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Here's what I've done.
More edits:
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 23:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
— HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 17:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for the constant edits/updates, but I can't do all of this in one sitting.
I'll work more on this later. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Relevant Edits to HelloAnnyong's Edits:
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 22:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Here is a suggestion on the rankings. Instead of just citing those areas where Farmers lagged, saying something like: "Of 26 Auto insurance companies surveyed by JDPower and Associates, Farmers was tied for 20th place." That gives a much truer picture of the overall ranking. I may not like it, just like I don't like citations to individual cases that make it into the news without giving both sides, it is not cherry picking. I still wish the complaint section referenced ratios rather than just absolute numbers, but I can live with it as it is, if need be. Buzzards39 19:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
One last overhaul of the criticism page:
I believe all of the criticisms are stated clearly and without a point of view.
Buzzards: we can add a ranking in if you'd like; that's not too big of a deal to me. As to the lawsuits, I think it would be fair to state the the company's position, if you can find a third-party article that gives their side. I'll try to do that now.
Anyway, I'm hopefully done with the first round of edits. What do you guys think? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 19:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm generally satisfied with most of the revisions, though of the decided opinion that the Consumer Reports cite is still cherry-picked. I have a question about the Lawsuit section. Some of the lawsuits would be notable, such as the overtime pay dispuite, though that issue has also cropped up in many other industries, especially in California. And I am not trying to whitewash criticism. But I see that Router has posted another lawsuit to the section. The nature of the Insurance industry is that there are thousands of lawsuits going on at any one time, many of which are decided in the Insurers favor, and some of which are for large amounts, but they are not notable. They are just disputes over coverage, like the last one posted. Some of these lawsuits cited seem less than notable. The only thing they have in common is that someone mentioned them in the newspaper, to there is a link to cite. So is every large judgement notable? I can see with the overtime suit, and the toxic mold suit was the first of many affecting lots of companies in Texas, but it was the first, so OK. But the ones simply where there is a garden-variety dispute, even though Router googled them and put them in his gripe site, do not seem to rise to the level of uniqueness and notabilty to pass the NPOV test. If they do, then every time Farmers is sued, Router or someone else can just post the link, and it would seem as if Farmers gets sued more than other insurers, which just is not a supportable conclusion. Buzzards39 23:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I updated the Consumer Reports 2004 data and the reference per discussion here. Both Consumer Reports articles are important as one has to do with homeowners insurance and the other about paying off auto claim and both are cited. Router 18:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Question about the magazine cite that was rewritten: The reason that I added it was that the article, written by an uninterested source, singled out Farmers for exceptional service and outreach, CEO being on the spot, etc... As it has been rephrased, it is not notable, since it sounds like Farmers was just one among many, doing what other insurers were doing. If there is an NPOV issue with the original wording, or something closer to it, then the cite should be deleted, since the point I made with the lawsuit cites was that routine mention of the company in media-good or bad-is not notable. How to maintain the point of the cite-that Farmers was doing things above what would be expected and above what other insurers were doing, while not violating NPOV? Buzzards39 19:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Twice now, Reciprocal insurance expert has inserted a bunch of text. I've reverted it for being entirely OR/unsourced. Text such as:
"For reasons that become clear when one studies the matter, the attorneys in fact who run unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchanges do not like the truth that the subscribers own the unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchange being explained to the subscribers. Wikipedia, and Mr. Jimmy Wales in particular, have a history of accomodating lawyers who tell them to suppress ownership information about these insurance exchanges. See the history of the Wikipdia article on another unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchange, USAA."
...is entirely OR, NPOV and disruptive. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe that all the ratings, whether positive or negative, would fit best into its own "Ratings" section overall. The intent is to put more NPOV ratings in instead of trying to collect them as Accolade or Criticism. I may also make edits for grammar, readability, and updating of any broken references. Please leave a message here if you disagree. --15:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Alyssa Hoffel ( talk)
I think this section should be pared down to only to Zurich Financial Services. Since Farmers Insurance is a major part of the Zurich Financial Services company, it warrants being listed in the See Also. The other notes are only somewhat related or have a bias that is not in keeping with NPOV. I'll remove them for now and if anyone has any issues with it, then let's please discuss it here.
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 19:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Farmers have a new logo
Given substantial negative attention on the net (e.g., http://farmersinsurancegroupsucks.com/ ) I would expect some of that to be reflected professionally here...but this page reads like an advertisement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.177.44 ( talk) 23:55, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
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Here's what I've done.
More edits:
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 23:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
— HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 17:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for the constant edits/updates, but I can't do all of this in one sitting.
I'll work more on this later. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Relevant Edits to HelloAnnyong's Edits:
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 22:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Here is a suggestion on the rankings. Instead of just citing those areas where Farmers lagged, saying something like: "Of 26 Auto insurance companies surveyed by JDPower and Associates, Farmers was tied for 20th place." That gives a much truer picture of the overall ranking. I may not like it, just like I don't like citations to individual cases that make it into the news without giving both sides, it is not cherry picking. I still wish the complaint section referenced ratios rather than just absolute numbers, but I can live with it as it is, if need be. Buzzards39 19:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
One last overhaul of the criticism page:
I believe all of the criticisms are stated clearly and without a point of view.
Buzzards: we can add a ranking in if you'd like; that's not too big of a deal to me. As to the lawsuits, I think it would be fair to state the the company's position, if you can find a third-party article that gives their side. I'll try to do that now.
Anyway, I'm hopefully done with the first round of edits. What do you guys think? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 19:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm generally satisfied with most of the revisions, though of the decided opinion that the Consumer Reports cite is still cherry-picked. I have a question about the Lawsuit section. Some of the lawsuits would be notable, such as the overtime pay dispuite, though that issue has also cropped up in many other industries, especially in California. And I am not trying to whitewash criticism. But I see that Router has posted another lawsuit to the section. The nature of the Insurance industry is that there are thousands of lawsuits going on at any one time, many of which are decided in the Insurers favor, and some of which are for large amounts, but they are not notable. They are just disputes over coverage, like the last one posted. Some of these lawsuits cited seem less than notable. The only thing they have in common is that someone mentioned them in the newspaper, to there is a link to cite. So is every large judgement notable? I can see with the overtime suit, and the toxic mold suit was the first of many affecting lots of companies in Texas, but it was the first, so OK. But the ones simply where there is a garden-variety dispute, even though Router googled them and put them in his gripe site, do not seem to rise to the level of uniqueness and notabilty to pass the NPOV test. If they do, then every time Farmers is sued, Router or someone else can just post the link, and it would seem as if Farmers gets sued more than other insurers, which just is not a supportable conclusion. Buzzards39 23:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I updated the Consumer Reports 2004 data and the reference per discussion here. Both Consumer Reports articles are important as one has to do with homeowners insurance and the other about paying off auto claim and both are cited. Router 18:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Question about the magazine cite that was rewritten: The reason that I added it was that the article, written by an uninterested source, singled out Farmers for exceptional service and outreach, CEO being on the spot, etc... As it has been rephrased, it is not notable, since it sounds like Farmers was just one among many, doing what other insurers were doing. If there is an NPOV issue with the original wording, or something closer to it, then the cite should be deleted, since the point I made with the lawsuit cites was that routine mention of the company in media-good or bad-is not notable. How to maintain the point of the cite-that Farmers was doing things above what would be expected and above what other insurers were doing, while not violating NPOV? Buzzards39 19:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Twice now, Reciprocal insurance expert has inserted a bunch of text. I've reverted it for being entirely OR/unsourced. Text such as:
"For reasons that become clear when one studies the matter, the attorneys in fact who run unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchanges do not like the truth that the subscribers own the unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchange being explained to the subscribers. Wikipedia, and Mr. Jimmy Wales in particular, have a history of accomodating lawyers who tell them to suppress ownership information about these insurance exchanges. See the history of the Wikipdia article on another unincorporated reciprocal interinsurance exchange, USAA."
...is entirely OR, NPOV and disruptive. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe that all the ratings, whether positive or negative, would fit best into its own "Ratings" section overall. The intent is to put more NPOV ratings in instead of trying to collect them as Accolade or Criticism. I may also make edits for grammar, readability, and updating of any broken references. Please leave a message here if you disagree. --15:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Alyssa Hoffel ( talk)
I think this section should be pared down to only to Zurich Financial Services. Since Farmers Insurance is a major part of the Zurich Financial Services company, it warrants being listed in the See Also. The other notes are only somewhat related or have a bias that is not in keeping with NPOV. I'll remove them for now and if anyone has any issues with it, then let's please discuss it here.
-- Alyssa Hoffel ( talk) 19:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Farmers have a new logo
Given substantial negative attention on the net (e.g., http://farmersinsurancegroupsucks.com/ ) I would expect some of that to be reflected professionally here...but this page reads like an advertisement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.177.44 ( talk) 23:55, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
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