![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think it would be worthwhile to include information on the relationship between the Federal Reserve and the United States Treasury. It is mentioned in the "Central bank" and "Independent" sections briefly but there is more stuff involved. I'll start a list of some of the things involved in the relationship below: Analoguni ( talk) 06:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the references are a little sloppy. I'm not questioning the sources but format/method used. I think they can done in a better way. I've seen some articles where the "references" section is linked to the "bibliography" section. This is useful when different pages from one source are used throughout an article. The reference will show the page number and it will be a hyperlink to the title in the bibliography section. There are several references in this article in which this should probably be done. For other references, there doesn't seem to be a standard format being used. I think these can be presented in a neater way. I'm responsible for some of these, such as ones which contain quotes, and it would probably be a good idea to have some consistency as to how this is done. Analoguni ( talk) 06:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Without naming any names, let me just say this:
The fact that one holds a Juris Doctor doesn't make one a de facto authority on the banking system of the United States. It is a VERIFIABLE FACT--one that Alan Greenspan himself has repeatedly disclosed in public on numerous occasions--that the Federal Reserve Bank system is a private entity beholden to none. Not even the congress. Period. Why is it, that any time someone attempts to post this fact to this entry, some ignorant dolt removes it? What is the problem? Why are you people so terrified the truth might get out? Do you work at the fed, or what? The word "federal" was specifically chosen back in 1913 in order to mislead the public; to lull them into believing the Fed was somehow a "quasi-government" agency. So, is it safe to say then, that those of you who patently refuse to allow the true nature of the central bank to be posted here are in absolute denial or are you just as totally ignorant as the citizenry of that era? Like another poster stated in this discussion, "there are so many lies and falsehoods" in this article, it is difficult to know where to begin...and you folks who refuse to acknowledge this situation are delusional if you think you're educating anybody. To call this entire entry misleading is a colossal understatement. It's nothing more than propaganda.
As far as this film "Zeitgeist" goes...NEVER HEARD OF IT. My statements are based simply on my study of U.S. monetary policy while obtaining my Master's degree in Economics from The College of William & Mary (1998). We call it education. Some of you people might want to try it sometime.
Jimmy ( talk) 03:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Closer71
I have a feeling that this has to do with something called "Nerd Rage" That is when something doesnt follow every single guideline of Wikipedia they say it is an opinion and needs to be removed other wise their editing days will end and everyone will suffer because of it. Next time you put an arguement cite it with modern money mechanics, the book written by the federal reserve in 1913. This book contains all info about the fed being a private organization, and is a legible source. Oh and all of you nerds living in your moms basement trolling wikipedia for things that you dont think are correct... Modern Money Mechanics is a legible source and may be cited as one. Just because there isnt a wikipedia page doesnt make it a false source you tards, stop having ocd attacks. Feel free to reply to this at any time or email me at randomrd@gmail.com, I will be copying this and reposting it daily to prevent editing. 71.55.122.30 ( talk) 04:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Sam Gelman
Thanks for "sharing your feelings" again to Famspear and mr. Gelman. One name springs to mind.
Norman Dodd. But I guess history isn't important to anyone anymore. oh well. Enjoy your debates on this rotten corporation while the
Pacific Garbage Patch grows accordingly. Other historians up ahead will probably not be so impressed with your skills either in market economic theory nor accuracy in describing history. But it doesn't seem to bother you just now, now does it? Here's a few other words that spring to mind: mass psychosis and utter lunacy. So long.
Nunamiut (
talk)
21:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I am new to editing on Wikipedia so please be mindful of my ignorance to it's policies. I have been trying to add a section about the current End The FED movement in place to abolish the FED and I thought I was posting incorrectly because the post kept disappearing. I have since found out that it was being deleted and I was actually involved in a edit war hence the reason for this post. Here is the entry I have written that I believe is something that people should be aware of in regards to understanding the FED. It seems the one of the problems may be neutrality so I am here to request assistance for this and and other "problems" that make it not preferable to be listed in an encyclopedic reference. Thank you.
Ron Paul has been the leader in a grassroots campaign, Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty, to restore the Constitutional rights to the people of the United States. In the 111st Congress, 2009-2010, Representative Paul introduced a bill to "End the FED", H.R. 833: Federal Reserve Board Abolition Act. [1] Support for this movement has grown rampantly, with much public and media attention, due to the failing U.S. economy with the Federal Reserves Fractional-reserve banking system believed to be at it's root. Mass protests were held in front of Federal Reserve buildings in 38 U.S. cities on November 22nd, 2008 and plans for another rally to "Repeal the FED", in support of Bill H.R. 833, are being discussed to occur in 40 U.S cities on April 25th, 2009. The "End the FED" campaign [2] and "Restore the Republic" [3]have been working diligently to increase exposure for Bill H.R. 833 as well as fighting to secure many other constitutional liberties for " We The People of the United States".
No problem. Thank you for coming to the talk page. Note that the software will automatically sign and date your comments if you type four tildes ("~~~~").
The main problem I see with this section is sourcing. The protests and plans don't seem to be based upon reliable sources, see WP:RS. I'm also not confident that these are very notable to the topic either—that is, I suspect they're undue weight, see WP:UNDUE. Reliable sources from independent publishers would help demonstrate the magnitude of this movement.
Part of this section seems to be already covered in the article. Ron Paul is mentioned in three sections of this article, and one of them does explain that he submits bill to abolish the Fed every year. We could certainly provide a citation to his latest proposal. Generally, this article is overlong and rambling, and I think the size of it causes redundancies that we should try to avoid. Cool Hand Luke 19:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I also agree with fellow editors that this article is pretty long. I express no opinion on the notability or non-notability of the "end the fed" material but, assuming it belongs in Wikipedia, I agree that it might work better as a separate article. Famspear ( talk) 18:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as the member banks lists are available on the regional fed sites it doens't make sense to drag the FDIC into this. It is needlessly confusing. This section should be deleted and replaced with links to Fed Bank lists, if it is needed at all. They chart, likewise,must go.
Unless I get some reason why the current stuff should stay I will make this change in a few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.177.193 ( talk) 20:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that if people become confused with the FDIC list, it is because the U.S. banking system is confusing. I think the U.S. banking system is confusing because it evolved over time with some things kept and some things discarded. With that said, I would like to be able to get ahold of what all the types of banks in the United States are and where to get a list of all of them. Since I'm a little confused as to how banking in the U.S. is organized, I'm going to put in some info here on what I know so far.
As is stated at the top of the "Member banks" section in the article and referenced on page 12 of "Purposes and Functions", all of the commercial banks in the USA are divided into 3 types:
So, what exactly is a commercial bank? What other types of banks are there? Also, not all banks in the USA are insured by the FDIC. So, what banks are not insured by the FDIC?
I'm going to include the exact quotes from 2 official federal reserve souces which give some clues and numbers:
In Purposes and Functions on page 12:
From federalreserveeducation.org at http://www.federalreserveeducation.org/fed101_html/structure/tour/tour.htm:
The law (U.S. Code) says that national banks are all insured by the FDIC ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/222.html) but I would like to find what part of U.S. code says that all state members are also insured by the FDIC.
Title 12, Chapter 16 of U.S Code is the part for the FDIC ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode12/usc_sup_01_12_10_16.html). The "Definitions" are in section 1813 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/1813-) which actually defines the types of banks but I'm not sure if this is complete because it's under the FDIC chapter and there are banks that are not insured by the FDIC.
Dr. Econ (an official federal reserve source) gives some information on the types of banks in the United States and their regulators: http://www.frbsf.org/education/activities/drecon/answerxml.cfm?selectedurl=/2006/0611.html There is also a link on that page to a document titled, Banking Institutions and Their Regulators at: http://www.newyorkfed.org/banking/regrept/BIATR.pdf
If anyone can help out here, that would be great. This could help get rid of some confusion. Analoguni ( talk) 21:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
In the transparency issues section:
United States congressman Ron Paul, well-known for being a critic of the Federal Reserve System, has said in regards to FOMC transparency issues...
In the inflation section:
United States Congressman Ron Paul, ranking member of the Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy (of the House Banking Committee), has also criticized Federal Reserve policy for creating and downplaying excessive inflation...
In the "business cycles, libertarian..." section:
Many libertarians also contend that the Federal Reserve Act is unconstitutional. Congressman Ron Paul (ranking member of the House Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy), for example, argues that...
In the "congress" section:
Currently, Congressman Paul is the ranking member of the Monetary Policy Subcommittee and he is a staunch opponent of the Federal Reserve System. During each Congress Paul introduces a bill to abolish the Federal Reserve System...
Isn't this undue weight? His opinion is certainly notable enough to be mentioned, but not four times in different sections throughout the article. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 21:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The criticism's section overall needs to be restructured. Some points I'd make (some of which have already been made):
Also, although criticisms sections are frowned upon, sometimes during discussions they are more practical. By separating the neutral content from the critical, we can more easily come to an agreement on what should go up and what should stay. In the past, in various articles relating to monetary theory, they were often filled with fact mixed with gold bug silliness throughout. Eventually, this seems to have been generally dealt with by moving criticism to a criticism section, then cleaning up the criticism section to make it more presentable and encyclopedic. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand, I think the Ron Paul quotes are appropriate as they are in the article because he is a noteworthy United States Congressman who has a reputation for being involved in philosophical discussions about the Federal Reserve System. I think he is also good at explaining his viewpoints in easy to understand ways. If I understand the philosophical debates correctly, people who share the same viewpoints with Ron Paul tend to agree with the things that Ron Paul says and that he says things in ways that a lot of people can understand. In other words, he's a good communicator. So in summary, the Ron Paul quotes are good ones to pick because they aren't just from Ron Paul, but are representative of a lot of people who tend to be critical of the Federal Reserve System so things could be simplified by just quoting Ron Paul. On the other hand, I think that a wikipedia article is better off with a diverse array of sources. I think it is possible to find other people who say essentially the same things that Ron Paul does on particular aspects of the Federal Reserve System. Analoguni ( talk) 03:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
While his status as ranking on a committee doesn't have to be mentioned each time, I would say that since Ron Paul is the congressman most associated with talking about the Federal Reserve and certainly with opposition to it, it is not outrageous for him to be quoted four times in this article.-- Gloriamarie ( talk) 23:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Someone just added a section saying that in 2010 there will be no central banking (See history). Is there a reason this is in the section? If not, I'm going to remove it. - Nonamer98 ( talk) 14:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Federal_Reserve_System#Business_cycles.2C_libertarian_philosophy_and_free_markets
I do not believe Milton Friedman has ever faulted the Federal Reserve for increasing of the money supply, in relation to the Great Depression. This may need to be cleaned up. BigK HeX ( talk) 08:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Some text has been added, which I believe allows an uninitiated reader to come away with a proper sense of weight to some of the small minority perspectives discussed in the article, which is my understanding of WP:UNDUE. A couple of the editors seem to find such notation disagreeable. Would any of you care to discuss why? BigK HeX ( talk) 14:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately this message must be posted over and over again on this talk page, and it appears that it's time for the message again.
One of the many urban legends that repeatedly creeps into Wikipedia is the legend that "The Fed" is a "corporation," or that it is a "private corporation." The legend takes various forms. Readers should simply read the article carefully.
"The Fed" is not a "corporation" at all. Saying that the Fed is a privately owned corporation is like saying that "the universe" is "a planet" merely because the universe CONTAINS planets. The Fed means THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. The SYSTEM contains privately owned corporations. The SYSTEM also includes government agencies. So it's not only incorrect to say that "The Fed" is "privately owned"; it's also meaningless.
The following entities are separate from each other and, together with various other entities, comprise the "Federal Reserve System":
When someone says "Federal Reserve" or "the fed" some people are going to think about the entire "Federal Reserve System," not a specific Federal Reserve Bank (e.g., the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, of Dallas, etc.) or even the Federal Reserve Banks generally. The use of the phrase "Federal Reserve" without the suffix "System" or "Bank" is unfortunately very common, and it may sometimes be a source of confusion.
The court in Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982) (noted above) stated: "Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region." Notice the terminology. Not "the Fed", not the "Federal Reserve System." What the court was talking about was "each Federal Reserve Bank." There are twelve of them.
The Lewis court noted that "the fact that the Federal Reserve Board [and here the court probably meant "the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System"] regulates the Reserve Banks does not make them federal agencies under the [Federal Tort Claims] Act."
To make things more confusing, the court also noted that the "Reserve Banks are deemed to be federal instrumentalities for purposes of immunity from state taxation."
In other words, what the court was talking about in Lewis was not the Federal Reserve System, and not the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, and not the Federal Open Market Committee, and not the member banks of the Federal Reserve System -- but only the specific Federal Reserve Banks themselves (in the Lewis case, specifically the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco). The "Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco" is NOT THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. It's just ONE PART of the System.
So, we have at least two sources of confusion. One is the indiscriminate use of the term "Federal Reserve" without making clear whether we're talking about the entire Federal Reserve System or, alternatively, just the Federal Reserve Banks or, alternatively, the member banks, or some other part of the System.
The second source of confusion is that a Federal Reserve Bank, like other "things" can be considered one "legal thing" (to use a non-technical term) for purposes of one law such as the Federal Tort Claims Act and another "legal thing" for purposes of another law, such as a state tax law. The concept of things being treated one way under one law and another under another law is very familiar to lawyers, judges, etc.
So, the question is not "Who owns the fed", but rather a series of questions, such as:
Note: Ownership of shares in a Federal Reserve Bank is not completely analogous to ownership of shares in ExxonMobil, etc. Ownership of shares in a member bank is more comparable to owning shares of ExxonMobil -- i.e., you or I could theoretically own shares in ExxonMobil or in a member bank.)
Who owns the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System? The answer, obviously, is that no one does, as the Board is really a government entity. See 12 U.S.C. § 241.
Thus, some parts of the Federal Reserve System (such as the member banks) are privately owned and at least one part (the Board of Governors) is a governmental entity.
The important thing is to understand that the Federal Reserve System is composed of various parts, each part having different characteristics -- and it's therefore important that we be clear about what we mean when we say "the fed." Famspear ( talk) 02:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Famspear:
I am admittedly a new Wikipedia contributor, however I see precisely what you are saying here and I thank you for your clarification. To that end I would like further clarification on one particular point, if you would be so kind as to provide it:
Could you shed some light on the details of this "ownership" that is not private ownership in the sense with which we are mostly familiar, i.e. as in owning shares of Exxon Mobile? I ask only because I would prefer clarification here from someone who obviously has a better understanding of the Federal Reserve System (in its entirety). Thank you for your clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.168.171.157 ( talk • contribs) on 4 November 2008.
If you take a look at the Federal Reserve FAQ, it lists who owns the federal reserve.(Or it tries to)..
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
So essentially, the federal reserve is an "independent"(private) bank with a confidential list of shareholders(other banks). Smallman12q ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects
Why did Congress want the Federal Reserve to be relatively independent? The intent of Congress in shaping the Federal Reserve Act was to keep politics out of monetary policy. The System is independent of other branches and agencies of government. It is self-financed and therefore is not subject to the congressional budgetary process.
I love a good debate. Cheers! Smallman12q ( talk) 12:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Allow me to quote Ellen Hodgson Brown, J.D., author of "Web of Debt": "The Federal Reserve is an independent, privately owned corporation. It consists of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks owned by many commercial member banks which hold Federal Reserve Stock in an amount proportional to their size. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York holds the majority of shares in the Federal Reserve System (53 percent). Its [the NY Fed Bank] largest shareholders are the largest commercial banks in the district of New York....[In the NY Fed's case, the largest member banks are Citibank and Chase]. The NY Fed has some 500 member banks."
The "stock" is not traded on any exchange. You or I can't own it. The government can't own it. The stock is private. This is a private corporation. Yes, the president appoints a chairman, but the congress has no power over him. The private stock-owning member banks elects the Federal Reserve board. Recently, I saw the Fed chairman being grilled on C-Span by congressmen wanting to know what institutions they had lent 2 trillion dollars to. Over and over, he refused to say. A government institution refusing to answer congress?
Think about it. If the Fed was a government entity, then when the Fed bought treasury bills, it would pay for them by crediting the treasury with new reserves (creating money out of thin air), and then the treasury would pay itself back with interest. I.e. the government loaning money to itself and paying itself back with interest. The Federal Reserve is a private banking cartel created by an act of congress in 1913. Skipper80501 ( talk) 23:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I am sure everyone agrees that the Federal Reserve Banks are private. We all need to be clear that the Federal Reserve System is the compliation of the board and the private banks. The board is slowly determined by the POTUS, (and confirmed by the Senate) but does so over a lenghthy amount of time and from a list of nominees provided by the private banks.
So this is where the "private or public debate" stems from.
Statements that the "Federal Reserve System is private" are clearly a matter of opinion, because one has to determine and interpret how much influence the private banks have over determining the board.
But statements such as "The Federal Reserve Banks are private" are indisputable fact, backed up by the cited court case or even the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
So I believe that this disctintion needs to be made, and once made, I don't see how all sides won't be able to get along with each other. EzraPoundem ( talk) 22:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Fed is not under direct public control by any of the peoples chosen representatives. The Fed has stock holders in it's member banks, the regional federal reserve banks who are privately owned institutions. The members of the board in the Fed is primarily chosen by unelected officials or officials pre-chosen and afterwards "appointed" by officials after the fact. The public or its elected representatives do not control it and have absolutely no means to control its policies, hence the disingenuous term "independent". Profits from the actions of the fed are derived from knowledge of how and when great changes in the markets will occur, which is information the member regional banks and its owners and shareholders are the only ones who could possibly have prior knowledge and access to. All money in the US are evidence of debt, it is therefore evident that the entire USA pays interest on all its money. a debt that increases so much that every 5, 10 and 20 years there has to be a shearing, just as the gold and silver years of the middle ages when all loans or 50 percent of the loans value were deleted from the books so as not to make the system collapse. the shearing of the public is hidden behind the financial crashes like those of October 1929, October 1987, october 1997, october 2008. The preposterous choice of the same time of the year each time clearly demonstrates the lunacy and vanity of the people behind, or their fondness of astrology and or just sticking it in the face of the parts of the population that are intelligent enough to have noticed the soon to be hundred year old scam since the federal reserve act of 1913. All an easy play really, since so few are smart enough to understands that really all human labour and production should really make the US economy _grow_ every year instead of increasing its debt. so whether there is 10% interest or 5 %, as long as money supply in the US increases their debt will also increase ad infinitum. But people and politicians are brought up to be blindingly adherent to authority so they wont even admit to the scam until decades after it has been revealed. In that regard there is no difference between the left or the right, the right will keep on denying the fact for just as long as the left has denied the faults of the soviets, Stalin or Mao. Most people would rather die than to change their minds or even open them a tiny fraction to new possibilities. It's been repeated throughout the ages but there you have it. "Educated" people are often the worst , since they feel they have unshakeable "proof" of their beliefs. All in all the scam will perpetuate until such time as enough people understands that the only way to change the system is not to vote for _any_ of the mainstream parties or anything that resembles the old authorities. Humanity's combined intellectual capacity should have been able to think and solve its problems, but I think we wont be holding our breaths waiting for anyone to solve any of our current problems any time soon. cheers to you all whatever your favourite delusion might be. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.215.3.220 (
talk •
contribs) on 19 April 2009.
Can anyone please explain the difference to me? -- Tyler D Mace ( talk · contr) 08:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I would vote for the Fed to be classified on the quasi-private end of the spectrum. The Fed banks are owned, though stock, by member banks as stated in the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. However, the Fed Chairman for instance, is appointed by the POTUS. (Although he selects from a list of nominees supplied by the board, and can only re-appoint board members over a lengthy period of time.) This would be an example of public, or governmental control, which shows the quasi-character of the Fed. Clearly, though, because of the nomination process by private Fed banks which make up the system it leans far more towards the private end of the quasi-spectrum. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I deleted several quotations that seem to keep creeping into the article, such as references of Alexander Hamilton. These obviously are not "historical critiques" of the Federal Reserve System and, in some cases, are not even critiques at all. To insert these materials and disguising them as critiques of the Federal Reserve System is not only an act of prohibited original research, it is not very good original research.
Some of the remaining quotations are suspect as well, such as the quotation with the incomplete citation to the Congressional Record. (I left the quotation in, but another editor might remove it.) Legitimate citations should include enough information to point the reader to the exact place where the quotation is found, preferably including a volume number and page number where applicable.
One of the quotes I removed was simply an out-of-context quote from the Lewis case (a case discussed many times in this talk page), and was not a critique at all.
Putting a quotation in the article because a Wikipedia editor imagines that it can be used as a critique is not proper. That is original research by an editor. Instead, a quotation should be treated as a critique only when the person who actually said or wrote the quotation intended it as a critique of the Federal Reserve System. Famspear ( talk) 12:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
However, it must be apparent that the quotes are not directed at the Fed, but rather at the concept of central banking. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this order should be added. Here is some more information: http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htm Mustanggt5000 ( talk) 20:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)Mustanggt5000
This order basically opened the silver window, allowing citizens to redeem paper dollars with silver coin. While it is related to the Federal Reserve somewhat, I'm not entirely sure how it would appear on the article, under what section, etc. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
this article needs a credible source and list of member banks. The link to FDIC member banks is totally incorrect and has been deleted. Should anyone know of a CREDIBLE source and link to Fed member banks, this article needs it. thanks. Soledad22 ( talk) 03:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Steve: the source is for the FDIC, and this article is about the Federal Reserve System, which are two different entities. The text and link are apples and oranges, and must go since it is totally incorrect and misleading. I have reworked the text for accuracy on this issue.
Soledad22 (
talk)
16:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
State banks are not necessarily insured by the FDIC. However, all Federal Reserve member banks must be insured by the FDIC. National banks are only required to be members of the Federal Reserve System if they are in the 50 states or D.C. Territorial national banks may elect to become members or not. Cool Hand Luke 19:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The intro so far is just a summary of the structure, but it could be useful to include a summary of some other things. Analoguni ( talk) 04:53, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the intro should mention how not every bank in the U.S. is a member of the Fed. National banks are the only ones that are automatically members, whereas state banks voluntarily choose to become members. Also mention how most banks in the U.S. are not members. Some summary statistics can be useful, like saying, "of the 17,000 commercial banks in the U.S., 2,300 are members" or something like that.
To me, the organization of banking is confusing since there are various regulatory agencies and whatnot. The historic evolution of banking in the United States contributes to this, I think.
Some general numbers like the numbers of banks and total assets.
As it stands, the Federal Reserve System is a quasi-public entity (government entity with certain private components).
This really is not accurate, though, as the:
1)Fed Banks are privately owned by member banks
2)The member banks are, of course, private
3)The Fed board is composed from a list of nominees provided by the private banks, and from that list, chosen by the POTUS, confirmed by the Senate.
4) The FOMC is composed of the board members and 5 of the 12 Fed Bank Presidents.
So, the very composition of the "Fed System" is overwhelmingly privately-controlled.
From there, there are minor restrictions on the Fed, such as the FOMC being required to meet 8 times a year.
Basically, the Fed has very few differences from a privately owned public utility company. Certainly we wouldn't say that the utility company is a government entity with private components, would we? We would say it is a private entity granted a monopoly by the government to operate for the public's service.
I'm thinking that changing it to "The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-private entity (privately composed entity with certain government restrictions) which regulates monetary policy for the United States..." as that is a bit more accurate of its nature.
I know it's a more major change so I wanted to get feedback from everyone before making the change. EzraPoundem ( talk) 23:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
"insulate them from political control" is just
newspeak for insulating them from public democratic control and lawful audit. Some people are just totally brainwashed these days. They're even ending up calling democratic action "socialist or "collectivist". The powers that be really have confused people so totally that they dont even know what their own real interests are anymore, not even how to exercise their own rights in the face of private institutions and power. Absolutely fascinating..
Nunamiut (
talk)
04:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Are the members of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System (who do control the FED) official public servants and employees? Is their income recieved from the government and does the income and their job description adhere to governments laws and standards? If the Federal Reserve System is controlled by its board and the board is appointed by , chosen, appointed or elected and paid by private interests then the FED is privately controlled, and also outside public control and "insulated" from "political control", i.e. public control no matter what kind of newspeak you adhere to. But intellectual dishonesty is not going to die easily I gather.
Nunamiut (
talk)
22:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
From St. Louis Fed's Economic Synopsis section
From the Cleveland Fed's Indicators & Data section
Bernanke lecture at 2009 symposium
Ben Bernanke gave a lecture (transcript here) about changes in monetary policy involving the Fed balance sheet at the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond 2009 Credit Markets Symposium, inside the Charlotte, North Carolina branch. I think it's noteworthy because he explains what is going on with the balance sheet and also because he essentially says here that there has been a fundamental change in how monetary policy works:
Analoguni ( talk) 05:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as, "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves." Privately-owned banks own the stock of the Fed. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said:
"Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors."
Similarly, the Federal Reserve Banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks. Taking another look at Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money: "Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.).
The FED banks, which are privately owned, actually issue, that is, create, the money we use. In 1964 the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: "The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them.
Note: Black's Law Dictionary is the most widely-used law dictionary in the United States. It was founded by Henry Campbell Black. It is the reference of choice for definitions in legal briefs and court opinions and has been cited as a secondary legal authority in many U.S. Supreme Court cases. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
This article makes absolutely no mention of JFK's order to close down the Federal Reserve. -- 98.198.220.205 ( talk) 00:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as, "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves." Privately-owned banks own the stock of the Fed. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said:
"Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors."
Similarly, the Federal Reserve Banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks. Taking another look at Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money: "Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.).
The FED banks, which are privately owned, actually issue, that is, create, the money we use. In 1964 the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: "The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them.
Note: Black's Law Dictionary is the most widely-used law dictionary in the United States. It was founded by Henry Campbell Black. It is the reference of choice for definitions in legal briefs and court opinions and has been cited as a secondary legal authority in many U.S. Supreme Court cases. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
There's nothing "quasi" about the completely private control and ownership of the FED. It's completely privately owned, and hence a private institution. it is "insulated" from the publics only way of exerting democratic control: through democratic government, hence no public control! there is nothing democratic or even remotely public about its interests, it's owners or its executive officers, a few government façade appointments of a board already consisting of 95% privately handpicked members is not "quasi-public" and is intellectually dishonest newspeak to say the least to serve up as "facts" to the general public. It's a downright open scam and a pathetic farce, not to mention an insult to anyone with their mental and moral capacity still intact. Does anyone in the general public own any of its stock? is any private person from the general able to purchase ownership of such stock? No. There is so close to nothing "quasi" about the purely private ownership of the FED, that what little image there is of it qualifies neither as "public influence"( i.e. democratic influence" as they so often expressly proclaim is the actual intent not to allow, hence there is nothing "quasi" about its control or ownership. Nunamiut ( talk) 23:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Where's your logic, your reasoning, arguments? Doy have any at all? "The FED is not completely private owned" just because you say it is not??? This line of 'refutation' defies belief. Are you being serious??
Nunamiut (
talk)
00:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I too 'understand'. I understand intellectual dishonesty and a thoroughly mediocre view of this worlds political workings or any ability to comprehend and perceive the worlds political systems is somehow what passes as being objective and pretending to be presenting logical valid arguments and reasoning, without providing either logic, sound reasoning or valid arguments of any kind at all. Just stating your opinion. Well your only attempt at using reasoning or a sound argument is just as if stating private corporations as Exxon or the likes were "government entities" within the fascist states Spain, Portugal or places and states like Indonesia or Thailand simply because they were given (through deceit,pressure or brute force) an almost dictatorial part and immense influence by the government over all aspects industrial planning, execution and legislation. Hey, while we're at it, and since we're intellectually dishonest anyway, why dont we just let Exxon call itself the 'Federal Exxon SYSTEM' and appoint the members Exxon themselves suggest every 14 years and let them dominate all the other oil companies and have all the inside information on all that concerns oil and giving out new prospected oil fields, that would make them " a government entity" all right, and we could all pretend they weren't "completely priavetly owned" and controlled. And sort of like claiming an Exxon gas station is private, but the owning and administrative mother company is a somehow just a "SYSTEM". Yes, it IS a "system", a system that keeps the scam afloat and pushes the pretence in the media. Pretending government, the current administration or any democratic bodies have any say in the appointing of an undemocratic elite that sits for 14 years. It would be fascinating to see all of this inability to conduct simple political analysis if it weren't for the fact that it was so tedious to read so mediocre attempts at defending the very systems that actually create and perpetuate the economic troubles the people of the United States and the world faces. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
“The fundamentalist mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them” -- Henry Louis Mencken
Nunamiut (
talk)
00:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Your dishonest definition of ownership notwithstanding. I have not stated any "beliefs" whatsoever. And I will not thank you for anything since the only thing you have provided is nefarious and orwellian (what else?) newspeak. Ownership is defined by the ability one has to exert control or legal claims and ability to influence,and hold/exert power over. Government "agencies" or any part of the US government to put it bluntly, more clearly than ever, do NOT hold or wield ANY such power or control over the FED. As you, the article AND Greenspan & Bernanke both openly have admitted to on camera: central banks, or "systems" as you so euphemistically label it, are "insulated from political influence" as is the term used for making the public believe that they are saved from their own representatives having any democratic influence and control over their own nations moneys and destiny. Nunamiut ( talk) 18:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
As you will see, the 9th circuit court ruled that the Federal Reserve Banks are "independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations", and there is not sufficient "federal government control over 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operation'" of the Federal Reserve Bank for it to be considered a federal agency:
Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982) No. 80-5905 United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.145.47 ( talk • contribs)
The Federal Reserve apparently can't account for $9 trillion in off-balance sheet transactions.
When Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Orlando) asked Inspector General Elizabeth Coleman of the Federal Reserve some very basic questions about where the trillions of dollars that have come from the Fed's expanded balance sheet, the IG didn't know.
Worse, nobody at the Fed seems to have any idea what the losses on its $2 trillion portfolio really are.
"I am shocked to find out that nobody at the Federal Reserve is keeping track of anything," Grayson says.
Source: http://moneynews.newsmax.com/..
Not sure this can account as a reliable source - if not I hope a reliable source will issue a news about it. It would affect the section about the balance sheet in the current article. - 222.225.110.201 ( talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
No, you're not hearing me correctly. Grayson grilling the IG is but one example of the recent FED outrage. There are 170 plus CO-SPONSORS to a bill which will audit the FED entirely. That's not sensationalism, that's huge, legitamite news and MUST be added to the article. The proposed titles were merely propositions. Perhaps Audit Bill of 2009 would be the best choice here. EzraPoundem ( talk) 14:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Earlier this week User:99.132.183.14 added a paragraph after Paul's illegality claim that advanced a theory of why the federal reserve is legal. While I welcome that effort, the paragraph did not describe any theory of legality supported by the federal courts, and in fact directly contradicted the theory that they do support. I replaced the paragraph with one that refers to the relevant case law, but 99.* continues to restore the other paragraph and even claims that it is supported by the cases that contradict it. I can only assume that he has not read these cases.
As a sign of good faith, I attempted to restore one (uncited) part of the paragraph addressing who precisely oversees monetary policy. (It's not the private banks.) Unfortunately the edit does not show up and there is some kind of synchronization problem preventing me from fixing that.
The claim by 99.* that Federal Reserve notes are not money is one that courts have repeatedly found frivolous (a harsh word that courts use to mean "absurd", "crazy", or "not worth their time"). [2] If 99.* continues to restore that claim, it needs to be removed. WillOakland ( talk) 14:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this isn't really about the Fed, but does anyone have the authority to restrict edits so that only registered users can make changes to the article? There are a lot of nonsense edits being made (though they're quickly erased). Anyway, I think it would be a service to the sane majority if we could restrict access. Just a suggestion.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 04:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Ron Paul's Audit the Federal Reserve Bill seems notable enough to make mention of here, especially since it mentions his other (failed) bills involving the Federal Reserve, and especially since HR1207 has more than 218 cosponsors, right? 74.131.16.45 ( talk) 14:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I vote/'motion' to include the bill in the article. It's both historic and a major even concerning the FED directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.3.220 ( talk) 21:32, June 24, 2009
I can't see a reason this shouldn't be included (see: http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/jfkeo/eo/11110.htm), but I don't want to add it myself without putting it here. As near as I can tell, JFK doesn't appear in this article at all, even though he stripped the Fed of their power in an EO. The only amendment I can find revoked section A, which still doesn't affect the reality that Kennedy took away the Federal Reserve's power. Thoughts? 69.155.137.105 ( talk) 18:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I've just reverted an edit from 142.177.156.231, adding a reference for a comment about McFadden. The reference [3] itself appears to be to a user's web-site for an ISP, based on parsing the link. The site has the usual stuff about the the current financial system being bad, etc. As we've seen, some of these sites can take quotes out of context and create something new (see W. Wilson quote and Famspear's work tracking the actual quotes down).
Here, the reference is supposed to be a speech given by McFadden in Congress. At the bottom of the page, there's a link to two scans from the Congressional Record for that speech. It's not the full speech, the scans represent maybe a quarter of the text on the page. Given the history of manufactured quotes that gain a life of their own, I suggest that we're better served here by referencing the best source possible - the Congressional Record. Ravensfire2002 ( talk) 06:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
CROCK - So because you claim it is not the entire speech it is not a valid reference? Can you prove it is not the entire speech? How do you know it is not the entire speech? Is it fair to say that the only way a reference can be made to the speech is if it is a link from the us government? This speech exists in numerous locations on the www web of lies - will you claim that none of the loactions of the speech are valid because they are not official us government www web of lies sites. Even if the copy is not the entire speech as you claim, it still verifies McFadden's opinion of the fed as stated in the article and I have provided the citation that wes deened needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
me too —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I would say that upon review an apology is in order. a very defensive reply on my part.
The facimiles presented sure seem authentic. I'm not certain why anyone would want to alter this difficult to obtain document Or any of the other writings of McFadden; They are not easily available at all and I can't figure out why. There seems to be a classification for web sites as you have described some as 'fringe'. Which fringe? No pro-fed web-site would display a document like this difficult to obtain document. Would a pro-fed website be considered a fringe website?
I have managed to obtain images of the pages in question of the congressional record from volume 78 june 10 1932 pages 12595 through and including 12603 - this is not a fake and it is the whole thing unaltered - I reviewed the requirements for linking and believe this link is permissible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 04:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
So I go and get the document and the entire section gets deleted - is this some type of information supression being practiced here. Is this the I love fed the page or a presentation of facts? Is the a 'fringe' web site? Should I expect an apology for having my research deleted? for having the presentation of FACTS deleted because they do not flatter the fed? Who will apologise for deleting the congress sub-section?
I'm sure that you will leave the McFadden reference in the main article under criticism of the fed since he was IN FACT the chairman of the US House Committee on Banking and Currency for over 10 (ten) years. You cannot justify relegating the comments of someone of McFadden's stature to a sub-article. Moving this stuff is simply an attempt to obfuscate the FACTS. If you want to put stuff in a sub-article why not the economic double talk that litters this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.89.34 ( talk) 12:27, July 13, 2009
Hello, I revived the Criticism of the Federal Reserve article because that section of this page is quite large and a source of great controversy.
At some point, I'd like to shorten the criticism section here because of the redundancy. I'm going to wait a bit, however, because I've made some edits to the information after it was copied and pasted onto the new page and don't want anything important to be lost. Please help if you're able.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 02:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't tinker too much with taking out critisisms, as long as they are not repeatable and/or backed by valid sources. Also, when you delete something from an article as sensitive as this, the subject matter in question should be raised in this discussion section for debate before removal. I would like you to state the specific subject matter in question, and then wait for at least a week for feedback. 99.17.34.154 ( talk) 07:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I think I'm going to start shortening the section tomorrow (Monday), unless there's a lot of objection.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 22:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to the repeated attempts by an IP to add unsourced WP:OR/ WP:Fringe material, I've requested semi-protection for the article. Ravensfire2002 ( talk) 00:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I recommend that we simplify the monetary policy section. There's currently an entire article ( Monetary policy of the USA). We should integrate the information here onto Monetary policy of the USA and then simplify that section here.
I think that the Criticism section also needs to be worked on a bit. The paragraphs don't flow very well and we still have a lot of unsourced material which needs to be addressed.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 18:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The information added is directly from the congressional record. It has been deemed 'craziness' and there is no doubt the events of that day in 1913 were 'craziness'- read the record. The item in quotes is directly from the congressional record and is a statement of fact directly contradicting the claim from the minnesota document. FACT is the congressional record contradicts what is entered from the minnesota document stating that the public has more control when the record undisputedly says otherwise. It is a legitimate entry regarding the federal reserve act. The FACT the power is taken from the public by the federal reserve act is stated on page 1469 of the congressional record by Mr. Bristow and the re-stated by Mr. Works - http://www.scribd.com/doc/17234309/Congressional-Record-Dec-23-1913 - I don't like it - you don't like it but is a FACT Mrpoisson ( talk) 17:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Dark charles I have provided my evidence for the fact that the federal reserve act passed by congress differs from the act passed by the upper house. I have also provided evidence from the congressional record to substantiate that the federal reserve act passed by congress TAKES POWER FROM THE CITIZENS AND GIVES IT TO THE BANKS. You have not shown wikipedia readers anything to indicate otherwise. THe facts are the facts. THe congressional record clearly indicates less power for the people. You must prove otherwise. You must show evidence that the congressional record is wrong untill you do so my edit can be nothing less than valid representation of facts. I have proven my case using US government documents - unless you produce documents contradicting what I have edited you are not allowing the truth to be disclosed for anyone who cares to try and learn why the nation is bankrupt. Mrpoisson ( talk) 23:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
The congressional record is not recommended a source. Two congressmen state in the congressional record that public power has been taken away and more power granted to the banks. The stock is absolutely relevent because it determines who dictates the the direction of the bank and the public has not power to influence the direction of the bank. That is not an important point to make about the way the federal reserve works. The record clearly states a dicrepancy between what the upper house passed and what was proposed to congress and untilmately passed. The congressional record indicates what happend in congress the minnesota fed document is a propaganda lie. The history section misrepresents the facts about control. The change simply stating the the bill was modified is inadequate. The sources stating that support the idea that banks gave up some control are products of the fed after the fact and lies. Just becaiuse I use CAPS once in while does not mean I'm hostile, I'm simply trying to make a very important point regarding the truth. It was my belief that wikipedia was objective and neutral and that truthfullness was a paramount goal. Is publication of the truth the main objective here? additionally - to say that the copy of the congressional record refered to is hard to read is not relevent - if you want to you can read it with ease - weight should be given to the CR over documents produced by the fed - making the statement about public vs private more neutral only hides the truth and the facts Mrpoisson ( talk) 11:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand what is not verifiable about the congressional record , how does quoting the congressional record constitue original research? - thousands of bills may have discrepencacies this however is not any bill. If the facts hurt the pursuit of truth then the whole wiki project is in peril for lack of credibility. fudging over this important point is a disservice to anyone trying to learn about the fed and the politics that created it. the legistative process was not true to itself in the passing of the federal reserve act and documents produced by the fed are not objective Mrpoisson ( talk) 12:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the warning about about terminating my account due to editing. I wish I was 3 people. The evidence provided earlier in this 'discussion' refers to documenation supporting the false idea that the final revison of the federal reserve act favors the public over the banks in terms of power to influence the actions of the bank - I do not see either of these items in the section about the federal reserve that I have been to trying to correct. The 'full vote' refered to in congress is another lie a quorum of 48 senators participated in the debate to pass the act in congress - a congress that was not suppose to adjourn untill 14:30 on the 23rd of dec as reflected here http://www.scribd.com/doc/17411624/Congressional-Record-Dec-22-1913-pg1465 - It has been claimed That I have 'new research' in my quoting from the CR - indeed it is old research - older that any of the three documents that have been referenced to propagate the falsehood of the public getting power in favor of the banks. - simply saying that the act was modified as the last sentence of the federal reserve act section states is a disingenuous representation of the contents of the act. The documentation I have provided is the CR not biased fed stories and I think you know it but are unable to admit it as you must be someone's schill.
So I must conclude firstly, that READING the official record, the congressional record - which is a SINGLE SOURCE and then directly quoting from it is considered 'original research' especially when it conflicts with misinformation that has already been accepted as truth. secondly that directly quoting from the congressional record is creating new ideas and extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say ( despite the FACT I provided direct quotes you call it extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say ) Thirdly, that the CR is NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE NOR A VERIFIABLE SOURCE - despite being advised in the past the CR is the BEST source - lastly, and is completely evident by the previous three items, wikipedia is not about truth - wonderful - it seems to me that since I went and obtained the actual cr for the day in question, posted it on the internet it is all the sudden unreliable; - outrageous - just what do you suppose my agenda is? The entry in question stated somthing that completely contradicts the cr, I made an attempt to correct the entry so that readers of wikipedia might correct information and I get this royal screw around and told my resrearch is no good, my copy of the cr is unreliable and my direct quotes from it are "extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say" this is craziness as the first revrter of my edit said craziness - normally I would not really give a crap but the article in question is about the federal reserve of the US and the wikipedia page for the fed is simply wrong in saying that powers were taken from the banks and given to the people in the version passed by congress and it is not true - and I have shown you that it is not true but truth is not the issue with wikipedia I have just learned - Telling me to get a single source tells me that you have not even looked at what I have done - tell me why the CR is not a single source - I have been accused of using multiple sources tell me how the CR is multiple sources - please defend that - Mr.P Mrpoisson ( talk) 21:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
it is claimed I choose to overlook other sources - There are other sources that say power was taken from the banks, yet you're willing to overlook those sources, just as you're accusing others of doing. - the 'other sources' are the fed itself! c'mon - would you expect the fed produce anydocument that would cast it in a bad light - I submit documents produced by the fed are biased and not objective besides nothing in( http://www.bos.frb.org/about/pubs/begin )refers to the banks yeilding power to the people Mrpoisson ( talk) 01:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The source that was already there disagrees with the statement that banks have more control, however. - where is that source? Mrpoisson ( talk) 02:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I could do nothing short of laughing when reading the first paragraph. Wow, now that looks messy. Not all of us have the oppertunity for an ivy league education, and acknowledge trying to explain the federal reserve has its complexiities. On the other hand, I submit to the editor to simplify the opening paragraph, to entice the median educational reader. For instance, the fed should at least be noted as the issuer of national currency (heck even the word "debt" could be used here without ruining POV). Now I know this is a function, but this function is more profound in explaining the fed in general terms, rather than what it is made of. It's like an extraterestrial being asking humans what water is. According to this article your reply would be,"H20, 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen molecules." When the answer would be more like,"It is the necessity of human life for drinking, cleaning, etc." Forgive me but I must add for a little comic relief...When I read the opening paragraph a song popped into my head (Maybe you guys have heard of it). Conjunction-junction what's your function. Hehe.§ Danimal22 ( talk) 05:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I just noticed that the entire section is poorly source, with the exception of The Federal Reserve Act part. If someone has the time and is willing, I think it would be a good idea to source that information. Dark Charles ( talk) 05:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Today, it appears that a couple of editors have completely gutted the criticism section. There were plenty of well-sourced legitimate criticisms that have been removed with no discussion. I will assume that the editors who made these changes do not understand that there are a large number of editors on this article who demand a democratic process before major changes take place to the article. So I will first ask that the editors who are responsible for these major changes to revert their edits and discuss their proposed changes on this talk page. EzraPoundem ( talk) 22:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Parts of the Criticism sections were trimmed because a lot of it is fringe, undue and weasely.A lot of the criticism are not cited to reliable sources but to political pages. The section could probably use more trimming - it tends to easily get overgrown if not watched closely as everyone with an axe to grind or a kooky idea wants to throw their two cents in there. radek ( talk) 06:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
So I go and get the document and the entire section gets deleted - is this some type of information supression being practiced here. Is this the I love fed the page or a presentation of facts? Is the a 'fringe' web site? Should I expect an apology for having my research deleted? for having the presentation of FACTS deleted because they do nt flatter the fed? Who will apologise for deleting the congress sub-section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 14:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
it has been said that "Parts of the Criticism sections were trimmed because a lot of it is fringe, undue and weasely" much like the way the fed came into existence weasely - - who decided what is fringe? who decides what is mainstream? kinda thin. kinda weasely. kinda lame. Mrpoisson ( talk) 18:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"The [establishment] mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them" -- Henry Louis Mencken -- The "robber Barons" and their stooges have even sent out their lackey's to murder a million Iraqi's for their agenda, lied the people in their faces, and still the jokers here at wikipedia pretend nothing is wrong. They mistake their interpretation of reality for objectivity in the face of anything that is presented of actual EVIDENCE. Common honesty is less common than common sense with these guys. Thomas Paine, Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Edison, Einstein and anyone else of those deceased who were capable of independent thought roll in their graves. But things are coming to a head in the next four to eight years. Let's see whats deemed acceptable " conventional wisdom then. Information wants to be free. We might see some serious changes yet... Nunamiut ( talk) 09:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
This section ( 3.7.1) claims that "A list of all member banks can be found at the website of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)."
Maybe, but where?
I couldn't find even a list of insured banks on the FDIC website. Presumably there are too many to list, so the database is only accessible via search (e.g. their Bank Find page).
Also as discussed here in April 2009, the list of Federal Reserve member banks is in any case only a subset of the list of banks insured by the FDIC.
So where is the list of Federal Reserve member banks? If it exists, a more precise link is needed. If there isn't one, this section should be changed to say so and ideally explain why. Jondoig ( talk) 01:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
There are two stars next to "Vacancy" but no explanation as to what this signifies. 80.193.130.5 ( talk) 14:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Closing as moot per WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive572#Grundle2600:_continued_problems |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Bloomberg News reports, "The Federal Reserve must for the first time identify the companies in its emergency lending programs after losing a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit... Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, who led the biggest expansion of the central bank’s power in its 95-year history, was nominated to a second term today by President Barack Obama... Obama promised a new era of government openness when he took office in January, issuing a statement telling agencies 'to adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure' in responding to requests under FOIA... The case is Bloomberg LP v. Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, 08-CV-9595, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan)." |
This whole article needs rewriting and making it 1-2 page long. Currently it looks like the Fed's PR department has a copy and just pastes this copy inside the article. When you go to the Fed's official web-page and click About, what you see there are some faces and a 16 Mb pdf file with bullshit - this is for fools. Anything in this world can be described in 1 page. The whole history of Fed is history of a deception and conspiracy and needs to be accepted as such. And the editors just maintain and protect this nonsense. There is no point of arguing about some missing part in Criticism section, it's like saying that Jack the Ripper did not brush his teeth before his action. The Fed is doing very well but needs to be clear what. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.13.227 ( talk) 15:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is an abhorrent mess...it requires a ton of cleanup, as well as updating. Smallman12q ( talk) 13:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
DESCRIBE HOW A CHECK DRAWN ON A COMMERCIAL BANK BUT DEPOSITED FOR COLLECTION IN ANOTHER BANK IN A DISTANT CITY MIGHT BE CLEARED THROUGH THE FACILITIES OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.217.228.249 ( talk) 09:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Has it not struck any of you yet? Historic critisism and a critisism section has to be "POV" by its very nature and definition. You cannot "edit" historic criticism. Whats that? Orwellian big brother history writing? It's historic fact now. Wether people agree with the views of the past or not. Nunamiut ( talk) 09:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I completely agree. Which is why I do not understand that there is not a larger and more serious and thorough criticism section. Seeing as it is more than a little blatantly obvious that there are large amounts of well documented historic criticism publicly available from enough reputable sources. As it is, the article makes it seem as if there has been little no historic controversy. It sort of defies both logic and intellectual honesty. Nunamiut ( talk) 10:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
What I was trying to point to was that a serious historic controversy that is not documented is on a par with writing the history of any close election or revolution even, pretending the side that lost did not exist, or somehow weren't all that opposed to the ideas of it's adversaries anyway. It's just not serious portrayal of history or actual events, and it sure as hell isn't 'encyclopedic' by any stretch of the imagination. Nunamiut ( talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore any and all criticism might be construed as "weasel" by someone of the opposing view. Criticism by it's very nature more often than not has to come in the form of a negative. Just a point, if one is at all to understand the nature of ones own undertakings in accomplishing "fair and balanced" viewpoints. Nunamiut ( talk) 07:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The Unemployment rate section is completely lopsided and unsourced...it needs to be rewritten. Smallman12q ( talk) 01:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent addition of a quote attributed to Wilson. This is not a single quote, but several quotes stitched together to create a certain impression. See the discussion on the Federal Reserve Act talk page and on Wikiquote [4]. Ravensfire ( talk) 04:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Reserve System may or may not constitute an "agency" under federal law. The cited source in the article does not state that the SYSTEM is an "agency." The source states that the Board of Governors (which is only part of the system) is an "agency." Let's keep this precise. The System consists of many components, some of which are indeed government agencies and others of which are not. As the opponents of the Federal Reserve System so frequently complain, some parts of the System are indeed "private" (i.e., non-governmental), such as the member banks. If we can find a reliable source that states that the entire system is a government "agency," then fine. But let's stick to what the sources say. Famspear ( talk) 04:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I is not CIVIL to jump to the conclusion that the discussion is over and that a Consensus has been reached since a Consensus most certainly has NOT been reached. Also: Despite your 3RR warning to me, I now point out that you are yourself in violation of 3RR. Since you ALSO deleted the material in question as Original Research please read the material I have added above and the material copied below from my talk page which you may have missed. Since I have other things to do I will look at your responses tomorrow. In order to avoid 3RR violation I advise you to restore the material you deleted on the obviously wrong conclusion that the material in question is original research. Unless you believe that I am Mr. Withers, who died in 1866, I did not originate the concept that striping the power to print legal tender paper money from the US Constitution strips Congress of that power. Material below is copied from my talk page. You seem confused The primary material in question is the "minutes of the debate" provided as a supplement to the conclusion reached by Mr. Withers. As to whether Mr. Withers contradicts what I added to the article, I believe that you actually need to read what Mr Withers wrote http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Please do not confuse what I wrote with what he wrote, despite the similarities HE wrote ALL the following - pay special attention to the bold sections Now, observe, according to the "draft" Congress was to be empowered to "coin money" and "emit bills of credit"--i. e., a paper currency, undoubtedly. Were they the same or equivalent things, in the contemplation of the convention? If so, why specify both? That body knew how to use the English language, and were not given to tautology. The States were prohibited to make anything but "specie" a legal tender without the consent of Congress. The scheme is manifest that proceeded from the brain of the Committee of Five. It was this: Congress alone should issue a paper currency, and the States should be confined, as to a legal tender, to specie, and that alone, unless Congress should "emit bills of credit;" and in that case, the States might, had Congress authorized it, not that they should, make the Federal "bills of credit" a legal tender. But not even by this scheme, as it came from the committee, was Congress empowered to declare what should be a legal tender in payment of debts. But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc.96.237.134.44 (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC) 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 00:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&aq=f&aqi=&oq=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&fp=1c443ffcb5a5cce1 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 11:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
96.237.134.44 ( talk) 15:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC) |
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Yesterday I provided this link to show that the unconstitutional critique of the Federal Reserve is current and ongoing I am now pointing out that the VERY FIRST link provided in that google search is to a wiki article. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_Federal_Reserve_unconstitutional wiki already recognizes that the critique is current and ongoing. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
(<-) reverted re-addition of this materiel per WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. -- 4wajzkd02 ( talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The Federal Reserve also faces criticism of being an unconstitutional and therefore illegal body - ref is http://immortalityroad.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/ron-paul-says-that-federal-reserve-bank-is-unconstitutional/ Congressman Ron Paul "The Federal Reserve System is not a part of our federal government, and there is no reserve of real money (gold and silver), and it is not constitutional." and and http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/09/24/the-federal-reserve-vs-the-constitution/ Congressman Ron Paul "Congress created the Federal Reserve, yet it had no constitutional authority to do so." The criticism over its constitutionality take two forms, one being that Congress cannot transfer a Federal power to a private nongovernmental entity and the other is that Congress cannot exercise a power it does not have, never mind assigning that nonexistent power to a private nongovernmental entity. The power in dispute is the power to issue legal tender paper money, called bills of credit by the Founding Fathers ref is http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b099.htm "Bills of credit may be defined to be paper issued and intended to circulate through the community for its ordinary purposes as money redeemable at a future day." . The criticism that Congress does not have the power to issue paper money is based on the fact that language authorizing this power was removed ref is http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Robert G. Natleson Paper Money and the Original Understanding of the Coinage Clause page 38 - All those who voted to retain the language believed that deleting the language would delete the power from early drafts ref is an early draft of the Constitution http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/draft.html The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to coin money; To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States; of the US Constitution as too subject to abuse ref is (this cite should be placed a bit earlier - my mistke) http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Thomas Jefferson Withers - But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words 'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc. and http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html "Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out 'and emit bills on the credit of the United States' If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary: if they had not, unjust & useless." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." and the belief that the exercise of a power not granted to Congress, is a violation of the Tenth Amendment, which states that powers not granted to the Federal government are retained by either the states or by the people ref is http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The power "to Coin" and the power to "emit bills of credit" are listed as separate powers within the Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution "No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit;" and only the power "to coin" remains as a granted power after the delegates at the Constitutional Convention voted to remove the power to "emit bills of credit". "The Congress shall have Power To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" ref is the US Constitution http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html.
96.237.134.44 ( talk) 00:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Synthesis implies I am coming to an original conclusion. That is in fact not the case. The "excellent source" states others share my point of view and for the same reasons. on Mr. Withers - The constitutionality of paper money is a current issue - see the "excellent source" below as well as continuing attempts by Ron Paul to kill the Fed though Congressional action. on text from the US Constitution - either early draft or final version - it is acceptable to provide section of a historical document to supplement other sources - for clarity f nothing else. If this is not allowed, then the article on the Bill of Rights cannot have a listing of the Bill of Rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights That article not only includes constitutional language but a link to am image of the Bill of Rights. Your point of view is therefore contrary to current wiki practice. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 01:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC) Missed angelfire.com - that link is to a text of the minutes of the vote in question. I have already offered to provide another link to that text. The "excellent source" has the exact same text of the vote. I have no objection to using that or any of a thousand other places where that text exists. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 02:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Direct quote from the Abstract "Over a century ago, the Supreme Court decided the Legal Tender Cases, holding that Congress could authorize legal tender paper money in addition to metallic coin. In recent years some commentators have argued with this holding may have been incorrect" Direct quote from page 4 of that "excellent" source "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 01:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks | |||
---|---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
The power to print paper money (Bills of Credit) was removed from the final version of the US Constitution during the Constitutional Convention that drafted the Constitution as too subject to abuse. That removal was on a vote of 9 to 2. As the power to print money was taken away from the Federal government (it was included as a power in the Articles of Confederation and early drafts of the US Constitution), the Federal government does not have the power to print money. Congress CANNOT transfer a power it does not have to a third party like the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve istherefore an unconstitutional body. To meet objections of original research see link to something written 150 years ago. I HOPE nobody here thinks I am over 150 ears old. http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html
"Mr. Butler, 2ds. the motion." "Mr. Madison, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best." "Mr. Govr. Morris. striking out the words will leave room for notes of a responsible minister which will do all the good without the mischief. The monied interest will oppose the plan of Government, if paper emissions be not prohibited." "Mr. Ghorum was for striking out, without inserting any prohibition. if the words stand they may suggest and lead to the measure." "Col. Mason had doubts on the subject. Congs. he thought would not have the power unless it were expressed. Though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet as he could not foresee all emergencies, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature. He observed that the late war could not have been carried on, had such a prohibition existed." "Mr. Ghorum. The power as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing." "Mr. Mercer was a friend to paper money, though in the present state & temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. He was consequently opposed to a prohibition of it altogether. It will stamp suspicion on the Government to deny it a discretion on this point. It was impolitic also to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. The people of property would be sure to be on the side of the plan, and it was impolitic to purchase their further attachment with the loss of the opposite class of Citizens." "Mr. Ellsworth thought this a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money. The mischiefs of the various experiments which had been made, were now fresh in the public mind and had excited the disgust of all the respectable part of America. By witholding the power from the new Governt. more friends of influence would be gained to it than by almost any thing else. Paper money can in no case be necessary. Give the Government credit, and other resources will offer. The power may do harm, never good." "Mr. Randolph, notwithstanding his antipathy to paper money, could not agree to strike out the words, as he could not foresee all the occasions which might arise." "Mr. Wilson. It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the United States to remove the possibility of paper money. This expedient can never succeed whilst its mischiefs are remembered, and as long as it can be resorted to, it will be a bar to other resources." "Mr. Butler. remarked that paper money was a legal tender in no Country in Europe. He was urgent for disarming the Government of such power." "Mr. Mason was still adverse to tying the hands of the Legislature altogether. If there was no example in Europe as just remarked, it might be observed on the other side, that there was none in which the Government was restrained on this head." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "Mr. Langdon had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words '(and emit bills)'" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.131.111 ( talk) 13:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC) Printing Money addition by User:96.237.134.44 / User:96.237.131.111
Cites supporting my position - showing it is not OR or SYNI believe that Congress does NOT have the power to make paper money a legal tender and does not even have the power to make gold and silver a legal tender.The reference below show clearly that at least one US president and Funding Father agree with me on both counts and that at least two US presidents, and Founding Fathers agree with me on one count. I hope that claims of original research and synthesis can now be put to rest as BOGUS.
James Madison - Thus the pretext for a paper currency and particularly for making the bill a legal tender, either for public or private debt, was cut off Thomas Jefferson - I now deny their (Congress's) power of making paper money, or anything else, a legal tender A Mr Benton who is also cited, states: The power granted to Congress to coin money is an authority to stamp metallic money, and is not an authority for emitting slips of paper containing promises to pay money. Per Yale Law School records of the minutes of the vote to TAKE AWAY from Congress the power to "emit bills of credit" during the Constitutional Convention as recorded by Founding Father and future president James Madison http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_816.asp
and
My aside: The power to be struck out was the power to "emit". Mr. Ghorum, (Madison misspelled the name - the person is actually Nathanial Gorham) states that if the words stand (the words being "emit bills of credit") that "they may suggest and lead to the measure" with the measure being printing legal tender paper money. To be ABSOLUTELY clear, this vote denied Congress the power to "emit" per money, and strikes at the core of arguments in favor of paper money, because Congress cannot make paper money a legal tender because the power to print paper money was REMOVED from Congress. If Congress cannot even print paper money, how can it make it legal tender? In Federalist 44 - Madison states
From Craig v Misouri The whole was intended to exclude everything from use as a circulating medium except gold and silver, and to give to the United States the exclusive control over the coining and valuing of the metallic medium. That the real dollar may represent property, and not the shadow of it. From the dissenting opinion to one of the Legal Tender cases http://supreme.justia.com/us/79/457/case.html - starts with THE CHIEF JUSTICE, dissenting Acts of Congress not made in pursuance of the Constitution are not laws. We perceive no connection between the express power to coin money and the inference that the government may, in any contingency, make its securities perform the functions of coined money, as a legal tender in payment of debts It is unnecessary to say that we reject wholly the doctrine, advanced for the first time, we believe, in this Court by the present majority that the legislature has any "powers under the Constitution which grow out of the aggregate of powers conferred upon the government or out of the sovereignty instituted by it." If this proposition be admitted, and it be also admitted that the legislature is the sole judge of the necessity for the exercise of such powers, the government becomes practically absolute and unlimited. It is true that notes issued by banks, both in England and America, were then in circulation and were used in exchanges, and in common speech called money, and that bills of credit, issued both by Congress and by the states, had been recently in circulation under the same general name; but these notes and bills were never regarded as real money, but were always treated as its representatives only, and were described as currency. The legal tender notes themselves do not purport to be anything else than promises to pay money. They have been held to be securities, and therefore exempt from state taxation, [Footnote 3/13] and the idea that it was ever designed to make such notes a standard of value by the framers of the Constitution is wholly new. The sense of the Convention which framed the Constitution is clear from the account given by Mr. Madison of what took place when the power to emit bills of credit was stricken from the reported draft. He says distinctly that he acquiesced in the motion to strike out because the government would not be disabled thereby from the use of public notes, so far as they would be safe and proper, while it cut off the pretext for a paper currency, and particularly for making the bills a tender either for public or private debts. [Footnote 3/14] The whole discussion upon bills of credit proves beyond all possible question that the Convention regarded the power to make notes a legal tender as absolutely excluded from the Constitution. [Footnote 3/15]' but he added, "NOTHING BUT GOLD AND SILVER COIN CAN BE MADE A TENDER IN PAYMENT OF DEBTS." [Footnote 4/68] Utterances of the kind are found throughout the reported decisions of this Court, but there is not a sentence or word to be found within those volumes, from the organization of the court to the passage of the acts of Congress in question, to support the opposite theory. Excellent source states - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.142.108 ( talk) 13:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC) |
Despite prior consensus being documented in this article's FAQ, an editor ( 67.249.74.255 ( talk)) has been edit warring ( [10], [11], [12], [13] ) to state:
However, in Lewis v. United States (1982), [5] it was ruled that the Federal Reserve is privately owned. In particular, neither the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks are owned by the US Federal Government.
I have left notices regarding the policy for WP:3RR on the editor's talk page, and encouraged said editor to gain WP:CONSENSUS here before adding the text again, per WP:BRD. -- 4wajzkd02 ( talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed my addition to a direct quote from the court case. There's no more disputing my first entries because I have changed them and should be a seperate issue and not count toward my initial warnings.
(
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
00:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
In Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982). the court stated "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purpose of the FTCA, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.”
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Lewis_v_US.htm http://www.nesara.org/court_summaries/lewis_v_united_states.htm
I inserted a quote from a court case. This is NON DISPUTABLE. How can ypu dispute a quote from the court? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 00:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. You cannot dispute a quote. A quote is a quote. Period. 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh good, so then you admit they are private. Werdtoyadonkay ( talk) 01:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
If it's not private then why can't the government audit it? Seems pretty private to me. Common sense. 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 15:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
My previous entry _was_ discussing a pretty specific issue. One look at the criticism section and it is obvious that the entire section is rather lacking. I just found three more unfounded statements that have absolutely no reference, no documentation, and no sources. In fact it might be said that the entire section isn't properly sourced. Hence my feeling that the entry was pretty ridiculous as it stands. Am I allowed to voice that opinion this time or should I expect summarily deletion again for daring to criticise the article? Re your explanation for deletion: "WP:SOAPBOX - please discuss specific changes," etc. Nunamiut ( talk) 03:12, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I could now summarily delete Ravensfires comment as it has nothing to do with this article. Nunamiut ( talk) 02:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has been bastardized by adding the following. Please correct and lock the article for further editing:
Destroying the nation's economy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum unemployment, high unstable prices, and short-term bubbles which burst if you blow on the them too hard. Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the unsoundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect failing companies that should go bankrupt. Maintaining a failing financial system and taking away the risks that arise in financial markets that self-regulate greed and Malinvestment. Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including maintenance costs of Ben Bernanke's Helicopter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goganess ( talk • contribs) 08:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I was going to add the {{Very Long}} tag to this article, but noticed the smaller tag already there suggesting that this article may be a good candidate for breaking up into multiple smaller articles. I personally would vote "yea" to doing this; as it stands, the article is simply too long with too much content in one space; one cannot easily get a "rundown" of what the fed is about without surfing through tons of detail you might notbe looking for or interested in. Spiral5800 ( talk) 20:41, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not state that the Federal Reserve Association is a private company that was incorporated in 1914 in the state of Delaware? https://delecorp.delaware.gov/tin/GINameSearch.jsp
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammy8912 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, December 18, 2009
No, as Wikipedia editors, we do not have to prove that "Federal Reserve Association" is not associated with "Federal Reserve System," any more than we have to prove that any other two organizations with similar names are not associated with each other. That's not how Wikipedia works.
If you as a Wikipedia editor have something from a reliable previously published third party source to the effect that there is some sort of association betweeen the two, then let's hear about it. Famspear ( talk) 02:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This reads " ... think that Federal Reserve System helped to cause the Great Depression." This is misleading because it seems to imply the following: All these people thought that the Fed caused the depression through positive action; if there were no Fed then there wouldn't have been any depression. They all didn't think that of course; Bernanke for instance thought that it was LACK of action on the part of the fed that was responsible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.201.44.122 ( talk) 06:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The figures stated in the balance sheet and networth section of the article are not audited figures. It should be stated in the article that the figures were internally prepared by the Federal Reserve, and that the figures were not audited by an independent accountability organization such as the GAO, so there is a possibility that they could be inaccurate http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21427.html Sammy8912 ( talk) 02:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
No, Wikipedia is not in the business of evaluating the reliability of audited -- or unaudited -- figures in financial statements that are mentioned in Wikipedia articles. However, if you have a previously published third party source that says the Federal Reserve System financial statements are (because of the lack of an audit) "possibly inaccurate," then that can be discussed here.
Sammy, as Wikipedia editors, we are not here to evaluate the Federal Reserve System ourselves. We are here to write a Wikipedia article based on what OTHER people (previously published, reliable third party sources) have written about the subject (in this case, the Federal Reserve System). Famspear ( talk) 02:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has been bastardized by adding the below edits. Please fix and lock the article from further editing.
Destroying the nation's economy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum unemployment, high unstable prices, and short-term bubbles which burst if you blow on the them too hard. Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the unsoundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect failing companies that should go bankrupt. Maintaining a failing financial system and taking away the risks that arise in financial markets that self-regulate greed and Malinvestment. Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including maintenance costs of Ben Bernanke's Helicopter.
Goganess 1-22-2010
Goganess (
talk)
08:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I had edited one portion of your first sentence to accurately reflect the truth about how and why the Federal Reserve Bank was imposed upon the American people. The misleading part is in bold below.
"The Federal Reserve System (also known as the Federal Reserve, and informally as the Fed) is the central banking system of the United States. It was created in 1913, with the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act, and was largely a response to prior financial panics and bank runs, the most severe of which being the Panic of 1907.[1][2][3]"
This is completely inaccurate. The banking interests that pushed for the central bank did so strictly out of a desire to be able to control their ability to expand fractal banking. They simply pointed to recent financial crises as a duplicitous justification, and this is how the myth was born that the Federal Reserve Bank was implemented to "help" control an otherwise volatile economy. In fact, all previous crises and bank runs were born from fractal banking to begin with. The very institution that was and is supposed to be helping us is causing the problems. Please refer to http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf for verification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litwinp ( talk • contribs) on 27 January 2010.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think it would be worthwhile to include information on the relationship between the Federal Reserve and the United States Treasury. It is mentioned in the "Central bank" and "Independent" sections briefly but there is more stuff involved. I'll start a list of some of the things involved in the relationship below: Analoguni ( talk) 06:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the references are a little sloppy. I'm not questioning the sources but format/method used. I think they can done in a better way. I've seen some articles where the "references" section is linked to the "bibliography" section. This is useful when different pages from one source are used throughout an article. The reference will show the page number and it will be a hyperlink to the title in the bibliography section. There are several references in this article in which this should probably be done. For other references, there doesn't seem to be a standard format being used. I think these can be presented in a neater way. I'm responsible for some of these, such as ones which contain quotes, and it would probably be a good idea to have some consistency as to how this is done. Analoguni ( talk) 06:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Without naming any names, let me just say this:
The fact that one holds a Juris Doctor doesn't make one a de facto authority on the banking system of the United States. It is a VERIFIABLE FACT--one that Alan Greenspan himself has repeatedly disclosed in public on numerous occasions--that the Federal Reserve Bank system is a private entity beholden to none. Not even the congress. Period. Why is it, that any time someone attempts to post this fact to this entry, some ignorant dolt removes it? What is the problem? Why are you people so terrified the truth might get out? Do you work at the fed, or what? The word "federal" was specifically chosen back in 1913 in order to mislead the public; to lull them into believing the Fed was somehow a "quasi-government" agency. So, is it safe to say then, that those of you who patently refuse to allow the true nature of the central bank to be posted here are in absolute denial or are you just as totally ignorant as the citizenry of that era? Like another poster stated in this discussion, "there are so many lies and falsehoods" in this article, it is difficult to know where to begin...and you folks who refuse to acknowledge this situation are delusional if you think you're educating anybody. To call this entire entry misleading is a colossal understatement. It's nothing more than propaganda.
As far as this film "Zeitgeist" goes...NEVER HEARD OF IT. My statements are based simply on my study of U.S. monetary policy while obtaining my Master's degree in Economics from The College of William & Mary (1998). We call it education. Some of you people might want to try it sometime.
Jimmy ( talk) 03:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Closer71
I have a feeling that this has to do with something called "Nerd Rage" That is when something doesnt follow every single guideline of Wikipedia they say it is an opinion and needs to be removed other wise their editing days will end and everyone will suffer because of it. Next time you put an arguement cite it with modern money mechanics, the book written by the federal reserve in 1913. This book contains all info about the fed being a private organization, and is a legible source. Oh and all of you nerds living in your moms basement trolling wikipedia for things that you dont think are correct... Modern Money Mechanics is a legible source and may be cited as one. Just because there isnt a wikipedia page doesnt make it a false source you tards, stop having ocd attacks. Feel free to reply to this at any time or email me at randomrd@gmail.com, I will be copying this and reposting it daily to prevent editing. 71.55.122.30 ( talk) 04:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Sam Gelman
Thanks for "sharing your feelings" again to Famspear and mr. Gelman. One name springs to mind.
Norman Dodd. But I guess history isn't important to anyone anymore. oh well. Enjoy your debates on this rotten corporation while the
Pacific Garbage Patch grows accordingly. Other historians up ahead will probably not be so impressed with your skills either in market economic theory nor accuracy in describing history. But it doesn't seem to bother you just now, now does it? Here's a few other words that spring to mind: mass psychosis and utter lunacy. So long.
Nunamiut (
talk)
21:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I am new to editing on Wikipedia so please be mindful of my ignorance to it's policies. I have been trying to add a section about the current End The FED movement in place to abolish the FED and I thought I was posting incorrectly because the post kept disappearing. I have since found out that it was being deleted and I was actually involved in a edit war hence the reason for this post. Here is the entry I have written that I believe is something that people should be aware of in regards to understanding the FED. It seems the one of the problems may be neutrality so I am here to request assistance for this and and other "problems" that make it not preferable to be listed in an encyclopedic reference. Thank you.
Ron Paul has been the leader in a grassroots campaign, Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty, to restore the Constitutional rights to the people of the United States. In the 111st Congress, 2009-2010, Representative Paul introduced a bill to "End the FED", H.R. 833: Federal Reserve Board Abolition Act. [1] Support for this movement has grown rampantly, with much public and media attention, due to the failing U.S. economy with the Federal Reserves Fractional-reserve banking system believed to be at it's root. Mass protests were held in front of Federal Reserve buildings in 38 U.S. cities on November 22nd, 2008 and plans for another rally to "Repeal the FED", in support of Bill H.R. 833, are being discussed to occur in 40 U.S cities on April 25th, 2009. The "End the FED" campaign [2] and "Restore the Republic" [3]have been working diligently to increase exposure for Bill H.R. 833 as well as fighting to secure many other constitutional liberties for " We The People of the United States".
No problem. Thank you for coming to the talk page. Note that the software will automatically sign and date your comments if you type four tildes ("~~~~").
The main problem I see with this section is sourcing. The protests and plans don't seem to be based upon reliable sources, see WP:RS. I'm also not confident that these are very notable to the topic either—that is, I suspect they're undue weight, see WP:UNDUE. Reliable sources from independent publishers would help demonstrate the magnitude of this movement.
Part of this section seems to be already covered in the article. Ron Paul is mentioned in three sections of this article, and one of them does explain that he submits bill to abolish the Fed every year. We could certainly provide a citation to his latest proposal. Generally, this article is overlong and rambling, and I think the size of it causes redundancies that we should try to avoid. Cool Hand Luke 19:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I also agree with fellow editors that this article is pretty long. I express no opinion on the notability or non-notability of the "end the fed" material but, assuming it belongs in Wikipedia, I agree that it might work better as a separate article. Famspear ( talk) 18:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as the member banks lists are available on the regional fed sites it doens't make sense to drag the FDIC into this. It is needlessly confusing. This section should be deleted and replaced with links to Fed Bank lists, if it is needed at all. They chart, likewise,must go.
Unless I get some reason why the current stuff should stay I will make this change in a few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.177.193 ( talk) 20:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that if people become confused with the FDIC list, it is because the U.S. banking system is confusing. I think the U.S. banking system is confusing because it evolved over time with some things kept and some things discarded. With that said, I would like to be able to get ahold of what all the types of banks in the United States are and where to get a list of all of them. Since I'm a little confused as to how banking in the U.S. is organized, I'm going to put in some info here on what I know so far.
As is stated at the top of the "Member banks" section in the article and referenced on page 12 of "Purposes and Functions", all of the commercial banks in the USA are divided into 3 types:
So, what exactly is a commercial bank? What other types of banks are there? Also, not all banks in the USA are insured by the FDIC. So, what banks are not insured by the FDIC?
I'm going to include the exact quotes from 2 official federal reserve souces which give some clues and numbers:
In Purposes and Functions on page 12:
From federalreserveeducation.org at http://www.federalreserveeducation.org/fed101_html/structure/tour/tour.htm:
The law (U.S. Code) says that national banks are all insured by the FDIC ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/222.html) but I would like to find what part of U.S. code says that all state members are also insured by the FDIC.
Title 12, Chapter 16 of U.S Code is the part for the FDIC ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode12/usc_sup_01_12_10_16.html). The "Definitions" are in section 1813 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/1813-) which actually defines the types of banks but I'm not sure if this is complete because it's under the FDIC chapter and there are banks that are not insured by the FDIC.
Dr. Econ (an official federal reserve source) gives some information on the types of banks in the United States and their regulators: http://www.frbsf.org/education/activities/drecon/answerxml.cfm?selectedurl=/2006/0611.html There is also a link on that page to a document titled, Banking Institutions and Their Regulators at: http://www.newyorkfed.org/banking/regrept/BIATR.pdf
If anyone can help out here, that would be great. This could help get rid of some confusion. Analoguni ( talk) 21:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
In the transparency issues section:
United States congressman Ron Paul, well-known for being a critic of the Federal Reserve System, has said in regards to FOMC transparency issues...
In the inflation section:
United States Congressman Ron Paul, ranking member of the Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy (of the House Banking Committee), has also criticized Federal Reserve policy for creating and downplaying excessive inflation...
In the "business cycles, libertarian..." section:
Many libertarians also contend that the Federal Reserve Act is unconstitutional. Congressman Ron Paul (ranking member of the House Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy), for example, argues that...
In the "congress" section:
Currently, Congressman Paul is the ranking member of the Monetary Policy Subcommittee and he is a staunch opponent of the Federal Reserve System. During each Congress Paul introduces a bill to abolish the Federal Reserve System...
Isn't this undue weight? His opinion is certainly notable enough to be mentioned, but not four times in different sections throughout the article. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 21:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The criticism's section overall needs to be restructured. Some points I'd make (some of which have already been made):
Also, although criticisms sections are frowned upon, sometimes during discussions they are more practical. By separating the neutral content from the critical, we can more easily come to an agreement on what should go up and what should stay. In the past, in various articles relating to monetary theory, they were often filled with fact mixed with gold bug silliness throughout. Eventually, this seems to have been generally dealt with by moving criticism to a criticism section, then cleaning up the criticism section to make it more presentable and encyclopedic. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand, I think the Ron Paul quotes are appropriate as they are in the article because he is a noteworthy United States Congressman who has a reputation for being involved in philosophical discussions about the Federal Reserve System. I think he is also good at explaining his viewpoints in easy to understand ways. If I understand the philosophical debates correctly, people who share the same viewpoints with Ron Paul tend to agree with the things that Ron Paul says and that he says things in ways that a lot of people can understand. In other words, he's a good communicator. So in summary, the Ron Paul quotes are good ones to pick because they aren't just from Ron Paul, but are representative of a lot of people who tend to be critical of the Federal Reserve System so things could be simplified by just quoting Ron Paul. On the other hand, I think that a wikipedia article is better off with a diverse array of sources. I think it is possible to find other people who say essentially the same things that Ron Paul does on particular aspects of the Federal Reserve System. Analoguni ( talk) 03:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
While his status as ranking on a committee doesn't have to be mentioned each time, I would say that since Ron Paul is the congressman most associated with talking about the Federal Reserve and certainly with opposition to it, it is not outrageous for him to be quoted four times in this article.-- Gloriamarie ( talk) 23:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Someone just added a section saying that in 2010 there will be no central banking (See history). Is there a reason this is in the section? If not, I'm going to remove it. - Nonamer98 ( talk) 14:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Federal_Reserve_System#Business_cycles.2C_libertarian_philosophy_and_free_markets
I do not believe Milton Friedman has ever faulted the Federal Reserve for increasing of the money supply, in relation to the Great Depression. This may need to be cleaned up. BigK HeX ( talk) 08:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Some text has been added, which I believe allows an uninitiated reader to come away with a proper sense of weight to some of the small minority perspectives discussed in the article, which is my understanding of WP:UNDUE. A couple of the editors seem to find such notation disagreeable. Would any of you care to discuss why? BigK HeX ( talk) 14:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately this message must be posted over and over again on this talk page, and it appears that it's time for the message again.
One of the many urban legends that repeatedly creeps into Wikipedia is the legend that "The Fed" is a "corporation," or that it is a "private corporation." The legend takes various forms. Readers should simply read the article carefully.
"The Fed" is not a "corporation" at all. Saying that the Fed is a privately owned corporation is like saying that "the universe" is "a planet" merely because the universe CONTAINS planets. The Fed means THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. The SYSTEM contains privately owned corporations. The SYSTEM also includes government agencies. So it's not only incorrect to say that "The Fed" is "privately owned"; it's also meaningless.
The following entities are separate from each other and, together with various other entities, comprise the "Federal Reserve System":
When someone says "Federal Reserve" or "the fed" some people are going to think about the entire "Federal Reserve System," not a specific Federal Reserve Bank (e.g., the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, of Dallas, etc.) or even the Federal Reserve Banks generally. The use of the phrase "Federal Reserve" without the suffix "System" or "Bank" is unfortunately very common, and it may sometimes be a source of confusion.
The court in Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982) (noted above) stated: "Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region." Notice the terminology. Not "the Fed", not the "Federal Reserve System." What the court was talking about was "each Federal Reserve Bank." There are twelve of them.
The Lewis court noted that "the fact that the Federal Reserve Board [and here the court probably meant "the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System"] regulates the Reserve Banks does not make them federal agencies under the [Federal Tort Claims] Act."
To make things more confusing, the court also noted that the "Reserve Banks are deemed to be federal instrumentalities for purposes of immunity from state taxation."
In other words, what the court was talking about in Lewis was not the Federal Reserve System, and not the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, and not the Federal Open Market Committee, and not the member banks of the Federal Reserve System -- but only the specific Federal Reserve Banks themselves (in the Lewis case, specifically the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco). The "Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco" is NOT THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. It's just ONE PART of the System.
So, we have at least two sources of confusion. One is the indiscriminate use of the term "Federal Reserve" without making clear whether we're talking about the entire Federal Reserve System or, alternatively, just the Federal Reserve Banks or, alternatively, the member banks, or some other part of the System.
The second source of confusion is that a Federal Reserve Bank, like other "things" can be considered one "legal thing" (to use a non-technical term) for purposes of one law such as the Federal Tort Claims Act and another "legal thing" for purposes of another law, such as a state tax law. The concept of things being treated one way under one law and another under another law is very familiar to lawyers, judges, etc.
So, the question is not "Who owns the fed", but rather a series of questions, such as:
Note: Ownership of shares in a Federal Reserve Bank is not completely analogous to ownership of shares in ExxonMobil, etc. Ownership of shares in a member bank is more comparable to owning shares of ExxonMobil -- i.e., you or I could theoretically own shares in ExxonMobil or in a member bank.)
Who owns the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System? The answer, obviously, is that no one does, as the Board is really a government entity. See 12 U.S.C. § 241.
Thus, some parts of the Federal Reserve System (such as the member banks) are privately owned and at least one part (the Board of Governors) is a governmental entity.
The important thing is to understand that the Federal Reserve System is composed of various parts, each part having different characteristics -- and it's therefore important that we be clear about what we mean when we say "the fed." Famspear ( talk) 02:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Famspear:
I am admittedly a new Wikipedia contributor, however I see precisely what you are saying here and I thank you for your clarification. To that end I would like further clarification on one particular point, if you would be so kind as to provide it:
Could you shed some light on the details of this "ownership" that is not private ownership in the sense with which we are mostly familiar, i.e. as in owning shares of Exxon Mobile? I ask only because I would prefer clarification here from someone who obviously has a better understanding of the Federal Reserve System (in its entirety). Thank you for your clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.168.171.157 ( talk • contribs) on 4 November 2008.
If you take a look at the Federal Reserve FAQ, it lists who owns the federal reserve.(Or it tries to)..
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
So essentially, the federal reserve is an "independent"(private) bank with a confidential list of shareholders(other banks). Smallman12q ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects
Why did Congress want the Federal Reserve to be relatively independent? The intent of Congress in shaping the Federal Reserve Act was to keep politics out of monetary policy. The System is independent of other branches and agencies of government. It is self-financed and therefore is not subject to the congressional budgetary process.
I love a good debate. Cheers! Smallman12q ( talk) 12:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Allow me to quote Ellen Hodgson Brown, J.D., author of "Web of Debt": "The Federal Reserve is an independent, privately owned corporation. It consists of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks owned by many commercial member banks which hold Federal Reserve Stock in an amount proportional to their size. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York holds the majority of shares in the Federal Reserve System (53 percent). Its [the NY Fed Bank] largest shareholders are the largest commercial banks in the district of New York....[In the NY Fed's case, the largest member banks are Citibank and Chase]. The NY Fed has some 500 member banks."
The "stock" is not traded on any exchange. You or I can't own it. The government can't own it. The stock is private. This is a private corporation. Yes, the president appoints a chairman, but the congress has no power over him. The private stock-owning member banks elects the Federal Reserve board. Recently, I saw the Fed chairman being grilled on C-Span by congressmen wanting to know what institutions they had lent 2 trillion dollars to. Over and over, he refused to say. A government institution refusing to answer congress?
Think about it. If the Fed was a government entity, then when the Fed bought treasury bills, it would pay for them by crediting the treasury with new reserves (creating money out of thin air), and then the treasury would pay itself back with interest. I.e. the government loaning money to itself and paying itself back with interest. The Federal Reserve is a private banking cartel created by an act of congress in 1913. Skipper80501 ( talk) 23:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I am sure everyone agrees that the Federal Reserve Banks are private. We all need to be clear that the Federal Reserve System is the compliation of the board and the private banks. The board is slowly determined by the POTUS, (and confirmed by the Senate) but does so over a lenghthy amount of time and from a list of nominees provided by the private banks.
So this is where the "private or public debate" stems from.
Statements that the "Federal Reserve System is private" are clearly a matter of opinion, because one has to determine and interpret how much influence the private banks have over determining the board.
But statements such as "The Federal Reserve Banks are private" are indisputable fact, backed up by the cited court case or even the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
So I believe that this disctintion needs to be made, and once made, I don't see how all sides won't be able to get along with each other. EzraPoundem ( talk) 22:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Fed is not under direct public control by any of the peoples chosen representatives. The Fed has stock holders in it's member banks, the regional federal reserve banks who are privately owned institutions. The members of the board in the Fed is primarily chosen by unelected officials or officials pre-chosen and afterwards "appointed" by officials after the fact. The public or its elected representatives do not control it and have absolutely no means to control its policies, hence the disingenuous term "independent". Profits from the actions of the fed are derived from knowledge of how and when great changes in the markets will occur, which is information the member regional banks and its owners and shareholders are the only ones who could possibly have prior knowledge and access to. All money in the US are evidence of debt, it is therefore evident that the entire USA pays interest on all its money. a debt that increases so much that every 5, 10 and 20 years there has to be a shearing, just as the gold and silver years of the middle ages when all loans or 50 percent of the loans value were deleted from the books so as not to make the system collapse. the shearing of the public is hidden behind the financial crashes like those of October 1929, October 1987, october 1997, october 2008. The preposterous choice of the same time of the year each time clearly demonstrates the lunacy and vanity of the people behind, or their fondness of astrology and or just sticking it in the face of the parts of the population that are intelligent enough to have noticed the soon to be hundred year old scam since the federal reserve act of 1913. All an easy play really, since so few are smart enough to understands that really all human labour and production should really make the US economy _grow_ every year instead of increasing its debt. so whether there is 10% interest or 5 %, as long as money supply in the US increases their debt will also increase ad infinitum. But people and politicians are brought up to be blindingly adherent to authority so they wont even admit to the scam until decades after it has been revealed. In that regard there is no difference between the left or the right, the right will keep on denying the fact for just as long as the left has denied the faults of the soviets, Stalin or Mao. Most people would rather die than to change their minds or even open them a tiny fraction to new possibilities. It's been repeated throughout the ages but there you have it. "Educated" people are often the worst , since they feel they have unshakeable "proof" of their beliefs. All in all the scam will perpetuate until such time as enough people understands that the only way to change the system is not to vote for _any_ of the mainstream parties or anything that resembles the old authorities. Humanity's combined intellectual capacity should have been able to think and solve its problems, but I think we wont be holding our breaths waiting for anyone to solve any of our current problems any time soon. cheers to you all whatever your favourite delusion might be. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.215.3.220 (
talk •
contribs) on 19 April 2009.
Can anyone please explain the difference to me? -- Tyler D Mace ( talk · contr) 08:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I would vote for the Fed to be classified on the quasi-private end of the spectrum. The Fed banks are owned, though stock, by member banks as stated in the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. However, the Fed Chairman for instance, is appointed by the POTUS. (Although he selects from a list of nominees supplied by the board, and can only re-appoint board members over a lengthy period of time.) This would be an example of public, or governmental control, which shows the quasi-character of the Fed. Clearly, though, because of the nomination process by private Fed banks which make up the system it leans far more towards the private end of the quasi-spectrum. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I deleted several quotations that seem to keep creeping into the article, such as references of Alexander Hamilton. These obviously are not "historical critiques" of the Federal Reserve System and, in some cases, are not even critiques at all. To insert these materials and disguising them as critiques of the Federal Reserve System is not only an act of prohibited original research, it is not very good original research.
Some of the remaining quotations are suspect as well, such as the quotation with the incomplete citation to the Congressional Record. (I left the quotation in, but another editor might remove it.) Legitimate citations should include enough information to point the reader to the exact place where the quotation is found, preferably including a volume number and page number where applicable.
One of the quotes I removed was simply an out-of-context quote from the Lewis case (a case discussed many times in this talk page), and was not a critique at all.
Putting a quotation in the article because a Wikipedia editor imagines that it can be used as a critique is not proper. That is original research by an editor. Instead, a quotation should be treated as a critique only when the person who actually said or wrote the quotation intended it as a critique of the Federal Reserve System. Famspear ( talk) 12:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
However, it must be apparent that the quotes are not directed at the Fed, but rather at the concept of central banking. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this order should be added. Here is some more information: http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htm Mustanggt5000 ( talk) 20:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)Mustanggt5000
This order basically opened the silver window, allowing citizens to redeem paper dollars with silver coin. While it is related to the Federal Reserve somewhat, I'm not entirely sure how it would appear on the article, under what section, etc. EzraPoundem ( talk) 21:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
this article needs a credible source and list of member banks. The link to FDIC member banks is totally incorrect and has been deleted. Should anyone know of a CREDIBLE source and link to Fed member banks, this article needs it. thanks. Soledad22 ( talk) 03:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Steve: the source is for the FDIC, and this article is about the Federal Reserve System, which are two different entities. The text and link are apples and oranges, and must go since it is totally incorrect and misleading. I have reworked the text for accuracy on this issue.
Soledad22 (
talk)
16:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
State banks are not necessarily insured by the FDIC. However, all Federal Reserve member banks must be insured by the FDIC. National banks are only required to be members of the Federal Reserve System if they are in the 50 states or D.C. Territorial national banks may elect to become members or not. Cool Hand Luke 19:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The intro so far is just a summary of the structure, but it could be useful to include a summary of some other things. Analoguni ( talk) 04:53, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the intro should mention how not every bank in the U.S. is a member of the Fed. National banks are the only ones that are automatically members, whereas state banks voluntarily choose to become members. Also mention how most banks in the U.S. are not members. Some summary statistics can be useful, like saying, "of the 17,000 commercial banks in the U.S., 2,300 are members" or something like that.
To me, the organization of banking is confusing since there are various regulatory agencies and whatnot. The historic evolution of banking in the United States contributes to this, I think.
Some general numbers like the numbers of banks and total assets.
As it stands, the Federal Reserve System is a quasi-public entity (government entity with certain private components).
This really is not accurate, though, as the:
1)Fed Banks are privately owned by member banks
2)The member banks are, of course, private
3)The Fed board is composed from a list of nominees provided by the private banks, and from that list, chosen by the POTUS, confirmed by the Senate.
4) The FOMC is composed of the board members and 5 of the 12 Fed Bank Presidents.
So, the very composition of the "Fed System" is overwhelmingly privately-controlled.
From there, there are minor restrictions on the Fed, such as the FOMC being required to meet 8 times a year.
Basically, the Fed has very few differences from a privately owned public utility company. Certainly we wouldn't say that the utility company is a government entity with private components, would we? We would say it is a private entity granted a monopoly by the government to operate for the public's service.
I'm thinking that changing it to "The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-private entity (privately composed entity with certain government restrictions) which regulates monetary policy for the United States..." as that is a bit more accurate of its nature.
I know it's a more major change so I wanted to get feedback from everyone before making the change. EzraPoundem ( talk) 23:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
"insulate them from political control" is just
newspeak for insulating them from public democratic control and lawful audit. Some people are just totally brainwashed these days. They're even ending up calling democratic action "socialist or "collectivist". The powers that be really have confused people so totally that they dont even know what their own real interests are anymore, not even how to exercise their own rights in the face of private institutions and power. Absolutely fascinating..
Nunamiut (
talk)
04:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Are the members of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System (who do control the FED) official public servants and employees? Is their income recieved from the government and does the income and their job description adhere to governments laws and standards? If the Federal Reserve System is controlled by its board and the board is appointed by , chosen, appointed or elected and paid by private interests then the FED is privately controlled, and also outside public control and "insulated" from "political control", i.e. public control no matter what kind of newspeak you adhere to. But intellectual dishonesty is not going to die easily I gather.
Nunamiut (
talk)
22:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
From St. Louis Fed's Economic Synopsis section
From the Cleveland Fed's Indicators & Data section
Bernanke lecture at 2009 symposium
Ben Bernanke gave a lecture (transcript here) about changes in monetary policy involving the Fed balance sheet at the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond 2009 Credit Markets Symposium, inside the Charlotte, North Carolina branch. I think it's noteworthy because he explains what is going on with the balance sheet and also because he essentially says here that there has been a fundamental change in how monetary policy works:
Analoguni ( talk) 05:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as, "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves." Privately-owned banks own the stock of the Fed. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said:
"Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors."
Similarly, the Federal Reserve Banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks. Taking another look at Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money: "Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.).
The FED banks, which are privately owned, actually issue, that is, create, the money we use. In 1964 the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: "The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them.
Note: Black's Law Dictionary is the most widely-used law dictionary in the United States. It was founded by Henry Campbell Black. It is the reference of choice for definitions in legal briefs and court opinions and has been cited as a secondary legal authority in many U.S. Supreme Court cases. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
This article makes absolutely no mention of JFK's order to close down the Federal Reserve. -- 98.198.220.205 ( talk) 00:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as, "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves." Privately-owned banks own the stock of the Fed. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said:
"Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors."
Similarly, the Federal Reserve Banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks. Taking another look at Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money: "Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.).
The FED banks, which are privately owned, actually issue, that is, create, the money we use. In 1964 the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: "The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them.
Note: Black's Law Dictionary is the most widely-used law dictionary in the United States. It was founded by Henry Campbell Black. It is the reference of choice for definitions in legal briefs and court opinions and has been cited as a secondary legal authority in many U.S. Supreme Court cases. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
There's nothing "quasi" about the completely private control and ownership of the FED. It's completely privately owned, and hence a private institution. it is "insulated" from the publics only way of exerting democratic control: through democratic government, hence no public control! there is nothing democratic or even remotely public about its interests, it's owners or its executive officers, a few government façade appointments of a board already consisting of 95% privately handpicked members is not "quasi-public" and is intellectually dishonest newspeak to say the least to serve up as "facts" to the general public. It's a downright open scam and a pathetic farce, not to mention an insult to anyone with their mental and moral capacity still intact. Does anyone in the general public own any of its stock? is any private person from the general able to purchase ownership of such stock? No. There is so close to nothing "quasi" about the purely private ownership of the FED, that what little image there is of it qualifies neither as "public influence"( i.e. democratic influence" as they so often expressly proclaim is the actual intent not to allow, hence there is nothing "quasi" about its control or ownership. Nunamiut ( talk) 23:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Where's your logic, your reasoning, arguments? Doy have any at all? "The FED is not completely private owned" just because you say it is not??? This line of 'refutation' defies belief. Are you being serious??
Nunamiut (
talk)
00:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I too 'understand'. I understand intellectual dishonesty and a thoroughly mediocre view of this worlds political workings or any ability to comprehend and perceive the worlds political systems is somehow what passes as being objective and pretending to be presenting logical valid arguments and reasoning, without providing either logic, sound reasoning or valid arguments of any kind at all. Just stating your opinion. Well your only attempt at using reasoning or a sound argument is just as if stating private corporations as Exxon or the likes were "government entities" within the fascist states Spain, Portugal or places and states like Indonesia or Thailand simply because they were given (through deceit,pressure or brute force) an almost dictatorial part and immense influence by the government over all aspects industrial planning, execution and legislation. Hey, while we're at it, and since we're intellectually dishonest anyway, why dont we just let Exxon call itself the 'Federal Exxon SYSTEM' and appoint the members Exxon themselves suggest every 14 years and let them dominate all the other oil companies and have all the inside information on all that concerns oil and giving out new prospected oil fields, that would make them " a government entity" all right, and we could all pretend they weren't "completely priavetly owned" and controlled. And sort of like claiming an Exxon gas station is private, but the owning and administrative mother company is a somehow just a "SYSTEM". Yes, it IS a "system", a system that keeps the scam afloat and pushes the pretence in the media. Pretending government, the current administration or any democratic bodies have any say in the appointing of an undemocratic elite that sits for 14 years. It would be fascinating to see all of this inability to conduct simple political analysis if it weren't for the fact that it was so tedious to read so mediocre attempts at defending the very systems that actually create and perpetuate the economic troubles the people of the United States and the world faces. Nunamiut ( talk) 00:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
“The fundamentalist mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them” -- Henry Louis Mencken
Nunamiut (
talk)
00:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Your dishonest definition of ownership notwithstanding. I have not stated any "beliefs" whatsoever. And I will not thank you for anything since the only thing you have provided is nefarious and orwellian (what else?) newspeak. Ownership is defined by the ability one has to exert control or legal claims and ability to influence,and hold/exert power over. Government "agencies" or any part of the US government to put it bluntly, more clearly than ever, do NOT hold or wield ANY such power or control over the FED. As you, the article AND Greenspan & Bernanke both openly have admitted to on camera: central banks, or "systems" as you so euphemistically label it, are "insulated from political influence" as is the term used for making the public believe that they are saved from their own representatives having any democratic influence and control over their own nations moneys and destiny. Nunamiut ( talk) 18:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
As you will see, the 9th circuit court ruled that the Federal Reserve Banks are "independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations", and there is not sufficient "federal government control over 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operation'" of the Federal Reserve Bank for it to be considered a federal agency:
Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982) No. 80-5905 United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.145.47 ( talk • contribs)
The Federal Reserve apparently can't account for $9 trillion in off-balance sheet transactions.
When Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Orlando) asked Inspector General Elizabeth Coleman of the Federal Reserve some very basic questions about where the trillions of dollars that have come from the Fed's expanded balance sheet, the IG didn't know.
Worse, nobody at the Fed seems to have any idea what the losses on its $2 trillion portfolio really are.
"I am shocked to find out that nobody at the Federal Reserve is keeping track of anything," Grayson says.
Source: http://moneynews.newsmax.com/..
Not sure this can account as a reliable source - if not I hope a reliable source will issue a news about it. It would affect the section about the balance sheet in the current article. - 222.225.110.201 ( talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
No, you're not hearing me correctly. Grayson grilling the IG is but one example of the recent FED outrage. There are 170 plus CO-SPONSORS to a bill which will audit the FED entirely. That's not sensationalism, that's huge, legitamite news and MUST be added to the article. The proposed titles were merely propositions. Perhaps Audit Bill of 2009 would be the best choice here. EzraPoundem ( talk) 14:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Earlier this week User:99.132.183.14 added a paragraph after Paul's illegality claim that advanced a theory of why the federal reserve is legal. While I welcome that effort, the paragraph did not describe any theory of legality supported by the federal courts, and in fact directly contradicted the theory that they do support. I replaced the paragraph with one that refers to the relevant case law, but 99.* continues to restore the other paragraph and even claims that it is supported by the cases that contradict it. I can only assume that he has not read these cases.
As a sign of good faith, I attempted to restore one (uncited) part of the paragraph addressing who precisely oversees monetary policy. (It's not the private banks.) Unfortunately the edit does not show up and there is some kind of synchronization problem preventing me from fixing that.
The claim by 99.* that Federal Reserve notes are not money is one that courts have repeatedly found frivolous (a harsh word that courts use to mean "absurd", "crazy", or "not worth their time"). [2] If 99.* continues to restore that claim, it needs to be removed. WillOakland ( talk) 14:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this isn't really about the Fed, but does anyone have the authority to restrict edits so that only registered users can make changes to the article? There are a lot of nonsense edits being made (though they're quickly erased). Anyway, I think it would be a service to the sane majority if we could restrict access. Just a suggestion.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 04:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Ron Paul's Audit the Federal Reserve Bill seems notable enough to make mention of here, especially since it mentions his other (failed) bills involving the Federal Reserve, and especially since HR1207 has more than 218 cosponsors, right? 74.131.16.45 ( talk) 14:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I vote/'motion' to include the bill in the article. It's both historic and a major even concerning the FED directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.3.220 ( talk) 21:32, June 24, 2009
I can't see a reason this shouldn't be included (see: http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/jfkeo/eo/11110.htm), but I don't want to add it myself without putting it here. As near as I can tell, JFK doesn't appear in this article at all, even though he stripped the Fed of their power in an EO. The only amendment I can find revoked section A, which still doesn't affect the reality that Kennedy took away the Federal Reserve's power. Thoughts? 69.155.137.105 ( talk) 18:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I've just reverted an edit from 142.177.156.231, adding a reference for a comment about McFadden. The reference [3] itself appears to be to a user's web-site for an ISP, based on parsing the link. The site has the usual stuff about the the current financial system being bad, etc. As we've seen, some of these sites can take quotes out of context and create something new (see W. Wilson quote and Famspear's work tracking the actual quotes down).
Here, the reference is supposed to be a speech given by McFadden in Congress. At the bottom of the page, there's a link to two scans from the Congressional Record for that speech. It's not the full speech, the scans represent maybe a quarter of the text on the page. Given the history of manufactured quotes that gain a life of their own, I suggest that we're better served here by referencing the best source possible - the Congressional Record. Ravensfire2002 ( talk) 06:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
CROCK - So because you claim it is not the entire speech it is not a valid reference? Can you prove it is not the entire speech? How do you know it is not the entire speech? Is it fair to say that the only way a reference can be made to the speech is if it is a link from the us government? This speech exists in numerous locations on the www web of lies - will you claim that none of the loactions of the speech are valid because they are not official us government www web of lies sites. Even if the copy is not the entire speech as you claim, it still verifies McFadden's opinion of the fed as stated in the article and I have provided the citation that wes deened needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
me too —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I would say that upon review an apology is in order. a very defensive reply on my part.
The facimiles presented sure seem authentic. I'm not certain why anyone would want to alter this difficult to obtain document Or any of the other writings of McFadden; They are not easily available at all and I can't figure out why. There seems to be a classification for web sites as you have described some as 'fringe'. Which fringe? No pro-fed web-site would display a document like this difficult to obtain document. Would a pro-fed website be considered a fringe website?
I have managed to obtain images of the pages in question of the congressional record from volume 78 june 10 1932 pages 12595 through and including 12603 - this is not a fake and it is the whole thing unaltered - I reviewed the requirements for linking and believe this link is permissible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 04:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
So I go and get the document and the entire section gets deleted - is this some type of information supression being practiced here. Is this the I love fed the page or a presentation of facts? Is the a 'fringe' web site? Should I expect an apology for having my research deleted? for having the presentation of FACTS deleted because they do not flatter the fed? Who will apologise for deleting the congress sub-section?
I'm sure that you will leave the McFadden reference in the main article under criticism of the fed since he was IN FACT the chairman of the US House Committee on Banking and Currency for over 10 (ten) years. You cannot justify relegating the comments of someone of McFadden's stature to a sub-article. Moving this stuff is simply an attempt to obfuscate the FACTS. If you want to put stuff in a sub-article why not the economic double talk that litters this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.89.34 ( talk) 12:27, July 13, 2009
Hello, I revived the Criticism of the Federal Reserve article because that section of this page is quite large and a source of great controversy.
At some point, I'd like to shorten the criticism section here because of the redundancy. I'm going to wait a bit, however, because I've made some edits to the information after it was copied and pasted onto the new page and don't want anything important to be lost. Please help if you're able.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 02:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't tinker too much with taking out critisisms, as long as they are not repeatable and/or backed by valid sources. Also, when you delete something from an article as sensitive as this, the subject matter in question should be raised in this discussion section for debate before removal. I would like you to state the specific subject matter in question, and then wait for at least a week for feedback. 99.17.34.154 ( talk) 07:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I think I'm going to start shortening the section tomorrow (Monday), unless there's a lot of objection.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 22:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to the repeated attempts by an IP to add unsourced WP:OR/ WP:Fringe material, I've requested semi-protection for the article. Ravensfire2002 ( talk) 00:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I recommend that we simplify the monetary policy section. There's currently an entire article ( Monetary policy of the USA). We should integrate the information here onto Monetary policy of the USA and then simplify that section here.
I think that the Criticism section also needs to be worked on a bit. The paragraphs don't flow very well and we still have a lot of unsourced material which needs to be addressed.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 18:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The information added is directly from the congressional record. It has been deemed 'craziness' and there is no doubt the events of that day in 1913 were 'craziness'- read the record. The item in quotes is directly from the congressional record and is a statement of fact directly contradicting the claim from the minnesota document. FACT is the congressional record contradicts what is entered from the minnesota document stating that the public has more control when the record undisputedly says otherwise. It is a legitimate entry regarding the federal reserve act. The FACT the power is taken from the public by the federal reserve act is stated on page 1469 of the congressional record by Mr. Bristow and the re-stated by Mr. Works - http://www.scribd.com/doc/17234309/Congressional-Record-Dec-23-1913 - I don't like it - you don't like it but is a FACT Mrpoisson ( talk) 17:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Dark charles I have provided my evidence for the fact that the federal reserve act passed by congress differs from the act passed by the upper house. I have also provided evidence from the congressional record to substantiate that the federal reserve act passed by congress TAKES POWER FROM THE CITIZENS AND GIVES IT TO THE BANKS. You have not shown wikipedia readers anything to indicate otherwise. THe facts are the facts. THe congressional record clearly indicates less power for the people. You must prove otherwise. You must show evidence that the congressional record is wrong untill you do so my edit can be nothing less than valid representation of facts. I have proven my case using US government documents - unless you produce documents contradicting what I have edited you are not allowing the truth to be disclosed for anyone who cares to try and learn why the nation is bankrupt. Mrpoisson ( talk) 23:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
The congressional record is not recommended a source. Two congressmen state in the congressional record that public power has been taken away and more power granted to the banks. The stock is absolutely relevent because it determines who dictates the the direction of the bank and the public has not power to influence the direction of the bank. That is not an important point to make about the way the federal reserve works. The record clearly states a dicrepancy between what the upper house passed and what was proposed to congress and untilmately passed. The congressional record indicates what happend in congress the minnesota fed document is a propaganda lie. The history section misrepresents the facts about control. The change simply stating the the bill was modified is inadequate. The sources stating that support the idea that banks gave up some control are products of the fed after the fact and lies. Just becaiuse I use CAPS once in while does not mean I'm hostile, I'm simply trying to make a very important point regarding the truth. It was my belief that wikipedia was objective and neutral and that truthfullness was a paramount goal. Is publication of the truth the main objective here? additionally - to say that the copy of the congressional record refered to is hard to read is not relevent - if you want to you can read it with ease - weight should be given to the CR over documents produced by the fed - making the statement about public vs private more neutral only hides the truth and the facts Mrpoisson ( talk) 11:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand what is not verifiable about the congressional record , how does quoting the congressional record constitue original research? - thousands of bills may have discrepencacies this however is not any bill. If the facts hurt the pursuit of truth then the whole wiki project is in peril for lack of credibility. fudging over this important point is a disservice to anyone trying to learn about the fed and the politics that created it. the legistative process was not true to itself in the passing of the federal reserve act and documents produced by the fed are not objective Mrpoisson ( talk) 12:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the warning about about terminating my account due to editing. I wish I was 3 people. The evidence provided earlier in this 'discussion' refers to documenation supporting the false idea that the final revison of the federal reserve act favors the public over the banks in terms of power to influence the actions of the bank - I do not see either of these items in the section about the federal reserve that I have been to trying to correct. The 'full vote' refered to in congress is another lie a quorum of 48 senators participated in the debate to pass the act in congress - a congress that was not suppose to adjourn untill 14:30 on the 23rd of dec as reflected here http://www.scribd.com/doc/17411624/Congressional-Record-Dec-22-1913-pg1465 - It has been claimed That I have 'new research' in my quoting from the CR - indeed it is old research - older that any of the three documents that have been referenced to propagate the falsehood of the public getting power in favor of the banks. - simply saying that the act was modified as the last sentence of the federal reserve act section states is a disingenuous representation of the contents of the act. The documentation I have provided is the CR not biased fed stories and I think you know it but are unable to admit it as you must be someone's schill.
So I must conclude firstly, that READING the official record, the congressional record - which is a SINGLE SOURCE and then directly quoting from it is considered 'original research' especially when it conflicts with misinformation that has already been accepted as truth. secondly that directly quoting from the congressional record is creating new ideas and extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say ( despite the FACT I provided direct quotes you call it extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say ) Thirdly, that the CR is NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE NOR A VERIFIABLE SOURCE - despite being advised in the past the CR is the BEST source - lastly, and is completely evident by the previous three items, wikipedia is not about truth - wonderful - it seems to me that since I went and obtained the actual cr for the day in question, posted it on the internet it is all the sudden unreliable; - outrageous - just what do you suppose my agenda is? The entry in question stated somthing that completely contradicts the cr, I made an attempt to correct the entry so that readers of wikipedia might correct information and I get this royal screw around and told my resrearch is no good, my copy of the cr is unreliable and my direct quotes from it are "extending and synthesizing multiple primary sources beyond what they originally say" this is craziness as the first revrter of my edit said craziness - normally I would not really give a crap but the article in question is about the federal reserve of the US and the wikipedia page for the fed is simply wrong in saying that powers were taken from the banks and given to the people in the version passed by congress and it is not true - and I have shown you that it is not true but truth is not the issue with wikipedia I have just learned - Telling me to get a single source tells me that you have not even looked at what I have done - tell me why the CR is not a single source - I have been accused of using multiple sources tell me how the CR is multiple sources - please defend that - Mr.P Mrpoisson ( talk) 21:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
it is claimed I choose to overlook other sources - There are other sources that say power was taken from the banks, yet you're willing to overlook those sources, just as you're accusing others of doing. - the 'other sources' are the fed itself! c'mon - would you expect the fed produce anydocument that would cast it in a bad light - I submit documents produced by the fed are biased and not objective besides nothing in( http://www.bos.frb.org/about/pubs/begin )refers to the banks yeilding power to the people Mrpoisson ( talk) 01:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The source that was already there disagrees with the statement that banks have more control, however. - where is that source? Mrpoisson ( talk) 02:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I could do nothing short of laughing when reading the first paragraph. Wow, now that looks messy. Not all of us have the oppertunity for an ivy league education, and acknowledge trying to explain the federal reserve has its complexiities. On the other hand, I submit to the editor to simplify the opening paragraph, to entice the median educational reader. For instance, the fed should at least be noted as the issuer of national currency (heck even the word "debt" could be used here without ruining POV). Now I know this is a function, but this function is more profound in explaining the fed in general terms, rather than what it is made of. It's like an extraterestrial being asking humans what water is. According to this article your reply would be,"H20, 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen molecules." When the answer would be more like,"It is the necessity of human life for drinking, cleaning, etc." Forgive me but I must add for a little comic relief...When I read the opening paragraph a song popped into my head (Maybe you guys have heard of it). Conjunction-junction what's your function. Hehe.§ Danimal22 ( talk) 05:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I just noticed that the entire section is poorly source, with the exception of The Federal Reserve Act part. If someone has the time and is willing, I think it would be a good idea to source that information. Dark Charles ( talk) 05:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Today, it appears that a couple of editors have completely gutted the criticism section. There were plenty of well-sourced legitimate criticisms that have been removed with no discussion. I will assume that the editors who made these changes do not understand that there are a large number of editors on this article who demand a democratic process before major changes take place to the article. So I will first ask that the editors who are responsible for these major changes to revert their edits and discuss their proposed changes on this talk page. EzraPoundem ( talk) 22:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Parts of the Criticism sections were trimmed because a lot of it is fringe, undue and weasely.A lot of the criticism are not cited to reliable sources but to political pages. The section could probably use more trimming - it tends to easily get overgrown if not watched closely as everyone with an axe to grind or a kooky idea wants to throw their two cents in there. radek ( talk) 06:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
So I go and get the document and the entire section gets deleted - is this some type of information supression being practiced here. Is this the I love fed the page or a presentation of facts? Is the a 'fringe' web site? Should I expect an apology for having my research deleted? for having the presentation of FACTS deleted because they do nt flatter the fed? Who will apologise for deleting the congress sub-section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpoisson ( talk • contribs) 14:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
it has been said that "Parts of the Criticism sections were trimmed because a lot of it is fringe, undue and weasely" much like the way the fed came into existence weasely - - who decided what is fringe? who decides what is mainstream? kinda thin. kinda weasely. kinda lame. Mrpoisson ( talk) 18:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"The [establishment] mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them" -- Henry Louis Mencken -- The "robber Barons" and their stooges have even sent out their lackey's to murder a million Iraqi's for their agenda, lied the people in their faces, and still the jokers here at wikipedia pretend nothing is wrong. They mistake their interpretation of reality for objectivity in the face of anything that is presented of actual EVIDENCE. Common honesty is less common than common sense with these guys. Thomas Paine, Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Edison, Einstein and anyone else of those deceased who were capable of independent thought roll in their graves. But things are coming to a head in the next four to eight years. Let's see whats deemed acceptable " conventional wisdom then. Information wants to be free. We might see some serious changes yet... Nunamiut ( talk) 09:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
This section ( 3.7.1) claims that "A list of all member banks can be found at the website of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)."
Maybe, but where?
I couldn't find even a list of insured banks on the FDIC website. Presumably there are too many to list, so the database is only accessible via search (e.g. their Bank Find page).
Also as discussed here in April 2009, the list of Federal Reserve member banks is in any case only a subset of the list of banks insured by the FDIC.
So where is the list of Federal Reserve member banks? If it exists, a more precise link is needed. If there isn't one, this section should be changed to say so and ideally explain why. Jondoig ( talk) 01:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
There are two stars next to "Vacancy" but no explanation as to what this signifies. 80.193.130.5 ( talk) 14:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Closing as moot per WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive572#Grundle2600:_continued_problems |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Bloomberg News reports, "The Federal Reserve must for the first time identify the companies in its emergency lending programs after losing a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit... Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, who led the biggest expansion of the central bank’s power in its 95-year history, was nominated to a second term today by President Barack Obama... Obama promised a new era of government openness when he took office in January, issuing a statement telling agencies 'to adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure' in responding to requests under FOIA... The case is Bloomberg LP v. Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, 08-CV-9595, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan)." |
This whole article needs rewriting and making it 1-2 page long. Currently it looks like the Fed's PR department has a copy and just pastes this copy inside the article. When you go to the Fed's official web-page and click About, what you see there are some faces and a 16 Mb pdf file with bullshit - this is for fools. Anything in this world can be described in 1 page. The whole history of Fed is history of a deception and conspiracy and needs to be accepted as such. And the editors just maintain and protect this nonsense. There is no point of arguing about some missing part in Criticism section, it's like saying that Jack the Ripper did not brush his teeth before his action. The Fed is doing very well but needs to be clear what. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.13.227 ( talk) 15:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is an abhorrent mess...it requires a ton of cleanup, as well as updating. Smallman12q ( talk) 13:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
DESCRIBE HOW A CHECK DRAWN ON A COMMERCIAL BANK BUT DEPOSITED FOR COLLECTION IN ANOTHER BANK IN A DISTANT CITY MIGHT BE CLEARED THROUGH THE FACILITIES OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.217.228.249 ( talk) 09:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Has it not struck any of you yet? Historic critisism and a critisism section has to be "POV" by its very nature and definition. You cannot "edit" historic criticism. Whats that? Orwellian big brother history writing? It's historic fact now. Wether people agree with the views of the past or not. Nunamiut ( talk) 09:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I completely agree. Which is why I do not understand that there is not a larger and more serious and thorough criticism section. Seeing as it is more than a little blatantly obvious that there are large amounts of well documented historic criticism publicly available from enough reputable sources. As it is, the article makes it seem as if there has been little no historic controversy. It sort of defies both logic and intellectual honesty. Nunamiut ( talk) 10:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
What I was trying to point to was that a serious historic controversy that is not documented is on a par with writing the history of any close election or revolution even, pretending the side that lost did not exist, or somehow weren't all that opposed to the ideas of it's adversaries anyway. It's just not serious portrayal of history or actual events, and it sure as hell isn't 'encyclopedic' by any stretch of the imagination. Nunamiut ( talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore any and all criticism might be construed as "weasel" by someone of the opposing view. Criticism by it's very nature more often than not has to come in the form of a negative. Just a point, if one is at all to understand the nature of ones own undertakings in accomplishing "fair and balanced" viewpoints. Nunamiut ( talk) 07:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The Unemployment rate section is completely lopsided and unsourced...it needs to be rewritten. Smallman12q ( talk) 01:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent addition of a quote attributed to Wilson. This is not a single quote, but several quotes stitched together to create a certain impression. See the discussion on the Federal Reserve Act talk page and on Wikiquote [4]. Ravensfire ( talk) 04:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Reserve System may or may not constitute an "agency" under federal law. The cited source in the article does not state that the SYSTEM is an "agency." The source states that the Board of Governors (which is only part of the system) is an "agency." Let's keep this precise. The System consists of many components, some of which are indeed government agencies and others of which are not. As the opponents of the Federal Reserve System so frequently complain, some parts of the System are indeed "private" (i.e., non-governmental), such as the member banks. If we can find a reliable source that states that the entire system is a government "agency," then fine. But let's stick to what the sources say. Famspear ( talk) 04:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I is not CIVIL to jump to the conclusion that the discussion is over and that a Consensus has been reached since a Consensus most certainly has NOT been reached. Also: Despite your 3RR warning to me, I now point out that you are yourself in violation of 3RR. Since you ALSO deleted the material in question as Original Research please read the material I have added above and the material copied below from my talk page which you may have missed. Since I have other things to do I will look at your responses tomorrow. In order to avoid 3RR violation I advise you to restore the material you deleted on the obviously wrong conclusion that the material in question is original research. Unless you believe that I am Mr. Withers, who died in 1866, I did not originate the concept that striping the power to print legal tender paper money from the US Constitution strips Congress of that power. Material below is copied from my talk page. You seem confused The primary material in question is the "minutes of the debate" provided as a supplement to the conclusion reached by Mr. Withers. As to whether Mr. Withers contradicts what I added to the article, I believe that you actually need to read what Mr Withers wrote http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Please do not confuse what I wrote with what he wrote, despite the similarities HE wrote ALL the following - pay special attention to the bold sections Now, observe, according to the "draft" Congress was to be empowered to "coin money" and "emit bills of credit"--i. e., a paper currency, undoubtedly. Were they the same or equivalent things, in the contemplation of the convention? If so, why specify both? That body knew how to use the English language, and were not given to tautology. The States were prohibited to make anything but "specie" a legal tender without the consent of Congress. The scheme is manifest that proceeded from the brain of the Committee of Five. It was this: Congress alone should issue a paper currency, and the States should be confined, as to a legal tender, to specie, and that alone, unless Congress should "emit bills of credit;" and in that case, the States might, had Congress authorized it, not that they should, make the Federal "bills of credit" a legal tender. But not even by this scheme, as it came from the committee, was Congress empowered to declare what should be a legal tender in payment of debts. But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc.96.237.134.44 (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC) 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 00:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&aq=f&aqi=&oq=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&fp=1c443ffcb5a5cce1 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 11:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
96.237.134.44 ( talk) 15:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC) |
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Yesterday I provided this link to show that the unconstitutional critique of the Federal Reserve is current and ongoing I am now pointing out that the VERY FIRST link provided in that google search is to a wiki article. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_Federal_Reserve_unconstitutional wiki already recognizes that the critique is current and ongoing. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
(<-) reverted re-addition of this materiel per WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. -- 4wajzkd02 ( talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The Federal Reserve also faces criticism of being an unconstitutional and therefore illegal body - ref is http://immortalityroad.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/ron-paul-says-that-federal-reserve-bank-is-unconstitutional/ Congressman Ron Paul "The Federal Reserve System is not a part of our federal government, and there is no reserve of real money (gold and silver), and it is not constitutional." and and http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/09/24/the-federal-reserve-vs-the-constitution/ Congressman Ron Paul "Congress created the Federal Reserve, yet it had no constitutional authority to do so." The criticism over its constitutionality take two forms, one being that Congress cannot transfer a Federal power to a private nongovernmental entity and the other is that Congress cannot exercise a power it does not have, never mind assigning that nonexistent power to a private nongovernmental entity. The power in dispute is the power to issue legal tender paper money, called bills of credit by the Founding Fathers ref is http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b099.htm "Bills of credit may be defined to be paper issued and intended to circulate through the community for its ordinary purposes as money redeemable at a future day." . The criticism that Congress does not have the power to issue paper money is based on the fact that language authorizing this power was removed ref is http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Robert G. Natleson Paper Money and the Original Understanding of the Coinage Clause page 38 - All those who voted to retain the language believed that deleting the language would delete the power from early drafts ref is an early draft of the Constitution http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/draft.html The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to coin money; To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States; of the US Constitution as too subject to abuse ref is (this cite should be placed a bit earlier - my mistke) http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Thomas Jefferson Withers - But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words 'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc. and http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html "Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out 'and emit bills on the credit of the United States' If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary: if they had not, unjust & useless." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." and the belief that the exercise of a power not granted to Congress, is a violation of the Tenth Amendment, which states that powers not granted to the Federal government are retained by either the states or by the people ref is http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The power "to Coin" and the power to "emit bills of credit" are listed as separate powers within the Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution "No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit;" and only the power "to coin" remains as a granted power after the delegates at the Constitutional Convention voted to remove the power to "emit bills of credit". "The Congress shall have Power To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" ref is the US Constitution http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html.
96.237.134.44 ( talk) 00:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Synthesis implies I am coming to an original conclusion. That is in fact not the case. The "excellent source" states others share my point of view and for the same reasons. on Mr. Withers - The constitutionality of paper money is a current issue - see the "excellent source" below as well as continuing attempts by Ron Paul to kill the Fed though Congressional action. on text from the US Constitution - either early draft or final version - it is acceptable to provide section of a historical document to supplement other sources - for clarity f nothing else. If this is not allowed, then the article on the Bill of Rights cannot have a listing of the Bill of Rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights That article not only includes constitutional language but a link to am image of the Bill of Rights. Your point of view is therefore contrary to current wiki practice. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 01:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC) Missed angelfire.com - that link is to a text of the minutes of the vote in question. I have already offered to provide another link to that text. The "excellent source" has the exact same text of the vote. I have no objection to using that or any of a thousand other places where that text exists. 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 02:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Direct quote from the Abstract "Over a century ago, the Supreme Court decided the Legal Tender Cases, holding that Congress could authorize legal tender paper money in addition to metallic coin. In recent years some commentators have argued with this holding may have been incorrect" Direct quote from page 4 of that "excellent" source "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" 96.237.134.44 ( talk) 01:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
|
Discussion by a single-purpose editor with multiple IPs blocked for disruption and personal attacks | |||
---|---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
The power to print paper money (Bills of Credit) was removed from the final version of the US Constitution during the Constitutional Convention that drafted the Constitution as too subject to abuse. That removal was on a vote of 9 to 2. As the power to print money was taken away from the Federal government (it was included as a power in the Articles of Confederation and early drafts of the US Constitution), the Federal government does not have the power to print money. Congress CANNOT transfer a power it does not have to a third party like the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve istherefore an unconstitutional body. To meet objections of original research see link to something written 150 years ago. I HOPE nobody here thinks I am over 150 ears old. http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html
"Mr. Butler, 2ds. the motion." "Mr. Madison, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best." "Mr. Govr. Morris. striking out the words will leave room for notes of a responsible minister which will do all the good without the mischief. The monied interest will oppose the plan of Government, if paper emissions be not prohibited." "Mr. Ghorum was for striking out, without inserting any prohibition. if the words stand they may suggest and lead to the measure." "Col. Mason had doubts on the subject. Congs. he thought would not have the power unless it were expressed. Though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet as he could not foresee all emergencies, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature. He observed that the late war could not have been carried on, had such a prohibition existed." "Mr. Ghorum. The power as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing." "Mr. Mercer was a friend to paper money, though in the present state & temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. He was consequently opposed to a prohibition of it altogether. It will stamp suspicion on the Government to deny it a discretion on this point. It was impolitic also to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. The people of property would be sure to be on the side of the plan, and it was impolitic to purchase their further attachment with the loss of the opposite class of Citizens." "Mr. Ellsworth thought this a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money. The mischiefs of the various experiments which had been made, were now fresh in the public mind and had excited the disgust of all the respectable part of America. By witholding the power from the new Governt. more friends of influence would be gained to it than by almost any thing else. Paper money can in no case be necessary. Give the Government credit, and other resources will offer. The power may do harm, never good." "Mr. Randolph, notwithstanding his antipathy to paper money, could not agree to strike out the words, as he could not foresee all the occasions which might arise." "Mr. Wilson. It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the United States to remove the possibility of paper money. This expedient can never succeed whilst its mischiefs are remembered, and as long as it can be resorted to, it will be a bar to other resources." "Mr. Butler. remarked that paper money was a legal tender in no Country in Europe. He was urgent for disarming the Government of such power." "Mr. Mason was still adverse to tying the hands of the Legislature altogether. If there was no example in Europe as just remarked, it might be observed on the other side, that there was none in which the Government was restrained on this head." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "Mr. Langdon had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words '(and emit bills)'" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.131.111 ( talk) 13:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC) Printing Money addition by User:96.237.134.44 / User:96.237.131.111
Cites supporting my position - showing it is not OR or SYNI believe that Congress does NOT have the power to make paper money a legal tender and does not even have the power to make gold and silver a legal tender.The reference below show clearly that at least one US president and Funding Father agree with me on both counts and that at least two US presidents, and Founding Fathers agree with me on one count. I hope that claims of original research and synthesis can now be put to rest as BOGUS.
James Madison - Thus the pretext for a paper currency and particularly for making the bill a legal tender, either for public or private debt, was cut off Thomas Jefferson - I now deny their (Congress's) power of making paper money, or anything else, a legal tender A Mr Benton who is also cited, states: The power granted to Congress to coin money is an authority to stamp metallic money, and is not an authority for emitting slips of paper containing promises to pay money. Per Yale Law School records of the minutes of the vote to TAKE AWAY from Congress the power to "emit bills of credit" during the Constitutional Convention as recorded by Founding Father and future president James Madison http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_816.asp
and
My aside: The power to be struck out was the power to "emit". Mr. Ghorum, (Madison misspelled the name - the person is actually Nathanial Gorham) states that if the words stand (the words being "emit bills of credit") that "they may suggest and lead to the measure" with the measure being printing legal tender paper money. To be ABSOLUTELY clear, this vote denied Congress the power to "emit" per money, and strikes at the core of arguments in favor of paper money, because Congress cannot make paper money a legal tender because the power to print paper money was REMOVED from Congress. If Congress cannot even print paper money, how can it make it legal tender? In Federalist 44 - Madison states
From Craig v Misouri The whole was intended to exclude everything from use as a circulating medium except gold and silver, and to give to the United States the exclusive control over the coining and valuing of the metallic medium. That the real dollar may represent property, and not the shadow of it. From the dissenting opinion to one of the Legal Tender cases http://supreme.justia.com/us/79/457/case.html - starts with THE CHIEF JUSTICE, dissenting Acts of Congress not made in pursuance of the Constitution are not laws. We perceive no connection between the express power to coin money and the inference that the government may, in any contingency, make its securities perform the functions of coined money, as a legal tender in payment of debts It is unnecessary to say that we reject wholly the doctrine, advanced for the first time, we believe, in this Court by the present majority that the legislature has any "powers under the Constitution which grow out of the aggregate of powers conferred upon the government or out of the sovereignty instituted by it." If this proposition be admitted, and it be also admitted that the legislature is the sole judge of the necessity for the exercise of such powers, the government becomes practically absolute and unlimited. It is true that notes issued by banks, both in England and America, were then in circulation and were used in exchanges, and in common speech called money, and that bills of credit, issued both by Congress and by the states, had been recently in circulation under the same general name; but these notes and bills were never regarded as real money, but were always treated as its representatives only, and were described as currency. The legal tender notes themselves do not purport to be anything else than promises to pay money. They have been held to be securities, and therefore exempt from state taxation, [Footnote 3/13] and the idea that it was ever designed to make such notes a standard of value by the framers of the Constitution is wholly new. The sense of the Convention which framed the Constitution is clear from the account given by Mr. Madison of what took place when the power to emit bills of credit was stricken from the reported draft. He says distinctly that he acquiesced in the motion to strike out because the government would not be disabled thereby from the use of public notes, so far as they would be safe and proper, while it cut off the pretext for a paper currency, and particularly for making the bills a tender either for public or private debts. [Footnote 3/14] The whole discussion upon bills of credit proves beyond all possible question that the Convention regarded the power to make notes a legal tender as absolutely excluded from the Constitution. [Footnote 3/15]' but he added, "NOTHING BUT GOLD AND SILVER COIN CAN BE MADE A TENDER IN PAYMENT OF DEBTS." [Footnote 4/68] Utterances of the kind are found throughout the reported decisions of this Court, but there is not a sentence or word to be found within those volumes, from the organization of the court to the passage of the acts of Congress in question, to support the opposite theory. Excellent source states - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.142.108 ( talk) 13:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC) |
Despite prior consensus being documented in this article's FAQ, an editor ( 67.249.74.255 ( talk)) has been edit warring ( [10], [11], [12], [13] ) to state:
However, in Lewis v. United States (1982), [5] it was ruled that the Federal Reserve is privately owned. In particular, neither the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks are owned by the US Federal Government.
I have left notices regarding the policy for WP:3RR on the editor's talk page, and encouraged said editor to gain WP:CONSENSUS here before adding the text again, per WP:BRD. -- 4wajzkd02 ( talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed my addition to a direct quote from the court case. There's no more disputing my first entries because I have changed them and should be a seperate issue and not count toward my initial warnings.
(
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
00:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
In Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982). the court stated "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purpose of the FTCA, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.”
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Lewis_v_US.htm http://www.nesara.org/court_summaries/lewis_v_united_states.htm
I inserted a quote from a court case. This is NON DISPUTABLE. How can ypu dispute a quote from the court? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 00:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. You cannot dispute a quote. A quote is a quote. Period. 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh good, so then you admit they are private. Werdtoyadonkay ( talk) 01:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
If it's not private then why can't the government audit it? Seems pretty private to me. Common sense. 67.249.74.255 ( talk) 15:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
My previous entry _was_ discussing a pretty specific issue. One look at the criticism section and it is obvious that the entire section is rather lacking. I just found three more unfounded statements that have absolutely no reference, no documentation, and no sources. In fact it might be said that the entire section isn't properly sourced. Hence my feeling that the entry was pretty ridiculous as it stands. Am I allowed to voice that opinion this time or should I expect summarily deletion again for daring to criticise the article? Re your explanation for deletion: "WP:SOAPBOX - please discuss specific changes," etc. Nunamiut ( talk) 03:12, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I could now summarily delete Ravensfires comment as it has nothing to do with this article. Nunamiut ( talk) 02:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has been bastardized by adding the following. Please correct and lock the article for further editing:
Destroying the nation's economy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum unemployment, high unstable prices, and short-term bubbles which burst if you blow on the them too hard. Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the unsoundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect failing companies that should go bankrupt. Maintaining a failing financial system and taking away the risks that arise in financial markets that self-regulate greed and Malinvestment. Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including maintenance costs of Ben Bernanke's Helicopter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goganess ( talk • contribs) 08:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I was going to add the {{Very Long}} tag to this article, but noticed the smaller tag already there suggesting that this article may be a good candidate for breaking up into multiple smaller articles. I personally would vote "yea" to doing this; as it stands, the article is simply too long with too much content in one space; one cannot easily get a "rundown" of what the fed is about without surfing through tons of detail you might notbe looking for or interested in. Spiral5800 ( talk) 20:41, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not state that the Federal Reserve Association is a private company that was incorporated in 1914 in the state of Delaware? https://delecorp.delaware.gov/tin/GINameSearch.jsp
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammy8912 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, December 18, 2009
No, as Wikipedia editors, we do not have to prove that "Federal Reserve Association" is not associated with "Federal Reserve System," any more than we have to prove that any other two organizations with similar names are not associated with each other. That's not how Wikipedia works.
If you as a Wikipedia editor have something from a reliable previously published third party source to the effect that there is some sort of association betweeen the two, then let's hear about it. Famspear ( talk) 02:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This reads " ... think that Federal Reserve System helped to cause the Great Depression." This is misleading because it seems to imply the following: All these people thought that the Fed caused the depression through positive action; if there were no Fed then there wouldn't have been any depression. They all didn't think that of course; Bernanke for instance thought that it was LACK of action on the part of the fed that was responsible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.201.44.122 ( talk) 06:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The figures stated in the balance sheet and networth section of the article are not audited figures. It should be stated in the article that the figures were internally prepared by the Federal Reserve, and that the figures were not audited by an independent accountability organization such as the GAO, so there is a possibility that they could be inaccurate http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21427.html Sammy8912 ( talk) 02:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
No, Wikipedia is not in the business of evaluating the reliability of audited -- or unaudited -- figures in financial statements that are mentioned in Wikipedia articles. However, if you have a previously published third party source that says the Federal Reserve System financial statements are (because of the lack of an audit) "possibly inaccurate," then that can be discussed here.
Sammy, as Wikipedia editors, we are not here to evaluate the Federal Reserve System ourselves. We are here to write a Wikipedia article based on what OTHER people (previously published, reliable third party sources) have written about the subject (in this case, the Federal Reserve System). Famspear ( talk) 02:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This article has been bastardized by adding the below edits. Please fix and lock the article from further editing.
Destroying the nation's economy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum unemployment, high unstable prices, and short-term bubbles which burst if you blow on the them too hard. Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the unsoundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect failing companies that should go bankrupt. Maintaining a failing financial system and taking away the risks that arise in financial markets that self-regulate greed and Malinvestment. Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including maintenance costs of Ben Bernanke's Helicopter.
Goganess 1-22-2010
Goganess (
talk)
08:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I had edited one portion of your first sentence to accurately reflect the truth about how and why the Federal Reserve Bank was imposed upon the American people. The misleading part is in bold below.
"The Federal Reserve System (also known as the Federal Reserve, and informally as the Fed) is the central banking system of the United States. It was created in 1913, with the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act, and was largely a response to prior financial panics and bank runs, the most severe of which being the Panic of 1907.[1][2][3]"
This is completely inaccurate. The banking interests that pushed for the central bank did so strictly out of a desire to be able to control their ability to expand fractal banking. They simply pointed to recent financial crises as a duplicitous justification, and this is how the myth was born that the Federal Reserve Bank was implemented to "help" control an otherwise volatile economy. In fact, all previous crises and bank runs were born from fractal banking to begin with. The very institution that was and is supposed to be helping us is causing the problems. Please refer to http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf for verification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litwinp ( talk • contribs) on 27 January 2010.