This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
I have started a new section because the old section is now too long.
The Vision Thing has mentioned Eatwell's definition of fascism which is actually already in the article under the section "Definitions". However we are discussing another section called "Fascism in the political spectrum" which is different. The consensus view, which Eatwell mentions, is that fascists were right-wing. If Vision Thing disagrees, please provide something that supports your opinion. BTW I think that Vision Thing may not understand what the terms "conservative" and "right-wing" mean. Academics were not trying to place fascism on any contemporary American ideological scale. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that "Jewish fascism" appears fourth after Italian, German, and Romanian. "Jewish fascism" to the extent it existed, never held state power, and likely never comprised more than a few thousand people. Why then discuss it right after the European Axis powers while listing Spanish fascism last? Why no discussion of Arab fascism reflected in the movements of Nasser and other Arab dictators?
I suggest the editors review the listing and description of various fascist movement for anti-Semitic bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.125.144.16 ( talk) 22:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we should only stick to what sources say are the main variants of fascism? For example, Payne in A history of fascism as major variants (beside Italian and German) discusses cases from Austria, Hungary, Romania and Spain. -- Vision Thing -- 11:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
There should be some mention of fascist groups that existed in other countries, e.g., the Silvershirts in the US although no reason to give them their own sections. They already have their own articles. Maybe there could be a list. Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was a Palestinian collaborator of the Axis, and is frequently mentioned by hardcore supporters of Israel today. [1] I don' think that he established any specifically fascist organization though. The Four Deuces ( talk) 12:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Please can you discuss changes you would like to make in talk. The material you are inserting is not at all supported by the sources cited, whereas the material you are deleting is properly sourced and other editors appear to agree that it is. As I indicated a couple of days ago, the minor objection you raised can be sorted, I think, through discussion, but they are no reason for deleting properly sourced material in favour of the opposite.
In summary, please discuss changes you would like to make here. Thank you. -- 89.242.184.16 ( talk) 23:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The assertion that "most" scholars put fascism on the extreme right is unsourced and contrary to most of the sources in the section. In fact, most of the authorities cited in the section say that fascist ideology incorporates elements of both right and left and that trying to peg it at one spot on a political spectrum is not very useful. Lacquer supports this synthesis, syncretist or sui generis view: "did not belong to the extreme Left, yet defining it as part of the extreme Right is not very illuminating either" in fact he says calling it right wing is "simplistic". Stanley Payne supports the same approach: “fascists “were unique (sui generis) in their hostility to all the main established currents, left right and center." (parenthetical added) Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition p. 8. He goes on to say that this was complicated by the need to find political allies. He notes that they more often allied with the right but also allied with the left. The “[m]any scholars [who] accept fascism as a search for a third way between capitalism and communism” as the section says (nine sources are cited) also support the idea that it is neither firmly left nor right. Roger Griffin notes, "Not only does the location of fascism within the right pose taxonomic problems, there are good grounds for cutting this particular Gordian knot altogether by placing it in a category of its own (sui generis) ‘beyond left and right’." (parenthetical added) As the article says, Lipset sees fascism as "extremism of the center". As noted in the section, von Mises and Sternhell see fascism as a type of socialism. As you can see, most of the sources in the section plainly DO NOT put fascism on the far right but say that it is problematic to do so. The intro should say just that.
On another but related point, after the 1980s almost all works on fascism include the fascist negations, this article has a fatal flaw if it fails to do so. The article should simply state them, as it had stably in the past for a long period, in the classic form as formulated by Payne: anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism and anti-communism. I am going to edit the article accordingly. Mamalujo ( talk) 18:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Following discussion about the lede sentence, a very broad consensus was reached, despite one contrarian position and therefore I have inserted the proposed sentences. However it is now important that we improve the section. The Four Deuces ( talk) 04:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It is inappropriate to ask for a third opinion here. "Third opinion is a means to request an outside opinion in a dispute between two editors." There is an on-going discussion here involving more than two people. The Four Deuces ( talk) 15:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
{{rfctag|pol}} In the lead, is it appropriate to describe fascism solely as a right-wing ideology, or should its relationship to the political spectrum be more nuanced? The issue is treated in more detail at Fascism#Position in the political spectrum.
Please reserve this section for outside comments. Discussion from previously engaged editors may be found in the preceding sections.
- 2/0 ( cont.) 17:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The new version is pretty good, but describing fascism as a combination of authoritarian conservatism and right-wing nationalism does not dissent from describing fascism as far right. Also, there was no need for the excess of quotation marks. Spylab ( talk) 21:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect: Overall, this discussion has gone on a long time. Many users have commented, but you have only found support from one other. I'll admit to not being a disinterested party. However, I would suggest that, whilst you should continue to invite discussion about the matter if you wish to, it is no longer reasonable for you to just delete content which is agreed by other users. -- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 23:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that's more than doubtful, but it might be worth dicsussing if you can find an RS that makes that claim.-- 78.144.92.135 ( talk) 13:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Vision Thing: I would agree to including something about fascism and conservatism, including views that dissociate the two (although it should also be noted that there are views which do the opposite). However, it isn't clear to me where this should go - I'm not sure if the "political spectrum" section is the appropriate place, although maybe it is. The wording you cite is already heavily quoted in the preceding section.
What should be noted is that the quote from Griffin isn't a challenge to what Eatwell says. I'm going to restore the section lead. If you have concerns about the specific wording, then that is not grounds for deleting the whole paragraph.
I don't think that the argument that Eatwell is talking about "the general public" can be easily sustained. His essay does not include any non-academic views. He is dealing with "attempts to produce a generic definition of fascist ideology". It is clear that this means he is dealing with academic work, not bar-room discussions or people's private thoughts. If you think otherwise, you should say why.
In terms of "normally" vs "most", my only reason for preferring "most" is economy of style. If there's a consensus, then I would agree to go with "normally". -- 89.241.143.113 ( talk) 22:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
" Consensus by assertion? The lede had been stable for four years until some decided that Fascism had to be "right wing" only. I saw no consensus for ythe wholesale change, and no consensus on the RfC above for your wholesale change, I reqorded it to assuage your concerns after all. And each source specifically suupports the text. I have asked, moreover, for a third opinion here. Thanks. Collect (talk) 15:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC) "
"Or perhaps the one removed as being a "duplicate lead" which gives TFD his "right wing" and also includes a full eighteen sources, covering the full gamut of opinions. Including ones which were present for four years until being removed. Collect (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC) . "
Picking dates at random, starting roughly in the center of the years in question, far enough apart that I felt sure that they would be different, I find eight versions, although I am quite sure there are many more, and it would be scores of edits, if one counts the tentative edits during Talk page discussions, on the way to the longer-running versions.
As it was random, the below are not diffs, and thus do not reflect who made the changes or exactly what changes were made, but are just the state of the page at intervals.
Anarchangel ( talk) 11:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
March 2004: "Is Fascism a doctrine of the Left or Right? Fascism is generally regarded as somehow the opposite to socialism or communism. Mussolini himself characterized it as such in a 1932 paper entitled What Is Fascism?: "...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of ... Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production...." Fascism is the synthesis of the Hegelian dialectic. If the thesis is capitalism and the antithesis is communism, then the synthesis is Fascism. Capitalism says the individual owns property and controls property. Communism says the state owns property and controls property. Fascism, being the synthesis of the two, is that the individual owns property but the state controls it."
May 2005: The origin and ideology of Fascism Etymologically, the use of the word Fascism in modern Italian political history stretches back to the 1890s in the form of fasci, which were radical left-wing political factions that proliferated in the decades before World War I. The adoption of this term by the Fascist Party reflected the previous involvement of a number of them in radical left politics. (See Fascio for more on this movement and its evolution.)
June 2005 " This inconsistency makes it difficult to strictly categorize fascism on the traditional political spectrum, and the definitional debates and arguments by academics over the nature of fascism fill entire bookshelves."
November 2005 (note the section title which you aver dates only back less than a year in the article) Fascism and the political spectrum Early fascists demonstrated a willingness to do whatever was necessary to achieve their ends, and easily shifted from left-wing to right-wing positions as suited their purposes. This inconsistency makes it difficult to strictly categorize fascism on the traditional political spectrum. Some scholars argue that Italian Fascism, unlike some other contemporary movements, did not grow out of a strict theoretical basis. Layton describes Fascism as "not even a rational system of thought", and as "unique but not original". Fascism tends to be associated with the political right, but the appropriateness of this association is often contested. In one sense, fascism can be considered to be a new ideological development that transcends the right/left framework.
Some historians and theorists regard fascism and "Soviet Communism" (or more specifically, Stalinism) as being similar, lumping them together under the term "totalitarianism". Friedrich Hayek argues that the differences between fascism and totalitarian forms of socialism (see Stalinism) are rhetorical rather than actual. Hayek would note that the economic preferences of the fascists mirrored those of the socialists and communists. For example all three put in place capital controls, wage and price controls as means of controlling the economy (and subsequently the people as Hayek’s Road To Serfdom claimed). The rhetorical differences he saw are only found in why these economic preferences are put in place; to protect the lower class in class warfare, or to protect the interest of the state. Such rhetorical differences are negligible compared to the real outcomes of the very similar state economic control used by the three supposedly dissimilar ideologies. Likewise, claims that classic liberals, neoliberals, or even neoconservatives, are fascists is equally ridiculous given that their economic preferences are those of openness, free trade, and limited government interference; the exact opposite economic preferences fascists.
March 2007: Fascists have regarded themselves as representing a "third way" between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism.[4]
And so on. Note particularly that the article had a "political spectrum" section long before last year. Thanks. Collect ( talk) 20:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that what was said in the past was said in the past. It is not as if changes have been proposed without discussion. In fact, it was you who most recently brought up the idea of changing the section, Collect. -- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 23:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Nope? I don't understand you. In any event, the History tab refers to the past. Legwarmers, eating weavils and Hitler all used to be popular, but it doesn't mean that they were right. The history of this artcile is ignorable. The RFC is still there, and BTW it is what brought me here, in case you think you are still waiting on a response-- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 00:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, no-one has accused you of lying. You made a claim about the past stability of material in the article which doesn't seem to have stood up to examination. I'm sure this will have been just an honest mistake on your part. Let's forget about it. -- 78.148.160.141 ( talk) 13:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, Four Deuces did not say that you had lied, he said you were wrong, which you were. Honestly, I don't think this is worthy of further discussion. -- 78.148.160.141 ( talk) 14:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I have a dynamic IP address. I thought that was obvious. Nothing sinister. -- 89.241.143.113 ( talk) 23:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, can you please provide a link to the "Political spectrum" section which you say existed in November 2005. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
A lot of this article contains detail that is already contained in other articles. I suggest that much of the article can be reduced and readers who are interested can click the piped links to get further information. The Four Deuces ( talk) 04:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Wherever possible, think we should be guided by sources, rather than by our own logic, even if that logic might be sound. "Some do some don't" doesn't necessarily mean the material is superfluous or irrelevant. For example, fascists differed in their attitudes to race. That does not mean, though, that racial politics are irrelevant to an article on fascism (and most, if not all, of the sources will support this). Collect, I think what you say would be good for an article entitled "Core tenets of fascism".
I think it would be good to cut down some of the sections, but this should be done carefully with tweasers rather than with a sythe. -- 82.69.202.14 ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Good starting point in reducing article's length would be to remove following sub-sections: Integralism, Revisionist Maximalism, Rexism and 4th of August Regime. They are not main variants of (para)fascism and article won't lose anything on its quality if we remove them. -- Vision Thing -- 07:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to new disputes over the intro for Fascism#Position in the political spectrum I will now write to all persons who partipated in the RfC. If I have left anyone out, please tell me. The Four Deuces ( talk) 21:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism is useful:
'has been hailed as authoritative, from many sundry quarters. The New York Times described the book as “so thorough and in the end, so convincing that it may well become the most authoritative,” while Terry Eagleton called it a “lucid, engagingly readable study.” Foreign Affairs said the book will be authoritative “for a long time to come.”'(Douglas W. Greene (2008), The Bourgeois Origins of Fascist Repression: On Robert Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism, Socialism and Democracy, Volume 22, Issue 2 July 2008 , pages 109 - 120)
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. Paxton, p218
Greene summarises Paxton as saying 'fascism is a rejection of the Western European Enlightenment. As Mussolini himself put it, “Fascism denies that the majority, through the mere fact of being a majority, can rule human societies … [Fascism] affirms the irremediable, fruitful and beneficent inequality of men, who can not be leveled by … universal suffrage.” The first fascists rejected the Enlightenment principles of rationality and equality, in particular its democratic theory in support of universal suffrage, and singled out for attack the Enlightenment tradition's self-avowed successors: all the secular democratic and revolutionary socialist political parties, from Latin Europe to Russia. ... Socialists, from reformists to revolutionaries, have always emphasized that, despite their vehement rhetoric, fascists were never anti-capitalist - a crucial point underscored in Paxton's research.' All of that places fascism very firmly on the side of right-wing authoritarianism. Disembrangler ( talk) 23:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Currently there are two versions of the lead of the section Position in the political spectrum in play ( 1, 2). I think we should take a step back and leave that section alone until we can reach some kind of consensus.
My objections to the first version is mention of "most academics", wording not present in the source, and attempt to link fascism with conservatism (according to the scholarly consensus fascism is ant-conservative [11]). -- Vision Thing -- 07:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
What the Four Deuces and Disembrangler have been saying. In particular, I agree with Disembrangler that Paxton's definition is a) very useful; and b) pretty firmly places fascism on the right. Another source which pretty clearly puts fascism on the right is Ernst Nolte's Three Faces of Fascism - the first face of fascism is the Action Française, which was a French monarchist movement. As Disembrangler says - the point of departure for most academics is that fascism is on the right. Obviously, at that point it's necessary to complicate the picture, because fascism isn't simply on the right - Hitler was not Franz von Papen. In terms of linking fascism with conservatism - well, if the shoe fits. Conservatism is a term that has had many meanings over the past two centuries. What we in the anglosphere call "conservatism" today is what might be described as "liberal-conservatism" - a form of conservatism which accepts liberalism as the basis for government. Authoritarian conservatism is an entirely different beast, and does indeed have connections to fascism. While it would be wrong to say that fascism is authoritarian conservatism, it would be completely correct to state that fascists came to power usually through the machinations of authoritarian conservatives, that when in power they almost always acted in cooperation with authoritarian conservatives in their countries (e.g. Vittorio Emanuele, Hindenburg, Papen, Pétain, Antonescu, Franco), and that authoritarian conservatives typically saw a lot to like in fascism. john k ( talk) 14:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, it looks like there are three objections:
As a holding position then, would there be any objections (and if so what would they be?) to:
The only thing I would see as missing from this is the reference to "acadmics" or something similar. -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 19:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
No, I don't think I am, and I agree with what you say (subject to considerations of due weight). The proposed lead originally added:
There is no source for this, but I don't get the impression that it is contentious, and I would support its inclusion. More specific information could also be added in the following paragraphs (eg certain modes of rhetoric, policies and influences which are cited by sources as being rooted in the left). -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 21:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been through and removed some of the footnotes from the "political spectrum" section. They were too many in number and so I've removed ones that were duplicative or not related to the wording for which they were cited. For example, the quote from Linehan as the end of the section was backed by ten footnotes. All that is really needed is to provide a footnote for the source of Linehan's statement. Citing everyone who has cited or agreed with him is not necessary.
Whilst I was at it, I changed two sentences:
I also added a reference for the statement "A number of fascist movements described themselves as a "third force" that was outside the traditional political spectrum altogether", since I felt it needed one. -- 78.144.100.103 ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
If you think I've made a mistake in removing any particular footnotes, then please say which and why.
Please note, though, that stacking an assertion with superflous cites simply to discourage editors from challenging or removing it is probably WP:PUFFERY and WP:Bombardment.
If you are concerned about the last sentence of the section, I think it is less likely to be challenged now, since it has been rephrased to make it (IMO) true and verifiable. It may still be open to challenge on the grounds that it is tangential, I reckon, however.-- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 21:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Why on earth have you reverted this, Soxwon? Your edit summary says: "return to last stable version until RfC's conclusion". However, the RfC has expired. In any event, there is no rule that the fact that an RfC is happening is grounds for reverting or trying to hold a page in stasis. The RfC was about the lead, not the footnotes, in any case.-- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 22:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
No way Soxwon. If you really think the page should be kept in stasis, then there is a process for achieving that, and you should request a full indefinite block. For good reason, though, that is considered a radical measure. What I don't think you should do is try to issue a fiat against futher revisions. Particularly since it is not clear when a consensus will be acheived. Which means you appear to be arbitrarily deciding that the article should stay put...possibly forever. I don't agree with this, but I'll do you a barnstar if you can achieve it. (You'll have to wait until the end of forever, of course ;) ).
The revisions I made were to remove clearly excessive footnotes. The version you have reverted to have one footnote for approximately every eleven words of text. There are approximately three times as many words in the footnotes to the section as there are in the section itself (!). I didn't remove any useful footnotes, just duplicates and footnotes in serious non-compliance with WP:CITE (ie they had no page numbers and were highly dubious).
No-one is debating the contents of the footnotes, just the lead paragraph, which isn't actually in the article at present, so the argument that says "we won't know what we're talking about" makes no sense to me.
Please do not revert again unless you have specific reasons why the edits you are reverting deserve it. Many thanks. -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 01:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice that you self-reverted, Soxwon. Thanks, I appreciate it. -- FormerIP ( talk) 11:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Although many Fascist movements were Anti-Intellectual, I think that it is not safe to say they were against Rationalism. All you have to do is look at anything related to Giovanni Gentile to find Fascism was rooted in Logic. Although this didn't transfer to many Fascist movements beyond Italian Fascism, I don't believe that this is something that is a core tenet of Fascism, as they make it seem by putting it at the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.101.48.190 ( talk) 11:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, I do not have many books, but I can show you in Wikipedia's own article that he used an immense amount of thinking that went into Giovanni Gentile's thought( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Gentile). Now, if you want to represent all forms of Fascism, I would say that Anti-Rationalism is a trend and not a requirement, and if you want to represent Fascism as it was in Italy, or originally, then you would say it is quite the opposite. To quote the article on Giovanni Gentile: "Gentile had believed so firmly in the philosophical concreteness of Fascism as having a dialectical intelligence surpassing intellectual scrutiny, that he presumed intellectual opposition could only reinforce and give credence to help the truth of his conception of Fascism as a superior and liberally thinking polity."
Also, notice that it also states the following: "Gentile sought to make his philosophy become the basis of Fascism in much the same manner Marx had developed his philosophy as the basis of Communism. However, with Gentile & with Fascism, the 'problem of the party' existed, and existed by the fact that the Fascist party came to be organically rather than from a tract or pre-made doctrine of thought."
To support this again, an example from his life: In 1944 he was killed by a group of anti-fascist partisans led by Bruno Fanciullacci,[3] while returning from the Prefecture in Florence, where, ironically or perhaps poignantly, he had argued for the release of anti-fascist intellectuals." Is we may agree that the article on Giovanni Gentile is at least somewhat correct and trust the sources it sites, then when can not just assume but know that Fascism is not a Necessary(note that I say necessary not common) Trait of Fascism. In this article, you say "Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism[10], rationalism, liberalism, conservatism, capitalism, and communism."
By saying this, you are implying that every single form of Fascism must be opposed to Rationalism, or it is by default not Fascism. This is obviously not true if we take one examination at Giovanni Gentile's Thought and Fascist Italy. As already stated, it allowed different views to come together in the Dialectic.-- 24.101.48.190 ( talk) 22:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Here is a slightly refined version of the proposed lead I put forward a couple of weeks ago. It would be good if people could comment, even if you don't have much to say. If you have objections, please explain them as best you can and propose alternative wording if that is what you think is needed.
I have an idea that it would be good to notify people who have expressed a view in past discussions on this subject. It would be about 30 people. What do people think of this?
NOTE: I've contacted editors who have previously expressed an opionion on this, going back over 2 years. I make a polite request that no-one jump the gun by inserting the proposed paragraph, even if a consensus appears to be emerging. I would like the opportunity to respond to comments made first.-- FormerIP ( talk) 02:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Proposed lead paragraph for the " Political Spectrum" sub-section:
The source which it is claimed supports this reads as follows.
Note that the third sentence of the proposed paragraph is not supported by this source. However, I get the impression that there are no strong objectors to it.
Please please comment. -- FormerIP ( talk) 15:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I got a message on my user talk page asking for my comments, so here they are for what they may be worth.
It looks pretty good overall, and I agree with Jmabel's suggestions. Spylab ( talk) 01:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I strongly agree with Jmabel's comments here - except that it was Otto, rather than Gregor, Strasser who was the leftist. john k ( talk) 01:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Source that R-41 provided, and which says that fascist position in the political spectrum is a contentious issue for scholars/historians, should be incorporated into the lead. -- Vision Thing -- 16:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I just add that we should certainly indicate that when Fascists themselves have defined their place on the political spectrum, they have normally considered themselves as being on the right. Here's Mussolini, for instance: It is to be expected that this century may be that of authority, a century of the "Right," a Fascist century. Most non-fascist contemporaries also tended to see the Nazis as a phenomenon of the right - thus their alliances with traditional right-wingers. Fascism may have been the bastard child of socialism (and in most cases it was - although much less so in the Nazi case than pretty much any other), but it was firmly and almost universally considered to belong in some sense to the right during the interwar period. You know who someone is by who they associate with, and fascists everywhere tended to ally with the traditional right. Modern scholars may complicate this picture, but it is necessary to paint the basic picture of fascism as being on the right in order to even understand what those scholars are talking about. john k ( talk) 18:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Fascism is generally considered a right-wing or far-right ideology. Although I agree that 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' are so general to be almost meaningless, it is worth noting that 'centrist' is just as meaningless. As these terms are understood, fascists are seen, and self identify as right, or far-right. Intentional obfuscation by maverick scholars notwithstanding. FelixFelix talk 09:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
I have started a new section because the old section is now too long.
The Vision Thing has mentioned Eatwell's definition of fascism which is actually already in the article under the section "Definitions". However we are discussing another section called "Fascism in the political spectrum" which is different. The consensus view, which Eatwell mentions, is that fascists were right-wing. If Vision Thing disagrees, please provide something that supports your opinion. BTW I think that Vision Thing may not understand what the terms "conservative" and "right-wing" mean. Academics were not trying to place fascism on any contemporary American ideological scale. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that "Jewish fascism" appears fourth after Italian, German, and Romanian. "Jewish fascism" to the extent it existed, never held state power, and likely never comprised more than a few thousand people. Why then discuss it right after the European Axis powers while listing Spanish fascism last? Why no discussion of Arab fascism reflected in the movements of Nasser and other Arab dictators?
I suggest the editors review the listing and description of various fascist movement for anti-Semitic bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.125.144.16 ( talk) 22:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we should only stick to what sources say are the main variants of fascism? For example, Payne in A history of fascism as major variants (beside Italian and German) discusses cases from Austria, Hungary, Romania and Spain. -- Vision Thing -- 11:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
There should be some mention of fascist groups that existed in other countries, e.g., the Silvershirts in the US although no reason to give them their own sections. They already have their own articles. Maybe there could be a list. Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was a Palestinian collaborator of the Axis, and is frequently mentioned by hardcore supporters of Israel today. [1] I don' think that he established any specifically fascist organization though. The Four Deuces ( talk) 12:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Please can you discuss changes you would like to make in talk. The material you are inserting is not at all supported by the sources cited, whereas the material you are deleting is properly sourced and other editors appear to agree that it is. As I indicated a couple of days ago, the minor objection you raised can be sorted, I think, through discussion, but they are no reason for deleting properly sourced material in favour of the opposite.
In summary, please discuss changes you would like to make here. Thank you. -- 89.242.184.16 ( talk) 23:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The assertion that "most" scholars put fascism on the extreme right is unsourced and contrary to most of the sources in the section. In fact, most of the authorities cited in the section say that fascist ideology incorporates elements of both right and left and that trying to peg it at one spot on a political spectrum is not very useful. Lacquer supports this synthesis, syncretist or sui generis view: "did not belong to the extreme Left, yet defining it as part of the extreme Right is not very illuminating either" in fact he says calling it right wing is "simplistic". Stanley Payne supports the same approach: “fascists “were unique (sui generis) in their hostility to all the main established currents, left right and center." (parenthetical added) Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition p. 8. He goes on to say that this was complicated by the need to find political allies. He notes that they more often allied with the right but also allied with the left. The “[m]any scholars [who] accept fascism as a search for a third way between capitalism and communism” as the section says (nine sources are cited) also support the idea that it is neither firmly left nor right. Roger Griffin notes, "Not only does the location of fascism within the right pose taxonomic problems, there are good grounds for cutting this particular Gordian knot altogether by placing it in a category of its own (sui generis) ‘beyond left and right’." (parenthetical added) As the article says, Lipset sees fascism as "extremism of the center". As noted in the section, von Mises and Sternhell see fascism as a type of socialism. As you can see, most of the sources in the section plainly DO NOT put fascism on the far right but say that it is problematic to do so. The intro should say just that.
On another but related point, after the 1980s almost all works on fascism include the fascist negations, this article has a fatal flaw if it fails to do so. The article should simply state them, as it had stably in the past for a long period, in the classic form as formulated by Payne: anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism and anti-communism. I am going to edit the article accordingly. Mamalujo ( talk) 18:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Following discussion about the lede sentence, a very broad consensus was reached, despite one contrarian position and therefore I have inserted the proposed sentences. However it is now important that we improve the section. The Four Deuces ( talk) 04:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It is inappropriate to ask for a third opinion here. "Third opinion is a means to request an outside opinion in a dispute between two editors." There is an on-going discussion here involving more than two people. The Four Deuces ( talk) 15:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
{{rfctag|pol}} In the lead, is it appropriate to describe fascism solely as a right-wing ideology, or should its relationship to the political spectrum be more nuanced? The issue is treated in more detail at Fascism#Position in the political spectrum.
Please reserve this section for outside comments. Discussion from previously engaged editors may be found in the preceding sections.
- 2/0 ( cont.) 17:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The new version is pretty good, but describing fascism as a combination of authoritarian conservatism and right-wing nationalism does not dissent from describing fascism as far right. Also, there was no need for the excess of quotation marks. Spylab ( talk) 21:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect: Overall, this discussion has gone on a long time. Many users have commented, but you have only found support from one other. I'll admit to not being a disinterested party. However, I would suggest that, whilst you should continue to invite discussion about the matter if you wish to, it is no longer reasonable for you to just delete content which is agreed by other users. -- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 23:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that's more than doubtful, but it might be worth dicsussing if you can find an RS that makes that claim.-- 78.144.92.135 ( talk) 13:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Vision Thing: I would agree to including something about fascism and conservatism, including views that dissociate the two (although it should also be noted that there are views which do the opposite). However, it isn't clear to me where this should go - I'm not sure if the "political spectrum" section is the appropriate place, although maybe it is. The wording you cite is already heavily quoted in the preceding section.
What should be noted is that the quote from Griffin isn't a challenge to what Eatwell says. I'm going to restore the section lead. If you have concerns about the specific wording, then that is not grounds for deleting the whole paragraph.
I don't think that the argument that Eatwell is talking about "the general public" can be easily sustained. His essay does not include any non-academic views. He is dealing with "attempts to produce a generic definition of fascist ideology". It is clear that this means he is dealing with academic work, not bar-room discussions or people's private thoughts. If you think otherwise, you should say why.
In terms of "normally" vs "most", my only reason for preferring "most" is economy of style. If there's a consensus, then I would agree to go with "normally". -- 89.241.143.113 ( talk) 22:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
" Consensus by assertion? The lede had been stable for four years until some decided that Fascism had to be "right wing" only. I saw no consensus for ythe wholesale change, and no consensus on the RfC above for your wholesale change, I reqorded it to assuage your concerns after all. And each source specifically suupports the text. I have asked, moreover, for a third opinion here. Thanks. Collect (talk) 15:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC) "
"Or perhaps the one removed as being a "duplicate lead" which gives TFD his "right wing" and also includes a full eighteen sources, covering the full gamut of opinions. Including ones which were present for four years until being removed. Collect (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC) . "
Picking dates at random, starting roughly in the center of the years in question, far enough apart that I felt sure that they would be different, I find eight versions, although I am quite sure there are many more, and it would be scores of edits, if one counts the tentative edits during Talk page discussions, on the way to the longer-running versions.
As it was random, the below are not diffs, and thus do not reflect who made the changes or exactly what changes were made, but are just the state of the page at intervals.
Anarchangel ( talk) 11:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
March 2004: "Is Fascism a doctrine of the Left or Right? Fascism is generally regarded as somehow the opposite to socialism or communism. Mussolini himself characterized it as such in a 1932 paper entitled What Is Fascism?: "...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of ... Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production...." Fascism is the synthesis of the Hegelian dialectic. If the thesis is capitalism and the antithesis is communism, then the synthesis is Fascism. Capitalism says the individual owns property and controls property. Communism says the state owns property and controls property. Fascism, being the synthesis of the two, is that the individual owns property but the state controls it."
May 2005: The origin and ideology of Fascism Etymologically, the use of the word Fascism in modern Italian political history stretches back to the 1890s in the form of fasci, which were radical left-wing political factions that proliferated in the decades before World War I. The adoption of this term by the Fascist Party reflected the previous involvement of a number of them in radical left politics. (See Fascio for more on this movement and its evolution.)
June 2005 " This inconsistency makes it difficult to strictly categorize fascism on the traditional political spectrum, and the definitional debates and arguments by academics over the nature of fascism fill entire bookshelves."
November 2005 (note the section title which you aver dates only back less than a year in the article) Fascism and the political spectrum Early fascists demonstrated a willingness to do whatever was necessary to achieve their ends, and easily shifted from left-wing to right-wing positions as suited their purposes. This inconsistency makes it difficult to strictly categorize fascism on the traditional political spectrum. Some scholars argue that Italian Fascism, unlike some other contemporary movements, did not grow out of a strict theoretical basis. Layton describes Fascism as "not even a rational system of thought", and as "unique but not original". Fascism tends to be associated with the political right, but the appropriateness of this association is often contested. In one sense, fascism can be considered to be a new ideological development that transcends the right/left framework.
Some historians and theorists regard fascism and "Soviet Communism" (or more specifically, Stalinism) as being similar, lumping them together under the term "totalitarianism". Friedrich Hayek argues that the differences between fascism and totalitarian forms of socialism (see Stalinism) are rhetorical rather than actual. Hayek would note that the economic preferences of the fascists mirrored those of the socialists and communists. For example all three put in place capital controls, wage and price controls as means of controlling the economy (and subsequently the people as Hayek’s Road To Serfdom claimed). The rhetorical differences he saw are only found in why these economic preferences are put in place; to protect the lower class in class warfare, or to protect the interest of the state. Such rhetorical differences are negligible compared to the real outcomes of the very similar state economic control used by the three supposedly dissimilar ideologies. Likewise, claims that classic liberals, neoliberals, or even neoconservatives, are fascists is equally ridiculous given that their economic preferences are those of openness, free trade, and limited government interference; the exact opposite economic preferences fascists.
March 2007: Fascists have regarded themselves as representing a "third way" between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism.[4]
And so on. Note particularly that the article had a "political spectrum" section long before last year. Thanks. Collect ( talk) 20:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that what was said in the past was said in the past. It is not as if changes have been proposed without discussion. In fact, it was you who most recently brought up the idea of changing the section, Collect. -- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 23:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Nope? I don't understand you. In any event, the History tab refers to the past. Legwarmers, eating weavils and Hitler all used to be popular, but it doesn't mean that they were right. The history of this artcile is ignorable. The RFC is still there, and BTW it is what brought me here, in case you think you are still waiting on a response-- 78.144.216.40 ( talk) 00:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, no-one has accused you of lying. You made a claim about the past stability of material in the article which doesn't seem to have stood up to examination. I'm sure this will have been just an honest mistake on your part. Let's forget about it. -- 78.148.160.141 ( talk) 13:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, Four Deuces did not say that you had lied, he said you were wrong, which you were. Honestly, I don't think this is worthy of further discussion. -- 78.148.160.141 ( talk) 14:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I have a dynamic IP address. I thought that was obvious. Nothing sinister. -- 89.241.143.113 ( talk) 23:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, can you please provide a link to the "Political spectrum" section which you say existed in November 2005. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
A lot of this article contains detail that is already contained in other articles. I suggest that much of the article can be reduced and readers who are interested can click the piped links to get further information. The Four Deuces ( talk) 04:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Wherever possible, think we should be guided by sources, rather than by our own logic, even if that logic might be sound. "Some do some don't" doesn't necessarily mean the material is superfluous or irrelevant. For example, fascists differed in their attitudes to race. That does not mean, though, that racial politics are irrelevant to an article on fascism (and most, if not all, of the sources will support this). Collect, I think what you say would be good for an article entitled "Core tenets of fascism".
I think it would be good to cut down some of the sections, but this should be done carefully with tweasers rather than with a sythe. -- 82.69.202.14 ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Good starting point in reducing article's length would be to remove following sub-sections: Integralism, Revisionist Maximalism, Rexism and 4th of August Regime. They are not main variants of (para)fascism and article won't lose anything on its quality if we remove them. -- Vision Thing -- 07:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to new disputes over the intro for Fascism#Position in the political spectrum I will now write to all persons who partipated in the RfC. If I have left anyone out, please tell me. The Four Deuces ( talk) 21:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism is useful:
'has been hailed as authoritative, from many sundry quarters. The New York Times described the book as “so thorough and in the end, so convincing that it may well become the most authoritative,” while Terry Eagleton called it a “lucid, engagingly readable study.” Foreign Affairs said the book will be authoritative “for a long time to come.”'(Douglas W. Greene (2008), The Bourgeois Origins of Fascist Repression: On Robert Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism, Socialism and Democracy, Volume 22, Issue 2 July 2008 , pages 109 - 120)
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. Paxton, p218
Greene summarises Paxton as saying 'fascism is a rejection of the Western European Enlightenment. As Mussolini himself put it, “Fascism denies that the majority, through the mere fact of being a majority, can rule human societies … [Fascism] affirms the irremediable, fruitful and beneficent inequality of men, who can not be leveled by … universal suffrage.” The first fascists rejected the Enlightenment principles of rationality and equality, in particular its democratic theory in support of universal suffrage, and singled out for attack the Enlightenment tradition's self-avowed successors: all the secular democratic and revolutionary socialist political parties, from Latin Europe to Russia. ... Socialists, from reformists to revolutionaries, have always emphasized that, despite their vehement rhetoric, fascists were never anti-capitalist - a crucial point underscored in Paxton's research.' All of that places fascism very firmly on the side of right-wing authoritarianism. Disembrangler ( talk) 23:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Currently there are two versions of the lead of the section Position in the political spectrum in play ( 1, 2). I think we should take a step back and leave that section alone until we can reach some kind of consensus.
My objections to the first version is mention of "most academics", wording not present in the source, and attempt to link fascism with conservatism (according to the scholarly consensus fascism is ant-conservative [11]). -- Vision Thing -- 07:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
What the Four Deuces and Disembrangler have been saying. In particular, I agree with Disembrangler that Paxton's definition is a) very useful; and b) pretty firmly places fascism on the right. Another source which pretty clearly puts fascism on the right is Ernst Nolte's Three Faces of Fascism - the first face of fascism is the Action Française, which was a French monarchist movement. As Disembrangler says - the point of departure for most academics is that fascism is on the right. Obviously, at that point it's necessary to complicate the picture, because fascism isn't simply on the right - Hitler was not Franz von Papen. In terms of linking fascism with conservatism - well, if the shoe fits. Conservatism is a term that has had many meanings over the past two centuries. What we in the anglosphere call "conservatism" today is what might be described as "liberal-conservatism" - a form of conservatism which accepts liberalism as the basis for government. Authoritarian conservatism is an entirely different beast, and does indeed have connections to fascism. While it would be wrong to say that fascism is authoritarian conservatism, it would be completely correct to state that fascists came to power usually through the machinations of authoritarian conservatives, that when in power they almost always acted in cooperation with authoritarian conservatives in their countries (e.g. Vittorio Emanuele, Hindenburg, Papen, Pétain, Antonescu, Franco), and that authoritarian conservatives typically saw a lot to like in fascism. john k ( talk) 14:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, it looks like there are three objections:
As a holding position then, would there be any objections (and if so what would they be?) to:
The only thing I would see as missing from this is the reference to "acadmics" or something similar. -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 19:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
No, I don't think I am, and I agree with what you say (subject to considerations of due weight). The proposed lead originally added:
There is no source for this, but I don't get the impression that it is contentious, and I would support its inclusion. More specific information could also be added in the following paragraphs (eg certain modes of rhetoric, policies and influences which are cited by sources as being rooted in the left). -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 21:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been through and removed some of the footnotes from the "political spectrum" section. They were too many in number and so I've removed ones that were duplicative or not related to the wording for which they were cited. For example, the quote from Linehan as the end of the section was backed by ten footnotes. All that is really needed is to provide a footnote for the source of Linehan's statement. Citing everyone who has cited or agreed with him is not necessary.
Whilst I was at it, I changed two sentences:
I also added a reference for the statement "A number of fascist movements described themselves as a "third force" that was outside the traditional political spectrum altogether", since I felt it needed one. -- 78.144.100.103 ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
If you think I've made a mistake in removing any particular footnotes, then please say which and why.
Please note, though, that stacking an assertion with superflous cites simply to discourage editors from challenging or removing it is probably WP:PUFFERY and WP:Bombardment.
If you are concerned about the last sentence of the section, I think it is less likely to be challenged now, since it has been rephrased to make it (IMO) true and verifiable. It may still be open to challenge on the grounds that it is tangential, I reckon, however.-- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 21:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Why on earth have you reverted this, Soxwon? Your edit summary says: "return to last stable version until RfC's conclusion". However, the RfC has expired. In any event, there is no rule that the fact that an RfC is happening is grounds for reverting or trying to hold a page in stasis. The RfC was about the lead, not the footnotes, in any case.-- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 22:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
No way Soxwon. If you really think the page should be kept in stasis, then there is a process for achieving that, and you should request a full indefinite block. For good reason, though, that is considered a radical measure. What I don't think you should do is try to issue a fiat against futher revisions. Particularly since it is not clear when a consensus will be acheived. Which means you appear to be arbitrarily deciding that the article should stay put...possibly forever. I don't agree with this, but I'll do you a barnstar if you can achieve it. (You'll have to wait until the end of forever, of course ;) ).
The revisions I made were to remove clearly excessive footnotes. The version you have reverted to have one footnote for approximately every eleven words of text. There are approximately three times as many words in the footnotes to the section as there are in the section itself (!). I didn't remove any useful footnotes, just duplicates and footnotes in serious non-compliance with WP:CITE (ie they had no page numbers and were highly dubious).
No-one is debating the contents of the footnotes, just the lead paragraph, which isn't actually in the article at present, so the argument that says "we won't know what we're talking about" makes no sense to me.
Please do not revert again unless you have specific reasons why the edits you are reverting deserve it. Many thanks. -- 78.149.108.242 ( talk) 01:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice that you self-reverted, Soxwon. Thanks, I appreciate it. -- FormerIP ( talk) 11:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Although many Fascist movements were Anti-Intellectual, I think that it is not safe to say they were against Rationalism. All you have to do is look at anything related to Giovanni Gentile to find Fascism was rooted in Logic. Although this didn't transfer to many Fascist movements beyond Italian Fascism, I don't believe that this is something that is a core tenet of Fascism, as they make it seem by putting it at the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.101.48.190 ( talk) 11:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, I do not have many books, but I can show you in Wikipedia's own article that he used an immense amount of thinking that went into Giovanni Gentile's thought( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Gentile). Now, if you want to represent all forms of Fascism, I would say that Anti-Rationalism is a trend and not a requirement, and if you want to represent Fascism as it was in Italy, or originally, then you would say it is quite the opposite. To quote the article on Giovanni Gentile: "Gentile had believed so firmly in the philosophical concreteness of Fascism as having a dialectical intelligence surpassing intellectual scrutiny, that he presumed intellectual opposition could only reinforce and give credence to help the truth of his conception of Fascism as a superior and liberally thinking polity."
Also, notice that it also states the following: "Gentile sought to make his philosophy become the basis of Fascism in much the same manner Marx had developed his philosophy as the basis of Communism. However, with Gentile & with Fascism, the 'problem of the party' existed, and existed by the fact that the Fascist party came to be organically rather than from a tract or pre-made doctrine of thought."
To support this again, an example from his life: In 1944 he was killed by a group of anti-fascist partisans led by Bruno Fanciullacci,[3] while returning from the Prefecture in Florence, where, ironically or perhaps poignantly, he had argued for the release of anti-fascist intellectuals." Is we may agree that the article on Giovanni Gentile is at least somewhat correct and trust the sources it sites, then when can not just assume but know that Fascism is not a Necessary(note that I say necessary not common) Trait of Fascism. In this article, you say "Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism[10], rationalism, liberalism, conservatism, capitalism, and communism."
By saying this, you are implying that every single form of Fascism must be opposed to Rationalism, or it is by default not Fascism. This is obviously not true if we take one examination at Giovanni Gentile's Thought and Fascist Italy. As already stated, it allowed different views to come together in the Dialectic.-- 24.101.48.190 ( talk) 22:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Here is a slightly refined version of the proposed lead I put forward a couple of weeks ago. It would be good if people could comment, even if you don't have much to say. If you have objections, please explain them as best you can and propose alternative wording if that is what you think is needed.
I have an idea that it would be good to notify people who have expressed a view in past discussions on this subject. It would be about 30 people. What do people think of this?
NOTE: I've contacted editors who have previously expressed an opionion on this, going back over 2 years. I make a polite request that no-one jump the gun by inserting the proposed paragraph, even if a consensus appears to be emerging. I would like the opportunity to respond to comments made first.-- FormerIP ( talk) 02:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Proposed lead paragraph for the " Political Spectrum" sub-section:
The source which it is claimed supports this reads as follows.
Note that the third sentence of the proposed paragraph is not supported by this source. However, I get the impression that there are no strong objectors to it.
Please please comment. -- FormerIP ( talk) 15:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I got a message on my user talk page asking for my comments, so here they are for what they may be worth.
It looks pretty good overall, and I agree with Jmabel's suggestions. Spylab ( talk) 01:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I strongly agree with Jmabel's comments here - except that it was Otto, rather than Gregor, Strasser who was the leftist. john k ( talk) 01:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Source that R-41 provided, and which says that fascist position in the political spectrum is a contentious issue for scholars/historians, should be incorporated into the lead. -- Vision Thing -- 16:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I just add that we should certainly indicate that when Fascists themselves have defined their place on the political spectrum, they have normally considered themselves as being on the right. Here's Mussolini, for instance: It is to be expected that this century may be that of authority, a century of the "Right," a Fascist century. Most non-fascist contemporaries also tended to see the Nazis as a phenomenon of the right - thus their alliances with traditional right-wingers. Fascism may have been the bastard child of socialism (and in most cases it was - although much less so in the Nazi case than pretty much any other), but it was firmly and almost universally considered to belong in some sense to the right during the interwar period. You know who someone is by who they associate with, and fascists everywhere tended to ally with the traditional right. Modern scholars may complicate this picture, but it is necessary to paint the basic picture of fascism as being on the right in order to even understand what those scholars are talking about. john k ( talk) 18:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Fascism is generally considered a right-wing or far-right ideology. Although I agree that 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' are so general to be almost meaningless, it is worth noting that 'centrist' is just as meaningless. As these terms are understood, fascists are seen, and self identify as right, or far-right. Intentional obfuscation by maverick scholars notwithstanding. FelixFelix talk 09:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)