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The fascism article (post WWII) ignores the rise of fascism in Latin America after WWII. The strongest example of such a leader is Pinochet, but he isn't mentioned at all. Admittedly these fascist regimes failed to build the same kind of totalitarian societies seen in Germany and Italy but they were still fascist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.141 ( talk) 10:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
I hope the following is a good explanation of the change I'm going to make in the article.
It only opposes communism(marxism), the radical form of socialism. Socialism exists in various forms. Any system that implements redistribution is socialist as well. Redistribution is a violation of private property. Percentage of redistribution can be described as a percentage of socialism in the economic aspect. Welfare state is a part of fascism. Social solidarity is a key part of fascism. It's funny that the preface of this article says fascism is "Hostile to socialism" but national socialism(Nazism) is obviously a part of fascism.
Any ideology that wants to turn a group of people(class or nation) into one organism, one mass(but excluding and eliminating people who "are worse" and "don't belong" - Enemies of the revolution during Jacobins, Jews during Nazism, everyone too rich during communism) and kill individualism is going to implement socialism because it's the economic and social manifestation of such an ideology. The more you want to kill the natural inequalities that exist between men the more tyranny you need to accomplish that. In other words the more extreme socialism the more extreme tyranny. That's why National Socialism (Nazism) and Communism are the most evil systems mankind experienced and Communism was worse for it's own society. Italian Fascist didn't want to create absolute control and tyranny = they didn't create absolute equality = they didn't want absolute socialism = they officially opposed communism. Communists wanted absolute equality = they created absolute socialism = absolute tyranny and control. You can start both ways: Absolute tyranny leads to absolute equality = absolute socialism; Absolute socialism leads to absolute tyranny(because it needs it as explained before).
I think it's extremely important for all people around the world too understand this natural connection between socialism and tyranny. People aren't equal! Don't confuse equal justice under law with equality. Didn't Fyodor Dostoyevsky say that equality can only be achieved in slavery?
Note that socialism doesn't have to exclude and eliminate anyone. It doesn't have to physically eliminate anyone, it may use other forms of coercion what may seem to be much less evil but in fact it achieves the same results. A tyranny isn't better if it's less violent but takes away just as much Freedom. ~MR 01:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The idea that "fascism" is a form of "Socialism" is a misreading of the relationship between the two, and a bad assumption based on the fact that "National Socialism" has the word "socialism" in it. Fascism is in fact "corporatism", or "third positionism", which was an attempt to solve the problems which motivated people to become Communists, except within the basic structure of capitalism. Socialism is defined as the attempt to move beyond class division, and fascism was clearly wedded to the idea of class divide, so they are by definition opposite. Saying Fascism is a form of Socialism is like saying Communism is a form of Capitalism because China has a Capitalist economy and a party with "communist" in the name.
The ideological assumptions of MR are obvious and outside of the scope of any article. Calling systems "evil" is kind of ridiculous for any encyclopedia. You obviously don't like communism but that's no reason to take your biases and implant them into wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.141 ( talk) 09:36, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
a belief attributed to several such as, Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, Georges Valois, Pierre Andreu [3], and Thierry Maulnier. A brief summation of this can be found here: Neither Right Nor Left: Fascist Ideology in France, Zeev Sternhell ISBN0691006296, page 59 as well as in works by and about the above writers. I suggest we add this material to the lead and cite passages from each of the above in a new section. Darkstar1st ( talk) 12:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
"A. James Gregor is indisputably the foremost authority on totalitarian philosophy and practice in the English-speaking world (at least). This magisterial book will add to that reputation: there are few scholars, if any, who could produce a work of such panoramic sweep. Further, Gregor makes the most imaginative linkages between ideas and phenomena that previously might have seemed unrelated. His provocative insights will attract much attention."—Anthony James Joes, Saint Joseph's University
"In this impressive work of scholarship A. James Gregor shows that the totalitarian twins, communism and fascism (my emphasis), are not at all what they claim to be—secular and atheistic ideologies—but thinly disguised 'political religions' arising from their common source in the militant intellectual milieu that Marxism engendered."—Carl Linden, Emeritus, The George Washington University
AFAICT from all the sources presented here, "Fascism" was intended to be a pragmatic form of absolute rule founded on irredentism and militarism, tied together by "national unity" - which meant that any economic, religious, or other tenets were pretty much side issues. A fascist regime could be Shinto, Catholic, or Atheist, or anything else. It could be pro-Asian, or pro-German,, or pro-Argentine "national identity". It could favour abortions, or outlaw them. It could allow sexual variants, or outlaw them. It could build churches, or tear them down. Any group which opposed the core tenets, was the "enemy" and this had nothing to do with anything other than the militarist, irredentist, national unity absolutism which tied pretty much all of them together. Which is not is discord with R-41's notes. Collect ( talk) 17:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Now then how about this as an idea of a swift formula response to these issues that can be easily copied-and-pasted:
That's what I propose, one can simply copy and past these 3 points as a formula response in a user sandbox to have it available as a response. Then just paste in the 3 points, if the response by the user to these points is irrational, don't bother further responding and just mark it as soapbox and move on.-- R-41 ( talk) 20:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
User bulk removed the section, I restored, he removed again. While the section (as all sections on every article) could be tweaked or improved, I do not see that this section was unsourced or problematic to the level that it should be completely removed. Thoughts? I note that the editor's contribution history deals extensively with the baath party, so their edits may be due more to their personal political affiliations or leanings or interests and less with wiki policy. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The user named Web420 added material on the page that claims that English translators mistranslated the original Italian language La dottrina del fascismo, and that it should say "century of the left" based on several English language translations of the book. I looked up the Italian language statements, here are the results:
Ammesso che il sec. XIX sia stato il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia, non è detto che anche il sec. XX debba essere il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia. Le dottrine politiche passano, i popoli restano. Si può pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorità, un secolo di «destra», un secolo fascista; se il XIX fu il secolo dell'individuo (liberalismo significa individualismo), si può pensare che questo sia il secolo «collettivo» e quindi il secolo dello Stato.
I agree with N-HH, except that here is no OR here, but only the capacity who someone has to read a document in the original language instead than in English. Here we are talking about a translation of an article, not about an its interpretation. And we are interested in the though of Mussolini, not of Jane Comesichiamalei :-) (in that case the wrong translation would have been for sure important). I want to remember (another OR for sure :-)), that when he entered in the Camera for the first time, he sat at the upper right corner, and asked by Grandi (who wanted to sit at the extreme left) about the reason answered "Da qui posso guardare in faccia i miei nemici". Alex2006 ( talk) 15:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Editors are permitted to use foreign language sources and translate them. If some editors doubt whether destra means right, we can ask at the translation desk. Also, we could ask if someone has an original copy of Soames' translation to see if she translated "destra" as left. Incidentally, presenting theories based on mistranslations or transcription errors is original research. TFD ( talk) 16:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The section Fascism#Fascism as a form of tyranny is entirely about the theory that fascism could be a form of democracy, which is based primarily on a statement by the fascist theorist Gentile who, after explaining what was wrong with democracy said fascists are the real democrats. This theory is rarely mentioned and most writers dismiss it. The statement attributed to Laqueur was actually taken from an article by another author in a book edited by Laqueur. Because WP:WEIGHT does not support inclusion, I will remove it. A link to the section can be found here. TFD ( talk) 03:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Riley is a fairly recent writer and therefore is not yet a notable writer on Fascism. As Stanley G. Payne, one of the world's foremost experts on fascism, for example, wrote, "The most controversial aspect [of Riley's book] will be its definition of Fascism, which he calls an 'authoritarian democracy', using the latter term in a distinctive manner that is not as clearly defined as it might be....The thrust of his argument is that democracy is a broader concept and practice than the classic liberal democracy of the West....It is doubtful that this definition will gain much acceptance." [12] Payne praises the book for other aspects. Juan Linz is a notable writer on totalitarianism, although his brief mention of "authoritarian democracy" has not been picked up by other writers. Even Riley seemed to be unaware of it. Gentile was Mussolini's ghostwriter, and the whole issue is how to interpret the single mention he made of "authoritarian democracy" in his extensive writings.
Here is a link to Anthony Arblaster's discussion of the section in his book Democracy.
Notice that Fascism#Definitions does not even mention any of these definitions. (The Gentile mentioned in this section btw is a different writer.)
TFD ( talk) 19:17, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
The main view is that fascism was anti-democratic but the section is mostly about how it was a form of democracy. Again, this whole article overemphasizes minor aspects of the topic and minimizes or ignores major ones. In this case we have a whole section about one sentence that has been largely ignored in writings on fascism. This is a backwards way of building an article - find some obscure opinion we happen to like and find sources for it. TFD ( talk) 19:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Everyone,
I am new to the group. I visited this entry two years ago and was struck by the fact that it made Fascism seem indistinguishable from Socialism or Communism. It used terms like proletarian, classless society, etc that rightly go with Communism or Leninism.
In returning to it recently, I find some of the same problems.
There is an implicit bias that seems to want readers to see Fascism as a species of Socialism. Terms like "vanguard party" and "revolution" that are almost always used with Communism and Leninism are used, for example. There is also a strong emphasis on the State and statism here that is absent in other online encyclopedia entries on Fascism. That also is suggestive of bias. As is the opening characterization of Fascist ideology as derived from Socialism.
From a conservative libertarian capitalist perspective, Fascism and Socialism and Communism are of course alike if not identical. They use the State to control society. But from a scholarly historical perspective, there are significant differences, and the duty of an encyclopedia entry is to make those clear, not to confuse them.
The entry as it stands also is ahistorical. It should describe up front how Fascism was an historical event that arose in response to communism, economic egalitarianism, liberal democracy, cultural liberalism, "decadence," etc and that tried to create an authoritarian social order founded on hierarchy, inequality, and law and order.
I gather someone wants Fascism to fit under "nationalisms", but Fascism was not only nationalism. Look at the first two notes in the entry. They describe fascists as espousing nationalist ideas. But that does not make F "nationalism." It was a political movement and a form of social organization that was nationalist, authoritarain, xenophobic, etc. Its identity was not limited to "nationalism."
I suggest you all check the available online encyclopedias such as Cambridge, Blackwell, etc. I paste a couple of those below.
I post below a proposed revision of the opening section that makes it more in keeping with the other online encyclopedias and that makes it more historical. It also removes the tendentiousness--the implied libertarian conservative bias that sought to equate Fascism and Socialism or Communism.
I apologize for the fact that for the moment, certain references were removed in that proposed revision. They would go back in to a finalized revision.
I look forward to hearing what you think.
Thanks. (Encyclopedia entries follow after my signature and the proposed revision of section one follow them.)
Mryan1451 ( talk) 14:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Cambridge:
Sometimes used as a word of abuse to refer to movements or individuals who are intolerant or authoritarian, fascism is certainly intolerant and authoritarian, but it is more than this. It is a movement that seeks to establish a dictatorship of the “right” (that is an ultra-conservative position that rejects liberalism and anything associated with the “left”). It targets communists, socialists, trade unionists, and liberals through banning their parties and their members, so that these groups cannot exercise their political, legal, or social rights. It is anti-liberal, regarding liberal values as a form of “decadence” and seeing them as opening the floodgates to socialist, communist, and egalitarian movements.
Blackwell:
Fascism is a totalitarian doctrine and a form of political system that was prevalent between the two world wars. The word was coined from the 'fasces', a bundle of rods that the magistrates of the Roman Empire used to chastise people. The Fascist movements saw themselves as punitive, purifying agents of a new national spirit that must redeem their nations from the decadence and defeatism into which they had sunk. Concerned to rejuvenate their nations, their doctrine presented an analysis of the reasons for national disaster and the principles by which national greatness was to be restored. They anticipated much conflict in this enterprise. Fascism was essentially a militant form of nationalism. War was glorious.
The predicament in which the nation found itself was the result of its attachment to liberalism, egalitarianism and democracy. These notions represented a rejection of the nation's true, old values for a false conversion to values which were internationalist. Democracy was a slow and unsatisfactory way of making decisions and it allowed much arguing with rulers. Moreover, its populist possibilities were encouraging socialists and Bolsheviks to take power. Hence it is not surprising that the major locations for the emergence of Fascism were Italy and Germany. Both countries had achieved nationhood in 1870; both had since then experienced a rather unsatisfactory form of parliamentary democracy; both felt shattered by their experiences in World War I (though Italy was on the side of the victors); and both felt threatened by the results of the Russian Revolution in 1917 with workers' and soldiers' councils, strikes and general disorder common in central Europe.
Fascist rule would reverse these tends. For disorder it would substitute Fascist discipline; for democratic delay it would substitute swift decisive action, Will rather than Reason would prevail; instead of division there would be national solidarity; in place of egalitarian values there would be a return to hierarchy and leadership. Fascism promised to resurrect the old values which had been discarded during the flirtation with democracy. But the instrument for this rejuvenation was not the old discredited aristocratic elite, but a new meritocratic elite with modern technological expertise. Consequently, Fascism could appeal to either conservatives or radicals, they could be united under its nationalistic appeal. This spirit would also permeate industrial relations. There could be no conflict and the Fascist state would supervene over worker and employer — the so-called Corporate State.
Bloomsbury:
Fascism is a term used to describe historically specific interwar (1919-45) European political movements and doctrines. Its derivation is from fasces, the ceremonial bundles of rods containing an axe with its head protuding, symbolizing the authority of the ancient Roman republic (which many Fascist governments wished to emulate). Fascist is also used more loosely to describe any form of right-wing authoritarian régime which is not explicitly socialist. In its most loose usage fascism is employed to denigrate people espousing either right-wing or left-wing views with which the speaker or writer disagrees.
Interwar European fascism is easiest to define by what its exponents opposed. They were anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, anti-liberal and anti-conservative: although they were prepared to make temporary alliances with their enemies, normally with conservatives. They rejected cultural and economic conservatism, including its Christian foundations, but also the internationalism, pacifism and materialism of liberals and the left. They invariably embraced an extremely chauvinistic form of nationalism, usually in a form which emphasized the racial or ethnic foundations of national identity, and committed them to the imperial aggrandisement of their nations and to militaristic doctrines and practices. They were generally in favour of totalitarianism: the total control of the polity, economy and society by a fascist party which would create a new national and secular culture, and indeed a new (or revived) people. Fascists were élitists, emphasizing the role of charismatic and authoritarian leaders: although they claimed that fascism represented the interests of all the nation and they mobilized mass political parties.
Proposed revision:
Fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ was a radical rightwing political movement and form of social organization characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, and the use of state violence to attain political ends. It arose in the early 20th century in western Europe in response to the rise of social liberalism, communist revolution, and the perceived cultural decadence of European society. It sought to restore a social order founded on hierarchy, submission to the state, property inequality, and traditional rightwing values such as the church, the family, and law and order.
Fascism refers specifically to an Italian political movement (1927-1945), but the term is also used to characterize other rightwing political movements in Germany, Spain, and elsewhere during this period. Fascism is usually distinguished from other authoritarian political forms by the mass mobilization of the national community in accordance with the fascist principles of hierarchy, corporatism, and law and order. [1] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation [2] [3] [4] [5] and asserts that stronger nations have the right to obtain land and resources by displacing weaker nations. [6]
Fascism sought to provide a solution to the divisions between classes within the nation by displacing attention to the conflict between nations and races. [7] It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. [8] Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism. [9] Fascist movements emphasize a belligerent, virulent form of nationalism ( chauvinism) and a distrust of foreigners ( xenophobia), the latter closely linked to the ethnocentrism of many fascist movements. The typical fascist state also embraced militarism, a belief in the rigors and virtues of military life as an individual and national ideal, meaning much of public life was organized along military lines and an emphasis put on uniforms, parades, and monumental architecture.
Influenced by national syndicalism, the first fascist movements emerged in Italy around World War I, combining elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions, in opposition to communism, socialism, liberal democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate. [10] [11] Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.
I disagree with Capitalismomo that there is a consensus. I certainly don't agree that F is not rightwing in its essence. It arose in reaction to and in contention with leftwing socialism and communism. It was a reactionary rightwing movement that was counter-revoutionary, not revolutionary in character. That is why when you do a simple search for "fascism definition" on google, you get the Oxford English Dictionary defining F as a "rightwing political movement" and google itself defining it using similar words. W editors can't invent realities as you seem to be doing here. You can't simply say "we have decided all existing scholarship is wrong and all encyclopedias are wrong and in our opinion F was not rightwing." Sorry, that just doesn't fly. When I first looked at this entry a few years ago, I sensed it was being used for propagandistic ends--suggesting communism and fascism were the same thing. That tendentiousness is still evident in the first section of the entry in the overemphasis on "statism", the effort to diminish the political content of F as an ultra-conservative movement, the attempt to confuse it with leftwing socialism, and the inappropriate use of terms like "vanguard party." The argument that W's entries do not have to conform with standards set by other encyclopedias is specious. If anything, W has a responsibility to make sure entries are as much as possible similar to other encyclopedias. This entry is not. I will request dispute resolution on the issue of the definition of F as "rightwing." I'm about to start teaching, so I'll put off addressing the rest of section one for now. Thanks. Mryan1451 ( talk) 08:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Thank you for that input. I agree that we need to characterize F as rightwing up front not out back. F was statist, but an opening paragraph should summarize all the major elements of a movement. Currently, the focus is almost entirely on statism (mentioned twice while other elements such as social conservatism are not mentioned at all). To me that suggests a libertarian conservative bias--see only the statist part and ignore the extreme social conservatism of F. I sense that someone is trying to push F away from being associated with the political Right. That also seems to be the case with the suggestion that F derives from socialism. Again, further on, you could talk about how Mussolini began as a socialist, but in a summary of the main points of a movement--what a first section should do--you need to focus on essentials, the main traits of the movement such as authoritarianism, state violence against adversaries on the Left, racism, nationalism, corporatism, etc. These used to be in older versions of this entry but have been removed. The attempt to foreground socialism seems once again an attempt to make F seem leftist rather than rightist. Historically, F was a ferocious rightwing response to socialism, not a party to it or with it. We need to stop blurring the difference for ideological reasons. Finally, nationalism. Only one of the many online encyclopedias characterize F as "nationalism." All others describe it more broadly (as does the OED) as a "political movement and form of social organization" that was among other things "nationalist." We need more accuracy and we need to be more in keeping with existing encyclopedia standards. Otherwise we will appear cranky and unusable by teachers. Right now, I would never assign this entry to students. Indeed, I encountered it first when I thought of assigning it and noticed it had serious problems. The first section needs revising, and thanks for your feedback. I will take another stab at it when I have time and post it here on the Talk page. I will also post all of the other online encyclopedia entries for you to consider. In the man time, though, I have asked for a Third Opinion regarding the use of "rightwing." That is not dispute resolution, but it might help to have an outsider's perspective. Thanks again for your feedback. Mryan1451 ( talk) 12:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
( edit conflict)I have already stated (recited policy) that the lead is to be a summary of the article. So any such changes should be proposed via changes to the main body of the article supported by secondary sources. Is that too convoluted?-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
In reviewing the history of the entry, I can see that it has changed and transformed quite a bit. It has been imbalanced in various ways. The current opening section is still imbalanced. For example, very few people say the essence of F was "nationalism." (Only one other encyclopedia of the two dozen out there does this.) The opening section should be historically accurate and conceptually complete. It should not overstress one thing (statism) and leave out other significant elements of F such as social conservatism, violence against the Left, suppression of trade unionism, antipathy to cultural modernism, etc. Yes, F was statist but you don't mention that twice in an opening section that supposedly defines the movement and leave out three quarters of what F essentially was. It's shocking that "corporatism," which historians see as essential to F is now left out (after having been central to its definition a few years ago here). We need to get the balance right--bring back in stuff that was ejected and blend it with the stuff you all feel is essential as well. I have to see my son off to college next week and then return to teaching myself at my university. I'll try to find time to stitch together some of your discussion with my own sense of what that opening section should accomplish and get back to you. Mryan1451 ( talk) 01:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Hi, Everyone. If you wish to communicate with me about the Fascism: Talk issue I raised, please do so on this page rather than write to me on my Talk page. I will not read or respond to notes from you about this issue on that page. Thank you for understanding. All of our discussion should be public here. Mryan1451 ( talk) 17:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Hi, Everyone. I just posted two new discussion sections. See below. One is about other encyclopedias. The second is a new version that takes our discussion of the past few days into account.
Mryan1451 ( talk) 13:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
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help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 |
The fascism article (post WWII) ignores the rise of fascism in Latin America after WWII. The strongest example of such a leader is Pinochet, but he isn't mentioned at all. Admittedly these fascist regimes failed to build the same kind of totalitarian societies seen in Germany and Italy but they were still fascist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.141 ( talk) 10:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
I hope the following is a good explanation of the change I'm going to make in the article.
It only opposes communism(marxism), the radical form of socialism. Socialism exists in various forms. Any system that implements redistribution is socialist as well. Redistribution is a violation of private property. Percentage of redistribution can be described as a percentage of socialism in the economic aspect. Welfare state is a part of fascism. Social solidarity is a key part of fascism. It's funny that the preface of this article says fascism is "Hostile to socialism" but national socialism(Nazism) is obviously a part of fascism.
Any ideology that wants to turn a group of people(class or nation) into one organism, one mass(but excluding and eliminating people who "are worse" and "don't belong" - Enemies of the revolution during Jacobins, Jews during Nazism, everyone too rich during communism) and kill individualism is going to implement socialism because it's the economic and social manifestation of such an ideology. The more you want to kill the natural inequalities that exist between men the more tyranny you need to accomplish that. In other words the more extreme socialism the more extreme tyranny. That's why National Socialism (Nazism) and Communism are the most evil systems mankind experienced and Communism was worse for it's own society. Italian Fascist didn't want to create absolute control and tyranny = they didn't create absolute equality = they didn't want absolute socialism = they officially opposed communism. Communists wanted absolute equality = they created absolute socialism = absolute tyranny and control. You can start both ways: Absolute tyranny leads to absolute equality = absolute socialism; Absolute socialism leads to absolute tyranny(because it needs it as explained before).
I think it's extremely important for all people around the world too understand this natural connection between socialism and tyranny. People aren't equal! Don't confuse equal justice under law with equality. Didn't Fyodor Dostoyevsky say that equality can only be achieved in slavery?
Note that socialism doesn't have to exclude and eliminate anyone. It doesn't have to physically eliminate anyone, it may use other forms of coercion what may seem to be much less evil but in fact it achieves the same results. A tyranny isn't better if it's less violent but takes away just as much Freedom. ~MR 01:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The idea that "fascism" is a form of "Socialism" is a misreading of the relationship between the two, and a bad assumption based on the fact that "National Socialism" has the word "socialism" in it. Fascism is in fact "corporatism", or "third positionism", which was an attempt to solve the problems which motivated people to become Communists, except within the basic structure of capitalism. Socialism is defined as the attempt to move beyond class division, and fascism was clearly wedded to the idea of class divide, so they are by definition opposite. Saying Fascism is a form of Socialism is like saying Communism is a form of Capitalism because China has a Capitalist economy and a party with "communist" in the name.
The ideological assumptions of MR are obvious and outside of the scope of any article. Calling systems "evil" is kind of ridiculous for any encyclopedia. You obviously don't like communism but that's no reason to take your biases and implant them into wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.141 ( talk) 09:36, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
a belief attributed to several such as, Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, Georges Valois, Pierre Andreu [3], and Thierry Maulnier. A brief summation of this can be found here: Neither Right Nor Left: Fascist Ideology in France, Zeev Sternhell ISBN0691006296, page 59 as well as in works by and about the above writers. I suggest we add this material to the lead and cite passages from each of the above in a new section. Darkstar1st ( talk) 12:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
"A. James Gregor is indisputably the foremost authority on totalitarian philosophy and practice in the English-speaking world (at least). This magisterial book will add to that reputation: there are few scholars, if any, who could produce a work of such panoramic sweep. Further, Gregor makes the most imaginative linkages between ideas and phenomena that previously might have seemed unrelated. His provocative insights will attract much attention."—Anthony James Joes, Saint Joseph's University
"In this impressive work of scholarship A. James Gregor shows that the totalitarian twins, communism and fascism (my emphasis), are not at all what they claim to be—secular and atheistic ideologies—but thinly disguised 'political religions' arising from their common source in the militant intellectual milieu that Marxism engendered."—Carl Linden, Emeritus, The George Washington University
AFAICT from all the sources presented here, "Fascism" was intended to be a pragmatic form of absolute rule founded on irredentism and militarism, tied together by "national unity" - which meant that any economic, religious, or other tenets were pretty much side issues. A fascist regime could be Shinto, Catholic, or Atheist, or anything else. It could be pro-Asian, or pro-German,, or pro-Argentine "national identity". It could favour abortions, or outlaw them. It could allow sexual variants, or outlaw them. It could build churches, or tear them down. Any group which opposed the core tenets, was the "enemy" and this had nothing to do with anything other than the militarist, irredentist, national unity absolutism which tied pretty much all of them together. Which is not is discord with R-41's notes. Collect ( talk) 17:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Now then how about this as an idea of a swift formula response to these issues that can be easily copied-and-pasted:
That's what I propose, one can simply copy and past these 3 points as a formula response in a user sandbox to have it available as a response. Then just paste in the 3 points, if the response by the user to these points is irrational, don't bother further responding and just mark it as soapbox and move on.-- R-41 ( talk) 20:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
User bulk removed the section, I restored, he removed again. While the section (as all sections on every article) could be tweaked or improved, I do not see that this section was unsourced or problematic to the level that it should be completely removed. Thoughts? I note that the editor's contribution history deals extensively with the baath party, so their edits may be due more to their personal political affiliations or leanings or interests and less with wiki policy. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The user named Web420 added material on the page that claims that English translators mistranslated the original Italian language La dottrina del fascismo, and that it should say "century of the left" based on several English language translations of the book. I looked up the Italian language statements, here are the results:
Ammesso che il sec. XIX sia stato il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia, non è detto che anche il sec. XX debba essere il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia. Le dottrine politiche passano, i popoli restano. Si può pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorità, un secolo di «destra», un secolo fascista; se il XIX fu il secolo dell'individuo (liberalismo significa individualismo), si può pensare che questo sia il secolo «collettivo» e quindi il secolo dello Stato.
I agree with N-HH, except that here is no OR here, but only the capacity who someone has to read a document in the original language instead than in English. Here we are talking about a translation of an article, not about an its interpretation. And we are interested in the though of Mussolini, not of Jane Comesichiamalei :-) (in that case the wrong translation would have been for sure important). I want to remember (another OR for sure :-)), that when he entered in the Camera for the first time, he sat at the upper right corner, and asked by Grandi (who wanted to sit at the extreme left) about the reason answered "Da qui posso guardare in faccia i miei nemici". Alex2006 ( talk) 15:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Editors are permitted to use foreign language sources and translate them. If some editors doubt whether destra means right, we can ask at the translation desk. Also, we could ask if someone has an original copy of Soames' translation to see if she translated "destra" as left. Incidentally, presenting theories based on mistranslations or transcription errors is original research. TFD ( talk) 16:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The section Fascism#Fascism as a form of tyranny is entirely about the theory that fascism could be a form of democracy, which is based primarily on a statement by the fascist theorist Gentile who, after explaining what was wrong with democracy said fascists are the real democrats. This theory is rarely mentioned and most writers dismiss it. The statement attributed to Laqueur was actually taken from an article by another author in a book edited by Laqueur. Because WP:WEIGHT does not support inclusion, I will remove it. A link to the section can be found here. TFD ( talk) 03:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Riley is a fairly recent writer and therefore is not yet a notable writer on Fascism. As Stanley G. Payne, one of the world's foremost experts on fascism, for example, wrote, "The most controversial aspect [of Riley's book] will be its definition of Fascism, which he calls an 'authoritarian democracy', using the latter term in a distinctive manner that is not as clearly defined as it might be....The thrust of his argument is that democracy is a broader concept and practice than the classic liberal democracy of the West....It is doubtful that this definition will gain much acceptance." [12] Payne praises the book for other aspects. Juan Linz is a notable writer on totalitarianism, although his brief mention of "authoritarian democracy" has not been picked up by other writers. Even Riley seemed to be unaware of it. Gentile was Mussolini's ghostwriter, and the whole issue is how to interpret the single mention he made of "authoritarian democracy" in his extensive writings.
Here is a link to Anthony Arblaster's discussion of the section in his book Democracy.
Notice that Fascism#Definitions does not even mention any of these definitions. (The Gentile mentioned in this section btw is a different writer.)
TFD ( talk) 19:17, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
The main view is that fascism was anti-democratic but the section is mostly about how it was a form of democracy. Again, this whole article overemphasizes minor aspects of the topic and minimizes or ignores major ones. In this case we have a whole section about one sentence that has been largely ignored in writings on fascism. This is a backwards way of building an article - find some obscure opinion we happen to like and find sources for it. TFD ( talk) 19:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Everyone,
I am new to the group. I visited this entry two years ago and was struck by the fact that it made Fascism seem indistinguishable from Socialism or Communism. It used terms like proletarian, classless society, etc that rightly go with Communism or Leninism.
In returning to it recently, I find some of the same problems.
There is an implicit bias that seems to want readers to see Fascism as a species of Socialism. Terms like "vanguard party" and "revolution" that are almost always used with Communism and Leninism are used, for example. There is also a strong emphasis on the State and statism here that is absent in other online encyclopedia entries on Fascism. That also is suggestive of bias. As is the opening characterization of Fascist ideology as derived from Socialism.
From a conservative libertarian capitalist perspective, Fascism and Socialism and Communism are of course alike if not identical. They use the State to control society. But from a scholarly historical perspective, there are significant differences, and the duty of an encyclopedia entry is to make those clear, not to confuse them.
The entry as it stands also is ahistorical. It should describe up front how Fascism was an historical event that arose in response to communism, economic egalitarianism, liberal democracy, cultural liberalism, "decadence," etc and that tried to create an authoritarian social order founded on hierarchy, inequality, and law and order.
I gather someone wants Fascism to fit under "nationalisms", but Fascism was not only nationalism. Look at the first two notes in the entry. They describe fascists as espousing nationalist ideas. But that does not make F "nationalism." It was a political movement and a form of social organization that was nationalist, authoritarain, xenophobic, etc. Its identity was not limited to "nationalism."
I suggest you all check the available online encyclopedias such as Cambridge, Blackwell, etc. I paste a couple of those below.
I post below a proposed revision of the opening section that makes it more in keeping with the other online encyclopedias and that makes it more historical. It also removes the tendentiousness--the implied libertarian conservative bias that sought to equate Fascism and Socialism or Communism.
I apologize for the fact that for the moment, certain references were removed in that proposed revision. They would go back in to a finalized revision.
I look forward to hearing what you think.
Thanks. (Encyclopedia entries follow after my signature and the proposed revision of section one follow them.)
Mryan1451 ( talk) 14:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Cambridge:
Sometimes used as a word of abuse to refer to movements or individuals who are intolerant or authoritarian, fascism is certainly intolerant and authoritarian, but it is more than this. It is a movement that seeks to establish a dictatorship of the “right” (that is an ultra-conservative position that rejects liberalism and anything associated with the “left”). It targets communists, socialists, trade unionists, and liberals through banning their parties and their members, so that these groups cannot exercise their political, legal, or social rights. It is anti-liberal, regarding liberal values as a form of “decadence” and seeing them as opening the floodgates to socialist, communist, and egalitarian movements.
Blackwell:
Fascism is a totalitarian doctrine and a form of political system that was prevalent between the two world wars. The word was coined from the 'fasces', a bundle of rods that the magistrates of the Roman Empire used to chastise people. The Fascist movements saw themselves as punitive, purifying agents of a new national spirit that must redeem their nations from the decadence and defeatism into which they had sunk. Concerned to rejuvenate their nations, their doctrine presented an analysis of the reasons for national disaster and the principles by which national greatness was to be restored. They anticipated much conflict in this enterprise. Fascism was essentially a militant form of nationalism. War was glorious.
The predicament in which the nation found itself was the result of its attachment to liberalism, egalitarianism and democracy. These notions represented a rejection of the nation's true, old values for a false conversion to values which were internationalist. Democracy was a slow and unsatisfactory way of making decisions and it allowed much arguing with rulers. Moreover, its populist possibilities were encouraging socialists and Bolsheviks to take power. Hence it is not surprising that the major locations for the emergence of Fascism were Italy and Germany. Both countries had achieved nationhood in 1870; both had since then experienced a rather unsatisfactory form of parliamentary democracy; both felt shattered by their experiences in World War I (though Italy was on the side of the victors); and both felt threatened by the results of the Russian Revolution in 1917 with workers' and soldiers' councils, strikes and general disorder common in central Europe.
Fascist rule would reverse these tends. For disorder it would substitute Fascist discipline; for democratic delay it would substitute swift decisive action, Will rather than Reason would prevail; instead of division there would be national solidarity; in place of egalitarian values there would be a return to hierarchy and leadership. Fascism promised to resurrect the old values which had been discarded during the flirtation with democracy. But the instrument for this rejuvenation was not the old discredited aristocratic elite, but a new meritocratic elite with modern technological expertise. Consequently, Fascism could appeal to either conservatives or radicals, they could be united under its nationalistic appeal. This spirit would also permeate industrial relations. There could be no conflict and the Fascist state would supervene over worker and employer — the so-called Corporate State.
Bloomsbury:
Fascism is a term used to describe historically specific interwar (1919-45) European political movements and doctrines. Its derivation is from fasces, the ceremonial bundles of rods containing an axe with its head protuding, symbolizing the authority of the ancient Roman republic (which many Fascist governments wished to emulate). Fascist is also used more loosely to describe any form of right-wing authoritarian régime which is not explicitly socialist. In its most loose usage fascism is employed to denigrate people espousing either right-wing or left-wing views with which the speaker or writer disagrees.
Interwar European fascism is easiest to define by what its exponents opposed. They were anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, anti-liberal and anti-conservative: although they were prepared to make temporary alliances with their enemies, normally with conservatives. They rejected cultural and economic conservatism, including its Christian foundations, but also the internationalism, pacifism and materialism of liberals and the left. They invariably embraced an extremely chauvinistic form of nationalism, usually in a form which emphasized the racial or ethnic foundations of national identity, and committed them to the imperial aggrandisement of their nations and to militaristic doctrines and practices. They were generally in favour of totalitarianism: the total control of the polity, economy and society by a fascist party which would create a new national and secular culture, and indeed a new (or revived) people. Fascists were élitists, emphasizing the role of charismatic and authoritarian leaders: although they claimed that fascism represented the interests of all the nation and they mobilized mass political parties.
Proposed revision:
Fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ was a radical rightwing political movement and form of social organization characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, and the use of state violence to attain political ends. It arose in the early 20th century in western Europe in response to the rise of social liberalism, communist revolution, and the perceived cultural decadence of European society. It sought to restore a social order founded on hierarchy, submission to the state, property inequality, and traditional rightwing values such as the church, the family, and law and order.
Fascism refers specifically to an Italian political movement (1927-1945), but the term is also used to characterize other rightwing political movements in Germany, Spain, and elsewhere during this period. Fascism is usually distinguished from other authoritarian political forms by the mass mobilization of the national community in accordance with the fascist principles of hierarchy, corporatism, and law and order. [1] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation [2] [3] [4] [5] and asserts that stronger nations have the right to obtain land and resources by displacing weaker nations. [6]
Fascism sought to provide a solution to the divisions between classes within the nation by displacing attention to the conflict between nations and races. [7] It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. [8] Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism. [9] Fascist movements emphasize a belligerent, virulent form of nationalism ( chauvinism) and a distrust of foreigners ( xenophobia), the latter closely linked to the ethnocentrism of many fascist movements. The typical fascist state also embraced militarism, a belief in the rigors and virtues of military life as an individual and national ideal, meaning much of public life was organized along military lines and an emphasis put on uniforms, parades, and monumental architecture.
Influenced by national syndicalism, the first fascist movements emerged in Italy around World War I, combining elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions, in opposition to communism, socialism, liberal democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate. [10] [11] Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.
I disagree with Capitalismomo that there is a consensus. I certainly don't agree that F is not rightwing in its essence. It arose in reaction to and in contention with leftwing socialism and communism. It was a reactionary rightwing movement that was counter-revoutionary, not revolutionary in character. That is why when you do a simple search for "fascism definition" on google, you get the Oxford English Dictionary defining F as a "rightwing political movement" and google itself defining it using similar words. W editors can't invent realities as you seem to be doing here. You can't simply say "we have decided all existing scholarship is wrong and all encyclopedias are wrong and in our opinion F was not rightwing." Sorry, that just doesn't fly. When I first looked at this entry a few years ago, I sensed it was being used for propagandistic ends--suggesting communism and fascism were the same thing. That tendentiousness is still evident in the first section of the entry in the overemphasis on "statism", the effort to diminish the political content of F as an ultra-conservative movement, the attempt to confuse it with leftwing socialism, and the inappropriate use of terms like "vanguard party." The argument that W's entries do not have to conform with standards set by other encyclopedias is specious. If anything, W has a responsibility to make sure entries are as much as possible similar to other encyclopedias. This entry is not. I will request dispute resolution on the issue of the definition of F as "rightwing." I'm about to start teaching, so I'll put off addressing the rest of section one for now. Thanks. Mryan1451 ( talk) 08:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Thank you for that input. I agree that we need to characterize F as rightwing up front not out back. F was statist, but an opening paragraph should summarize all the major elements of a movement. Currently, the focus is almost entirely on statism (mentioned twice while other elements such as social conservatism are not mentioned at all). To me that suggests a libertarian conservative bias--see only the statist part and ignore the extreme social conservatism of F. I sense that someone is trying to push F away from being associated with the political Right. That also seems to be the case with the suggestion that F derives from socialism. Again, further on, you could talk about how Mussolini began as a socialist, but in a summary of the main points of a movement--what a first section should do--you need to focus on essentials, the main traits of the movement such as authoritarianism, state violence against adversaries on the Left, racism, nationalism, corporatism, etc. These used to be in older versions of this entry but have been removed. The attempt to foreground socialism seems once again an attempt to make F seem leftist rather than rightist. Historically, F was a ferocious rightwing response to socialism, not a party to it or with it. We need to stop blurring the difference for ideological reasons. Finally, nationalism. Only one of the many online encyclopedias characterize F as "nationalism." All others describe it more broadly (as does the OED) as a "political movement and form of social organization" that was among other things "nationalist." We need more accuracy and we need to be more in keeping with existing encyclopedia standards. Otherwise we will appear cranky and unusable by teachers. Right now, I would never assign this entry to students. Indeed, I encountered it first when I thought of assigning it and noticed it had serious problems. The first section needs revising, and thanks for your feedback. I will take another stab at it when I have time and post it here on the Talk page. I will also post all of the other online encyclopedia entries for you to consider. In the man time, though, I have asked for a Third Opinion regarding the use of "rightwing." That is not dispute resolution, but it might help to have an outsider's perspective. Thanks again for your feedback. Mryan1451 ( talk) 12:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
( edit conflict)I have already stated (recited policy) that the lead is to be a summary of the article. So any such changes should be proposed via changes to the main body of the article supported by secondary sources. Is that too convoluted?-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
In reviewing the history of the entry, I can see that it has changed and transformed quite a bit. It has been imbalanced in various ways. The current opening section is still imbalanced. For example, very few people say the essence of F was "nationalism." (Only one other encyclopedia of the two dozen out there does this.) The opening section should be historically accurate and conceptually complete. It should not overstress one thing (statism) and leave out other significant elements of F such as social conservatism, violence against the Left, suppression of trade unionism, antipathy to cultural modernism, etc. Yes, F was statist but you don't mention that twice in an opening section that supposedly defines the movement and leave out three quarters of what F essentially was. It's shocking that "corporatism," which historians see as essential to F is now left out (after having been central to its definition a few years ago here). We need to get the balance right--bring back in stuff that was ejected and blend it with the stuff you all feel is essential as well. I have to see my son off to college next week and then return to teaching myself at my university. I'll try to find time to stitch together some of your discussion with my own sense of what that opening section should accomplish and get back to you. Mryan1451 ( talk) 01:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Hi, Everyone. If you wish to communicate with me about the Fascism: Talk issue I raised, please do so on this page rather than write to me on my Talk page. I will not read or respond to notes from you about this issue on that page. Thank you for understanding. All of our discussion should be public here. Mryan1451 ( talk) 17:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
Hi, Everyone. I just posted two new discussion sections. See below. One is about other encyclopedias. The second is a new version that takes our discussion of the past few days into account.
Mryan1451 ( talk) 13:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451
eatwell
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help page).Griffin, Roger 1991 pp. 222
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