizations," between Islamic societies -- often labeled "medieval" and "barbaric" -- and the "civilized" West. As Richard Shweder notes, "the global campaign against what has been gratuitously and invidiously labeled "female genital mutilation" remains a flawed game whose rules have been fixed by the rich nations of the world."3 This book describes an opening test match in that game, set in Sudan during the first half of the twentieth century under British colonial rule. I offer it as an extended critique of the continuing campaign, the discourse that informs it, and the imperialist logic that sustains it even now.
[...snip...]
Much literature on the subject is moralizing and polemical, and regularly alienates those in positions to stimulate change... [I]n cases too numerous to list, self-righteous critics present and past have leaped to condemn what they've only presumed to understand, citing unverified statistics culled from other disparaging publications, relying on self-reference and reiteration to create the truth of their cause.12 Their typical verdict: that female genital cutting regularly kills, has no valid meaning, and is inflicted on ignorant and powerless women by sadistic men.13
My research warns that this view is mistaken, born of little contextual data and a specifically Euro-American set of ideas about person, agency, and gender. I am not arguing that we can reposition an elusive Archimedean point to achieve greater "objectivity"; one can never be truly outside of a culture, there is no such nonplace to be, no "view from nowhere."14 To say that one's culture guides and perhaps mystifies understanding is incontestable and trite; taken to its logical conclusion, it applies to analysts as well as their subjects, granting Western critics no unmediated purchase on the practices they decry. Admitting one's situatedness clarifies one's responsibility to take seriously what people have to say for themselves, to credit the contexts of their lives. Insight comes neither by Olympian fiat nor through spurious, if therapeutic, empathy.
[...snip...]
This book is not only about colonial efforts to end infibulation in Sudan, or the shape of a colonial venture in one small part of the world. It is also a protracted allegory for imperialism in the early twenty-first century. The dark impress of the colonial past is palpable in today's Darfur and the long-standing conflict between northern and southern Sudan.21 Indeed, so much of the current era, the strained relations between Christianity and Islam, claims of "civilization" and "barbarism," individualism and communal values, is a complicated echo of former times.22
[...snip...]
I just omitted the last portion of THIS passage, from the "Medical Consequences" section:
"The failure to use sterile medical instruments may lead to infections and the spread of disease, such as HIV, especially when the same instruments are used to perform procedures on multiple women.[10]"
Reference number 10 is:
EAST AFRICAN MEDICAL JOURNAL, Volume 69 Number 9: Pages 479-482, September 1992. THE RISK OF MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS AFTER FEMALE CIRCUMCISION M. A. DIRIE and G. LINDMARK
.......... the full text is available online, and it says nothing about HIV or AIDS.
Is there some other reference which establishes a relation?
-- Alan2012 14:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Further along the lines of Shweder and Boddy:
This book is too new to be in most libraries or for there to be more detailed online reviews available. Nevertheless, from the brief descriptions and chapter titles one can get the gist.
Note the mention of "frequent marginalization of African women's voices in debates over FGC". This is emphasized by Shweder and others. There's a lot of racism, classism and (even!) sexism in this whole mess, along with cultural imperialism.
-- Alan2012 15:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/welcome.jsp?source=rss&isbn=0813540267
Transcultural Bodies: Female Genital Cutting in Global Context
Hernlund, Ylva Shell-Duncan, Bettina
ISBN: 0813540267
Rutgers
œ22.50*
Publication date: 01 July 2007
ISBN 0813540267 DEWEY 392.1
Full description
Female "circumcision" or, more precisely, female genital cutting (FGC), remains an important cultural practice in many African countries, often serving as a coming-of-age ritual. It is also a practice that has generated international dispute and continues to be at the center of debates over women's rights, the limits of cultural pluralism, the balance of power between local cultures, international human rights, and feminist activism. In our increasingly globalized world, these practices have also begun immigrating to other nations, where transnational complexities vex debates about how to resolve the issue. Bringing together thirteen essays, "Transcultural Bodies" provides an ethnographically rich exploration of FGC among African diasporas in the United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia. The contributors analyze changes in ideologies of gender and sexuality in immigrant communities, the frequent marginalization of African women's voices in debates over FGC, and controversies over legislation restricting the practice in immigrant populations.
Reviews
"This volume of essays by some of the most knowledgeable experts in the world takes us a huge step beyond the global activist and first-world media (mis-)representations of FGM into moral complexities, alternative beliefs about gender and beauty, and local political realities in areas of Africa where genital surgeries are commonplace for both men and women and are highly valued by both sexes." - Richard A. Shweder, author of Why Do Men Barbecue?: Recipes for Cultural Psychology"
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0618/2006025455.html
Table of contents for Transcultural bodies : female genital cutting in global context / edited by Ylva Hernlund and Bettina Shell-Duncan.
Bibliographic record and links to related information available from the Library of Congress catalog.
Note: Contents data are machine generated based on pre-publication provided by the publisher. Contents may have variations from the printed book or be incomplete or contain other coding.
Contents
List of Tables
Preface
Chapter 1 Transcultural Positions: Negotiating Rights and Culture --Ylva Hernlund and Bettina Shell-Duncan
Chapter 2 Gender Crusades: The Female Circumcision Controversy in Cultural Perspective --Janice Boddy
Chapter 3 A Refuge from Tradition and The Refuge of Tradition: On Anti-Circumcision Paradigms --L. Amede Obiora
Chapter 4 Female Circumcision in Africa and Beyond: The Anthropology of a Difficult Issue --Aud Talle
Chapter 5 Persistence of Tradition or Reassessment of Cultural Practices in Exile? Discourses on female circumcision among and about Swedish Somalis --Sara Johnsdotter
Chapter 6 Managing Cultural Diversity in Australia: Legislating Female Circumcision, Legislating Communities --Juliet Rogers
Chapter 7 Representing Africa in the Kasinga Asylum Case --Charles Piot
Chapter 8 Seeking Asylum, Debating Values and Setting Precedents in the 1990s: The Cases of Kassindja and Abankwah in the United States --Corinne A. Kratz
Chapter 9 Making Mandinga or Making Muslims? Debating Female Circumcision, Ethnicity, and Islam in Guinea-Bissau and Portugal --Michelle C. Johnson
Chapter 10 Infibulation and the Orgasm Puzzle: Sexual Experiences of Infibulated Eritrean Women in Rural Eritrea and Melbourne Australia --Mansura Dopico
Chapter 11 Experiencing Sex in Exile: Can genitals change their gender? On conceptions and experiences related to Female Genital Cutting (FGC) among Somalis in Norway R. --Elise B. Johansen
Chapter 12 "Ain't I a Woman Too?": Challenging Myths of Sexual Dysfunction in Circumcised Women --Fuambai Ahmadu
Chapter 13 The Failure of Pluralism? --Henrietta L. Moore
Bibliography
Index
On second and third thought, I think this idea is a good one: I wrote (above):
The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter.
Indeed. Why not broaden the scope, under the title "Female Genital Modification", and present it all in the context of what is, undeniably, an intense interest (if not obsession), worldwide, with the appearance (and perhaps organoleptic qualities) of female genitals, and with changing same? Clearly this interest -- and willingness to undertake radical and risky modifying procedures -- is not limited to Africa, Asia, or other poor areas of the world. Traditional (African, S Asian, etc.) "FGC" is but one group among a larger variety of procedures falling under the general heading of Female Genital Modification. That is, modification for personal, subjective, aesthetic and cultural reasons (i.e. non-medical).
This is obviously a notable worldwide phenomenon, attracting the attention of at least hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people. It handily clears the hurdle of "notability".
Comments, please.
-- Alan2012 16:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Further thought, more important than the above:
Even "Female Genital Modification" is not right, since it refers (like "cutting") only to technique, and does not really express what is going on in human terms. No one goes for "modification" or "cutting"; they go for aesthetic enhancement. That's the purpose of said modifications or cutting. So, a title along the lines of "Female Genital Aesthetics" would be the more proper, more general heading, with subheadings including the various techniques employed, human rights issues (where genital modification is forced or violent), etc.
For perspective, consider: calling an aesthetic effort merely "cutting" or "modification" is like dealing with high-fashion clothing under the heading "Stitched Body-Coverings", or like discussing skyscrapers under the heading "Altitudinous Building Material Assemblages". Obviously, those titles have technical correctness, but they utterly fail to express, in human/cultural terms, what is going on, what is important. They merely advert to a few relatively trivial technical facts. The same is true of "Female Genital Cutting" -- technically correct (if limited in scope; hence my original suggestion of changing to "Modification"), but focussing on a relatively trivial technical fact. The KEY thing, the central matter, is not that genitals are being cut or modified (by whatever means), but that hundreds of millions (or billions) of humans find it desirable or even necessary to undertake rather extreme procedures in the interest of (percieved) aesthetic improvement. THAT is the primary phenomenon here. Everything else is important, too, in its own subordinate sphere. (When I say "relatively trivial" I mean exactly that; relatively, not absolutely. The cutting and whatnot is important, too, but something else is more important. Copische?)
Hence I suggest that the title be changed to something like "Female Genital Aesthetics & Enhancement Procedures", or "Female Genital Aesthetics, Modification & Adornment" -- a tad wordy, but the best I can do at the moment.
Comments, suggestions and improvements, please.
PS: You'll note, by the way, that referring to "aesthetics" does NOT take a point of view as to whether the aesthetic objectives are met; i.e. this does not say that the procedures in question DO result in improvement. It merely says that aesthetic improvement is the (human) purpose of the procedures in question -- whether or not that purpose is achieved (which is, again, very much a subjective and cultural matter).
-- Alan2012 23:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "pussy lift" surgery: that phrase is (obviously) slang, and not as common as I had thought. It refers to a wide variety of procedures most commonly referred to as "labioplasty" or "vaginal rejuvenation", listed here: http://www.onlinesurgery.com/plasticsurgery/vaginal-rejuvenation-default.asp
Namely:
See also the photos here:
http://www.cosmeticsurg.net/procedures/Labioplasty.php --- Labioplasty/Labiaplasty Info and Photos
Those photos are interesting insofar as one can see a parallel with traditional African genital modifications: the purpose is to smooth, to eliminate protuberance, which is deemed undesirable. Perhaps "our" (modern, Western) tastes and preferences are not so very far removed from "theirs".
I note that the purpose of these procedures is principally, but not exclusively, aesthetic. Another purpose is to enhance sexual pleasure for male and/or female. That would suggest, in keeping with my comments above, an article title along the lines of "Female Genital Aesthetics & Hedonic Functionality", or some such. (Again, wordy, but best I can think of off the top.) I could argue that "aesthetics" covers it, since that can be defined as having to do with sense perception in general, (which would include genital sensations during coitus), though I know that it most often refers to visual beauty.
As ever: comments are welcome. I am still working through all this stuff myself. It is a process.
PS: Inexplicably, I've been unable to find any reference to vaginoplasties and labiaplasties as "mutilations" in the literature disseminated by the plastic surgeons who perform the operations.
-- Alan2012 14:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In the "Attempts to end the practice of FGC" section there is this paragraph:
"On June 28, 2007 Egypt banned female genital cutting after the death of 12-year old Badour Shaker during a genital circumcision. The Guardian of Britain reported that her death "sparked widespread condemnation" of the practice. Egyptian newspapers reported that earlier in the day of her surgery, the girl had given out sweets, in celebration of her excellent grades in school. [41] (See earlier in this article for details of the death, and see the details in the next section regarding the ban on female genital cutting.)"
Why include the sentence about the girl handing out sweets? What relevance does it have to FGC? If it is to show that she was healthy earlier in the same day I feel that needs to be clarified. Mnoram 22:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
One sicko, as far as I can see: Alan2012 Can you not see that little girls being held down and mutilated is heinous ? They are too young to agree to such wickedness. They are not being "modified". They are being subjected to mutilation of a nightmarish proportion. They can't recover because their nerve pathways have been cut away. Congratulations, Alan Mengele.
Some idiot has vandalized a section of this page. some one should take care of it and replace it with something appropriate
In the article, type I FGC is defined as clitoridectomy. This is incorrect. Clitoridectomy is defined as the removal (excision) of part or all of the clitoris[ [24]] [ [25]]. Type I FGC is defined by WHO as: "Type I (FGM 1) - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris."[ [26]] How should we fix this? Also, the sentence under Type I which begins, "This term was devised in The Sudan by...." is not supported by the source. It isn't even clear what term this is referring to, but there is nothing in the source suggesting that any term was "devised in the Sudan." Blackworm 10:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a reference anywhere. Where is the reference for the claim that there are inherent different enumerated "types" of Female Genital Cutting? Who originated this enumeration? In any case, this grouping and enumeration must be attributed, not presented to us as fact without citation. See WP:V. I have also tagged "Type I - Clitoridectomy" with being a factual error -- for reasons tI cite in a different section, above. Blackworm 05:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The edit made to add a reference was incomplete. The statement is "four types have been categorized." The source says "the second section defines four types of mutilation." Thus, at best, the statement should say "The World Health Organization defines four types of female genital mutilation" -- thus properly attributing the source of the definition and conforming to WP:V. Now, there is also the issue as to whether a detailed rehash of the type system the WHO invented is to be included in the article, with subsequent discussion framed in those terms. Blackworm 14:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[...] to avoid fuelling unnecessary sensitivity about the issue. Thus, for example, participants coined a new phrase for FGM: "female genital cutting." The term "female circumcision" was rejected as a misleading euphemism, but "female genital mutilation" was thought to imply excessive judgement by outsiders as well as insensitivity toward individuals who have undergone excision.
— DISPATCHES -- NEWS FROM UNFPA, THE UNITED NATIONS POPULATION FUND, NUMBER 6, MARCH 1996[ [27]
(reset indentation) WP:V says to use reliable sources. The World Health Organization is a reliable source. They are cited in numerous governmental and scholarly sources and their 4 types are used to classify FGC in the majority I've seen, and they're used to aid the rest of the discussion (so that the different types may be referenced later). Please be bold and help fix what you think is wrong with the article, rather than placing fact tags which lower the article's worth (articles have failed good article nominations because of them). Ciotog 03:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
My edit, being repeatedly reverted by Jakew, is the addition of "which is partially..." in the sentence below:
The clitoral hood is the female prepuce, homologous to the foreskin (prepuce) of the male, which is partially or totally removed during male circumcision. [2]
Jakew has objected on grounds on WP:NOR. This is invalid, the source is referenced and the information is widely available.
Jakew has also objected on ground that it violates WP:SOAP. Please indicate how you believe my change violates this policy. My change is not "Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment," it is not an "opinion piece," nor is it "self-promotion" nor "advertisement" (quoted from WP:SOAP).
The change is useful for context and adherence to WP:NPOV, especially given the prior introduction of the term, "female circumcision" and the fact that this term redirects here. We would not want to give the impression that all forms of female circumcision are analogous to male circumcision, for example; thus it is appropriate to point out the appropriate categorization of the analogous procedure called circumcision in males. Blackworm 13:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
In short, the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article; the only way to demonstrate that you are not inserting your own POV is to represent these sources and the views they reflect accurately.
— WP:NOR, emphasis in original
"Ciotog, can you explain why you believe a better reference would be required? The claim seems supported by the source. Blackworm 15:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)"
As expected, an attempt was again made to remove this information. I have restored this information along with a new cited reference which supports all aspects of the sentence. Hopefully this will end this discussion. Blackworm 20:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the text has now been changed, reintroducing several problems. The change is from:
To:
The edit summary was "Better ref, supporting entire sentence".
Problems include:
The word "infibulation" is derived from the Latin word "fibula," meaning a pin or clasp. The term has been given to a mulative procedure in which the vagina is partially closed by approximating the labia majora in the midline. Clitoridectomy may or may not be included, but the essential part of the operation consists of partial closure of the vulva and the vaginal orifice.
— New York State Journal of Medicine, Volume 77, Number 6: Pages 729-31, April 1977. [emphasis mine]
Infibulation involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora, leaving a raw open wound. [...] Nothing remains of the normal anatomy of the genitalia,[...]
— Wikipedia, citing the above [emphasis mine]
All empasis mine. Can we do better than this? Can someone suggest a rewrite? Blackworm 10:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed:
Amnesty International and the World Health Organization most often refer to the practice as female genital mutilation. [3] [4] [5] [6]
None of the sources support the claim that this term is what these organizations "most often" use. I have placed it here in case someone wishes to rephrase. Blackworm ( talk) 09:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
"None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions."
— -- Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy
"[...] while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use 'truth' as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth."
— Wikipedia's No Original Research policy
Blackworm ( talk) 22:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I mentioned civility once, it was justified. If the brief mention of the WP:Bite guidelines offended you, I am sorry, but it is a legitimate observation - you are biting me. I am doing more than changing just two sentences as the edit summaries have shown - I am reworking the whole section. I would have never used the one tag if your haste hadn't made it a good option. I suggest you take your own advice. I think perhaps you are making a big deal out of nothing. I am actively trying to add sourced content - you are trying to censor in accordance to a POV. Please calm down. Perhaps you should wait until I'm finished with constructive edits before you accuse me of being disruptive and harmful. I have not violated any policy. If you are unhappy with others editing an article may I remind you of WP:OWN. I am sectioning off the terms so that you can add any sourced material you wish to include. Phyesalis ( talk) 03:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I have I have changed the statement (Blackworm was correct). The three refs did not support the statement as written. One of them contained relevant info and I have added the quote to the ref. I have removed the other two, added additional citations and changed the wording of the statement to reflect the info cited. I have also restructured the sections - each term has its own section (following in chronological order) to allow for sourced commentary. I also added a quote that discusses the change from "FC" to "FGM". I had a few issues working out the refs (that's what took me so long!). The inuse tag has been removed. Thank you for your patience. Phyesalis ( talk) 03:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I realize that I'm opening a potentially nasty can of worms, but I don't see how unreferenced OR pertaining to the issues on Circumcision relate to FGC. Obviously, some referenced material that specifically deals with the contentious issues between FGC and (male) circumcision could be appropriate in a particular context/sub-section/different page, but it is completely inappropriate to have them strewn throughout the article. Random refs to just (male) circumcision are irrelevant and OR, as this is not a page about (male) circumcision, nor is it about the issues between the two. I am removing all uncited material to (male) circumcision. Phyesalis ( talk) 02:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Second - this isn't about what men think about their foreskins in comparison to female genitalia(no disrespect), it's an article about FGC. The assertion's unsourced, irrelevant and potentially harmful. I challenge it. If Blackworm cares to respond, I would appreciate specific examples of my "unsourced and badly attributed material", as I have asked him before. Phyesalis ( talk) 22:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)"Nevertheless, the comparison of male circumcision to female genital mutilation by some groups, such as the International Coalition for Genital Integrity, is shameless and appalling. Female genital cutting is an act of subjugation, the removal of part or all of the genitalia and, sometimes, the near-complete suturing of the vulva, leading to high rates of infection and, during childbirth, death."
This needs to be archived badly.
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The article fails to clearly specify how FGC affects the female orgasm which I believe is the crux of the matter. Simply put: can a woman who has had FGC achieve an orgasm?
The article also incorrectly states men cannot orgasm without a penis. One of the greatest male erogenous zones is in the anus. Orgasm can be reached without penile stimulation- a friend of mine who was born intersex, and whose penis is surgically constructed and non-functional, can testify to this.
This page has no mention of voluntary instances of the more extreme forms of genital cutting, such as this one, which could also serve as illustration on a subpage, if use rights could be obtained.
This is sometimes practiced in BDSM contexts. Zuiram 05:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems quite clear that early in the Twentieth Century, clitoridotomy and other genital modifications were promoted as a way of stopping masturbation. Later, when the fear of masturbation was discredited, those promoting clitoridotomy advocated it as a way of enhancing sexual sensitivity. For some reason this simple statement of fact keeps being removed. I cannot see the problem with it. I would appreciate it if those who believe that it is unacceptable would explain their position. Michael Glass 08:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean by the fallacy of the striking instance? I could not find such thing mentioned in lists of logical fallacies. If you mean that one of the reasons given for genital modification of women in the early Twentieth Century was to stop masturbation, then why not make that small change? Then we could both look for more evidence and document it. For instance, there is this statement by a Dr Dawson, quoted in Alex Comfort's 'The Anxiety Makers,' Panther Edition, London, 1968, page 113-114:
However, though Dr Dawson blamed the clitoris and its hood for all manner of ills, Comfort has a much more striking instance. He says:
Or is this horror story too striking an instance, and therefore it must be excised? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, in a time when masturbation was feared it is not surprising that those in favour of genital modification would promote it to discourage masturbation. Nor is it surprising that in a time when sexual expression is accepted that genital modification should be promoted as something to enhance sexual feeling. Why does this plain piece of common sense strike you as being 'original research'? Since when did it need original research to realise that advertising promotes things? Since when did a simple observation become a 'thesis'? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, there is nothing bizarre or novel in the idea that people publicise their ideas. It is not conspiracy theorising to point out that people publicise their ideas. You have publicised your ideas and so have I. Publicising ideas is what people do all the time. Please stop the nonsense about conspiracy theories. Michael Glass 13:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Further reading shows that two papers from 1958 and 1959 advocate circumcision to enhance sexual pleasure, one of which you cited in support of your hypothesis! It is only by focusing on this one reason and ignoring any others given that your hypothesis makes the slightest bit of sense.
I have added this information to the article accordingly. - Jakew 14:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I have also added some information. I hope that it will be respected and not cut. Showing that ideas in society change does not involve alleging a conspiracy, something that I never did. Michael Glass 21:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The above statements are a misrepresentation of what I wrote. The article clearly states that controlling masturbation was ONE of the motives of the circumcisers of women in the early Twentieth Century. It does not imply that this was the only argument used. I cannot understand how anyone can argue that the simple word 'now' implies such a thing, especially as other arguments were clearly spelled out in the two previous paragraphs.
As for the argument about original research I believe that this is being used as a bludgeon to suppress any idea that does not fit into a narrow mindset. When I said that female circumcision was used to suppress masturbation and its decline was related to the decline in the fear of masturbation, the objection was that this was a novel theory and was therefore 'original research'. When I said that the two things happened at the same time the censorship shears came out again, with the insulting charge that it was sneaky.
I have now added more information, including information that shows that the fear of masturbation in the medical profession declined in the latter Twentieth Century. I would appreciate it if Jayig and Jake would stop their ad hominem attacks and their use of Wiki policy as a bludgeon to suppress this point. Michael Glass 14:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I like the rewording. As for my first draft (above) I agree that the wording could be improved. However, the basic point remains true that doctors do respond to social forces in their society. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, you have my apology. It was Jayig who made the comments that I objected to. It wasn't you and I am sorry that I wrote that. please see below. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, first of all I object to your description of one of my edits as 'sneaky'. I don't agree that my additions were 'original research' any more than the boy who saw that the emperor had no clothes was doing original research. Nevertheless, I have tried to change the wording to get over the objections that you and Jake expressed. The result: you accuse me of being sneaky.
Secondly, Jayig, I object strongly to your comments at [1] Perhaps you should consider the Wiki policy of politeness to other users. Perhaps you should consider trying to correspond with me instead of attacking me on someone else's talk page. Please note that I have cited a source, first of all from Wikipedia and then from elsewhere. Please note that I have modified my contribution in response to your cry of 'no original research. Finally, I value the ideal of a neutral point of view, even though one person's idea of neutrality is often another person's idea of bias. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I would like to give my opinion here. I think circumcision and it's ilk are all wrong, whether you're a man or a woman. Sex is natural. Masturbation, however, causes perversions, homosexuality, lesbianism, bestiality, rape etc.... That's my original research for today. I think this makes some interesting points: [2] 68.114.97.127 04:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Michael, is it really necessary to go into such extraordinary detail about what is contained within this website? To do so seems to interrupt the flow of the article, without adding much information that is germane to the subject. - Jakew 13:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The Hoodectomy page is being used as an authority. As such, it deserves very close scrutiny to show where it is coming from and where it is going to. For instance, it is significant that it has links to Circlist and Bmezine as well as medical articles. Michael Glass 14:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Jake, your wording here is not as clear as usual. Perhaps you were writing in haste. While I take your point about the word 'authority' it is certinly being used as a source of information about a procedure that is controversial if not illegal, in many jurisdictions. Therefore it deserves very close scrutiny. No value judgment is expressed or implied in the passage. It is up to the reader to determine what to think of the links. Information about them will help the reader to make up his or her mind. Michael Glass 15:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that it is SOOO wrong. Who has the right to basically torture women??? Why do women have to get the sexual pleasure taken away but not the men? Women are equal with men. I think its wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.193.29 ( talk) 21:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC) The changes that have been made to the passage are an improvement. I have a few other changes in mind. I think it serves a useful purpose for the Wiki reader to know the names of the organisations that are in favour of this procedure. Michael Glass 08:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
This part of the article contains much unsubstantiated information. I believe that it should he linked to credible information or the unsubstantiated information should be removed. Michael Glass 08:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Michael, could you find another source for the following text: "(Sunna circumcision, named after one of the Islamic traditions, may or may not involve the removal of part of the clitoris as well as the prepuce [3].)"
The problem is that the source cited doesn't mention Sunna circumcision at all. Also, the sentence would be better moved to the following paragraph, which discusses the relationship of clitoridotomy to other descriptions (eg type 1). I feel that the introductory paragraph should focus on the heading itself, rather than side issues. Jakew 12:43, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
This isn't an issue of neutrality - circumcission is a neutral word to many. This isn't an issue of fair treatment - if it was, the opinions of sufferers would determine the word used and would likely be mutilation. This is an issue of trying to whitewash an issue by using an innocuous name.
Circumcision is an accepted term - by everyone who isn't trying to invent new euphamisms - for lopping off parts of the genitals for medically unsound, yet generally harmless reasons. It's definite POV to insist on another word for what is already well described.
The rationality for this argument is that there are three groups, pro, neutral, and anti, and that all three must agree (or equally disagree) before something is POV free. This is a logically falacy - the truth in an issue isn't distributed directly between the opinions of all involved, nor is it a stretchy friendly thing that can be manipulated until everyone is happy.
Furthermore, neutrality is in not misrepresenting facts, nor providing an unfairly biased report. In everything there is some bias - nobody writes NPOV articles about belly parasites - we generally are safe to assume that because they are harmful and painful, they are a bad thing. Nobody has to write "the widely misunderstood stomach parasite ..." Ditto, I say, with genital mutilation.
Simply because this is a ritual that many are attached to, the rest of the world is supposed to act as if it's as medically sound as an appendectomy, just to avoid casting aspersions on someone who wants practice it on their daughter's body. Why don't we call the page "Candy"? Everyone loves Candy, especially little children!
Call the article female circumcision. It's what *everyone* else calls it. Nobody is going to the UNFPA to find out the politically correct terms before trying to find the wikipedia article.
I have noticed in the literature that there are three different ways of describing the procedures done on women's genitals:
I believe that there are significant problems with using the term 'Female Circumcision'
For all these reasons I would suggest that we look at 'Female Genital Cutting' as a preferable title.
What do others think? Michael Glass 02:21, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Jake. I think the following passages from the UNFPA are worth pondering:
As you said, this document confirms my contention that the term FGM is used by opponents of the practice and that FGC is more neutral. The fact that 'female circumcision' is used by some to condemn male circumcision and by others to justify female genital cutting is another strike against it. However, the greatest objection is its tendency to confuse the issues involved. Michael Glass 14:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that 'female circumcision' devalues 'male circumcision' Jenchurch
For all these reasons I would suggest that we look at 'Female Genital Cutting' as a preferable title.
I of course had to throw in my two cents:
I think that the term circumcision in general is a euphemism whether used to describe a procedure done to boys or girls. In both cases the term is primarily used by those in favour of it. It is very similiar to an argument recently waged on the circumcision page about the use of the term uncircumcised vs. intact. A large number of people, including many circumcisionists favoured the term uncircumcised while a large minority were split between intact and any other term. Then of course the revelation surfaced that uncircumcised itself as defined by presumably neutral dictionary.com (does anyone care to argue that dictionary.com is an anti-circumcision organization) as a religious term meaning heathen -- obviously a word loaded with negative conntations. Ironically those in favour of the term uncircumcised had been using the argument that intact was loaded, but, to my knowledge couldn't provide anywhere near as compelling evidence to support it. Ever since there has been an onslaught of people with very sketchy arguments trying to have the section about the term uncircumcised = heathen removed, probably in an attempt to shield the term from critism for fear that intact will prevail. My point? The terms are all very loaded and vary widely depending on perspective, so please, if you feel the term is loaded, you must provide rock solid information to support that conclusion. Even if you do be prepared to be challenged. I do not in the end care which term is adopted, but I do hope there is consistency been the terms used for males and females so that we can all see that mutilation of the genitals is not limited to one sex and please don't try to make it a special case when done to one sex or the other. Mutilation is mutilation. Sirkumsize 12:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
What we need to do here is have a vote. Whether people like it or not, both terms are POV in one way or another. I propose changing this article's name back to Female circumcision, simply because this is the most common term used. You can do a simple Yahoo! search to prove this...I type in "Female circumcision" and I recieve 1,390,000 hits. I type in "Female genital cutting" and I get 402,000 hits. As you can see, the former term is used almost three times more than the latter term. Both mean the same thing, both are POV. We need to change the article back to the name most commonly used. -- Mad Max 20:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Mutilation is more accurate, & it's the accepted term used by many in the international & national medical, legal & human rights fields. It is, from talking with friends, a dangerous & sometimes lethal mutilation. dick 21:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"parents understandably resent the suggestion that they are “mutilating” their daughters" - some parents would resent the suggestion that they traditionally sell their daughters into sexual slavery but this is a fact. -- Vladko 15:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Vladko: apples and oranges. One is objective fact, as you correctly point out (did they or did they not sell the child into slavery? yes or no?). The other is a cultural/subjective value judgement: was that genital modification a mutilation or an enhancement? Different people, in different cultural environments, will answer differently. That the genitals are modified by FGC is a fact, and not in question; the questionable part (the non-factual part) has to do with the aesthetic or other value of said modification. Different strokes for different folks. See comments directly below. See also the Schweder article referenced and excerpted in the section far below. See also the Boddy book referenced and excerpted in the section far below (near bottom of this page as of mid-July 2007). -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "Mutilation":
The word "mutilation" can be, and often is, based on culturally-constructed value judgement. The fancy keloidal scars of some traditional african cultures, for example, might be called "mutilations" by some, but they are decorative and attractive to others, namely those who have them and create them. Voluntary limb amputations might be considered mutilations by most people, but I gather that there are those who have them and want them. So, who is to say? The extremity of something like voluntary amputation (!) leads me to consider that maybe my phrase "often is", in the first sentence, is too cautious. Maybe "mutilation" is always either culturally constructed, or subjective in origin. In any case, the focus here should be on the procedures which are carried out involuntarily, on young women not yet at the age of consent; this is where there is a human rights issue. I don't see the point of bickering about cultural/subjective aesthetics when they are chosen by individuals of age. I, personally, percieve some body-piercing extremes to be on the borderline of "mutilations", but that doesn't mean that I have the right to insist that they be described as such in an encyclopedia. That's my idiosyncratic reaction, not a representation of objective fact. -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
PS: From the standpoint of the majority of women who seek genital modification (which is the majority of women who have it), it is in no way "mutilation", but rather enhancement or beautification. Those are facts, which you can ascertain by studying the issue (just spend some time reading about it). Those are facts, but they would not justify calling this article "Female Genital Enhancement", since "enhancement" is a cultural/subjective value judgement. The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter. -- Alan2012 14:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the table of links about abuse lodged within the (still of questionable neutrality? do we still need that lable?) FGC and HUman Rights section. If whoever put that in there insists on equating this ritual practice with abuse, you are welcome to insert a non-pov paragraph discussing who believes this and why with citable sources. I will then offer a follow up paragraph with citable sources that do not believe all or even most fgc rituals qualify as abuse. ~FreddieResearch —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freddieresearch ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 27 September 2005
Added "most" because Abusharof's article in Female "Circumcision" in Africa" mentions Sudanese feminists and human rights activists who do not actively oppose the ritual. Moreover, the African Union's human rights charter conspicuously makes no mention of FGC (FGM, whatever) rituals, though it was written after many very public anti-fgc human rights charters were published. ~FreddieResearch
The Canada bit says "Canada, just running the risk of female genital mutilation is already sufficient reason to obtain the political asylum status". Can someone confirm it is all forms of FGC? If so, we should change the wording to FGC for consistency and neutrality purposes. If it only applies to certain forms, this should be clarified and the FGM bit removed... Nil Einne 18:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
There was inconsistency in the statements about Indonesia. In the bit about where it is practices it states " In Indonesia the practice is almost universal among the country's Muslim women; however, in contrast to Africa, almost all are Type I or Type IV (involving a symbolic prick to release blood) procedures". However in the bit about Type II/clitoridectomy it stated: "It is, however, quite common in Indonesia and many countries of sub-Saharan Africa, east-Africa, Egypt, Sudan, and the Arabian Peninsula". I am pretty sure the first statement is correct and so have removed Indonesia from the bit about type II. If you are confident I am incorrect, you're welcome to correct the article but please provide evidence if possible... Nil Einne 18:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
With regards to Malaysia, a few quick searches and from what I recall having read and heard before (I'm Malaysian) female circumscion is quite common among Malaysian Muslims (or at least Malaysian Malay Muslims). As they make up 65% of the population, the 'certain ethnic groups' as per the original article doesn't sound right. I'm not really sure whether the practice is nearly 'universal' among Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, I suspect not so I've also clarified this. If you can find evidence or are resonably it is nearly universal, go ahead and correct it. Nil Einne 18:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I feel the article needs a bit more with regards to the different forms of HGC and human rights etc issues. To my knowledge, most condemations and human rights groups tend to concentrate on ending type II & III but don't care so much about type I and type IV prick type circumscion. While many may still be against I and IV it generally doesn't appear to be a big concern for them. For example, you don't here much of a fuss about FGC in Malaysia and Indonesia. In fact, I don't know if any women's groups from there have ever even had it as part of their agenda (c.f. Africa). The article does mention a bit about the way the different types are treated and regarded but IMHO not enough. Nil Einne 19:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get hold of some? Be good to break up the article, maybe, and clarify things.
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello again, Freddie. I'm curious as to your lower edit in this last change, regarding sexual pleasure. If you're implying that sexual pleasure outside of the clitoris exists and is not impeded by circumcision, you should reread the original paragraph; it specifically refers only to pleasure derived from the external part of the clitoris being lost when that specific portion is amputated. Are you trying to say that a missing appendage can still be stimulated? That's not the appropriate paragraph to make the "other forms of pleasure" argument, imo. Respectfully as ever, - Kasreyn 06:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I was unclear. Research from Carla Obermeyer 2003, Ellen Gruenbaum 200(2?) and the personal experience of Fuambai Ahmadu (sp?), Sierra Leonian anthropologists suggests that the sensitivity of the clitoris (and the clitoris iself) extends far deeper than that which is removed during a 'circumcision operation', even in its most extreme forms. To fully amputate the clitoris one would have to, pardon my bluntness, dig for it. I would be interested in knowing where the sensitive spots are on a male subincised penis. If you want to see something freaky, Kasreyn, check that out! ~FreddieResearch
THE W.H.O. AND U.N. DEFINE THIS ACT AS FGM. IT SHOULD BE CHANGED.
I've gone through the article and standardized all references to "FGC". I don't personally agree with the use of the term, but a majority of editors on this issue seem (to me) to prefer it for reasons of NPOV. As it was, the article was saying FGC in some areas and FGM in others. I'm certainly up for debate on changing it to "circumcision", though, since that's what the article is currently titled. - Kasreyn 02:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Thank you. Research2006 02:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Female Circumcision" is a "vague and misleading expression" (Daly 156) that refers to sunna circumcision, clitoridectomy, and excision and infibulation (or pharaonic circumcision). "Female Circumcision" masks the horrors of this mutilation.
By using the term "circumcision," female genital mutilation (FGM) is equated with male circumcision. Male circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. In male circumcision, the foreskin (or prepuce) is removed from the penis. The circumcised male can usually preform sexual functions normally. He can also orgasm. There are some risks when performing a male circumcision, including but not limited to infection and hemorrhaging. Sunna circumcision is when the clitoral hood (or prepuce) and/or the tip of the clitoris are/is removed. When only the clitoral hood is removed, this is parallel to male circumcision.
Other forms of FGM are not parallel to male circumcision. Clitoridectomy (or excision) is the removal of the entire clitoris. The labia minora and external genitalia may be removed as well. In excision and infibulation a clitoridectomy is performed. The sides of the vulva are then joined. The woman must be cut open for intercourse and childbirth. When the clitoris is removed, the woman is no longer able to orgasm. After infibulation, a woman cannot perform sexual functions normally. Because sex can never be enjoyable for a mutilated woman (and in fact it is usually very painful), it cannot be equated to male circumcision.
Female genital mutilation is the only term that fully encompasses what actually happens. Circumcision excludes excision and infibulation. Female genital cutting excludes infibulation. The term "Female Circumcision" is a misnomer when it refers to anything besides the removal of the clitoral hood. "Female Circumcision" obscures the facts. The term female genital mutilation is a better reflection of the facts.
Work Cited
Daly, Mary. Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism. 2nd ed. Boston, MA: Beacon, 1990. 156.
It seems to me that those who are insistent upon their Non Point of View doctrine have not offered up much aside from that repeated declaration. Those who have petitioned according to their principles or opinions have made a commendable effort and typically eloquent and/or well researched arguments. This uter stagnation of progress in the response to those who have petitioned for action or a change is reprehensible.
pixiequix 11:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
This term is POV and biased. FGM can be said the same. The only between is FGC, so I don't know why this page was moved to Female circumcision. I'll be moving it back and if there's an objection, we can discuss. Redwolf24 ( talk) 04:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the text regarding awareness of the ability to call the police, from the Law and Order bit. It's not sourced and it's not derived from any other information included in the article, so it's clearly original research. Furthermore, I don't know (and doubt the person who added it knows) whether female genital cutting is illegal in NYC or not. Law and Order is set in a fictionalized New York, anyway; the show's writers can alter actual laws as much as they need for plot purposes. - Kasreyn 02:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
There are similarities and differences between "circumcision" and "genital mutilation".
Similarities:
Differences:
I think the above 4 points have been objectively established. I hope they are in the article, or will go into it. -- Uncle Ed 17:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I did read all that. You gloss over clitoris removal; some authorities assert that this affects sexual functioning. You also gloss over ability to have voluntary intercourse; clearly when the labia are sewn shut intercourse becomes difficult or impossible.
Let's try to separate advocaty from objective encyclopedia writing. Say rather that:
By attributing claims to the advocates who make them, we can craft an article which does not take sides, but rather describes the dispute between the sides fairly. -- Uncle Ed 18:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
In and out of the article:
This is good general knowledge, and if it had a source it could stay in the article. Can someone google it or otherwise attribute it as a Point Of View or a solid fact? -- Uncle Ed 23:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I thing they shall be no FGC's.
Gemini531 02:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)Gemini531
I don't care who the hell's opinion is of what; this article is just plain damn WRONG! It says that FGC is the "official" term, well BULLSHIT- the Official term for the act described is termed FGM by the W.H.O. Or is there a new place that claims the authority to set international standards?
This article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5039536.stm is a headline from today's (6/2/2006) BBC News. That means that people all over the world are going to be looking up FGM, and when they come here they are going ton get this FGC bullshit. I petition for this article to go back to it's original title using FGM.
I aplolgize for being crass, but nobody here seems to respect anything I say. And, presuming that this will be ignored also... wtf ever.
pixiequix 16:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I posted the following paragraph to the end of the medical consequences section, to discuss a recent WHO study which I think adds a significant concern to the list of possible medical consequences:
"A recent study by the WHO, published in the Lancet on the 1st of June 2006, has cast doubt on the safety of genital cutting of any kind. This study was conducted on a cohort of 28,393 women attending for singleton delivery at 28 obstetric centres in areas of Burkina Faso, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Senegal and Sudan with a fairly high proportion of mothers having FGC. According to the WHO criteria, all types of FGC were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby (15% for type I, 32% for type 2, and 55% for type 3). Mothers with FGC type III were also found to have 30% more caesarean sections and a 70% increase in postpartum haemorrhage compared to women without FGC. It was estimated from these results and a rough estimate of the proportion of mothers in Africa with different kinds of FGC that in the African context an additional 10 to 20 per thousand babies die during delivery as a result of this process."
Does everyone think this is a fair treatment of the study in question, and fair to include in the article? I've basically given the results as the WHO reported them, except for using "FGC" in place of "FGM"
I have restored all quoted instances of the traditional "Praise Be Upon Him" to this paragraph. Note that including the traditional blessing is inappropriate in original encyclopedic content (as established at article Islam), but when we are directly quoting a source, such as Mr. Abu-Sahlieh, the exact words of the source must be reproduced. This is not showing any POV favoritism towards Islam as the blessing is clearly within quotations and ascribed to Mr. Abu-Sahlieh. Kasreyn 22:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
trying to get a handle on the issue, i wanted to see what this was all about, visually. google images points to a picture on the swedish wikipedia. are we too shy to illustrate, or even diagram? i choose not to fix this myself, as i'm new to wikipedia and insufficiently familiar with community standards.
While reading this section I noticed that in the anecdote about the conversation between Mohammed and Um Habibah the words 'Praise Be Upon Him' are repeated after each mention of Mohammed's name. I understand that this is common in Islamic writings, and that Muslims are obligated to say it after speaking the name, however I am not sure if this gives an impresion of neutrality. I think that a balence between the curent state of this section and a religion-free version could be reached by limiting the phrase 'Praise Be Upon Him' to it's first occurance only, which is curently linked to an explination page, or by replacing the phrase with 'Peace Be Upon Him' which I believe is also aceptable and has a more neutral tone. What say you? -- Wirewood Shadow 01:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with the former point of Wirewood Shadow, PBUH is unacceptable. I added this quotation to the article and can assure all that in its original form, there was no PBUH following the name of Muhammad. I think it absurd that somebody felt they had a right to add it and when I removed it once, it reappeared the next day. Wikipedia is surely no place for religious expressions of this nature, especially when editing a quotation in which those words were no longer originally there.
Muhammad is not my prophet and as this quoatation should make clear, is no great moral teacher either - he supported female genital mutilation, as well as male genital mutilation, which is the reason that most Muslims men and some Muslim women are mutilated today. I will also remind those who like to add PBUH to his name, that Muhammad married a nine year old girl with whom he shortly consummated the marriage.
I hereby give notice that I intend to remove the PBUHs again, and will be most disappointed if they reappear a second time.
-- Amyers 09:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I am certain that the original text had no PBUH, neither Peace Be Upon Him nor Praise Be Upon Him. If anybody would like to check the source, go to the following website:
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/aldeeb1/#Chapter2
Go to "3. The Sunnah"
-- Amyers 09:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not revert modified page until you have adressed the pre-existing discussion under the heading "No Pictures?" above. The photo remains on the page, but i have moved it to the infibulation section of the page because it illustrates the first half of the infibulation process. I have also modified the caption to make the picture more accurate. Once again, it is still there, you just have to scroll down a little to see it. Do not replace until you respond here in the talk page. Freddieresearch 20:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Check out this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5039536.stm This is evidence of the common cultural usage. Or is the terminology used in a BBC headline not reflective of what the common usage is? If nothing, it clearly demonstrates the mindset of those wanting to restrain the page under the heading FGC.
This article shows that its banned in africa - cause may cause death: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5109094.stm
Seems to be say that fgm only occurs or mostly occurs in sub-saharan africa. I ask people to look at this because it primarily occurs in the muslim arabian nations and not sub-saharan africa. Egypt has the highest rate on the map and it is not in sub-sahran africa. I know people are going to object to me so I amtelling you now to go research it because you will see it is a Islamic practice or practice done in primarily islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and not subsahran africa
Is there any significance to the fact that cUmdat as-Sālik (Reliance of the Traveler) says that circumcision for men and women is obligatory? It follows the Shāficī madhhab, and the commentary also discusses how the Shāficī position differs from that in the Ḥanafī and Ḥanbalī madhāhib. Kitabparast 20:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on clitoridotomy, these two paragraphs:
These two paragraphs seem to be refuring to both clitoridotomy and/or clitoridectomy. They might belong more in the clitoridectomy section.
I don't fancy with the popular cultural explanation of FGM. Because if you look at the map carefully, the areas where FGM is often exercised are Sub-Saharan countries. I think this must be due to the famine. Local people might have adopted this tradition in order to curb the birth rate by controling the female sexuality, so that the already lacking natural resources would be sufficient to the living people. Any ideas?
Thank you for the article you provided for me; however, I didn't mean to edit and add my argument. I thought there might be someone to verify this famine argument. Because I have read that in "primitive" tribes there can be "cruel" but essential measures (like even killing the infants) are taken to control the population growth. FGM might have been one of them.
Where is the image 'infibulation.jpg'? Did it get deleted? It is not present on old versions of the page(it is a redlink) or on the swedish wikipedia(I am still investigating this). How did we get it copied from the swedish wikipedia in the first place and how do we get it back? Christopher 19:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This seems incorrect. I seem to recall reading that Medicare(or Blue Cross or whoever) covered FGC until the mid seventies. Even assuming that no doctors took advantage of this coverage, surely the 1996 bill outlawing FGC would have been significantly less necessary if there was not a chance of a doctor performing FGC on them. Christopher 15:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Whis figure is correct? Reference 11 leads to a website that does not seem to have the facts, but I seriously doubt that clitorectomy stopped in 1958. I wouldn't be suprised if one could still 'get the snip' by simply finding a really old doctor. Christopher 20:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)It was sometimes practiced in English-speaking nations well after the first half of the Twentieth Century, ostensibly to stop masturbation. [10]. Blue Cross Blue Shield paid for clitoridectomies in the U.S.A. until 1977 [11]
Here is a quote on the 1990's bill you mentioned:
"Also on the National Level, Congresswoman Patricia Shroeder introduced H.R. 3247, a bill to outlaw FGM in the United States in the fall of 1994. The bill was then combined with The Minority Health Initiatives Act, H.R.3864. This bill was then combined with H.R. 941 on February 14, 1995, which was to be cited as the "Federal Prohibition of
Female Genital Mutilation of 1995."
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.220.40.109 ( talk • contribs) 15:00, September 27, 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a template for this kind of thing, but this will do.
I think a page should be set up just called Circumcision. Male and female should both be on these pages. References to the mutilation of child genitalia to reduce sexual pleasure (although not ending any pleasure, the procedure greatly reduces sensitivity) should all be on one page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dab182 ( talk • contribs) 11:20, October 2, 2006.
FGM and male Circumcision have completely different social dynamics. Combining them would require spending more time defining the differences rather than the similarities. Also male circumcision fulfills a valid medical function, which female mutilation does not. Atom 20:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with the concerns about size. If you were to do it, you could have an article that was brief, and gave a general overview of the complete topic, and each area. And then a link to each of the sub-articles. That might actually be beneficial in that some of the things in the circumcision article could be broken up into sub-articles too, in a kind of tree. Maybe even arguments for, and arguments against in different sub-articles might help things. Personally, by objection to putting them together is that circumcision has a valid medical use, where female circumcision/mutilation is totally unnecessary. The primary reason for circumcision is (flawed or not) for better medical health. The primary reason for mutilating women is to prevent them from having sexual pleasure. Vastly different. Doctors do not say that male circumcision is not medically valid, they say that the risks outweigh the benefits slightly, and that it should not be a routine medical procedure, leaving the decision to the parents. I'm not advocating it, only saying that there are medical benefits for male circumcision, and none for FGM. Atom 00:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
JakeW was correct in suggesting that this is not the place for that discussion. I was not offering my opinion, but stating what the predominant view of Doctors seems to be(currently). I was not trying to justify male circumcision, only suggesting that it is, in fact, different than FGC and FGM. Regardless, an integation is possible. I think to do that, and to get the very vocal people from both sides involved, it would be good to have an outline, or an example of what the main article might look like. If you like, I can provide a location on the Sexology and Sexuality Project for people to work on a rough draft of the top level article/overview in the tree. Also as part of that we could discuss what sorts of guidelines we want to use in working on the project (to avoid conflict). For instance, to provide an article off the main article for circumcision opponents and proponents. Reiterate that we wand facts and not opinions, and to assume good faith. In this way, providing NPOV rough draft of the page before suggesting the integration would allow for a better chance of success. Atom 22:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Cheers for all the comments, just thought I’d put the idea out there and see what you had to say – which was quite a lot!
The Circumcision main page has a link here anyway so at least they are recognised as similar even if its as HGC – (Human)
As for all these medical reasons, well, you would not perform an operation for a cleft lip if the patient didn’t have one - just like one shouldn’t perform circumcision on someone who doesn’t require it –having phimosis is a valid medical reason, but as for it being cleaner!! Wash yourself - lol – dave London – thanks-- Dab182 15:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No move Duja ► 17:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Female genital cutting → Female Genital Mutilation — The practice is widely known as "Female Genital Mutilation" which gets 969000 hits on Google while "Female Genital Cutting" only gets 133000 hits. Thus I requested that the page be renamed to "Female Genital Mutilation". CltFn 13:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC) The United Nations and Amnesty International officially refer to it as Female Genital Multilation [ [6]], [ [7]]. Thus is makes sense that we would follow the naming convention of authoritative and officially recognized global institutions. updated by -- CltFn 05:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
definition of mu·ti·late from [ dictionary.com] (emphasis added, of course): 1. to *injure*, *disfigure*, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts 2. **to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.** OR Mutilation in Online Medical Dictionary: "*Disfigurement or injury* by *removal or destruction* of a conspicuous or *essential part of the body*."
While "Mutilation" may elicit a negative emotion it is both accurate and appropriate in a linguistic and medical sense. "Cutting" on the other hand is both wrongly insufficient and disingenious (see below). Amputation, cancer, haemorrhage, decapitation and many other words also accurately and correctly used to describe forms of damage to a body may elicit a similar emotional response - that is because we don't like thinking about the damage, not because they are improperly biased words. In fact, it is just that they do convey that there is damage done that they affect us so. It is not a *moral* judgment, which is where this must remain neutral. "Horrible female genital mutilation" would not fly, but FMG is correct. I don't see how it can be argued that cutting in these forms does not "injure" the genitals. Removal of the clitoris certainly fits the second definition! If you think otherwise I suggest you poll the women you know and ask them if it should be considered an essential part. Essential for what? How about clitoral orgasms? There are multiple types of orgasms, that is just one. Retained ability to have other types does not at all imply the clitoris is not essential for clitoral orgasms.
FGM is the term used ~nine times more frequently in the literature (e.g. 459 uses vs. 51 in pubmed), declared propper by the WHO and the rest of the UN, and is the term people will be looking it up by.
Lastly, "cutting" is disingenious. When used in reference to wounds it strongly implies a linear penetration, rather than amputation or the other various wounds this involves. Cutting also implies to some degree that it could heal to original or near-original state, but, again, it often involves amputation and/or grave scarring that is intended to close off the vagina. If your hand was cut off in an accident I doubt you would even begin to understand why someone insisted that mutilate was an incorrect term and insisted you say you "cut your arm", even though they could show you definitions of cut that suggest it could be used. -- Fitzhugh 08:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
(Moved by Jakew 09:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)) Jakew 09:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I would be interested in NPOV (neutral point of view) of the article.
IMHO, it is damaged to some point, by calling also male circumcision a "mutilation". The difference between male and female circumcision should be stated clear. We ought to go past shame and false morals and scientifically and theologically skim over the matter.
Male circumcision is a sign of Abraham's covenant. It's meaning could be in doing something ritual to male penis, so it is no longer like the one of Adam, so it's function should be dedicated to Jahweh, and no longer to the one whom Adam and Eve listened and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Sacrifice for doing this must include blood. This does not severe ability to enjoy sex, but symbolically represents dedicating sexuality and offspring to LORD.
The religions demand male circumcision on 8th day. St Paul says circumcision is no longer required in NT as we have the better sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
Female circumcision is never mentioned in Bible, neither I have found the reference in Qor'an, for the latter not being an learned scholar.
We should technically have both terms: female circumcision and female mutilation. Surgical removal of clitoris is quite clearly the latter (it is removed, not circum-cised, cut around). Rationale: male circumcision does not reduce man's ability to enjoy sex (many witness the contrary)- top , most sensitive, part of penis is not removed, rather an unimportant part of skin with function as important or less than appendix.
With female removal of clitoris, the woman's ability to enjoy sex is severed, therefore it is mutilation, not circumcision. It is henceforth a very cruel act.
Female circumcision as a term would define operation similar to male circumcision, as a symbolic rather than harmful act, as a religious ritual performing removal of insignificant part of female genitalia's skin which would not reduce the ability to enjoy sex, but would include letting of blood for ritual purposes. I know I will be attacked for this, but a religious rite cannot be banned, for it will continue in hidden, a non-harmful substitute must be found, or re-invented.
(Reader may ask with right: "Why keep anything Scripturally not requested and seemingly barbaric?", yet a girl may not be actually saved for life by merely "saving" her from clitoral extraction - she could and on average would be stigmatized, considered demonic, uncircumcised, less worth tahn circumcised, banned from marriage with circumcised man, considered predestined for fornication, promiscuity & prostitution and used that way. Some African religions will demand doing something that includes letting of blood to female genitalia to pronounce her clean, and her sexuality and offspring dedicated to good spirits instead of to demons. Of course, having Lamb of God, we have no need for such sacrifice or ritual, and it will even be found spiritually damaging for a Christian girl, same as St Paul considered circumcision for Christian men ("If you circumcise yourselves, you must fulfill all Law!").)
Similar as top of penis is not removed, female clitoris should not be removed, but rather some functionally (and aesthetically) unimportant part of genitalia skin, for the practice to be considered circumcision, not mutilation. Clitoris is no doubt an organ created by God Himself and not by Devil so harming it without a valid reason (and there seems not to be medical one in these practices) is quite clearly a sin. Clearly thereof will follow the difference between circumcision and genital mutilation, while one may find both practices existing.
Consequently and finally, woman's virtue would be very poor and sad if it would be based on inability to feel sexual pleasure rather than on spiritual strength and willful self-restraint. -- Mtodorov 69 14:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ethipia should't be on there. the map is not correct. Ethiopia is almost 90% christian and do not particippate in this ritual. The only Ethiopians that might participate are the Islamic ones and that is 10% or less of Ethiopians.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.151.151 ( talk • contribs)
"The procedure was legally practiced by doctors in the United States until 1996,{{fact}} and is still common in many developing countries, some at rates exceeding 95%.{{fact}}"
Please cite this, or we will need to remove it. Atom 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I added the World Health Organization to the list of organizations that call the practice FGM, even though the WHO is an agency of the UN. I think the WHO and the UN are distinct enough to merit their own mention. In fact, I'd be inclined to remove the UN and move the two references to the "Further Reading: Online" section, as both references are less policy and more circumstantial. Ciotog 08:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
See discussions above regarding use of FGC versus FGM. Thw UN and WHO use both terms FGC and FGM, and neither is official. In many recent documents they use both terms. The article clearly discusses that the terminology (FGC vs FGC vs Female Circumcision) is not as important as is the open discussion and elimination of the practice. In order to claim that the UN and WHO "officially" support the term FGM, we would need a reference or citation to prove and support that. None of the four references given do that, they only show that both terms are used. The reason the the UN started using the FGC term in 1996 was because of the necessity to work locally with families and religious groups in countries where the practice of FGM takes place. Calling it what it is only alientates those groups instead of helping to facilitate communication, education, and furthering the goals of eliminating FGM. So, arguing and trying to push the usupported view that one term is "official" is counter productive and needless. Whatver one chooses to call the practice, most people work on the common goal of elminating it. The reason (see other discussions above) that we have a consensus on the article being called FGC is primarily for the reasons stated here. Whatever language one wishes to use, the goals are the same. Atom 15:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kaylima: First, although we seem to differ on terminology, we are working towards the same goals. The first, I think, is elimination of FGM/FGC. The second, good and accurate articles on Wikipedia.
Meanwhile, UNFPA with local NGO Somali Family Care Network, supported two roundtable discussions in September
in Garowe and Hargeisa titled United Voice of Somali Men and Women against Female Genital Cutting/Female Genital Mutilation (FGC/FGM). The purpose was to assess current FGC/FGM practices and to analyse opportunities and constraints for engagement on the issue in order to recommend actions aimed at the elimination of FGC/FGM. The talks were open only to Somalis in order to encourage community ownership.
Population-based surveys have also been utilized in research on female genital cutting (FGC)13, a practice known to have harmful effects on girls and women and common in many societies in the northern part of sub-Saharan Africa, some societies in the Middle East and some diaspora communities in the West.14 Data on FGC has, for example, been collected in Yemen and 15 countries in Africa between 1989 and 2002 through a module in the Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS)15
You are correct that the UN has many more documents that have just FGM, or a combination of FGM and FGC than just FGC references alone. I attribute that to the more recent usage of FGC or the combination of them both together. These two references show that some official documents use FGC or FGM/FGC.
On Wikipedia, when someone types FGM or "female genital mutilation" it gets redirected to this article. So, I don't think that people will have trouble finding it.
As for Amnesty International, it is a NGO, and not affiliated with anything official at all. They do valuable work, but still are on their own. They may use the term "official", or may not, I don't know, but as they have no official standing, the term is not meaningful in that context.
And, as I have said before. Whether a term is or is not "official" is not relevant. What is important is that communication and dialog on the topic can occur by whatever name works. This article does use both terms, and discusses the issue thoroughly. I don't think that by changing the paragraph and removing official that I have blunted the language of what is said in the article at all, or caused any confusion in anyones mind as to the serious nature of the topic. Conversely, were we to add "official" I don't feel that it would make anyone reading the article to take the content more seriously. Even if it did, would it be appropriate for us to say that if it is not true? I think we all agree that improving the accuracy and relevance of this article is important. Atom 23:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't say I'm happy with the 4 + 1 reasons given for this section. 1, 3 and 4 are pretty much the same thing. The first sentence of that paragraph is pretty loaded, as well. Is there a way to say it without being quite so dramatic? Ciotog 00:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
i have to agree on you with that,. Since nobody have cared to discuss this matter in the past 6 months, and since the section does not refer to any sources, i take the liberty to completly change parts of this section, with proper citations. anyone is free discuss how good or bad the edition is. -- Broccolee 10:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
edition is completed, here is pasted what was deleted:
The main reasons for FGC can be categorized into four most common social justifications, and one financial:
- The custom and tradition of becoming a woman involves this "rite of passage" from childhood to adulthood (ensuring she is good marriage material);
- A desire to control women's sexuality (virginity, morality and marriageability);
- A cultural practice that sometimes has a religious identification (a female's honor is a reflection on her entire family, and believing it is God's will);
- Social conformity to the community; [1]
- FGC is a primary source of income for many midwives/practitioners, who propagate the practice.
I sincerly believe that the new composition is both more thorough and exhaustive. -- Broccolee 12:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this passage because it is clearly POV and added for the very purpose of expressing that POV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Cultural_and_religious_aspects
"Although the indication of this statement is grouping Muslims, Christians and Animist together, there is a great difference among the three religions and what the teach about FGC. For example, Islam condones the practice in many instances, whereas with Christianity it remains a practice among some converts who want to hold to their traditions in their respective societies even though it clearly goes against the teachings of the Bible."
I do think that the unqualified grouping of Islam, Christianity, and Animism in this context is also POV to a lesser extent, but the fact is somewhat mitigated by giving the three religions individual treatment in the following sections. Those sections could use some NPOV revising also, though.
--
70.156.89.28
04:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
user:Ed Poor recently moved the terminology discussion to around half-way into the article, and I moved it back near the top. Regardless of your feelings about FGC vs. FGM, the terminology debate is a principle one with this issue and deserves some prominence in the article. Furthermore, someone unfamiliar with the practice of FGC might be confused as to why so many referenced websites refer to the practice as "Female Genital Mutilation" without that clarification coming sooner. This is similar to the reason why a note about disambiguation appears at the top of other wiki articles, rather than at the bottom or somewhere else. Please do not move this section without reaching a consensus here first. Ciotog 19:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Moved these from main article to talk page for discussion: <!-- I think the indexes are wrong. The article is about female genital cutting but this text to edit is about infibulation. Also clicking on female circumcision takes you to the female genital cutting article. --> <!--Do we have a source showing that the advocates deny whatever it is they deny?--> Joie de Vivre 18:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Here are several comments without sources. They have been cut from the main article and placed here.
Hopefully, someone can source these. -- Joie de Vivre 17:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
See the new section below, titled "Shweder's Fall 2000 Daedalus Article on "FGM"". It could be used as a source for most of those comments. -- Alan2012 05:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a newbie making my first post, so please forgive (and educate) any naive errors but I have a factual question that may be significant with regard to neutrality.
Personally, in the interest of disclosure, I find it difficult to maintain cultural relativism on the subject. I find the disclosure of my own bias useful here because that difficulty is so common among other Westerners and an analogous bias in the opposite direction may well be found among people from cultures where these rituals are practiced. As such, the overlooking of intermediate cases (gray, or at least grayer areas, if you will), is both likely and problematic.
I can only cite a class lecture (If this would be helpful, I can and will. I have a saved form peppered with AAA style citations of the same lectures but I don't know whether that would be useful or annoying. I can also ask my professor for her bibliography if that would help), which is why this is a request for information, rather than an edit or correction, but in my gender in cross-cultural perspective class, I learned that some forms involve cutting of the labia only, whereas the article seems at least partially to overlook those cases that lie between partial or total clitoridectomy and a ritual involving only gestures symbolic of cutting.
Another thing that my professor pointed out was that a more complex understanding of the phenomenon can actually help Western feminists to work with local feminists' efforts at reform. Western feminists taking an absolute stance on the issue can sometimes give short shrift to local women's agency, which can cause them to fail to recognize, and/or have difficulty working with, local women working in the same direction as themselves.
Randomundergrad 18:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Eritrean government recently (5 april 2007) prohibited female genital cutting. I think this info should be added into the article.-- Abdullais4u 06:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no factual/actual evidence of Female Genital Mutilation in Iran, ever, yet it is mentioned twice on the page. First it is defined as ‘circumstantial evidence’, then goes into ‘shia’ tradition and claims it is ‘common’ practice. In Iran?! Why and who is making fictional claims about Iran in Wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PrivateCitizen999999999 ( talk • contribs) 03:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
. . . I am curious as to why items which have no proper citation are left as ‘information’? The situation of women under theocracy in Iran is bad enough, there is no need to make things up about it with intent of deliberately distorting and misrepresenting. : PrivateCitizen 03:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I reworded the "these procedures can be highly controversial" line to refer only clitoridectomy and infibulation. I'm not convinced that the controversy regarding clitoridotomies (the version where only the hood is touched--either split or removed entirely) is anywhere near so great, and in any case the hood is pretty much the female equivalent of the foreskin.
This is not to downplay the pointless (and medically dangerous), sexist practice of infibulation, or the even more horrific act of clitoridectomy. Both of these acts are extremely controversial (for good reason, I think) and I don't have a problem mentioning that controversy. The clitoral hood, though, if anything isn't nearly as functional as the male foreskin. This isn't meant to start a flame war; I'm just stating simple facts:
The foreskin protects the glans from chaffage. After circumcision, keratin deposits build up in glans to desensitize it. Sexually speaking, this can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the individual.
With hoodectomies, on the other hand, the clitoris is usually still very well protected by the labia majora--it is protected from chaffage even without a hood. (There is always the possibility of an exceptionally large clitoris--one that protrudes significantly beyond the lips--but these clitorises 1. Are very rare. and 2. Usually protrude beyond their hood anyway.) Thus, I strongly doubt that the clitoris glans will undergo the same keratinization as the circumcised penis' glans.
In both sexes, the removal of skin can have other sexual affects (I could go into further detail, but I don't think it's necessary to start detailing various masturbatory techniques) but the point is, only in males does it also have the effect of reducing sensitivity. Therefore, the hoodectomy is actually less important (I mean "important" in the sense of "good" or "bad", depending on your opinion of genital modification) than the male circumcision.
I can't comment on the prevalence of hoodectomies vs. the more debilitating types of FGC, but the FGC article makes mention of it and I think we should avoid lumping all FGC into "badbadbad!" while remaining neutral on male circumcision. Y es, some people do routinely condemn all FGC as evil, but I do not believe this individuals are aware that much less drastic procedures (which are much more analogous to male circumcision) exist. If someone wants to challenge this belief, they should find a reputable source that is anti-hoodectomy (hoodectomy SPECIFICALLY) on principle alone (i.e. it doesn't object to the procedure merely on the grounds that their equipment is often primative and unsterile--this is an objection that can apply to any third-world medical procedure, including male circumcision.) -- Lode Runner 09:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. If you are not familiar with male and female genitalia (either through medical knowledge or hands-on experience), please save yourself the trouble and embarassment--don't reply. I KNOW what I'm talking about.
You are making the mistake of applying Wikipedia policy regarding article content to the talk pages. See the talk page of WP:NOR for my full post. I am leading a campaign to clarify that talk pages do not fall under NOR or many of the other restrictions. What does this mean precisely? Well, basically we can discuss original research and take it into account into our decisions so long as we don't put that research in the article itself. For instance, the argument that "hoodectomies are widely condemned" is unsourced--only the argument that "female genital cutting in general is condemned" is sourced. But does this widespread condemnation apply to episiotomy or genital piercings or voluntary labiaplasty as well? Surely not. I submit to you that this is proof that controversial sort of "female genital cutting" is not the same as "all procedures which cut the female genitals." Is it synthesis? Of course. But this argument is being used to argue for removal of an UNCITED 'fact' from the encyclopedia, and this (as opposed to the addition of an uncited fact) is a valid usage of original research. If you have a reputable source (non-"fringe", as you like to say) that illustrates widespread condemnation for removal of the hood and only the hood, feel free to add it. My synthesis doesn't trump a valid, reputable source--but it does trump an uncited claim. The hoodectomy should not be miscatagorized due to the poor choice of words given by our other sources, which (again) if taken literally would apply to any medical procedure involving the vulva. My comparisons to the penis are (similarly) perfectly valid for the purposes of decision making. They are irrelevant to the article itself, but highly relevant to the talk page.
If you disagree with my interpretation of WP:NOR, feel free to debate it there. There has so far been no opposition to my proposed clarifications. Any other interpretation of WP:NOR would violate WP:IAR (i.e. if the rule is in the way of progress, screw the rule.) -- Lode Runner 06:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
On May 28 I reverted to version 132129033 for a number of reasons, too many to list in the edit summary. My concerns are as follows:
As far as the pop culture list goes, I think some time in the near future I'll create a new list article and move everything there. I agree that an open ended list shouldn't be in a larger article, but the list items do have their own merit. Ciotog 22:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
It's good to see that the issue concerning the proper usage of an acronym, FGM vs. FGC, has finally been properly addressed and discussed within the article. I wanted to pass along a "thank you" to the editor(s) who incorporated this, somewhat contentious, subject matter into the article. Great job.
pixiequix 10:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a section on sexual consequences of female genital cutting, sourcing Hanny Lightfoot-Klein's book Prisoners of Ritual. They misquote it, citing only things that demonstrate it increases women's sexual pleasure, which is not the conclusion the author comes to. That's massively NPOV as well as quoting out of context, and should not be on this page. Why is it still there? I don't even see any discussion here about it. QuizzicalBee 15:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This statement found in the artical is either very confusing or contradictory.
For instance, prohibition of the procedure among tribes in Kenya significantly strengthened resistance to British colonial rule in the 1950s and increased support for the Mau Mau guerrilla movement. During that period, the practice became even more common, as it was seen as a form of resistance towards colonial rule.
Yes, it has been banned in Egypt. Yet, the government needs to stiffen and enforce penalties and needs to investigate potential persons conducting the surgery. One needs to note that the practitioner in the Badour Shaker case was operating a clinic that was illegal in the first place. Additionally, as is apparent by a CNN report, even barbers conduct this practice. Thus, while Egypt has banned this practice, the ban does not necessarily end the wide-spread execution of this practice. [19] [20] Dogru144 09:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In case some haven't noticed in the article, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa said "It is prohibited, prohibited, prohibited." [21] Dogru144 02:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It's unclear when Image:Fgm_map.gif was updated. There's a 2005 map at [22] which was apparently constructed from public domain sources. The same data could be used to create a Wikipedia map. Though NPR [23] is reporting that the incidence in Egypt has dropped to on the order of 70%. -- Beland 19:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The article intro states:
So, why isn't this the lemma of this article?
Pjacobi 10:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The word "mutilation" can be, and often is, based on culturally-constructed value judgement. The fancy keloidal scars of some traditional african cultures, for example, might be called "mutilations" by some, but they are decorative and attractive to others, namely those who have them and create them. Voluntary limb amputations might be considered mutilations by most people, but I gather that there are those who have them and want them. So, who is to say? The extremity of something like voluntary amputation (!) leads me to consider that maybe my phrase "often is", in the first sentence, is too cautious. Maybe "mutilation" is always either culturally constructed, or subjective in origin. In any case, the focus here should be on the procedures which are carried out involuntarily, on young women not yet at the age of consent; this is where there is a human rights issue. I don't see the point of bickering about cultural/subjective aesthetics when they are chosen by individuals of age. I, personally, percieve some body-piercing extremes to be on the borderline of "mutilations", but that doesn't mean that I have the right to insist that they be described as such in an encyclopedia. That's my idiosyncratic reaction, not a matter of objective fact. -- Alan2012 01:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
PS: From the standpoint of the majority of women who seek genital modification (which is the majority of women who have it), it is in no way "mutilation", but rather enhancement or beautification. Those are facts, which you can ascertain by studying the issue (just spend some time reading about it). Those are facts, but they would not justify calling this article "Female Genital Enhancement", since "enhancement" is a cultural/subjective value judgement. The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter. This is not about trying to "write from an absolute point in empty space"; it is about accomodating a very wide diversity of personal styles and aesthetic tastes. -- Alan2012 02:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
And it's quite clear that in some cultures the practice remains an acceptable one and calling it mutilation to them is incredibly misleading and in no way NPOV. Nil Einne 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
You missed out half of the quote "It is more frequently referred to as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female circumcision (FC)." The second part is key. Supporters of the practice tend to call it FC and therefore why shouldn't we call this article by that name instead of your proposes FGM? In the end, FGC is a more neutral term that balances both views. Also, did you actually bother to read the article? I don't get how some versions type IV (which doesn't always even involve cutting) can be said to be mutilation. Even type I is not really any more mutilation then other common practices like male circumscion which is usually not referred to by the name. (N.B. Personally even though I abhor the practice particularly type II and III, I always use FGC or FC, never FGM which is too value-laden to be any used) Nil Einne 19:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
It was surprising to see that this article made no mention of anthropologist Richard Shweder's much-discussed article in the Fall 2000 Daedalus. It is fascinating and highly informative, and could not be more relevant. Here are the first few paragraphs with the link. I highly recommend a careful reading of the whole thing. Perhaps someone closer to the editing process of this page could insert it as a reference in the appropriate places. -- Alan2012 05:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3671/is_200010/ai_n8920226
What about "female genital mutilation"? And why understanding culture matters in the first place
Daedalus, Fall 2000 by Shweder, Richard A
Female genital mutilation (FGM, also known as female circumcision) has been practiced traditionally for centuries in sub-Saharan Africa. Customs, rituals, myths, and taboos have perpetuated the practice even though it has maimed or killed untold numbers of women and girls.... FGM's disastrous health effects, combined with the social injustices it perpetuates, constitute a serious barrier to overall African development. --Susan Rich and Stephanie Joyce'
On the basis of the vast literature on the harmful effects of genital surgeries, one might have anticipated finding a wealth of studies that document considerable increases in mortality and morbidity. This review could find no incontrovertible evidence on mortality, and the rate of medical complications suggests that they are the exception rather than the rule. --Carla M. Obermeyer2
Early societies in Africa established strong controls over the sexual behavior of their women and devised the brutal means of circumcision to curb female sexual desire and response. --Olayinka Koso-Thomas3
... studies that systematically investigate the sexual feelings of women and men in societies where genital surgeries are found are rare, and the scant information that is available calls into question the assertion that female genital surgeries are fundamentally antithetical to women's sexuality and incompatible with sexual enjoyment. --Carla M. Obermeyer4
Those who practice some of the most controversial of such customs--clitoridectomy, polygamy, the marriage of children or marriages that are otherwise coerced--sometimes explicitly defend them as necessary for controlling women and openly acknowledge that the customs persist at men's insistence. --Susan M. Okin5
It is difficult for me--considering the number of ceremonies I have observed, including my own-- to accept that what appear to be expressions of joy and ecstatic celebrations of womanhood in actuality disguise hidden experiences of coercion and subjugation. Indeed, I offer that the bulk of Kono women who uphold these rituals do so because they want to--they relish the supernatural powers of their ritual leaders over against men in society, and they brace the legitimacy of female authority and, particularly, the authority of their mothers and grandmothers. --Fuambai Ahmadu6
BY RITES A WOMAN: LISTENING TO THE MULTICULTURAL VOICES OF FEMINISM
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1999, Fuambai Ahmadu, a young African scholar who grew up in the United States, delivered a paper at the American Anthropological Association meeting in Chicago that should be deeply troubling to all liberal freethinking people who value democratic pluralism and the toleration of "differences" and who care about the accuracy of cultural representations in our public-policy debates.
Ahmadu began her paper with these words:
I also share with feminist scholars and activists campaigning against the practice [of female circumcision] a concern for women's physical, psychological and sexual well-being, as well as for the implications of these traditional rituals for women's status and power in society. Coming from an ethnic group [the Kono of Eastern Sierra Leone] in which female (and male) initiation and "circumcision" are institutionalized and a central feature of culture and society and having myself undergone this traditional process of becoming a "woman," I find it increasingly challenging to reconcile my own experiences with prevailing global discourses on female "circumcision."7
Coming-of-age ceremonies and gender-identity ceremonies involving genital alterations are embraced by, and deeply embedded in the lives of, many African women, not only in Africa but in Europe and the United States as well. Estimates of the number of contemporary African women who participate in these practices vary widely and wildly between eighty million and two hundred million. In general, these women keep their secrets secret. They have not been inclined to expose the most intimate parts of their bodies to public examination and they have not been in the habit of making their case on the op-ed pages of American newspapers, in the halls of Congress, or at academic meetings. So it was an extraordinary event to witness Fuambai Ahmadu, an initiate and an anthropologist, stand up and state that the oft-repeated claims "regarding adverse effects [of female circumcision] on women's sexuality do not tally with the experiences of most Kono women," including her own.8 Ahmadu was twenty-two years old and sexually experienced when she returned to Sierra Leone to be circumcised, so at least in her own case she knows what she is talking about. Most Kono women uphold the practice of female (and male) circumcision and positively evaluate its consequences for their psychological, social, spiritual, and physical well-being. Ahmadu went on to suggest that Kono girls and women feel empowered by the initiation ceremony (see quotation, above) and she described some of the reasons why.
Ahmadu's ethnographic observations and personal testimony may seem astonishing to readers of Daedalus. In the social and intellectual circles in which most Americans travel it has been so "politically correct" to deplore female circumcision that the alarming claims and representations of anti-"FGM" advocacy groups (images of African parents routinely and for hundreds of years disfiguring, maiming, and murdering their female children and depriving them of their capacity for a sexual response) have not been carefully scrutinized with regard to reliable evidence. Nor have they been cross-examined by freethinking minds through a process of systematic rebuttal. Quite the contrary; the facts on the ground and the correct moral attitude for "good guys" have been taken to be so self-evident that merely posing the rhetorical question "what about FGM?" is presumed to function as an obvious counterargument to cultural pluralism and to define a clear limit to any feelings of tolerance for alternative ways of life. This is unfortunate, because in this case there is good reason to believe that the case is far less onesided than supposed, that the "bad guys" are not really all that bad, that the values of pluralism should be upheld, and that the "good guys" may have rushed to judgment and gotten an awful lot rather wrong.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - Next
Along the same lines as the above (Shweder), this is a new book by Janice Boddy:
SNIPPETS:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8414.html http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c8414.html http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i8414.html
Civilizing Women: British Crusades in Colonial Sudan
Janice Boddy, Princeton U Press, 2007
[...snip...]
Civilizing Women is a riveting exploration of the disparate worlds of British colonial officers and the Muslim Sudanese they sought to remake into modern imperial subjects. Focusing on efforts to stop female circumcision in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan between 1920 and 1946, Janice Boddy mines colonial documents and popular culture for ethnographic details to interleave with observations from northern Sudan, where women's participation in zƒr spirit possession rituals provided an oblique counterpoint to colonial views.
[...snip...]
The tendency for female genital cutting to overdetermine perceptions of northern Sudan is not unusual. Indeed, no other cultural practice that refigures human bodies is more vilified in the Western press than what it calls "female genital mutilation" or "FGM."
[...snip...]
Over the past two decades or more, a highly visible international crusade to end female genital cutting (FGC) has taken place, aimed at African countries such as Sudan. While those who practice FGC belong to a variety of religions, the majority are Muslims, and the custom is said to support premarital chastity, strongly associated with Islam. The issue has arisen in debates about the "clash of civilizations," between Islamic societies -- often labeled "medieval" and "barbaric" -- and the "civilized" West. As Richard Shweder notes, "the global campaign against what has been gratuitously and invidiously labeled "female genital mutilation" remains a flawed game whose rules have been fixed by the rich nations of the world."3 This book describes an opening test match in that game, set in Sudan during the first half of the twentieth century under British colonial rule. I offer it as an extended critique of the continuing campaign, the discourse that informs it, and the imperialist logic that sustains it even now.
[...snip...]
Much literature on the subject is moralizing and polemical, and regularly alienates those in positions to stimulate change... [I]n cases too numerous to list, self-righteous critics present and past have leaped to condemn what they've only presumed to understand, citing unverified statistics culled from other disparaging publications, relying on self-reference and reiteration to create the truth of their cause.12 Their typical verdict: that female genital cutting regularly kills, has no valid meaning, and is inflicted on ignorant and powerless women by sadistic men.13
My research warns that this view is mistaken, born of little contextual data and a specifically Euro-American set of ideas about person, agency, and gender. I am not arguing that we can reposition an elusive Archimedean point to achieve greater "objectivity"; one can never be truly outside of a culture, there is no such nonplace to be, no "view from nowhere."14 To say that one's culture guides and perhaps mystifies understanding is incontestable and trite; taken to its logical conclusion, it applies to analysts as well as their subjects, granting Western critics no unmediated purchase on the practices they decry. Admitting one's situatedness clarifies one's responsibility to take seriously what people have to say for themselves, to credit the contexts of their lives. Insight comes neither by Olympian fiat nor through spurious, if therapeutic, empathy.
[...snip...]
This book is not only about colonial efforts to end infibulation in Sudan, or the shape of a colonial venture in one small part of the world. It is also a protracted allegory for imperialism in the early twenty-first century. The dark impress of the colonial past is palpable in today's Darfur and the long-standing conflict between northern and southern Sudan.21 Indeed, so much of the current era, the strained relations between Christianity and Islam, claims of "civilization" and "barbarism," individualism and communal values, is a complicated echo of former times.22
[...snip...]
I just omitted the last portion of THIS passage, from the "Medical Consequences" section:
"The failure to use sterile medical instruments may lead to infections and the spread of disease, such as HIV, especially when the same instruments are used to perform procedures on multiple women.[10]"
Reference number 10 is:
EAST AFRICAN MEDICAL JOURNAL, Volume 69 Number 9: Pages 479-482, September 1992. THE RISK OF MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS AFTER FEMALE CIRCUMCISION M. A. DIRIE and G. LINDMARK
.......... the full text is available online, and it says nothing about HIV or AIDS.
Is there some other reference which establishes a relation?
-- Alan2012 14:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Further along the lines of Shweder and Boddy:
This book is too new to be in most libraries or for there to be more detailed online reviews available. Nevertheless, from the brief descriptions and chapter titles one can get the gist.
Note the mention of "frequent marginalization of African women's voices in debates over FGC". This is emphasized by Shweder and others. There's a lot of racism, classism and (even!) sexism in this whole mess, along with cultural imperialism.
-- Alan2012 15:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/welcome.jsp?source=rss&isbn=0813540267
Transcultural Bodies: Female Genital Cutting in Global Context
Hernlund, Ylva Shell-Duncan, Bettina
ISBN: 0813540267
Rutgers
œ22.50*
Publication date: 01 July 2007
ISBN 0813540267 DEWEY 392.1
Full description
Female "circumcision" or, more precisely, female genital cutting (FGC), remains an important cultural practice in many African countries, often serving as a coming-of-age ritual. It is also a practice that has generated international dispute and continues to be at the center of debates over women's rights, the limits of cultural pluralism, the balance of power between local cultures, international human rights, and feminist activism. In our increasingly globalized world, these practices have also begun immigrating to other nations, where transnational complexities vex debates about how to resolve the issue. Bringing together thirteen essays, "Transcultural Bodies" provides an ethnographically rich exploration of FGC among African diasporas in the United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia. The contributors analyze changes in ideologies of gender and sexuality in immigrant communities, the frequent marginalization of African women's voices in debates over FGC, and controversies over legislation restricting the practice in immigrant populations.
Reviews
"This volume of essays by some of the most knowledgeable experts in the world takes us a huge step beyond the global activist and first-world media (mis-)representations of FGM into moral complexities, alternative beliefs about gender and beauty, and local political realities in areas of Africa where genital surgeries are commonplace for both men and women and are highly valued by both sexes." - Richard A. Shweder, author of Why Do Men Barbecue?: Recipes for Cultural Psychology"
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0618/2006025455.html
Table of contents for Transcultural bodies : female genital cutting in global context / edited by Ylva Hernlund and Bettina Shell-Duncan.
Bibliographic record and links to related information available from the Library of Congress catalog.
Note: Contents data are machine generated based on pre-publication provided by the publisher. Contents may have variations from the printed book or be incomplete or contain other coding.
Contents
List of Tables
Preface
Chapter 1 Transcultural Positions: Negotiating Rights and Culture --Ylva Hernlund and Bettina Shell-Duncan
Chapter 2 Gender Crusades: The Female Circumcision Controversy in Cultural Perspective --Janice Boddy
Chapter 3 A Refuge from Tradition and The Refuge of Tradition: On Anti-Circumcision Paradigms --L. Amede Obiora
Chapter 4 Female Circumcision in Africa and Beyond: The Anthropology of a Difficult Issue --Aud Talle
Chapter 5 Persistence of Tradition or Reassessment of Cultural Practices in Exile? Discourses on female circumcision among and about Swedish Somalis --Sara Johnsdotter
Chapter 6 Managing Cultural Diversity in Australia: Legislating Female Circumcision, Legislating Communities --Juliet Rogers
Chapter 7 Representing Africa in the Kasinga Asylum Case --Charles Piot
Chapter 8 Seeking Asylum, Debating Values and Setting Precedents in the 1990s: The Cases of Kassindja and Abankwah in the United States --Corinne A. Kratz
Chapter 9 Making Mandinga or Making Muslims? Debating Female Circumcision, Ethnicity, and Islam in Guinea-Bissau and Portugal --Michelle C. Johnson
Chapter 10 Infibulation and the Orgasm Puzzle: Sexual Experiences of Infibulated Eritrean Women in Rural Eritrea and Melbourne Australia --Mansura Dopico
Chapter 11 Experiencing Sex in Exile: Can genitals change their gender? On conceptions and experiences related to Female Genital Cutting (FGC) among Somalis in Norway R. --Elise B. Johansen
Chapter 12 "Ain't I a Woman Too?": Challenging Myths of Sexual Dysfunction in Circumcised Women --Fuambai Ahmadu
Chapter 13 The Failure of Pluralism? --Henrietta L. Moore
Bibliography
Index
On second and third thought, I think this idea is a good one: I wrote (above):
The title "Female Genital Cutting" is only so-so; it puts too much emphasis on technique, which is incidental. The title "Female Genital Modification" would be more appropriate, and it might include other practices such as piercings and ring insertions, tatooing, Western surgical alteration ("pussy lifts"), electrolysis and shaving, "feminine hygiene" sprays, etc. Whether such modifications are beautiful, repulsive, or in-between is a subjective and cultural matter.
Indeed. Why not broaden the scope, under the title "Female Genital Modification", and present it all in the context of what is, undeniably, an intense interest (if not obsession), worldwide, with the appearance (and perhaps organoleptic qualities) of female genitals, and with changing same? Clearly this interest -- and willingness to undertake radical and risky modifying procedures -- is not limited to Africa, Asia, or other poor areas of the world. Traditional (African, S Asian, etc.) "FGC" is but one group among a larger variety of procedures falling under the general heading of Female Genital Modification. That is, modification for personal, subjective, aesthetic and cultural reasons (i.e. non-medical).
This is obviously a notable worldwide phenomenon, attracting the attention of at least hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people. It handily clears the hurdle of "notability".
Comments, please.
-- Alan2012 16:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Further thought, more important than the above:
Even "Female Genital Modification" is not right, since it refers (like "cutting") only to technique, and does not really express what is going on in human terms. No one goes for "modification" or "cutting"; they go for aesthetic enhancement. That's the purpose of said modifications or cutting. So, a title along the lines of "Female Genital Aesthetics" would be the more proper, more general heading, with subheadings including the various techniques employed, human rights issues (where genital modification is forced or violent), etc.
For perspective, consider: calling an aesthetic effort merely "cutting" or "modification" is like dealing with high-fashion clothing under the heading "Stitched Body-Coverings", or like discussing skyscrapers under the heading "Altitudinous Building Material Assemblages". Obviously, those titles have technical correctness, but they utterly fail to express, in human/cultural terms, what is going on, what is important. They merely advert to a few relatively trivial technical facts. The same is true of "Female Genital Cutting" -- technically correct (if limited in scope; hence my original suggestion of changing to "Modification"), but focussing on a relatively trivial technical fact. The KEY thing, the central matter, is not that genitals are being cut or modified (by whatever means), but that hundreds of millions (or billions) of humans find it desirable or even necessary to undertake rather extreme procedures in the interest of (percieved) aesthetic improvement. THAT is the primary phenomenon here. Everything else is important, too, in its own subordinate sphere. (When I say "relatively trivial" I mean exactly that; relatively, not absolutely. The cutting and whatnot is important, too, but something else is more important. Copische?)
Hence I suggest that the title be changed to something like "Female Genital Aesthetics & Enhancement Procedures", or "Female Genital Aesthetics, Modification & Adornment" -- a tad wordy, but the best I can do at the moment.
Comments, suggestions and improvements, please.
PS: You'll note, by the way, that referring to "aesthetics" does NOT take a point of view as to whether the aesthetic objectives are met; i.e. this does not say that the procedures in question DO result in improvement. It merely says that aesthetic improvement is the (human) purpose of the procedures in question -- whether or not that purpose is achieved (which is, again, very much a subjective and cultural matter).
-- Alan2012 23:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "pussy lift" surgery: that phrase is (obviously) slang, and not as common as I had thought. It refers to a wide variety of procedures most commonly referred to as "labioplasty" or "vaginal rejuvenation", listed here: http://www.onlinesurgery.com/plasticsurgery/vaginal-rejuvenation-default.asp
Namely:
See also the photos here:
http://www.cosmeticsurg.net/procedures/Labioplasty.php --- Labioplasty/Labiaplasty Info and Photos
Those photos are interesting insofar as one can see a parallel with traditional African genital modifications: the purpose is to smooth, to eliminate protuberance, which is deemed undesirable. Perhaps "our" (modern, Western) tastes and preferences are not so very far removed from "theirs".
I note that the purpose of these procedures is principally, but not exclusively, aesthetic. Another purpose is to enhance sexual pleasure for male and/or female. That would suggest, in keeping with my comments above, an article title along the lines of "Female Genital Aesthetics & Hedonic Functionality", or some such. (Again, wordy, but best I can think of off the top.) I could argue that "aesthetics" covers it, since that can be defined as having to do with sense perception in general, (which would include genital sensations during coitus), though I know that it most often refers to visual beauty.
As ever: comments are welcome. I am still working through all this stuff myself. It is a process.
PS: Inexplicably, I've been unable to find any reference to vaginoplasties and labiaplasties as "mutilations" in the literature disseminated by the plastic surgeons who perform the operations.
-- Alan2012 14:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In the "Attempts to end the practice of FGC" section there is this paragraph:
"On June 28, 2007 Egypt banned female genital cutting after the death of 12-year old Badour Shaker during a genital circumcision. The Guardian of Britain reported that her death "sparked widespread condemnation" of the practice. Egyptian newspapers reported that earlier in the day of her surgery, the girl had given out sweets, in celebration of her excellent grades in school. [41] (See earlier in this article for details of the death, and see the details in the next section regarding the ban on female genital cutting.)"
Why include the sentence about the girl handing out sweets? What relevance does it have to FGC? If it is to show that she was healthy earlier in the same day I feel that needs to be clarified. Mnoram 22:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
One sicko, as far as I can see: Alan2012 Can you not see that little girls being held down and mutilated is heinous ? They are too young to agree to such wickedness. They are not being "modified". They are being subjected to mutilation of a nightmarish proportion. They can't recover because their nerve pathways have been cut away. Congratulations, Alan Mengele.
Some idiot has vandalized a section of this page. some one should take care of it and replace it with something appropriate
In the article, type I FGC is defined as clitoridectomy. This is incorrect. Clitoridectomy is defined as the removal (excision) of part or all of the clitoris[ [24]] [ [25]]. Type I FGC is defined by WHO as: "Type I (FGM 1) - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris."[ [26]] How should we fix this? Also, the sentence under Type I which begins, "This term was devised in The Sudan by...." is not supported by the source. It isn't even clear what term this is referring to, but there is nothing in the source suggesting that any term was "devised in the Sudan." Blackworm 10:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a reference anywhere. Where is the reference for the claim that there are inherent different enumerated "types" of Female Genital Cutting? Who originated this enumeration? In any case, this grouping and enumeration must be attributed, not presented to us as fact without citation. See WP:V. I have also tagged "Type I - Clitoridectomy" with being a factual error -- for reasons tI cite in a different section, above. Blackworm 05:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The edit made to add a reference was incomplete. The statement is "four types have been categorized." The source says "the second section defines four types of mutilation." Thus, at best, the statement should say "The World Health Organization defines four types of female genital mutilation" -- thus properly attributing the source of the definition and conforming to WP:V. Now, there is also the issue as to whether a detailed rehash of the type system the WHO invented is to be included in the article, with subsequent discussion framed in those terms. Blackworm 14:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[...] to avoid fuelling unnecessary sensitivity about the issue. Thus, for example, participants coined a new phrase for FGM: "female genital cutting." The term "female circumcision" was rejected as a misleading euphemism, but "female genital mutilation" was thought to imply excessive judgement by outsiders as well as insensitivity toward individuals who have undergone excision.
— DISPATCHES -- NEWS FROM UNFPA, THE UNITED NATIONS POPULATION FUND, NUMBER 6, MARCH 1996[ [27]
(reset indentation) WP:V says to use reliable sources. The World Health Organization is a reliable source. They are cited in numerous governmental and scholarly sources and their 4 types are used to classify FGC in the majority I've seen, and they're used to aid the rest of the discussion (so that the different types may be referenced later). Please be bold and help fix what you think is wrong with the article, rather than placing fact tags which lower the article's worth (articles have failed good article nominations because of them). Ciotog 03:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
My edit, being repeatedly reverted by Jakew, is the addition of "which is partially..." in the sentence below:
The clitoral hood is the female prepuce, homologous to the foreskin (prepuce) of the male, which is partially or totally removed during male circumcision. [2]
Jakew has objected on grounds on WP:NOR. This is invalid, the source is referenced and the information is widely available.
Jakew has also objected on ground that it violates WP:SOAP. Please indicate how you believe my change violates this policy. My change is not "Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment," it is not an "opinion piece," nor is it "self-promotion" nor "advertisement" (quoted from WP:SOAP).
The change is useful for context and adherence to WP:NPOV, especially given the prior introduction of the term, "female circumcision" and the fact that this term redirects here. We would not want to give the impression that all forms of female circumcision are analogous to male circumcision, for example; thus it is appropriate to point out the appropriate categorization of the analogous procedure called circumcision in males. Blackworm 13:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
In short, the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article; the only way to demonstrate that you are not inserting your own POV is to represent these sources and the views they reflect accurately.
— WP:NOR, emphasis in original
"Ciotog, can you explain why you believe a better reference would be required? The claim seems supported by the source. Blackworm 15:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)"
As expected, an attempt was again made to remove this information. I have restored this information along with a new cited reference which supports all aspects of the sentence. Hopefully this will end this discussion. Blackworm 20:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the text has now been changed, reintroducing several problems. The change is from:
To:
The edit summary was "Better ref, supporting entire sentence".
Problems include:
The word "infibulation" is derived from the Latin word "fibula," meaning a pin or clasp. The term has been given to a mulative procedure in which the vagina is partially closed by approximating the labia majora in the midline. Clitoridectomy may or may not be included, but the essential part of the operation consists of partial closure of the vulva and the vaginal orifice.
— New York State Journal of Medicine, Volume 77, Number 6: Pages 729-31, April 1977. [emphasis mine]
Infibulation involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora, leaving a raw open wound. [...] Nothing remains of the normal anatomy of the genitalia,[...]
— Wikipedia, citing the above [emphasis mine]
All empasis mine. Can we do better than this? Can someone suggest a rewrite? Blackworm 10:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed:
Amnesty International and the World Health Organization most often refer to the practice as female genital mutilation. [3] [4] [5] [6]
None of the sources support the claim that this term is what these organizations "most often" use. I have placed it here in case someone wishes to rephrase. Blackworm ( talk) 09:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
"None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions."
— -- Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy
"[...] while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use 'truth' as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth."
— Wikipedia's No Original Research policy
Blackworm ( talk) 22:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I mentioned civility once, it was justified. If the brief mention of the WP:Bite guidelines offended you, I am sorry, but it is a legitimate observation - you are biting me. I am doing more than changing just two sentences as the edit summaries have shown - I am reworking the whole section. I would have never used the one tag if your haste hadn't made it a good option. I suggest you take your own advice. I think perhaps you are making a big deal out of nothing. I am actively trying to add sourced content - you are trying to censor in accordance to a POV. Please calm down. Perhaps you should wait until I'm finished with constructive edits before you accuse me of being disruptive and harmful. I have not violated any policy. If you are unhappy with others editing an article may I remind you of WP:OWN. I am sectioning off the terms so that you can add any sourced material you wish to include. Phyesalis ( talk) 03:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I have I have changed the statement (Blackworm was correct). The three refs did not support the statement as written. One of them contained relevant info and I have added the quote to the ref. I have removed the other two, added additional citations and changed the wording of the statement to reflect the info cited. I have also restructured the sections - each term has its own section (following in chronological order) to allow for sourced commentary. I also added a quote that discusses the change from "FC" to "FGM". I had a few issues working out the refs (that's what took me so long!). The inuse tag has been removed. Thank you for your patience. Phyesalis ( talk) 03:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I realize that I'm opening a potentially nasty can of worms, but I don't see how unreferenced OR pertaining to the issues on Circumcision relate to FGC. Obviously, some referenced material that specifically deals with the contentious issues between FGC and (male) circumcision could be appropriate in a particular context/sub-section/different page, but it is completely inappropriate to have them strewn throughout the article. Random refs to just (male) circumcision are irrelevant and OR, as this is not a page about (male) circumcision, nor is it about the issues between the two. I am removing all uncited material to (male) circumcision. Phyesalis ( talk) 02:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Second - this isn't about what men think about their foreskins in comparison to female genitalia(no disrespect), it's an article about FGC. The assertion's unsourced, irrelevant and potentially harmful. I challenge it. If Blackworm cares to respond, I would appreciate specific examples of my "unsourced and badly attributed material", as I have asked him before. Phyesalis ( talk) 22:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)"Nevertheless, the comparison of male circumcision to female genital mutilation by some groups, such as the International Coalition for Genital Integrity, is shameless and appalling. Female genital cutting is an act of subjugation, the removal of part or all of the genitalia and, sometimes, the near-complete suturing of the vulva, leading to high rates of infection and, during childbirth, death."
This needs to be archived badly.
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