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An editor insists on this in the lede. The cite he gives is [21] which says on page 266 that "collectivism" is the key element in Communist and Fascist ideology. He asserts that the fasces in and of itself represents collectivism (interesting since it was on the US dime all through WW II). I guess the US was officially collectivist as a result <g>. I asked him to come here and make his case for this edit which he has insisted on through multiple reverts. Should he not do so, I would ask for the opinions of others whether "collectivist" should be added to radical, authoritarian and nationalist. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 20:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
(out) It took a lot of work to get consensus on the current wording. Feel free to do a request for comment on any other version use [22] to make an RFC which wil be auto-posted to WP:RFC/A, but absent any new consensus forming, I suggest we stick with this as relatively clear and succinct. Else we will end up with the fifteen cite concatenation of the past. Collect ( talk) 15:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Mussolini himself described fascism as collectivist and anti-individualist. That we're having this dispute is bizarre. Introman ( talk) 21:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
(out) and perhaps you will note that the EB quote you give does not back your claims. (EB is tertiary source by the way) Collect ( talk) 01:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to establish what "collectivist" means in fascist philosophy. There are two sorts of collectivism: political or social collectivism, and economic collectivism. Fascism is definintely collectivist in social nature; however, economically, it strongly supports private property and the free market. It's the economy that's up to debate, in my opinion. -- UNSC Trooper ( talk) 09:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Since corporatism is the primary economic manifestation of fascism and common to all fascist systems, I don't understand why some people here want to delete it. Please explain. PhilLiberty ( talk) 16:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Corporatism is mentioned in passing, with very dubious claims. I don't believe the claim that "German Nazism officially rejected it." There's a reference to a book with no quote. I have a quote saying "corporatism was adopted in Italy and Germany during the 1930s" contradicing that. 2. Name a fascist state without corporatism. I think corporatism is a necessary condition of fascism. In economic texts, fascism means corporatism. 3. Right, but we should add the important defining aspects of fascism, and corporatism is every bit as important as nationalism. 4. Corporatism is a main point of fascism. You don't understand fascism unless you understand its economic arrangement. PhilLiberty ( talk) 04:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=tP2wXl5nzboC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=Noel+O'Sullivan+fascism&source=bl&ots=lpGcBoM-as&sig=YBJ64Ruip0c7vPlVh4ndB9PSb8M&hl=en&ei=DPDlSeeyBsSrtgeBk-yXAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA158,M1 Hitler's economic policies took a backseat to racial profiling. Those who insisted on economic corporatism were murdered. The Italians used corporatism, in the sense that any of the three conflicting views of economics presented by Mussolini were labeled corporatism. In essence, both talked about corporatism, but instead did many things that conflicted under the label of corporatism, which is what the text states. Soxwon ( talk) 14:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
"Corporatism in this sense was obviously just a formula for warmongering," plz explain how this fits? Soxwon ( talk) 16:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm still not convinced that corporatism is a defining feature of all fascist regimes, especially economically, when you have the Nazis killing those who advocated the economic portion of corporatism (George Strasser was one such victim) and Mussolini changing its meaning to fit the situation. It meant first a new social order, merging the classes, then a new political order to keep discipline (and in this interpretation, he stated it was tied to no one political system and thus doesn't seem to be a part of fascism), then finally a new form of democracy (which conveniently allowed him to take over Parlaiment). All this shows it was really just a convenient term to further his agenda. If Italy can't keep it's role straight, and Germany de-emphasized its role in the economic sphere, how can you claim it's a tenent of ALL fascist economies? Soxwon ( talk) 18:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
What happened? Someone found a single source sympathetic to corporatism, wherein the author made an ad hoc addition to the definition of corporatism in his book to exclude fascist regimes. This is ridiculous. One might note that there exist people who deny that fascism is corporatist, but simply excluding a consensus defining characteristic is not right. PhilLiberty ( talk) 12:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, just wandered in here and was puzzled by the NPOV tag. Is this the discussion in relation that?-- Happysomeone ( talk) 23:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Despite leading experts on fascism saying that corporatism is a defining feature, such as Noel O'Sullivan and Aristotle A. Kallis quoted above, two editors want to leave corporatism out of the lede. That is what this particular discussion is about. This just in: Russia Today Interviews Gerald Celente. Celente says:
America is going from what used to be the major capitalistic country in the world of free market – a crusader – into what Mussolini would have called fascism: the merger of state and corporate powers. So it is not socialism as people believe, it is socialism’s egalitarianism. It’s not communism where the state controls monopolies – it’s fascism, plain and simple. The merger of corporate and government powers. State-controlled capitalism is called fascism, and fascism has come to America in broad daylight. But they’re feeding them it in little bits and pieces. First AIG was too big to fail. Mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were too big to fail. Banks too big to fail and auto companies. And now we give money to the people that make the auto parts. And now there’s talk about the technology companies, wanting their piece of the action. The merger of state and government is called fascism. Take it from Mussolini; he knew a thing or two about it.
The two editors seem to want to censor out this aspect of fascism, for who knows what reason. PhilLiberty ( talk) 21:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone at all in favor of the bloated lead we now have? It is, IMHO, nearly the worst one we have had, but the proponent is pursuing a claim that I am specifically editwarring against him -- so if others do not apprecuiate this sort of edit, please make it clear. Collect ( talk) 02:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps searching for a "generic" or consensual, or all-purpose definition of fascism is counter-productive to the authors here and to readers. I don't at all regard Collect's drafts or the other authors as attempting something so simplistic, yet as with the "political spectrum" thread, the discussion keeps coming around to examples and counterexamples to try to illuminate the "core principles". I am reminded that in Michel Foucault's "Society Must Be Defended" (1977), he writes: "the nonanalysis of fascism is one of the most important political facts of the last thirty years". The above talk and the WP article itself takes me a long way in trying to understand fascism historically. Perhaps the analysis flounders on competing economic/political/ideological/historical frameworks that simply aren't up to the task. If I am to use the term "fascism" or "fascist" historically and analytically, then it helps to know that it is a series of historically contingent movements, alliances, and appropriations which were locally very useful. 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 23:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
As I reread the discussion under the "lede", I am again struck by the confoundedness of defining fascism. Counfounded because the evidence offered in favor of a "generic" definition is always grounded in historically specific examples. I do not propose that we abandon a worthy endeavor to try to understand it, nor should we fail to muster reliable scholarship for this purpose. As an introduction to the article, however, I was trying to suggest, historically, fascism has been extraordinarily resilient and pliable (or like jelly). The discussions under numerous headings throughout the talk (e.g., religion, gender, nationalism, statism) suggest that fascism must be understood in its various historical and geo-political incarnations. I brought up Foucault before because this discussion has required people to revisit a whole host of central concepts (liberalism, war, power) before the discussion can progress. That is important to acknowledge, and when the nuances of the discussion are lost, then subsequent analyses suffer. 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 13:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)Lisa (I apologize for failing to sign my previous comment except as assigned as "User talk:68.42.27.11".
I hope this is satisfactory to everyone. PhilLiberty ( talk) 23:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Historians and political scientists disagree on a precise definition, however; some would omit one or more of the preceding themes, while others would add many more. [1]
Someone keeps changing the intro phrase to one that is disconnected. Fascism is essentially a "radical and authoritarian nationalist ideology" as said by four sources. The SUBJECT and PURPOSE of fascism = nationalism, the MEANS to achieve its subject and purpose = radicalism + authoritarianism. But it is not a radical AND authoritarian AND nationalist ideology, because that divides the purpose in three, it is radical and authoritarian in pursuing its nationalist goals. Now I urge the person to please consult the discussion page before reverting this again because a minor change of words can alter the entire meaning of a sentence.-- R-41 ( talk) 04:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Let me weigh in here one more time. I have reread pertinent chunks of the article and the discussion, and I realize that this discussion has occurred many times, frustrating all concerned, and I apologize for that. Taking my cue from The Four Deuces, Soxwon, and Mdw0 who have picked up the concern, at the end of long discussions of corporatism, collectivism, and the unwieldy introduction that Collect identifies as one of the article's weaknesses, I hope my comment will help. In two key places in the article, the editors have made very clear that what fascism was and is have been hotly contested by scholars. These important qualifiers occur in the Definition and in the section on Variations and Subforms. When I reread the article's introduction, however, fascism appears as a timeless "is" before it slips into an historically specific example in the sixth sentence. As I have tried to argue, perhaps unsuccessfully, there was, indeed, a factual, historical, and verifiable emergence of fascism. What it was and how it influenced and was influenced by contemporaneous events and forces is supremely important. It was a "radical and authoritarian nationalist ideology", so I adhere to R-41's phrasing and reasoning. I only object to the "is"--as the present tense implies that fascism is an essential and therefore timeless form of polis.
Readers should be able read the article and come away being able to separate the perjorative sense of fascism and its overuse, from the historical and analytic sense that allows comparison to similar though not identical movements elsewhere. Now, if my quibbling over "is" is taken as a claim that fascism cannot be historically defined nor analyzed from then to the present, then I have done a disservice. On the other hand, if we can agree to situate it historically and then use the many many scholars to recognize that its roots are far deeper than the 20th century, and also to agree that subsequent movements share many if not most of those "radical and authoritarian nationalist" tenets, then the section on Variations and Subforms can incorporate and subsume the article's subheadings of: non-universal characteristics, demographics of race, gender, social darwinism, religion, and parafascisms today (not necessarily in that order). I place no further personal stake on this article other than to distinguish past and present forms. Thank you all for a most stimulating discussion. (Lisa/Lucy) 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 14:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following because it is ambiguous, unsupported by the citations and in fact contradicts most reliable sources: Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed "left, right and center," or not even in the spectrum at all. However another editor has re-inserted it. The sentence should not be re-inserted until it has been properly written and properly sourced. The Four Deuces ( talk) 20:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The same editor has reversed my deletion with the notation "three cites is enough for spectrum". The Four Deuces ( talk) 22:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
(out)If SOME historians disagree, then it is clear that historians disagree. It is the opposite of saying that all historians agree. And with seven cites now, of which several specifically refer to left, right and center, it is clearly fully cited. And agaoin, I am willing to add another seven here.
Collect (
talk)
21:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
By Arthur Meier Schlesinger, "Arthur M. , Jr." Schlesinger Published by Westview Press, 1988 ISBN 0306803232, 9780306803239 274 pages Collect ( talk) 22:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed "left, right and center," or not even in the spectrum at all. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]
Appears quite fully cited at this point. If you disagree, please post an RfC. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 15:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The sentence now reads:
However, please refer to WP:Undue: Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each....Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as a majority view. Most of the basis for the sentence comes from Lipset's 1960 essay in Political Man. Lipset was the only author to state that fascists could belong to either the left, right or center. Salazar in Portugal was an example of a right-wing fascist, while Peron in Argentina was an example of a left-wing fascist. But the editors of the article do not accept Salazar and Peron as fascists, and this theory is is not defended today. So the claim Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum is false.
Lipset's article is also the main source of fascism as centrism, which is where he placed Italian and German fascism. But again this is a minority view. so the dispute "whether fascism is left, right or center" is providing equal weight to mainstream and fringe views.
Incidentally of the 11 references that Collect provided, 3 refer to pages directly quoting Lipset. The majority of the other sources are quoted out of context or do not support the sentence. For example Collect quotes Illusions of Grandeur as stating "Fascism can be described as a sort of authoritarian centrism". But several lines later it says "It is more usual for fascism to be defined as a movement of the right...."
So please re-write the sentence to reflect neutrality. The Four Deuces ( talk) 20:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I searched for the word "not" in the article and could not find it. Could you please provide the quote and page number. The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently, the first sentence has only 11 refs. Is the sentence properly cited? Is the sentence not neutral? — Collect (via posting script) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
This is the current first sentence:
Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum, whether fascism is left, right or center, or even whether the political spectrum is properly applied to various fascist groups at all. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
Is the sentence worded in any non-neutral manner? Does it violate WP:UNDUE? Is it adequately sourced? Collect ( talk) 21:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The statement gives undue weight to the assertion that Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum. The only basis for the assertion that different fascists can occupy different places in the political spectrum is a 1960 article by Lipset
[28], which is indirectly cited four times in the footnotes. Whatever the validity of Lipset's theories, they should not be given undue weight.
Also, the sources do not support the assertion Historians do not agree...whether fascism is left, right or center, or even whether the political spectrum is properly applied to various fascist groups at all which gives equal weight to the four possible positions.
Below are comments on each of the twelve footnotes.
1. Social Science and Political Theory - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
2. The Fascism Reader - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
3. British Fascism - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V, provides no other example of fascism as of the center or left
4. Fascism in Europe - the quote in the footnote "historians uncertain about where to locate fascism in the political spectrum" leaves out the beginning of the phrase. It reads "have sometimes made historians uncertain about where to locate fascism in the political spectrum". It does not state that they placed fascism in different parts of the spectrum and uses the term right-wing throughout to describe fascism.
5. Fascism: Post-war fascisms - this reference goes to an article in the book by Bill White (neo-Nazi) about neofascism. I don't want to read his article but it is a primary source.
6. Illusions of grandeur - says "It is more usual for fascism to be defined as a movement ot the right...." (same page)
7. Sociology Responds to Fascism - says nothing about where historians place fascism
8. Latin fascist elites - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
9. Terrorism today - does not question fascism's position in the political spectrum and says: "The terrorists on the two political extremes of left and right are in truth apposites, more than opposites."
10. The birth of fascist ideology - the writer Zeev Sternhell has a minority opinion that Italian fascism began as a left-wing movement but by 1920 had begun to shift to the right (same page) and became right-wing when the Italian Fascist Party was finally formed in 1921.
11. The Vital Center - this book unequivocably considers fascism to be right-wing and the page that the link goes to actually has a chart where Fascism is listed under "Right".
12. The Social science encyclopedia - on the page preceding it states: "there has developed since the 1930s a broad tendency to refer to any form of right-wing authoritarian system that is not specifically socialist as fascist." Clearly this article groups fascism on the right, even if they struggle with other rightists.
The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sentence that The Four Deuces wants to delete has been a long standing consensus version. Among others, the most prominent scholars of fascism Stanley Payne, Roger Griffin, Zeev Sternhell and A. James Gregor don't agree with the placement of fascism on the right side of the political spectrum. -- Vision Thing -- 21:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you should give the dictionary definition first:
"fascism /fashiz’m/ noun 1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government. 2 extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. " [30] Phoenix of9 ( talk) 21:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
“ | The principles and organization of Fascists. Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.
1921 19th Cent. July 148 The Fascismo was born in the provinces, where the extremistic menace was stronger. 1922 Q. Rev. Jan. 148 A section of the Press..now veered completely round to the cause of Fascism. The Fascist terror increased in intensity. 1923 Contemp. Rev. Jan. 44 We do not want Fascismo in this country. Ibid. Nov. 557 Fascism in Germany will never be more than one of several factors. 1925 Weekly Westm. Gaz. 10 Jan. 320/2 The outrages which have been associated with Fascism have gradually alienated much of the support which it won two years ago. 1934 tr. K. Heiden's National Socialism xvii. 354 The electoral victories all over Europe with which the Labour Parties have replied to German Fascism. 1936 Discovery Dec. 378/1, I have strongly criticised modern education and the methods of handling youth generally as inculcating excessive respect for authority and thereby conducing to the growth of Fascism. 1939 A. COBBAN Dictatorship v. 124 In March 1919..Fascism was still..a revolutionary and socialist movement, hostile to the monarchy, to finance, and to parliamentary government, demanding social reform and workers' control, but separated from the other branches of the socialist movement by its intense nationalism. 1965 L. VENNEWITZ tr. Nolte's Three Faces Fascism II. ii. 87 Maurras was the first man in Europe who as a thinker and a politician drove conservatism beyond the limits dividing it from incipient fascism. 1971 Tablet 26 June 616/2 (title) The ghost of Fascism. DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2006 Fascism, n. depreciative (chiefly Brit.). In extended use (usu. with preceding modifying word): the advocacy of a particular viewpoint or practice in a manner perceived as intolerant or authoritarian. Cf. body fascism n. at BODY n. Additions, health fascism n. at HEALTH n. Additions. [1939 D. THOMAS Let. July (1987) 389, I think that to fight, for instance, the fascism of bad ideas by uniforming & regimenting good ones will be found, eventually, to be bad tactics.] 1973 Times 13 Oct. 14 There is a fundamental fascism of the left which is the real problem in the universities: they are theologically right, as they believe, and you are so wrong that you should even be denied the freedom to speak. 1974 B. HODDESON Porn People vii. 121/1 You get a sort of monosexual fascism that takes place, that says, ‘this is how you'll ball.’ 1994 Daily Tel. 20 Dec. 17/3 The new health 'n' safety fascism..has demanded measures on track and trains which could not have been envisaged at the time when the cost was first projected. 2003 Independent 4 Mar. 19/2 This hysterical response to the interbreeding of the ruddy duck with the protected white-headed duck reflects a rather puerile, ‘anoracky’ fascism, and is misguided on several counts. |
” |
Phoenix of9 ( talk) 01:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:RS is fairly explicit -- dictionaries are not "reliable sources" for articles. "Tertiary sources such as compendia, encyclopedias, textbooks, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." Collect ( talk) 01:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
You said here and in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard that I removed many sources. As I said, please retract false accusations. Phoenix of9 ( talk) 02:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Uninvolved editors opinion
OED is a reliable source for the common meaning of a word, which is what this kind of article should be opening with. Next question. Rd232 talk 17:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
(editconflict)But if there is that much arguing then I'm not sure how you can justify boiling it down to one particular POV. If there is so many varied views, then the lead should reflect that. Soxwon ( talk) 20:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
(out) Books citing Mussolini are clearly secondary sources, and should well outrank unsigned tertiary sources in any article. As for Bill White -- he has exceedingly little to do with this article, and I do not know why it is important to mention him so often. Might you tell me where he is cited in this article? Thanks! Collect ( talk) 10:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
(out) Apparent consensus there is that OED is fine for stating historical common usage of a word in English, but not for a definition of a word as far as being acceptable to specialists in the field, or for detailed discussion in an article on WP, and not for handling any meanings outside English of a word. Collect ( talk) 22:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) Not just "one writer." The OED shows how the word was used, but does not claim to provide any specialized defiitions of the words. In the case at hand, we have cites that no single definition is used. Collect ( talk) 00:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether I'm missing the point here (please tell me if you think that I am), but if the question is "what do academics think about whether fascism is right wing?", then wouldn't articles by academics (eg Lipsat) where they set out an opionion be primary sources with regard to the question at hand? The probem then being that no single primary source can answer the general question "what do acadmics think..?"., only the more specific question "what does this academic think..?". This is one of the reasons that primary sources should be treated with caution on WP. The problem could be resolved by using secondary sources, such as literature reviews, standard textbooks etc. Thanks. -- 78.148.14.222 ( talk) 21:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect: are you able to explain what makes you think that it is WP practice for the words of academics to be automatically given the status of being "secondary sources"? Because I'm really not sure about that. WP:RS doesn't seem to address the issue and, although I appreciate it won't settle the matter, the WP article on Primary sources says: "In the history of ideas or intellectual history, the main primary sources are books, essays and letters written by intellectuals". Furthermore, if academic work in this case is always a secondary source, then that must mean that nothing is a primary source, which surely can't be right.
Different historians do have different opinions. Obviously true with regard to a range of topics. But it seems to me that the issue is how the difference of opinion should be portrayed in the case in hand. Lipsat's essay appears to be a note of dissent which pretty much proves the existence of a consensus against him. It may be worth a quick mention. But instead, it seems to have been used to give the impression that this is a question on which the academic community is totally divided.
Whilst I don't think dictionaries and encylopaedias are useful as sources on this question, it does seem to me that they have a use to benchmark our work here. There's a simple test, I think, that if the contents of a WP article are significantly at odds with what all the world's reference works say, then there is a good chance that something has gone wrong.
BTW, I'm the same anon as posted just above. -- 78.150.144.169 ( talk) 23:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The article does appear to say something about the ratio of opinion, just not directly. It reads as if there is considerable debate on the issue. It creates a lack of clarity and errs by the omission of giving making no reference to any consensus (which very clearly does exist). I'm not proposing to rewrite anything. But I can't see where WP:RS says what you claim it does. Give me the quote and I'll concede the point. It is clear from WP:NOR that at least some scholarly opinion counts as "primary source" (eg "original philosophical works", which is close to what we are dealing with here). -- 78.150.144.169 ( talk) 23:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
On the first point, I am not questioning the credibility of any of the sources. On the second, I'm not making any particular case for using dictionaries or encyclopadias as sources.
On the third point, I think you are just mistaken. You have produced a non sequitur. What is suggested by the policy is that "hitorical research" constitutes a secondary source. But the question is not primarily one about historical research. Defining a concept such as "fascism" is a question of political science or philosophy, and there are no documents from which direct information about the question can be drawn other than the writings of academics and intellectuals. These are out primary sources.
The writings of academics on a particular matter of opinion (as opposed to fact) and not "at least one step removed" when the issue to be addressed is of the form "what are the atttitudes of academics to the matter of opinion x", so they do not fall under the definition of "secondary sources".
The section is effectively a literature review undetaken by wikipedians, and I think it is OR, because, in simple terms, a user or users have effectively sought to answer a question implied by the section heading by researching the question themselves, rather than by relying on research conducted by others. The preferable way to approach the section would be to base it on secondary sources (published literature reviews, academic textbooks) and then introduce primary sources in a way that doesn't change the basic tenor of the section. As far as I can see, this would serve the purpose and reduce the possibility of bias. I can't think of a downside, so why would there be any objection? -- 89.242.191.100 ( talk) 23:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Surely you can't be suggesting that currently published politics textbooks are "fairly uniform in denying the applicability of "political spectrum" entirely"??? -- 82.69.202.14 ( talk) 15:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, the first point you make is, I think, very clearly untrue. I would agree that some writers on the subject will make the (quite sensible) point that the l-r spectrum is not unproblematic, but that's a slightly different matter. Plus, i'm guessing that you're still proposing to prefer primary sources. Acamdeic opinion that boils down to the statment "fascism is a right wing ideology" being viewed as either false or not properly meaningful, whilst probably not unsustainable, is very much a fringe view. Do you think you'd be able to provide evidence of it being something other than a fringe view (eg something like a textbook, as discussed above)? -- 78.144.216.191 ( talk) 21:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) Any statement which synthesizes multiple points of view must be attributed to a published source. In other words, before a Wikipedia article can say "historians disagree on where to place Fascism in the political spectrum", we need a published source which says exactly that – not a Wikipedia editor who has conducted his own analysis of several sources and who has concluded that the sources indicate that historians disagree. It really doesn't matter whether the analysis is correct; if it's made by a Wikipedia editor rather than a reliable source, it can't be used. WP:Verifiability and the subsection WP:SYN are very clear on this. It's even stated outright in the very first sentence of WP:Syn: "Do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources."
End of story. Any synthesizing statement must be attributed to an actual source in which that specific, explicit synthesis has already been published. And once you have such a source, you only need one. A dozen references, none of which actually make the direct claim they are being cited to support, are not acceptable. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 23:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This appears to me to make things clear: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Consensus -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC
Here is a source I would propose to use in the opening of the section: http://books.google.com/books?id=tP2wXl5nzboC&pg=PA79#PPA79,M1 I would propose sticking closely to the wording of the source, so something like:
Please note that the last sentence is perhaps not strongly supported by the source cited. However, I think it is true and further support for it could easily be found if need be.
Overall, I think that these three sentences would make a good first paragraph for the Political Spectrum section. Cheers. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 20:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
"Most" is not OR because it is directly supported by the source given: It is normally seen as "extreme right".... Unless you want to argue that "is normally seen" denotes something radically different from "most describe as". You could try, I suppose.
The important thing is the statement in the source regarding the consensus on the issue. The fact that other views are acknowedged within the same book is not really relevant, because none of these are directly about the consensus, and they don't therefore negate the statement at the beginning of the conclusion on page 79. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 21:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
But this isn't a question of weighing one thing against the other and deciding which wins. We are dealing with two citable facts which are not mutually exclusive: 1) that there is a consensus on this issue; 2) that there are views which dissent from that consenus. The appropriate thing to do is to say both of those things in the section. Logically, stating the consensus should come first. But after that, I'm certainly not opposed to you or other editors citing other sources. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 21:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
No it doesn't. It makes no mention of there being a consensus, and gives the impression that the academic community is confused. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 22:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Among academics, there is no consensus. Nor does your cite claim that there is, as it clearly cites the disagreements about even the applicability of a "political spectrum" here. Collect ( talk) 23:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Which sources are you talking about? -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 23:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The Google source says "the contributors (to book x) disagree about what kinds of groups are to be labelled right". But it doesn't say anything about whether any of these groups are fascist, so I don't see how it is relevant. It also isn't about academics generally, just about a particular book. And so on, I imagine. With the offline source, it would be helpful if you were to type out the sentence, along with the sentences either side, to ensure that context can be taken account of -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 00:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
IP: the claim that there was anything left-wing about fascism is problematic. The claims made were that they did not restore monarchy, established church and aristocracy, that they used left-wing rhetoric and that a minority of their leaders were former leftists. The same arguments could be used to argue that the Reagan administration was left-wing. The Four Deuces ( talk) 05:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
An editor insists on this in the lede. The cite he gives is [21] which says on page 266 that "collectivism" is the key element in Communist and Fascist ideology. He asserts that the fasces in and of itself represents collectivism (interesting since it was on the US dime all through WW II). I guess the US was officially collectivist as a result <g>. I asked him to come here and make his case for this edit which he has insisted on through multiple reverts. Should he not do so, I would ask for the opinions of others whether "collectivist" should be added to radical, authoritarian and nationalist. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 20:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
(out) It took a lot of work to get consensus on the current wording. Feel free to do a request for comment on any other version use [22] to make an RFC which wil be auto-posted to WP:RFC/A, but absent any new consensus forming, I suggest we stick with this as relatively clear and succinct. Else we will end up with the fifteen cite concatenation of the past. Collect ( talk) 15:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Mussolini himself described fascism as collectivist and anti-individualist. That we're having this dispute is bizarre. Introman ( talk) 21:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
(out) and perhaps you will note that the EB quote you give does not back your claims. (EB is tertiary source by the way) Collect ( talk) 01:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to establish what "collectivist" means in fascist philosophy. There are two sorts of collectivism: political or social collectivism, and economic collectivism. Fascism is definintely collectivist in social nature; however, economically, it strongly supports private property and the free market. It's the economy that's up to debate, in my opinion. -- UNSC Trooper ( talk) 09:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Since corporatism is the primary economic manifestation of fascism and common to all fascist systems, I don't understand why some people here want to delete it. Please explain. PhilLiberty ( talk) 16:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Corporatism is mentioned in passing, with very dubious claims. I don't believe the claim that "German Nazism officially rejected it." There's a reference to a book with no quote. I have a quote saying "corporatism was adopted in Italy and Germany during the 1930s" contradicing that. 2. Name a fascist state without corporatism. I think corporatism is a necessary condition of fascism. In economic texts, fascism means corporatism. 3. Right, but we should add the important defining aspects of fascism, and corporatism is every bit as important as nationalism. 4. Corporatism is a main point of fascism. You don't understand fascism unless you understand its economic arrangement. PhilLiberty ( talk) 04:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=tP2wXl5nzboC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=Noel+O'Sullivan+fascism&source=bl&ots=lpGcBoM-as&sig=YBJ64Ruip0c7vPlVh4ndB9PSb8M&hl=en&ei=DPDlSeeyBsSrtgeBk-yXAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA158,M1 Hitler's economic policies took a backseat to racial profiling. Those who insisted on economic corporatism were murdered. The Italians used corporatism, in the sense that any of the three conflicting views of economics presented by Mussolini were labeled corporatism. In essence, both talked about corporatism, but instead did many things that conflicted under the label of corporatism, which is what the text states. Soxwon ( talk) 14:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
"Corporatism in this sense was obviously just a formula for warmongering," plz explain how this fits? Soxwon ( talk) 16:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm still not convinced that corporatism is a defining feature of all fascist regimes, especially economically, when you have the Nazis killing those who advocated the economic portion of corporatism (George Strasser was one such victim) and Mussolini changing its meaning to fit the situation. It meant first a new social order, merging the classes, then a new political order to keep discipline (and in this interpretation, he stated it was tied to no one political system and thus doesn't seem to be a part of fascism), then finally a new form of democracy (which conveniently allowed him to take over Parlaiment). All this shows it was really just a convenient term to further his agenda. If Italy can't keep it's role straight, and Germany de-emphasized its role in the economic sphere, how can you claim it's a tenent of ALL fascist economies? Soxwon ( talk) 18:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
What happened? Someone found a single source sympathetic to corporatism, wherein the author made an ad hoc addition to the definition of corporatism in his book to exclude fascist regimes. This is ridiculous. One might note that there exist people who deny that fascism is corporatist, but simply excluding a consensus defining characteristic is not right. PhilLiberty ( talk) 12:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, just wandered in here and was puzzled by the NPOV tag. Is this the discussion in relation that?-- Happysomeone ( talk) 23:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Despite leading experts on fascism saying that corporatism is a defining feature, such as Noel O'Sullivan and Aristotle A. Kallis quoted above, two editors want to leave corporatism out of the lede. That is what this particular discussion is about. This just in: Russia Today Interviews Gerald Celente. Celente says:
America is going from what used to be the major capitalistic country in the world of free market – a crusader – into what Mussolini would have called fascism: the merger of state and corporate powers. So it is not socialism as people believe, it is socialism’s egalitarianism. It’s not communism where the state controls monopolies – it’s fascism, plain and simple. The merger of corporate and government powers. State-controlled capitalism is called fascism, and fascism has come to America in broad daylight. But they’re feeding them it in little bits and pieces. First AIG was too big to fail. Mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were too big to fail. Banks too big to fail and auto companies. And now we give money to the people that make the auto parts. And now there’s talk about the technology companies, wanting their piece of the action. The merger of state and government is called fascism. Take it from Mussolini; he knew a thing or two about it.
The two editors seem to want to censor out this aspect of fascism, for who knows what reason. PhilLiberty ( talk) 21:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone at all in favor of the bloated lead we now have? It is, IMHO, nearly the worst one we have had, but the proponent is pursuing a claim that I am specifically editwarring against him -- so if others do not apprecuiate this sort of edit, please make it clear. Collect ( talk) 02:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps searching for a "generic" or consensual, or all-purpose definition of fascism is counter-productive to the authors here and to readers. I don't at all regard Collect's drafts or the other authors as attempting something so simplistic, yet as with the "political spectrum" thread, the discussion keeps coming around to examples and counterexamples to try to illuminate the "core principles". I am reminded that in Michel Foucault's "Society Must Be Defended" (1977), he writes: "the nonanalysis of fascism is one of the most important political facts of the last thirty years". The above talk and the WP article itself takes me a long way in trying to understand fascism historically. Perhaps the analysis flounders on competing economic/political/ideological/historical frameworks that simply aren't up to the task. If I am to use the term "fascism" or "fascist" historically and analytically, then it helps to know that it is a series of historically contingent movements, alliances, and appropriations which were locally very useful. 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 23:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
As I reread the discussion under the "lede", I am again struck by the confoundedness of defining fascism. Counfounded because the evidence offered in favor of a "generic" definition is always grounded in historically specific examples. I do not propose that we abandon a worthy endeavor to try to understand it, nor should we fail to muster reliable scholarship for this purpose. As an introduction to the article, however, I was trying to suggest, historically, fascism has been extraordinarily resilient and pliable (or like jelly). The discussions under numerous headings throughout the talk (e.g., religion, gender, nationalism, statism) suggest that fascism must be understood in its various historical and geo-political incarnations. I brought up Foucault before because this discussion has required people to revisit a whole host of central concepts (liberalism, war, power) before the discussion can progress. That is important to acknowledge, and when the nuances of the discussion are lost, then subsequent analyses suffer. 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 13:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)Lisa (I apologize for failing to sign my previous comment except as assigned as "User talk:68.42.27.11".
I hope this is satisfactory to everyone. PhilLiberty ( talk) 23:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Historians and political scientists disagree on a precise definition, however; some would omit one or more of the preceding themes, while others would add many more. [1]
Someone keeps changing the intro phrase to one that is disconnected. Fascism is essentially a "radical and authoritarian nationalist ideology" as said by four sources. The SUBJECT and PURPOSE of fascism = nationalism, the MEANS to achieve its subject and purpose = radicalism + authoritarianism. But it is not a radical AND authoritarian AND nationalist ideology, because that divides the purpose in three, it is radical and authoritarian in pursuing its nationalist goals. Now I urge the person to please consult the discussion page before reverting this again because a minor change of words can alter the entire meaning of a sentence.-- R-41 ( talk) 04:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Let me weigh in here one more time. I have reread pertinent chunks of the article and the discussion, and I realize that this discussion has occurred many times, frustrating all concerned, and I apologize for that. Taking my cue from The Four Deuces, Soxwon, and Mdw0 who have picked up the concern, at the end of long discussions of corporatism, collectivism, and the unwieldy introduction that Collect identifies as one of the article's weaknesses, I hope my comment will help. In two key places in the article, the editors have made very clear that what fascism was and is have been hotly contested by scholars. These important qualifiers occur in the Definition and in the section on Variations and Subforms. When I reread the article's introduction, however, fascism appears as a timeless "is" before it slips into an historically specific example in the sixth sentence. As I have tried to argue, perhaps unsuccessfully, there was, indeed, a factual, historical, and verifiable emergence of fascism. What it was and how it influenced and was influenced by contemporaneous events and forces is supremely important. It was a "radical and authoritarian nationalist ideology", so I adhere to R-41's phrasing and reasoning. I only object to the "is"--as the present tense implies that fascism is an essential and therefore timeless form of polis.
Readers should be able read the article and come away being able to separate the perjorative sense of fascism and its overuse, from the historical and analytic sense that allows comparison to similar though not identical movements elsewhere. Now, if my quibbling over "is" is taken as a claim that fascism cannot be historically defined nor analyzed from then to the present, then I have done a disservice. On the other hand, if we can agree to situate it historically and then use the many many scholars to recognize that its roots are far deeper than the 20th century, and also to agree that subsequent movements share many if not most of those "radical and authoritarian nationalist" tenets, then the section on Variations and Subforms can incorporate and subsume the article's subheadings of: non-universal characteristics, demographics of race, gender, social darwinism, religion, and parafascisms today (not necessarily in that order). I place no further personal stake on this article other than to distinguish past and present forms. Thank you all for a most stimulating discussion. (Lisa/Lucy) 68.42.27.11 ( talk) 14:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following because it is ambiguous, unsupported by the citations and in fact contradicts most reliable sources: Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed "left, right and center," or not even in the spectrum at all. However another editor has re-inserted it. The sentence should not be re-inserted until it has been properly written and properly sourced. The Four Deuces ( talk) 20:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The same editor has reversed my deletion with the notation "three cites is enough for spectrum". The Four Deuces ( talk) 22:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
(out)If SOME historians disagree, then it is clear that historians disagree. It is the opposite of saying that all historians agree. And with seven cites now, of which several specifically refer to left, right and center, it is clearly fully cited. And agaoin, I am willing to add another seven here.
Collect (
talk)
21:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
By Arthur Meier Schlesinger, "Arthur M. , Jr." Schlesinger Published by Westview Press, 1988 ISBN 0306803232, 9780306803239 274 pages Collect ( talk) 22:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed "left, right and center," or not even in the spectrum at all. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]
Appears quite fully cited at this point. If you disagree, please post an RfC. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 15:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The sentence now reads:
However, please refer to WP:Undue: Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each....Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as a majority view. Most of the basis for the sentence comes from Lipset's 1960 essay in Political Man. Lipset was the only author to state that fascists could belong to either the left, right or center. Salazar in Portugal was an example of a right-wing fascist, while Peron in Argentina was an example of a left-wing fascist. But the editors of the article do not accept Salazar and Peron as fascists, and this theory is is not defended today. So the claim Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum is false.
Lipset's article is also the main source of fascism as centrism, which is where he placed Italian and German fascism. But again this is a minority view. so the dispute "whether fascism is left, right or center" is providing equal weight to mainstream and fringe views.
Incidentally of the 11 references that Collect provided, 3 refer to pages directly quoting Lipset. The majority of the other sources are quoted out of context or do not support the sentence. For example Collect quotes Illusions of Grandeur as stating "Fascism can be described as a sort of authoritarian centrism". But several lines later it says "It is more usual for fascism to be defined as a movement of the right...."
So please re-write the sentence to reflect neutrality. The Four Deuces ( talk) 20:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I searched for the word "not" in the article and could not find it. Could you please provide the quote and page number. The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently, the first sentence has only 11 refs. Is the sentence properly cited? Is the sentence not neutral? — Collect (via posting script) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
This is the current first sentence:
Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum, whether fascism is left, right or center, or even whether the political spectrum is properly applied to various fascist groups at all. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
Is the sentence worded in any non-neutral manner? Does it violate WP:UNDUE? Is it adequately sourced? Collect ( talk) 21:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The statement gives undue weight to the assertion that Historians do not agree on the place of all fascists on the political spectrum. The only basis for the assertion that different fascists can occupy different places in the political spectrum is a 1960 article by Lipset
[28], which is indirectly cited four times in the footnotes. Whatever the validity of Lipset's theories, they should not be given undue weight.
Also, the sources do not support the assertion Historians do not agree...whether fascism is left, right or center, or even whether the political spectrum is properly applied to various fascist groups at all which gives equal weight to the four possible positions.
Below are comments on each of the twelve footnotes.
1. Social Science and Political Theory - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
2. The Fascism Reader - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
3. British Fascism - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V, provides no other example of fascism as of the center or left
4. Fascism in Europe - the quote in the footnote "historians uncertain about where to locate fascism in the political spectrum" leaves out the beginning of the phrase. It reads "have sometimes made historians uncertain about where to locate fascism in the political spectrum". It does not state that they placed fascism in different parts of the spectrum and uses the term right-wing throughout to describe fascism.
5. Fascism: Post-war fascisms - this reference goes to an article in the book by Bill White (neo-Nazi) about neofascism. I don't want to read his article but it is a primary source.
6. Illusions of grandeur - says "It is more usual for fascism to be defined as a movement ot the right...." (same page)
7. Sociology Responds to Fascism - says nothing about where historians place fascism
8. Latin fascist elites - refers to S. M. Lipset, Political Man ( 1960), ch. V
9. Terrorism today - does not question fascism's position in the political spectrum and says: "The terrorists on the two political extremes of left and right are in truth apposites, more than opposites."
10. The birth of fascist ideology - the writer Zeev Sternhell has a minority opinion that Italian fascism began as a left-wing movement but by 1920 had begun to shift to the right (same page) and became right-wing when the Italian Fascist Party was finally formed in 1921.
11. The Vital Center - this book unequivocably considers fascism to be right-wing and the page that the link goes to actually has a chart where Fascism is listed under "Right".
12. The Social science encyclopedia - on the page preceding it states: "there has developed since the 1930s a broad tendency to refer to any form of right-wing authoritarian system that is not specifically socialist as fascist." Clearly this article groups fascism on the right, even if they struggle with other rightists.
The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sentence that The Four Deuces wants to delete has been a long standing consensus version. Among others, the most prominent scholars of fascism Stanley Payne, Roger Griffin, Zeev Sternhell and A. James Gregor don't agree with the placement of fascism on the right side of the political spectrum. -- Vision Thing -- 21:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you should give the dictionary definition first:
"fascism /fashiz’m/ noun 1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government. 2 extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. " [30] Phoenix of9 ( talk) 21:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
“ | The principles and organization of Fascists. Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.
1921 19th Cent. July 148 The Fascismo was born in the provinces, where the extremistic menace was stronger. 1922 Q. Rev. Jan. 148 A section of the Press..now veered completely round to the cause of Fascism. The Fascist terror increased in intensity. 1923 Contemp. Rev. Jan. 44 We do not want Fascismo in this country. Ibid. Nov. 557 Fascism in Germany will never be more than one of several factors. 1925 Weekly Westm. Gaz. 10 Jan. 320/2 The outrages which have been associated with Fascism have gradually alienated much of the support which it won two years ago. 1934 tr. K. Heiden's National Socialism xvii. 354 The electoral victories all over Europe with which the Labour Parties have replied to German Fascism. 1936 Discovery Dec. 378/1, I have strongly criticised modern education and the methods of handling youth generally as inculcating excessive respect for authority and thereby conducing to the growth of Fascism. 1939 A. COBBAN Dictatorship v. 124 In March 1919..Fascism was still..a revolutionary and socialist movement, hostile to the monarchy, to finance, and to parliamentary government, demanding social reform and workers' control, but separated from the other branches of the socialist movement by its intense nationalism. 1965 L. VENNEWITZ tr. Nolte's Three Faces Fascism II. ii. 87 Maurras was the first man in Europe who as a thinker and a politician drove conservatism beyond the limits dividing it from incipient fascism. 1971 Tablet 26 June 616/2 (title) The ghost of Fascism. DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2006 Fascism, n. depreciative (chiefly Brit.). In extended use (usu. with preceding modifying word): the advocacy of a particular viewpoint or practice in a manner perceived as intolerant or authoritarian. Cf. body fascism n. at BODY n. Additions, health fascism n. at HEALTH n. Additions. [1939 D. THOMAS Let. July (1987) 389, I think that to fight, for instance, the fascism of bad ideas by uniforming & regimenting good ones will be found, eventually, to be bad tactics.] 1973 Times 13 Oct. 14 There is a fundamental fascism of the left which is the real problem in the universities: they are theologically right, as they believe, and you are so wrong that you should even be denied the freedom to speak. 1974 B. HODDESON Porn People vii. 121/1 You get a sort of monosexual fascism that takes place, that says, ‘this is how you'll ball.’ 1994 Daily Tel. 20 Dec. 17/3 The new health 'n' safety fascism..has demanded measures on track and trains which could not have been envisaged at the time when the cost was first projected. 2003 Independent 4 Mar. 19/2 This hysterical response to the interbreeding of the ruddy duck with the protected white-headed duck reflects a rather puerile, ‘anoracky’ fascism, and is misguided on several counts. |
” |
Phoenix of9 ( talk) 01:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:RS is fairly explicit -- dictionaries are not "reliable sources" for articles. "Tertiary sources such as compendia, encyclopedias, textbooks, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." Collect ( talk) 01:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
You said here and in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard that I removed many sources. As I said, please retract false accusations. Phoenix of9 ( talk) 02:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Uninvolved editors opinion
OED is a reliable source for the common meaning of a word, which is what this kind of article should be opening with. Next question. Rd232 talk 17:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
(editconflict)But if there is that much arguing then I'm not sure how you can justify boiling it down to one particular POV. If there is so many varied views, then the lead should reflect that. Soxwon ( talk) 20:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
(out) Books citing Mussolini are clearly secondary sources, and should well outrank unsigned tertiary sources in any article. As for Bill White -- he has exceedingly little to do with this article, and I do not know why it is important to mention him so often. Might you tell me where he is cited in this article? Thanks! Collect ( talk) 10:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
(out) Apparent consensus there is that OED is fine for stating historical common usage of a word in English, but not for a definition of a word as far as being acceptable to specialists in the field, or for detailed discussion in an article on WP, and not for handling any meanings outside English of a word. Collect ( talk) 22:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) Not just "one writer." The OED shows how the word was used, but does not claim to provide any specialized defiitions of the words. In the case at hand, we have cites that no single definition is used. Collect ( talk) 00:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether I'm missing the point here (please tell me if you think that I am), but if the question is "what do academics think about whether fascism is right wing?", then wouldn't articles by academics (eg Lipsat) where they set out an opionion be primary sources with regard to the question at hand? The probem then being that no single primary source can answer the general question "what do acadmics think..?"., only the more specific question "what does this academic think..?". This is one of the reasons that primary sources should be treated with caution on WP. The problem could be resolved by using secondary sources, such as literature reviews, standard textbooks etc. Thanks. -- 78.148.14.222 ( talk) 21:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect: are you able to explain what makes you think that it is WP practice for the words of academics to be automatically given the status of being "secondary sources"? Because I'm really not sure about that. WP:RS doesn't seem to address the issue and, although I appreciate it won't settle the matter, the WP article on Primary sources says: "In the history of ideas or intellectual history, the main primary sources are books, essays and letters written by intellectuals". Furthermore, if academic work in this case is always a secondary source, then that must mean that nothing is a primary source, which surely can't be right.
Different historians do have different opinions. Obviously true with regard to a range of topics. But it seems to me that the issue is how the difference of opinion should be portrayed in the case in hand. Lipsat's essay appears to be a note of dissent which pretty much proves the existence of a consensus against him. It may be worth a quick mention. But instead, it seems to have been used to give the impression that this is a question on which the academic community is totally divided.
Whilst I don't think dictionaries and encylopaedias are useful as sources on this question, it does seem to me that they have a use to benchmark our work here. There's a simple test, I think, that if the contents of a WP article are significantly at odds with what all the world's reference works say, then there is a good chance that something has gone wrong.
BTW, I'm the same anon as posted just above. -- 78.150.144.169 ( talk) 23:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The article does appear to say something about the ratio of opinion, just not directly. It reads as if there is considerable debate on the issue. It creates a lack of clarity and errs by the omission of giving making no reference to any consensus (which very clearly does exist). I'm not proposing to rewrite anything. But I can't see where WP:RS says what you claim it does. Give me the quote and I'll concede the point. It is clear from WP:NOR that at least some scholarly opinion counts as "primary source" (eg "original philosophical works", which is close to what we are dealing with here). -- 78.150.144.169 ( talk) 23:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
On the first point, I am not questioning the credibility of any of the sources. On the second, I'm not making any particular case for using dictionaries or encyclopadias as sources.
On the third point, I think you are just mistaken. You have produced a non sequitur. What is suggested by the policy is that "hitorical research" constitutes a secondary source. But the question is not primarily one about historical research. Defining a concept such as "fascism" is a question of political science or philosophy, and there are no documents from which direct information about the question can be drawn other than the writings of academics and intellectuals. These are out primary sources.
The writings of academics on a particular matter of opinion (as opposed to fact) and not "at least one step removed" when the issue to be addressed is of the form "what are the atttitudes of academics to the matter of opinion x", so they do not fall under the definition of "secondary sources".
The section is effectively a literature review undetaken by wikipedians, and I think it is OR, because, in simple terms, a user or users have effectively sought to answer a question implied by the section heading by researching the question themselves, rather than by relying on research conducted by others. The preferable way to approach the section would be to base it on secondary sources (published literature reviews, academic textbooks) and then introduce primary sources in a way that doesn't change the basic tenor of the section. As far as I can see, this would serve the purpose and reduce the possibility of bias. I can't think of a downside, so why would there be any objection? -- 89.242.191.100 ( talk) 23:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Surely you can't be suggesting that currently published politics textbooks are "fairly uniform in denying the applicability of "political spectrum" entirely"??? -- 82.69.202.14 ( talk) 15:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Collect, the first point you make is, I think, very clearly untrue. I would agree that some writers on the subject will make the (quite sensible) point that the l-r spectrum is not unproblematic, but that's a slightly different matter. Plus, i'm guessing that you're still proposing to prefer primary sources. Acamdeic opinion that boils down to the statment "fascism is a right wing ideology" being viewed as either false or not properly meaningful, whilst probably not unsustainable, is very much a fringe view. Do you think you'd be able to provide evidence of it being something other than a fringe view (eg something like a textbook, as discussed above)? -- 78.144.216.191 ( talk) 21:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) Any statement which synthesizes multiple points of view must be attributed to a published source. In other words, before a Wikipedia article can say "historians disagree on where to place Fascism in the political spectrum", we need a published source which says exactly that – not a Wikipedia editor who has conducted his own analysis of several sources and who has concluded that the sources indicate that historians disagree. It really doesn't matter whether the analysis is correct; if it's made by a Wikipedia editor rather than a reliable source, it can't be used. WP:Verifiability and the subsection WP:SYN are very clear on this. It's even stated outright in the very first sentence of WP:Syn: "Do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources."
End of story. Any synthesizing statement must be attributed to an actual source in which that specific, explicit synthesis has already been published. And once you have such a source, you only need one. A dozen references, none of which actually make the direct claim they are being cited to support, are not acceptable. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 23:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This appears to me to make things clear: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Consensus -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC
Here is a source I would propose to use in the opening of the section: http://books.google.com/books?id=tP2wXl5nzboC&pg=PA79#PPA79,M1 I would propose sticking closely to the wording of the source, so something like:
Please note that the last sentence is perhaps not strongly supported by the source cited. However, I think it is true and further support for it could easily be found if need be.
Overall, I think that these three sentences would make a good first paragraph for the Political Spectrum section. Cheers. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 20:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
"Most" is not OR because it is directly supported by the source given: It is normally seen as "extreme right".... Unless you want to argue that "is normally seen" denotes something radically different from "most describe as". You could try, I suppose.
The important thing is the statement in the source regarding the consensus on the issue. The fact that other views are acknowedged within the same book is not really relevant, because none of these are directly about the consensus, and they don't therefore negate the statement at the beginning of the conclusion on page 79. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 21:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
But this isn't a question of weighing one thing against the other and deciding which wins. We are dealing with two citable facts which are not mutually exclusive: 1) that there is a consensus on this issue; 2) that there are views which dissent from that consenus. The appropriate thing to do is to say both of those things in the section. Logically, stating the consensus should come first. But after that, I'm certainly not opposed to you or other editors citing other sources. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 21:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
No it doesn't. It makes no mention of there being a consensus, and gives the impression that the academic community is confused. -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 22:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Among academics, there is no consensus. Nor does your cite claim that there is, as it clearly cites the disagreements about even the applicability of a "political spectrum" here. Collect ( talk) 23:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Which sources are you talking about? -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 23:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The Google source says "the contributors (to book x) disagree about what kinds of groups are to be labelled right". But it doesn't say anything about whether any of these groups are fascist, so I don't see how it is relevant. It also isn't about academics generally, just about a particular book. And so on, I imagine. With the offline source, it would be helpful if you were to type out the sentence, along with the sentences either side, to ensure that context can be taken account of -- 89.241.135.133 ( talk) 00:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
IP: the claim that there was anything left-wing about fascism is problematic. The claims made were that they did not restore monarchy, established church and aristocracy, that they used left-wing rhetoric and that a minority of their leaders were former leftists. The same arguments could be used to argue that the Reagan administration was left-wing. The Four Deuces ( talk) 05:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)