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This page has grown long from time to time and topical subsections have been pulled out and new pages created. Please do not complain about information missing from this page until you have explored the Fascism Template pages. Weaving links to existing pages or adding text with pointers to longer discussions is both appropriate and useful.-- Cberlet 21:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
From the "Positions on Religion" section:
Nazis arrested and killed thousands of Catholic clergy (18% of the priests in Poland were killed), eventually consigning thousands of them to concentration camps (2600 died in Dachau alone).[125] Although Jews were obviously the greatest and primary target, Hitler also sent Roman Catholics to concentration camps along with the Jews and killed 3 million Catholic Poles along with three million Jewish Pole.
Wasn't the persecution of millions of Poles mostly motivated by the Nazi supremacist ideology, not because these Poles were Catholic? I would also think that the persecution of members of the clergy was to kill people who had leadership roles to render Polish society powerless. The Nazis did persecute some upstanding Catholics that criticized them in Germany as well, but early on struck a (now very controversial) deal with the Vatican, the Reichskonkordat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevo2001 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why this sentence is here:
"fascists supported revolutionary politics, and fascists like Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler used leftist political terms such as "proletariat" and "bourgeois" to describe society. "
"proletariat" and "bourgeois" are not leftist political terms! If one is associating them with Marx (who didn't invent said words) then they would be right-ist (very conservative) not very liberal. -- Russ Frank 16:11, 02 August 2008 (UTC)
In the listed elements of fascism is "opposition to laissez faire capitalism", and the references given are the following:
Could the text for these sources be provided for independent review? I have seen no evidence that fascists opposed free market capitalism and did they not ally themselves with them? -- Jfrascencio 02:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
We fascists do not trust the market to take care of things. The market can operate to an extent, but state must make sure resources are distributed in an equitable manner and make sure that workers aren't being exploited. We support minimum wage laws, welfare system, laws against usury, etc. That's what fascism is all about. The "invisible hand" just doesn't work. Billy Ego 03:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Now how about some text from the source that is alleged to say that "most" scholars see it as on the political right or allied with right-wing movements? The source given in the article is John Hoffman and Paul Graham. Introduction to Political Theory. Pearson 2006, p. 288. ISBN 0-582-47373-X Billy Ego 16:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascist economy centers on war production. Since it has no interest in the welfare of the masses of people and prefers to depress wages of workers and farmers and lower their standard of living, goods for popular consumption are of secondary importance
— Facts and Fascism by George Seldes, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/George_Seldes/Facts_and_Fascism.html
-- Jfrascencio 05:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, fascist/Nazi governments did regulate the economy and have a welfare state, but so did capitalist democratic governments. Most governments in so-called capitalist countries have placed restrictions on the economy, have used government spending to boost certain sectors of the economy, have expected some sacrifices from its citizens for the common good, and have set up programs to help the needy. This is especially true during wartime or economic downturns. If that translated into anti-capitalism, then I guess that means the US, the UK and similar non-fascist/non-communist countries are anti-capitalist too. I have seen no evidence that fascist Italy or Nazi Germany were any more opposed to laissez fair capitalism than those two Western capitalist democracies and other similar countries. There have been very few countries that have been laissez faire capitalist in the true sense of the term. Spylab 23:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism is the same capitalism based on nazism and totalitarism. Communism is the fight for freedom and against the slavery imposed by capitalists (opposite to capitalism). Socialism is the middle way ideology, that is it combines the best qualities of both (no monopoly and no private big corporations). Liberalism is the same capitalism based on free exploitation without government involvment (or some rules against free exploitation). Capitalism is the base of all evel on our earth. All wars before communism was caused by this ideology when a small group of individuals takes all profit of work and the vaste majority are sheer slaves. Monarchy is the same capitalism ruled by dynasties.
This is given:
As a reference to this:
Many illustrations of this mechanism come to mind. One is the fact that Hitler found electoral support among voters who normally voted for parties of the center, and more generally the fact that fascism can be interpreted with some degree of plausibility as "an extremism of the center" (see, for examaple, Kershaw 1992, Sternhell 1978). In that case, what could motivate the middle classes is their fear of the consequences of the adoption of some economic policies reflected in the move from mainstream position from R to R'.
— Political Extemism and Rationality By Albert Breton, Page 79 Excerpt
Clearly, Albert Breton does not outright say or argue that "fascism is an extremism of the center". You can't just write "fascism is an extremism of the center" because this is not generally accepted and it won't stand on its own. "Some" is being used to throw this out there without naming the proponents of this claim or where their argument can be found. -- Jfrascencio 00:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
For "extremism of the center" also see Lipset's Political Man where he talks about fascism as extremism of the middle class. -- Vision Thing -- 21:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also "The classic fascist movements have represented the extremism of the center." ---Aristotle Kallis, Routlege 2003, page 113 Billy Ego 16:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone wrote in the introduction that the sources says that Nazis "embraced a structured role for what they considered productive industrial capitalism." Where in these sources does it say that? I don't see it. I'm challenging this. If it can't be verified that the sources say this then it needs to be removed. Billy Ego 17:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There was a party in Germany called German Workers' Party in 1919 of about 50 members. Hitler, a corporal, was sent by German intelligence to investigate the party. He got into an argument with party members, where they asked him to join after impressing them with his speaking ability. He later joined the party
The party became National Socialist German Workers' Party in 1920 against what Hitler wanted it to be renamed to "Social Revolutionary Party." Hitler accepted the new party name with the "National Socialist" part because it appealed to the working class and it inspired patriotism and nationalism, and also because there was no clear interpretation of the phrase.
Hitler defined the terms nationalism and socialism in an unusual way. Hitler defined nationalism as the devotion of the individual to the nation. He defined socialism as responsibility of others for each individual.
The fact remains that there was rising support of the working class for socialism and communism at the time. Politicians tend to say anything in public speeches to gain support. So using what Hitler said to the public during his rise to power should be done in a skeptical questioning way. What should be examined is the actual system that Hitler had in place when he was in power. -- Jfrascencio 18:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Nazi Germany was a capitalist nation, there was national walfare, but the economic system was capitalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.239.161 ( talk) 11:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I moved this here. It should not be included in the introduction because it is only one view on the matter. Others historians have argued the importance of anti-Semitism in Fascism, as well as of racism (see the review Difesa della Razza, for example). To claim Fascism had nothing to do with racism is overlooking the fascist project of creating a "new man;" it prevents understanding the use of sports and the condemnation of so-called " degenerate art" which perverted the "race". If you want to reintroduce that statement, do so in a subsection concerning "Fascism and Racism."
Though a number of fascist movements expressed racist beliefs, racism is not a constitutive element of fascism. <ref>Herbert Kitschelt, Anthony J. McGann. The Radical Right in Western Europe: a comparative analysis. 1996 University of Michigan Press. p. 30</ref>
Tazmaniacs 20:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism in its purest form like communism is an economic system that is a tool meant to keep a stable government, there has never been a pure fascist ruler, Hitler was a nationalist who used fascism as his economic plan and Mussolini was a socialist that used some fascist idea as his own. And to say racism or hate towards Jews being a major principle in fascism, would be a lie because nationalism promotes racism and Hitler was just racist so he shouldn't be your judge of fascism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.134.192 ( talk) 20:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
It is meaningless to say "Fascists opposed laissez-faire capitalism & finance capitalism." Finance capitalism is a specific mode of capitalism (which deals with finance). Laissez-faire is an economic policy related to classical liberalism, which advocates to not put any rules or state intervention on the market. Despite explicit ideologies, no state on Earth is faithfull to such classical liberalism theories, and the US least of all (with all the funds given to research and others stuff). It simply is senseless to include the two concepts in the same sentence as if they both designated rival types of capitalism. Furthermore, this article is about Fascists in general, and Italian Fascism and Nazism are the archetypes of such movements. There is thus no need to explicitly quote Nazism in the intro. If you do, use the term Nazism, not "National Socialist" (per discussion above). Finally, part on anti-Semitism related to capitalism is not needed in intro. Here is the controversed passage (which I have not removed myself for the time being (see diff):
Fascists also opposed laissez-faire capitalism and finance capitalism. Many, particularly National Socialists, considered the latter parasitic and associated it with Jews.<ref>Postone, Moishe. 1986. "Anti-Semitism and National Socialism." Germans & Jews Since the Holocaust: The Changing Situation in West Germany, ed. Anson Rabinbach and Jack Zipes. New York: Homes & Meier.</ref><ref>Calvin B. Hoover, ''The Paths of Economic Change: Contrasting Tendencies in the Modern World'', The American Economic Review, Vol. 25, No. 1, * Supplement, Papers and Proceedings of the Forty-seventh Annual Meeting of the American Economic Association. (Mar., 1935), pp. 13-20; Philip Morgan, ''Fascism in Europe, 1919-1945, New York Tayolor & Francis 2003, p. 168</ref>
Tazmaniacs 21:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism revolted against laissez-faire capitalism. Laissez-faire capitalism was seen as the cause of the Great Depression. Laissez-faire capitalism did indeed exist, and no this doesn't have to mean "absolutely" no intervention. It is a relative term. Economic planning, full employment policy, etc came from fascism. Fascist economics was sweeping the world. The idea was not to let the market take charge but to take charge of the market by controlling it for the public good. If "classical liberal" capitalism doesn't exist now it's to the credit of the fascists. Billy Ego 00:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
<--------------Marginal views should not dominate this discussion or entry. See WP:UW.-- Cberlet 02:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
<--------------Marginal views should not dominate this discussion or entry. See WP:UW.-- Cberlet 02:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Capitalism = supply and demand market economy with mostly private property. Regulation or planning in a capitalist economy does not make someone anti-capitalist. Opposition to laissez faire capitalism is not note worthy, because it is practically dead.
This is nonsence because do not exist such kind of market (cannot be free market at all, this is logic). Any economic system relies on supply-demand market, that is why all these countries develop. Everywhere is planning and regulations it is inevitable, chaos do not allow us to progress.
Laissez faire capitalism was a reaction to
Mercantilism. Does government intervention = socialism? Then Mercantilism is a form of socialism if that is the case, but it is not.
Socialism/Communism was a reaction to free market capitalism (or laissez faire capitalism) by the lower or working class. Fascism was a reaction to the rising power of the lower and working class. It was a reaction to maintain the existing order.
That is true. Moreover fascism must contain nazism elements or some superiority against others. And not only to free market but any kind of capitalism. Socialism and mercantilism is two completely different ideologies cause in mercantilism can only exist private economy with some restrictions.
Take the capitalist economy of the U.S. for example: market economy, supply and demand, mostly private property. However there is regulation and government intervention or opposition to laissez faire (i.e. no government intervention).
Is laissez faire communism possible? In theory yes. That is a system with no government intervention, but no private property, property is shared, and a classless society. -- Jfrascencio 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the problem lies in how different people define capitalism and socialism. Most people consider the US mostly capitalist, but Milton Friedman considered it only about half capitalist; the government controls 40% of the economy directly and government mandates and regulations bring it up to ~50%. His argument was that ownership of capital is essentially equivalent to being entitled to the product of that capital. Government entitlement to x% of profits is equivalent to x% ownership. By his definitions, most Western nations are more socialist than capitalist.
JoeCarson
15:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
These last changes were incorrect. Collectivism in this case does not only refer to economic planning. It also means anti-individualism, as in being subordinate to the state, which is a form of social planning. It needs to be changed back. Intangible2.0 22:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism portrayed itself as seeking a transformative rebirth of the society, it opposed both liberal and conservative solutions to societal problems and it claimed to represent a
Third Way between
liberal capitalism and
Marxist
socialism.
This does not cite it's sources and it goes counter to what is generally accepted. Fascism is a conservative, right-wing movement and it is unfortunate that conservative/right wing individuals want to twist the truth because they refuse to accept it.
Fascism arose during the 1920s and '30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; ...its [fascism's] protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems.
— Fascism, Encyclopedia Britannica
-- Jfrascencio 22:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Robert Bideleux and Ian Jeffries, A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change, Routledge, 1998 (ISBN 0-415-1611-8) provides some rather good discussion of various views of fascism. Someone may want to draw on some of this for the article.
Their discussion continues for another 20 pages and resumes later in the book, where they look also at the strengths and weaknesses of Marxist views of fascism (basically, they think the Marxists — and others — have some good points on economic matters, non-Marxists have good points on nationalism, and both tend to ignore the strengths of each other's views). I'm not going to try to summarize it all here; someone working on the article may want to get hold of the book, though. I think the discussion is excellent. Just a few more quotations:
- Jmabel | Talk 20:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Nonetheless, much of fascism's bid for greatness depended on a battle of ideas, not only with Communism but with liberal democracy as well. This was especially evident in the claim that fascist movements represented a 'Third Way' between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism.
— Peter Davies and Dereck Lynch, Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge 2003, p. 101
Text in Wikipedia Fascism article: "Fascist movements have often claimed to represent a " Third Way between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism." (reference above given)
1. Reference talks about a claim, but makes no mention of who makes the claim.
2. The word "often" is not used in the reference.
3. The reference uses the word "Nonetheless" (meaning there were mentioned things to the contrary).
4. The reference appears to be taken out of context.
-- Jfrascencio 07:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think starting a major entry with a quote from a single scholar is a very bad idea.
In any case, the lead quote and cite are simply butchered and need correction. If it is a "direct quote" as Nickodemos states, where are the quote marks? And the cite is missing information. What is the name of the book? A one sentence quote cannot run from pages 25-31. Either the quote is wrongly cited, or this is a chapter, or what?-- Cberlet 23:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think (following Bideleux and Jeffries phrasing, quoted above) even in the lead we should distinguish between "a narrow, uniform, 'purist' conception of fascism" and "a broader, more variegated conception of fascism". - Jmabel | Talk 16:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I see some problems with the current version of the lead:
For one thing, it's a run-on sentence, which should be avoided, especially in a lead sentence. I'm not so sure that "mass movement" should be mentioned in that sentence, because one can be a fascist without having a mass movement to back you up (also it should be "accompanied by", not "accompanied with"). Finally, some of the wording seems right out of a speech or pamphlet, such as "forge", "pledging", "reclaim","glory", "struggle", and "renew and rebuild." All those words together in one sentence makes it seem like a commercial instead of a neutral encyclopedic article. Spylab 17:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
One can say that about almost every ideology, yet articles about other ideologies don't tag on the phrase "and a mass movement" in their lead sentences. A person can support the ideology of fascism without being involved with a mass movement. I'm not sure why you deleted the lead sentence without discussion. I am restoring it because all Wikipedia articles need lead sentences, and there was nothing controversial about the most recent version. Spylab 10:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I find that the mention of collectivism early on is interesting. I always associated collectivism with communism. Interesting viewpoint. My encyclopedia defines it as a more socialist/communist ideology, but I guess that the Brittannica is good enough for me! Wikiisawesome 11:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The above is incorrect. Collectivism in respect to fascism means that the individual is subservient to the collective. In Italian fascism the collective is the state. In Nazism the collective is the race. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No Joke ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
Totalitarianism can not be considered an "element" of Fascism. Rather, Fascism may be defined as a totalitarian movement. Changed intro accordingly. Tazmaniacs 17:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that the debate continues whether racism is a necessary element of fascism. This should be hashed out on the discussion page instead of turning into an edit war. It is my understanding that racism is usually part of fascist movements and governments, but that racism is not absolutely required in fascismt. Spylab 17:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
How come it's so common among the general public to misspell the word "fascism" as "facism"? That has got to be one of the Most Annoyingly Common Misspellings of All Time. What's a "facist" supposed to do, support the application of eye shadow, lipstick, and powder puff? 204.52.215.107 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
And your source is? Do you know history of Austria? Xx236 09:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that in Communist language many opponents of Soviets are called fascists and many people in the West are talking Soviet language till now. The result is that any statement about fascism has two meanings. Xx236 09:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Many people think that fascism was created by Adolf Hitler; this is not strictly true as national socialists are in fact a massive part of the past five hundred years.Connections with racism,homophobia,feelings of self imposed power and egomania is what makes this growing trend truly a laughable thing.
Obviously, well I believe, that the six million jews were indeed killed; amongst millions of gays jews etc. But this is growing with the idiotic BNP which poisons our society. People of different races have right to live ANYWHERE they want and that is final!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eternity666 ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
Nationalisim has nothing to do with fascisim. Name one nation state without this characteristic? Europeans are in the midst of a political shift, a consolidation of national identities and thus believe that EU trends are of global relevance. Before I edit nationalism out of the article, is there ant debate? Raggz 01:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it's better to say that fascism needs nationalism while nationalism can and does exist quite seperated from fascism. You know the old saying "All mammals are vertebrates, but not all vertabrates are mammals..." You can have a backbone without being a mammal. You can have nationalism without being fascist. Does this clear things up?
John 08:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Nationalists are found everywhere on the Left-Right political spectrum, from the Communists of todays Russia up to Adolf Hitler's Nazis. Thus fascists are not necessarily nationalists, for fascists want POWER FOR THE STATE... - Pika ten10 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Nationalism does not alone explain fascism and nationalism does not set fascism apart from other ideologies. What makes fascism different is its ultra-nationalism. This is what sets it apart. This is mostly because of the mythology surrounding the state and its people. How many states include ideas about mythologies of the people who live there? This will undoubtedly evolve within a fascist state to biological racism. Something that does not happen within a democratic or communist state. Biological racism comes from the conclusion that ultra-nationalism comes to. Ultra-nationalism assumes that if the nation is great and its origins are too, then the nation must not be 'infiltrated' by others. This forms biological racism and is also only present in fascist states. For example, Nazi Germany's anti-Semitic agenda, and the mass killings that occurred in Abyssinia (currently known as Ethiopia)committed by Italy under Mussolini. This nationalism and ultra-nationalism will be required in some form in order to attract members of all social classes.By the way, there is no such thing as a nation state. A Nation state is country, in which there is one nation living. The only country that MIGHT fit this description is Japan. No other country fits this description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.81.247 ( talk) 14:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I tagged parts of this article with {{ fact}} and {{ unreferenced}} which are unsouced. I didn't tag the anti-communism section, because it already has a similar tag. There is enough materila unsourced here to warrent the {{ More sources}} tag-- Sefringle 03:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
May I assume that this site copied Wiki without attribution rather than the opposite? Raggz 21:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"Fascism: Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, collectivism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism.[1][2][3]
http://www.eliteintegrity.co.uk/Democracy/Ideologies%20-%20Fascism.php
Fascism isnt socialist nor capitalist, it is syndicalist. To be more precise it is National Syndicalist. We should include that most fascist theotricians take their ideals from syndicalist George Sorrell, and were part of syndicalist parties before joining the Fascists. The syndicalist parties in Europe split into two camps: The Nationalist camp and the Anarchist camp. The biggest supporters of Franco were the National Syndicalist party. Remember the group of bound arrows in the film Pan's Labrynth? That was the JONS! Mussolini mentions that his system is a form of corporate syndicalism. British Union of Facsist Leader Oswald Mosely propated syndicalism as Fascism and his ideals are open for the public viewing on his website.
The point is that the Fascists parties of Europe were right wing in nature but used LEFTIST tactics to gain power. They believed that the Fascist Party was the one big union that would unite workers and bosses under one roof.
Its not my own opinion.....
http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/dannunzio.html http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/sorel.html http://www.oswaldmosley.com/um/syndicalism.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism#Syndicalism_and_the_.27Third_Way.27
MYSTERY OF FASICSM: http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm "Fascism was a doctrine well elaborated years before it was named. The core of the Fascist movement launched officially in the Piazza San Sepolcro on 23rd March 1919 was an intellectual and organizational tradition called "national syndicalism."
Mussolini Doctrine of Fascism: "It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!. I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism …" http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm
"The fascist party had conceived the fascist state. One could not think of a "corporate state" or a "syndicalist state" without thinking of the fascist party. Fascism was inseparable from corporativism or syndicalism. If one removed the one concept, he necessarily removed the others. The fascist party, not the state, was the guardian of the fascist ideals, especially including syndicalism and the corporate organization of the state. The orthodoxy of syndicalist ideas was safeguarded in the fascist party. Hence, the highest value in the fascist state was syndicalism-corporativism." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p--5_Whisker.html
Fascist Flange Arriba, number 20, November 1935. "No. The National Syndicalist Movement is convinced that it has found the right way out: neither capitalist nor communist. Faced by the individualist economy of the bourgeoisie, the socialist one arose, which handed over the fruits of production to the State, enslaving the individual. Neither of them have resolved the tragedy of the producer. To address this issue let us erect the synicalist economy, which neither absorbs the individual personality into the State, nor turns the worker into a dehumanized cog in the machinery of bourgeois production."
Any more proof, needed? http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/falangist.html
<-------------Few scholars dispute that syndicalism played a role in the formation of fascism, but if you are unwilling or unable to provide a reputable published scholalry source and edit text based on Wikipedia guidelines you are simply wasting everyone's time. -- Cberlet 18:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
You mean Oswald Mosley, Benito Mussolini's own words arent enough to convice Wiki?
This section seem to be quite bias against the protestent churches, especially the Lutheran church, and seems based more on generalizations and outmoded assumptions than actual fact. Needs to be edited IMO. The way it is worded seems to cast blame on the Lutheran church, and it also supports that tired, old, ridiculous, overly simplified view that Martin Luther directly inspired anti-semitism in Germany... He most certainly did not. He only partook in something symptomatic of his time. But I digress. Anyway this needs a sever re-write.
John 07:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
John 18:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Saying " I really do not care that some people are witing books" etc., seems unhelpful. Books written by noted scholars and published by reputable houses carry more weight than your own unsupported opinion. Here is Martin Luther in his own words, as published by the Lutheran Church. Hard to get more definitive than that: On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). This document most certainly did encourage later antisemitism, and ultimately the Nazi "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem." Clocke ( talk) 11:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I figure the Nordic theory acticle reflects the chaotic science and antihumanitarian emphasis of Fascism sufficiently to justify a merger into this article.
Rokus01 01:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Innocence on the anthropological definitions on race is why mosts fascists at least think (or thought) they are of the Nordic race. Even Hitler was far from anything Nordic. I would say such suprematist racial theories are typical to all fascists, without exception. Your statement on fascism without racism sounds pretty OR to me. Other race theories might be involved, however, this does not take away the outstanding and almost exclusive importance of race theory to fascism. Rokus01 01:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The fascism and Nordic theory articles clearly show they are about two different topics and should not be merged. Nordic theory should not even be merged with the Nazism article, because Nazi ideology has a lot more to it than just the racist aspect. Perhaps Nordic theory could be merged into a similar racial article such as White supremacy, but definitely not the fascism or Nazism articles. Spylab 14:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me explain. "The" Nordic theory is not so much a theory on "race", but an abuse of contemporary racial anthropology. This abuse was in accordance with fascism's political motives towards expansion and hegemony. Thus, such a racial theory to be specifically "Nordic" is just circumstancial. Italian fascism adopted the ideal of cultural hegemony by themselves and Mussolini was not deterred to introduce the Charter of Race, here confusing concepts of nationality and race by purpose. Correspondingly, Japanese fascism recurred to indoctrination touting Japanese racial superiority - leading to atrocities against the Chinese population and European (ironically, mostly "Nordic") prisoners of war and slave laborers. Also, the appliance of "Nordic Theory" to Nazism did not save the milions of Polish people and Russians from termination by Nazicm, without regard to their true racial features being Nordic or close to Nordic, instead they were labelled Üntermensch" and killed accordingly. This article should make clear fascism's total abuse of the concept of race by racial theory. All adherence to racial theories is referred to nowadays as being Fascistic. The article on Nordic Theory could be useful to this end, naturally heavily condensed and put in a subsection together with those other "racial theories" inherent to fascism. Rokus01 15:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I hold this as a "yes" to a new subsection "Fascism and the concept of race". Rokus01 21:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I quote: we are not ignorant about fascist ideology, ethnocentrism, and racism. Still I don't see any indepth reference here to the Fascist concept of race. Such a Fascist concept certainly differs considerably to the scientific concept, since it involves nationality rather than anthropology, insinuates psychology rather than physical measurements, adheres to a predefined political stance rather than insight and continuous investigation. There are lots of studies tying fascism to race theory. In other words, this article on Fascism wouldn't be complete without an indepth subsection on race theory. Since all of you are not ignorant, I would like to hear some valid arguments against such a subsection - if any. I mean, you can't be serious in wanting to keep race theory issues out of this article? Are people here working on a redefinition of fascism to make it self-explanatory, or what? Rokus01 19:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hrmmm... Your article says political
liberalism can sometimes cause Fascism. Bollocks, liberalism is against nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, so this page contradicts itself. Conservatism is more likely to cause fascism because it is PRO nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, censorship and of course has one of the biggest aspects for fascism FEAR CAMPAIGING. I bet this will get taken off this talk page because Wikipedia is the fascist encyclopaedia nobody can edit without getting banned.--
124.187.20.197
02:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The strongest state I know is the Soviet one. Nazi Germany was very liberal comparing to the Soviet Union. Xx236 09:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
You misspelled "Encyclopedia." Although wikipedia is mildly fascist, ->They have to be if they want any accurate information on their website<- I wish didn't save my IP adress though that bothers me. But if you disagree with an article on any wiki you have can edit: ETIT IT! Jeez! Oh BTW Stalin is worse than Hitler because at least Hitler's friends were safe. Stalin's friends however were most certainly dead. See ya! 76.19.175.114 ( talk) 23:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.175.114 ( talk) 23:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There have been numerous debates over this matter extending back many months. Please, let's not open this up again. The current wording is already a compromise that overemphasizes the minority viewpoint.-- Cberlet 15:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone want to chime on on which format the cites should take on this page? We need to convert to a single standard. Some sections need more cites inserted (although the books cited at the end of the article already cover most of the text). I personally hate the long cite method, but that's me. Anyone want to adopt a section and find the proper cites?-- Cberlet 12:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is the reference by Paxton included? It's not an informative reference so much as putting fascism down. That reference would be like me going to the page on democracy and saying "democracy is defined by corruption, lack of direction, slow legislative process, etc." The reference doesn't add to this article, it just points out some of the flaws of fascism. JW 00:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Paxton is one of the most important English language scholars of fascism, and he is attempting to offer a definition of fascism. It is absolutely relevant. john k ( talk) 07:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Just an anonymous contributor, but I think something needs pointing out. This article claims fascism is usually understood as nationalistic. Wikipedia defines nationalism as "a doctrine or political movement that holds that a nation—usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture—has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny." And Benito Mussolini, in "The Doctrine of Fascism", which, I think we can agree, is something of an authority on the subject claims that: "In so far as it is embodied in a State, this higher personality becomes a nation. It is not the nation which generates the State; that is an antiquated naturalistic concept which afforded a basis for XIXth century publicity in favor of national governments. Rather is it the State which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity."
This weighty block of text will, I hope, prevent anyone claiming I have taken a soundbite out of context. So there it is: a whole paragraph basically contradicting our definition of nationalism. It seems to claim that nations cannot exist without states (in a nationalist's ideal world, the reverse is true), and that a nation without a state is not in fact a nation (so there goes the ideology of an overwhelming majority of nationalistic revolutions, resistances, political parties and other movements).
Can someone help me solve this without getting cognitive dissonance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.192.125.107 ( talk) 20:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't like George W. Bush very much either, but I don't think there's the same abundance of scholarly evidence to suggest that his government is "most often considered to have been fascist" in the same way as Hitler and Mussolini (second paragraph of the article). The list after that is made up entirely of WWII era movements as well. Certainly many people are unhappy with his administration, but they can hardly be lumped into the same "facist" group as Hitler. Am I alone in thinking this is a little silly? Perhaps this could be somewhere else in the article, but it seems like it shouldn't be in the second paragraph that someone reads. Unquist 16:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
NM. Someone just reverted it. Unquist 16:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... seems to me and many people I've spoken to, that they would define George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their administration as fascist. (From the Wiki page): "Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism"... seems pretty accurate. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.205.234.126 (
talk)
23:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I included George Bush's name in the list of governments thought fascist, because there is an incredible amount of articles examining the possibility - search for 'george bush fascism' on Google Scholar and see what you can uncover. 144.92.120.44 ( talk) 00:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page has grown long from time to time and topical subsections have been pulled out and new pages created. Please do not complain about information missing from this page until you have explored the Fascism Template pages. Weaving links to existing pages or adding text with pointers to longer discussions is both appropriate and useful.-- Cberlet 21:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
From the "Positions on Religion" section:
Nazis arrested and killed thousands of Catholic clergy (18% of the priests in Poland were killed), eventually consigning thousands of them to concentration camps (2600 died in Dachau alone).[125] Although Jews were obviously the greatest and primary target, Hitler also sent Roman Catholics to concentration camps along with the Jews and killed 3 million Catholic Poles along with three million Jewish Pole.
Wasn't the persecution of millions of Poles mostly motivated by the Nazi supremacist ideology, not because these Poles were Catholic? I would also think that the persecution of members of the clergy was to kill people who had leadership roles to render Polish society powerless. The Nazis did persecute some upstanding Catholics that criticized them in Germany as well, but early on struck a (now very controversial) deal with the Vatican, the Reichskonkordat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevo2001 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why this sentence is here:
"fascists supported revolutionary politics, and fascists like Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler used leftist political terms such as "proletariat" and "bourgeois" to describe society. "
"proletariat" and "bourgeois" are not leftist political terms! If one is associating them with Marx (who didn't invent said words) then they would be right-ist (very conservative) not very liberal. -- Russ Frank 16:11, 02 August 2008 (UTC)
In the listed elements of fascism is "opposition to laissez faire capitalism", and the references given are the following:
Could the text for these sources be provided for independent review? I have seen no evidence that fascists opposed free market capitalism and did they not ally themselves with them? -- Jfrascencio 02:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
We fascists do not trust the market to take care of things. The market can operate to an extent, but state must make sure resources are distributed in an equitable manner and make sure that workers aren't being exploited. We support minimum wage laws, welfare system, laws against usury, etc. That's what fascism is all about. The "invisible hand" just doesn't work. Billy Ego 03:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Now how about some text from the source that is alleged to say that "most" scholars see it as on the political right or allied with right-wing movements? The source given in the article is John Hoffman and Paul Graham. Introduction to Political Theory. Pearson 2006, p. 288. ISBN 0-582-47373-X Billy Ego 16:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascist economy centers on war production. Since it has no interest in the welfare of the masses of people and prefers to depress wages of workers and farmers and lower their standard of living, goods for popular consumption are of secondary importance
— Facts and Fascism by George Seldes, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/George_Seldes/Facts_and_Fascism.html
-- Jfrascencio 05:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, fascist/Nazi governments did regulate the economy and have a welfare state, but so did capitalist democratic governments. Most governments in so-called capitalist countries have placed restrictions on the economy, have used government spending to boost certain sectors of the economy, have expected some sacrifices from its citizens for the common good, and have set up programs to help the needy. This is especially true during wartime or economic downturns. If that translated into anti-capitalism, then I guess that means the US, the UK and similar non-fascist/non-communist countries are anti-capitalist too. I have seen no evidence that fascist Italy or Nazi Germany were any more opposed to laissez fair capitalism than those two Western capitalist democracies and other similar countries. There have been very few countries that have been laissez faire capitalist in the true sense of the term. Spylab 23:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism is the same capitalism based on nazism and totalitarism. Communism is the fight for freedom and against the slavery imposed by capitalists (opposite to capitalism). Socialism is the middle way ideology, that is it combines the best qualities of both (no monopoly and no private big corporations). Liberalism is the same capitalism based on free exploitation without government involvment (or some rules against free exploitation). Capitalism is the base of all evel on our earth. All wars before communism was caused by this ideology when a small group of individuals takes all profit of work and the vaste majority are sheer slaves. Monarchy is the same capitalism ruled by dynasties.
This is given:
As a reference to this:
Many illustrations of this mechanism come to mind. One is the fact that Hitler found electoral support among voters who normally voted for parties of the center, and more generally the fact that fascism can be interpreted with some degree of plausibility as "an extremism of the center" (see, for examaple, Kershaw 1992, Sternhell 1978). In that case, what could motivate the middle classes is their fear of the consequences of the adoption of some economic policies reflected in the move from mainstream position from R to R'.
— Political Extemism and Rationality By Albert Breton, Page 79 Excerpt
Clearly, Albert Breton does not outright say or argue that "fascism is an extremism of the center". You can't just write "fascism is an extremism of the center" because this is not generally accepted and it won't stand on its own. "Some" is being used to throw this out there without naming the proponents of this claim or where their argument can be found. -- Jfrascencio 00:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
For "extremism of the center" also see Lipset's Political Man where he talks about fascism as extremism of the middle class. -- Vision Thing -- 21:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also "The classic fascist movements have represented the extremism of the center." ---Aristotle Kallis, Routlege 2003, page 113 Billy Ego 16:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone wrote in the introduction that the sources says that Nazis "embraced a structured role for what they considered productive industrial capitalism." Where in these sources does it say that? I don't see it. I'm challenging this. If it can't be verified that the sources say this then it needs to be removed. Billy Ego 17:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There was a party in Germany called German Workers' Party in 1919 of about 50 members. Hitler, a corporal, was sent by German intelligence to investigate the party. He got into an argument with party members, where they asked him to join after impressing them with his speaking ability. He later joined the party
The party became National Socialist German Workers' Party in 1920 against what Hitler wanted it to be renamed to "Social Revolutionary Party." Hitler accepted the new party name with the "National Socialist" part because it appealed to the working class and it inspired patriotism and nationalism, and also because there was no clear interpretation of the phrase.
Hitler defined the terms nationalism and socialism in an unusual way. Hitler defined nationalism as the devotion of the individual to the nation. He defined socialism as responsibility of others for each individual.
The fact remains that there was rising support of the working class for socialism and communism at the time. Politicians tend to say anything in public speeches to gain support. So using what Hitler said to the public during his rise to power should be done in a skeptical questioning way. What should be examined is the actual system that Hitler had in place when he was in power. -- Jfrascencio 18:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Nazi Germany was a capitalist nation, there was national walfare, but the economic system was capitalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.239.161 ( talk) 11:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I moved this here. It should not be included in the introduction because it is only one view on the matter. Others historians have argued the importance of anti-Semitism in Fascism, as well as of racism (see the review Difesa della Razza, for example). To claim Fascism had nothing to do with racism is overlooking the fascist project of creating a "new man;" it prevents understanding the use of sports and the condemnation of so-called " degenerate art" which perverted the "race". If you want to reintroduce that statement, do so in a subsection concerning "Fascism and Racism."
Though a number of fascist movements expressed racist beliefs, racism is not a constitutive element of fascism. <ref>Herbert Kitschelt, Anthony J. McGann. The Radical Right in Western Europe: a comparative analysis. 1996 University of Michigan Press. p. 30</ref>
Tazmaniacs 20:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism in its purest form like communism is an economic system that is a tool meant to keep a stable government, there has never been a pure fascist ruler, Hitler was a nationalist who used fascism as his economic plan and Mussolini was a socialist that used some fascist idea as his own. And to say racism or hate towards Jews being a major principle in fascism, would be a lie because nationalism promotes racism and Hitler was just racist so he shouldn't be your judge of fascism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.134.192 ( talk) 20:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
It is meaningless to say "Fascists opposed laissez-faire capitalism & finance capitalism." Finance capitalism is a specific mode of capitalism (which deals with finance). Laissez-faire is an economic policy related to classical liberalism, which advocates to not put any rules or state intervention on the market. Despite explicit ideologies, no state on Earth is faithfull to such classical liberalism theories, and the US least of all (with all the funds given to research and others stuff). It simply is senseless to include the two concepts in the same sentence as if they both designated rival types of capitalism. Furthermore, this article is about Fascists in general, and Italian Fascism and Nazism are the archetypes of such movements. There is thus no need to explicitly quote Nazism in the intro. If you do, use the term Nazism, not "National Socialist" (per discussion above). Finally, part on anti-Semitism related to capitalism is not needed in intro. Here is the controversed passage (which I have not removed myself for the time being (see diff):
Fascists also opposed laissez-faire capitalism and finance capitalism. Many, particularly National Socialists, considered the latter parasitic and associated it with Jews.<ref>Postone, Moishe. 1986. "Anti-Semitism and National Socialism." Germans & Jews Since the Holocaust: The Changing Situation in West Germany, ed. Anson Rabinbach and Jack Zipes. New York: Homes & Meier.</ref><ref>Calvin B. Hoover, ''The Paths of Economic Change: Contrasting Tendencies in the Modern World'', The American Economic Review, Vol. 25, No. 1, * Supplement, Papers and Proceedings of the Forty-seventh Annual Meeting of the American Economic Association. (Mar., 1935), pp. 13-20; Philip Morgan, ''Fascism in Europe, 1919-1945, New York Tayolor & Francis 2003, p. 168</ref>
Tazmaniacs 21:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism revolted against laissez-faire capitalism. Laissez-faire capitalism was seen as the cause of the Great Depression. Laissez-faire capitalism did indeed exist, and no this doesn't have to mean "absolutely" no intervention. It is a relative term. Economic planning, full employment policy, etc came from fascism. Fascist economics was sweeping the world. The idea was not to let the market take charge but to take charge of the market by controlling it for the public good. If "classical liberal" capitalism doesn't exist now it's to the credit of the fascists. Billy Ego 00:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
<--------------Marginal views should not dominate this discussion or entry. See WP:UW.-- Cberlet 02:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
<--------------Marginal views should not dominate this discussion or entry. See WP:UW.-- Cberlet 02:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Capitalism = supply and demand market economy with mostly private property. Regulation or planning in a capitalist economy does not make someone anti-capitalist. Opposition to laissez faire capitalism is not note worthy, because it is practically dead.
This is nonsence because do not exist such kind of market (cannot be free market at all, this is logic). Any economic system relies on supply-demand market, that is why all these countries develop. Everywhere is planning and regulations it is inevitable, chaos do not allow us to progress.
Laissez faire capitalism was a reaction to
Mercantilism. Does government intervention = socialism? Then Mercantilism is a form of socialism if that is the case, but it is not.
Socialism/Communism was a reaction to free market capitalism (or laissez faire capitalism) by the lower or working class. Fascism was a reaction to the rising power of the lower and working class. It was a reaction to maintain the existing order.
That is true. Moreover fascism must contain nazism elements or some superiority against others. And not only to free market but any kind of capitalism. Socialism and mercantilism is two completely different ideologies cause in mercantilism can only exist private economy with some restrictions.
Take the capitalist economy of the U.S. for example: market economy, supply and demand, mostly private property. However there is regulation and government intervention or opposition to laissez faire (i.e. no government intervention).
Is laissez faire communism possible? In theory yes. That is a system with no government intervention, but no private property, property is shared, and a classless society. -- Jfrascencio 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the problem lies in how different people define capitalism and socialism. Most people consider the US mostly capitalist, but Milton Friedman considered it only about half capitalist; the government controls 40% of the economy directly and government mandates and regulations bring it up to ~50%. His argument was that ownership of capital is essentially equivalent to being entitled to the product of that capital. Government entitlement to x% of profits is equivalent to x% ownership. By his definitions, most Western nations are more socialist than capitalist.
JoeCarson
15:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
These last changes were incorrect. Collectivism in this case does not only refer to economic planning. It also means anti-individualism, as in being subordinate to the state, which is a form of social planning. It needs to be changed back. Intangible2.0 22:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Fascism portrayed itself as seeking a transformative rebirth of the society, it opposed both liberal and conservative solutions to societal problems and it claimed to represent a
Third Way between
liberal capitalism and
Marxist
socialism.
This does not cite it's sources and it goes counter to what is generally accepted. Fascism is a conservative, right-wing movement and it is unfortunate that conservative/right wing individuals want to twist the truth because they refuse to accept it.
Fascism arose during the 1920s and '30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; ...its [fascism's] protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems.
— Fascism, Encyclopedia Britannica
-- Jfrascencio 22:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Robert Bideleux and Ian Jeffries, A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change, Routledge, 1998 (ISBN 0-415-1611-8) provides some rather good discussion of various views of fascism. Someone may want to draw on some of this for the article.
Their discussion continues for another 20 pages and resumes later in the book, where they look also at the strengths and weaknesses of Marxist views of fascism (basically, they think the Marxists — and others — have some good points on economic matters, non-Marxists have good points on nationalism, and both tend to ignore the strengths of each other's views). I'm not going to try to summarize it all here; someone working on the article may want to get hold of the book, though. I think the discussion is excellent. Just a few more quotations:
- Jmabel | Talk 20:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Nonetheless, much of fascism's bid for greatness depended on a battle of ideas, not only with Communism but with liberal democracy as well. This was especially evident in the claim that fascist movements represented a 'Third Way' between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism.
— Peter Davies and Dereck Lynch, Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge 2003, p. 101
Text in Wikipedia Fascism article: "Fascist movements have often claimed to represent a " Third Way between left and right, between Marxian socialism and capitalism." (reference above given)
1. Reference talks about a claim, but makes no mention of who makes the claim.
2. The word "often" is not used in the reference.
3. The reference uses the word "Nonetheless" (meaning there were mentioned things to the contrary).
4. The reference appears to be taken out of context.
-- Jfrascencio 07:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think starting a major entry with a quote from a single scholar is a very bad idea.
In any case, the lead quote and cite are simply butchered and need correction. If it is a "direct quote" as Nickodemos states, where are the quote marks? And the cite is missing information. What is the name of the book? A one sentence quote cannot run from pages 25-31. Either the quote is wrongly cited, or this is a chapter, or what?-- Cberlet 23:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think (following Bideleux and Jeffries phrasing, quoted above) even in the lead we should distinguish between "a narrow, uniform, 'purist' conception of fascism" and "a broader, more variegated conception of fascism". - Jmabel | Talk 16:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I see some problems with the current version of the lead:
For one thing, it's a run-on sentence, which should be avoided, especially in a lead sentence. I'm not so sure that "mass movement" should be mentioned in that sentence, because one can be a fascist without having a mass movement to back you up (also it should be "accompanied by", not "accompanied with"). Finally, some of the wording seems right out of a speech or pamphlet, such as "forge", "pledging", "reclaim","glory", "struggle", and "renew and rebuild." All those words together in one sentence makes it seem like a commercial instead of a neutral encyclopedic article. Spylab 17:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
One can say that about almost every ideology, yet articles about other ideologies don't tag on the phrase "and a mass movement" in their lead sentences. A person can support the ideology of fascism without being involved with a mass movement. I'm not sure why you deleted the lead sentence without discussion. I am restoring it because all Wikipedia articles need lead sentences, and there was nothing controversial about the most recent version. Spylab 10:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I find that the mention of collectivism early on is interesting. I always associated collectivism with communism. Interesting viewpoint. My encyclopedia defines it as a more socialist/communist ideology, but I guess that the Brittannica is good enough for me! Wikiisawesome 11:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The above is incorrect. Collectivism in respect to fascism means that the individual is subservient to the collective. In Italian fascism the collective is the state. In Nazism the collective is the race. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No Joke ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
Totalitarianism can not be considered an "element" of Fascism. Rather, Fascism may be defined as a totalitarian movement. Changed intro accordingly. Tazmaniacs 17:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that the debate continues whether racism is a necessary element of fascism. This should be hashed out on the discussion page instead of turning into an edit war. It is my understanding that racism is usually part of fascist movements and governments, but that racism is not absolutely required in fascismt. Spylab 17:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
How come it's so common among the general public to misspell the word "fascism" as "facism"? That has got to be one of the Most Annoyingly Common Misspellings of All Time. What's a "facist" supposed to do, support the application of eye shadow, lipstick, and powder puff? 204.52.215.107 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
And your source is? Do you know history of Austria? Xx236 09:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that in Communist language many opponents of Soviets are called fascists and many people in the West are talking Soviet language till now. The result is that any statement about fascism has two meanings. Xx236 09:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Many people think that fascism was created by Adolf Hitler; this is not strictly true as national socialists are in fact a massive part of the past five hundred years.Connections with racism,homophobia,feelings of self imposed power and egomania is what makes this growing trend truly a laughable thing.
Obviously, well I believe, that the six million jews were indeed killed; amongst millions of gays jews etc. But this is growing with the idiotic BNP which poisons our society. People of different races have right to live ANYWHERE they want and that is final!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eternity666 ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
Nationalisim has nothing to do with fascisim. Name one nation state without this characteristic? Europeans are in the midst of a political shift, a consolidation of national identities and thus believe that EU trends are of global relevance. Before I edit nationalism out of the article, is there ant debate? Raggz 01:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it's better to say that fascism needs nationalism while nationalism can and does exist quite seperated from fascism. You know the old saying "All mammals are vertebrates, but not all vertabrates are mammals..." You can have a backbone without being a mammal. You can have nationalism without being fascist. Does this clear things up?
John 08:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Nationalists are found everywhere on the Left-Right political spectrum, from the Communists of todays Russia up to Adolf Hitler's Nazis. Thus fascists are not necessarily nationalists, for fascists want POWER FOR THE STATE... - Pika ten10 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Nationalism does not alone explain fascism and nationalism does not set fascism apart from other ideologies. What makes fascism different is its ultra-nationalism. This is what sets it apart. This is mostly because of the mythology surrounding the state and its people. How many states include ideas about mythologies of the people who live there? This will undoubtedly evolve within a fascist state to biological racism. Something that does not happen within a democratic or communist state. Biological racism comes from the conclusion that ultra-nationalism comes to. Ultra-nationalism assumes that if the nation is great and its origins are too, then the nation must not be 'infiltrated' by others. This forms biological racism and is also only present in fascist states. For example, Nazi Germany's anti-Semitic agenda, and the mass killings that occurred in Abyssinia (currently known as Ethiopia)committed by Italy under Mussolini. This nationalism and ultra-nationalism will be required in some form in order to attract members of all social classes.By the way, there is no such thing as a nation state. A Nation state is country, in which there is one nation living. The only country that MIGHT fit this description is Japan. No other country fits this description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.81.247 ( talk) 14:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I tagged parts of this article with {{ fact}} and {{ unreferenced}} which are unsouced. I didn't tag the anti-communism section, because it already has a similar tag. There is enough materila unsourced here to warrent the {{ More sources}} tag-- Sefringle 03:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
May I assume that this site copied Wiki without attribution rather than the opposite? Raggz 21:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"Fascism: Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, collectivism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism.[1][2][3]
http://www.eliteintegrity.co.uk/Democracy/Ideologies%20-%20Fascism.php
Fascism isnt socialist nor capitalist, it is syndicalist. To be more precise it is National Syndicalist. We should include that most fascist theotricians take their ideals from syndicalist George Sorrell, and were part of syndicalist parties before joining the Fascists. The syndicalist parties in Europe split into two camps: The Nationalist camp and the Anarchist camp. The biggest supporters of Franco were the National Syndicalist party. Remember the group of bound arrows in the film Pan's Labrynth? That was the JONS! Mussolini mentions that his system is a form of corporate syndicalism. British Union of Facsist Leader Oswald Mosely propated syndicalism as Fascism and his ideals are open for the public viewing on his website.
The point is that the Fascists parties of Europe were right wing in nature but used LEFTIST tactics to gain power. They believed that the Fascist Party was the one big union that would unite workers and bosses under one roof.
Its not my own opinion.....
http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/dannunzio.html http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/sorel.html http://www.oswaldmosley.com/um/syndicalism.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism#Syndicalism_and_the_.27Third_Way.27
MYSTERY OF FASICSM: http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm "Fascism was a doctrine well elaborated years before it was named. The core of the Fascist movement launched officially in the Piazza San Sepolcro on 23rd March 1919 was an intellectual and organizational tradition called "national syndicalism."
Mussolini Doctrine of Fascism: "It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!. I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism …" http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm
"The fascist party had conceived the fascist state. One could not think of a "corporate state" or a "syndicalist state" without thinking of the fascist party. Fascism was inseparable from corporativism or syndicalism. If one removed the one concept, he necessarily removed the others. The fascist party, not the state, was the guardian of the fascist ideals, especially including syndicalism and the corporate organization of the state. The orthodoxy of syndicalist ideas was safeguarded in the fascist party. Hence, the highest value in the fascist state was syndicalism-corporativism." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p--5_Whisker.html
Fascist Flange Arriba, number 20, November 1935. "No. The National Syndicalist Movement is convinced that it has found the right way out: neither capitalist nor communist. Faced by the individualist economy of the bourgeoisie, the socialist one arose, which handed over the fruits of production to the State, enslaving the individual. Neither of them have resolved the tragedy of the producer. To address this issue let us erect the synicalist economy, which neither absorbs the individual personality into the State, nor turns the worker into a dehumanized cog in the machinery of bourgeois production."
Any more proof, needed? http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/falangist.html
<-------------Few scholars dispute that syndicalism played a role in the formation of fascism, but if you are unwilling or unable to provide a reputable published scholalry source and edit text based on Wikipedia guidelines you are simply wasting everyone's time. -- Cberlet 18:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
You mean Oswald Mosley, Benito Mussolini's own words arent enough to convice Wiki?
This section seem to be quite bias against the protestent churches, especially the Lutheran church, and seems based more on generalizations and outmoded assumptions than actual fact. Needs to be edited IMO. The way it is worded seems to cast blame on the Lutheran church, and it also supports that tired, old, ridiculous, overly simplified view that Martin Luther directly inspired anti-semitism in Germany... He most certainly did not. He only partook in something symptomatic of his time. But I digress. Anyway this needs a sever re-write.
John 07:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
John 18:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Saying " I really do not care that some people are witing books" etc., seems unhelpful. Books written by noted scholars and published by reputable houses carry more weight than your own unsupported opinion. Here is Martin Luther in his own words, as published by the Lutheran Church. Hard to get more definitive than that: On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). This document most certainly did encourage later antisemitism, and ultimately the Nazi "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem." Clocke ( talk) 11:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I figure the Nordic theory acticle reflects the chaotic science and antihumanitarian emphasis of Fascism sufficiently to justify a merger into this article.
Rokus01 01:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Innocence on the anthropological definitions on race is why mosts fascists at least think (or thought) they are of the Nordic race. Even Hitler was far from anything Nordic. I would say such suprematist racial theories are typical to all fascists, without exception. Your statement on fascism without racism sounds pretty OR to me. Other race theories might be involved, however, this does not take away the outstanding and almost exclusive importance of race theory to fascism. Rokus01 01:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The fascism and Nordic theory articles clearly show they are about two different topics and should not be merged. Nordic theory should not even be merged with the Nazism article, because Nazi ideology has a lot more to it than just the racist aspect. Perhaps Nordic theory could be merged into a similar racial article such as White supremacy, but definitely not the fascism or Nazism articles. Spylab 14:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me explain. "The" Nordic theory is not so much a theory on "race", but an abuse of contemporary racial anthropology. This abuse was in accordance with fascism's political motives towards expansion and hegemony. Thus, such a racial theory to be specifically "Nordic" is just circumstancial. Italian fascism adopted the ideal of cultural hegemony by themselves and Mussolini was not deterred to introduce the Charter of Race, here confusing concepts of nationality and race by purpose. Correspondingly, Japanese fascism recurred to indoctrination touting Japanese racial superiority - leading to atrocities against the Chinese population and European (ironically, mostly "Nordic") prisoners of war and slave laborers. Also, the appliance of "Nordic Theory" to Nazism did not save the milions of Polish people and Russians from termination by Nazicm, without regard to their true racial features being Nordic or close to Nordic, instead they were labelled Üntermensch" and killed accordingly. This article should make clear fascism's total abuse of the concept of race by racial theory. All adherence to racial theories is referred to nowadays as being Fascistic. The article on Nordic Theory could be useful to this end, naturally heavily condensed and put in a subsection together with those other "racial theories" inherent to fascism. Rokus01 15:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I hold this as a "yes" to a new subsection "Fascism and the concept of race". Rokus01 21:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I quote: we are not ignorant about fascist ideology, ethnocentrism, and racism. Still I don't see any indepth reference here to the Fascist concept of race. Such a Fascist concept certainly differs considerably to the scientific concept, since it involves nationality rather than anthropology, insinuates psychology rather than physical measurements, adheres to a predefined political stance rather than insight and continuous investigation. There are lots of studies tying fascism to race theory. In other words, this article on Fascism wouldn't be complete without an indepth subsection on race theory. Since all of you are not ignorant, I would like to hear some valid arguments against such a subsection - if any. I mean, you can't be serious in wanting to keep race theory issues out of this article? Are people here working on a redefinition of fascism to make it self-explanatory, or what? Rokus01 19:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hrmmm... Your article says political
liberalism can sometimes cause Fascism. Bollocks, liberalism is against nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, so this page contradicts itself. Conservatism is more likely to cause fascism because it is PRO nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, censorship and of course has one of the biggest aspects for fascism FEAR CAMPAIGING. I bet this will get taken off this talk page because Wikipedia is the fascist encyclopaedia nobody can edit without getting banned.--
124.187.20.197
02:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The strongest state I know is the Soviet one. Nazi Germany was very liberal comparing to the Soviet Union. Xx236 09:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
You misspelled "Encyclopedia." Although wikipedia is mildly fascist, ->They have to be if they want any accurate information on their website<- I wish didn't save my IP adress though that bothers me. But if you disagree with an article on any wiki you have can edit: ETIT IT! Jeez! Oh BTW Stalin is worse than Hitler because at least Hitler's friends were safe. Stalin's friends however were most certainly dead. See ya! 76.19.175.114 ( talk) 23:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.175.114 ( talk) 23:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There have been numerous debates over this matter extending back many months. Please, let's not open this up again. The current wording is already a compromise that overemphasizes the minority viewpoint.-- Cberlet 15:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone want to chime on on which format the cites should take on this page? We need to convert to a single standard. Some sections need more cites inserted (although the books cited at the end of the article already cover most of the text). I personally hate the long cite method, but that's me. Anyone want to adopt a section and find the proper cites?-- Cberlet 12:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is the reference by Paxton included? It's not an informative reference so much as putting fascism down. That reference would be like me going to the page on democracy and saying "democracy is defined by corruption, lack of direction, slow legislative process, etc." The reference doesn't add to this article, it just points out some of the flaws of fascism. JW 00:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Paxton is one of the most important English language scholars of fascism, and he is attempting to offer a definition of fascism. It is absolutely relevant. john k ( talk) 07:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Just an anonymous contributor, but I think something needs pointing out. This article claims fascism is usually understood as nationalistic. Wikipedia defines nationalism as "a doctrine or political movement that holds that a nation—usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture—has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny." And Benito Mussolini, in "The Doctrine of Fascism", which, I think we can agree, is something of an authority on the subject claims that: "In so far as it is embodied in a State, this higher personality becomes a nation. It is not the nation which generates the State; that is an antiquated naturalistic concept which afforded a basis for XIXth century publicity in favor of national governments. Rather is it the State which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity."
This weighty block of text will, I hope, prevent anyone claiming I have taken a soundbite out of context. So there it is: a whole paragraph basically contradicting our definition of nationalism. It seems to claim that nations cannot exist without states (in a nationalist's ideal world, the reverse is true), and that a nation without a state is not in fact a nation (so there goes the ideology of an overwhelming majority of nationalistic revolutions, resistances, political parties and other movements).
Can someone help me solve this without getting cognitive dissonance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.192.125.107 ( talk) 20:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't like George W. Bush very much either, but I don't think there's the same abundance of scholarly evidence to suggest that his government is "most often considered to have been fascist" in the same way as Hitler and Mussolini (second paragraph of the article). The list after that is made up entirely of WWII era movements as well. Certainly many people are unhappy with his administration, but they can hardly be lumped into the same "facist" group as Hitler. Am I alone in thinking this is a little silly? Perhaps this could be somewhere else in the article, but it seems like it shouldn't be in the second paragraph that someone reads. Unquist 16:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
NM. Someone just reverted it. Unquist 16:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... seems to me and many people I've spoken to, that they would define George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their administration as fascist. (From the Wiki page): "Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism"... seems pretty accurate. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.205.234.126 (
talk)
23:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I included George Bush's name in the list of governments thought fascist, because there is an incredible amount of articles examining the possibility - search for 'george bush fascism' on Google Scholar and see what you can uncover. 144.92.120.44 ( talk) 00:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)