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This eventually resulted to the sabotage and blast of the Trans-Siberian gas pipeline, compared to a 3-kiloton bomb.
I think this sentence needs to be reworded. Did this really happen? When did it happen? No reference is made to it in the CIA link. Edward 21:57, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Okay maybe it did happen June 1982, Google provides some more sources:
Edward 22:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, and what about this source? [1] C'mon people!
The sole source for the articles you cite - and anything else I can find on the subject - is Thomas C. Reed, who is promoting a book in which he makes these claims. I have not read Reed's book, but at least one reviewer [2] claims that much of it is hearsay and anecdotal. The declassified CIA report, as you note, does not support the claim; for a start it says only defective hardware was supplied, not Trojaned software. I think we need to reword this to make it clear that it's just one guy's claim. Also, BTW, "Farewell Dossier" does not seem to be the name of an operation at all, but a document: the report on Soviet "Line X" espionage prepared by a French agent codenamed FAREWELL. Securiger 07:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This story about the pipeline disaster being due to cunning American counter-intelligence began and ended with Reed's book. It's the old SCADA hoax documented in the Siberian pipeline sabotage article. No other references to this have been given. Note that the citation given in the article is a link to a CIA website article that DOES NOT take responsibility for the pipeline disaster. It reads:
...therefore "flawed turbines were installed on a gas pipeline", but it does not identify the pipeline nor does it say that those flawed turbines were installed on the Trans-Siberian pipeline, nor does it say that they were linked to the pipeline explosion (and we don't even know just which pipeline explosion we're trying to credit the CIA for, anyway). If the CIA is at fault for the pipeline disaster, they have not admitted to it there. Bad citation. I'm deleting the reference to the pipeline disaster until someone finds a reference somewhere. - Eric ( talk) 08:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
The Reed citation is weak, as discussed. The Hoffman citation is a bad link, and the French citation is just a reference to the Reed book. We are still without valid citations. Let's find a valid citation before putting any of this pipeline business back. - Eric ( talk) 08:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, the other CIA citation just quotes the first one, the Fidel Castro (!!) article just references Reed's book, and the NYT article just retells the old fable, referencing only Reed's book, as well. Congratulations, we have an article with NO DECENT citations. - Eric ( talk) 09:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
This article contains far too much detail about what the Cold War was and how it affected US/Soviet Policy. Though it is appropriate for placing the article in context, this can be accomplished much easier through an internal wiki link to Cold War. Djma12 17:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This acticle calls for the detail about the Cold War, becuase because it was the U.S./Soviet diplomacy AND policy that caused the Farewell Dossier and all incidents tied to it to happen. Not to mention that the "Farewell Dossier" was a person, not the actuall Trans-Siberian Pipeline incident.-- Mark D. 01:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"...In the present day, the world is threatened by a devastating economic crisis. The United States government is using unimaginable economic means to defend a right that violates the sovereignty of all the other countries: to keep on buying raw materials, energy, advanced technology industries, the most productive lands and the most modern buildings on the face of our planet with paper money" this is an opinion.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.34.246.37 ( talk) 16:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Who is "Safire"? Referenced several times without introduction nor clarification... MentAl ( talk) 09:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, for the last time: does anybody have a second source for "the greatest non-nuclear explosion ever seen from space"? Anything that doesn't quote Safire or Reed? Any Russian sources saying that there was an explosion? Any seismological measurements? Someone from NORAD actually saying "Yup, we detected something, and it was in the area of the pipeline." Just because everybody keeps quoting that story is not proof it ever happened. Lars T. ( talk) 21:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The energy release seems plausible, but as a fire and not an explosion. 3 kilotons = 1.2x1013 joules. Natural gas burned gives off 3.9x107 joules per standard cubic meter. Big pipelines run at about 100 atm pressure, and have roughly 1 m2 cross section, so it takes about 3 km of pipeline to have enough gas to release this much energy. This would take at least 10 seconds to leak out of even a large failure (speed of sound is 340 m/sec). But to explode, rather than burn, it would all need to be mixed with air at the correct proportion, between 5 and 15 percent - see What is Natural Gas? Natural Gas Properties. If it leaks fast, the area around the leak could not have nearly enough oxygen. If it leaks slowly, the natural gas would rise since it's mostly methane which is lighter than air. So even if there was some ignition source, you'd likely get a big fireball, but not an explosion.
Also, this type is accident is fairly common, just by accident and not sabotage. See, for example, Industrial Control Systems Killed Once and Will Again, Experts Warn . by Ryan Singel. So even if it did happen, an accident could explain it as well. LouScheffer ( talk) 16:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Also, there were several larger conventional explosions set off for nuclear testing purposes by the USA - see Minor Scale or Misty Picture. It would seem extremely odd, bordering on unbelievably stupid, if at least the USA did not watch these from their space based sensors. LouScheffer ( talk) 16:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In the Farewell Dossier article " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Dossier", Vetrov is said to have been executed in 1983 : "he was executed in 1983". In the Vladimir Vetrov article " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Vetrov.", Vetrov is said to have died in 1985 : "10 October 1932 - 23 January 1985" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.245.245 ( talk) 14:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 19, 2011, July 19, 2014, July 19, 2016, and July 19, 2021. |
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This eventually resulted to the sabotage and blast of the Trans-Siberian gas pipeline, compared to a 3-kiloton bomb.
I think this sentence needs to be reworded. Did this really happen? When did it happen? No reference is made to it in the CIA link. Edward 21:57, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Okay maybe it did happen June 1982, Google provides some more sources:
Edward 22:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, and what about this source? [1] C'mon people!
The sole source for the articles you cite - and anything else I can find on the subject - is Thomas C. Reed, who is promoting a book in which he makes these claims. I have not read Reed's book, but at least one reviewer [2] claims that much of it is hearsay and anecdotal. The declassified CIA report, as you note, does not support the claim; for a start it says only defective hardware was supplied, not Trojaned software. I think we need to reword this to make it clear that it's just one guy's claim. Also, BTW, "Farewell Dossier" does not seem to be the name of an operation at all, but a document: the report on Soviet "Line X" espionage prepared by a French agent codenamed FAREWELL. Securiger 07:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This story about the pipeline disaster being due to cunning American counter-intelligence began and ended with Reed's book. It's the old SCADA hoax documented in the Siberian pipeline sabotage article. No other references to this have been given. Note that the citation given in the article is a link to a CIA website article that DOES NOT take responsibility for the pipeline disaster. It reads:
...therefore "flawed turbines were installed on a gas pipeline", but it does not identify the pipeline nor does it say that those flawed turbines were installed on the Trans-Siberian pipeline, nor does it say that they were linked to the pipeline explosion (and we don't even know just which pipeline explosion we're trying to credit the CIA for, anyway). If the CIA is at fault for the pipeline disaster, they have not admitted to it there. Bad citation. I'm deleting the reference to the pipeline disaster until someone finds a reference somewhere. - Eric ( talk) 08:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
The Reed citation is weak, as discussed. The Hoffman citation is a bad link, and the French citation is just a reference to the Reed book. We are still without valid citations. Let's find a valid citation before putting any of this pipeline business back. - Eric ( talk) 08:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, the other CIA citation just quotes the first one, the Fidel Castro (!!) article just references Reed's book, and the NYT article just retells the old fable, referencing only Reed's book, as well. Congratulations, we have an article with NO DECENT citations. - Eric ( talk) 09:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
This article contains far too much detail about what the Cold War was and how it affected US/Soviet Policy. Though it is appropriate for placing the article in context, this can be accomplished much easier through an internal wiki link to Cold War. Djma12 17:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This acticle calls for the detail about the Cold War, becuase because it was the U.S./Soviet diplomacy AND policy that caused the Farewell Dossier and all incidents tied to it to happen. Not to mention that the "Farewell Dossier" was a person, not the actuall Trans-Siberian Pipeline incident.-- Mark D. 01:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"...In the present day, the world is threatened by a devastating economic crisis. The United States government is using unimaginable economic means to defend a right that violates the sovereignty of all the other countries: to keep on buying raw materials, energy, advanced technology industries, the most productive lands and the most modern buildings on the face of our planet with paper money" this is an opinion.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.34.246.37 ( talk) 16:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Who is "Safire"? Referenced several times without introduction nor clarification... MentAl ( talk) 09:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, for the last time: does anybody have a second source for "the greatest non-nuclear explosion ever seen from space"? Anything that doesn't quote Safire or Reed? Any Russian sources saying that there was an explosion? Any seismological measurements? Someone from NORAD actually saying "Yup, we detected something, and it was in the area of the pipeline." Just because everybody keeps quoting that story is not proof it ever happened. Lars T. ( talk) 21:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The energy release seems plausible, but as a fire and not an explosion. 3 kilotons = 1.2x1013 joules. Natural gas burned gives off 3.9x107 joules per standard cubic meter. Big pipelines run at about 100 atm pressure, and have roughly 1 m2 cross section, so it takes about 3 km of pipeline to have enough gas to release this much energy. This would take at least 10 seconds to leak out of even a large failure (speed of sound is 340 m/sec). But to explode, rather than burn, it would all need to be mixed with air at the correct proportion, between 5 and 15 percent - see What is Natural Gas? Natural Gas Properties. If it leaks fast, the area around the leak could not have nearly enough oxygen. If it leaks slowly, the natural gas would rise since it's mostly methane which is lighter than air. So even if there was some ignition source, you'd likely get a big fireball, but not an explosion.
Also, this type is accident is fairly common, just by accident and not sabotage. See, for example, Industrial Control Systems Killed Once and Will Again, Experts Warn . by Ryan Singel. So even if it did happen, an accident could explain it as well. LouScheffer ( talk) 16:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Also, there were several larger conventional explosions set off for nuclear testing purposes by the USA - see Minor Scale or Misty Picture. It would seem extremely odd, bordering on unbelievably stupid, if at least the USA did not watch these from their space based sensors. LouScheffer ( talk) 16:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In the Farewell Dossier article " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Dossier", Vetrov is said to have been executed in 1983 : "he was executed in 1983". In the Vladimir Vetrov article " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Vetrov.", Vetrov is said to have died in 1985 : "10 October 1932 - 23 January 1985" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.245.245 ( talk) 14:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)